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Minnesota - Hebrew National Accused of Being Unkosher

Published on: June 18, 2012 08:56 AM
By: Read more at Twin Cities Planet
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Minnesota - A lawsuit filed in May alleges that Hebrew National, the famous manufacturer of hot dogs and other products throughout the United States, is not living up to its self-proclaimed standard of kosher “as defined by the most stringent Jews who follow Orthodox Jewish Law.”

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Hebrew National products are certified kosher by Triangle K, and a firm called AER provides the kosher slaughtering services at facilities in the Midwest, according to a class action complaint filed last month in the Dakota County district court of Minnesota.

The lawsuit filed against ConAgra Foods, doing business as Hebrew National, a Delaware corporation, alleges that employees of AER complained to their bosses that they witnessed procedures at slaughterhouses that “rendered the meat being processed not kosher.”

AER leased space from American Foods Group, LLC, which brought cattle to its facilities — including the Dakota Premium Foods plant in South St. Paul — “to be slaughtered, inspected and certified.”


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1

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:10 AM kashrus pro Says:

NO ONE from the Tri-K ever claimed Hebrew National was certified as Glatt, in fact they said it wasn't. Granted when they took over the hashgocha from R' Stern a'h they made numerous improvements, but it still wasn't Glatt Kosher.

I read the article further, the part that VIN didn't post, and it seems this is all about disgruntled former employees.

2

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:12 AM UseYourHead Says:

Next they'll sue Poland Spring because the water doesn't come for Poland.

3

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:13 AM shimonyehuda Says:

thought hebrew national was under ou

4

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:16 AM avraham Says:

Oy-Vey, Now I know why I have a "far'shtup'ta kup" (hard head). It's from all those unkosher Hebrew National hotdogs I fressed (gobbled) when I was young. Perhaps we can have a class action suit for that and make some gelt.

5

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:16 AM concerned_Jew Says:

Wouldn't it be great if Hebrew National could get certifed by an Orthodox hechsher liike OU or OK and then many many more people would be able to enjoy their products. But that would really mean following the standards and instructions of a stricter kashrus company and I don't know if the management of Hebrew National would be willing to do that.

6

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Hebrew National is the gold standard of Kashruth for most American Jews and meets or exceeds all the standards used even by the most machmir chassideshe hashgachot. This sounds like the same type of sour grapes by owners and workers at competing Shlachthoises that brought down AgriProcessers and SMR. Hopefully, ADM has deeper pockets and will agressively fight this defamatory legal action.

7

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:44 AM Mark Levin Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Hebrew National is the gold standard of Kashruth for most American Jews and meets or exceeds all the standards used even by the most machmir chassideshe hashgachot. This sounds like the same type of sour grapes by owners and workers at competing Shlachthoises that brought down AgriProcessers and SMR. Hopefully, ADM has deeper pockets and will agressively fight this defamatory legal action.

ADM has NOTHING to do with the company. They are owned by ConAgra. Totally different.

8

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:49 AM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Hebrew National is the gold standard of Kashruth for most American Jews and meets or exceeds all the standards used even by the most machmir chassideshe hashgachot. This sounds like the same type of sour grapes by owners and workers at competing Shlachthoises that brought down AgriProcessers and SMR. Hopefully, ADM has deeper pockets and will agressively fight this defamatory legal action.

Really? Even the rav hamachshir doesn't make that claim. You are DELUDED.

The Triangle-K fought to get in there to at least get it to the point were it was "not treif". Since then they have done even better than that and I give credit for it.

However, to say it "exceeds all the standards used even by the most machmir chassidishe hashgachos" is a flat-out lie and you should be ashamed of yourself. The meat is not even GLATT!

I happen to know someone who works for the rav hamachshir. What he PERSONALLY told me is that he does not eat it because he is machmir on glatt (as am I). However, he says it is certainly not TREIF as some have implied over the years. They rely on every leniency they can find from a reliable source. He has told me that he is involved because there are countless Jews in America who will choose Hebrew National on the store shelf because it LOOKS kosher or because they grew up with it. However, they are not choosing between Hebrew National and A&H or Meal Mart. They are choosing between Hebrew National and chazer! So, better they should eat Hebrew National which at least relies on respected sources, even if they pick and choose.

9

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:46 AM Pint12 Says:

I'm not sure if the hot dog stands are operated by the parent company; but I've seen them on peasach selling hot dogs with chometz buns. I doubt that this would still be called kosher.

10

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:50 AM 12345 Says:

Reply to #5  
concerned_Jew Says:

Wouldn't it be great if Hebrew National could get certifed by an Orthodox hechsher liike OU or OK and then many many more people would be able to enjoy their products. But that would really mean following the standards and instructions of a stricter kashrus company and I don't know if the management of Hebrew National would be willing to do that.

do you realize what an aveira you just did by calling triangle k non_orthodox? Do you your research before you post. If you dont eat a hechsher fine, but dont dare call an orthodox rav non orthodox.

