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Spring Valley, NY - Orthodox Rabbi Wants Metzitzah B’peh Regulated in Rockland County

Published on: September 19, 2012 02:08 PM
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Rabbi Professor Moshe Dovid TendlerRabbi Professor Moshe Dovid Tendler

Spring Valley, NY - Just days after the New York City Department of Health voted to require parents to sign a consent form notifying them of the risks of metzitzah b’peh during a circumcision, Rabbi Moshe David Tendler of Monsey, an internationally renowned expert on Jewish law and medical ethics, is urging Rockland officials to do the same, unless Rockland rabbis who endorse metzitzah b’peh tell their followers to stop the practice.

“They should use the carrot-and-stick approach,” Rabbi Tendler told The Journal News (http://lohud.us/RuiNl7). “If you don’t stop, we will do what New York City did and pass a law.”

Rabbi Tendler, who holds a degree in microbiology, maintains that oral suction of the incision is not required by halacha in the performance of a circumcision. “It’s a hoax perpetuated by some of the rabbis. It’s a prefabricated lie. . . they don’t appreciate the fact that this exposes the child to danger, danger that the child is being exposed to for no reason.”

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Agudath Israel spokesman Rabbi Avi Shafran countered Rabbi Tendler’s remarks saying, “There are many rabbis who consider metzitzah b’peh to be unnecessary. But (there are) many rabbis, including in Rockland County, I assure you, who feel quite strongly otherwise. ” Rabbi Shafran added that this issue is “a fundamental First Amendment issue, not one that Rabbi Tendler’s point of view on the particular practice here can be allowed to obscure.”

Agudath Israel has said it plans to sue the City of New York over its ruling on metzitzah b’peh.


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Read Comments (164)  —  Post Yours »

3

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:08 PM sambayon Says:

Because of the stink this oicher yisrael made a few years back we have this assault on mitzvas milah

4

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:10 PM MistahKurtz Says:

Anybody who wants to claim that metzizah b'peh is yehareg v'al ya'avor should ask himself whose life is he sacrificing.

5

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:12 PM Avi Says:

It doesn't matter how many Rabbis say it's integral. It's already been Paskened in previous generations to not be so. The Gemarah doesn't say it is. The Mishnah doesn't say it is. Someone made up a Halachah and now children will be killed to support it. So much for our Torah being an object of admiration to the Goyim. Was Moshe not such a good Navi after all?

6

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:12 PM volfie Says:

There is no one in any segment of the orthodox jewish world that knows halacha and biology better than Rabbi Dr. Tendler.Tendler is not afraid to get into the middle of a politically charged issue and as usual will be vilified by those who
reject him because of his YU affiliation.

8

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Tendler......... We knew his opinion already!!!

9

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:

I'm sure he's making his father-in-law Z'TZ"L proud :(

10

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:21 PM Anonymous Says:

If only one doctor would claim that it is a sekana (danger)
and hundred doctors would claim that it is not a sekana, the halacha would
require you to follow the one doctor. In the mbp case you have thousands of
doctors claiming that it is a sofek nefoshes. What difference does it make
that we have been doing it for thousands of years?

11

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:24 PM LionofZion Says:

Of course there is no excuse Meziza Bpeh. It is a Sakana to the baby and needs to be outlawed. When it comes to medical issues, the first stop is with the doctors, and the preponderance of doctors are clear. Putting a mouth to a wound on another person is not a good idea. End of discussion.

12

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Kol hakovod to Rav Tendler, shlita, for once again providing an informed and educated perspective to this issue. While some may disagree, you cannot question his credentials compared with most of the rabbonim who lack his understanding of the underlying medical concerns.

13

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:40 PM sambayon Says:

Reply to #4  
MistahKurtz Says:

Anybody who wants to claim that metzizah b'peh is yehareg v'al ya'avor should ask himself whose life is he sacrificing.

If you think that the left is only after metzitzah bepeh you're fooling yourself they have such a pathalogical hatred to anything that has to do with religion their endgame is to outlaw mitzvas milah period and shchitah

14

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:41 PM towiseguy Says:

What horrible, Motzi Shem Rah! My family got to know Rav Moshe very very well from when he came to visit Monsey (Cloverdale Lane) and he was thrilled and honored to have Rabbi Tendler as a son in law and made that clear in private conversations and public speeches. You, my friend, need many more Rosh Hashanas and aseres ymei tshuvas before you can even reach the ankles of Rabbi Tendlers stature and integrity. Whether you agree or not, keep your venom and horrific lies to yourself. He is not on the fringe here at all but is standing up for what he thinks will save the lives of babies especially as there are other ways to do Metzitza.

The low lives that troll these comment boards have such arrogance and ignorance

15

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:44 PM shredready Says:

finally a voice of sanity and a brave man who will stick up for the children against enormous pressure a real tzattuik

16

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:45 PM FrumJew Says:

For the record, I don't think metzitzah b'peh should be done. But the more important issue is, once the government starts down this path, they won't stop. Attacks on religious freedom tend to start with valid concerns and end with theocracy - or atheocracy.

17

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:46 PM yudel Says:

Interesting that Rav Tendlers sons disagree with him on this point.

18

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:47 PM wsbrgh Says:

"B'peh" NOT in shas, Yoreh Deah, Rambam, Kol Bo, Marharsha, etc., etc. ONLY "metzitza". And Gmora in says it's only for HEALTH.

19

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Wait, before you people villify him for his viewpoint, don't you think he has more knowledge than most of you? He is a microbiologist, for crying out loud! So he should know what he is talking about unlike a lot of ignorant commentators here.

20

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:54 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Rabbi Tendler is so right that he makes the pro-mbp fanatics nervous, as in comments #1,2 and 3.

21

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:56 PM maxedout Says:

to numbers 1,2, and 3: I think that you three need to learn a little more before you knock a talmid chochom. It's aseres yemei tshuva - obviously you ignoramuses have no idea what tshuva means.

22

 Sep 19, 2012 at 02:58 PM RN Says:

I can not believe how people here speak about a reputable Rav who has a Doctorate in microbiology, which for you less than knowledgeable folks, .means he not only knows plenty in halacha but has a complete understanding in disease transmission.

Just because there are extremist charedim who have their heads in the sand and are in complete denial over a minhag and let their "frummie egos" get in the way does not negate the positive reputation of Rav Tendler. How anyone can put MBP before the concept of sakanas nifashos over a child is ridiculous.

Number one and 2 should certainly be ashamed of themselves.

23

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:00 PM yosher Says:

Reb Moshe Zt'l regarded Rabbi Tendler with profound respect and love. As for Reb Moshe's opinion about the necessity of Metziza Bepeh, please see Igros Moshe volume bet (2), page 451, left column, 2nd paragraph. This is merely a Hungarian expression of kanuus that has encouraged countless less frum Jews to have their children's brisis in the hospital, generally toch shmoneh, leaving the baby with a questionable status. Furthermore informed consent is mandated before every surgical procedure done in America, why should a reasonably suspect procedure be exempt?

24

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:01 PM Concerned Uncle Says:

My nephew contracted herpes from this procedure and will have it for life. The same Rabbi who passed it to the other babies gave it to mine. If the health department is not going to stop it, then at least test the Mohel and have him give the results to the parents before the bris. Had we known the Mohel was sick, we would have chosen another one who did not test positive for the virus.

25

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:01 PM normaljew Says:

the Rabbi is right second you saying the rabbi will burn in hell right aftter Rosh Hasnah you must go and ask him machela

26

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:02 PM against the pope Says:

Nebach nebach nebach a kid is niftar from Herpes and the goyishe yiddin go crazy over it ESPECIALLY when the facts come out and we find out it WASN'T from the MP but rather from a sibling or something else.

27

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:06 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח"כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

28

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:06 PM Money Guy Says:

Please explain to me why the few Monsey Rabbonim protecting Turner and other child molesters deserve the Rabbi next to their names? But Tendler who believes he is actually saving jewish childrens lives on something that's not a halacha doesn't?

29

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:07 PM ConcernedMember Says:

Do you feel the same way about other Poskim of previous generations who felt the same way Rabbi Tendler does?

30

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Can someone please explain why is it a problem for all Mohalim to do mandatory (blood test or what ever) testing a few times a year.

For those who argue that mohalim never use to take the test well, nobody can say that all mohalim today are the same as they where in the olden times.

ונשמרתם את נפשותיכם is a דאוריתא.

31

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:10 PM MONSEY-ER Says:

Kol hakovod to Rav Tendler, shlita, for once again providing an informed and educated perspective to this issue, as usual your opinions are not the opinions of the Torah and the teaching of Chazal.

Thanks for showing us your true colors. It's the time of the year that we try to do Teshuva you too Tendler can take this opportunity and get closer to Hashem, I'm sure he will forgive you for your educated opinions that are not governed by the Torah.

.

32

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Wait, before you people villify him for his viewpoint, don't you think he has more knowledge than most of you? He is a microbiologist, for crying out loud! So he should know what he is talking about unlike a lot of ignorant commentators here.

for crying out loud if he is a rabbi indeed let him not change the Torah perspective on Briss Milah

33

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:13 PM bubii Says:

The world my friends is upside down the normal are crazy and the crazies are normal in the eyes of the hassidim,as the saying goes do as he says because he is crazy the crazies terrorize the sane people into submisiion

34

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:16 PM Philip Landsberg Says:

I think it is sad, pathetic, and very telling, that those of you who would DARE claim MBP is needed or even valid, hide behind childish aliases, or "dis" a gadol hador like Rav Tendler, or saying what needs to be said. Those of you who are? seeking to "embarass" and slander a fellow yid publicly, by name? Worry about your own portions, murderers.

Rav Tendler has it right. Giving Herpes or other diseases does NOT equal preventing infection.

And yes - if even ONE Mohel MIGHT have Herpes, none should perform the ritual by mouth.

It's just common sense.

35

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
normaljew Says:

the Rabbi is right second you saying the rabbi will burn in hell right aftter Rosh Hasnah you must go and ask him machela

I don't think you are correct

36

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
MAYERFREUND Says:

See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח"כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

no answer necessary; see Chasam Sofer's tshuva where he makes clear that your lumdus is steeped in ignorance.

37

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:20 PM MonseyMan Says:

Reply to #27  
MAYERFREUND Says:

See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח"כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

your missing the point, no other method existed and that is why it was done by mouth. all the anger against R' Tendler sound like the Arab spring, closed minded noise

38

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:27 PM Phineas Says:

If any of you want to disagree with a Rav who knows volumes more than you do, at least do so respectfully.

39

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
MAYERFREUND Says:

See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח"כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

It still doesn't say B'PEH

40

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Rov Tendler is a giant, you are a nothing!

41

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone please explain why is it a problem for all Mohalim to do mandatory (blood test or what ever) testing a few times a year.

For those who argue that mohalim never use to take the test well, nobody can say that all mohalim today are the same as they where in the olden times.

ונשמרתם את נפשותיכם is a דאוריתא.

fyi there are a group mohlim in the metro area who are working on a self governing body that would give kabla to mohlim as in shichita and will insist that mohelim have themselves checked periodically for herpes and other infections
btw any common sense mohel who isnt feeling well flu fever etc should have someone else do the mezitza

42

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
sambayon Says:

Because of the stink this oicher yisrael made a few years back we have this assault on mitzvas milah

If you really believe that "mitzvas milah" requires M'Bpeh to be yotzer than perhaps that explains why you would refer to a gadol hador as an "ociher yisroel". Your poorly informed rhetorical hyperoble is really a shanda. I would think that perhaps during the aseres y'mai t'shuvah those who post here might temper their language about those with whom they disagree but apparently no.

43

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:37 PM Avi Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

for crying out loud if he is a rabbi indeed let him not change the Torah perspective on Briss Milah

The Torah's perspective? It's clearly 100% Assur. Well, my Torah says so, anyway. I don't know what the Charedi/Chassidishe Torah says.

44

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:38 PM LionofZion Says:

Reply to #27  
MAYERFREUND Says:

See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח"כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

And once the Rambam writes it down the discussion is over? The Rambam was brilliant, but he practiced a primitive form of medicine and was ignorant of many facts that we are aware of today. Great leaders have found alternated ways ensure blood leaves the wound.

45

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:43 PM DB_from_LI Says:

Reply to #13  
sambayon Says:

If you think that the left is only after metzitzah bepeh you're fooling yourself they have such a pathalogical hatred to anything that has to do with religion their endgame is to outlaw mitzvas milah period and shchitah

Why do you keep talking about the left? It's not a right vs. left issue. There were many previous Gedolim who held that M'tzizah does not HAVE to be b'peh it can be done thru a gauze or pipe. The Chasam Sofer even paskened that if NO M'tzizah was done just a mila (I'm not sure what the circumstances were) it's still a kosher bris. I know VERY ehrliche Mohelim who use pipettes.

