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Jerusalem - Police Arrest Women Of The Wall Leader For Singing

Published on: October 17, 2012 03:44 PM
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Lesley Sachs, director of "Women of the Wall" argues with  police due to her wearing a 'tallit' (prayer shawl) visible while morning prayers together with "WOW" at the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site, in Jerusalem on October 17, 2012. "Women of the Wall" fights for the right for Jewish women to conduct prayer services, read from a Torah scroll while wearing prayer shawls, and sing out loud at the women’s section of the Western Wall. Photo by Miriam Alster/FLASH90  Lesley Sachs, director of "Women of the Wall" argues with police due to her wearing a 'tallit' (prayer shawl) visible while morning prayers together with "WOW" at the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site, in Jerusalem on October 17, 2012. "Women of the Wall" fights for the right for Jewish women to conduct prayer services, read from a Torah scroll while wearing prayer shawls, and sing out loud at the women’s section of the Western Wall. Photo by Miriam Alster/FLASH90

Jerusalem - Chairwoman of the Women of the Wall activist group Anat Hoffman was arrested Tuesday night for disturbing the peace by singing out loud at the Western Wall.

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Hoffman, along with 250 women from the movement and from the Hadassah organization went to the site for a prayer service for the new Jewish month.

She was held overnight and released after 12 hours in police custody, and issued with a restraining order banning her from visiting the Western Wall for 30 days.

Two more women, Lesley Sachs, Director of Women of the Wall and board member Rachel Cohen-Yeshurun, were arrested Wednesday morning at another women’s prayer service.

They were detained and questioned for several hours and subsequently released.

Several similar incidents have occurred in recent months

In a press statement, the group said that it remains “committed to their struggle to gain the right of all women to pray at the Kotel, each according to her own custom, with Torah, Tallit and voices raised in song.”

Israeli law, upheld by the Supreme Court, stipulates that it is forbidden to conduct a religious ceremony “contrary to accepted practice” at a holy site, or one that may “hurt the feelings of other worshipers.”

Content provided as courtesy by The Jerusalem Post


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1

 Oct 17, 2012 at 04:25 PM nombody Says:

Vata'an Lahem Miryam "Shiru L'hashem Ki Gaoh Ga'ah" - Shemot 15:21.
Vatashar Devora u'Varak Ben Avinoam - Shofetim 5:1

2

 Oct 17, 2012 at 04:58 PM Rachel W. Says:

They don't get it. What I don't get is if they're okay with making up their own rules, why not simply erect a wall of their own some place where they can dress as they wish, sing their hearts out and do whatever else it is that tickles their fancy.

3

 Oct 17, 2012 at 05:32 PM Mike Says:

I'm a feminist type myself. Really. But I'll tell you a secret: The best thing, for all concerned, would be to just ignore these people. I know its hard. But the truth is that if they dont get the headlines this will all peter out.

4

 Oct 17, 2012 at 05:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Let them sing!

5

 Oct 17, 2012 at 07:25 PM AlbertEinstein Says:

Reply to #1  
nombody Says:

Vata'an Lahem Miryam "Shiru L'hashem Ki Gaoh Ga'ah" - Shemot 15:21.
Vatashar Devora u'Varak Ben Avinoam - Shofetim 5:1

Please read the meforshim to understand these pesukim properly.

6

 Oct 17, 2012 at 07:34 PM pickythinker Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

Let them sing!

It's The Kosel the holiest place of Judaism in the world. I'm totally ok with them singing and wearing tallisim. Just any where but there.

7

 Oct 17, 2012 at 07:56 PM yaakov doe Says:

She could have at least covered herself better with the tallis.

8

 Oct 17, 2012 at 08:08 PM Anonymous Says:

or one that may “hurt the feelings of other worshipers.”

This "Law" certainly can become a double edged sword.