11

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:53 AM Mark Levin Says:

Reply to #3  
shimonyehuda Says:

thought hebrew national was under ou

At one time in history there were Hebrew National poultry products under the OU. That was produced in a separate plant - in Livingston Manor, NY. The beef ops were never OU. They were ALWAYS non glatt.

12

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:57 AM Kashrus Pro Says:

Reply to #5  
concerned_Jew Says:

Wouldn't it be great if Hebrew National could get certifed by an Orthodox hechsher liike OU or OK and then many many more people would be able to enjoy their products. But that would really mean following the standards and instructions of a stricter kashrus company and I don't know if the management of Hebrew National would be willing to do that.

concerned,

It would be nice however it just is not feasible. If they only used glatt kosher meat, they wouldnt have enough to put out a product (the percentage of glatt kosher b'haymos are SIGNIFICANTLY less than kosher but non glatt!) and their prices would increase exponentially, thus putting them out of the market. Give Reb Aryeh Ralbag lots of credit for making takonos there once they took over the hechsher, EVEN if its still non Glatt.

13

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:06 AM shredready Says:

Reply to #9  
Pint12 Says:

I'm not sure if the hot dog stands are operated by the parent company; but I've seen them on peasach selling hot dogs with chometz buns. I doubt that this would still be called kosher.

So according to you if you see a cart selling meal mart frank with
cheese does that mean meal mart is treif?

A company cannot control how a product is used once sold.

The cart are not owned by HN

14

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:27 AM Respect Says:

Reply to #9  
Pint12 Says:

I'm not sure if the hot dog stands are operated by the parent company; but I've seen them on peasach selling hot dogs with chometz buns. I doubt that this would still be called kosher.

Hebrew National doesn't sell buns, those are street vendors who own their own carts and are using Hebrew National hotdogs and branded umbrellas.

15

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
12345 Says:

do you realize what an aveira you just did by calling triangle k non_orthodox? Do you your research before you post. If you dont eat a hechsher fine, but dont dare call an orthodox rav non orthodox.

obviously tht poster is working for the ou or ok, typical.

16

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:

The problem is that all the kosher hotdogs including glatt certified, are full of nitrates/nitrites and separated meat product -- making them one of the worst foods one can eat. Its past time for a glatt kosher hotdog that meets the requirements of today's healthy consumer -- no preservatives, real cuts of beef/chicken, the appropriate spices and herbs instead of chemical flavorings.

17

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM Chacham Bashi Says:

Reply to #10  
12345 Says:

do you realize what an aveira you just did by calling triangle k non_orthodox? Do you your research before you post. If you dont eat a hechsher fine, but dont dare call an orthodox rav non orthodox.

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

18

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:50 AM Miriam377 Says:

Reply to #2  
UseYourHead Says:

Next they'll sue Poland Spring because the water doesn't come for Poland.

If you take a look at a poland spring bottle, it says that it's bottled in poland springs maine.

19

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:08 AM Chacham Bashi Says:

Reply to #10  
12345 Says:

do you realize what an aveira you just did by calling triangle k non_orthodox? Do you your research before you post. If you dont eat a hechsher fine, but dont dare call an orthodox rav non orthodox.

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

20

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:08 AM yaakov doe Says:

Reply to #17  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

Amazing that you know the thoughts of Rabbi Ralbag!

21

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Would have liked to have heard some details in this article as to why Hebrew National is not exactly kosher. I had I think heard before that there was some less than orthodox practice about hebrew national. If you like the product and eat it, its your own decision.

22

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:01 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #13  
shredready Says:

So according to you if you see a cart selling meal mart frank with
cheese does that mean meal mart is treif?

A company cannot control how a product is used once sold.

The cart are not owned by HN

I expected your answer (Or, rhetorical question) to be along those lines, given your early inculcation of Torah education and values in your native, former Soviet-bloc country. But, addressing your answer specifically. Hebrew national has, in the past, awarded signage , to their major vendors which gave the distinct impression to all observers, that the particular facility is --at least partly-- owned by the meat processing firm, even though they were non-observant of the laws of Kashruth, Shabbos and Pesach.
p.s.: If some of the ideas or statements expressed herein, are incomprehensible to you, I have no objection to your utilizing the services of a translator.

23

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:

They answer to a higher authority, the almighty dollar...lol

24

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #14  
Respect Says:

Hebrew National doesn't sell buns, those are street vendors who own their own carts and are using Hebrew National hotdogs and branded umbrellas.

The thrust (Not the biographic details) of my answer to poster #13 (Shredready) apply to your question. I will expand a little on the subject, though. If the impression acquired by a neutral observer (Through ample signage and other banners, much more than a simple sign stating that this vendor is selling a particular product.) is, that a particular facility is owned --albeit partly-- by a Kosher firm, then that firm is responsible for all the pertinent laws to be observed in relation to that establishment.

25

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59 PM Anonymous Says:

I wouldn't trust Hebrew National for kosher on FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLES!!!!