46

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Concerned Uncle Says:

My nephew contracted herpes from this procedure and will have it for life. The same Rabbi who passed it to the other babies gave it to mine. If the health department is not going to stop it, then at least test the Mohel and have him give the results to the parents before the bris. Had we known the Mohel was sick, we would have chosen another one who did not test positive for the virus.

Thank you your courage in speaking out. There are likely many cases that have never been reported because the victims' families were too embarrassed to discuss publicly or fear of retaliation just like in the cases of child abuse by rabbonim. Before this broigas is over, we will probably have documented proof of many more cases .

47

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:54 PM GEULA Says:

#19 if he;s a microbiologist and knows better than our sages then he's best off paskening on university campuses and not for the chareidi world. This is an exact example how profession and secular studies can take the neshama out of your torah and yehadus. We are affected by a plague called college education (which I too am guilty of but atleast I'm aware of the weakness and work to counterbalance it). There is no neshama in professional studies and this man is affected by his mircrobiologist knowledge. God knows a lot more than the microbiologist; unless of course if those of you disagreeing (which would make sense) are irreligious or just wear your kippas cus you were told to do so not becaue of the sense of "ol malchus shamayim"

48

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
MAYERFREUND Says:

See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח"כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

A straw! Maybe not the manufactured plastic one we have today but even a vial (the Rambam was a Dr.) with the bottom cut out will give suction to anything.

49

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:55 PM dear uncle remember... Says:

Reply to #24  
Concerned Uncle Says:

My nephew contracted herpes from this procedure and will have it for life. The same Rabbi who passed it to the other babies gave it to mine. If the health department is not going to stop it, then at least test the Mohel and have him give the results to the parents before the bris. Had we known the Mohel was sick, we would have chosen another one who did not test positive for the virus.

everything that happens is from Hashem

50

 Sep 19, 2012 at 03:58 PM kugggel lover Says:

Reply to #38  
Phineas Says:

If any of you want to disagree with a Rav who knows volumes more than you do, at least do so respectfully.

it's o.k. to know more volumes, but to act in a manor that disgraces the torah is not meant to be coming from a rabbi or rav

51

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:02 PM geula Says:

RN:
please don't name us extremist chareidim for sticking up for an age old halacha. Most of you commenting here remind me of what was written on the eirav rav. Please remember to difrentiate between a doctorate in microbiology and our torah. The only way college education had become mutar for us yidden was that we remain with the neshama of the torah in our lives. For all these professional studies although important; have nothing with the torah and have a great power to remove the torah. If you look into any of R' Hirsch's sefarim; it is full of philosofy and abnormally deep where you can clearly see the neshama and strong belief for our mesorah and halacha. A man like that was able to preach torah im derech eretz. Rav Tendler is a mechutzaf and a perfect example of the epidemic sweeping across our generation of pple running for college education but forgetting that the biggest microbiologist and psychologist and what not, is HKBH. and his word. In shamayim ; they will roll at the fact that anybody could've respected him more cus he has his degree. And a true talmid chacham would never have the am haaretzishkeit to pasken like that. Oy lanu, if we would follow in this apikorsus.

52

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:04 PM UseYourHead Says:

Anyone who can defame Rabbi Tendler on Tzom Gedaliah shouldn't waste their time fasting.

53

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:11 PM REALIST Says:

Reply to #17  
yudel Says:

Interesting that Rav Tendlers sons disagree with him on this point.

I can only imagine why...

54

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:35 PM TrueGuy Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

If only one doctor would claim that it is a sekana (danger)
and hundred doctors would claim that it is not a sekana, the halacha would
require you to follow the one doctor. In the mbp case you have thousands of
doctors claiming that it is a sofek nefoshes. What difference does it make
that we have been doing it for thousands of years?

I'm sorry but you are talking NON sence the Rambam was also such a big dr. Like todays date... And we did Metzitzeh B'peh for TOUSANDS of years and NOTHING Happened.... This all dr. Are Anti-Semites !!!

55

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:42 PM rebchuna Says:

all i know of this "rav" tendler, is that when my mother lay dying in hospital, the goishe nurses brought us tendlers books proving that the machines can be turned off r"l!!
when a matter of a beard came up in a us court, he gave evidence under oath that reb moshe zt"l shaved!!

56

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:45 PM nail on the head Says:

Reply to #43  
Avi Says:

The Torah's perspective? It's clearly 100% Assur. Well, my Torah says so, anyway. I don't know what the Charedi/Chassidishe Torah says.

I am referring to the Torah that given to the Jewish nation on mount Sinai, what torah are you referring to?

57

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
towiseguy Says:

What horrible, Motzi Shem Rah! My family got to know Rav Moshe very very well from when he came to visit Monsey (Cloverdale Lane) and he was thrilled and honored to have Rabbi Tendler as a son in law and made that clear in private conversations and public speeches. You, my friend, need many more Rosh Hashanas and aseres ymei tshuvas before you can even reach the ankles of Rabbi Tendlers stature and integrity. Whether you agree or not, keep your venom and horrific lies to yourself. He is not on the fringe here at all but is standing up for what he thinks will save the lives of babies especially as there are other ways to do Metzitza.

The low lives that troll these comment boards have such arrogance and ignorance

1. Check out the family history before Cloverdale. By the time the shiduch was presented to R' Moshe it was already a done deal.
2. Your verbiage of rosh hashanas and aseres ymei tshuvas could use some tweaking, 'Dikdukly' speaking.
3. I am not haughty enough to vilify this man on my own for several reasons; the least of which is that he is infinitely more knowledgable than I, on many different levels. But history has shown time and time again that he has no regard for other rabonim or their opinions. When ALMOST ALL poskim agree on the Har Habayis issue, he publicly spits in their collective faces. So you tell me...who is on the fringe??
4. And finally, if he feels so strongly about this issue, (and he certainly has every right to) there are ways to let your opinion be known without going to Rockland officials and most certainly not to the anti-Semitic rag that eats up Jewish news, spins it to their liking, and uses it to then paint us in a terrible light.
What should he have done you may ask? I'm not sure. Maybe discuss it privately with Rabbonim or askonim. But if there was no other method to advance his opinion, better to keep quiet!
CONTINUED...

58

 Sep 19, 2012 at 04:52 PM Don't change the Torah way Says:

Reply to #24  
Concerned Uncle Says:

My nephew contracted herpes from this procedure and will have it for life. The same Rabbi who passed it to the other babies gave it to mine. If the health department is not going to stop it, then at least test the Mohel and have him give the results to the parents before the bris. Had we known the Mohel was sick, we would have chosen another one who did not test positive for the virus.

Thank you for speaking out and clarifying that it happened in your family which is like one in a million and it allmost does not happen to anyone. May that child have a Refuah Shlemah , but in most cases it does not happen, the Torah way is the correct way. Go Torah Go.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V

59

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:03 PM MAYERFREUND Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

no answer necessary; see Chasam Sofer's tshuva where he makes clear that your lumdus is steeped in ignorance.

Please give exactly the location where it is like i did, otherwise it it has no value

60

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #37  
MonseyMan Says:

your missing the point, no other method existed and that is why it was done by mouth. all the anger against R' Tendler sound like the Arab spring, closed minded noise

Since I made no comment. Could you please answer my question

61

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:07 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Wow, VIN news actually has someone who can speak for the Godol Hador. Sad that you post under a pseudonym, we'd love to know who speaks for Rav Moshe. Perhaps you can explain why Rav Moshe z'l referred to Rav Tendler countless times in Iggros so affectionately. Oh wait, those are all fake.

It is a fact that there is no one in Klal Yisroel with the combination of scientific and halachic knowledge that can compare to MDT. Zero. Not Rav Kanievsky, Rav Schteinman, may they live and be well, they don't have close to the daas in this area as MDT. No one does.

That being said, the rabbis who need their sheep to blindly follow and not ask questions will not let these piddly things called facts get in the way of a reasoned opinion. Why let facts get in the way when spewing stupidity is so much easier? That being said, a cursory review of the seforim starting with the mishna in shabbos indicate that the archaic custom is obsolete, unnecessary, and an aveirah if risking the health of the child. No one has ever been excluded from a minyan because metzizah was done with a glass tube.

62

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

A straw! Maybe not the manufactured plastic one we have today but even a vial (the Rambam was a Dr.) with the bottom cut out will give suction to anything.

Please explain how it is possible and was possible 1,000 ago to sterile a straw?

63

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:08 PM Ina Says:

There is historical evidence that Metzizah B'peh has sickened babies during the last 200 years. Metzizah B'peh is not a commandment in the Torah. Rabbi Moshe Sofer, the Chasam Sofer, suspended the practice because the babies were most certainly getting sick!

64

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:15 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

no answer necessary; see Chasam Sofer's tshuva where he makes clear that your lumdus is steeped in ignorance.

Eeven a simple thing like cotton is able to suck up blood not even talking about straw

65

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

A straw! Maybe not the manufactured plastic one we have today but even a vial (the Rambam was a Dr.) with the bottom cut out will give suction to anything.

To have good suction power you have to make a seal and a straw don't make a good seal for suction. like the rambam writes
ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה.

66

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:18 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #58  
Don't change the Torah way Says:

Thank you for speaking out and clarifying that it happened in your family which is like one in a million and it allmost does not happen to anyone. May that child have a Refuah Shlemah , but in most cases it does not happen, the Torah way is the correct way. Go Torah Go.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V

No, the point is don't perform an unnecessary act that exposes a child to risk and has no basis in halacha. His point is put the child first. Which is what the Torah says. And keep your empty prayers, the child won't have a refuah shleimah.

67

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Don't change the Torah way Says:

Thank you for speaking out and clarifying that it happened in your family which is like one in a million and it allmost does not happen to anyone. May that child have a Refuah Shlemah , but in most cases it does not happen, the Torah way is the correct way. Go Torah Go.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V

If metzitzah is so important to chareidim, why do the mohels do it and not the fathers? There is no skill involved. The father should do metzitzah and there would be no controversy to talk about.

68

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:33 PM Moshe10 Says:

What kind of languish is he using? “Lies… Hoex…” .
He must have a deep hatred to Robanim and Yiden who are frumer then him, Like the Maskilum form the 18 and 19th centry

69

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Don't change the Torah way Says:

Thank you for speaking out and clarifying that it happened in your family which is like one in a million and it allmost does not happen to anyone. May that child have a Refuah Shlemah , but in most cases it does not happen, the Torah way is the correct way. Go Torah Go.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V

"Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V”

No, I just want the mohel who has herpes to explain to the parents that he has herpes and let the parent decide to stay with that moyel or choose a different one. Why would you be foolish enough to believe I would imply no one should have children? Our kinder are getting very sick and some are dying because of a lethal virus when the kinder have no immune system. Many cases are not reported for fear of what will happen.

70

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:37 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

for crying out loud if he is a rabbi indeed let him not change the Torah perspective on Briss Milah

He is not changing the Torah perspective on Bris Milah. YOU are!

71

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:41 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #47  
GEULA Says:

#19 if he;s a microbiologist and knows better than our sages then he's best off paskening on university campuses and not for the chareidi world. This is an exact example how profession and secular studies can take the neshama out of your torah and yehadus. We are affected by a plague called college education (which I too am guilty of but atleast I'm aware of the weakness and work to counterbalance it). There is no neshama in professional studies and this man is affected by his mircrobiologist knowledge. God knows a lot more than the microbiologist; unless of course if those of you disagreeing (which would make sense) are irreligious or just wear your kippas cus you were told to do so not becaue of the sense of "ol malchus shamayim"

"God knows a lot more than the microbiologist."

Very true. And the same G-d says that protecting life is more important than all the mitzvos in His Torah.

73

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:44 PM ChareidiMan Says:

I am not a Mumcha on this subject at all, but i do know that here is a man that comes out with his opinion and puts his name on the line and he is getting heat.

90% of Rabunnim today have no guts to make a call on anything that is 1% controversy and you guys have a problem with him? Since when can he not have a different opinion as you? Why when someone doe snot agree with you, he is automatic a loser and everything else?

There has been non kosher meat sold in our butcher stores and Rabbis came out against it and they were shut up by the big boys, there have been molesters roaming the community for years and the people (including Nuchem Rosenberg) that expose them have gotten heat and you wonder why our generation is down the tubes?

Mi Sumchu L'ish? How dare you call a man with a halachic opinion such bad names? Satmar Rabbi was against Israel and its obvious right now that he was dead wrong, why don't you call him these names? Why is he not entitles to his view?

Yiddishkeit is in the dumps because no one cares for the truth but for the power I would take his view against Niddermans view anytime of the day

74

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:47 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #54  
TrueGuy Says:

I'm sorry but you are talking NON sence the Rambam was also such a big dr. Like todays date... And we did Metzitzeh B'peh for TOUSANDS of years and NOTHING Happened.... This all dr. Are Anti-Semites !!!

