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Beit Shemesh - Superbus to Compensate Teen Passenger over Women's Exclusion

Published on: July 12, 2012 07:37 AM
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File photo Oren HirschFile photo Oren Hirsch

Beit Shemesh - Superbus transportation company will pay NIS 13,000 (some $3,200) in compensations to Ariella Marsden, a 15-year-old high school student who was asked by a bus driver to move to the back of the bus in order to allow two haredi men to sit in the front.
 
During her testimony, Marsden described the chain of events, saying she boarded the bus on the way back from school with two of her friends and sat in the front. Shortly afterwards, two haredi men boarded the bus and stood in the front, even tough there were vacant seats in the back. According to Marsden, the driver then asked her and her friends to move to the back of the bus, and they complied. However, by that time there were no empty seats and the three were forced to stand for the duration of the ride.
 
The Beit Shemesh Small Claims Court ruled that the driver is responsible for the incident because he was the one who approached the plaintiff and her friends.


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1

 Jul 12, 2012 at 07:51 AM DovidTheK Says:

Compare that award to Rosa parks, the black woman who wouldn't move to the back of the bus in America. She was fined $10 plus $4 in court costs.

2

 Jul 12, 2012 at 09:09 AM ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

3

 Jul 12, 2012 at 09:26 AM Avi Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

Such buses do exist in Israel, if I understand correctly. But not all buses are segregated, just as not all buses are segregated in the US.

I know this is extremely difficult to wrap your little mind around, but there is no Halachic requirement for segregated buses. Therefore, the fact that such buses do not form the majority of buses in Israel has nothing to do with the Jewishness of the State.

4

 Jul 12, 2012 at 09:27 AM shimonyehuda Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

those are private bus lines and if they accept money from the govt as a subsidy would not be allowed to separate the sexes.

5

 Jul 12, 2012 at 10:10 AM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

There is no shame here. The shame is on the disgusting men who would make 3 ladies have to stand up for the duration of their ride while they sat in comfort. I hope it is the last bit of comfort they ever feel in their lives. I hope they never find another comfortable seat in their lives. Their complete lack of consideration for these young ladies is appalling, and is the behavior of animals... not people.

There are PUBLIC buses and there are PRIVATE buses.

PUBLIC buses are for the general PUBLIC and must not EVER be segregated in order to appease a small fraction of Orthodox Jews who demand such a thing.

If those people would like to have a PRIVATE bus line (Monroe bus, Monsey Trails, etc.) by all means they should make one for themselves. Nobody is stopping them. If there are so many people who want it, I'm sure it will be a thriving business for them.... but that would mean they would have to work, and we all know that that THESE chareidim (not all, obviously) would never lower themselves to the level of the Rambam of the Chofetz Chaim by WORKING.

6

 Jul 12, 2012 at 09:43 AM anon1m0us Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

1) The private buses in the US does not receive public funds and thus can make their own rules.

2) The driver of the Monsey buses cannot request any passenger to move or put up a mechitzah. Hence, Monsey Trails lost the famous court case.

3) Only Minyan Buses for Monsey Trails have a mechitzah. The BP has a mechitzah only if a passenger puts it up. However, it must come down if another passenger refuses it.

So of the Superbus receives public funds it cannot discriminate.

7

 Jul 12, 2012 at 09:59 AM katz Says:

There's absolutely no Halachik reason to separate men and women on a bus. There's nothing "Jewish" about doing it. It's a stringency taken on very recently by certain Jewish groups, but it's wrong to force others to take on your stringency.

8

 Jul 12, 2012 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:

In Monroe and Monsey these busses are privately owned. The bus in Israel is a public bus.

9

 Jul 12, 2012 at 10:50 AM Love Davka Says:

Once again ALTERG gets his facts wrong. It is illegal for the BP-Williamsburg to deliberately separate men and women. They have already gotten into trouble for this. (I don't know about the other bus routes.)
ALTERG has a habit of seeing only the bad in Israel and only the good in other countries. He suffers from NKS (Neturei Karta Syndrome).

10

 Jul 12, 2012 at 10:34 AM Chaim Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

Public buses in the US do not separate -you are talking about private buses. You can hire a private bus in Israel too -

11

 Jul 12, 2012 at 10:34 AM grandpajoe Says:

This is getting to be a disgrace - those men should not ever ever walk in the street because there may be WOMEN AND GIRLS ON THE STREET (OY VAY) how ignorant of those men - In Boro Park, Williamsburg, any religious community MEN and WOMEN walk in the streets - if they didn't want pass the girls then get off the bus - bit NO make an issue. The chillul hashem of the young 'men' is that they are not 'MEN"
Isn't there a story about a Rav that was sitting on the Bus in Yerushalayim, a woman sat next to him, instead of making an issue - he got off the bus, and took another one.
That says it all.

