New York, NY – City Approves Metzitzah B’Peh Consent Form (full video NYC DOH debate)

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    The board of health before the vote on Sept 12 2012. Photo: Stefano Giovannini for VIN NewsNew York, NY -New York, NY – The New York City Department of Health (DOH) voted today to require parental consent when metzitzah b’peh is performed as part of a circumcision.

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    The measure passed by a vote of 9-0. The written consent must be obtained from the infant’s parent or guardian, and will obligate parents to acknowledge that the Department of Health recommends against the performance of metzitzah b’peh because of the risks associated with the practice, including the transmission of the herpes simplex virus and other infections.

    Since 2004, there have been 11 confirmed cases of the herpes simplex virus in newborn boys, all of which occurred following circumcisions that likely involved direct oral suction, according to the DOH. Two of the infants died. But defenders of the practice remain undeterred by the DOH’s ruling, and say they will ignore the new rule on religious grounds, secure in the knowledge that metzitzah b’peh has been performed “tens of thousands of times a year” throughout the world.

    Below video, the debate at NYC board of health on Sept. 13 2012. Video By Stefano Giovannini for VIN News

    “This is the government forcing a rabbi practicing a religious ritual to tell his congregants it could hurt their child,” Rabbi David Niederman, executive director of the United Jewish Organization of Williamsburg, told ABCNews.com. “If, God forbid, there was a danger, we would be the first to stop the practice.”

    Assemblyman Dov Hikind (D-Brooklyn) and New York State Senate candidate Simcha Felder also weighed in on the ruling, saying, “This attack isn’t just on metzitzah b’peh—a tradition practiced by most Orthodox Jews; it is an attack on Judaism as practiced for 3300 years. Telling parents that you require written consent from them before performing religious rites that the mayor finds objectionable thrusts the city deeper into a nanny-ocracy that has dubious implications. . . .The mayor has allowed his personal agenda to impact the lives of these Jewish children forever. This is how he enters the New Jewish Year.”

    “After Mayor Bloomberg finishes his third term, he should become the chancellor of Germany since these are the only two places that have a problem with circumcision,” remarked Isaac Abraham, a Jewish community leader in Williamsburg. “The Jewish community-at-large will continue to do what it has done for thousands of years without fear of German law coming to New York,” he added.

    The Charedi organization from Williamsburg Hisachdus HaRabunim (Central Rabbinical Congress of the United States and Canada) also issued a statement condemning today’s decision, and called the DOH’s decision “an unforgivable affront.”

    “The Orthodox Jewish community is outraged by today’s decision of the NYC Board of Health to regulate a sacred, foundational religious practice that has been observed for over 3,000 years,” the statement read. “We believe today’s action, which is based on the thinnest of contested anecdotal evidence, to be plainly unconstitutional and will be aggressively litigating this shocking governmental overreach. . . .The basis of Jewish law, the Torah, holds even a single life above all other concerns. No practice spanning thousands of years, undertaken by thousands annually, would be allowed in Jewish law if it were life-threatening.”

    Photos: Stefano Giovannini for VIN News

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    98 Comments
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    Lucky347
    Lucky347
    11 years ago

    Rachmuna Litzlon

    The-Macher
    The-Macher
    11 years ago

    This consent form will protect MBP and protect mohalim against lawsuits.

    Insider
    Insider
    11 years ago

    There’s gonna be a whole lotta mohelim and babies sitting in jail. Bloomberg better start ordeing from Meal Mart as soon as possible. Also, they will need mikvahs, sukkos, and esrogim and lulovim.

    11 years ago

    If in the future H’KB”H gives me the Bracha & the zchus of having a son and allowing me to make a Bris on him I will not sign a thing. The first person they “prosecute” for not signing a from will make Bloomy look even more stupid than he already does.

    Is it a coincidence that this anti-Orthodox verdict came down right before R”H? We ALL have what to work on.

    Bloomy will certainly have his verdict handed down within the next few days.

    Truth
    Truth
    11 years ago

    It’s unenforceable, except in hospitals. Hopefully the Agudah will change their mind and drop the lawsuit, because the lawsuit will make it a national issue and then all the antisemites (Jew & Non-Jew) will come out of the woodwork seeking to outlaw MBP & Milah itself!

    11 years ago

    Raboisy Siz Ek Velt!!!! Soda Ban-Metzitzah B’peh is on 1 page by them.