"... And we did Metzitzeh B'peh for TOUSANDS of years and NOTHING Happened..."

Not true. There have been many cases recorded in the last century or two of mbp causing death and injury.
Besides, the infant mortality rate used to be so high (about one in five babies died in the first year of life) that there was no reason to attribute any particular death to mbp, especially before the rules of disease transmission were known.

75

 Sep 19, 2012 at 05:49 PM yosher Says:

Reply to #55  
rebchuna Says:

all i know of this "rav" tendler, is that when my mother lay dying in hospital, the goishe nurses brought us tendlers books proving that the machines can be turned off r"l!!
when a matter of a beard came up in a us court, he gave evidence under oath that reb moshe zt"l shaved!!

...that he trimmed Reb Moshe's beard every Fri lekovod Shabbos...and that's true. The court case was a convicted child sex offender who argued that his religion doesn't allow trimming one's beard.

77

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:02 PM My2Cents_ Says:

I see we have a bunch of doctors here ... all say metzizah b'peh is dangerous

WELL LET STOP FOR A MINUTE AND GET SOME FACTS HERE

1.NYC made the flimsiest case for this . in a court of law this evidence would not stand
2. the FACT is that for the last 70 years in America ( not going back to so called primitive days - of 100s of years ago ) most Rabbonim did not hold from Tendler in regards to metzizah b'peh
3. for those holding that al pi ZOHAR it is a must , HOW DARE YOU SAY to use a STRAW
4. in the last 70 years there were tens of thousands who did have metzizah b'peh and we don't see a epidemic of herpes in our community
5. the FACT is you have a bigger chance getting a infection in the hospital then getting Herpes from metzizah b'peh

NOW THAT the FACTS are on the table ... DEAL with them ...
and dont give me that its pikuach nefesh ...since it definitely is not

78

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:10 PM From Daat Torah web site Says:

EddieSeptember 12, 2012 11:30 PM
DT, do you know how widespread this practice is when performing Bris? I was under the impression that a minority of Mohelim use it, but it could be that in fact it is much more than that?

Daas TorahSeptember 13, 2012 12:29 AM
my understanding is that in the Litvishe world is is viewed differently than the chassidic world. For example in the old days when a woman would be in the hospital 2 weeks after giving birth with her baby - the hospitals did not allow MBP. Rav Moshe and others said that it is better to have the bris on the eight without MBP then to have it after the 8th day with MBP. The Chassidic world disagrees and asserts that there is no mila without MBP and thus they pushed off mila until after the 8th day so that there would be MBP.

80

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:19 PM Sociologist Says:

Rabosi

Let's get a grip on the matter.

* Rav Tendler ... is a world class scientist (microbiologist) and talmid chacham. Those are two indisputable facts.

* When our sages of centuries ago recommended purging the wound of bris milah it was thought that by drawing blood out of a wound you would reduce side effects of the surgical procedure. There were probably side effects because this was long before "germ theory" and the mohel (who was probably the father) did not wash his hands or the knife before the bris.

* Now that "germ theory" is no longer a theory we know that you have to thoroughly was your hands and done gloves before any surgical procedure and the site of the procedure is disinfected. After the procedure a sterile bandage is applied.

* No matter who the sage was they DID NOT KNOW what caused infections. Now we do! A bris milah is about surgically removing the foreskin and allowing a flow of blood. In the past century Rabbonim devised ways of maintaining the practice of metziza with out putting a "dirty" mouth on the wound. Would any poster here want a surgeon to use orally suck on a surgical incision done to them or their children? I don't think

81

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
MAYERFREUND Says:

See rambam hichos milah perek 2 halocho 2

כיצד מוהלין חותכין את כל העור המחפה את העטרה עד שתתגלה כל העטרה. ואח"כ פורעין את הקרום הרך שלמטה מן העור בצפורן ומחזירו לכאן ולכאן עד שיראה בשר העטרה. ואח"כ מוצץ את המילה עד שיצא הדם ממקומות רחוקים כדי שלא יבא לידי סכנה. וכל מי שאינו מוצץ מעבירין אותו. ואחר
שמוצץ נותן עליה אספלנית או רטייה וכיוצא בהן:

please explain what kind of suction equipment he means existed in his time about 1,000 years ago.

well you just proved everyone's point that mb"p is not needed. the rambam said it was needed because we shouldn't come to a sakanah, this was the thought of the ancients. in the modern era the rambam would 100% be against mb'p because that action will bring a sakana. Its funny how people try to prove something and don't realize they are batting for the wrong team.

82

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
GEULA Says:

#19 if he;s a microbiologist and knows better than our sages then he's best off paskening on university campuses and not for the chareidi world. This is an exact example how profession and secular studies can take the neshama out of your torah and yehadus. We are affected by a plague called college education (which I too am guilty of but atleast I'm aware of the weakness and work to counterbalance it). There is no neshama in professional studies and this man is affected by his mircrobiologist knowledge. God knows a lot more than the microbiologist; unless of course if those of you disagreeing (which would make sense) are irreligious or just wear your kippas cus you were told to do so not becaue of the sense of "ol malchus shamayim"

Just like hashem made the torah he made nature. You cannot separate the two, not believing in this science is kfirut, because you are denying that hashem dictated that in nature contaminating a wound will risk transmission of infection. Like i have said many times why are people so hooked on herpes you can also transmit other STDs through oral suction.

83

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
geula Says:

RN:
please don't name us extremist chareidim for sticking up for an age old halacha. Most of you commenting here remind me of what was written on the eirav rav. Please remember to difrentiate between a doctorate in microbiology and our torah. The only way college education had become mutar for us yidden was that we remain with the neshama of the torah in our lives. For all these professional studies although important; have nothing with the torah and have a great power to remove the torah. If you look into any of R' Hirsch's sefarim; it is full of philosofy and abnormally deep where you can clearly see the neshama and strong belief for our mesorah and halacha. A man like that was able to preach torah im derech eretz. Rav Tendler is a mechutzaf and a perfect example of the epidemic sweeping across our generation of pple running for college education but forgetting that the biggest microbiologist and psychologist and what not, is HKBH. and his word. In shamayim ; they will roll at the fact that anybody could've respected him more cus he has his degree. And a true talmid chacham would never have the am haaretzishkeit to pasken like that. Oy lanu, if we would follow in this apikorsus.

its funny, you're such a lemming, the torah says nothing about mb"p. the fact the chachamim talk about metzitzah doesn't mean they have not gotten that knowledge from the goyim. i can't believe a community which looks upon these acts in adults with such disgust would allow an adult to perform this on a child, no matter what the reason behind it is,its plain disgusting.

84

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:35 PM ABlogger Says:

It's quite interesting how some commentators turn this debate on it's head criticizing others for not respecting Rabbi Tendler and his opinion. It is actually this vermin Tendler who's forcing his opinion on everyone, without yielding any respect to other Rabbunim and their opinions. His geyus and disregard to other Rabbunim led him to become a Musser R"L by inciting the goyim against fellow Jews and seeking the goyim's punishment for other Jews who perform the mitzveh of milah the way the were thought by their predecessors and Rabbunim

85

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

1. Check out the family history before Cloverdale. By the time the shiduch was presented to R' Moshe it was already a done deal.
2. Your verbiage of rosh hashanas and aseres ymei tshuvas could use some tweaking, 'Dikdukly' speaking.
3. I am not haughty enough to vilify this man on my own for several reasons; the least of which is that he is infinitely more knowledgable than I, on many different levels. But history has shown time and time again that he has no regard for other rabonim or their opinions. When ALMOST ALL poskim agree on the Har Habayis issue, he publicly spits in their collective faces. So you tell me...who is on the fringe??
4. And finally, if he feels so strongly about this issue, (and he certainly has every right to) there are ways to let your opinion be known without going to Rockland officials and most certainly not to the anti-Semitic rag that eats up Jewish news, spins it to their liking, and uses it to then paint us in a terrible light.
What should he have done you may ask? I'm not sure. Maybe discuss it privately with Rabbonim or askonim. But if there was no other method to advance his opinion, better to keep quiet!
CONTINUED...

there are many others that argue for har habyit pilgrimage.

86

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Don't change the Torah way Says:

Thank you for speaking out and clarifying that it happened in your family which is like one in a million and it allmost does not happen to anyone. May that child have a Refuah Shlemah , but in most cases it does not happen, the Torah way is the correct way. Go Torah Go.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V

his point is that one child contracting this disease is enough to stop mb"p. the other examples you cite make no sense chzkiya was punished for not having children but moshe was punished for not making a brit (no mention about mb"p in the torah).

87

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:43 PM RN Says:

Reply to #47  
GEULA Says:

#19 if he;s a microbiologist and knows better than our sages then he's best off paskening on university campuses and not for the chareidi world. This is an exact example how profession and secular studies can take the neshama out of your torah and yehadus. We are affected by a plague called college education (which I too am guilty of but atleast I'm aware of the weakness and work to counterbalance it). There is no neshama in professional studies and this man is affected by his mircrobiologist knowledge. God knows a lot more than the microbiologist; unless of course if those of you disagreeing (which would make sense) are irreligious or just wear your kippas cus you were told to do so not becaue of the sense of "ol malchus shamayim"

smarty pants - when the body dies (from things like infantile herpes) the neshama goes with it. The only people taking the neshama out of anything are people who would like to risk life for no reason. G-d knows a lot more? Yes, G-d gave us brains to fill with vast knowledge and use it with common sense, I can see that your brain has atrophied as you are no longer using it.
Also - i am a woman so I do not wear a kippa.

88

 Sep 19, 2012 at 06:48 PM RN Says:

Reply to #51  
geula Says:

RN:
please don't name us extremist chareidim for sticking up for an age old halacha. Most of you commenting here remind me of what was written on the eirav rav. Please remember to difrentiate between a doctorate in microbiology and our torah. The only way college education had become mutar for us yidden was that we remain with the neshama of the torah in our lives. For all these professional studies although important; have nothing with the torah and have a great power to remove the torah. If you look into any of R' Hirsch's sefarim; it is full of philosofy and abnormally deep where you can clearly see the neshama and strong belief for our mesorah and halacha. A man like that was able to preach torah im derech eretz. Rav Tendler is a mechutzaf and a perfect example of the epidemic sweeping across our generation of pple running for college education but forgetting that the biggest microbiologist and psychologist and what not, is HKBH. and his word. In shamayim ; they will roll at the fact that anybody could've respected him more cus he has his degree. And a true talmid chacham would never have the am haaretzishkeit to pasken like that. Oy lanu, if we would follow in this apikorsus.

Hahhaha - you totally just contradicted yourself by bringing up R' Hirsch "where you can see the neshama" who was from a family that believed in secular studies when you claim secular studies is past nisht. By the way, R Hirsh is my husbands great grandfather 4 times, I know the lineage and his philosophy more than you will ever know.
R' Tendler met his wife, daughter of RMF in a library ... a secular library, apparently RMF either had a big rebel for a daughter or she understood that G-d gave a brain to be utilized. Stop wasting your time geula.

89

 Sep 19, 2012 at 07:11 PM DB_from_LI Says:

Reply to #58  
Don't change the Torah way Says:

Thank you for speaking out and clarifying that it happened in your family which is like one in a million and it allmost does not happen to anyone. May that child have a Refuah Shlemah , but in most cases it does not happen, the Torah way is the correct way. Go Torah Go.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V

Why won't you understand that M'tzitzah b'peh is NOT min H'torah. It's not a D'oraiysa, not a D'rabonon. It's a minhag that was accepted years ago. While it's not a simple issue to just shirk a minhag, when there is a possibility of potentially harming a baby, the minhag can & should be lifted.

90

 Sep 19, 2012 at 07:27 PM Brooklyn mom Says:

Oy, Reb Moishe זצ״ל is not shepping yiddishe nachas. Not the first time he has been in the midst of controversy or became controversial by his own doing. We follow gedolim greater than he.

91

 Sep 19, 2012 at 07:50 PM UseYourHead Says:

It's important to note that the metzitzah b'peh controversy involves two related, but entirely separate, issues.

1) Whether or not metzitzah b'peh is required at all. It is clear that many highly reliable poskim - both from previous generations and contemporary ones as well - maintain that it most certainly is not. However, there are those who maintain that it is required, or at least desirable.

2) Whether or not it is "okay" to have government regulation of the milah procedure to any extent.

It must be pointed at that there are many who hold metzitzah b'peh is NOT required, yet are strongly opposed to having any government involvement in the matter. And this is not a contradiction at all.

92

 Sep 19, 2012 at 07:51 PM Yerachmiel Says:

R. Tendler is a worthy son-in-law of R. Moshe. Like R. Moshe he pays attention to halachah and to the facts on the ground. Most importantly he has the stubborn courage of his convictions unlike the spineless rabbonim in the Yeshivish world and the RCA who assur MBP because of health risk but defer to chasidim in fighting the health department for saying exactly what they believe.