12

 Jul 12, 2012 at 11:05 AM remelys Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

That's what you decided to point to as the shame? The real shame is that your narrow mindedness will not allow you to recognize who the victims are here. This was a 15 year old Jewish girl coming home from school, who will one day be a a Jewish mother and raise a Jewish family. How utterly degrading and embarrassing.
Sometimes I feel sad to be associated with people like you.

13

 Jul 12, 2012 at 11:09 AM shvigger Says:

Reply to #5  
PMOinFL Says:

There is no shame here. The shame is on the disgusting men who would make 3 ladies have to stand up for the duration of their ride while they sat in comfort. I hope it is the last bit of comfort they ever feel in their lives. I hope they never find another comfortable seat in their lives. Their complete lack of consideration for these young ladies is appalling, and is the behavior of animals... not people.

There are PUBLIC buses and there are PRIVATE buses.

PUBLIC buses are for the general PUBLIC and must not EVER be segregated in order to appease a small fraction of Orthodox Jews who demand such a thing.

If those people would like to have a PRIVATE bus line (Monroe bus, Monsey Trails, etc.) by all means they should make one for themselves. Nobody is stopping them. If there are so many people who want it, I'm sure it will be a thriving business for them.... but that would mean they would have to work, and we all know that that THESE chareidim (not all, obviously) would never lower themselves to the level of the Rambam of the Chofetz Chaim by WORKING.

>>>>>>>> Nobody is stopping them. If there are so many people who want it, I'm sure it will be a thriving business for them.

The Minister of Transportation is stopping them. Get your facts straight before you comment. The frum community desperately wants to start their own bus company.

14

 Jul 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #5  
PMOinFL Says:

There is no shame here. The shame is on the disgusting men who would make 3 ladies have to stand up for the duration of their ride while they sat in comfort. I hope it is the last bit of comfort they ever feel in their lives. I hope they never find another comfortable seat in their lives. Their complete lack of consideration for these young ladies is appalling, and is the behavior of animals... not people.

There are PUBLIC buses and there are PRIVATE buses.

PUBLIC buses are for the general PUBLIC and must not EVER be segregated in order to appease a small fraction of Orthodox Jews who demand such a thing.

If those people would like to have a PRIVATE bus line (Monroe bus, Monsey Trails, etc.) by all means they should make one for themselves. Nobody is stopping them. If there are so many people who want it, I'm sure it will be a thriving business for them.... but that would mean they would have to work, and we all know that that THESE chareidim (not all, obviously) would never lower themselves to the level of the Rambam of the Chofetz Chaim by WORKING.

You write "I hope they never find another comfortable seat in their lives."
Is this your version of the mitzvah of ahavas yisroel or something else?
Maybe it is plain sinas chinom and that's why moshi'ach is not coming?
The gemoro says in sanhedrin "if one uses a course on another it comes right back to the who coursed". So get ready for your own course to hit you and watch your language next time.

15

 Jul 12, 2012 at 12:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
PMOinFL Says:

There is no shame here. The shame is on the disgusting men who would make 3 ladies have to stand up for the duration of their ride while they sat in comfort. I hope it is the last bit of comfort they ever feel in their lives. I hope they never find another comfortable seat in their lives. Their complete lack of consideration for these young ladies is appalling, and is the behavior of animals... not people.

There are PUBLIC buses and there are PRIVATE buses.

PUBLIC buses are for the general PUBLIC and must not EVER be segregated in order to appease a small fraction of Orthodox Jews who demand such a thing.

If those people would like to have a PRIVATE bus line (Monroe bus, Monsey Trails, etc.) by all means they should make one for themselves. Nobody is stopping them. If there are so many people who want it, I'm sure it will be a thriving business for them.... but that would mean they would have to work, and we all know that that THESE chareidim (not all, obviously) would never lower themselves to the level of the Rambam of the Chofetz Chaim by WORKING.

You write "PUBLIC buses are for the general PUBLIC and must not EVER be segregated". Can you please explain witch posek or godol said this and what is the "isur" (prohibition) why it "must not EVER be segregated"?

16

 Jul 12, 2012 at 12:42 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #11  
grandpajoe Says:

This is getting to be a disgrace - those men should not ever ever walk in the street because there may be WOMEN AND GIRLS ON THE STREET (OY VAY) how ignorant of those men - In Boro Park, Williamsburg, any religious community MEN and WOMEN walk in the streets - if they didn't want pass the girls then get off the bus - bit NO make an issue. The chillul hashem of the young 'men' is that they are not 'MEN"
Isn't there a story about a Rav that was sitting on the Bus in Yerushalayim, a woman sat next to him, instead of making an issue - he got off the bus, and took another one.
That says it all.

