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Jerusalem - Female Officers Warn Of Mass Haredi Draft Into IDF

Published on: June 18, 2012 09:14 AM
By: Read more at Ynetnews
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Israeli Soldiers from the ultra orthodox brigade (Nahal Haredi), during a morning pray, 17 February 2010. EPA/ABIR SULTANIsraeli Soldiers from the ultra orthodox brigade (Nahal Haredi), during a morning pray, 17 February 2010. EPA/ABIR SULTAN

Jerusalem - Some 20 female officers, including high ranking reservists, sent a letter to the Plesner Committee, tasked with finding alternatives to Tal Law and regulating haredim’s military service, warning that the mass recruitment of ultra-Orthodox soldiers will have an adverse effect on women serving in Israel’s armed forces.

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The letter, sent to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Deputy PM Shaul Mofaz, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and the Committee Chairman MK Yohanan Plesner (Kadima), said that such a move would eventually increase the exclusion of women in the military and infringe on their rights.


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1

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:21 AM Anonymous Says:

No...it will do just the opposite and provide these chareidi bochurim with better social skills and understanding of the equal rights of men and women under Israeli law. They will have to learn to accomodate their religious rights and beliefs with the equally important rights of women. Its a win/win for both sides and will have benefits for these bochurim long-after their military service as they will treat Israeli women with more understanding and respect.

2

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:23 AM R Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha and all of the (real) gedolim who held its from the 3 cardinal sins which one must give up his/her life. But if they get the chareidim exempt, let then go right ahead.

3

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:48 AM Solomon Says:

Regarding this objection of the high ranking female reservists in the IDF, I will quote what the late Rodney King once stated:

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!

4

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:31 AM Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Reply to #2  
R Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha and all of the (real) gedolim who held its from the 3 cardinal sins which one must give up his/her life. But if they get the chareidim exempt, let then go right ahead.

Please forward a list of all "real" gedolim; i'm particularly interested in the criteria used and who didn't make the list.

5

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:48 AM MyNachas Says:

Hmm, Chareidim don't want to join. The female officers don't want them there. The army can't afford to employ the sheer number of them. The secularists despise them. The Gedolim think they shouldn't be there either. Well gosh darn it, I think this was a well thought out plan. On another note: Kudos IDF, you've already repulsed us by celebrating gay pride. All you need to do now is to kick out the residents of Bet El and you've made us all proud.

6

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:24 AM ALTERG Says:

Waste of time, the jewish buchrim will anyway not gane join the army not a diffrent witch law they will make they belong in yeshiva, & this 20 female soliders you also don't belong there just go get marreid & have kids like all the women in the all world

7

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:20 AM Yipyap Says:

I perosnally think its not with in the realm of Tznius to have female officers who boss around these male yiddish neshama's who are, unfortunatly, serving in the army

8

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:

To Alter G(#6) and YipYap(#7) (and other closet misogynists).

EY doesn't have the luxury of fighting wars with armies 10x larger and tell 1/2 their population that they cannot serve because some frightened and selfish charedim are nervous about the "neshamas" and fearful about matter of tzinisudik should they have to c'v, "take orders" from a woman officer. This is a complex issue and will require compromise on both sides to work, but its feasible and necessary for the security and defense of the medinah to have EVERYONE participate in some capacity.

9

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:03 AM bigwheeel Says:

This is a catch-22 situation. The Israeli Gov't, via the Plessner Commission, wants to enlist yeshiva bochurim in great numbers into the army. The members of the IDF, (Not just the female officers) don't want them there. They're damned if the do and damned if they don't.

10

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:10 AM r Says:

Reply to #4  
Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Please forward a list of all "real" gedolim; i'm particularly interested in the criteria used and who didn't make the list.

Um...maybe like the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, the Brisker Rav, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the list is endless, the biggest gedolim, to the exclusion of some modern enlightened (safek religious) rabbis who bend the rules of the Torah according to secular ideas.