If you believe MBP is dangerous you have to be opposed to it. You can't just say, to each their own. MBP is not necessary for milah, even according its practitioners. If you want proof inquire about what they do when an adult has milah for geirus. Not even chasidish mohelim do MBP in that case. Yet milah for geirus is even more important than milah for others.

93

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:09 PM Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

It must not be regulated.
It needs to be prohibited outright.

This disgusting medieval practice kills and cripples Jewish babies. It creates an enormous chillul Hashem. It convinces Gentiles that Jews don't care about their children's lives

94

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:20 PM Yudel Says:

No one can argue with Rav Tendler's own statement that he is a great talmud chacham. Therefore when the sanhedrin will shortly be instituted by Mashiach, the sanhedrin will will be able to do justice to Rav Tendler and rule that he is deed a "zukain-mamreh". Amen

95

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:21 PM ayinglefunadorf Says:

Reply to #62  
Anonymous Says:

Please explain how it is possible and was possible 1,000 ago to sterile a straw?

"please explain how was possible 1000 years ago to sterile a straw" The same way its done today. Dip it in boilling water. If you are asking how to boil water? in fire. Remember Ejs is Av Meloche

97

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Antwerp

98

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:37 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #67  
Anonymous Says:

If metzitzah is so important to chareidim, why do the mohels do it and not the fathers? There is no skill involved. The father should do metzitzah and there would be no controversy to talk about.

Dad can have herpes

99

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

Wow, VIN news actually has someone who can speak for the Godol Hador. Sad that you post under a pseudonym, we'd love to know who speaks for Rav Moshe. Perhaps you can explain why Rav Moshe z'l referred to Rav Tendler countless times in Iggros so affectionately. Oh wait, those are all fake.

It is a fact that there is no one in Klal Yisroel with the combination of scientific and halachic knowledge that can compare to MDT. Zero. Not Rav Kanievsky, Rav Schteinman, may they live and be well, they don't have close to the daas in this area as MDT. No one does.

That being said, the rabbis who need their sheep to blindly follow and not ask questions will not let these piddly things called facts get in the way of a reasoned opinion. Why let facts get in the way when spewing stupidity is so much easier? That being said, a cursory review of the seforim starting with the mishna in shabbos indicate that the archaic custom is obsolete, unnecessary, and an aveirah if risking the health of the child. No one has ever been excluded from a minyan because metzizah was done with a glass tube.

How dare you belittle R' Shteinman or R' Chaim Kanievsky . We are all blessed to have those gedoilei hador. Where would you run for a bracha to R' Shteinman and R' Chaim or to .....?

100

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:50 PM curious Says:

Reply to #93  
Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

It must not be regulated.
It needs to be prohibited outright.

This disgusting medieval practice kills and cripples Jewish babies. It creates an enormous chillul Hashem. It convinces Gentiles that Jews don't care about their children's lives

following your posts all over, you probably consider most taryag mitzvos medival practices. Milah itselve you should consider medival and barbarous..what !cutting a 8 day baby??!!When the time will come your likes will 'ullu hayah shom lo hayou nigal'...........(remeber the rasha of the hagaddah)

101

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #84  
ABlogger Says:

It's quite interesting how some commentators turn this debate on it's head criticizing others for not respecting Rabbi Tendler and his opinion. It is actually this vermin Tendler who's forcing his opinion on everyone, without yielding any respect to other Rabbunim and their opinions. His geyus and disregard to other Rabbunim led him to become a Musser R"L by inciting the goyim against fellow Jews and seeking the goyim's punishment for other Jews who perform the mitzveh of milah the way the were thought by their predecessors and Rabbunim

I fear that for calling Rav Tendler, shlita, a "vermin" you will suffer greatly in the year ahead and no amount of begging mechilah will suffice. I can't say I would really feel sorry for your suffering given how you deliberately and knowingly defame a gadol and tzadik in such a disgusting manner.

102

 Sep 19, 2012 at 08:54 PM OYVY2 Says:

Rav Tendler is a very educated and respected man. Metzitah B'peh is not a halacha rather a minhag, so let's not get so excited. The New York law does not say it can not be done, it states that permission is required from parents, what is wrong with that ?
Agudah should again not go around flaming fires and suing the city of NY there are so many issues to be addressed. Do what you and your minhag and your rov think and give kavod.

103

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #93  
Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

It must not be regulated.
It needs to be prohibited outright.

This disgusting medieval practice kills and cripples Jewish babies. It creates an enormous chillul Hashem. It convinces Gentiles that Jews don't care about their children's lives

There were 84 cases of Neonatal Herpes in New York since 2006. Some of them were girls, and some were boys. Out of those 84 cases only 5 of those babies has mbp.

These are the facts.

Please explain how you came to the assumption that it kills and cripples jewish babies.

104

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:18 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #77  
My2Cents_ Says:

I see we have a bunch of doctors here ... all say metzizah b'peh is dangerous

WELL LET STOP FOR A MINUTE AND GET SOME FACTS HERE

1.NYC made the flimsiest case for this . in a court of law this evidence would not stand
2. the FACT is that for the last 70 years in America ( not going back to so called primitive days - of 100s of years ago ) most Rabbonim did not hold from Tendler in regards to metzizah b'peh
3. for those holding that al pi ZOHAR it is a must , HOW DARE YOU SAY to use a STRAW
4. in the last 70 years there were tens of thousands who did have metzizah b'peh and we don't see a epidemic of herpes in our community
5. the FACT is you have a bigger chance getting a infection in the hospital then getting Herpes from metzizah b'peh

NOW THAT the FACTS are on the table ... DEAL with them ...
and dont give me that its pikuach nefesh ...since it definitely is not

very strange garbled post. You obviously cannot differentiate between fact and fiction.

1. NYC made a very strong case that babies who had mbp are THREE times more likely to die than babies who did not get mbp. Their findings are accepted by the overwhelming majority of doctors and medical experts.
2. How can you assume as "fact" that most of the rabbonim in America over the last 70 years would disagree with Rabbi Tendler? That "fact" exists only in your head.
3. FACT: Even those who follow the Zohar agree that pikuach nefesh overrides every mitzvah in the Torah.
4. See number 1.
5. How can you compare staying in a hospital to mbp? If someone needs to go to a hospital but doesn't, he will probably get much sicker than he is already. The medical benefits of a hospital stay clearly outweigh any risk of infection. Mbp is the exact opposite. The risk of infection clearly outweighs any medical benefits.

Then you conclude by saying "... and dont give me that its pikuach nefesh ...since it definitely is not ”. Once again, you have problem with the facts. Most medical experts say that mbp is pikuach nefesh -- however, you know that it's "definitely" not pikuach nefesh.

105

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:19 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #99  
Anonymous Says:

How dare you belittle R' Shteinman or R' Chaim Kanievsky . We are all blessed to have those gedoilei hador. Where would you run for a bracha to R' Shteinman and R' Chaim or to .....?

Sorry you were absent the day they taught reading in school. I didn't belittle them at all. No one is more expert in the field of microbiology and halacha than Rav Moshe Dovid Tendler. No godol alive has an expertise that even equals him. And that is a fact.

106

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:23 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #59  
MAYERFREUND Says:

Please give exactly the location where it is like i did, otherwise it it has no value

The Chasam Sofer's teshuva was printed in the journal Kochvei Yitzchak in 1845. If you google "Rabbi Moshe Sofer responsum on metzitzah" you will find it.

107

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:23 PM rivka Says:

Reply to #58  
Don't change the Torah way Says:

Thank you for speaking out and clarifying that it happened in your family which is like one in a million and it allmost does not happen to anyone. May that child have a Refuah Shlemah , but in most cases it does not happen, the Torah way is the correct way. Go Torah Go.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that one should not have children, after all we see some sick children in the hospital and in doctors offices. ???

or don't allow your child to cross the street because he or she might be hit by a car C"V

I do not understand why you are all arguing. Nothing is being outlawed. Just like we have to sign before any surgery, dental or medical procedure - that we understand that there are risks involved but we choose to continue anyway - the city is likewise having the parents sign the consent form saying that they understand that there are risks but choose to have the MBP anyway. This is why we have traffic lights and seat belts and other safety regulations; and why we have vaccinations and flu shots and must buy auto liability insurance, etc. We know there are dangers involved everywhere, but we go on living and doing but acknowledge that we accept responsibility, knowing there are risks. The government health departments are not forbidding anything, but just do not want to bear responsibility for what they see as people's uneducated choices. Once they feel that the couple is educated in MBP, they are allowed to make their own choices - and accept responsibility for any unexpected consequences..

108

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:38 PM chiefchacham Says:

Reply to #13  
sambayon Says:

If you think that the left is only after metzitzah bepeh you're fooling yourself they have such a pathalogical hatred to anything that has to do with religion their endgame is to outlaw mitzvas milah period and shchitah

You are absolutely right. Understand that we are fighting for our lives and for our future generations freedom. We are at the beginning of the application of West European standards and values to our society. This is very different than the American values that we are familiar with.

109

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:38 PM ABlogger Says:

Reply to #101  
Anonymous Says:

I fear that for calling Rav Tendler, shlita, a "vermin" you will suffer greatly in the year ahead and no amount of begging mechilah will suffice. I can't say I would really feel sorry for your suffering given how you deliberately and knowingly defame a gadol and tzadik in such a disgusting manner.

"gadol" I've heard him being called, but "tzadik" are you kidding me!? He's made a name for himself as anything BUT a tzadik. He has a din Musser, the halachah of whom is unequivocal. About yourself, the Gemareh says that an unjustified curse always returns upon the one who uttered it.

111

 Sep 19, 2012 at 09:58 PM Chaim Says:

As has already been noted Tendler (out of respect for his shver z"l I have omitted the title he truly deserves) testified that "with the rarest exception, all people who consider themselves to be meticulously observant in Jewish law" believe that trimming the beard is not only allowed but indeed is required before certain holidays and events. Anyone that knows anything about halacha and customs knows that this is a complete lie (unless the existence of chasidim is on the "rarest exception" - which is not the case in spite of how much he wishes it to be). He further went on to testify that since Jewish law requires obedience to the civil law of the state, including prison regulations, Jewish law would also require a Jewish prisoner to shave. I suppose he would also have approved of the Nazis forcibly cutting off beards since after all it was dinah d'malchusa so it was an aveirah for anyone under Nazi rule to actually wear a beard. B"H Judge Stewart turned out to be a bigger talmud chacham (and certainly a bigger mentch) and ruled that US law not only didn't require that the prisoner shave but actually mandated that the prison accommodate his desire to have a beard.

112

 Sep 19, 2012 at 10:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #73  
ChareidiMan Says:

I am not a Mumcha on this subject at all, but i do know that here is a man that comes out with his opinion and puts his name on the line and he is getting heat.

90% of Rabunnim today have no guts to make a call on anything that is 1% controversy and you guys have a problem with him? Since when can he not have a different opinion as you? Why when someone doe snot agree with you, he is automatic a loser and everything else?

There has been non kosher meat sold in our butcher stores and Rabbis came out against it and they were shut up by the big boys, there have been molesters roaming the community for years and the people (including Nuchem Rosenberg) that expose them have gotten heat and you wonder why our generation is down the tubes?

Mi Sumchu L'ish? How dare you call a man with a halachic opinion such bad names? Satmar Rabbi was against Israel and its obvious right now that he was dead wrong, why don't you call him these names? Why is he not entitles to his view?

Yiddishkeit is in the dumps because no one cares for the truth but for the power I would take his view against Niddermans view anytime of the day

Without weighing in on this subject, I suggest that people investigate Rabbi Tendler's "involvement", years ago, with the great Monsey Mikvah. (He is definitely NOT the greatest expert on Mikvaos, as he is on biology.)

He then gained the animosity of the greatest Gedolei-Torah in Monsey/Spring-valley/New-Square.
And there are "rumors" regarding his "feelings" towards Chareidim in general.
In other words, his reputation proceeds him...

113

 Sep 19, 2012 at 10:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #99  
Anonymous Says:

How dare you belittle R' Shteinman or R' Chaim Kanievsky . We are all blessed to have those gedoilei hador. Where would you run for a bracha to R' Shteinman and R' Chaim or to .....?

Why are you so sensitive and nit-picking about every word. The poster did not belittle either of these Rabbanim. He stated that they do not possess the scientific knowledge that Rabbi Dr. Tendler has. I am sure they themselves would agree.

114

 Sep 19, 2012 at 10:40 PM c Says:

Reply to #104  
Pro-Lifer Says:

very strange garbled post. You obviously cannot differentiate between fact and fiction.