26

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

The problem is that all the kosher hotdogs including glatt certified, are full of nitrates/nitrites and separated meat product -- making them one of the worst foods one can eat. Its past time for a glatt kosher hotdog that meets the requirements of today's healthy consumer -- no preservatives, real cuts of beef/chicken, the appropriate spices and herbs instead of chemical flavorings.

Meal Mart makes Glatties - hotdogs without nitrates. I don't think there's very much else available along these lines in the kosher market.

27

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:21 AM victorg Says:

The proof is in the sliced bread - halacha forbids having bread that is not parve.

A quick look at the bread section of the supermarket shows that triangle k does not adhere to that. So how are they reliable?

28

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:27 PM Respect Says:

Reply to #17  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

I have spoken to MANY rabbanim in kashrus who said that while they would prefer that their kehilos avoid Triangle K on many products (some are acceptable) that b'sha'as hadchak such as if one is stuck out of town and there isn't other food it is acceptable on many more items. I know a number of people who were raised in kosher homes and continue this tradition (even though they have less regard for most other mitzvos) and have been able to get by due to the availability of Hebrew National in their area.

I have been in kashrus and have never encountered a Rav who made the statements you are making. Please be careful when posting regarding a chashuva rav, even if you don't hold of his hechsher.

29

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:38 PM OPElly Says:

Reply to #19  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

A neighbor once opined that the Triangle-K gave a hechsher to bacon. Oh, how I wish I had thought of the appropriate response at the time: "NAME IT!"

I've heard people bash the Triangle-K for decades. But I've never heard anything that backed it up. I applaud the balanced viewpoint of the rav cited in #8: my refusal to eat a particular product doesn't make it treif.

30

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

You are obviously a chacham bashi who has no conscious about the grave sin of motzi shem rah, and spew personal hate to talmidei chachomim as am haratzim usually spew their hatred to Torah.

I personally don’t eat triangle k but that is my decision, like I only eat glatt. But am not as ignorant as you to state that bedieved regular kosher meat is no good.

I dealt many years in kiruv and have seen first hand how unaffiliated Jews in the greater USA would either be eating Oscar Mayer if not for Hebrew national kosher meat. So it’s commendable what the triangle supervision provides.

31

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:52 PM kosher person Says:

Reply to #17  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

i would never eat or drink anything with the TK on it. Motts apple juice is sold in almost all glatt kosher stores. i know some very frum people who purchase it. I however will never buy or drink it due to the fact that the juice is made in the same facility as its clam juice!!!! That doesn't mean that TK isn't frum -it just means that i don't hold by their standards.
HN have always been known to be "kosher-style." Growing up there were lots of HN deli's & restaurants & my parents, not really knowing any better, used to go there quite often & take me with them. One Sunday, my father, AH, went around to the counter to get some ketchup. He saw a worker very plainly drinking coffee & pouring real MILK into his cup (in the 60's they really didn't have too much in non dairy creamers)!! When my father asked the waiter about it, the waiter had the chutzpah to ask my father if he wanted some!!! My father then came over to our table & told us to drop whatever we were holding & we ran out of there!!! HN can never be trusted. (and yes, the store was owned & operated under HN!)

32

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Hot dogs are garbage to eat whether glatt or not.

33

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Stern who gave the hashgocha for Hebrew National for years was an Adom Gadol in Torah but an Adom Katon in Kashrus.
When years ago, Hebrew National was caught soaking meat in hot water, instead of saying it was a mistake, he argued that it was a hiddur.

When the Ralbag's took it over, the reputation of Hebrew National was in the gutter. ConAgra approached the OU but discovered two things:

1. The OU would only certify Glatt.
2. There wasn't enough Glatt in the US to cover Hebrew National's needs. (Yes, they are that big).

So they decided to stay non-Glatt.

Is Hebrew National Kosher - yes beyond a doubt. But ever since the rise of Satmar in the United States, everyone has moved to Glatt.

In the 1950's Reb Yoel was screaming than non-glatt was traif. But it was just the Hugarian Chassidim who held that way.

Over time, people gave in rather than fight.

I assure you, the grandparents of most of the people reading VIN did not keep Glatt. Today however, it is the standard.

There are Yidden who only eat Hebrew National today because it's all they have. But let's not insult them and say it's not kosher.

34

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:43 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #19  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

What you write is LIES. You use carefully selected truths to weave together a lie. How dare you!

There are all sorts of reasons why one hashgocho doesn't accept another and it could be for something completely benign.

Remember when the Vaad of Queens and the Vaad of 5-towns suddenly decided they would no longer accept Rabbi Moshe Soloveichik's hashgocho? Did that make it treif? Did any of us stop using Streit's products? You never know what the real motivation is.

Rav Ralbag is a ehrliche yid and we have no reason NOT to take him at his word that these items are kosher. Those of us who CHOOSE to be more machmir are free to rely on whatever hashgachos we choose.

Rav Ralbag put himself in the line of fire by picking up this job. He fought tooth and nail to get it to where it is. Jews who were unknowingly eating treif are now eating kosher. Your lies and hatred cannot change that.

