Spring Valley, NY – Orthodox Rabbi Wants Metzitzah B’peh Regulated in Rockland County

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    Rabbi Professor Moshe Dovid TendlerSpring Valley, NY – Just days after the New York City Department of Health voted to require parents to sign a consent form notifying them of the risks of metzitzah b’peh during a circumcision, Rabbi Moshe David Tendler of Monsey, an internationally renowned expert on Jewish law and medical ethics, is urging Rockland officials to do the same, unless Rockland rabbis who endorse metzitzah b’peh tell their followers to stop the practice.

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    “They should use the carrot-and-stick approach,” Rabbi Tendler told The Journal News (http://lohud.us/RuiNl7). “If you don’t stop, we will do what New York City did and pass a law.”

    Rabbi Tendler, who holds a degree in microbiology, maintains that oral suction of the incision is not required by halacha in the performance of a circumcision. “It’s a hoax perpetuated by some of the rabbis. It’s a prefabricated lie. . . they don’t appreciate the fact that this exposes the child to danger, danger that the child is being exposed to for no reason.”

    Agudath Israel spokesman Rabbi Avi Shafran countered Rabbi Tendler’s remarks saying, “There are many rabbis who consider metzitzah b’peh to be unnecessary. But (there are) many rabbis, including in Rockland County, I assure you, who feel quite strongly otherwise. ” Rabbi Shafran added that this issue is “a fundamental First Amendment issue, not one that Rabbi Tendler’s point of view on the particular practice here can be allowed to obscure.”

    Agudath Israel has said it plans to sue the City of New York over its ruling on metzitzah b’peh.


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    164 Comments
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    sambayon
    sambayon
    11 years ago

    Because of the stink this oicher yisrael made a few years back we have this assault on mitzvas milah

    MistahKurtz
    MistahKurtz
    11 years ago

    Anybody who wants to claim that metzizah b’peh is yehareg v’al ya’avor should ask himself whose life is he sacrificing.

    11 years ago

    It doesn’t matter how many Rabbis say it’s integral. It’s already been Paskened in previous generations to not be so. The Gemarah doesn’t say it is. The Mishnah doesn’t say it is. Someone made up a Halachah and now children will be killed to support it. So much for our Torah being an object of admiration to the Goyim. Was Moshe not such a good Navi after all?

    volfie
    volfie
    11 years ago

    There is no one in any segment of the orthodox jewish world that knows halacha and biology better than Rabbi Dr. Tendler.Tendler is not afraid to get into the middle of a politically charged issue and as usual will be vilified by those who
    reject him because of his YU affiliation.

    mirrerbochur
    mirrerbochur
    11 years ago

    Tendler……… We knew his opinion already!!!

    11 years ago

    I’m sure he’s making his father-in-law Z’TZ”L proud 🙁

    11 years ago

    If only one doctor would claim that it is a sekana (danger)
    and hundred doctors would claim that it is not a sekana, the halacha would
    require you to follow the one doctor. In the mbp case you have thousands of
    doctors claiming that it is a sofek nefoshes. What difference does it make
    that we have been doing it for thousands of years?

    LionofZion
    LionofZion
    11 years ago

    Of course there is no excuse Meziza Bpeh. It is a Sakana to the baby and needs to be outlawed. When it comes to medical issues, the first stop is with the doctors, and the preponderance of doctors are clear. Putting a mouth to a wound on another person is not a good idea. End of discussion.

    11 years ago

    Kol hakovod to Rav Tendler, shlita, for once again providing an informed and educated perspective to this issue. While some may disagree, you cannot question his credentials compared with most of the rabbonim who lack his understanding of the underlying medical concerns.

    shredready
    shredready
    11 years ago

    finally a voice of sanity and a brave man who will stick up for the children against enormous pressure a real tzattuik

    FrumJew
    FrumJew
    11 years ago

    For the record, I don’t think metzitzah b’peh should be done. But the more important issue is, once the government starts down this path, they won’t stop. Attacks on religious freedom tend to start with valid concerns and end with theocracy – or atheocracy.

    11 years ago

    Interesting that Rav Tendlers sons disagree with him on this point.

    11 years ago

    Wait, before you people villify him for his viewpoint, don’t you think he has more knowledge than most of you? He is a microbiologist, for crying out loud! So he should know what he is talking about unlike a lot of ignorant commentators here.

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    Rabbi Tendler is so right that he makes the pro-mbp fanatics nervous, as in comments #1 ,2 and 3.

    maxedout
    maxedout
    11 years ago

    to numbers 1,2, and 3: I think that you three need to learn a little more before you knock a talmid chochom. It’s aseres yemei tshuva – obviously you ignoramuses have no idea what tshuva means.

    missyid
    missyid
    11 years ago

    I can not believe how people here speak about a reputable Rav who has a Doctorate in microbiology, which for you less than knowledgeable folks, .means he not only knows plenty in halacha but has a complete understanding in disease transmission.