11

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
R Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha and all of the (real) gedolim who held its from the 3 cardinal sins which one must give up his/her life. But if they get the chareidim exempt, let then go right ahead.

cardinal sins is a goyshe concept.

12

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:07 PM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #4  
Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Please forward a list of all "real" gedolim; i'm particularly interested in the criteria used and who didn't make the list.

I wonder if the list requested by Trolly_McTrollerston would match up with the list published recently by Forbes Israel?

13

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #5  
MyNachas Says:

Hmm, Chareidim don't want to join. The female officers don't want them there. The army can't afford to employ the sheer number of them. The secularists despise them. The Gedolim think they shouldn't be there either. Well gosh darn it, I think this was a well thought out plan. On another note: Kudos IDF, you've already repulsed us by celebrating gay pride. All you need to do now is to kick out the residents of Bet El and you've made us all proud.

I will not take issue with MyNachas's post, apart from the last sentence.

The IDF High Command can not and will not make a decision to evict anyone from anywhere. That order would come from the political echelon, i.e. the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense.

14

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:19 PM rebbe123 Says:

Reply to #4  
Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Please forward a list of all "real" gedolim; i'm particularly interested in the criteria used and who didn't make the list.

Is the chazon Ish real godol enough for u?

15

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:27 PM OPElly Says:

Reply to #10  
r Says:

Um...maybe like the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, the Brisker Rav, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the list is endless, the biggest gedolim, to the exclusion of some modern enlightened (safek religious) rabbis who bend the rules of the Torah according to secular ideas.

Now that you've listed some gedolim who oppose women's military service, I'm curious about who the "modern enlightened" rabbis are--and how you justify calling them "safek religious."

And which of the three cardinal sins for which one must give up his/her life would be violated? Avodah zarah doesn't seem to fit. Neither does retzicha: killing an enemy in battle wouldn't apply. That leaves gilui arayos; are you assuming that will happen?

16

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Thank you feminists for helping keep yeshiva boys out of the secular Israeli army. We need yeshiva boys in the yeshiva not in the army. Today thirty per cent of the army is actually not Jewish. So G-d will find others to serve in the army as well as work for us if we sit and learn and live by the Torah.

17

 Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59 PM mogenavrochom Says:

Reply to #2  
R Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha and all of the (real) gedolim who held its from the 3 cardinal sins which one must give up his/her life. But if they get the chareidim exempt, let then go right ahead.

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha....
Question:
where does it say in Halacha ?
Please give the exact quote....

18

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:03 PM favish Says:

Reply to #4  
Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Please forward a list of all "real" gedolim; i'm particularly interested in the criteria used and who didn't make the list.

chazon ish, brisker rav, vayouel moshe, chelakas yachov, munchas yitzchak, yblch shevat halevi etc etc etc etc. the likes of lhavdil alex shindle, yoffin, MO rabbis we dont count(im hurave dome lmalach hashem tzevous yevakshu torah.... which they are not)

19

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:34 AM jackr Says:

Reply to #2  
R Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha and all of the (real) gedolim who held its from the 3 cardinal sins which one must give up his/her life. But if they get the chareidim exempt, let then go right ahead.

Fakert, maybe if all the Chareidim served, the women could stay home

20

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:38 PM favish Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

cardinal sins is a goyshe concept.

cardinal sins means the 3 sinds that are 'yeharag val yavor' and thats termed in Your lang. cardinal sins

21

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:46 PM georgewashingtonbridge Says:

How about, for each chareidi enlistee, we send a female army officer to sit in yeshiva and learn? Then everyone will be equally ticked off, and we will have achieved true equality.

22

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:50 PM a nelson Says:

the feminashenazis are the first to jettison yiddishkeit and become yordim , so it will only be a short term problem.

23

 Jun 18, 2012 at 01:48 PM si girl Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

No...it will do just the opposite and provide these chareidi bochurim with better social skills and understanding of the equal rights of men and women under Israeli law. They will have to learn to accomodate their religious rights and beliefs with the equally important rights of women. Its a win/win for both sides and will have benefits for these bochurim long-after their military service as they will treat Israeli women with more understanding and respect.