I, like most people I know, wouldn't eat it unless it were glatt, so it is not for me. But for those who think that anything with a "K" on it is kosher, he is doing a great service for them and should be recognized for his efforts.

35

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Stern who gave the hashgocha for Hebrew National for years was an Adom Gadol in Torah but an Adom Katon in Kashrus.
When years ago, Hebrew National was caught soaking meat in hot water, instead of saying it was a mistake, he argued that it was a hiddur.

When the Ralbag's took it over, the reputation of Hebrew National was in the gutter. ConAgra approached the OU but discovered two things:

1. The OU would only certify Glatt.
2. There wasn't enough Glatt in the US to cover Hebrew National's needs. (Yes, they are that big).

So they decided to stay non-Glatt.

Is Hebrew National Kosher - yes beyond a doubt. But ever since the rise of Satmar in the United States, everyone has moved to Glatt.

In the 1950's Reb Yoel was screaming than non-glatt was traif. But it was just the Hugarian Chassidim who held that way.

Over time, people gave in rather than fight.

I assure you, the grandparents of most of the people reading VIN did not keep Glatt. Today however, it is the standard.

There are Yidden who only eat Hebrew National today because it's all they have. But let's not insult them and say it's not kosher.

Well said, a voice of reason amongst intollerant insanity!

36

 Jun 18, 2012 at 02:20 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #31  
kosher person Says:

i would never eat or drink anything with the TK on it. Motts apple juice is sold in almost all glatt kosher stores. i know some very frum people who purchase it. I however will never buy or drink it due to the fact that the juice is made in the same facility as its clam juice!!!! That doesn't mean that TK isn't frum -it just means that i don't hold by their standards.
HN have always been known to be "kosher-style." Growing up there were lots of HN deli's & restaurants & my parents, not really knowing any better, used to go there quite often & take me with them. One Sunday, my father, AH, went around to the counter to get some ketchup. He saw a worker very plainly drinking coffee & pouring real MILK into his cup (in the 60's they really didn't have too much in non dairy creamers)!! When my father asked the waiter about it, the waiter had the chutzpah to ask my father if he wanted some!!! My father then came over to our table & told us to drop whatever we were holding & we ran out of there!!! HN can never be trusted. (and yes, the store was owned & operated under HN!)

While I don't doubt the facts of your story as you remember them, Hebrew National has never owned any restaurants. They allow restaurants who primarily sell their brand of meats to use their name and logo in advertising and signage, but the company itself has never owned a restaurant and has always stated that they cannot stand behind the kashrus of any 3rd party retailer once the sealed packaging has been opened.

Again, even for those of us who don't eat non-glatt and don't eat the triangle-K, there is no reason to slander this company. More importantly, let's at least give the ehrliche Rav who puts his name on these products the respect he deserves.

37

 Jun 18, 2012 at 02:24 PM Grumpy Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

The problem is that all the kosher hotdogs including glatt certified, are full of nitrates/nitrites and separated meat product -- making them one of the worst foods one can eat. Its past time for a glatt kosher hotdog that meets the requirements of today's healthy consumer -- no preservatives, real cuts of beef/chicken, the appropriate spices and herbs instead of chemical flavorings.

Great idea!!! Now go start a company that sells phony, inedible hotdogs and leave the rest of us alone.

38

 Jun 18, 2012 at 02:46 PM CTJEW Says:

Reply to #12  
Kashrus Pro Says:

concerned,

It would be nice however it just is not feasible. If they only used glatt kosher meat, they wouldnt have enough to put out a product (the percentage of glatt kosher b'haymos are SIGNIFICANTLY less than kosher but non glatt!) and their prices would increase exponentially, thus putting them out of the market. Give Reb Aryeh Ralbag lots of credit for making takonos there once they took over the hechsher, EVEN if its still non Glatt.

To expand upon your remark that if they only used Glatt there would not be enough meat to put out their product>>>>
Until about 18 months ago Costco used Hebrew National Hot Dogs at their food courts nationwide (as well as selling the packaged product). Hebrew National notified Costco that they could no longer supply enough kosher hot dogs to meed Costco's needs. Certainly the average Costco food court customer was not concerned about kosher, just taste.
Even in the non-glatt kosher world there are limits on the amount of kosher schecht raw beef available in the USA. We have a dearth of kosher slaughterhouses and production cannot meet demand. It is time for more decentralized kosher slaughtering to return to the American food processing scene.

39

 Jun 18, 2012 at 03:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
CTJEW Says:

To expand upon your remark that if they only used Glatt there would not be enough meat to put out their product>>>>
Until about 18 months ago Costco used Hebrew National Hot Dogs at their food courts nationwide (as well as selling the packaged product). Hebrew National notified Costco that they could no longer supply enough kosher hot dogs to meed Costco's needs. Certainly the average Costco food court customer was not concerned about kosher, just taste.
Even in the non-glatt kosher world there are limits on the amount of kosher schecht raw beef available in the USA. We have a dearth of kosher slaughterhouses and production cannot meet demand. It is time for more decentralized kosher slaughtering to return to the American food processing scene.