    Just because there are extremist charedim who have their heads in the sand and are in complete denial over a minhag and let their “frummie egos” get in the way does not negate the positive reputation of Rav Tendler. How anyone can put MBP before the concept of sakanas nifashos over a child is ridiculous.

    Number one and 2 should certainly be ashamed of themselves.

    yosher
    yosher
    11 years ago

    Reb Moshe Zt’l regarded Rabbi Tendler with profound respect and love. As for Reb Moshe’s opinion about the necessity of Metziza Bepeh, please see Igros Moshe volume bet (2), page 451, left column, 2nd paragraph. This is merely a Hungarian expression of kanuus that has encouraged countless less frum Jews to have their children’s brisis in the hospital, generally toch shmoneh, leaving the baby with a questionable status. Furthermore informed consent is mandated before every surgical procedure done in America, why should a reasonably suspect procedure be exempt?

    11 years ago

    My nephew contracted herpes from this procedure and will have it for life. The same Rabbi who passed it to the other babies gave it to mine. If the health department is not going to stop it, then at least test the Mohel and have him give the results to the parents before the bris. Had we known the Mohel was sick, we would have chosen another one who did not test positive for the virus.

    Mark Levin
    Mark Levin
    11 years ago

    Nebach nebach nebach a kid is niftar from Herpes and the goyishe yiddin go crazy over it ESPECIALLY when the facts come out and we find out it WASN’T from the MP but rather from a sibling or something else.

    MAYERFREUND
    MAYERFREUND
    11 years ago

    See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

    כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח”כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח”כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
    שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

    please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

    11 years ago

    Can someone please explain why is it a problem for all Mohalim to do mandatory (blood test or what ever) testing a few times a year.

    For those who argue that mohalim never use to take the test well, nobody can say that all mohalim today are the same as they where in the olden times.

    ונשמרתם את נפשותיכם is a דאוריתא.

    BigMasmid
    BigMasmid
    11 years ago

    Kol hakovod to Rav Tendler, shlita, for once again providing an informed and educated perspective to this issue, as usual your opinions are not the opinions of the Torah and the teaching of Chazal.

    Thanks for showing us your true colors. It’s the time of the year that we try to do Teshuva you too Tendler can take this opportunity and get closer to Hashem, I’m sure he will forgive you for your educated opinions that are not governed by the Torah.

    .

    bubii
    bubii
    11 years ago

    The world my friends is upside down the normal are crazy and the crazies are normal in the eyes of the hassidim,as the saying goes do as he says because he is crazy the crazies terrorize the sane people into submisiion

    Phil16723
    Phil16723
    11 years ago

    I think it is sad, pathetic, and very telling, that those of you who would DARE claim MBP is needed or even valid, hide behind childish aliases, or “dis” a gadol hador like Rav Tendler, or saying what needs to be said. Those of you who are? seeking to “embarass” and slander a fellow yid publicly, by name? Worry about your own portions, murderers.

    Rav Tendler has it right. Giving Herpes or other diseases does NOT equal preventing infection.

    And yes – if even ONE Mohel MIGHT have Herpes, none should perform the ritual by mouth.

    It’s just common sense.

    Phineas
    Phineas
    11 years ago

    If any of you want to disagree with a Rav who knows volumes more than you do, at least do so respectfully.

    GEULA
    GEULA
    11 years ago

    #19 if he;s a microbiologist and knows better than our sages then he’s best off paskening on university campuses and not for the chareidi world. This is an exact example how profession and secular studies can take the neshama out of your torah and yehadus. We are affected by a plague called college education (which I too am guilty of but atleast I’m aware of the weakness and work to counterbalance it). There is no neshama in professional studies and this man is affected by his mircrobiologist knowledge. God knows a lot more than the microbiologist; unless of course if those of you disagreeing (which would make sense) are irreligious or just wear your kippas cus you were told to do so not becaue of the sense of “ol malchus shamayim”

    GEULA
    GEULA
    11 years ago

    RN:
    please don’t name us extremist chareidim for sticking up for an age old halacha. Most of you commenting here remind me of what was written on the eirav rav. Please remember to difrentiate between a doctorate in microbiology and our torah. The only way college education had become mutar for us yidden was that we remain with the neshama of the torah in our lives. For all these professional studies although important; have nothing with the torah and have a great power to remove the torah. If you look into any of R’ Hirsch’s sefarim; it is full of philosofy and abnormally deep where you can clearly see the neshama and strong belief for our mesorah and halacha. A man like that was able to preach torah im derech eretz. Rav Tendler is a mechutzaf and a perfect example of the epidemic sweeping across our generation of pple running for college education but forgetting that the biggest microbiologist and psychologist and what not, is HKBH. and his word. In shamayim ; they will roll at the fact that anybody could’ve respected him more cus he has his degree. And a true talmid chacham would never have the am haaretzishkeit to pasken like that. Oy lanu, if we would follow in this apikorsus.