I agree with you 100%. We all wish that women would not have drafted only as voluteers. this is not the case because of necessity. Heredim need to be drafted to prform their civil duties, obtain social skills and occupations and work.

24

 Jun 18, 2012 at 02:07 PM luv_pancake Says:

Reply to #15  
OPElly Says:

Now that you've listed some gedolim who oppose women's military service, I'm curious about who the "modern enlightened" rabbis are--and how you justify calling them "safek religious."

And which of the three cardinal sins for which one must give up his/her life would be violated? Avodah zarah doesn't seem to fit. Neither does retzicha: killing an enemy in battle wouldn't apply. That leaves gilui arayos; are you assuming that will happen?

you are mixing up the 3 worst sins (which are the ones you mentioned in your post) and the 3 shvuot that you have to give up your life for rather than violate them. which is going to war against a group of gentiles, claiming and building up a state and the last one slipped my mind but these 2 should be enough to prove to you that they violated the torah in every possible way and whoever is supporting and encouraging them is playing a part in their sin and will have to give din v'cheshbon when the time comes
and then again... to all satmar bashers out there.... by saying that i am not justifying what satmar is doing with all those courtcases and stuff. but, as they so rightfully say, two wrongs don't make one right....

25

 Jun 18, 2012 at 02:14 PM R Says:

Reply to #17  
mogenavrochom Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha....
Question:
where does it say in Halacha ?
Please give the exact quote....

Um...maybe do some research before posting. The chazon ish along with all gedolim of e"y and America ruled that women may not go in the army even if they will be killed for not doing so. Old news. It comes from the Gemara rishonim and shulchan aruch who say that anything with even a speck of Arayus is יהרג ואל יעבור. Look up the facts before presenting opinions.

26

 Jun 18, 2012 at 02:46 PM LebidikYankel Says:

Reply to #17  
mogenavrochom Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha....
Question:
where does it say in Halacha ?
Please give the exact quote....

"Lo t'hiye klei gever al isha" which the Targum explains refers to bearing arms.

27

 Jun 18, 2012 at 03:29 PM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

cardinal sins is a goyshe concept.

Cardinal Sin was also an Archbishop of Manila. I used to laugh out loud every time I saw his name in the newspapers.

28

 Jun 18, 2012 at 04:25 PM FredE Says:

So now we have a situation where women who devote years of their lives at great personal costs to protect the country are derided and their morality defamed. Lovely.
Those of you who do so should be ashamed of yourselves.

29

 Jun 18, 2012 at 06:40 PM Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Reply to #10  
r Says:

Um...maybe like the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, the Brisker Rav, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the list is endless, the biggest gedolim, to the exclusion of some modern enlightened (safek religious) rabbis who bend the rules of the Torah according to secular ideas.

you totally sidestepped the question and went with a safe answer
If you want to be provocative you better be able to stand behind your words!

30

 Jun 18, 2012 at 03:45 PM sane Says:

Reply to #7  
Yipyap Says:

I perosnally think its not with in the realm of Tznius to have female officers who boss around these male yiddish neshama's who are, unfortunatly, serving in the army

If chareidim are fast becoming a large percentage of the population and they are all exempt, then who exactly will fight in the army? Do you suggest that an army is not needed?

31

 Jun 18, 2012 at 09:10 PM MarkTwain2 Says:

Move all the kollels and yeshivas to the Egyptian border (army exemption thus conditionally granted) and instruct them to send their meshulachim only to Egypt. All problems solved.

32

 Jun 18, 2012 at 07:30 PM menachemwh Says:

Reply to #2  
R Says:

Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha and all of the (real) gedolim who held its from the 3 cardinal sins which one must give up his/her life. But if they get the chareidim exempt, let then go right ahead.

joining the army is one of the 3 cardinal sins? OMG are you kidding me? all real gedolim?