Agreed...there are not enough schlachthoises and good chassideshe shoichtim and mashgichim to go around. A decentralized model where a roving group of chassideshe shoichtim and supervisors would be allow a much larger group of facilities provide the top quality meats that frum yidden demand, even if they could not be there 24x7. It would be as good as Badatz but more more affordable

40

 Jun 18, 2012 at 04:14 PM SF2K1 Says:

Reply to #27  
victorg Says:

The proof is in the sliced bread - halacha forbids having bread that is not parve.

A quick look at the bread section of the supermarket shows that triangle k does not adhere to that. So how are they reliable?

Halacha forbids bread that is dairy if it is not marked in some way as being dairy. In the time of Chazal they marked it on the bread, but maybe writing on the package is sufficient.

41

 Jun 18, 2012 at 05:09 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #40  
SF2K1 Says:

Halacha forbids bread that is dairy if it is not marked in some way as being dairy. In the time of Chazal they marked it on the bread, but maybe writing on the package is sufficient.

Correct. There is room for discussion on this. In the other direction, Briskers wont eat milchig donuts or pastries (e.g Entemanns) because they hold the same Halacah that applies to breads applies to those things as well. But most people dont hold that way. Its a diverse world..

42

 Jun 18, 2012 at 05:14 PM CTJEW Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

Agreed...there are not enough schlachthoises and good chassideshe shoichtim and mashgichim to go around. A decentralized model where a roving group of chassideshe shoichtim and supervisors would be allow a much larger group of facilities provide the top quality meats that frum yidden demand, even if they could not be there 24x7. It would be as good as Badatz but more more affordable

I'm pushing 60. Growing up here in Connecticut there were both kosher slaughterhouses and individual shchtim. My mother could buy live poultry and have the shochet slaughter it. Many a time, my parents would buy a half steer or calf from the slaughterhouse and have it cut for the freezer. Then again, there were a plethora of kosher butchers and we did not buy packaged kosher meat in the supermarket or a self service store. When the kosher consumer still kashered their own meat at home there was a need for local kosher slaughterhouses. We got fresh, kosher, local beef, not boxed beef from a factory in Iowa.
BTW>>>I don't consider 'chassidehe' as a necessary adjective for shochet, this Misnagid would be very happy with a perfectly qualified Litvish Shochet. But I'd still eat Chassideche or Breuer's (KAJ) as well. I want to know it's kosher, I don't buy according to politics.

43

 Jun 18, 2012 at 05:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
SF2K1 Says:

Halacha forbids bread that is dairy if it is not marked in some way as being dairy. In the time of Chazal they marked it on the bread, but maybe writing on the package is sufficient.

Rov Soloveitchik held that anyone who checked a hasgacha would also check the word dairy underneath the hashgacha. That's why the Chof-K and Triangle-K were matir milchig bread.

44

 Jun 18, 2012 at 06:23 PM ShmuelG Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

The problem is that all the kosher hotdogs including glatt certified, are full of nitrates/nitrites and separated meat product -- making them one of the worst foods one can eat. Its past time for a glatt kosher hotdog that meets the requirements of today's healthy consumer -- no preservatives, real cuts of beef/chicken, the appropriate spices and herbs instead of chemical flavorings.

It all comes down to this: if you can convince a few hundred men that it is kdai to pay double to have their hot dogs with your specifications (because I am guessing that doubling the price will be the least that it would take to make a hot dog to your specifications), then surely somebody will make it for you.

45

 Jun 18, 2012 at 03:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Stern who gave the hashgocha for Hebrew National for years was an Adom Gadol in Torah but an Adom Katon in Kashrus.
When years ago, Hebrew National was caught soaking meat in hot water, instead of saying it was a mistake, he argued that it was a hiddur.

When the Ralbag's took it over, the reputation of Hebrew National was in the gutter. ConAgra approached the OU but discovered two things:

1. The OU would only certify Glatt.
2. There wasn't enough Glatt in the US to cover Hebrew National's needs. (Yes, they are that big).

So they decided to stay non-Glatt.

Is Hebrew National Kosher - yes beyond a doubt. But ever since the rise of Satmar in the United States, everyone has moved to Glatt.

In the 1950's Reb Yoel was screaming than non-glatt was traif. But it was just the Hugarian Chassidim who held that way.

Over time, people gave in rather than fight.

I assure you, the grandparents of most of the people reading VIN did not keep Glatt. Today however, it is the standard.

There are Yidden who only eat Hebrew National today because it's all they have. But let's not insult them and say it's not kosher.

Thank you for a rational response. I am a Jew who not only eats non-glatt meat (and non cholov yisroel dairy for that matter) but is offended by those who impose their chumras on the rest of us. Either something is kosher or it is not. If it is kosher, then it is permitted. You do not become holier than another Jew because you impose additional strictures on your practice. We are encouraging obsessive-compulsive behavior that is making the frum world crazy, causing many to go otd, and making the non-frum world disgusted with observance, not encouraged to learn more.