    UseYourHead
    UseYourHead
    11 years ago

    Anyone who can defame Rabbi Tendler on Tzom Gedaliah shouldn’t waste their time fasting.

    rebchuna
    rebchuna
    11 years ago

    all i know of this “rav” tendler, is that when my mother lay dying in hospital, the goishe nurses brought us tendlers books proving that the machines can be turned off r”l!!
    when a matter of a beard came up in a us court, he gave evidence under oath that reb moshe zt”l shaved!!

    11 years ago

    There is historical evidence that Metzizah B’peh has sickened babies during the last 200 years. Metzizah B’peh is not a commandment in the Torah. Rabbi Moshe Sofer, the Chasam Sofer, suspended the practice because the babies were most certainly getting sick!

    Moshe10
    Moshe10
    11 years ago

    What kind of languish is he using? “Lies… Hoex…” .
    He must have a deep hatred to Robanim and Yiden who are frumer then him, Like the Maskilum form the 18 and 19th centry

    ChareidiMan
    ChareidiMan
    11 years ago

    I am not a Mumcha on this subject at all, but i do know that here is a man that comes out with his opinion and puts his name on the line and he is getting heat.

    90% of Rabunnim today have no guts to make a call on anything that is 1% controversy and you guys have a problem with him? Since when can he not have a different opinion as you? Why when someone doe snot agree with you, he is automatic a loser and everything else?

    There has been non kosher meat sold in our butcher stores and Rabbis came out against it and they were shut up by the big boys, there have been molesters roaming the community for years and the people (including Nuchem Rosenberg) that expose them have gotten heat and you wonder why our generation is down the tubes?

    Mi Sumchu L’ish? How dare you call a man with a halachic opinion such bad names? Satmar Rabbi was against Israel and its obvious right now that he was dead wrong, why don’t you call him these names? Why is he not entitles to his view?

    Yiddishkeit is in the dumps because no one cares for the truth but for the power I would take his view against Niddermans view anytime of the day

    My2Cents_
    My2Cents_
    11 years ago

    I see we have a bunch of doctors here … all say metzizah b’peh is dangerous

    WELL LET STOP FOR A MINUTE AND GET SOME FACTS HERE

    1.NYC made the flimsiest case for this . in a court of law this evidence would not stand
    2. the FACT is that for the last 70 years in America ( not going back to so called primitive days – of 100s of years ago ) most Rabbonim did not hold from Tendler in regards to metzizah b’peh
    3. for those holding that al pi ZOHAR it is a must , HOW DARE YOU SAY to use a STRAW
    4. in the last 70 years there were tens of thousands who did have metzizah b’peh and we don’t see a epidemic of herpes in our community
    5. the FACT is you have a bigger chance getting a infection in the hospital then getting Herpes from metzizah b’peh

    NOW THAT the FACTS are on the table … DEAL with them …
    and dont give me that its pikuach nefesh …since it definitely is not

    11 years ago

    EddieSeptember 12, 2012 11:30 PM
    DT, do you know how widespread this practice is when performing Bris? I was under the impression that a minority of Mohelim use it, but it could be that in fact it is much more than that?

    Daas TorahSeptember 13, 2012 12:29 AM
    my understanding is that in the Litvishe world is is viewed differently than the chassidic world. For example in the old days when a woman would be in the hospital 2 weeks after giving birth with her baby – the hospitals did not allow MBP. Rav Moshe and others said that it is better to have the bris on the eight without MBP then to have it after the 8th day with MBP. The Chassidic world disagrees and asserts that there is no mila without MBP and thus they pushed off mila until after the 8th day so that there would be MBP.

    Sociologist
    Sociologist
    11 years ago

    Rabosi

    Let’s get a grip on the matter.

    * Rav Tendler … is a world class scientist (microbiologist) and talmid chacham. Those are two indisputable facts.

    * When our sages of centuries ago recommended purging the wound of bris milah it was thought that by drawing blood out of a wound you would reduce side effects of the surgical procedure. There were probably side effects because this was long before “germ theory” and the mohel (who was probably the father) did not wash his hands or the knife before the bris.

