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Jerusalem - In Photos: Thousands Rally Against Drafting Of Yeshiva Students To Army

Published on: June 25, 2012 12:38 AM
Last updated on: June 25, 2012 09:18 AM
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Ultra-Orthodox man (C) wearing burlap, as a sign of mourning as thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012.  EPA/ABIR SULTANUltra-Orthodox man (C) wearing burlap, as a sign of mourning as thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012.  EPA/ABIR SULTAN

Jerusalem - Thousands of people from the ultra-Orthodox community gathered in Jerusalem’s Mea Shearim neighborhood in the early hours of Monday morning to protest against plans to draft haredim into national service.

Police estimated that at least five thousand men, women and children turned out at Kikar Shabbat, where leading rabbis of the anti-Zionist Edah Haredit organization led impassioned prayers to “avert the decree of army enlistment.”

Among the rabbis who attended the event: Toldos Aharon Rebbe, The rabbi of Eidah HaCaredit Rabbi Tuvia Weiss , Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach , Rabbi Mosha Sternbuch, Rabbi Moshe Tzdokah.

“We are the true soldiers of the Jewish people,” said Rabbi Moshe Shternbach, head of the Edah Haredit’s rabbinical court, of the thousands of haredim studying in yeshivot. “A soldier who abandons his post is considered a traitor, and so to with us it is forbidden to leave one’s post.”

“The Zionists expelled the Arabs from the Land of Israel, what right do they have to disturb those who study Torah?” continued Shternbach. “The only merit we have to be in this place is the merit of Torah and mitzvot, yet this they want to take from us.”

The highest authority of the Edah Haredit, Rabbi Tuviah Weiss, also addressed the crowd, telling parents not to despair and not to be afraid of the forces of the state.

“We will not allow them to take yeshiva students to the army or the police,” said Weiss. “It is incumbent on us to give up our lives and not to stray from the path. This is our task, to teach our children the value of self-sacrifice for the sake of the Torah.”

Weiss added that ideas proposed such as integrating Torah study with military service are also unacceptable.

Also present at the demonstration was one of the most senior rabbis of the mainstream haredi community, Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach.

“We have to give up our lives against a decree which is part of our existence,” he declared. “It’s not possible that they will enter the world of Torah with compromises of quotas [for the number of yeshiva students exempt from national service], or that they can tell us who is an exceptional student [who can get an exemption] and who has to enlist. We can’t give them a foot in the door in our place.”

The Eda Haredit leaders who were assembled on a platform overlooking the square led traditional mourning prayers typically said on fast days and times of distress for the Jewish people, and the shofar was blown intermittently during the various prayers and supplications.

Some of the rabbis and crowd members wore sackcloth draped over their clothes, and small sachets of ashes were handed which the demonstrators sprinkled on themselves as a sign of mourning.

Ultra-Orthodox man wearing burlap , as a sign of mourning as thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)Ultra-Orthodox man wearing burlap , as a sign of mourning as thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government’s intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)
Some of the thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)Some of the thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government’s intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)
Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government’s intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)
Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government’s intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)
Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government’s intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)
Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government’s intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)
Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government's intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews participate in a prayer rally and protest in the neighborhood of Mea Shearim in Jerusalem against the government’s intention to recruit Yeshiva students to the army and civil service, on 25 June 2012. (Credit: EPA)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012. (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)
Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem's Shabbat Square in opposition of the government's plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)Thousands of haredim holding a prayer rally in Jerusalem’s Shabbat Square in opposition of the government’s plan to start drafting yeshiva students into military and national service on June 25,2012.  (Credit: Flash90)

Photo Credit: Shmuel Ben Yishai for News 24


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2

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:38 AM shlomozalman Says:

Sad to see Rav Shmuel Auerbach on the list. Unfortunately, he is deeming himself irrelevant as a possible future leader.

3

 Jun 25, 2012 at 05:58 AM enlightened-yid Says:

I never understood why they wear potato sacks when they protest against something?

4

 Jun 25, 2012 at 06:23 AM menachemwh Says:

This is so wrong on so many levels. Using a pasuk from Esther giving the feeling that the country they live in, that supports their lifestyle is asking them to contribute something in return is the kingdom of haman. What Torah are these so called gedolim teaching? Their dress bemoan their desire to continue a life style of being supported by a government they despise asking other citizens to sacrifice their children so that they could sit and offer nothing in return. Demonstrate in a manner that gives pride to Torah. Explain to me why my child should defend your existence. Why my child must stand guard at the border in the cold of the night and heat of the summer afraid this will be his last. When I see these pictures I am ashamed that you are my brother.

5

 Jun 25, 2012 at 06:45 AM GEULA Says:

wow wow!!!!! hashem yaazor that this gzeira will be mevutal.

6

 Jun 25, 2012 at 06:49 AM Mordechai Says:

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words. I think it is inappropriate to wear sackcloth. Joining the army is not a black and white issue that is against the Torah, indeed there is the case of Milchemes Rishus that everyone must join. It is no wonder why the average Israeli think very low of Frum Yidden. But what is more supprising is that fact that important Rabbonim joined. Going in to the army does not cause you to give up one iota of Yiddishkiet, and it is possible to keep Yiddishkiet, Kaloh V'chamura. These pictures are indeed very sad.

7

 Jun 25, 2012 at 07:23 AM Babishka Says:

I'm sorry but they SHOULD serve in the army like everyone else. There is Nahal Haredi, they can serve and learn Torah at the same time.

