Borough Park, NY – A two-week old boy died at a Brooklyn hospital in September after contracting herpes through a religious circumcision ritual that ignited controversy in 2005 after another infant died, the Daily News has learned.
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The unidentified infant died Sept. 28, 2011, at Maimonides Hospital, according to a spokeswoman for the city Medical Examiner, who confirmed the death after a News inquiry.
The cause of death was listed as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.”
City officials declined to comment Friday.
It’s unclear who performed the circumcision.
Under the practice, the rabbi or mohel removes blood from the wound with his mouth — a practice city health officials have criticized, saying it carried “inherent risks” for babies.
Why is this news now?
We are jews. And like other things proven every halacha that hashem gave us regarding our bodies has a health reason behind it. Therefore, so too here it can not be that there are health risks regarding metzitah. Just wait and see that in 10 yrs from now they’ll actually find out health benefits associating with metzitza b’peh
Ohhhhhh noooo….
Is it too much to ask that a Mohel should provide a Doctor’s letter with a monthly health status?
I think not.
Most cheva kadishas use disposable gloves to protect themselves from diseases that might be transmitted. MOst Chevra members get shots for Hepatitus B to protect them selves and their loved ones. The only exceptions are the chasidishe chevras who insist that ‘it was not done in Europe that way’.
Ignoring medical norms is tantamount to murder. Plain and simple.
Another case where chosidim know better than everyone else and continue to live in the Hungarian or Polish shtetl.
I have no words. My son also developed a straph infection on his groin at 2 Weeks old. I don’t know if it was from the mohel or not but it was enough to leave me sick with fear. There must be kosher methods of doing this without exposing a newborn’s weak immune system to these dangerous bugs. A mouth is literally a sewer of various bacterias and viruses. I can’t see how it’s safe to do this.
Newborn babies sadly die b/c of all sorts of reasons to so quickly blame it on this minhag is wrong I will doubt the media’s version unless some better proof is shown.
Metzizeh can have health reason, but it why with the mouth? Do it with a suction cup.
What another attractive thing that will bring so many more jews into the orthodox jewish world. We really should have laws against this. It is always fun being on the other end of a conversation with those who hate circumcision and hearing this as an argument that they can throw at me for not “cutting”. Wow. Great to be a jew in this new extreme jewish world today.
I will still take only a Mohel that does Metzitza B’peh….
Tradition….
Tradition….
For all those who claim to stop metzitzah bpeh in 10 years from now they will demand to stop Milah in shul and only in operating room by a Dr.
Yes the talmud says there is a health benefit to this. However the metzitza can be done with an eye dropper or other implement just as well or better than with a mouth.
To believe that it has to be done with the mouth and that if it’s not done in this specific fashion will not achieve the health benefit is erroneous. Even if you are in the camp which believes the mitzvot have no purpose except for the divine will, this is not a mitzvah d’oraisa, it’s a practical institution.
People who insist that metzitza be peh continue really need to learn some Rambam, and this sentiment illustrates perfectly why this kind of ‘magical thinking’ with regard to mitzvot is so dangerous.
Where in the talmud does it say its for medical reasons?
I was circumcised and to my knowledge the reason it was done to me was because that was God’s will, not because it made me healthy.
its like saying that Stalin outlawed circumcision due to health risks
The mohel should be charged with manslaughter.
If every parent insisted that all mohels present a health certificate proving he was healthy there would not be any more
tragedies.
When the story was with Rabbi Fischer in 2005 it was found that he did not carry Herpes and the baby got it from his mother.
How do we know how and why this boy died
Maybe he came back just to have a real bris
We live with the torah
But the Torah is meaningless
Unless we accept it with the mesorah of our fathers
So the
A child is niftar lo aleinu, you people should do more teshuva and less loshon hora! Shomer the bris in the first place and this won’t happen!
How do we know how and why this boy died
Maybe he came back just to have a real bris
We live with the torah
But the Torah is meaningless
Unless we accept it with the mesorah of our fathers
And the mesorah of our parents tell us to do metitzah bpeh
And if someone dies because of it
It is like Someone dying while doing any other mitzvah
Now for all those who say you can only give up your life
For 3 mitzvahs in the Torah
And metzitzah b peh is not one of them
The answers is simple
That does not apply to a safek
Meaning unless one knows that the mohel for certain has herpes
Only then one can change the halacha
Since life comes before else
But we don’t have that heter
If its a safek
That maybe its herpes from the mohel that’s killing the boys
do a simple search and see that the chasan sofer also said one needs not do metzizah b’ peh with the moth since their is a health risk
When a mohel contracts an infectious disease from a new born I am sure this practice will stop.