1. NYC made a very strong case that babies who had mbp are THREE times more likely to die than babies who did not get mbp. Their findings are accepted by the overwhelming majority of doctors and medical experts.
2. How can you assume as "fact" that most of the rabbonim in America over the last 70 years would disagree with Rabbi Tendler? That "fact" exists only in your head.
3. FACT: Even those who follow the Zohar agree that pikuach nefesh overrides every mitzvah in the Torah.
4. See number 1.
5. How can you compare staying in a hospital to mbp? If someone needs to go to a hospital but doesn't, he will probably get much sicker than he is already. The medical benefits of a hospital stay clearly outweigh any risk of infection. Mbp is the exact opposite. The risk of infection clearly outweighs any medical benefits.

Then you conclude by saying "... and dont give me that its pikuach nefesh ...since it definitely is not ”. Once again, you have problem with the facts. Most medical experts say that mbp is pikuach nefesh -- however, you know that it's "definitely" not pikuach nefesh.

I commend your patience in responding to that comment. It will most likely fall upon the deaf ears of the person it was directed at. Hopefully, it will be heard and understood by others of his type that haven't yet become complete zombies.

115

 Sep 19, 2012 at 10:49 PM jonneyw Says:

Whats the chiddush? all the talmidim of the modern orthodox Rov must continue to “modernize” yidishkeit by mocking mesorah, if they dont they will just be Chareidiy…eventually they will be mattir some issurey deoiraysa to stay relevent and modern.. nu nu who cares.

116

 Sep 19, 2012 at 10:18 PM Wise-Guy Says:

Reply to #73  
ChareidiMan Says:

I am not a Mumcha on this subject at all, but i do know that here is a man that comes out with his opinion and puts his name on the line and he is getting heat.

90% of Rabunnim today have no guts to make a call on anything that is 1% controversy and you guys have a problem with him? Since when can he not have a different opinion as you? Why when someone doe snot agree with you, he is automatic a loser and everything else?

There has been non kosher meat sold in our butcher stores and Rabbis came out against it and they were shut up by the big boys, there have been molesters roaming the community for years and the people (including Nuchem Rosenberg) that expose them have gotten heat and you wonder why our generation is down the tubes?

Mi Sumchu L'ish? How dare you call a man with a halachic opinion such bad names? Satmar Rabbi was against Israel and its obvious right now that he was dead wrong, why don't you call him these names? Why is he not entitles to his view?

Yiddishkeit is in the dumps because no one cares for the truth but for the power I would take his view against Niddermans view anytime of the day

" Satmar Rabbi was against Israel and its obvious right now that he was dead wrong,.."

Your foolish comment about the Satmar Rebbe Z'L negates everything else you wrote.
Sorry.

117

 Sep 19, 2012 at 11:12 PM Yerachmiel Says:

Reply to #111  
Chaim Says:

As has already been noted Tendler (out of respect for his shver z"l I have omitted the title he truly deserves) testified that "with the rarest exception, all people who consider themselves to be meticulously observant in Jewish law" believe that trimming the beard is not only allowed but indeed is required before certain holidays and events. Anyone that knows anything about halacha and customs knows that this is a complete lie (unless the existence of chasidim is on the "rarest exception" - which is not the case in spite of how much he wishes it to be). He further went on to testify that since Jewish law requires obedience to the civil law of the state, including prison regulations, Jewish law would also require a Jewish prisoner to shave. I suppose he would also have approved of the Nazis forcibly cutting off beards since after all it was dinah d'malchusa so it was an aveirah for anyone under Nazi rule to actually wear a beard. B"H Judge Stewart turned out to be a bigger talmud chacham (and certainly a bigger mentch) and ruled that US law not only didn't require that the prisoner shave but actually mandated that the prison accommodate his desire to have a beard.

I am not sure of context but he may have been referring to chasam sofer tshuvah on shaving where CS refers to Italian Mekubalim who bedavkah shaved (using the smelly powders some of us remember). These mekubalim held that while a mekubal in EY could or should grow beards, a mekubal chutz l'aretz should not. CS was clear that there was no issur on shaving (as long as it was not with a razor that destroys) and therefore if one did shave there was an inyan of kavod shabbos to have to do it erev shabbos, etc.

118

 Sep 20, 2012 at 12:02 AM Moose Says:

Reply to #24  
Concerned Uncle Says:

My nephew contracted herpes from this procedure and will have it for life. The same Rabbi who passed it to the other babies gave it to mine. If the health department is not going to stop it, then at least test the Mohel and have him give the results to the parents before the bris. Had we known the Mohel was sick, we would have chosen another one who did not test positive for the virus.

I dont believe you.

119

 Sep 20, 2012 at 12:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #103  
Anonymous Says:

There were 84 cases of Neonatal Herpes in New York since 2006. Some of them were girls, and some were boys. Out of those 84 cases only 5 of those babies has mbp.

These are the facts.

Please explain how you came to the assumption that it kills and cripples jewish babies.

Good one

120

 Sep 20, 2012 at 12:24 AM awaiting a boy Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Kol hakovod to Rav Tendler, shlita, for once again providing an informed and educated perspective to this issue. While some may disagree, you cannot question his credentials compared with most of the rabbonim who lack his understanding of the underlying medical concerns.

And he aih will have it the halacha way. Not the city way. Worked bh for the rest of my sons. Freedom of practice.

121

 Sep 20, 2012 at 12:38 AM to Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #66  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

No, the point is don't perform an unnecessary act that exposes a child to risk and has no basis in halacha. His point is put the child first. Which is what the Torah says. And keep your empty prayers, the child won't have a refuah shleimah.

right!!! put the child first and don't allow him to ever cross the street. thanks for confirming my point.

122

 Sep 20, 2012 at 12:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
DB_from_LI Says:

Why won't you understand that M'tzitzah b'peh is NOT min H'torah. It's not a D'oraiysa, not a D'rabonon. It's a minhag that was accepted years ago. While it's not a simple issue to just shirk a minhag, when there is a possibility of potentially harming a baby, the minhag can & should be lifted.

Minhag Yisroel Din

123

 Sep 20, 2012 at 01:54 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #77  
My2Cents_ Says:

I see we have a bunch of doctors here ... all say metzizah b'peh is dangerous

WELL LET STOP FOR A MINUTE AND GET SOME FACTS HERE

1.NYC made the flimsiest case for this . in a court of law this evidence would not stand
2. the FACT is that for the last 70 years in America ( not going back to so called primitive days - of 100s of years ago ) most Rabbonim did not hold from Tendler in regards to metzizah b'peh
3. for those holding that al pi ZOHAR it is a must , HOW DARE YOU SAY to use a STRAW
4. in the last 70 years there were tens of thousands who did have metzizah b'peh and we don't see a epidemic of herpes in our community
5. the FACT is you have a bigger chance getting a infection in the hospital then getting Herpes from metzizah b'peh

NOW THAT the FACTS are on the table ... DEAL with them ...
and dont give me that its pikuach nefesh ...since it definitely is not

I think you greatly overrate yourself. Even 1cent would have been an exxageration. You should do tshuvah before Yom Kipur.

124

 Sep 20, 2012 at 04:18 AM GEULA Says:

To prolifer and all those advocating for Mr. Tendler. You are all a bunch of Am Haaratzim. This is not a case of pikuach nefesh where it's doche deoreisah. It is not "more important" to god what you little minded blabber mouths on a shallow news blogging site called VIN have stated that it needs to overtake halacha. God has given us a torah and with it a moshe and the rest of the leaders. Moshe had no college education. Moshe was pure and competent and from this we learn that we have competent rabbanim and leaders a bit more respected than Mr Tendler that have based their decision on age old basis for metzitza b'pe. This whole story is a modern orthodox ploy where their whole life is based and played like a multiple choice test. Selectively. I will keep what is comfortable for me and how it works best for me. You are clearly affected by the ruach hatuma /media that is all out in our generation. Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you'll know why Metzitza B'pe is the way to do it.

125

 Sep 20, 2012 at 05:36 AM jonkamm623 Says:

Reply to #47  
GEULA Says:

#19 if he;s a microbiologist and knows better than our sages then he's best off paskening on university campuses and not for the chareidi world. This is an exact example how profession and secular studies can take the neshama out of your torah and yehadus. We are affected by a plague called college education (which I too am guilty of but atleast I'm aware of the weakness and work to counterbalance it). There is no neshama in professional studies and this man is affected by his mircrobiologist knowledge. God knows a lot more than the microbiologist; unless of course if those of you disagreeing (which would make sense) are irreligious or just wear your kippas cus you were told to do so not becaue of the sense of "ol malchus shamayim"

yeah but if your enemies fell sick you would think they were unwise for not going to a doctor(that means college educated)

126

 Sep 20, 2012 at 05:52 AM jonkamm623 Says:

Reply to #102  
OYVY2 Says:

Rav Tendler is a very educated and respected man. Metzitah B'peh is not a halacha rather a minhag, so let's not get so excited. The New York law does not say it can not be done, it states that permission is required from parents, what is wrong with that ?
Agudah should again not go around flaming fires and suing the city of NY there are so many issues to be addressed. Do what you and your minhag and your rov think and give kavod.

Please stop throwing water on the fire of ignorance.

127

 Sep 20, 2012 at 06:00 AM jonkamm623 Says:

Reply to #115  
jonneyw Says:

Whats the chiddush? all the talmidim of the modern orthodox Rov must continue to “modernize” yidishkeit by mocking mesorah, if they dont they will just be Chareidiy…eventually they will be mattir some issurey deoiraysa to stay relevent and modern.. nu nu who cares.

Well why don't you ride a horse like your great grandfather.what is this moderne mini van apikorsus.

128

 Sep 20, 2012 at 07:36 AM Lawrence Doc Says:

Reply to #13  
sambayon Says:

If you think that the left is only after metzitzah bepeh you're fooling yourself they have such a pathalogical hatred to anything that has to do with religion their endgame is to outlaw mitzvas milah period and shchitah

Why are you so paranoid to believe that that the prohibition of MBP is always the begining of the end? There is a real danger to MBP that wasn't known in previous generations, something known only today. I do not believe that there is a single trained infectious disease specialist that would concur that there is no danger to the child. As a physician, I am not trying to Paskin halacha, but untrained rabbanim have no right issuing medical edicts. HaRav Tendler is one of the few who is a Mumcha in both fields, we should take his word seriously.

129

 Sep 20, 2012 at 07:38 AM jackr Says:

Reply to #120  
awaiting a boy Says:

And he aih will have it the halacha way. Not the city way. Worked bh for the rest of my sons. Freedom of practice.

freedom of practice only if you have an informed consent and understand what you are practicing. No one in the NYC Department of Health is trying to take away your right to practice. Only to make sure that you understand what you are doing.

130

 Sep 20, 2012 at 08:50 AM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #121  
to Shaul in Monsey Says:

right!!! put the child first and don't allow him to ever cross the street. thanks for confirming my point.

The correct analogy isn't the stupidity you profer, but forcing a child to cross a highway with speeding traffic constantly for no reason. I'm not expecting to convince a chossid shoiteh like you of anything, if your rebbe told you to wear a yushka around your neck you'd do it without thinking twice. The point is that wouldn't make you right, just stupid for listening to someone without using the brain you allegedly were born with.

131

 Sep 20, 2012 at 08:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #121  
to Shaul in Monsey Says:

right!!! put the child first and don't allow him to ever cross the street. thanks for confirming my point.

The biggest joke is that when it comes to chumros that were discovered in this generation through microbiology, like microscopic water organisms and organisms in fish and strawberries, that were unheard of in the shtot, the chareidim run after the chumros like lost puppy dogs, because they can use them to point to everyone else and claim holier than thou status. But when it comes to irrefutable proof that a mohel killed ababy with MBP, they cry like sheep. Hypocrites each and every one, from the rebbes down to the last one of them.

132

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:10 AM Observer Says:

I heard that years ago, women and babies often stayed in hospitals for up to two weeks. The brissim were often performed in hospitals. Rav Moshe Feintstein was asked, should the bris in the hospital be performed on the eighth day, without metiztzah b'peh, which the hospitals did not permit? Rav Moshe paskened, yes. (Accordingly, a bris milah without MBP is kosher. MBP is not an actual component of the bris milah.)

The Chassidim, on the other hand, insisted on MBP, and delayed their brissim past the eighth day, until mothers and babies were released from the hospitals.

I read this on the Daat Torah blog. Can anyone confirm this?

And if correct, why would Rav Reuven Feinstein sign the 200-rabbi kol koreh insisting on MBP? Does he hold differently than his father? Does Rav Dovid Feinstein not signing mean that he holds by his father?

133

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:17 AM My2Cents_ Says:

Reply to #104  
Pro-Lifer Says:

very strange garbled post. You obviously cannot differentiate between fact and fiction.