    ALTERG
    ALTERG
    11 years ago

    What a shame, a mayor that we voted in, let him burn in hell

    Flgroup
    Flgroup
    11 years ago

    There will be 0 compliance in Wsbg, BP, Crown Hts etc and Bloomy will go down history as another Jewish Born “soine yisroel” who wanted to destroy klal yisroel, he will not succeed, our forefathers had mesiras nefesh for yidishkeit and so is our generation determined to have mesiras nefesh

    FrumJew
    FrumJew
    11 years ago

    What’s creepy is that Bloomberg is Jewish. It always seems that we’re our own worst enemies. We need more achdus.

    misslydia128
    misslydia128
    11 years ago

    The Haredi rabbis are in the dark ages. Of course mouth to wound contact is dangerous. According to a top disease specialist who wrote on the issue, we don’t know how many infants contracted infection from this procedure because medical personnel are not required to report it.

    11 years ago

    No problem , come to sunny Lakewood for all your brisim, big shools , affordable catering, Plus other advantage’s to numerous to mention.

    Shlomo2
    Shlomo2
    11 years ago

    So sad that it took the government rather than Rabbonim to enact this perfectly sensible matter.

    So sad that people are so ignorant that they trust Rabbi Dovid Niederlander for information about disease transmission more than they trust infectious disease specialists.

    My2Cents
    My2Cents
    11 years ago

    Whats everyone crying about? Sign the form so you know the risks so if Chas V’shalom something happens no one can claim they didn’t know and no one can get in trouble or sued over it.

    For all of you saying that you will not sign the form, whats the reason for not signing?

    honestmodox
    honestmodox
    11 years ago

    If this law saws the live of 1 baby, it is worth it.

    StevenWright
    Member
    StevenWright
    11 years ago

    Doomsberg’s next edict will be to change the name of the city from New York to New Remburg.
    Heil Mike!

    SamEiger
    SamEiger
    11 years ago

    I think people are missing the point. If you believe as many do that MBP is integral to mila then the fact that it poses some danger is irrelevant. Mila itself poses some danger and klal yisroel is praised for having mesiras nefesh in mitzvas mila. So it is an integral part of the mitzva then the danger doesn’t chnange anyting.
    The danger is not new only our knowledge of it.
    If you hold its not part of the mitzvah then of courde the danger plays a role.
    So it really boils down to a halach shaila.
    Incidentally for this time of year see the MB who brings from a gadol who would blow shoifar with the blood still in his mouth.

    Adam_Neira
    Adam_Neira
    11 years ago

    Kudos to the NYC Board of Health and Mayor Bloomberg !

    CommonSense
    CommonSense
    11 years ago

    I dont understand the hoopla surrounding this.
    Why can’t you take 10 seconds before a Bris and sign a piece of paper saying that I understand that there might be evidence that it’s dangerous but I would still rather do it because I believe in its importance.
    We could even add the reading of this as another Kibbud like Krias Kesuba by a Chuppa…

    11 years ago

    I really don’t understand people who poo-poo the risk as being too small to care about. Do they not follow the same Torah that states that saving one (Jewish) life is equivalent to saving the world? They would uphold a Minhag instituted to save lives even after its known to have at best a neutral, and at worst a fatal, effect?

    We are supposed to be an Ahm Navon V’Chacham! What happened?!

    Stickpick
    Stickpick
    11 years ago

    Why the protests? What’s all the crying and bickering about? B”M and MB”P have not been outlawed. All the BOH want is that we sign to consent to mb”p, in fact it’s in favor of all. If ch”v something were to happen only the parents can be blamed. Parents should anyhow always thoroughly investigate mohelim b4 bris and mohelim Must be responsible to inform parents if they have an issue.

    in other words is all about being responsible and not suing other parties.
    basic common sense.

    sheyash-boi
    sheyash-boi
    11 years ago

    All Hasham wants is, to test our strength.
    We had showed it to him in the past we will show it to him now again, I’m ready to be the first one. We won’t sell our torah of thousands of years to Michael Bloomberg. How low is this lowlife? BRIS MILAH IS NOT A SODA BOTTLE…

    clear-thinker
    clear-thinker
    11 years ago

    To those who oppose the new law….Once again you are overreacting. There is no banning of anything. There is a consent form that is to be signed by the parents. Why are you so opposed? Is it because you want to show who is boss, or is it some geuine concern? So far, noone has written cogently about a real concern. There is truly nothing wrong with informed consent. Hate the mayor all you want. Call him an anti-semite. You have freedom of speech in this country. BUT PLEASE state what your problem is with the law that has passed. Don’t tell me mbp is needed for a Bris. People can argue that, but noone is stopping it.