8

 Jun 25, 2012 at 07:26 AM sasregener Says:

teshuva. tefila. utzedaka....etc.

9

 Jun 25, 2012 at 08:05 AM BaruchBendit Says:

The answer is NOT to put the draft dodgers in jail. Why shuld the State continue to house and feed them?

The real solution is to cut off ALL funding to Cheredim - both Litvishe and Chasidishe. That means stop the payments to the Yeshivas, Kollels, and individual families.

If they want to move their "Torah Centers" to Lakewood or Antwerp or Switzerland, so be it.

Baruch HaShem we will have remaining in Eretz Yisrael many National Religious and CHARDAL talmidim and talmidot who will keep the flame of Torah burning.

10

 Jun 25, 2012 at 08:47 AM ALTERG Says:

What a kiddush hashem.... The jewish people will anyway NOT join in the army, we are jewish & we will sit in learn like hashem teache's us

11

 Jun 25, 2012 at 08:48 AM shredready Says:

If Torah study cannot protect them from being drafted how do they expect Torah study to protect them from missiles and enemy attack

12

 Jun 25, 2012 at 08:58 AM benalt Says:

If the chareidim really wanted to punish Israel, they would join the army en-mass. The army doesn't know what it would be in for! And all the naggers complaining that they don't join the army would be silenced.

13

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:04 AM thecommissioner Says:

Sorry, but I think the Eidat Hachreidas used up their protests for a while. Everything in Meah Sharim turns into a protest. From the higher price of cottage cheese, to the pick up of garbage, I'm pretty sure we've all seen our share of protesting for a while. #theboywhocriedwolf.

14

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:08 AM Yonason_Herschlag Says:

The charedim were here before the medina, and they don't need to be dictated to by kofrim how to serve the Jewish people. The charedim contribute the most to Israel's security, as they have the most children. Even if the medina would have the most powerful army in the world, would the Jewish population be the minority, the medina would loose their ability to rule the land. Demographics is Israel's biggest threat to security. Contrary to popular opinion, a Jew can serve the Jewish people without expelling thousands of Jewish families from their homes. Those who believe the falsehoods depicting charedim as economic parasites are ignorant of economics, as well as the laws of shmiras haloshon, and are hateful of the children of G-d.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.

15

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:38 AM vitriol Says:

maybe if we saw other results of Haredi segregation than stoning cars on Shabbos there would be more support for exempting Yeshiva boys from serving. In the meantime, we have to get back to the old Am Yisroel as in biblical times, when all were equal before the Lord and everyone relied upon emunah to survive. This nonsense of non-yeshiva boys doing the fighting and dying for the Haredim has to stop. It is tearing apart the state because of the underlying resentment. Some go into Yeshiva just to avoid the draft and some go abroad to study. This has been nothing but a government sanctioned form of treason. There is no excuse for not serving your country - NONE.

16

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:55 AM HappyOlah Says:

Who are you calling kofrim #14? How dare you! You call the ones who SUPPORT Torah learning with their taxes and who PROTECT Torah learners with their bodies Kofrim? And you dare to lecture us about loshon hara? You are the kofer! My 19 year old son is learning 12-15 hours a day this year and IY"H next year, and then he will join the army to fulfill a valuable chessed to am yisroel. Just because men between the ages of 20 and 25 will spend time in the army, it doesn't mean that Torah learning will compromised in Eretz Yisroel. WHAT ABOUT THE BOYS aged 13-20! They learn all day. What about the avareichim in their thirties and forties and fifties? What about the thousands of retired men, now grandfathers, who spend their days learning?
What you say in NOT emes.

17

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:21 AM sane Says:

If they do not want to enlist, that is fine. However, at the very least, show hakoras hatov to those that do enlist and fight and die for them.

18

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:26 AM maxedout Says:

Reply to #10  
ALTERG Says:

What a kiddush hashem.... The jewish people will anyway NOT join in the army, we are jewish & we will sit in learn like hashem teache's us

ah yes, once again "Vayiftach Hashem es pi ha-ason"
alter, you are definitely the westbound side of an eastbound horse.

19

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:58 AM Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

I'm confused if sitting and learning in lieu of fighting saves klal yisroel in times of war against an enemy that is out to kill us, then kal vechomer sitting and learning when you have a problem with the govt should save us from the gov't's decrees. Why the need to protest (anytime!!)? Sounds a little hypocritical.

20

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:02 AM |Just sayin Says:

I have a great idea to solve all the problems...

those yungeleit that leave the beis medrash to riot, throw diapers, spit at police and cars, burn garbage etc... obviously don't need to be in the beis medrash -- they should be rounded up and forced into national service (not the army chas v'sholom with all its pritzus)

Its a win win solution.... those who need to learn will stay in the beis medrash. Those who have time to otherwise be on the street will do national service.

Less violence on the street.
Those learning in the beis medrash will use their koychas of kedusha to save us from the gov't's decrees (without the need to riot, just like they save us in times of war)
Those on the street will be able to channel their batlonus tendencies towards national service, making both the gov't and the secular population happy
and making a kiddush HaShem in the process.

AND we'll have SHalom al Yisroel!