9

 Oct 17, 2012 at 08:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is upset by women davening at the kosel has issues to deal with. I'd rather they be davening in whatever nusach they wish at whatever decibel level they wish rather than out shopping or running around the beach in very untzinusdik bathing suits. They are doing no harm to anyone and should be left alone.

10

 Oct 17, 2012 at 08:48 PM Insider Says:

Suggestion No.1: Let them do their thing on the other side of the Kotel.
Suggestion No. 2: How dare we call them the Women of the Wall. I presume that the noshim tzidkonius that are at the Kotel every day saying Tehilim earnestly have a much greater connection to the "Wall," as opposed to these self-promoting publicity-seeking imposters. Instead, call them the Women of the Moon for their showing up once a month. I hope legitimate lady witches do not get offended.

11

 Oct 17, 2012 at 08:56 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #2  
Rachel W. Says:

They don't get it. What I don't get is if they're okay with making up their own rules, why not simply erect a wall of their own some place where they can dress as they wish, sing their hearts out and do whatever else it is that tickles their fancy.

because you are. where does it say in the torah one cannot hear a womans voice? and anyway it was the secular who sacrificed blood to recapture the wall not the ultra orthodx. when you spill blood then you can have a say

12

 Oct 17, 2012 at 09:22 PM Anonymous Says:

The secular gave up the wall in the first place and they'd do it again for a phony peace treaty. In 1948, BenGurion of less than blessed memory did not want to take the Jewish Quarter and instead let the Arabs have it. The charedim davened there quietly and respectfully from the beginning of the yishuv hayoshon. It was "religious" tzioini gangsters who caused the friction between Arabs and Jews there.

13

 Oct 17, 2012 at 09:41 PM Baruch MordechaiVerona Says:

These women clothe their exhibitionism in religious devotion. Consider: I have the "right" to use a men's mikva but it is arguably violative of the rights of others for me to publicly disrobe before using one of the mikvas opposite the section of the kotel where these exhibitionists exhibit. The members of my organization, Men at the Mikva, "remain committed to their struggle to gain the right of all men to immerse at the Kotel, each according to his own custom, with Torah, Tzitzis and voices raised in song.”

14

 Oct 17, 2012 at 10:02 PM Anonymous Says:

They all apear ridiculous. That talis surely hides her figure.

15

 Oct 17, 2012 at 11:14 PM RalphWaldoEmerson Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is upset by women davening at the kosel has issues to deal with. I'd rather they be davening in whatever nusach they wish at whatever decibel level they wish rather than out shopping or running around the beach in very untzinusdik bathing suits. They are doing no harm to anyone and should be left alone.

The issue isn't women at the Kosel it's them cross-dressing and singing aloud

16

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:08 AM Reb Yid Says:

I guess they don't believe in dina demalchusa dina.

17

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:19 AM PashutehYid Says:

I hope people realize that this makes us look like Taliban in the eyes of the world. There are plenty of stories of Gedolim who made it their business to walk away or wait outside their own houses, rather than dreaming of disturbing women, even a cleaning lady, who wants to sing.

In addition, there may be heterim for them to sing as part of davening anyway.

There is something really wrong here.

18

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:30 AM TexasJew Says:

I know this lady and before you go crazy on her, know the following;
She was born in Chicago and she's a total nut job, got thrown out of many schools in her younger days, has very few friends, and most of her family doesn't even acknowledge her anymore.
She doesn't even have a nice voice.
Another words- a total loser.

19

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:43 AM Anonymous Says:

rashis daughter wore tefilin

20

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:45 AM yussi Says:

You let a few in, and there goes the neighborhood.

Where did I hear that line before.

What does say about the role of frum Jews in the zionist medinah.

21

 Oct 18, 2012 at 01:22 AM yoilykokosh Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

The secular gave up the wall in the first place and they'd do it again for a phony peace treaty. In 1948, BenGurion of less than blessed memory did not want to take the Jewish Quarter and instead let the Arabs have it. The charedim davened there quietly and respectfully from the beginning of the yishuv hayoshon. It was "religious" tzioini gangsters who caused the friction between Arabs and Jews there.