    11 years ago

    I think this is a good thing, the people who don’t like it can move out of NYC. There will be more room for the more modern Yiddin.

    tuly1
    tuly1
    11 years ago

    Hey King Blumberg how about getting consent signed by all New Yorkers allowing the NYPD to carry guns they kill more innocent people then MBP

    joseph
    joseph
    11 years ago

    The New York City Board of Health voted today to regulate Bris Milah and specifically Metzitza B’Peh. And like the Jewish community has been warning (and the apologist were until now denying), this is only a first step in the government attempting to outright ban this vital part of Bris Milah. Joel A. Forman, professor of pediatrics at Mount Sinai, one of the nine members of the NYC BOH who voted to regulate Bris Milah specifically said after the vote today that he wants the government to outright ban MBP. He is quoted in the N.Y. Times (currently on their website) as saying “It’s crazy that we allow this to go on.”

    The new NYC DOH regulation will be widely ignored, in any event. As the N.Y. Times reported today, more than 200 Orthodox Rabbis have ordered their adherents not to comply with the regulation because they believe it is a mandatory part of the practice of the Jewish religion.

    And it is utterly uneforceable, as the BOH doesn’t have the legal ability to station inspectors in shuls to witness Bris Milahs. And no one from the Chareidi and Chasidic community will maaser anyone. So the BOH won’t even know 1) who the mohel was and 2) whether or not MBP was performed

    joseph
    joseph
    11 years ago

    1. The DOH regulation isn’t even a law. It is just a regulation passed by the local directors of the city health board. Even if it is violated, it is not breaking the law. It will result in getting a “ticket” with a monetary fine. It is similar to getting a parking ticket or a restaurant getting a health violation fine. Except the city can tow the car or take away a restaurant’s license if it doesn’t pay the fine. Here the city cannot stop a Mohel from continuing to perform his religious function even if he doesn’t pay the fine(s).

    As the N.Y. Times is reporting today, “failure to comply merely may result in warning letters or fines to the mohelim. Enforcement, though, will be based on investigation of specific complaints and herpes cases, not spot checks or raids, and there are no mandatory punishments, said Dr. Jay K. Varma, the city’s deputy commissioner for disease control.”

    2. It is illegal as it is unconstitutional. The government is constitutionally prohibited from regulating a religious ritual. And the Agudas Yisroel is preparing a lawsuit to overturn the regulation.

    joseph
    joseph
    11 years ago

    3. It is unenforceable. The government cannot place department of health inspectors in synagogues to observe if the mohel performs MBP or not. At most, they need to ask the parents or mohel. And they generally won’t even know who the mohel was. And even if they ask, neither the parent nor the mohel have to answer or even talk to the DOH or any government officials (it is called the Fifth Amendment) unless the city bothers to get a court subpoena every time they want to investigate. And they need to demonstrate to a judge they have good reason; they cannot simply subpoena hundreds of mohelim.

    11 years ago

    This is not just about signing a form. Any parent that signs the form, and if there C’V is a problem after the Bris, the City Social Services will come in and take all of the children away, Hashem Yishmor, because they will have evidence that these parents agreed to do something dangerous. This sets a horrible precedence.

    Shtarker
    Active Member
    Shtarker
    11 years ago

    Congratulations to the BoH for taking this courageous action and for showing restraint.

    To the sliver of the Jewish people for whom MbP is essential, the ruling is meaningless, since no one will report violations and there is no other enforcement mechanism. For most of the rest of us the regulation is also meaningless, since the vast majority of Jews living outside the chareidi/chassidish world are not likely to engage the services of a mohel who performs MbP (and such a mohel is unlikely to seek customers from outside his community anyway.)

    This ruling protects unaffiliated Jews who want to do the right thing for their sons and have little knowledge of milah or mohelim. These people deserve to know what their prospective mohel intends to do in order to make an informed decision.

    Playing the antisemite card here is senseless. By playing the antisemite card every time someone does something we don’t like, we dilute the evil of antisemitism and dishonor the memory of our people who have fallen to true antisemitism.

    Positive
    Positive
    11 years ago

    Sad day! The point is, it never happened before the secular government should push their nose into religious practices, no matter if it’s “only” signing a consent form, we all know where this is heading, he wants to start with “only” a consent..
    Klal yisroel will not bow, like we didn’t bow for past thousands of years, not for Paroh, not for Haman, nor will we bow for Bloomie, when it comes to religious matters we will do what our “TORAH” authorities say, not what a secular apikores has to say.

    11 years ago

    After this debate, every death of a jewish child from a frum family from a viral infection during the first month or so will be screened by the DoHealth to determine any possible linkage with M’Peh. Pediatric nurses will be alerted to monitor for this possibility. Don’t be surprised if the number of suspect cases climbs dramatically within the first year. The next step will be to post the name of any mohel suspected of causing such infections.