You write "Isn't there a story about a Rav that was sitting on the Bus in Yerushalayim, a woman sat next to him, instead of making an issue - he got off the bus, and took another one."
Do you know how much bitul torah was caused by making this rav wait for the next bus to arrive?. I know this rav, there was over a minyan people waiting for him to give his shiur and because of this he was late, not one minute but a much bigger number. Now multiply this by over 10 time and there is your answer.
Maybe you call this a happy ending but I don't.

17

 Jul 12, 2012 at 12:59 PM OPElly Says:

Am I the only one who's noticed that the driver seems to have acted on his own initiative? The article makes no mention of any request on the part of the two Chareidi passengers.

Maybe they understand that, as two posters have pointed out so far, there's no halacha requiring separate buses, or separate seating sections on individual buses.

18

 Jul 12, 2012 at 01:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
MAYERFREUND Says:

You write "Isn't there a story about a Rav that was sitting on the Bus in Yerushalayim, a woman sat next to him, instead of making an issue - he got off the bus, and took another one."
Do you know how much bitul torah was caused by making this rav wait for the next bus to arrive?. I know this rav, there was over a minyan people waiting for him to give his shiur and because of this he was late, not one minute but a much bigger number. Now multiply this by over 10 time and there is your answer.
Maybe you call this a happy ending but I don't.

Thanks for the laugh.

19

 Jul 12, 2012 at 01:21 PM Avi Says:

Reply to #16  
MAYERFREUND Says:

You write "Isn't there a story about a Rav that was sitting on the Bus in Yerushalayim, a woman sat next to him, instead of making an issue - he got off the bus, and took another one."
Do you know how much bitul torah was caused by making this rav wait for the next bus to arrive?. I know this rav, there was over a minyan people waiting for him to give his shiur and because of this he was late, not one minute but a much bigger number. Now multiply this by over 10 time and there is your answer.
Maybe you call this a happy ending but I don't.

On one hand I hope you are not serious. If there was any bitul Torah, it was entirely the fault of those being mevatel. No Jew should require a maggid shiur in order to engage in learning. Pull out a Chumash and start Chazarah. (Of course I think for most Charedim, it would be new material!)

On the other hand, I hope you are deadly serious. I can always use a good laugh. Is it assur to make fun of people who display ignorance and stupidity in a public forum? A real shame if it is.

20

 Jul 12, 2012 at 02:10 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #16  
MAYERFREUND Says:

You write "Isn't there a story about a Rav that was sitting on the Bus in Yerushalayim, a woman sat next to him, instead of making an issue - he got off the bus, and took another one."
Do you know how much bitul torah was caused by making this rav wait for the next bus to arrive?. I know this rav, there was over a minyan people waiting for him to give his shiur and because of this he was late, not one minute but a much bigger number. Now multiply this by over 10 time and there is your answer.
Maybe you call this a happy ending but I don't.

It still might. If that Rav gets some therapy...

21

 Jul 12, 2012 at 02:32 PM Love Davka Says:

Reply to #16  
MAYERFREUND Says:

You write "Isn't there a story about a Rav that was sitting on the Bus in Yerushalayim, a woman sat next to him, instead of making an issue - he got off the bus, and took another one."
Do you know how much bitul torah was caused by making this rav wait for the next bus to arrive?. I know this rav, there was over a minyan people waiting for him to give his shiur and because of this he was late, not one minute but a much bigger number. Now multiply this by over 10 time and there is your answer.
Maybe you call this a happy ending but I don't.

The rav in the story was R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l, one of the most highly respected Yerushalmi gedolim of the previous generation. You have some nerve criticizing him for bitul Torah. (In fact, I suspect that you completely made up that part of the story.)
I wonder what you would say if a rav came late to give a shiur because he had to scream at women for not wearing thick stockings. You would probably say that the bitul Torah is justified in face of the great mitzvah of upholding holy standards of tznius.

22

 Jul 12, 2012 at 02:45 PM shimon Says:

Reply to #3  
Avi Says:

Such buses do exist in Israel, if I understand correctly. But not all buses are segregated, just as not all buses are segregated in the US.

I know this is extremely difficult to wrap your little mind around, but there is no Halachic requirement for segregated buses. Therefore, the fact that such buses do not form the majority of buses in Israel has nothing to do with the Jewishness of the State.

If this was the case, i'm absolutely sure NO ONE would have ever dreamed of asking the women to sit in any womens section.
The courts are punishing us for the very existence of mehadrin busses. But mehadrin did start off private until egged complained, and then they agreed that they would make some segregated busses too, instead of losing their market.
This then, was obviously one of those busses.
Everything is answered up for the chareidim, if all what i say is true.