B"H the "religous tzionim" fought for the kosel and the Jewish quarter!!!

22

 Oct 18, 2012 at 01:25 AM yoilykokosh Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

The secular gave up the wall in the first place and they'd do it again for a phony peace treaty. In 1948, BenGurion of less than blessed memory did not want to take the Jewish Quarter and instead let the Arabs have it. The charedim davened there quietly and respectfully from the beginning of the yishuv hayoshon. It was "religious" tzioini gangsters who caused the friction between Arabs and Jews there.

And I also wonder what caused the "friction" between the Germans and the Jews!

23

 Oct 18, 2012 at 03:19 AM reasonable mom Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is upset by women davening at the kosel has issues to deal with. I'd rather they be davening in whatever nusach they wish at whatever decibel level they wish rather than out shopping or running around the beach in very untzinusdik bathing suits. They are doing no harm to anyone and should be left alone.

Do you find their short-sleeved low-cut t-shirts" tzniustdik"?I'd rather they got into bathing suits and took their act to the beach!

24

 Oct 18, 2012 at 06:43 AM Yawvous Says:

Reply to #1  
nombody Says:

Vata'an Lahem Miryam "Shiru L'hashem Ki Gaoh Ga'ah" - Shemot 15:21.
Vatashar Devora u'Varak Ben Avinoam - Shofetim 5:1

Don't get the wrong impression: by the wording VaTaan & Vatashar Devora UBarak etc is a sign that the songs of the women were low keyed, sung in unison with the men in a modest audibility. Not like Mrs Hoffman, who is trying to make a spectacle of herself. If she would be doing the same at a mosque, she would be thrown out all together with no pity or publicity. But - of course, it's popular to knock the Torah....Hashem Yishmor

25

 Oct 18, 2012 at 06:49 AM Yawvous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is upset by women davening at the kosel has issues to deal with. I'd rather they be davening in whatever nusach they wish at whatever decibel level they wish rather than out shopping or running around the beach in very untzinusdik bathing suits. They are doing no harm to anyone and should be left alone.

I disagree. Standards which are upheld universally for all religions should not be bent. There should be no concessions for Yiddishkeit. The Kotel is governed by Misrad HaDatot which have their protocol on Jewish religious services and individuals should not infringe any personal services in contradiction or lack of respect of the accepted rules. Mrs Hoffman would NOT do the same in the Vatican and would repect the feelings of the locals- this is no different

26

 Oct 18, 2012 at 06:52 AM Yawvous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is upset by women davening at the kosel has issues to deal with. I'd rather they be davening in whatever nusach they wish at whatever decibel level they wish rather than out shopping or running around the beach in very untzinusdik bathing suits. They are doing no harm to anyone and should be left alone.

Women of the Wall- heh heh......sounds like a roller derby team

27

 Oct 18, 2012 at 07:25 AM Babishka Says:

There is an old story about the Baal Shem Tov. One day a poor, ignorant peasant boy wandered into the Baal Shem Tov's shtibel, and suddenly began to jump and do handsprings in front of the aron hakodesh. The Hasidim wanted to escort him out of the shul but the Baal Shem Tov said "Loz em shrpingen un tanzen, Der Oibershter gleicht zein avodah, he tut dos fun ganzen harzen."

28

 Oct 18, 2012 at 08:06 AM Benny Says:

What a disgusting פרוצה
They should lock her up for mor

29

 Oct 18, 2012 at 08:39 AM The-Macher Says:

Reply to #17  
PashutehYid Says:

I hope people realize that this makes us look like Taliban in the eyes of the world. There are plenty of stories of Gedolim who made it their business to walk away or wait outside their own houses, rather than dreaming of disturbing women, even a cleaning lady, who wants to sing.