    ShmutzVesh
    ShmutzVesh
    11 years ago

    Call me an idiot!!! but what is the big deal???? let em sign it! they arent banning milah!!! relax max!!!

    11 years ago

    Thank you Mr. Bloomberg. My neighbor’s son got herpes from this and he was so sick you’d never seen anything like it before. He’s doing fairly well now, but will always have this virus in his system. If this law protects just one of our kinder, it will be a fair law. Thank you again and L’shanah tova.

    DanielBarbaz
    DanielBarbaz
    11 years ago

    So many people posting here, are acting as if MBP is being outlawed. All that is being asked is that parents sign a consent indicating that they are aware of the potential health problems.

    Would someone please explain what is wrong with signing this form?

    I would also like to know the origin of the custom of the mohel making oral–genital contact.

    Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

    Yerachmiel
    Yerachmiel
    11 years ago

    William (Hillel) Handler, a Neteurei Kartanik is a shakran who defended Yisroel Moshe Weingarten (Yimach Shmo) even though this man confessed giluy arayos with his daughter to Chida Weiss. On the Zeb Brenner show he was mevazeh talmidei chachamim including R. Bezalel Rakow zatzal rav hair of Gateshead, R. Chaim Duvid (Chida) Weis Satmar Gavad of Antwerp, R. Benzion Wosner, R Benzion Wosner, R. Chaim Leibish Rottenberg, R. Chatzkel Gold (former satmar dayan of Monsey). He called them all “Lightweight rabbonim” http://wp.me/pFbfD-uM. He also singled out r. Chaim Leibish Rottenberg to say he was a rebbele with a shteeble. R. Rottenberg is Mora d’asra of Beis Hamedrash Netzach Yisroel of Monsey, a renowned scholar, and posek of Bikur Cholim and Hatzalah. http://dusiznies.blogspot.com/2011/02/rabbi-handler-on-zev-brenner-show-calls.html

    So I ask you, why should we now start trusting him. He is just looking for an excuse to get on a TV camera and maybe get arrested so he can scream Zionist Nazis.

    Reb Yid
    Reb Yid
    11 years ago

    It’s another breach in the wall of Torah. To require yidden to acknowledge that following halacha might kill you is certainly not a benign request. I’m sure that many anti-Semitic edicts started out small, like this. This is a classic example of a slippery slope.

    Facts1
    Facts1
    11 years ago

    They are very clear that they plan to re-evaluate over time, which in Government means that they will further regulate and restrict.

    They were also very clear that they would like to ban it altogether, its just because it’s so “sensitive” that they are starting with a consent form. Once the consent form is a fact, they could advance to demand more regulation in a “sensitive” way.

    We all know where this is heading to.

    Open-Your-Eyes
    Open-Your-Eyes
    11 years ago

    The Chutzpah of this law is dictating us how to do and how to prepare for a mitzvah!!! Before a mitzvah you DON’T sign consents!!!

    Imagine soon a ba’al toke’ah will need to sign some stupid consent before blowing Shofar because maybe the one who used the shofar before had hurpies!!! The same goes for Esrog since many people touched it and it wasn’t sanitized afterwards!!! This is insane!!! Shame on all who understand this!!!

    Facts1
    Facts1
    11 years ago

    Dr. Joel A. Forman, a member of the DOH, said that “it’s crazy that we allow this (MBP) to go on in my opinion”. Also said that he wants something stronger, and received a commitment that this is only the beginning.

    Dr. Sandro Galea, a member of the DOH, tried comparing it to an unnecessary life threatening medical procedure, sarcastically suggesting that we are allowing this to be preformed to a child under the cover of just a consent form.

    With that approach from the DOH, do we even stand a chance?

    Facts1
    Facts1
    11 years ago

    Interesting how the “entire” board of health was recently appointed by Mayor Bloomberg, they are just a rubber stamp for him.

    My2Cents_
    My2Cents_
    11 years ago

    So what is wring with signing the form you ask ? …

    Mazel Tov ! you had a boy … now sign the form and we will allow the mohel to make a bris ( infringing on religion) same as i cant practice being a muslim without signing that i understand eating humus is not healthy

    but let forget about that a minute , the bris goes thru all is fine and 10 years later by mistake your child burns himself with pot of hot water .. DCS comes and says we want to take away his children .. you say . ARE YOU NUTS .. it was a accident ..CITY says no it was not .. He is a danger to his Kids and we have proof of it … your LAWYER says go ahead proof you case ..CITY says you see this form he signed …he KNEW that MBP is dangerous ..and yet he signed to do it on a New born baby … He is a DANGER to his kids
    Judge says let me see that paper .. Reads it for 2 minutes … RULES that the CITY has more then probable to take your kids AWAY

    DONT YOU ALL SEE WHERE THIS IS GOING !!! this is a mitzva that if not done correctly means you have to do it again .. so you want your kids to wait 18 years for that .