It’s sad that all you need to read is one headline–none of you confirmed this, did you?–and you are ready to abandon a integral part of Bris Milah–just like that!
Had you read a headline saying that doctors just finished a study and discovered that two men died from learning too many hours in bais medrash you’d be slamming every learner out there–would you not?
We should be defending Jewish practices, not slamming them. How about if science told us it was seriously unhealthy to wait so many hours between meat and milk. Would chazal also change their mind there? My goodness.
Poster number one has no reasonable halachic position to back up his antediluvian ranting. Sadly he resorts to the method of intellectual defeat and engages in name calling. Mr tweety don’t you dare call anyone an apikoress !!!
this mohel should be arrested for manslaughter and given a long prison sentence,Metzitza Bpeh has absolutely nothing to do with the mitzvah of milah,but it was instituted at the time of CHAZAL,because of the fear that the acumulation of blood after the Bris might endanger the life of the baby,and at that time the only way to get the blood out was by orally removing it,but now that we have instruments that can acomplish the same thing much more efficiently and much more safely
to insist that we ignore the government health warnings and keep doing it by mouth just because our ancsetors did it,borders on insanity
and is nothig but ignorant murderous savagery,this tremendous CHILLUL HASHEM must be stopped immediately
I know that in some hospitals, the clamp they use for the umbilical cord is not sterilized properly and the baby develops a staph infection. If this leaks onto the circumcision it causes an infection similar to herpes and the baby can die due to this untreated infection. This has noting to do with the Rabbi performing the circumcision but with the hospital. Though, hopefully, the Mohel would notice that the unbilical cord has this tiny, minute infection and postpones the circumcison until the infection is gone.
I personally know that they have been on the witch hunt throughout NY for the last 7 years! looking for a story to out law this practice. they got 1… yes 1 and its a story not a fact. I a not saying that a Mohel who is not well should do it b’peh, but the stupidity and kalus rosh of some of you… when it comes to a minhog yisrael that is torah! its very sad, bifrat around purim time. layihudim hoisa sosoin zu milah! for all thoes who are interested in learning more about it and not from some KAL on this forum open up a sdey chemed or call a chasidisher rov or mohel
why not force a mohel to be tested …….what is the big deal……
I decided that people need to become educated in the frum world. The ignorance on this site is beyond shocking. Sometimes I think that I’m reading a blog of an inner city ghetto. The virus that the mohel had was not an STD; it was simplex virus 1 which is cold sores. Herpes that is an STD is simplex 2.
there is a article in the new publication “dialogue” (vol. 1 No.2 Winter 5772)) titled “Is metzitza bepeh dangerous?” written by Dr. Daniel S. Berman M.D. its a very good article and also a very good publication
You are all barking up the wrong tree! Remember it was Maimonides Hospital that made this diagnosis. They have never been right about anything.
The family should demand that the body be rechecked (autopsy)
Why doesn’t everyone just ask their rabbi what they should do when they have a baby and stop whining already. A gut voch to all!
It’s time we took this to our gedolim and got a psak. When I asked my Rav I was told that this may be a good thing but there have been concerns and that I can consult my doctor and follow the doctor’s advice as well (he is a frum guy).
years ago mouth to mouth resusitaion was actually done mouth on mouth…then they invented a device to put between the two mouth…why cant someone invent something for this ? this way the mouth does not actually touch the baby.
please consider the fact that it is possible the mohel caught the herpes from a baby that was infected with it at birth. it is not necessarily the mohel who had it first and passed it to the babies.
I wonder if you guys saying “times have changed” would be able to hold Shabboss in america.
I believe that the mohel would be happy to serve life prison for this Metzitza B’pah.
Would you go to a surgeon who used medicines from the medieval times? Would you take your child to a pediatrician who hadn’t learned anything new in hundreds of years? Would you seek the advice of a doctor who did not use x-rays, antibiotics, MRIs, anesthesia, chemotherapy, or anything else discovered in recent years?
It is sad and scary that supposedly learned people can’t distinguish between halacha & medical advice, the former of which is unchangeable and the latter of which must adapt and evolve.
We now know that snapping your finger 60 times before cutting boils lengthwise and width-wise won’t heal them, drinking cress with vinegar won’t stop the bleeding from a sword, liquid from cooking the kidney of a goat won’t heal ear infections, pigeons don’t cure jaundice, there is no poison in water left uncovered on your kitchen counter, and keeping a knife under the pillow does not prevent demonic rape.
Medical & scientific knowledge continue to advance. Using that knowledge is a mitzvah, not a violation of halacha!