21

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:04 AM real sasregener Says:

Reply to #8  
sasregener Says:

teshuva. tefila. utzedaka....etc.

tshuva tfila uzedakah willl make you reconsider chareidi shtus and look at the ikkar.
We pray for our bretherns in Israel that they should see the light of yiddishkeit.
We believe that everyone is responsible for their own actions and that we dont burden another jew when we can do it ourselves.To let another person fight and die for us while we die in ohalo shel torah is a deviant attitute so sick that it defies comprehension.To think that we ,as chareidim sitting in kollel,are doing the soldiers a favor just cements the mental sickness that has been imbuded into us by rabbonim who are totally deviant in every aspect of eretz yisroel and the medina.Instead of going out and helping in hospitals or bread lines or contributing to society and not shnorrering from the very place where u are spitting into is the ultimate ingrate ,act of chutzpah.At least be honest and say that you're too lazy,too frightened,too immature and too insecure to do anything but hide behind your rebbis Frak.Don't put a sackcloth on, i'm sure you didn't work to buy it with your own money.

22

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:10 AM shredready Says:

Shas Party Chairman Eli Yishai, who has already expressed harsh criticism of attempts to find an alternative to the Tal Law, has now characterized efforts to draft the Ultra-Orthodox as "bloodshed, incest, and idolatry" – three acts expressly forbidden by Judaism.

23

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:11 AM real sasregener says Says:

Reply to #14  
Yonason_Herschlag Says:

The charedim were here before the medina, and they don't need to be dictated to by kofrim how to serve the Jewish people. The charedim contribute the most to Israel's security, as they have the most children. Even if the medina would have the most powerful army in the world, would the Jewish population be the minority, the medina would loose their ability to rule the land. Demographics is Israel's biggest threat to security. Contrary to popular opinion, a Jew can serve the Jewish people without expelling thousands of Jewish families from their homes. Those who believe the falsehoods depicting charedim as economic parasites are ignorant of economics, as well as the laws of shmiras haloshon, and are hateful of the children of G-d.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.

Your comment is absolutely rubbish.
In fact there were plenty of non frum people living in eretz yisroel before the medina.In fact 90% of the jewish population was non frum .The fact that there is a larger percentage of frum people now in Israel is because the israeli government has been supporting the poorest classes of its citizens so that they are able to have lots of kids.That includes the chareidi and arab parts of the medina. Dont you think that the medina knows that its supporting you?alll it wants in return is some give to your take.Only ingrates take and dont give.Its thanks to

24

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:12 AM shredready Says:

Reply to #14  
Yonason_Herschlag Says:

The charedim were here before the medina, and they don't need to be dictated to by kofrim how to serve the Jewish people. The charedim contribute the most to Israel's security, as they have the most children. Even if the medina would have the most powerful army in the world, would the Jewish population be the minority, the medina would loose their ability to rule the land. Demographics is Israel's biggest threat to security. Contrary to popular opinion, a Jew can serve the Jewish people without expelling thousands of Jewish families from their homes. Those who believe the falsehoods depicting charedim as economic parasites are ignorant of economics, as well as the laws of shmiras haloshon, and are hateful of the children of G-d.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.


that is a myth since throughout history most jews where not charedim

25

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:30 AM MAYERFREUND Says:

What do you say to this ?
http://www.vosizneias.com/108527/2012/06/24/jerusalem-israeli-police-arrest-85-after-rally-turns-violent

26

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:24 AM DavidCohen Says:

“We will not allow them to take yeshiva students to the army or the police”

But we most definitely do allow the taking of funding from the evil Zionists.

“It is incumbent on us to give up our lives and not to stray from the path"

But we have no respect for those who have given up their lives for us.

27

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:26 AM sane Says:

If they can spend hours protesting, then they could spend some time doing national service.

28

 Jun 25, 2012 at 11:06 AM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #25  
MAYERFREUND Says:

What do you say to this ?
http://www.vosizneias.com/108527/2012/06/24/jerusalem-israeli-police-arrest-85-after-rally-turns-violent

This is what I have to say:

There is a vast difference between the take-all-give-nothing-back haredim and the people mentioned in the story you have quoted.

The vast majority of "the 85" have probably served in the armed forces; how many of your haredim even know one end of a rifle from the other?

29

 Jun 25, 2012 at 11:09 AM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #14  
Yonason_Herschlag Says:

The charedim were here before the medina, and they don't need to be dictated to by kofrim how to serve the Jewish people. The charedim contribute the most to Israel's security, as they have the most children. Even if the medina would have the most powerful army in the world, would the Jewish population be the minority, the medina would loose their ability to rule the land. Demographics is Israel's biggest threat to security. Contrary to popular opinion, a Jew can serve the Jewish people without expelling thousands of Jewish families from their homes. Those who believe the falsehoods depicting charedim as economic parasites are ignorant of economics, as well as the laws of shmiras haloshon, and are hateful of the children of G-d.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.

Just what have YOU done, Yonason_Herschlag, to defend the country you live in?

I am talking about tangible things, like army service or even sherut leumi, not standing over a steiger in your shul.

30

 Jun 25, 2012 at 10:51 AM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #7  
Babishka Says:

I'm sorry but they SHOULD serve in the army like everyone else. There is Nahal Haredi, they can serve and learn Torah at the same time.

So please open a yeshiva and tell your students to do that. but the bocherim from other yeshisos have to listen to there rosh yeshivos that tell them not to go.

31

 Jun 25, 2012 at 11:11 AM Beckford Says:

Reply to #22  
shredready Says:

Shas Party Chairman Eli Yishai, who has already expressed harsh criticism of attempts to find an alternative to the Tal Law, has now characterized efforts to draft the Ultra-Orthodox as "bloodshed, incest, and idolatry" – three acts expressly forbidden by Judaism.