In addition, there may be heterim for them to sing as part of davening anyway.

There is something really wrong here.

What is wrong is your pandering to those who desecrate the Kosel. No Taliban here - there is a time and place for everything and "the world" respects the sanctity of the Kosel more than many Jews do.

30

 Oct 18, 2012 at 09:13 AM qazxc Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

rashis daughter wore tefilin

Total myth. No source for this story.

31

 Oct 18, 2012 at 10:29 AM PashutehYid Says:

All these commentors who think they are doing the RBSH a great favor by sticking up for the RBSH's honor should kindly take a look at the last Rashi in Yisro. Rashi says clearly that the entire purpose of kovod hamikdash is to serve as an example for kovod habriyos. Some people here would do the exact opposite; protect kovod hamikdash at the expense of the kovod of these women.

If they were doing something violent like spitting at the Kosel, I could see arresting them for vandalism. But for DAVENING???

We have got a long way to go before we are ready for Moshiach.

We have truly done the Taliban proud.

32

 Oct 18, 2012 at 10:35 AM kweanbea Says:

Reply to #18  
TexasJew Says:

I know this lady and before you go crazy on her, know the following;
She was born in Chicago and she's a total nut job, got thrown out of many schools in her younger days, has very few friends, and most of her family doesn't even acknowledge her anymore.
She doesn't even have a nice voice.
Another words- a total loser.

Who are you talking about?
Lesley Sachs grew up in Haifa and Anat Hoffman is from Tel Aviv.

33

 Oct 18, 2012 at 11:08 AM PashutehYid Says:

Reply to #18  
TexasJew Says:

I know this lady and before you go crazy on her, know the following;
She was born in Chicago and she's a total nut job, got thrown out of many schools in her younger days, has very few friends, and most of her family doesn't even acknowledge her anymore.
She doesn't even have a nice voice.
Another words- a total loser.

Totally inappropriate comment. What is the heter? You could also probably get sued in a court of law for defamation.

34

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:07 PM benalt Says:

Reply to #1  
nombody Says:

Vata'an Lahem Miryam "Shiru L'hashem Ki Gaoh Ga'ah" - Shemot 15:21.
Vatashar Devora u'Varak Ben Avinoam - Shofetim 5:1

Where does it say that they sang around the men?

35

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM benalt Says:

Reply to #17  
PashutehYid Says:

I hope people realize that this makes us look like Taliban in the eyes of the world. There are plenty of stories of Gedolim who made it their business to walk away or wait outside their own houses, rather than dreaming of disturbing women, even a cleaning lady, who wants to sing.

In addition, there may be heterim for them to sing as part of davening anyway.

There is something really wrong here.

The frum women who are the majority there don't like them either and don't want them interfering there.

36

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM benalt Says:

Reply to #17  
PashutehYid Says:

I hope people realize that this makes us look like Taliban in the eyes of the world. There are plenty of stories of Gedolim who made it their business to walk away or wait outside their own houses, rather than dreaming of disturbing women, even a cleaning lady, who wants to sing.

In addition, there may be heterim for them to sing as part of davening anyway.

There is something really wrong here.

Either way - so what? Where does it say she wore them publicly and not in private?

37

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:17 PM Butterfly Says:

To #19 Didn't Michal?

38

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:27 PM Santa's Helper Says:

Reply to #17  
PashutehYid Says:

I hope people realize that this makes us look like Taliban in the eyes of the world. There are plenty of stories of Gedolim who made it their business to walk away or wait outside their own houses, rather than dreaming of disturbing women, even a cleaning lady, who wants to sing.

In addition, there may be heterim for them to sing as part of davening anyway.

There is something really wrong here.