Oh, and if you see someone choking on a bone, try the Heimlich Maneuver or call for help before you place a bone from the same species upon his head while chanting.
shredready i see you are a big talmud chuchem, especially when it comes to trashing the ways of our fathers. They were probably primitive and too immature to adapt to the times, right?
1. It is very early to lay blame. Cold sore viruses could be transferred by anyone who merely kissed the child near his mouth.
2. What happened is horrible. But it is not so simple to undo halachos mentioned in the Gemara. Yes, metzitza b’peh may have been mentioned for health reasons. However many will argue it takes on the status of halacha once it is adopted. For example, we don’t eat fish and meat for halachic reasons. The Rambam and the preponderance of today’s scientific knowledge of the subject holds there is no health reason not to mix the two. However, once it became practice, it became halacha.
Have any children died by having metzitza performed with a tube? Have any kids been rejected or expelled from a yeshiva, or refused a shidduch because their mohel used glass instead of his mouth? When was the last time you told your kid you couldn’t play with yenem because his Nobel used a tube?
I’m willing to go way out on a limb here. One child’s life trumps the value of preserving an antiquated rabbinic custom that has no bearing on the validity of the bris itself. If chassidim want to continue the minhag at the risk of their babies then who are we to fight city hall, these people haven’t discovered dentists yet we’ll convince them to use glass? Waste of time.
One side says this is how it was always done, so even if it started out in the times of chazal because of health reasons, it has become halacha (with special mystical guarantees not to cause harm).
The other side says that if chazal stated the reason for the practice is medical, and not part of the actual din, then if we now learned new things about medicine, chazal wouldn’t want us to follow that practice.
So this brings us back to the old debate that flared up about 7-8 years ago when Slifkin got in trouble. Let’s just say that out loud so we all recognize that’s what this is all about.
Go call your rov, or your hashkafic moreh derech and work this out. Screaming and insulting one another on a blog is useless and makes us look like childish people. We get it, you (both sides) think anyone who doesn’t think like you is either an apikores or uncivilized. Guess what (both sides)? There are other respected poskim who don’t think like you! It’s for everyone (both sides) to realize that you can be true to the derech you were taught and the psak you received and so can the other side.
Some posts here show a lot of ignorance, and some a lot of knowledge.
Fact: The issue of Metzitza BePeh is not a new issue.
Fact: The Chasam Sofer dealt with the issue where it pertained to the transmission of Syphilis.
Fact: Both the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled that Metzitzah is NOT part of the Bris, and it need NOT be done.
Fact: From the reading of the Gemarah and the Poskim: RambaM, Shulchan Aruch , Chasam Sofer, and Rav Moshe, all state that not doing Metzitza is NOT Meakev.
on the other hand.
The apparent rate of of infection and transmission of Herpes simplex 1in children having a ‘traditional’ Bris, is still remarkably low.
I refer everyone here to read Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Shprecher ‘s article on the subject.
(Blaming the umbilical cord, the mother, the hospital is really absurd and speaks to the intellect of some of the posters here.) This is a serious issue, and is one of life and death and requires a frank and unbiased look at the core Halacha vs. Minhag, and relevant health concerns.
Tizku LeMitzvos !!
I attended a bris recently for a pair of identical twins. The grandfather/sandek was a devout Orthodox Jew. He saw the mohel do metzitzah on the first child and he was outraged. He approached him and whispered something that made the mohel turn white as a ghost.
I asked him later what he said. It was “If you do that to my other grandson, I will slit your *-ing throat.”
The grandfather is American born/daf yomi/black hat. Needless to say, the mohel used a pipette on the second child.
those who argue about the reason for metzitzah b peh
Have to understand that besides the open medical reasons behind it
There are also hidden reasons behind it
So even though you might be able to get rid of the open reasons
The hidden reasons still stand
Our Geonim understood these reasons
And paskened that we should not change
I don’t think that people here honestly think that they can go toe to toe
With giants from previous generations
Why is it unclear who performed the circumcision? You’d think there would be an investigation underway to determine whether he infected other boys. Maybe his name just hasn’t been released and the family is keeping mum for the time being.
Why are you all assuming that this baby dies because of metzitza b’peh? Because it said so in the death certificate? It reads: “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.” the Drs have no way of knowing that the mohel was positive because as the article itself states that it is unclear who he is. He was never tested that the dr can’t subjectivly conclude that it was secondary to the ritual act .
All it is is an assumption and the fact that is was written is a legal document as cause of death is absurd and is just proof that there was an agenda to the Dr who wrote it.