46

 Jun 18, 2012 at 08:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
FredE Says:

Correct. There is room for discussion on this. In the other direction, Briskers wont eat milchig donuts or pastries (e.g Entemanns) because they hold the same Halacah that applies to breads applies to those things as well. But most people dont hold that way. Its a diverse world..

The reason the Brisker and other Chassidus hold that bread cannot be milchig is that in the alte heim, it was the minhag to eat breat with fleish or salted fish most of the time. Such items as pizza and grilled cheese sandwiches were not all that common in Eastern European homes in the 1800s and early 1900s. Thus, there was always a risk that c'v someone might eat a schtick fleish with milchig bread so the rule became not to allow any milchig bread.

47

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:06 PM Italian Says:

I am a little confused here, Glatt only applies to beef, so Hebrew National's chicken products are kosher for orthodox as well, no?

48

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:22 PM MarkTwain2 Says:

Which is more severe: seeing unkosher visuals on the internet or eating these hot dogs?

49

 Jun 18, 2012 at 07:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

There are mainstream Gedolim who disagree with you. They may not eat non-glatt meat, but they will definitely rely on triangle-k for potato chips, cereal, dried fruit, drinks, etc. Making accusations based out of ignorance against a Hashgacha is serious. Don't do it.

50

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:50 PM kashrus pro Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Thank you for a rational response. I am a Jew who not only eats non-glatt meat (and non cholov yisroel dairy for that matter) but is offended by those who impose their chumras on the rest of us. Either something is kosher or it is not. If it is kosher, then it is permitted. You do not become holier than another Jew because you impose additional strictures on your practice. We are encouraging obsessive-compulsive behavior that is making the frum world crazy, causing many to go otd, and making the non-frum world disgusted with observance, not encouraged to learn more.

I am sorry to glean from your post that you proudly eat non-Glatt. I don't know if you will heed my words since I am only a poster on this blog so I strongly urge you to ask questions from a COMPETENT poskek. The FACTS are (I have seem them in my 30 years in the industry!) if the meat is not Glatt, there are other hetayrim used as well, some of them quite questionable to say the least.

I was involved with one of these hetayrim (everyone else called it ASSUR!) with HN in the mid 90s. I hope the Ralbags got rid of that "heter" when they yarshened HN.

51

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:32 PM DovidTheK Says:

Reply to #27  
victorg Says:

The proof is in the sliced bread - halacha forbids having bread that is not parve.

A quick look at the bread section of the supermarket shows that triangle k does not adhere to that. So how are they reliable?

You are wrong. There are exceptions when the bread is a different shape or is small enough that it is eaten in one meal. Therefore you see OUD on Thomas English Muffins

52

 Jun 19, 2012 at 01:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
victorg Says:

The proof is in the sliced bread - halacha forbids having bread that is not parve.

A quick look at the bread section of the supermarket shows that triangle k does not adhere to that. So how are they reliable?

did you ever call up the rav and ask him about you complaint. i personally did a couple of years ago and learned a great lesson from that incident, call and ask. He answered me very simply, the amount of dairy is always less then 1.6 percent of the total formula meaning on all wonderr breads so its always less then shishim and is therefore batul. i asked may one be mevatel lechatchila he answered reb akiva eiger says clearly lehalach in his hagahos on shulchan aruch that a goy can be mevatel lechaticila, and being that this composition is their formula the goy is the one being mevatel it for himself. so halachically its not dairy bread that fallls into the geziro of milchik bread. however he told me that they still write "d' on it even though its not milchiks as a chumra. and besides he added that according to many poskim a "d' on the packaging itself is a clear marking as on bread itself where the gezeira doesnt apply. in addition he mentioned another point something about the shach that its 'whey" and not milk that they add.
i told him many ppl dont know this basis and just think he gives on michike bread. he told me his purpose is a service to provide kosher not have a pr batte

53

 Jun 19, 2012 at 02:02 AM HeshyEmes Says:

Reply to #50  
kashrus pro Says:

I am sorry to glean from your post that you proudly eat non-Glatt. I don't know if you will heed my words since I am only a poster on this blog so I strongly urge you to ask questions from a COMPETENT poskek. The FACTS are (I have seem them in my 30 years in the industry!) if the meat is not Glatt, there are other hetayrim used as well, some of them quite questionable to say the least.

I was involved with one of these hetayrim (everyone else called it ASSUR!) with HN in the mid 90s. I hope the Ralbags got rid of that "heter" when they yarshened HN.

My father A"H was a butcher in the 50's & 60's. When Glatt became prevalent in the 70's, the only people who stayed in the "busser kusher" were unfortunately not frum & as the the market embraced Glatt, non-glatt was left to be run by non Shoimer Shabbos.

Halachically, Glatt is a chumreh that in of itself, would be deemed non-necessary by most poiskem.