"I hope people realize that this makes us look like Taliban in the eyes of the world".
As opposed to what they think of "US" now!? They hate us anyway
"There are plenty of stories of Gedolim who made it their business to walk away or wait outside their own houses, rather than dreaming of disturbing women"
So all men visitors and frum Jews should either walk away or run home and wait in thier homes till these nuts leave?
"In addition, there may be heterim for them to sing as part of davening anyway".
THere are? name one place where it says women should or MAY sing LOUD during davening with a regular shul minyin? There is a comment amounst the poskim on whether the issur of "kol eeshaw" is problematic if more then one women sing at the same time.
"There is something really wrong here".
Yes there is. Not something but someone! That would be YOU and these women!

39

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:33 PM Shemp Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

rashis daughter wore tefilin

Rashi or Rabbaynu Tams? Your point proves just the opposite of what your trying to say. If one or 2 women (out of millions of women) put on tefillin, -not at the kosel or in any public place but in a tszinesdik manner-it just proves that women DON'T and SHOULDN'T do it, not that it's OK!!

40

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:35 PM Rangers Goalie Says:

Reply to #27  
Babishka Says:

There is an old story about the Baal Shem Tov. One day a poor, ignorant peasant boy wandered into the Baal Shem Tov's shtibel, and suddenly began to jump and do handsprings in front of the aron hakodesh. The Hasidim wanted to escort him out of the shul but the Baal Shem Tov said "Loz em shrpingen un tanzen, Der Oibershter gleicht zein avodah, he tut dos fun ganzen harzen."

You just said nothing.

41

 Oct 18, 2012 at 12:15 PM Mergetroid Says:

Reply to #11  
shredready Says:

because you are. where does it say in the torah one cannot hear a womans voice? and anyway it was the secular who sacrificed blood to recapture the wall not the ultra orthodx. when you spill blood then you can have a say

That's about the dumbest thinking I've ever read on this site!

42

 Oct 18, 2012 at 03:58 PM ShmuelG Says:

Reply to #31  
PashutehYid Says:

All these commentors who think they are doing the RBSH a great favor by sticking up for the RBSH's honor should kindly take a look at the last Rashi in Yisro. Rashi says clearly that the entire purpose of kovod hamikdash is to serve as an example for kovod habriyos. Some people here would do the exact opposite; protect kovod hamikdash at the expense of the kovod of these women.

If they were doing something violent like spitting at the Kosel, I could see arresting them for vandalism. But for DAVENING???

We have got a long way to go before we are ready for Moshiach.

We have truly done the Taliban proud.

No. If you could understand a written text, it would become obvious to you that these chalerias were arrested for singing in loud voices and cross-dressing, not for dovening.

Also, since they have no respect for themselves, their forcible removal is actually does more for their kovod then for the kovod of the makom.

43

 Oct 18, 2012 at 04:01 PM PashutehYid Says:

Reply to #38  
Santa's Helper Says:

"I hope people realize that this makes us look like Taliban in the eyes of the world".
As opposed to what they think of "US" now!? They hate us anyway
"There are plenty of stories of Gedolim who made it their business to walk away or wait outside their own houses, rather than dreaming of disturbing women"
So all men visitors and frum Jews should either walk away or run home and wait in thier homes till these nuts leave?
"In addition, there may be heterim for them to sing as part of davening anyway".
THere are? name one place where it says women should or MAY sing LOUD during davening with a regular shul minyin? There is a comment amounst the poskim on whether the issur of "kol eeshaw" is problematic if more then one women sing at the same time.
"There is something really wrong here".
Yes there is. Not something but someone! That would be YOU and these women!

First, there is plenty of room for the men to move to the left side where they won't see or hear these women.

Second, I believe the Seridei Eish gives a heter to sing Shabbos songs in mixed company.

But more than that, I really wonder whether you have a Jewish heart. The mishna says the 3 characteristics of a Jew are Rachmanim, bayshanim, gomlei chassadim.