1. NYC made a very strong case that babies who had mbp are THREE times more likely to die than babies who did not get mbp. Their findings are accepted by the overwhelming majority of doctors and medical experts.
2. How can you assume as "fact" that most of the rabbonim in America over the last 70 years would disagree with Rabbi Tendler? That "fact" exists only in your head.
3. FACT: Even those who follow the Zohar agree that pikuach nefesh overrides every mitzvah in the Torah.
4. See number 1.
5. How can you compare staying in a hospital to mbp? If someone needs to go to a hospital but doesn't, he will probably get much sicker than he is already. The medical benefits of a hospital stay clearly outweigh any risk of infection. Mbp is the exact opposite. The risk of infection clearly outweighs any medical benefits.

Then you conclude by saying "... and dont give me that its pikuach nefesh ...since it definitely is not ”. Once again, you have problem with the facts. Most medical experts say that mbp is pikuach nefesh -- however, you know that it's "definitely" not pikuach nefesh.

see post 103 and then answer with the FACTS ... not your made up FACTS

134

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:26 AM Avi Says:

Reply to #56  
nail on the head Says:

I am referring to the Torah that given to the Jewish nation on mount Sinai, what torah are you referring to?

Your copy is corrupted. You should have it checked. The Torah given to Moshe doesn't mention M'tzitza, never mind MbPh.

135

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:31 AM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #124  
GEULA Says:

To prolifer and all those advocating for Mr. Tendler. You are all a bunch of Am Haaratzim. This is not a case of pikuach nefesh where it's doche deoreisah. It is not "more important" to god what you little minded blabber mouths on a shallow news blogging site called VIN have stated that it needs to overtake halacha. God has given us a torah and with it a moshe and the rest of the leaders. Moshe had no college education. Moshe was pure and competent and from this we learn that we have competent rabbanim and leaders a bit more respected than Mr Tendler that have based their decision on age old basis for metzitza b'pe. This whole story is a modern orthodox ploy where their whole life is based and played like a multiple choice test. Selectively. I will keep what is comfortable for me and how it works best for me. You are clearly affected by the ruach hatuma /media that is all out in our generation. Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you'll know why Metzitza B'pe is the way to do it.

"... Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you'll know why Metzitza B'pe is the way to do it ..."

Sorry Mr/s Geula, but you have it backwards. Hashem said that pikuach nefesh overrides every single one of His mitzvos. And the how do we know when it is "pikuach nefesh"? By listening to the medical experts, including microbiologists.

136

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:43 AM Avi Says:

Reply to #124  
GEULA Says:

To prolifer and all those advocating for Mr. Tendler. You are all a bunch of Am Haaratzim. This is not a case of pikuach nefesh where it's doche deoreisah. It is not "more important" to god what you little minded blabber mouths on a shallow news blogging site called VIN have stated that it needs to overtake halacha. God has given us a torah and with it a moshe and the rest of the leaders. Moshe had no college education. Moshe was pure and competent and from this we learn that we have competent rabbanim and leaders a bit more respected than Mr Tendler that have based their decision on age old basis for metzitza b'pe. This whole story is a modern orthodox ploy where their whole life is based and played like a multiple choice test. Selectively. I will keep what is comfortable for me and how it works best for me. You are clearly affected by the ruach hatuma /media that is all out in our generation. Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you'll know why Metzitza B'pe is the way to do it.

You are an embarrassment. Not just to Judaism, but to humanity in general. You are completely ignorant. You are worse than ignorant because you are willfully so. You have no disregard for Kavod Hatorah. You have no understanding of Torah. The Chasam Sofer himself wrote that if MbPh leads to danger that it should not be done! Two hundred years ago they didn't have the knowledge of germ theory that we have today, but even he could understand that it's not always safe!

You are an evil person, and clearly R"H had no real affect on you. That's a real shame.

137

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:44 AM {Ploni Says:

Reply to #126  
jonkamm623 Says:

Please stop throwing water on the fire of ignorance.

That was brilliant; kol hakavod jonkamm623!

138

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:56 AM Slingsby Says:

Reply to #126  
jonkamm623 Says:

Please stop throwing water on the fire of ignorance.

How do we explain metzitzah bapeh to Gentiles?

Please, VIN editor, stop sweeping my question under the rug. It is not only Jews who read VIN; Gentiles do so as well as you already know

The goyim are beginning to equate metzitzah bapeh with the Pesach blood libel.

Unless we come up with a rational explanation of this practice it will not just be New York Jews who will be facing the music.

Every Jew in all parts of the world may be asked why we do MBP and we need as rational an explanation for the custom as is possible.

We definitely need to discuss this important matter of public relations and not to stick our heads deep in the sands of ignorance and prejudice.

So please, VIN: kindly publish my question. Let us debate it and come up with an answer. I, for one, am already having to field inquiries from my Gentile co-workers.

139

 Sep 20, 2012 at 10:15 AM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #133  
My2Cents_ Says:

see post 103 and then answer with the FACTS ... not your made up FACTS

I never make up facts. Only my opponents do.

140

 Sep 20, 2012 at 11:16 AM curious Says:

Reply to #115  
jonneyw Says:

Whats the chiddush? all the talmidim of the modern orthodox Rov must continue to “modernize” yidishkeit by mocking mesorah, if they dont they will just be Chareidiy…eventually they will be mattir some issurey deoiraysa to stay relevent and modern.. nu nu who cares.

they were already matir issurey deoiresa mixed swimm ' dancing etc.

141

 Sep 20, 2012 at 11:19 AM SandraM Says:

The question for me, is not yes Metzizah or no Metzizah.

Every parent should make an educated choice about what type of bris they want to have for their child. The information, both medical and Halachic, should be made available, so that we can make a responsible decision. Rabbi Tendler, with his vast knowledge in science and in Halacha serves an important role.

What I find very disturbing and shocking, is the unfortunate language that Rabbi Tendler chose to use: “It’s a hoax perpetuated by some of the rabbis. It’s a prefabricated lie.`` This type of language is inflammatory, undignified and easily subject to gross misinterpretation. It has no place in dialogue or teaching. It is the language that anti-Semites have used and use. It is beyond shocking that someone in Jewish leadership, let alone a rabbi, would stoop to this level. Even as we are passionate about our views, remember the saying of our sages: `Wise men, be exceedingly careful with your words...

On another note, the meddling of the state into private religious practice is very worrying. We are on the proverbial slippery slope, on a dangerous trajectory limiting more and more of our private lives.

142

 Sep 20, 2012 at 11:35 AM curious Says:

Reply to #116  
Wise-Guy Says:

" Satmar Rabbi was against Israel and its obvious right now that he was dead wrong,.."

Your foolish comment about the Satmar Rebbe Z'L negates everything else you wrote.
Sorry.

also let him see gemorah brachos 19A top..he will get his just desserts

143

 Sep 20, 2012 at 11:49 AM sane Says:

Reply to #124  
GEULA Says:

To prolifer and all those advocating for Mr. Tendler. You are all a bunch of Am Haaratzim. This is not a case of pikuach nefesh where it's doche deoreisah. It is not "more important" to god what you little minded blabber mouths on a shallow news blogging site called VIN have stated that it needs to overtake halacha. God has given us a torah and with it a moshe and the rest of the leaders. Moshe had no college education. Moshe was pure and competent and from this we learn that we have competent rabbanim and leaders a bit more respected than Mr Tendler that have based their decision on age old basis for metzitza b'pe. This whole story is a modern orthodox ploy where their whole life is based and played like a multiple choice test. Selectively. I will keep what is comfortable for me and how it works best for me. You are clearly affected by the ruach hatuma /media that is all out in our generation. Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you'll know why Metzitza B'pe is the way to do it.

How do you explain that R. Moshe ZTL routinely consulted R. Tendler concerning medical issues, in order to Paskin appropriately?

144

 Sep 20, 2012 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #105  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

Sorry you were absent the day they taught reading in school. I didn't belittle them at all. No one is more expert in the field of microbiology and halacha than Rav Moshe Dovid Tendler. No godol alive has an expertise that even equals him. And that is a fact.

Again, you were actually comparing him to those gedoilim. Those gedoilim like R' Shteinman and R' Chaim have a GENUINE daas tora .His microbiology expertise is TOTALLY irrelevant for daas tora .

145

 Sep 20, 2012 at 12:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #124  
GEULA Says:

To prolifer and all those advocating for Mr. Tendler. You are all a bunch of Am Haaratzim. This is not a case of pikuach nefesh where it's doche deoreisah. It is not "more important" to god what you little minded blabber mouths on a shallow news blogging site called VIN have stated that it needs to overtake halacha. God has given us a torah and with it a moshe and the rest of the leaders. Moshe had no college education. Moshe was pure and competent and from this we learn that we have competent rabbanim and leaders a bit more respected than Mr Tendler that have based their decision on age old basis for metzitza b'pe. This whole story is a modern orthodox ploy where their whole life is based and played like a multiple choice test. Selectively. I will keep what is comfortable for me and how it works best for me. You are clearly affected by the ruach hatuma /media that is all out in our generation. Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you'll know why Metzitza B'pe is the way to do it.

I don't understand your reasoning. When it comes to health, even if its not directly pikuach nefesh, chareidim that I know, run to the top MEDICAL specialists to heal themselves and maintain that health. But when it comes to MB"P, all of a sudden these medical specialists and biologists don't know what they are talking about and they have an agenda. Why is it that only this Dr. Berman is the one saying that there is no evidence that MB"P can cause herpes? Every other medical doctor and microbiologist says otherwise? How can you, as a chelek elokei mima'al, be so willfully ignorant to these facts? Can't you get it thru your head that milah is SURGERY and the mouth is full of organisms and that rov doctors say there is a chasash that Bepeh, even if its a masehu, may be harmful to a baby's immature immune system? I just don't understand how these people live with themselves...

146

 Sep 20, 2012 at 12:58 PM rivka Says:

Reply to #120  
awaiting a boy Says:

And he aih will have it the halacha way. Not the city way. Worked bh for the rest of my sons. Freedom of practice.

- the "city" way is, in fact, freedom of practice!!! You can do the bris any way you want - you just have to make an educated decision and take responsibility for it.

147

 Sep 20, 2012 at 01:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #124  
GEULA Says:

To prolifer and all those advocating for Mr. Tendler. You are all a bunch of Am Haaratzim. This is not a case of pikuach nefesh where it's doche deoreisah. It is not "more important" to god what you little minded blabber mouths on a shallow news blogging site called VIN have stated that it needs to overtake halacha. God has given us a torah and with it a moshe and the rest of the leaders. Moshe had no college education. Moshe was pure and competent and from this we learn that we have competent rabbanim and leaders a bit more respected than Mr Tendler that have based their decision on age old basis for metzitza b'pe. This whole story is a modern orthodox ploy where their whole life is based and played like a multiple choice test. Selectively. I will keep what is comfortable for me and how it works best for me. You are clearly affected by the ruach hatuma /media that is all out in our generation. Our torah is not dictated by microbiology. Microbiology is dictated by our torah; and if you understand this; you'll know why Metzitza B'pe is the way to do it.

Do I assume you do not use doctors or modern medicine or MRI's etc. since they are results of science and not dictated by Torah??

148

 Sep 20, 2012 at 01:09 PM favish Says:

Reply to #139  
Pro-Lifer Says:

I never make up facts. Only my opponents do.

just talk it into yourself

149

 Sep 20, 2012 at 01:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #138  
Slingsby Says:

How do we explain metzitzah bapeh to Gentiles?

Please, VIN editor, stop sweeping my question under the rug. It is not only Jews who read VIN; Gentiles do so as well as you already know

The goyim are beginning to equate metzitzah bapeh with the Pesach blood libel.

Unless we come up with a rational explanation of this practice it will not just be New York Jews who will be facing the music.

Every Jew in all parts of the world may be asked why we do MBP and we need as rational an explanation for the custom as is possible.

We definitely need to discuss this important matter of public relations and not to stick our heads deep in the sands of ignorance and prejudice.

So please, VIN: kindly publish my question. Let us debate it and come up with an answer. I, for one, am already having to field inquiries from my Gentile co-workers.

It appears very likely that MBP was a custom derived from extremely flawed ancient Greek science. The document cited below is available on the Internet as "Vol 3 Sprecher.pdf"

Mezị zạ h be-Peh―Therapeutic Touch
or Hippocratic Vestige? 1
By: SHLOMO SPRECHER

"the Greeks struggled to explain the mechanism of what we call infection—or in
their terms, corruption. They could have no idea that the cause was
something [micro-organisms] deposited on the surface of the wound.
Therefore, using their principle that “stagnating blood decays,” they
rationalized that the trouble had to arise all around the wound: blood
was attracted there, and turned into pus. This thought is stated or hinted at
may times in the Collection [Hippocratic Corpus]; for instance, “all
wounds draw their inflammation and swelling from the
surrounding parts, because of the blood flowing into them. In
every recent wound…it is expedient to cause blood to flow from
it abundantly, for thus will the wound and the adjacent parts be
less attacked with inflammation…when the blood flows they
become drier and less in size, as being thus dried up. Indeed
what prevents the healing…is the decay of the blood.”