54

 Jun 19, 2012 at 03:31 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #17  
Chacham Bashi Says:

When you give a hecsher that is unreliable. That makes your hecsher unorthodox. Triangle K is not accepted by the OU or the OK and all other major hashgochas.

They can't even be relied upon for a potato chip. You want to rely upon them for meat? They are like a mail order hashgochas. If you pay they will give you a hashgocha. As long as it doesn't say pork outright in the ingredients. They don't kasher plants properly. There could be triefes on the same line just hours before you get triangle k canned mandarin oranges.

We need to rid ourselves of Hashgochas that use bedieveds, of bedieveds as their standards for kashrus. Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus. They couldn't care less if people ate kosher or not. Ralbag thinks of those Jews as practically goyim anyways, so he thinks what difference does it make.

"Triangle K is in it for the money, not the kashrus." That may be true, but I believe it is also true of another hashgocha that is considered ultra-reliable here in EY. This hashgocha behaves here like the mafia. I am referring to Badatz-Edah Charedit.

55

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:32 AM 10010 Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Thank you for a rational response. I am a Jew who not only eats non-glatt meat (and non cholov yisroel dairy for that matter) but is offended by those who impose their chumras on the rest of us. Either something is kosher or it is not. If it is kosher, then it is permitted. You do not become holier than another Jew because you impose additional strictures on your practice. We are encouraging obsessive-compulsive behavior that is making the frum world crazy, causing many to go otd, and making the non-frum world disgusted with observance, not encouraged to learn more.

AT LAST!!! Someone with a tipat seichel.

56

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:42 AM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #40  
SF2K1 Says:

Halacha forbids bread that is dairy if it is not marked in some way as being dairy. In the time of Chazal they marked it on the bread, but maybe writing on the package is sufficient.

"In the time of Chazal they marked it on the bread"

What a ridiculous assertion!

In the time of Chazal each and every בעלת הבית made her own bread, so there was absolutely no need for "marks", either on or off the loaves.

Aside from that, "in the time of Chazal" Jews trusted one another more. Anyone found not to be keeping a kosher kitchen and home would be swiftly ostracized in his/her community. Gossip spreads fast, so the repercussions of eating something treif would be swift.

57

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:58 AM Bournemouth Bochur Says:

Reply to #40  
SF2K1 Says:

Halacha forbids bread that is dairy if it is not marked in some way as being dairy. In the time of Chazal they marked it on the bread, but maybe writing on the package is sufficient.

I have found this thread both instructive (most threads on VIN usually are) and amusing.

I am amused, not by any petty bickering and posturing that might be going on, but by the fact that no one has taken in the plight of small Jewish communities and those communities' problems in obtaining even the basics of kosher food.

ק"ק בורנמוט, in my youth, was a prosperous seaside resort on the English south coast with a thriving Jewish community of ~450 families. There were many Jewish hotels, all strictly kosher, which bought their meat from one or other of the town's three kosher butchers.

Fashions in vacationing change, and all but one of the Jewish hotels have gone. The kosher butchers have closed up shop too, which leaves Jewish Bournemouthians without a local place to buy their meat.

The local shuls (Wootton Gardens and the newish Chabad shul) have their own "shops", but buying fresh kosher meat remains a serious problem. I used to drive to London to bring back enough meat to fill my freezer, but - like all of us - I am ageing and I do not know for how much longer I can make the trip.

Always be thankful for what you have got in terms of כשרות! Some no longer can.

58

 Jun 19, 2012 at 09:59 AM Bournemouth Bochur Says:

As an afterthought to my earlier message (it's the age creeping up on me!) I should have mentioned that the three Bournemouth kosher butchers, in turn, bought their meat from an abattoir ('shlecht hois') that belonged to the Bournemouth Hebrew Congregation, and that the abattoir gave employment to two shochetim who doubled up as חזנים, בעלי קריאה ומוהלים

One of them, R' Yisrael Cohen ז"ל, also taught in the shul cheder. He once lost his temper with one of my sons, who was misbehaving. R' Yisrael said to my boy, "I shechted 150 chickens today. Don't think for a single moment I will stop there if you will not behave!"

The abattoir has long gone, as have the two positions for שוחתים, which has given rise to the fact that if a Bournemouth Jew wants to eat even a simple kosher sausage he must buy it in London. As I wrote before, American yidden simply do not know how lucky they are.

59

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:27 AM Berl Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

The problem is that all the kosher hotdogs including glatt certified, are full of nitrates/nitrites and separated meat product -- making them one of the worst foods one can eat. Its past time for a glatt kosher hotdog that meets the requirements of today's healthy consumer -- no preservatives, real cuts of beef/chicken, the appropriate spices and herbs instead of chemical flavorings.