Let us look at the last Rashi in Yisro. The pasuk says one should not go up to the mizbeach on steps, so that his ervah should not be uncovered. Rather, one should use a ramp. Pretty straightforward pasuk. But Rashi seems to be bothered, the mizbeach is only a bunch of stones, what does it care if someone's ervah is uncovered? So Rashi Hakadosh answers it is to teach us a kal vachomer. Umah avanim halalu sh'ein bahen daas lhakpid al bizyonan amrah torah ho'il vyesh bahen tzorech lo tenaheg bahem minhag bizayon, chavercha shehu bedmus yotzrecha umakpid al bizyono al achas kamah vkamah. If the Torah tells us not to do anything disgraceful to a bunch of stones which have no intelligence to care about their disgrace, but since they serve a purpose, we must not treat them disrespectfully; a person who is created in the form of G-d, and who does care about being disgraced, al achas kamah vkamah. For every measure of respect we give to the stones, we must give many many times more to humans. Al achas kamah vkamah. Simple pshat in Rashi.

If it is a kal vachomer, then which is the kal and which is the chomer. Rashi is saying that kovod hamikdash is the kal, while kavod habriyos is the chomer. If you think the mizbeach has special intrinsic kedushah, then it would be a pirchah on the kal vachomer.

The lesson of the Kosel is that each of its stones has no other purpose other than to teach us how to treat our fellow humans. Period.

44

 Oct 18, 2012 at 04:50 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #29  
The-Macher Says:

What is wrong is your pandering to those who desecrate the Kosel. No Taliban here - there is a time and place for everything and "the world" respects the sanctity of the Kosel more than many Jews do.

I'll bite. Why is the singing of women a violation of sanctity -- an intrinsically evil thing?
You make it sound like she's eating a cheeseburger.
That being said, it is a provocation and i dont have a lot of sympathy for that organization. Still, just because we are provoked doesnt mean we have to take the bait.

45

 Oct 19, 2012 at 10:42 AM PashutehYid Says:

This picture of police coming to arrest these harmless ladies for davening is very very disturbing. No different than how they arrest women for driving in Saudi Arabia.

46

 Oct 19, 2012 at 01:05 PM Santa's Helper Says:

Reply to #43  
PashutehYid Says:

First, there is plenty of room for the men to move to the left side where they won't see or hear these women.

Second, I believe the Seridei Eish gives a heter to sing Shabbos songs in mixed company.

But more than that, I really wonder whether you have a Jewish heart. The mishna says the 3 characteristics of a Jew are Rachmanim, bayshanim, gomlei chassadim.

Let us look at the last Rashi in Yisro. The pasuk says one should not go up to the mizbeach on steps, so that his ervah should not be uncovered. Rather, one should use a ramp. Pretty straightforward pasuk. But Rashi seems to be bothered, the mizbeach is only a bunch of stones, what does it care if someone's ervah is uncovered? So Rashi Hakadosh answers it is to teach us a kal vachomer. Umah avanim halalu sh'ein bahen daas lhakpid al bizyonan amrah torah ho'il vyesh bahen tzorech lo tenaheg bahem minhag bizayon, chavercha shehu bedmus yotzrecha umakpid al bizyono al achas kamah vkamah. If the Torah tells us not to do anything disgraceful to a bunch of stones which have no intelligence to care about their disgrace, but since they serve a purpose, we must not treat them disrespectfully; a person who is created in the form of G-d, and who does care about being disgraced, al achas kamah vkamah. For every measure of respect we give to the stones, we must give many many times more to humans. Al achas kamah vkamah. Simple pshat in Rashi.

If it is a kal vachomer, then which is the kal and which is the chomer. Rashi is saying that kovod hamikdash is the kal, while kavod habriyos is the chomer. If you think the mizbeach has special intrinsic kedushah, then it would be a pirchah on the kal vachomer.

The lesson of the Kosel is that each of its stones has no other purpose other than to teach us how to treat our fellow humans. Period.