    As for DR.. who is a RUSHA …. his GREAT FATHER IN LAW must be turning in his kever

    Wise-Guy
    Wise-Guy
    11 years ago

    Simple summary as to what’s wrong with this law:

    1) The DOH is likely not going to stop meddling with the affair of Milah.
    Even if this new regulation was 100% sensible, it’s still a breach. And that usually is the prelude of “The dam bursting”. (“A crack in the dyke”.)
    Give it a year, decade or score. They’re not done with Regulating” circumcision.

    The fierce opposition to this law may forestall future (completely unacceptable) interference into Bris-Milah practice.
    Therefore the anti-regulation crusade inadvertently benefits ALL Torah Jews.

    2) It’s hypocritical.
    There are many other “activities” out there that pose a greater risk of injury and death to children.
    As I asked in the past, why aren’t they requiring a “permission form” from parents before they allow their kids to ride bikes? And that’s a FREQUENT activity!
    The answer is: they are both statistically low enough a risk to permit. Except that MBP is a much lower risk.
    And yes, precautions (such as wearing a helmet) should be taken.

    Continued:

    Wise-Guy
    Wise-Guy
    11 years ago

    (For MBP I think the best precaution is to check on recently circumcised babies that the Mohel performed. If after approx. a month the baby is symptom-free, then the risk is below minuscule.)

    It’s only because MBP has the appearance, to the secular mind, as primitive and/or vulgar (much like circumcision itself, or using chickens for Kaporos) that they are “picking on” MBP.

    Btw, I’m still frequently shocked at how many children (and adults) ride bikes without helmets.

    3) The arguments and debates going on for months, especially in the comments of VIN, have made me realize the crux of the problem. It’s almost amusing.

    Those (serious Jews) that hold that MBP has no real basis in Halachah, and have concluded that MBP is an archaic and unnecessary practice that has remained from the times when people didn’t know better, are opposed to it’s practice even if the risk was 1 in a million. I would tend to agree with them. (But I would still be opposed to government meddling.)

    Those that have incorporated in their lives a strong adherence to Kabbalah and the writings of the AriZal and Mesorah in all things, consider MBP extremely important and integral.

    Continued:

    Wise-Guy
    Wise-Guy
    11 years ago

    It’s as important as not eating Kitniyos on Pesach or Cholov-stam and practicing Tvillas-Ezra, and more stringent than Gebrochts or Kapporos.
    To them having MBP eliminated is much worse than prohibiting Bike-riding or wearing Shtreimlech!

    Why do so many people not have the common-sense to look at this issue with this view-point in mind?!
    Isn’t it practical and prudent to always put yourself “in the other person’s shoes” before engaging in argumentation?

    As the saying goes, “The problem with common-sense is that it’s not too common”…

    aleph
    aleph
    11 years ago

    Say baby born first day of sukkos. Next question to “ask the rabbi”, am I allowed to sign this consent form on chol hamoad? And if I didn’t for some reason, and my within walking distance mohel is refusing to do mbp what now?” Just pointing out that even if we were to follow this directive, it’s not always that simple as some are suggesting.

    Extremewx
    Extremewx
    11 years ago

    I will not sign when I have a son because I will not allow a mohel to endanger my child by putting his mouth anywhere on him. This isn’t halacha – The end

    mugsisme
    mugsisme
    11 years ago

    Maybe we should also sign a consent form for:
    Eating matza
    Mikvah
    Lighting menorah
    Yom tov meals
    Burning chometz
    Dipping challah in salt
    Drinking arba kosos at the seder
    Eating honey on rosh hashana
    Staying up all night learnng before shavuous

    11 years ago

    Don’t be naive.
    Those who talk about the form protecting the mohel or anybody from liability-there wasn’t a problem of anybody being sued and why would the BOH want to protect a mohel ? Secondly, those who feel MPH is dangerous-don’t do it to your kids. The bottom line is the BOH is interfering in religion and it’s a slippery slope from here.

    waaaaaaah
    waaaaaaah
    11 years ago

    Funny. I looked in the Yoreh Deah, and while the Mechaber mentions Metzitzah, nowhere does he mention the word ‘Peh’. Neither does the Rama. Or any other of the commentaries. So. Anyone want to tell me exactly WHY this is against halacha or torah or whatever it is?