150

 Sep 20, 2012 at 02:25 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #148  
favish Says:

just talk it into yourself

good one. You made me smile.

151

 Sep 20, 2012 at 02:30 PM Wise-Guy Says:

Reply to #138  
Slingsby Says:

How do we explain metzitzah bapeh to Gentiles?

Please, VIN editor, stop sweeping my question under the rug. It is not only Jews who read VIN; Gentiles do so as well as you already know

The goyim are beginning to equate metzitzah bapeh with the Pesach blood libel.

Unless we come up with a rational explanation of this practice it will not just be New York Jews who will be facing the music.

Every Jew in all parts of the world may be asked why we do MBP and we need as rational an explanation for the custom as is possible.

We definitely need to discuss this important matter of public relations and not to stick our heads deep in the sands of ignorance and prejudice.

So please, VIN: kindly publish my question. Let us debate it and come up with an answer. I, for one, am already having to field inquiries from my Gentile co-workers.

I've read your desperate plea.

If a Gentile asked me these questions, I would answer thus:

It's always recommended to immediately suck a wound to withdraw any possible contaminants. (i.e. germs.)
The same method is practiced in First-aid, especially after a snake-bite.
Although today we use sterile equipment, we still add this extra precautionary step (of suction) to further bolster the infants safety by immediately withdrawing the local (possibly contaminated) blood out of circulation.

It is important to note that, seeing as a Jew is prohibited from swallowing ANY blood, the Mohel (or anybody else) is required to spit out the blood immediately!

Now, in light of the risks allegedly involved when performing the suction with direct oral contact, one can wonder "Why doesn't everybody simply use a sterile tube?"

The reply is threefold:
1) Oral suction is more airtight for better germ-withdrawal (the Mohel performs only one suck for around 2 seconds) and it causes less discomfort for the infant than when using a tube.

2) There are Kabbalistic reasons, passed to us from ancient saintly mystics (e.g. The Ari Z'L) that require the use of a human mouth.
Continued:

152

 Sep 20, 2012 at 02:32 PM Wise-Guy Says:

Continued:

Although these days most of us don't grasp the lofty concepts of the Kabbalistic sages, we trust their judgment. (They were "authenticated" in their days...) So if they wrote something is important, it's important!

3) Many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that MBP, prepensely and purposely by mouth, is indeed very important.
Of course, they would discontinue this practice if there was a significant risk, but they consider that the facts on the ground prove that the risk is minuscule. (4 tragic accidents in 11 years, out of well over 100,000 circumcisions.)
Naturally, we must now take the added intensified precaution of monitoring the Mohel's health-status. But if we would discontinue anything, based on such low-risk statistics, we would never let any of our children ride bikes, or worse, skateboards! (Even with a helmet.)
Ask any pediatrician (that's been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP's ratio.

Continued:

153

 Sep 20, 2012 at 02:34 PM Wise-Guy Says:

Continued:

Ask any pediatrician (that's been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP's ratio.
Therefore, this commotion about MBP seems to be disingenuous. Before focusing on a religious practice (albeit it might appear to be archaic to most people) why not require parent's to sign a form before allowing their children to use roller-blades?! And shouldn't Pogo-sticks be completely outlawed?
No more bikes, trikes, Football, Base-ball. Ice-skates, Swimming, Trampolines, etc. etc. The list is endless.
We allow our children to play Soccer, and we allow them to gain the metaphysical benefit of MBP.

Not to mention how insulting it is to imply that the Orthodox Jews care less about their children's safety than the rest of the populace.
Nothing is further from the truth.

154

 Sep 20, 2012 at 02:36 PM Theoretically Says:

Reply to #143  
sane Says:

How do you explain that R. Moshe ZTL routinely consulted R. Tendler concerning medical issues, in order to Paskin appropriately?

It's quite possible that while Reb Moshe Z'L was alive, Rabbi Tendler "behaved" himself....

155

 Sep 20, 2012 at 03:04 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #151  
Wise-Guy Says:

I've read your desperate plea.

If a Gentile asked me these questions, I would answer thus:

It's always recommended to immediately suck a wound to withdraw any possible contaminants. (i.e. germs.)
The same method is practiced in First-aid, especially after a snake-bite.
Although today we use sterile equipment, we still add this extra precautionary step (of suction) to further bolster the infants safety by immediately withdrawing the local (possibly contaminated) blood out of circulation.

It is important to note that, seeing as a Jew is prohibited from swallowing ANY blood, the Mohel (or anybody else) is required to spit out the blood immediately!

Now, in light of the risks allegedly involved when performing the suction with direct oral contact, one can wonder "Why doesn't everybody simply use a sterile tube?"

The reply is threefold:
1) Oral suction is more airtight for better germ-withdrawal (the Mohel performs only one suck for around 2 seconds) and it causes less discomfort for the infant than when using a tube.

2) There are Kabbalistic reasons, passed to us from ancient saintly mystics (e.g. The Ari Z'L) that require the use of a human mouth.
Continued:

"... If a Gentile asked me these questions, I would answer thus:It's always recommended to immediately suck a wound to withdraw any possible contaminants. (i.e. germs.) The same method is practiced in First-aid ..."

I get it. To remove germs from a wound, we must apply the most germ-laden part of our bodies to it. If the gentile doesn't laugh in your face, he's being polite.

156

 Sep 20, 2012 at 04:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #151  
Wise-Guy Says:

I've read your desperate plea.

If a Gentile asked me these questions, I would answer thus:

It's always recommended to immediately suck a wound to withdraw any possible contaminants. (i.e. germs.)
The same method is practiced in First-aid, especially after a snake-bite.
Although today we use sterile equipment, we still add this extra precautionary step (of suction) to further bolster the infants safety by immediately withdrawing the local (possibly contaminated) blood out of circulation.

It is important to note that, seeing as a Jew is prohibited from swallowing ANY blood, the Mohel (or anybody else) is required to spit out the blood immediately!

Now, in light of the risks allegedly involved when performing the suction with direct oral contact, one can wonder "Why doesn't everybody simply use a sterile tube?"

The reply is threefold:
1) Oral suction is more airtight for better germ-withdrawal (the Mohel performs only one suck for around 2 seconds) and it causes less discomfort for the infant than when using a tube.

2) There are Kabbalistic reasons, passed to us from ancient saintly mystics (e.g. The Ari Z'L) that require the use of a human mouth.
Continued:

Very cleverly written. However, every medical statement that you made is a total fabrication and does not conform to accepted medical practice here in the US or elswhere. No reputable first aid recommends sucking venom from a snake bite anymore. It has been proven to have almost no effect whatsoever and currently not a modality of treatment at all. Besides, comparing a snake bite to a baby's immature immune system is ludicrous if not outright lying. You are nothing more than a hired shill for those advocating MB"P and your medical knowledge is next to nil wrapped in fanciful written english to fool those who have genuine concerns in this matter. Take your fancy drivel elsewhere, please!

157

 Sep 20, 2012 at 04:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Wise-Guy Says:

Continued:

Although these days most of us don't grasp the lofty concepts of the Kabbalistic sages, we trust their judgment. (They were "authenticated" in their days...) So if they wrote something is important, it's important!

3) Many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that MBP, prepensely and purposely by mouth, is indeed very important.
Of course, they would discontinue this practice if there was a significant risk, but they consider that the facts on the ground prove that the risk is minuscule. (4 tragic accidents in 11 years, out of well over 100,000 circumcisions.)
Naturally, we must now take the added intensified precaution of monitoring the Mohel's health-status. But if we would discontinue anything, based on such low-risk statistics, we would never let any of our children ride bikes, or worse, skateboards! (Even with a helmet.)
Ask any pediatrician (that's been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP's ratio.

Continued:

You gave yourself away when you used the word "significant risk" in point 3 with the implication that there may be some risk, no matter how small. And I would not use "accidents" to describe these risks. It's obvious you are a "hired gun" for the MB"P lobby since you so eloquently use the english langauge to perpetuate your outright falshoods and omissions to further an agenda not in line with accepted medical practice and knowledge. Tell me, how much did you get paid to spout your fancy drivel here?

158

 Sep 20, 2012 at 05:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #153  
Wise-Guy Says:

Continued:

Ask any pediatrician (that's been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP's ratio.
Therefore, this commotion about MBP seems to be disingenuous. Before focusing on a religious practice (albeit it might appear to be archaic to most people) why not require parent's to sign a form before allowing their children to use roller-blades?! And shouldn't Pogo-sticks be completely outlawed?
No more bikes, trikes, Football, Base-ball. Ice-skates, Swimming, Trampolines, etc. etc. The list is endless.
We allow our children to play Soccer, and we allow them to gain the metaphysical benefit of MBP.

Not to mention how insulting it is to imply that the Orthodox Jews care less about their children's safety than the rest of the populace.
Nothing is further from the truth.

You are comparing accidents with a willful sakana, no matter how small, of possible oral to wound transmission of herpes. The way you phrase, "...ask any pediatrician..." is to imply that these doctors consider MB"P very low risk and this is simply not true. There is only one physician, by omitting certain facts would lead one to believe that MB"P is very low risk. Almost all other doctors consider this to be an unnecessary risk. But even Dr. Berman can't deny that there is some risk, no matter how small. To me, that's a risk I'm not willing to take. And your last statement is the real kicker, that orthodox Jews do not care for their child's health. It's not this that is further from the truth, but more like your whole comment with its 3 parts and I must admit, a very well written piece of fiction as such. I guess that English major really paid off...!

159

 Sep 20, 2012 at 05:49 PM {Ploni Says:

Reply to #151  
Wise-Guy Says:

I've read your desperate plea.

If a Gentile asked me these questions, I would answer thus:

It's always recommended to immediately suck a wound to withdraw any possible contaminants. (i.e. germs.)
The same method is practiced in First-aid, especially after a snake-bite.
Although today we use sterile equipment, we still add this extra precautionary step (of suction) to further bolster the infants safety by immediately withdrawing the local (possibly contaminated) blood out of circulation.

It is important to note that, seeing as a Jew is prohibited from swallowing ANY blood, the Mohel (or anybody else) is required to spit out the blood immediately!

Now, in light of the risks allegedly involved when performing the suction with direct oral contact, one can wonder "Why doesn't everybody simply use a sterile tube?"

The reply is threefold:
1) Oral suction is more airtight for better germ-withdrawal (the Mohel performs only one suck for around 2 seconds) and it causes less discomfort for the infant than when using a tube.

2) There are Kabbalistic reasons, passed to us from ancient saintly mystics (e.g. The Ari Z'L) that require the use of a human mouth.
Continued:

If Slingsby #138 follows your advice and tells his colleagues that "There are Kabbalistic reasons, passed to us from ancient saintly mystics (e.g. The Ari Z'L) that require the use of a human mouth." he/she will meet with a row of open-mouthed men and women, totally unable to believe they heard Slingsby actually utter such superstition.

That scenario you describe conjures up all the very worst thoughts about working charedi men with children. There is no need for me to elaborate further.

160

 Sep 20, 2012 at 05:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #158  
Anonymous Says:

You are comparing accidents with a willful sakana, no matter how small, of possible oral to wound transmission of herpes. The way you phrase, "...ask any pediatrician..." is to imply that these doctors consider MB"P very low risk and this is simply not true. There is only one physician, by omitting certain facts would lead one to believe that MB"P is very low risk. Almost all other doctors consider this to be an unnecessary risk. But even Dr. Berman can't deny that there is some risk, no matter how small. To me, that's a risk I'm not willing to take. And your last statement is the real kicker, that orthodox Jews do not care for their child's health. It's not this that is further from the truth, but more like your whole comment with its 3 parts and I must admit, a very well written piece of fiction as such. I guess that English major really paid off...!

Actually I read Dr Berman's report he's very smart and uses trickery so he wont be academically shunned. His reports states that there is a risk of transmission, however, there's some article that claims that herpes may statistically not prove it is mb"p. If you read everything clearly in his report he's being shrewd and saying there's a risk, however, we can't solely attribute it to mb"p, which is what I agree with based on the data presented. To all the pro-metziztah has Dr Berman clearly say there's absolutely nothing wrong with it? Obviously, there we shouldn't be doing oral suction as many others have eloquently stated.

161

 Sep 20, 2012 at 06:02 PM Slingsby Says:

Reply to #153  
Wise-Guy Says:

Continued:

Ask any pediatrician (that's been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP's ratio.
Therefore, this commotion about MBP seems to be disingenuous. Before focusing on a religious practice (albeit it might appear to be archaic to most people) why not require parent's to sign a form before allowing their children to use roller-blades?! And shouldn't Pogo-sticks be completely outlawed?
No more bikes, trikes, Football, Base-ball. Ice-skates, Swimming, Trampolines, etc. etc. The list is endless.
We allow our children to play Soccer, and we allow them to gain the metaphysical benefit of MBP.

Not to mention how insulting it is to imply that the Orthodox Jews care less about their children's safety than the rest of the populace.
Nothing is further from the truth.