    * Now that “germ theory” is no longer a theory we know that you have to thoroughly was your hands and done gloves before any surgical procedure and the site of the procedure is disinfected. After the procedure a sterile bandage is applied.

    * No matter who the sage was they DID NOT KNOW what caused infections. Now we do! A bris milah is about surgically removing the foreskin and allowing a flow of blood. In the past century Rabbonim devised ways of maintaining the practice of metziza with out putting a “dirty” mouth on the wound. Would any poster here want a surgeon to use orally suck on a surgical incision done to them or their children? I don’t think

    ABlogger
    ABlogger
    11 years ago

    It’s quite interesting how some commentators turn this debate on it’s head criticizing others for not respecting Rabbi Tendler and his opinion. It is actually this vermin Tendler who’s forcing his opinion on everyone, without yielding any respect to other Rabbunim and their opinions. His geyus and disregard to other Rabbunim led him to become a Musser R”L by inciting the goyim against fellow Jews and seeking the goyim’s punishment for other Jews who perform the mitzveh of milah the way the were thought by their predecessors and Rabbunim

    sissel613
    sissel613
    11 years ago

    Oy, Reb Moishe זצ״ל is not shepping yiddishe nachas. Not the first time he has been in the midst of controversy or became controversial by his own doing. We follow gedolim greater than he.

    UseYourHead
    UseYourHead
    11 years ago

    It’s important to note that the metzitzah b’peh controversy involves two related, but entirely separate, issues.

    1) Whether or not metzitzah b’peh is required at all. It is clear that many highly reliable poskim – both from previous generations and contemporary ones as well – maintain that it most certainly is not. However, there are those who maintain that it is required, or at least desirable.

    2) Whether or not it is “okay” to have government regulation of the milah procedure to any extent.

    It must be pointed at that there are many who hold metzitzah b’peh is NOT required, yet are strongly opposed to having any government involvement in the matter. And this is not a contradiction at all.

    Yerachmiel
    Yerachmiel
    11 years ago

    R. Tendler is a worthy son-in-law of R. Moshe. Like R. Moshe he pays attention to halachah and to the facts on the ground. Most importantly he has the stubborn courage of his convictions unlike the spineless rabbonim in the Yeshivish world and the RCA who assur MBP because of health risk but defer to chasidim in fighting the health department for saying exactly what they believe.

    If you believe MBP is dangerous you have to be opposed to it. You can’t just say, to each their own. MBP is not necessary for milah, even according its practitioners. If you want proof inquire about what they do when an adult has milah for geirus. Not even chasidish mohelim do MBP in that case. Yet milah for geirus is even more important than milah for others.

    Anon Ibid Opcit
    Anon Ibid Opcit
    11 years ago

    It must not be regulated.
    It needs to be prohibited outright.

    This disgusting medieval practice kills and cripples Jewish babies. It creates an enormous chillul Hashem. It convinces Gentiles that Jews don’t care about their children’s lives

    11 years ago

    No one can argue with Rav Tendler’s own statement that he is a great talmud chacham. Therefore when the sanhedrin will shortly be instituted by Mashiach, the sanhedrin will will be able to do justice to Rav Tendler and rule that he is deed a “zukain-mamreh”. Amen

    plumhome
    plumhome
    11 years ago

    Antwerp

    OYVY2
    OYVY2
    11 years ago

    Rav Tendler is a very educated and respected man. Metzitah B’peh is not a halacha rather a minhag, so let’s not get so excited. The New York law does not say it can not be done, it states that permission is required from parents, what is wrong with that ?
    Agudah should again not go around flaming fires and suing the city of NY there are so many issues to be addressed. Do what you and your minhag and your rov think and give kavod.

    YC123
    YC123
    11 years ago

    As has already been noted Tendler (out of respect for his shver z”l I have omitted the title he truly deserves) testified that “with the rarest exception, all people who consider themselves to be meticulously observant in Jewish law” believe that trimming the beard is not only allowed but indeed is required before certain holidays and events. Anyone that knows anything about halacha and customs knows that this is a complete lie (unless the existence of chasidim is on the “rarest exception” – which is not the case in spite of how much he wishes it to be). He further went on to testify that since Jewish law requires obedience to the civil law of the state, including prison regulations, Jewish law would also require a Jewish prisoner to shave. I suppose he would also have approved of the Nazis forcibly cutting off beards since after all it was dinah d’malchusa so it was an aveirah for anyone under Nazi rule to actually wear a beard. B”H Judge Stewart turned out to be a bigger talmud chacham (and certainly a bigger mentch) and ruled that US law not only didn’t require that the prisoner shave but actually mandated that the prison accommodate his desire to have a beard.