1) there is plenty of room for the men to move to the left side where they won't see or hear these women".
There is? Where? when? And why should men or women be forced to move away from women who are DAVKA that's DAVKA singing out loud and making this ruckus in order to make a femenist point and in order to disturb the status quo. They are not doing it l'shaim Shomyim.
2)" I believe the Seridei Eish gives a heter to sing Shabbos songs in mixed company..
You found one heter? Great but that's not a) the majority opinion and b) that's not what the p'shat is. The shayla was whether the issur of "kol eeshaw" applies to a group of women as well. And an example was like at a shabbos table where there is FAMILY and the shayla went even further and asked about a sister (mature) singing in front of a brother and THAT IS where and why he used the term Shabbos table. If you don't understand b) refer back to a).

As far as your last point, from your point the kal v'chomer is backward. Madoch the wall would be embarrassed to hear a women singing (just like you I can bring a proof from Chana and her 7 sons, about what zichus did she have that all her 7 sons were zoche to be kohanim continued---

47

 Oct 19, 2012 at 01:18 PM Santa's Helper Says:

Reply to #43  
PashutehYid Says:

First, there is plenty of room for the men to move to the left side where they won't see or hear these women.

Second, I believe the Seridei Eish gives a heter to sing Shabbos songs in mixed company.

But more than that, I really wonder whether you have a Jewish heart. The mishna says the 3 characteristics of a Jew are Rachmanim, bayshanim, gomlei chassadim.

Let us look at the last Rashi in Yisro. The pasuk says one should not go up to the mizbeach on steps, so that his ervah should not be uncovered. Rather, one should use a ramp. Pretty straightforward pasuk. But Rashi seems to be bothered, the mizbeach is only a bunch of stones, what does it care if someone's ervah is uncovered? So Rashi Hakadosh answers it is to teach us a kal vachomer. Umah avanim halalu sh'ein bahen daas lhakpid al bizyonan amrah torah ho'il vyesh bahen tzorech lo tenaheg bahem minhag bizayon, chavercha shehu bedmus yotzrecha umakpid al bizyono al achas kamah vkamah. If the Torah tells us not to do anything disgraceful to a bunch of stones which have no intelligence to care about their disgrace, but since they serve a purpose, we must not treat them disrespectfully; a person who is created in the form of G-d, and who does care about being disgraced, al achas kamah vkamah. For every measure of respect we give to the stones, we must give many many times more to humans. Al achas kamah vkamah. Simple pshat in Rashi.

If it is a kal vachomer, then which is the kal and which is the chomer. Rashi is saying that kovod hamikdash is the kal, while kavod habriyos is the chomer. If you think the mizbeach has special intrinsic kedushah, then it would be a pirchah on the kal vachomer.

The lesson of the Kosel is that each of its stones has no other purpose other than to teach us how to treat our fellow humans. Period.

(continued)-Kohanim Gedolim? It was because her ceiling never even SAW her hair! Now you know there is no halacha about "ceilings seeing hair". So if a ceiling can be effected buy exposed hair then a man (or a women) is certainly effected.
The same at the Kosel. The wall itself is embarrassed by the singing and certainly the people around her are hurt and bothered by it.
So where is her/their compassion for us? Aren't they also supposed to be Rachmanim, bayshanim, gomlei chassadim? Why is it you guys are MORE worried about hurting someone's feelings more so then hurting Hashems feelings? If a nice lady offered you a ham sandwich would you eat it in order to not hurt her feelings? After all that's why we had a ramp up to the Mizbayach, -not to hurt feelings, right? Where and how do you draw the line? I'm only Santa's helper. But who are you really? .