Thank you, Wise-Guy, for your elaborate response. You clearly took great pains to express your personal and private opinions on MBP.

Before I face my colleagues it would be helpful for me (and no doubt for others) to read the thoughts of other contributors. So, gentlemen (and ladies) get typing, please!

162

 Sep 20, 2012 at 06:08 PM Herman ze German Says:

Reply to #153  
Wise-Guy Says:

Continued:

Ask any pediatrician (that's been actively practicing pediatrics for a few years) about the statistics of serious injury or death involved with kids playing contact-sports or riding bicycles. The risk of serious injury or death is considerably higher than MBP's ratio.
Therefore, this commotion about MBP seems to be disingenuous. Before focusing on a religious practice (albeit it might appear to be archaic to most people) why not require parent's to sign a form before allowing their children to use roller-blades?! And shouldn't Pogo-sticks be completely outlawed?
No more bikes, trikes, Football, Base-ball. Ice-skates, Swimming, Trampolines, etc. etc. The list is endless.
We allow our children to play Soccer, and we allow them to gain the metaphysical benefit of MBP.

Not to mention how insulting it is to imply that the Orthodox Jews care less about their children's safety than the rest of the populace.
Nothing is further from the truth.

It might have escaped your notice, Wise-Guy, in your valiant efforts to introduce humor into your contribution (that can be the only reason for you doing so) that "Pogo-sticks,
... bikes, trikes, Football, Base-ball. Ice-skates, Swimming, Trampolines, roller-blades, etc. etc". do not cause oral transmission of the HSV-1 virus, nor have they ever done so.

On the other hand, metzitzah bapeh does.

163

 Sep 20, 2012 at 07:54 PM Observer Says:

Mr. "Wise-Guy":

The mohel can be a carrier of HSV-1, but be asymptomatic, and thus able to transmit the virus to the 8-day old baby, who has an immature immune system. The baby, in turn, can be the recipient of HSV-1, and also be asymptomatic, and not receive any treatment. The baby can have delayed cognitive development, and brain damage, and nobody will ever know that it was caused by MBP. People will only speculate that it is congenital, environmental, some other cause.

Bike riding, and the other examples you give are different. They are open and obvious risks, which even a child, 7 and above, can assess, and compensate for, such as obeying the helmet laws, riding on pedestrian sidewalks instead of roadways, and other common sense protections. MBP, involving a non-consenting baby, who deserves the highest medical and legal protection possible, is different. It is unethical to impose an avoidable risk, with grave health consequences, like MBP, on a non-consenting baby.

That is why the Infectious Diseases Society of America, 10,000 doctors and scientists, wrote a letter to Mayor Bloomberg supporting the regulation.

164

 Sep 20, 2012 at 08:17 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Reply to #161  
Slingsby Says:

Thank you, Wise-Guy, for your elaborate response. You clearly took great pains to express your personal and private opinions on MBP.

Before I face my colleagues it would be helpful for me (and no doubt for others) to read the thoughts of other contributors. So, gentlemen (and ladies) get typing, please!

Dear Slingsby, this is the best I could do:

The rabbis of the Talmud (almost 2,000 years ago) believed that the baby would die unless blood in and around the wound was stirred up.This belief was founded on the best science of that time which held that "stagnating blood decays" (as explained above, comment #149). It was generally done with the mouth because oral suction was assumed to be the most powerful and effective method. In those days, it was not known that disease could be spread by the saliva of one's mouth. Over the centuries, the practice became enshrined as part of the circumcision ritual. However, in the 100 - 200 years, as the science of disease transmission improved, many (possibly most) orthodox Jews stopped doing mbp altogether, or they used a pipette and gauze. They are a few hold outs, however, who maintain that such an ancient tradition must not be tampered with unless there is compelling evidence against it, and they believe that no such evidence has yet been produced.

165

 Sep 20, 2012 at 09:31 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

It's very easy to come on here and bash Rabbi Tendler but those that do are simply admitting that they know nothing about the issue so they attack the messenger. Rabbi Tendler's knowledge of the issue is far superior in every way to these backwater rabbiners that comment on here like they know anything. The fact is MBP is an ancient meaningless ritual that puts babys at risk needlessly. There is ZERO benefit to this pagan based custom on any physical or spirtitual level, and the proof is that there are thousands upon thousands upon tens of thousands of yiddin who did not have MBP and are full fledged yiddin in every way. And there are babys that did have it done who are dead. Yaharog vaal yaavor for a minhag shtuss? While geneiva outright is praised and excused? What ignorance.

166

 Sep 20, 2012 at 10:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #164  
Pro-Lifer Says:

Dear Slingsby, this is the best I could do:

The rabbis of the Talmud (almost 2,000 years ago) believed that the baby would die unless blood in and around the wound was stirred up.This belief was founded on the best science of that time which held that "stagnating blood decays" (as explained above, comment #149). It was generally done with the mouth because oral suction was assumed to be the most powerful and effective method. In those days, it was not known that disease could be spread by the saliva of one's mouth. Over the centuries, the practice became enshrined as part of the circumcision ritual. However, in the 100 - 200 years, as the science of disease transmission improved, many (possibly most) orthodox Jews stopped doing mbp altogether, or they used a pipette and gauze. They are a few hold outs, however, who maintain that such an ancient tradition must not be tampered with unless there is compelling evidence against it, and they believe that no such evidence has yet been produced.

It has not been produced simply because the suspected parties involved have refused to cooperate with the subsequent investigations. But ultimately, why take such unnecessary risk in the first place??

167

 Sep 20, 2012 at 10:28 PM SandraM Says:

Reply to #165  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

It's very easy to come on here and bash Rabbi Tendler but those that do are simply admitting that they know nothing about the issue so they attack the messenger. Rabbi Tendler's knowledge of the issue is far superior in every way to these backwater rabbiners that comment on here like they know anything. The fact is MBP is an ancient meaningless ritual that puts babys at risk needlessly. There is ZERO benefit to this pagan based custom on any physical or spirtitual level, and the proof is that there are thousands upon thousands upon tens of thousands of yiddin who did not have MBP and are full fledged yiddin in every way. And there are babys that did have it done who are dead. Yaharog vaal yaavor for a minhag shtuss? While geneiva outright is praised and excused? What ignorance.

Those who will 'hold' by Metzizah will continue to do it, those who follow Tendler will not. The parents will make the decision, so the argument is somewhat silly.

The language we use when arguing is what matters. Using inflammatory and disgusting language such as: "It’s a hoax perpetuated by some of the rabbis. It’s a prefabricated lie." is simply unacceptable.

We must learn to disagree civilly and not through libelous charges against each other such as "Yaharog Vaal yaavor, pagan custom, backwater rabbiners." It simply is not decent.

The same argument can be said with respect, and even with love -especially during Aseret Yemei Teshuvah.

168

 Sep 21, 2012 at 02:49 AM Wise-Guy Says:

Reply to #161  
Slingsby Says:

Thank you, Wise-Guy, for your elaborate response. You clearly took great pains to express your personal and private opinions on MBP.

Before I face my colleagues it would be helpful for me (and no doubt for others) to read the thoughts of other contributors. So, gentlemen (and ladies) get typing, please!

As you may have noticed, there are many (perhaps a majority) of people that disagree with most, if not everything, I wrote.
You might want to mention this to your colleagues.
This is an internal controversy. It's all about following different practices and beliefs.

I once again emphasis that my response to your request is my own understanding of this issue. I completely understand the views and dissent of the opposition.

I can only stress that whether one chooses to practice MBP or not, we all have our children's best interest at heart.

I trust the judgment of the Rabbis (and doctors) whom, despite the arguments of other learned Rabbis (and doctors), ruled that MBP does not pose a risk significant enough to suspend it's practice.

The Rabbonim, whose advice and rulings I personally follow, have proven themselves, to my satisfaction, as being wise, caring and scrupulous. They have taken the risks into account, and therefore I consider their rulings educated and reliable.

But, as they say, "to each his own".

Call me foolish, (I've been called worse) but I'm glad that I received MBP. And I have no regrets having it performed on my own child.

G'mar Chasima Tova

169

 Sep 21, 2012 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #168  
Wise-Guy Says:

As you may have noticed, there are many (perhaps a majority) of people that disagree with most, if not everything, I wrote.
You might want to mention this to your colleagues.
This is an internal controversy. It's all about following different practices and beliefs.

I once again emphasis that my response to your request is my own understanding of this issue. I completely understand the views and dissent of the opposition.

I can only stress that whether one chooses to practice MBP or not, we all have our children's best interest at heart.

I trust the judgment of the Rabbis (and doctors) whom, despite the arguments of other learned Rabbis (and doctors), ruled that MBP does not pose a risk significant enough to suspend it's practice.

The Rabbonim, whose advice and rulings I personally follow, have proven themselves, to my satisfaction, as being wise, caring and scrupulous. They have taken the risks into account, and therefore I consider their rulings educated and reliable.

But, as they say, "to each his own".

Call me foolish, (I've been called worse) but I'm glad that I received MBP. And I have no regrets having it performed on my own child.

G'mar Chasima Tova

You may call yourself wise-guy but you certainly don't come across that way at all despite your very well written comment defending MBP. Now, I will tell you some cold hard facts from a professional medical viewpoint that possibly might change your perceptions. As a previous commentator noted, the oral to wound contact exposes the immuno-suppressed infant to a whole host of organisms some of which may be HSV-1 (Herpes). The mohel and infant may be asymptomatic long after initial contact was made and may manifests in conditions many years down the road. Now, if you still insist on doing so despite the overwhelming consesus of medical opinion, then you are taking an unnecessay risk and there is nothing further to discuss. Just proves my point that there can be otherwise normal, rational people who for some reason or another still insists on doing MPB. I hope that you and the others here will do the necessary research and come to the right conclusions in the coming years. Gmar chasimah tovah and a gut, gebencht yur.

170

 Sep 24, 2012 at 08:51 PM SSSS123 Says:

Hashem should have rachmanus on all of you who speak with such hatred against a Gadol Biyisroel- You really need to ask Him Mechila- I fear for your judgment this Yom Kippur- I hope this extra “zchus” of Motzie Shem ra on a big Rav stands you well! Think before you speak- its Aseres Yimei Teshuva-Its because of people like you that we are still in galus- such sinas chinam! for shame!!!!!!!!!!

171

 Oct 03, 2012 at 06:24 PM Matzoslocal101 Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

no answer necessary; see Chasam Sofer's tshuva where he makes clear that your lumdus is steeped in ignorance.

I did see the Chasam Sofer's "letter" to R' Elozer Horowitz. The letter is not included in any published edition of the Chasam Sofer's Responsa. Furthermore, it contains a condition. "If expert doctors will testify honestly that Metzitzah with a Sfug (sponge), does the same thing as metzitzah bipeh he will agree to R' Elozer Horowitz's proposal to metzitzah bisfug. Tendler's reference to this story in both his articles (Aug 2004 Pediatrics- English) and (February 2005 Harefuah-Hebrew) is Prof Jacob Katz's "Divine Law in Human Hands, a case study in halachic flexibility" According to Katz, the condition was never faithfully met, but the Chasam Sofer was not informed of this. As a side note, the Medresh in Vayikra Raba says a Sfug is not motzetz, and I think the tannaim that wrote the Medresh are a little better authority than Dr Tendler as are The Binyan Tzion and Maharam Schick. Among the other lies in Tendler's PEDIATRIC paper is that Ignacz Semmelweiss, who died in 1865, discovered disease transmission after a baby got tuberculosis from an infected mohel, The first case of which occured in 1873, eight years after Semmelweiss death and was not published until 1883.

172

 Oct 03, 2012 at 06:40 PM Matzoslocal101 Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

no answer necessary; see Chasam Sofer's tshuva where he makes clear that your lumdus is steeped in ignorance.

As a further note to my previous post, In the original paper on the subject by Tendler's friends Lorry Rubin and Phillip Lanzkowsky (Mar 2000 PIDJ) After contradicting all their own citations, skewing their testing methods by not doing any test that would implicate the mother or exonerate the mohel, and fabricating information, the authors, trying to show the danger that metzitzah poses to humanity, cite the most recent paper on the subject, a 1946 Journal of Urology paper that cites Finkelstein's 1932 cases as the most recent allegation of an infection due to metzitzah. Rubin and Lanzkowsky, having documented that it was 68 years since the last allegation of an infection, then write that Public helath officials have to meet with Jewish clergy and lay leaders to change Metzitzah. Show me a hospital, a doctor, or another medical procedure that goes 68 years without an infection and we'll talk about metzitzah.
Other facts:

Tendler has been trying to undermine ultra orthodox mohelim for over 40 years since his establishment of the Mt Sinai school of circumcision in 1968.

DoH asst comm Schillinger has contradicted every paper she ever wrote on HSV in her statements on MBP.

173

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