    11 years ago

    Whats the chiddush? all the talmidim of the modern orthodox Rov must continue to “modernize” yidishkeit by mocking mesorah, if they dont they will just be Chareidiy…eventually they will be mattir some issurey deoiraysa to stay relevent and modern.. nu nu who cares.

    GEULA
    GEULA
    11 years ago

    To prolifer and all those advocating for Mr. Tendler. You are all a bunch of Am Haaratzim. This is not a case of pikuach nefesh where it’s doche deoreisah. It is not “more important” to god what you little minded blabber mouths on a shallow news blogging site called VIN have stated that it needs to overtake halacha. God has given us a torah and with it a moshe and the rest of the leaders. Moshe had no college education. Moshe was pure and competent and from this we learn that we have competent rabbanim and leaders a bit more respected than Mr Tendler that have based their decision on age old basis for metzitza b’pe. This whole story is a modern orthodox ploy where their whole life is based and played like a multiple choice test. Selectively. I will keep what is comfortable for me and how it works best for me. You are clearly affected by the ruach hatuma /media that is all out in our generation. Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you’ll know why Metzitza B’pe is the way to do it.

    11 years ago

    I heard that years ago, women and babies often stayed in hospitals for up to two weeks. The brissim were often performed in hospitals. Rav Moshe Feintstein was asked, should the bris in the hospital be performed on the eighth day, without metiztzah b’peh, which the hospitals did not permit? Rav Moshe paskened, yes. (Accordingly, a bris milah without MBP is kosher. MBP is not an actual component of the bris milah.)

    The Chassidim, on the other hand, insisted on MBP, and delayed their brissim past the eighth day, until mothers and babies were released from the hospitals.

    I read this on the Daat Torah blog. Can anyone confirm this?

    And if correct, why would Rav Reuven Feinstein sign the 200-rabbi kol koreh insisting on MBP? Does he hold differently than his father? Does Rav Dovid Feinstein not signing mean that he holds by his father?

    SandraM
    SandraM
    11 years ago

    The question for me, is not yes Metzizah or no Metzizah.

    Every parent should make an educated choice about what type of bris they want to have for their child. The information, both medical and Halachic, should be made available, so that we can make a responsible decision. Rabbi Tendler, with his vast knowledge in science and in Halacha serves an important role.

    What I find very disturbing and shocking, is the unfortunate language that Rabbi Tendler chose to use: “It’s a hoax perpetuated by some of the rabbis. It’s a prefabricated lie.“ This type of language is inflammatory, undignified and easily subject to gross misinterpretation. It has no place in dialogue or teaching. It is the language that anti-Semites have used and use. It is beyond shocking that someone in Jewish leadership, let alone a rabbi, would stoop to this level. Even as we are passionate about our views, remember the saying of our sages: `Wise men, be exceedingly careful with your words…

    On another note, the meddling of the state into private religious practice is very worrying. We are on the proverbial slippery slope, on a dangerous trajectory limiting more and more of our private lives.

    Wise-Guy
    Wise-Guy
    11 years ago

    Continued:

    Although these days most of us don’t grasp the lofty concepts of the Kabbalistic sages, we trust their judgment. (They were “authenticated” in their days…) So if they wrote something is important, it’s important!

    3) Many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that MBP, prepensely and purposely by mouth, is indeed very important.
    Of course, they would discontinue this practice if there was a significant risk, but they consider that the facts on the ground prove that the risk is minuscule. (4 tragic accidents in 11 years, out of well over 100,000 circumcisions.)
    Naturally, we must now take the added intensified precaution of monitoring the Mohel’s health-status. But if we would discontinue anything, based on such low-risk statistics, we would never let any of our children ride bikes, or worse, skateboards! (Even with a helmet.)
    Ask any pediatrician (that’s been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP’s ratio.

    Continued:

    Wise-Guy
    Wise-Guy
    11 years ago

    Continued:

    Ask any pediatrician (that’s been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP’s ratio.
    Therefore, this commotion about MBP seems to be disingenuous. Before focusing on a religious practice (albeit it might appear to be archaic to most people) why not require parent’s to sign a form before allowing their children to use roller-blades?! And shouldn’t Pogo-sticks be completely outlawed?
    No more bikes, trikes, Football, Base-ball. Ice-skates, Swimming, Trampolines, etc. etc. The list is endless.
    We allow our children to play Soccer, and we allow them to gain the metaphysical benefit of MBP.

    Not to mention how insulting it is to imply that the Orthodox Jews care less about their children’s safety than the rest of the populace.
    Nothing is further from the truth.