33

 Jun 18, 2012 at 10:02 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

cardinal sins is a goyshe concept.

But this is the only term that describes the concept "עבירות חמורות" הארבע עבירות in English.

34

 Jun 18, 2012 at 11:50 PM savtat Says:

It occurs to me that having soldiers who won't follow orders ( from a woman or man) could be very problematic. As far as I know, there are no mixed gender units. The question seems to be about whether a woman officer would be able to give an order to someone who is not in her unit - maybe she has a position in intelligence or something like that. Combat units are not mixed units. Why exactly could a chareidi man not take an order from a female officer?

If the mayor is a woman - he can't follow her orders either?

How about if his mother or wife is a female - he can't listen to her either? Come on, this has nothing to do with gender - this has to do with getting out of your responsibilities.

35

 Jun 19, 2012 at 03:16 AM Naftush Says:

Reply to #26  
LebidikYankel Says:

"Lo t'hiye klei gever al isha" which the Targum explains refers to bearing arms.

Problem solved! Where else do we pasken from the Targum?

36

 Jun 19, 2012 at 03:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

Thank you feminists for helping keep yeshiva boys out of the secular Israeli army. We need yeshiva boys in the yeshiva not in the army. Today thirty per cent of the army is actually not Jewish. So G-d will find others to serve in the army as well as work for us if we sit and learn and live by the Torah.

Throughout history thinkers have struggled to determine the nature of G-d ... until now. You've solved it -- He's a draft board!

37

 Jun 19, 2012 at 04:57 AM bewhiskered Says:

"Women should not be in the army. It's clear from Halacha..... But if they get the chareidim exempt, let then go right ahead."

First you say that women in the army is כנגד הלכה. And then, you say that as long as it gets חרדי men exempt, 'let them (women) go right ahead (join the army).' But, what has happened to your הלכה? Do your own ears hear what your mouth is saying?

38

 Jun 19, 2012 at 06:32 AM Antwerpjew Says:

Arizal says that the 3 shavous goes on the first 1000 years of the Galus,its long over !!!

39

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:23 AM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #34  
savtat Says:

It occurs to me that having soldiers who won't follow orders ( from a woman or man) could be very problematic. As far as I know, there are no mixed gender units. The question seems to be about whether a woman officer would be able to give an order to someone who is not in her unit - maybe she has a position in intelligence or something like that. Combat units are not mixed units. Why exactly could a chareidi man not take an order from a female officer?

If the mayor is a woman - he can't follow her orders either?

How about if his mother or wife is a female - he can't listen to her either? Come on, this has nothing to do with gender - this has to do with getting out of your responsibilities.

You might not know, savtat, and there is no reason why you should unless you live in Israel, that a large number of female military personnel are involved in battle training.

This includes women instructors in the Tank School, actually teaching the men how to drive and to maintain tanks and armored personnel carriers. In the course of my (prolonged) military career I saw female instructors in many other "front line" military occupational specialties (MOS), including artillery, intelligence and parachuting.

The rationale for this is that, by so doing, many more males are freed up for actual combat duties.

Answering your questions: yes, the male troops do accept orders from women -- and heaven help them if they do not! Yes, there are "mixed gender units" (see above), but living quarters always have (and always will) be kept strictly separate.

Needless to say, I support your last sentence to the very last letter.

40

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:28 AM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #32  
menachemwh Says:

joining the army is one of the 3 cardinal sins? OMG are you kidding me? all real gedolim?

I used to laugh at the fact that the late Cardinal Sin was once Archbishop of Manila. He was of Chinese origin.

What a name for a so-called "prince of the church". At least his first name, Jaime, was pronounced חיים!

41

 Jun 21, 2012 at 12:00 PM palmtights Says:

Reply to #26  
LebidikYankel Says:

"Lo t'hiye klei gever al isha" which the Targum explains refers to bearing arms.

what if its for self protection?

42

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