As a yeshiva bochur learning yoreh deah hilchos treifos, our maggid shiur (instructor) took us to a shlacht hoiz (slaughter house) to see first hand, this was before the advent of seforim with colored pictures etc. One of the bochrim had a bad cold and saw a pile of disgusting looking meat on the floor in a heap. He spit a chunk of plegm into it thinking it was garbage. One of the workers came running yelling and cursing saying that was meat that was going to be made into hot dogs, another worker told him to calm down, it could be washed off. From that day on I lost my chayshek (desire) to eat hot dogs and cold cuts

60

 Jun 19, 2012 at 02:04 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Thank you for a rational response. I am a Jew who not only eats non-glatt meat (and non cholov yisroel dairy for that matter) but is offended by those who impose their chumras on the rest of us. Either something is kosher or it is not. If it is kosher, then it is permitted. You do not become holier than another Jew because you impose additional strictures on your practice. We are encouraging obsessive-compulsive behavior that is making the frum world crazy, causing many to go otd, and making the non-frum world disgusted with observance, not encouraged to learn more.

What you say here is VERY dangerous.

You said "either something is kosher or it is not". The problem is, WHO says it is kosher. You can find CHAZER, yes CHAZER with a "K" on it. Someone took a picture in a store and emailed it to me. I couldn't believe it. The issue will always be WHO says it is kosher and WHOM you will trust those decisions to.

I can't tell you how many conversations I have with families who say "they can't call it kosher if it isn't". This accounts for delicatessens and other restaurants all over the country claiming to be kosher, but you can buy meat sandwiches with cheese on them. Why do they claim to be "kosher"? They don't serve pork.

One must be very careful to understand WHO says a product is kosher and to know full-well what that person or organization stands for and whether or not you trust them with such an important thing. Just remember, in most parts of the country, ANYONE can call ANYTHING kosher. There is no law to protect you.

61

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:54 PM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #60  
PMOinFL Says:

What you say here is VERY dangerous.

You said "either something is kosher or it is not". The problem is, WHO says it is kosher. You can find CHAZER, yes CHAZER with a "K" on it. Someone took a picture in a store and emailed it to me. I couldn't believe it. The issue will always be WHO says it is kosher and WHOM you will trust those decisions to.

I can't tell you how many conversations I have with families who say "they can't call it kosher if it isn't". This accounts for delicatessens and other restaurants all over the country claiming to be kosher, but you can buy meat sandwiches with cheese on them. Why do they claim to be "kosher"? They don't serve pork.

One must be very careful to understand WHO says a product is kosher and to know full-well what that person or organization stands for and whether or not you trust them with such an important thing. Just remember, in most parts of the country, ANYONE can call ANYTHING kosher. There is no law to protect you.

"Someone took a picture in a store and emailed it to me. I couldn't believe it."

You were absolutely right in not believing it as it was a total falsehood. Your friend did not take the picture, but rather took it off the internet.

That picture circulated, if I remember correctly about 15-18 months ago, and showed some pre-packaged pork with a printed price tag saying "cosher (not "kosher") Beit Yosef", or something very similar.

It was easily proved that the whole thing was a hoax and that the picture of the meat (which *was* treif, BTW), together with its price tag had been Photoshopped.

62

 Jun 19, 2012 at 09:55 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #61  
Avreich1 Says:

"Someone took a picture in a store and emailed it to me. I couldn't believe it."

You were absolutely right in not believing it as it was a total falsehood. Your friend did not take the picture, but rather took it off the internet.

That picture circulated, if I remember correctly about 15-18 months ago, and showed some pre-packaged pork with a printed price tag saying "cosher (not "kosher") Beit Yosef", or something very similar.

It was easily proved that the whole thing was a hoax and that the picture of the meat (which *was* treif, BTW), together with its price tag had been Photoshopped.

No. It was a "box of pasta with a sauce mix which advertised "made with real bacon". The person who took the picture was a friend of a friend. But thank you for telling me what I saw. Dummy.

63

 Jun 20, 2012 at 01:37 AM MONTREALYID Says:

My late Dad was a kosher butcher here in Montreal for close to 40 years. At the time the Vaad Hair was run by people who cared about kashrus to a point.

They also understood that people had to eat.

Most kosher meat sold at that time was non glatt but 100% kosher.

Today we have the uber orthodox or as I call them the orthoquack who are so pathetic in their outlook towards Jewish life that they will cross oceans to eat "GLATT KOSHER" but will engage in envy spite and ridicule.

Grow up and stop the nonsense. Eat, be happy and try to live an honest life.

64

 Jun 20, 2012 at 05:34 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #63  
MONTREALYID Says:

My late Dad was a kosher butcher here in Montreal for close to 40 years. At the time the Vaad Hair was run by people who cared about kashrus to a point.

They also understood that people had to eat.

Most kosher meat sold at that time was non glatt but 100% kosher.

Today we have the uber orthodox or as I call them the orthoquack who are so pathetic in their outlook towards Jewish life that they will cross oceans to eat "GLATT KOSHER" but will engage in envy spite and ridicule.

Grow up and stop the nonsense. Eat, be happy and try to live an honest life.

Spite and ridicule were there in the old days too. At least Kashrut standards have been elevated. The mafia isn't as involved as they once were..

65

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