I really don't think that in Eli Yishai, who is up to his armpits in public opprobrium arising from the recent State Comptroller's report on Yishai's mishandling of last year's forest fire, is really the best example you could have quoted at this time, shredready.

32

 Jun 25, 2012 at 11:17 AM Coney Island Kofer - and proud to be so! Says:

Reply to #14  
Yonason_Herschlag Says:

The charedim were here before the medina, and they don't need to be dictated to by kofrim how to serve the Jewish people. The charedim contribute the most to Israel's security, as they have the most children. Even if the medina would have the most powerful army in the world, would the Jewish population be the minority, the medina would loose their ability to rule the land. Demographics is Israel's biggest threat to security. Contrary to popular opinion, a Jew can serve the Jewish people without expelling thousands of Jewish families from their homes. Those who believe the falsehoods depicting charedim as economic parasites are ignorant of economics, as well as the laws of shmiras haloshon, and are hateful of the children of G-d.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.

The sooner this loud-mouthed lobbus, Yonason Herschlag, realizes what side his bread is buttered on, and who (or rather what) is supporting him, his wife and his brood the better.

Beitar Illit managed without him and his sort for many years, thank you very much. I wonder how he would manage back in Forest Hills, living on government handouts?

33

 Jun 25, 2012 at 11:23 AM RACHELIGHT Says:

"“The Zionists expelled the Arabs from the Land of Israel, what right do they have to disturb those who study Torah?” continued Shternbach. "


Umm, doesnt that bother anyone??

34

 Jun 25, 2012 at 11:30 AM Joe Says:

Again I say to you all, I'll make a deal with you. WE (the Chiraydim) will join the army for weekend duty, if the Chiloynim will do weekend duty in a Yishiva! Fair?

35

 Jun 25, 2012 at 01:03 PM GS Says:

Reply to #10  
ALTERG Says:

What a kiddush hashem.... The jewish people will anyway NOT join in the army, we are jewish & we will sit in learn like hashem teache's us

Um... sounds like you never open up Tanach. When you do, you will find out that yidden always serve with one hand holding sefer and another sword.

36

 Jun 25, 2012 at 01:10 PM bubii Says:

I think instead of being drafted they should be commited into a lunatic asylem,theese extreemests think others will work and die for them to enjoy this life and the imaginary after life.

37

 Jun 25, 2012 at 01:22 PM Kzler Says:

Reply to #10  
ALTERG Says:

What a kiddush hashem.... The jewish people will anyway NOT join in the army, we are jewish & we will sit in learn like hashem teache's us

You ever heard v'charbi and v'kashti. Without the Zahal[ the palmach, left tists] the entire galil including Tzfas would be Syrian and you would not and could not travel and make bonfires. At Latrun which was held by the Jordanian Legion and commanded by Sandhurst [ever heard of that] trained officer thew fledgling state would have been cut in half. You need to learn and probably at that you pisht in diapers.

38

 Jun 25, 2012 at 12:18 PM jackr Says:

Reply to #14  
Yonason_Herschlag Says:

The charedim were here before the medina, and they don't need to be dictated to by kofrim how to serve the Jewish people. The charedim contribute the most to Israel's security, as they have the most children. Even if the medina would have the most powerful army in the world, would the Jewish population be the minority, the medina would loose their ability to rule the land. Demographics is Israel's biggest threat to security. Contrary to popular opinion, a Jew can serve the Jewish people without expelling thousands of Jewish families from their homes. Those who believe the falsehoods depicting charedim as economic parasites are ignorant of economics, as well as the laws of shmiras haloshon, and are hateful of the children of G-d.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.

Wow, real revisionist history. "The charedim were here before the medina" and you want to go back to the good ole days? How many and who supported them? Did any of the Old Yishuv work or did they live as beggars getting money from Jews in Eastern Europe. Guess what, God put an end to the Jewish world of Eastern Europe and to the supply chain for the Old Yishuv. Now these Chareidim are dependant on the "chaluka" of the Medina. Appreciate how good you have it, the pre-Medina Jewish life was a disaster.

39

 Jun 25, 2012 at 01:47 PM 10010 Says:

Reply to #34  
Joe Says:

Again I say to you all, I'll make a deal with you. WE (the Chiraydim) will join the army for weekend duty, if the Chiloynim will do weekend duty in a Yishiva! Fair?

Big deal. After a week of blood (sometimes literally, R"L), toil and sweat defending YOU ("the Chiraydim") when do "the Chilyonim" get to rest? Will YOU ("the Chiraydim") lift even a finger to help them?

I ask, because for the last 64 years the vast majority of Israeli "Chiraydim" would not even offer a "Chiloyni" soldier ice in winter.

I ask because, at the very first sign of a military emergency, your "Chiraydim" will be cowering in their batei knesset claiming chasdei HaShem to protect *them* - conveniently leaving "Chiloynim" to pick up their weapons to defend the country.

Put more simply, which of your brave "Chiraydim" will be the first to go out on foot patrol, or to lie on muddy ground in the wet and the cold on a night ambush on Leil Shabat? Which of your "Chiraydim" will be the first to get into his armored personnel carrier, turn the key and drive on Shabbat afternoon?

You, and your cockamamey idea, Joe, are one and the same: pointless and useless.