48

 Oct 20, 2012 at 08:02 PM PashutehYid Says:

Reply to #47  
Santa's Helper Says:

(continued)-Kohanim Gedolim? It was because her ceiling never even SAW her hair! Now you know there is no halacha about "ceilings seeing hair". So if a ceiling can be effected buy exposed hair then a man (or a women) is certainly effected.
The same at the Kosel. The wall itself is embarrassed by the singing and certainly the people around her are hurt and bothered by it.
So where is her/their compassion for us? Aren't they also supposed to be Rachmanim, bayshanim, gomlei chassadim? Why is it you guys are MORE worried about hurting someone's feelings more so then hurting Hashems feelings? If a nice lady offered you a ham sandwich would you eat it in order to not hurt her feelings? After all that's why we had a ramp up to the Mizbayach, -not to hurt feelings, right? Where and how do you draw the line? I'm only Santa's helper. But who are you really? .

Rabbi Santa, you are totally mixing up things into a whirlpool. First, the Kosel Plaza is big enough so that if the men move towards the left side, or into the tunnel section they would not hear them. They are there for what, an hour or two a month? If the women were barging into the men's side of the mechitzah, I could agree with you, but they are not.

As far as the business of Kimchis whose house never saw her hair, you well know that is not a halacha, but only a midas chassidus. Furthermore, the wall does not get embarrassed or hurt, either; not her house and not the Kosel and not the mizbeach. They are not alive, and that Rashi confirms.

The RBSH does not get hurt, either. As a matter of fact, he would allow his name to be erased by Parshas Sotah to make shalom.

As far as eating a ham sandwich, I can politely refuse and explain to the lady I don't eat for religious reasons. That is much different than forbidding yenem from doing something which is not at all clear if there is anything wrong to begin with, and can be solved by my walking farther away.

Can these women improve in tznius? Yes, but insulting and arresting will not raise their level of observance, and will only leave them with a bitter taste towards yiddishkeit. Treating them kindly with divrei chachamim bnachas nishmaim, may well increase their ahavas Torah.

49

 Oct 21, 2012 at 05:34 AM ShiraP Says:

Reply to #18  
TexasJew Says:

I know this lady and before you go crazy on her, know the following;
She was born in Chicago and she's a total nut job, got thrown out of many schools in her younger days, has very few friends, and most of her family doesn't even acknowledge her anymore.
She doesn't even have a nice voice.
Another words- a total loser.

Wow. How many violations of halakha are in this little gem? Let's see: lashon ha-ra, a very strong possibility of motzi shem ra, rekhilus, ona'as devarim and a possibility of lo tikom ve-lo titor. Which just goes to show that when certain people feel uncomfortable, they feel perfectly free to throw halakha out the window and do whatever they want. "She sang in public, she prays wearing a tallit, she does stuff that makes me feel uncomfortable and threatened. So now, she's fair game and I'm gonna dish the dirt on her big-time. Whee! I'm gonna have me some fun!"

Well, I have news for you, TexasJew -- what you have done is a serious violation of halakha, and all the more so because it is compounded by malice. For a woman to pray while wearing a tallit is not against halakha, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable. But your deliberately malicious ad hominem comment violates some of the most serious Torah prohibitions, and saying, "Well, she did such-and-such first" does not make it right.

Looks like you've got some serious teshuva to do, my friend.

50

 Oct 21, 2012 at 06:11 PM A woman who was there Says:

Reply to #7  
yaakov doe Says:

She could have at least covered herself better with the tallis.

She was. Then the policeman requested that she wear it like a scarf (just around her neck) instead of like a tallit.

51

 Oct 22, 2012 at 08:32 AM PashutehYid Says:

Reply to #50  
A woman who was there Says:

She was. Then the policeman requested that she wear it like a scarf (just around her neck) instead of like a tallit.

Can you imagine, in a civilized country, police are telling someone how to wear a shawl? There is something very wrong with this episode. I am surprised more people don't get it. Really, anybody who could get upset over a woman wearing a talis has way too much time on their hands. Unfortunately, there are people in this world suffering with real problems like health and other issues, and would love to trade places with somebody whose worse problem is a talis.

52

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