Nothing is answered up for the courts!

23

 Jul 12, 2012 at 01:13 PM Halaivy Says:

Reply to #5  
PMOinFL Says:

There is no shame here. The shame is on the disgusting men who would make 3 ladies have to stand up for the duration of their ride while they sat in comfort. I hope it is the last bit of comfort they ever feel in their lives. I hope they never find another comfortable seat in their lives. Their complete lack of consideration for these young ladies is appalling, and is the behavior of animals... not people.

There are PUBLIC buses and there are PRIVATE buses.

PUBLIC buses are for the general PUBLIC and must not EVER be segregated in order to appease a small fraction of Orthodox Jews who demand such a thing.

If those people would like to have a PRIVATE bus line (Monroe bus, Monsey Trails, etc.) by all means they should make one for themselves. Nobody is stopping them. If there are so many people who want it, I'm sure it will be a thriving business for them.... but that would mean they would have to work, and we all know that that THESE chareidim (not all, obviously) would never lower themselves to the level of the Rambam of the Chofetz Chaim by WORKING.

Let's get it straight before you accuse!
Public buses are supplied by Eged and this is a private bus line run by the charedi rabonim. However the government does not allow any segregation if money is charged so they work with a card system. In this case the women begged to get on and they will pay the fair in cash begging that they didn't have their card and must get home so the driver allowed it out of mercy and it ended up being a sting to get them.

And now that we have established that they are working and the buses are private at the level of the Chofetz Chaim let me ask why don't these charedim raise their head like the Chasam Sofer and the Chofetz Chaim who split away from the Niologs and founded the Orthodox movement on the Charedi foundations to exclude those who modernize the Torah.

24

 Jul 12, 2012 at 01:45 PM Crusty Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

You write "PUBLIC buses are for the general PUBLIC and must not EVER be segregated". Can you please explain witch posek or godol said this and what is the "isur" (prohibition) why it "must not EVER be segregated"?

They should not be segregated because they accept tax dollars paid by women and men who want to sit next to women.

25

 Jul 12, 2012 at 03:05 PM Robert Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

it is time for you to stop the hate and the constant rantings

maybe you should see a mental health professional as i have never seen any posts from you with the slightest positive spin or love of israel

26

 Jul 12, 2012 at 03:18 PM FredE Says:

Personally, I think this smacks of Talibanism. But, given this "mehadrin" mishagas,
it would help things a lot if they separated from side to side instead of from front to back. That way you dont have the bad vibes of the "back of the bus". That is in fact what those Monsey lines do.

27

 Jul 12, 2012 at 03:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Love Davka Says:

Once again ALTERG gets his facts wrong. It is illegal for the BP-Williamsburg to deliberately separate men and women. They have already gotten into trouble for this. (I don't know about the other bus routes.)
ALTERG has a habit of seeing only the bad in Israel and only the good in other countries. He suffers from NKS (Neturei Karta Syndrome).

Because MALTERG has a habit of seeing only the bad in Israel and only the good in other countries.

He also should learn how to spell simple second grade words. This is embarassing.

28

 Jul 12, 2012 at 04:05 PM zat1 Says:

its sad the girls had to stand but $3200 for a bus ride that seems a bit over the top whether or not it was wrong of the driver to ask them to move that is asking people to sit in a place that will (right or wrong) be asked to move and then sue and that is the problem in the story


no one was rude to the girls they just were asked to move

29

 Jul 12, 2012 at 06:48 PM savtat Says:

I want to say that most of the time, people on buses in Israel are warm and wonderful. I was on the # 38 bus going to the Rova - a woman with a stroller and 7 packages wanted to get on, two men "flew" off the bus to help her. She could never have gotten on by herself. She knew she could bring all those bags and that someone would assist her. One of the men was Chareidi and one wasn't. Riding the buses in Yerushalayim is one of my favorite things - open your eyes and smell the roses.

30

 Jul 13, 2012 at 11:25 AM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:

Reply to #2  
ALTERG Says:

What a shame, why in the USA they can be buses seprete men & women (monroe bus, monsey trails, b"p willi bus) but in isreal no? & they still wane called them self a jewish state

you people never answer this: define "jewish"... I am jewish and don't hold of your shitas.

31

 Jul 13, 2012 at 01:02 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #13  
shvigger Says:

>>>>>>>> Nobody is stopping them. If there are so many people who want it, I'm sure it will be a thriving business for them.

The Minister of Transportation is stopping them. Get your facts straight before you comment. The frum community desperately wants to start their own bus company.

This crazy group of chareidim wants to start their own company with PUBLIC money. Get YOUR facts straight. They want the PUBLIC to pay for their nonsense. That is NOT the same as starting a PRIVATE company.

32

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