40

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:04 PM ShmuelG Says:

Reply to #17  
sane Says:

If they do not want to enlist, that is fine. However, at the very least, show hakoras hatov to those that do enlist and fight and die for them.

“ If they do not want to enlist, that is fine."

What do you mean "that is fine?" The koifrim want to conscript us by the use of force!

41

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:18 PM ShmuelG Says:

Try hard as they might, they will never be able to conscript loyal Torah Jews. I don't know exactly what and how is going to happen and not happen, but I have complete emuna that the loyal Torah Jews will not be subjected to the immorality of life in the military.

42

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:02 PM esther Says:

Reply to #14  
Yonason_Herschlag Says:

The charedim were here before the medina, and they don't need to be dictated to by kofrim how to serve the Jewish people. The charedim contribute the most to Israel's security, as they have the most children. Even if the medina would have the most powerful army in the world, would the Jewish population be the minority, the medina would loose their ability to rule the land. Demographics is Israel's biggest threat to security. Contrary to popular opinion, a Jew can serve the Jewish people without expelling thousands of Jewish families from their homes. Those who believe the falsehoods depicting charedim as economic parasites are ignorant of economics, as well as the laws of shmiras haloshon, and are hateful of the children of G-d.

Without the charedim of just a few generations ago, their would be no Jewish population today. There are virtually no Jews that don't have charedi great grandparents, as the descendents of the non-charedim intermarry and assimilate. It is primarily the charedim that are insuring the future of the Jewish people.

yonansan,obviously frum people generaly have more children and the tragedy of yidden marrying goyim does exist in israel but to say there would be no jewish population today in ey is rediculous.assimaltion in ey doesn't mean the same as it does in america and i hate to break it to you but the majority of pre war european jewery was not frum.

43

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:33 PM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #40  
ShmuelG Says:

“ If they do not want to enlist, that is fine."

What do you mean "that is fine?" The koifrim want to conscript us by the use of force!

"The koifrim want to conscript us"

No, ShmuelG, not you. At your age you are well past your military sell-by date.

44

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:45 PM Joe Says:

Reply to #36  
bubii Says:

I think instead of being drafted they should be commited into a lunatic asylem,theese extreemests think others will work and die for them to enjoy this life and the imaginary after life.

That's right bubii the "imaginary after life". I agree. What fairy tales will they tell us next? Imagine that, an "after life". Next thing they'll be trying to tell us is that there was a Torah given at Mt. Sinai or that the so called Jews-chosen people-get a land called Israel. Man what imagination these people have. Like I said, I'm with you all the way.

45

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:51 PM GreenMetropolis Says:

Reply to #20  
|Just sayin Says:

I have a great idea to solve all the problems...

those yungeleit that leave the beis medrash to riot, throw diapers, spit at police and cars, burn garbage etc... obviously don't need to be in the beis medrash -- they should be rounded up and forced into national service (not the army chas v'sholom with all its pritzus)

Its a win win solution.... those who need to learn will stay in the beis medrash. Those who have time to otherwise be on the street will do national service.

Less violence on the street.
Those learning in the beis medrash will use their koychas of kedusha to save us from the gov't's decrees (without the need to riot, just like they save us in times of war)
Those on the street will be able to channel their batlonus tendencies towards national service, making both the gov't and the secular population happy
and making a kiddush HaShem in the process.

AND we'll have SHalom al Yisroel!

KOL HAKAVOD, "Just sayin"!

This reader has provided us with the ideal solution, IMO, and no one else has picked up on it.

If only we could arrange for "Just sayin" #20, with his/her truly practical ideas, with the black negativity of Yonason_Herschlag #14 who is, let's face it, a walking public relations disaster for the charedi element here.

46

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:55 PM yidelle Says:

This has a better chance of bringing the final Redemtion then having desecrators of shabos or people whose goal is to turn all of klal yisroel into a Nation like other Nations.

47

 Jun 25, 2012 at 02:57 PM Joe Says:

Reply to #39  
10010 Says:

Big deal. After a week of blood (sometimes literally, R"L), toil and sweat defending YOU ("the Chiraydim") when do "the Chilyonim" get to rest? Will YOU ("the Chiraydim") lift even a finger to help them?

I ask, because for the last 64 years the vast majority of Israeli "Chiraydim" would not even offer a "Chiloyni" soldier ice in winter.

I ask because, at the very first sign of a military emergency, your "Chiraydim" will be cowering in their batei knesset claiming chasdei HaShem to protect *them* - conveniently leaving "Chiloynim" to pick up their weapons to defend the country.

Put more simply, which of your brave "Chiraydim" will be the first to go out on foot patrol, or to lie on muddy ground in the wet and the cold on a night ambush on Leil Shabat? Which of your "Chiraydim" will be the first to get into his armored personnel carrier, turn the key and drive on Shabbat afternoon?

You, and your cockamamey idea, Joe, are one and the same: pointless and useless.

You have your excuses already in place. Good to see that. BTW do you have any better ideas or are you "just sayin? The chilonim and perhaps your refusal to acknowledge the importance of learning by some people ALL the time has and will be your spiritual downfall. BYW what and why do you need or want or care if a very small portion (about 1or 2% of the Jews in Israel don't want to join the army. If they they are cowards as you seem to think, who needs them. They would just ruin the moral of your hero's! Better to stay home or better yet LEAVE THE COUNTRY, no? Just imagine that Israel "yudinrayn!

48

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:01 PM what?????? Says:

Reply to #39  
10010 Says:

Big deal. After a week of blood (sometimes literally, R"L), toil and sweat defending YOU ("the Chiraydim") when do "the Chilyonim" get to rest? Will YOU ("the Chiraydim") lift even a finger to help them?

I ask, because for the last 64 years the vast majority of Israeli "Chiraydim" would not even offer a "Chiloyni" soldier ice in winter.

I ask because, at the very first sign of a military emergency, your "Chiraydim" will be cowering in their batei knesset claiming chasdei HaShem to protect *them* - conveniently leaving "Chiloynim" to pick up their weapons to defend the country.

Put more simply, which of your brave "Chiraydim" will be the first to go out on foot patrol, or to lie on muddy ground in the wet and the cold on a night ambush on Leil Shabat? Which of your "Chiraydim" will be the first to get into his armored personnel carrier, turn the key and drive on Shabbat afternoon?

You, and your cockamamey idea, Joe, are one and the same: pointless and useless.

I guarantee you these Charadim will NEVER serve in the army. Now go bang your head against another wall and waste more time.

49

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:22 PM esther Says:

Reply to #44  
Joe Says:

That's right bubii the "imaginary after life". I agree. What fairy tales will they tell us next? Imagine that, an "after life". Next thing they'll be trying to tell us is that there was a Torah given at Mt. Sinai or that the so called Jews-chosen people-get a land called Israel. Man what imagination these people have. Like I said, I'm with you all the way.

i'm pretty sure that what bubbi is saying is that those who sit and learn at another's expense,even to the extent of another's life,are not earning the olam haba they thought they were.that sounds pretty acurate to me.

50

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:25 PM esther Says:

Reply to #45  
GreenMetropolis Says:

KOL HAKAVOD, "Just sayin"!

This reader has provided us with the ideal solution, IMO, and no one else has picked up on it.

If only we could arrange for "Just sayin" #20, with his/her truly practical ideas, with the black negativity of Yonason_Herschlag #14 who is, let's face it, a walking public relations disaster for the charedi element here.

so you agree that the pritzus of throwing dirty diapers,burning trash and calling other jews nazi is somehow better then all the pritzus you're sure is in the army?

51

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:30 PM esther Says:

Reply to #47  
Joe Says:

You have your excuses already in place. Good to see that. BTW do you have any better ideas or are you "just sayin? The chilonim and perhaps your refusal to acknowledge the importance of learning by some people ALL the time has and will be your spiritual downfall. BYW what and why do you need or want or care if a very small portion (about 1or 2% of the Jews in Israel don't want to join the army. If they they are cowards as you seem to think, who needs them. They would just ruin the moral of your hero's! Better to stay home or better yet LEAVE THE COUNTRY, no? Just imagine that Israel "yudinrayn!

and you're convienently in the portion that doesn't want to risk their lives. can you at least see how that might infuriate the rest of the country?

52

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:17 PM FreezaSpace Says:

Reply to #39  
10010 Says:

Big deal. After a week of blood (sometimes literally, R"L), toil and sweat defending YOU ("the Chiraydim") when do "the Chilyonim" get to rest? Will YOU ("the Chiraydim") lift even a finger to help them?

I ask, because for the last 64 years the vast majority of Israeli "Chiraydim" would not even offer a "Chiloyni" soldier ice in winter.

I ask because, at the very first sign of a military emergency, your "Chiraydim" will be cowering in their batei knesset claiming chasdei HaShem to protect *them* - conveniently leaving "Chiloynim" to pick up their weapons to defend the country.

Put more simply, which of your brave "Chiraydim" will be the first to go out on foot patrol, or to lie on muddy ground in the wet and the cold on a night ambush on Leil Shabat? Which of your "Chiraydim" will be the first to get into his armored personnel carrier, turn the key and drive on Shabbat afternoon?

You, and your cockamamey idea, Joe, are one and the same: pointless and useless.

If they are so worried about serving in the army, they should just their stuff up and move to a country that doesn't have one, like Canada!

53

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:21 PM Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

i call fake on the pictures...
If there were (1500??) burlap sacks distributed and 5000 people showed up then the pictures should show at least show some people wearing burlap. Many pictures are just a sea of black! No burlap!
Is the editor sure they aren't being duped with pictures from other events??

54

 Jun 25, 2012 at 03:59 PM brainwashed BT drinking koolaid Says:

just for everyone to know whenever the medina starts up with the yeshivas that's when the Arabs start up

55

 Jun 25, 2012 at 04:15 PM Canuck Says:

Reply to #52  
FreezaSpace Says:

If they are so worried about serving in the army, they should just their stuff up and move to a country that doesn't have one, like Canada!

No thank you, very much. Here in Canada we have certain standards that must be met before our government will admit anyone into our country - even tourists.

Please take your unwanted human garbage elsewhere.

56

 Jun 25, 2012 at 04:17 PM 10010 Says:

Reply to #48  
what?????? Says:

I guarantee you these Charadim will NEVER serve in the army. Now go bang your head against another wall and waste more time.

And what part of my earlier message does not indicate that, loud and clear?

57

 Jun 25, 2012 at 04:24 PM 10010 Says:

Reply to #47  
Joe Says:

You have your excuses already in place. Good to see that. BTW do you have any better ideas or are you "just sayin? The chilonim and perhaps your refusal to acknowledge the importance of learning by some people ALL the time has and will be your spiritual downfall. BYW what and why do you need or want or care if a very small portion (about 1or 2% of the Jews in Israel don't want to join the army. If they they are cowards as you seem to think, who needs them. They would just ruin the moral of your hero's! Better to stay home or better yet LEAVE THE COUNTRY, no? Just imagine that Israel "yudinrayn!

I speak with nearly thirty years of first-hand experience, here in Israel serving in the army both as a conscript and subsequently as a reservist.

I and the rest of my 'kipa sruga' army buddies are heartily sick and tired of the disgusting parasitic burden that every Israeli (not "charedi resident of the Holy Land") has to bear, day in and day out, year in and year out.

I and the rest of my reserve army buddies have had enough of having to spend up to 180 days a year - every year - defending people who bleed us dry by their cynical inaction, all the time fully aware that 'yenem' will defend them while they sit and laugh at us.

I am thoroughly disgusted and appalled at charedim who will not even take a single minute on one day a year (Yom HaZikaron) to remember the sacrifices of all those brave men and women who gave their lives so that our charedi "friends" can live in safety.

Dai! Maspik kvar!

58

 Jun 25, 2012 at 04:27 PM Rangers Goalie Says:

Reply to #54  
brainwashed BT drinking koolaid Says:

just for everyone to know whenever the medina starts up with the yeshivas that's when the Arabs start up

Bingo! You got that right!

59

 Jun 25, 2012 at 04:34 PM Joe Says:

Reply to #51  
esther Says:

and you're convienently in the portion that doesn't want to risk their lives. can you at least see how that might infuriate the rest of the country?

"can you at least see how that might infuriate the rest of the country? ”

Can YOU see how the fact that most of the country by knowingly not keeping Torah and mitzvos infuriates HASHEM??? And how are you going to answer that one? And please don't anyone have the nerve and stupidity to quote and say "how do you know what Hashem is thinking"? IF you believe in the Torah and just translate the words, Hashem IS telling you exactly what HE is thinking!!

60

 Jun 25, 2012 at 04:35 PM luv_pancake Says:

perhaps if the chareidim will be treated in the army with a bit more modesty they might reconsider. but with whats going on today, like soldiers being forced to listen to female singers, i highly doubt that.

61

 Jun 25, 2012 at 05:24 PM Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Reply to #59  
Joe Says:

"can you at least see how that might infuriate the rest of the country? ”

Can YOU see how the fact that most of the country by knowingly not keeping Torah and mitzvos infuriates HASHEM??? And how are you going to answer that one? And please don't anyone have the nerve and stupidity to quote and say "how do you know what Hashem is thinking"? IF you believe in the Torah and just translate the words, Hashem IS telling you exactly what HE is thinking!!

I think our mesorah is quite clear. Nevuah nowadays is limited to Shotim and Ketanim. Anyone who can say with utter certainty that their derech in Judaism is right and everyone else is wrong (e.g., you vs chardal, dati leumi, mo, etc...) has to fall into one of those two categories. I'll let you choose.

62

 Jun 25, 2012 at 07:11 PM Yonason_Herschlag Says:

Reply to #16  
HappyOlah Says:

Who are you calling kofrim #14? How dare you! You call the ones who SUPPORT Torah learning with their taxes and who PROTECT Torah learners with their bodies Kofrim? And you dare to lecture us about loshon hara? You are the kofer! My 19 year old son is learning 12-15 hours a day this year and IY"H next year, and then he will join the army to fulfill a valuable chessed to am yisroel. Just because men between the ages of 20 and 25 will spend time in the army, it doesn't mean that Torah learning will compromised in Eretz Yisroel. WHAT ABOUT THE BOYS aged 13-20! They learn all day. What about the avareichim in their thirties and forties and fifties? What about the thousands of retired men, now grandfathers, who spend their days learning?
What you say in NOT emes.

I call kofrim many of the top commanders in the IDF, who don't observe Jewish traditions nor believe that the torah is divine. I call kofrim all of the members of the supreme court who rule over the IDF, and the kneset, and the media, with a desire to annihilate observance of Judaism.

Most of those who serve in the IDF are fine yidden, whom are trully dedicated to serving and protecting the Jewish people, and I thank them for their efforts and sacrifice.

While there certainly is a need to provide security, there is no moral obligation to do that taking orders from kofrim involving many violations of the torah.

63

 Jun 25, 2012 at 08:05 PM esther Says:

Reply to #59  
Joe Says:

"can you at least see how that might infuriate the rest of the country? ”

Can YOU see how the fact that most of the country by knowingly not keeping Torah and mitzvos infuriates HASHEM??? And how are you going to answer that one? And please don't anyone have the nerve and stupidity to quote and say "how do you know what Hashem is thinking"? IF you believe in the Torah and just translate the words, Hashem IS telling you exactly what HE is thinking!!

first of all,you didn't answer my question. and no Hashem is not infuriated by people who were not raised frum and don't know better.if anything imho i would think Hashem would be upset with those who do know better but show no hakoras hatov or ahavas yisroel for other jews who happen to act differently.were ALL his children.

64

 Jun 25, 2012 at 08:08 PM savtat Says:

Reply to #11  
shredready Says:

If Torah study cannot protect them from being drafted how do they expect Torah study to protect them from missiles and enemy attack

Very clever, I must say.

65

 Jun 25, 2012 at 09:22 PM Joe Says:

Reply to #63  
esther Says:

first of all,you didn't answer my question. and no Hashem is not infuriated by people who were not raised frum and don't know better.if anything imho i would think Hashem would be upset with those who do know better but show no hakoras hatov or ahavas yisroel for other jews who happen to act differently.were ALL his children.

"and don't know better"
Are you kidding me? What don't they know? That there is such a thing as the Sabbath or kosher or that there is a G-D? Again the question begs why live and protect Israel, a country that for people who 'DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER" wouldn't have the foggeyist reason of why and for what purpose must they fight for a country that for them they know no purpose for??Are you telling me that there are people of even other nations who never heard of the Torah(bible) or the Sabbath? (unless you don't want to know about these things) Not in todays world Even a pigmy tribe in the deepest jungles has heard of the bible. I who have been around the world have never met such a person.

66

 Jun 26, 2012 at 11:49 AM PaulinSaudi Says:

None of my business, but even I can see this is a critical fight for the State of Israel. We cannot even begin to see the effects a decision (any decision) will have in twenty or thirty years.

67

 Jun 26, 2012 at 12:49 PM ycohen Says:

It looks like most posters here don't understand the true reason for the Eidah's opposition to army service. It is not because of learning Torah. It is not because of immorality in the army. It is because we are against the existence of the state and the existence of its army. We are conscientious objectors to its wars and most countries have laws exempting such people from army service.

So no, we are not learning while someone else is fighting and dying for us, because according to our ideology they should not be there either. Eretz Yisroel should be under a non-Jewish government.

If it were a non-Jewish government we would gladly do our patriotic duty and serve in the army if called, just like we would serve in the American army if drafted.

Any Jew who is against the medinah but would be afraid to live there under a non-Jewish government, and is thus indebted to the IDF for protecting him, is a hypocrite and has no business living there or even visiting.

68

 Jun 26, 2012 at 02:31 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #67  
ycohen Says:

It looks like most posters here don't understand the true reason for the Eidah's opposition to army service. It is not because of learning Torah. It is not because of immorality in the army. It is because we are against the existence of the state and the existence of its army. We are conscientious objectors to its wars and most countries have laws exempting such people from army service.

So no, we are not learning while someone else is fighting and dying for us, because according to our ideology they should not be there either. Eretz Yisroel should be under a non-Jewish government.

If it were a non-Jewish government we would gladly do our patriotic duty and serve in the army if called, just like we would serve in the American army if drafted.

Any Jew who is against the medinah but would be afraid to live there under a non-Jewish government, and is thus indebted to the IDF for protecting him, is a hypocrite and has no business living there or even visiting.

What refreshing honesty!. Theres just one problem. We have a lot of data about what happens to Jews when goyim are in charge of their defense. A lot of data. Not much of it is pretty.

69

 Jun 27, 2012 at 01:17 PM benalt Says:

Reply to #67  
ycohen Says:

It looks like most posters here don't understand the true reason for the Eidah's opposition to army service. It is not because of learning Torah. It is not because of immorality in the army. It is because we are against the existence of the state and the existence of its army. We are conscientious objectors to its wars and most countries have laws exempting such people from army service.

So no, we are not learning while someone else is fighting and dying for us, because according to our ideology they should not be there either. Eretz Yisroel should be under a non-Jewish government.

If it were a non-Jewish government we would gladly do our patriotic duty and serve in the army if called, just like we would serve in the American army if drafted.

Any Jew who is against the medinah but would be afraid to live there under a non-Jewish government, and is thus indebted to the IDF for protecting him, is a hypocrite and has no business living there or even visiting.

I find your comment interesting. Could you expand on this hashkofa regarding, say, the fairness of those identifying with the Eidah to take government stipends for Kollel learning etc. if they are against the one's providing it?

70

 Jun 27, 2012 at 03:33 PM ShmuelG Says:

Reply to #69  
benalt Says:

I find your comment interesting. Could you expand on this hashkofa regarding, say, the fairness of those identifying with the Eidah to take government stipends for Kollel learning etc. if they are against the one's providing it?

I am not speaking for ycohen, just for myself. I don't know ycohen, but after reading his post, I will say that if he wishes to respond to you, he will do so very eloquently.

But allow me to attempt to explain it to you with the moshul. Suppose some foreign entity occupied some land. Then, when "the smoke cleared," the occupiers (because they calculated that it suits their goals) decided to distribute some of their resources to the people indigenous to the land they occupied. Also, by defending their newly acquired land, the occupiers "protect" the occupied from other would-be belligerents. Now, by accepting these disbursements and "protection" from the occupiers, do the indigenous people have moral imperative to be loyal to their occupiers? Even as much as to serve in the occupier's military force?

71

 Jun 28, 2012 at 02:47 PM benalt Says:

Reply to #70  
ShmuelG Says:

I am not speaking for ycohen, just for myself. I don't know ycohen, but after reading his post, I will say that if he wishes to respond to you, he will do so very eloquently.

But allow me to attempt to explain it to you with the moshul. Suppose some foreign entity occupied some land. Then, when "the smoke cleared," the occupiers (because they calculated that it suits their goals) decided to distribute some of their resources to the people indigenous to the land they occupied. Also, by defending their newly acquired land, the occupiers "protect" the occupied from other would-be belligerents. Now, by accepting these disbursements and "protection" from the occupiers, do the indigenous people have moral imperative to be loyal to their occupiers? Even as much as to serve in the occupier's military force?

I can understand the military bit more than the resource part. I understand that Satmar is quite consistent in that they don't accept anything and that makes sense to me. I would like to know their outlook with regards to accepting money and services.

72

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