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Jerusalem - Israel's Women Of The Wall Pray For Equality

Published on: December 16, 2012 12:15 AM
By: AP
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Israeli women of the Women of the Wall organization pray just outside the Western Wall, the holiest site where Jews can pray, in Jerusalem's old city, Friday, Dec. 14, 2012. Security guards at the Western Wall, the holiest place where Jews can pray, usually search worshippers for weapons upon entering. But on Friday, they were on the lookout for a seemingly inoffensive possession: Jewish prayer shawls. The shawls are ubiquitous at the holy site, and under Orthodox tradition, are worn only by men. When several dozen women draped in them attempted to enter the area, their multicolored garments were confiscated. (AP Photo/Dan Balilty)Israeli women of the Women of the Wall organization pray just outside the Western Wall, the holiest site where Jews can pray, in Jerusalem's old city, Friday, Dec. 14, 2012. Security guards at the Western Wall, the holiest place where Jews can pray, usually search worshippers for weapons upon entering. But on Friday, they were on the lookout for a seemingly inoffensive possession: Jewish prayer shawls. The shawls are ubiquitous at the holy site, and under Orthodox tradition, are worn only by men. When several dozen women draped in them attempted to enter the area, their multicolored garments were confiscated. (AP Photo/Dan Balilty)

Jerusalem - Israeli security guards at the Western Wall on Friday searched women worshippers arriving at the holiest place where Jews can pray for a seemingly inoffensive object — the Jewish prayer shawl, which under the Orthodox tradition can be worn only by men.

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Once the shawls were found, dozens of women had to deposit them before proceeding to pray in the section reserved for women. A few, who managed to sneak the shawls in under their coats and wrapped them around their shoulders, were promptly evicted or detained.

Similar scenes have played out almost a dozen times every year since the group known as Women of the Wall was first established nearly 25 years ago.

Its members have endured arrests, heckling and legal battles in a struggle to attain what they consider their inalienable right — to pray and worship at the Western Wall like men do.

Under Israel’s predominantly Orthodox Jewish tradition, only men may wear a prayer shawl, a skullcap and phylacteries. Liberal Reform Judaism, marginal in Israel but the largest denomination in the United States, allows women to practice the same way as men do in Orthodox Judaism: they may be ordained as rabbis, read from the Torah, the Jewish holy book, and wear prayer shawls.

The multi-denominational Women of the Wall adheres to that liberal stream. Since 1988, its members have come to the holy site 11 times a year to pray on the first day of the new Jewish month, except on the New Year.

The police know they are coming and are on the lookout. The group’s members have been repeatedly detained, as soon as they are perceived to be offending Orthodox sensibilities — such as carrying a Torah scroll or if they try to drape themselves in the shawls. They are usually released after a few hours.

They have never been charged — evidence, the women say, that what they are doing is not illegal.

“We want to have the ability to pray out loud, to wear a prayer shawl, to read the Torah. And we want to do it without fear at the Western Wall,” said Anat Hoffman, the group’s chairwoman.

Opponents see the Jerusalem-based group, which has hundreds of members and supporters, as provocateurs or kooky agitators. Supporters say they are civil rights activists working to achieve equality. Angry worshippers have hurled plastic chairs at them while others have yelled and taunted them.

Hoffman, who has been detained several times in the past, was held in 2010 for several hours after she brought a Torah scroll to the Western Wall — another violation for Orthodox Jews, who do not allow women to hold the Torah.

A video of the event shows police attempting to pry the scroll away from her as she shouts back: “It’s mine.” Hoffman also spent a night in jail in October, when she was banished by a court from the Wall for 30 days.

She says a lack of religious pluralism in Israel has prevented the group from achieving its goals.

While most Israelis are secular, Judaism has a formal place in the country’s affairs and Orthodox rabbis strictly govern religious events such as weddings, divorces, and burials for the Jewish population. Also, the ultra-Orthodox are perennial kingmakers in Israeli coalition politics, though they make up only about 10 percent of the country’s population.

Israel’s Orthodox establishment was also granted responsibility for the Western Wall and seeks to ensure its traditions are followed there.

“We try to follow the customs that our grandfathers did, what was done 100 years ago, 200 years ago, and we try to keep extremism away,” said the Western Wall rabbi, Shmuel Rabinowitz.

The Women of the Wall “insist on coming here just to stoke the flames, to cause a provocation,” he said, adding that if other customs were permitted, “there would be chaos.”

The police say they are enforcing a Supreme Court decision from 2003, which ruled that allowing the group to pray with the shawls at the Western Wall constituted a danger to public safety. The women have been offered an alternative place nearby where they can don the shawls, wear phylacteries and read from the Torah. They use the place but continue to demand full access to the Wall.

More liberal streams of Judaism have been hard-pressed just to be recognized in Israel, which only this year granted funding for non-Orthodox rabbis. The plight of the Women of the Wall also highlights a growing rift between the world’s two largest Jewish communities, the one in Israel and the one in the U.S.

Reform and Conservative streams, which are large in the U.S., have been at odds with Orthodox Israeli rabbis in Israel. Many members and supporters of Women of the Wall are American and are appalled at the authorities’ reaction to their attempts to wear the shawls and pray at the Wall.

Laura Geller, a rabbi at Temple Emanuel of Beverly Hills in Los Angeles, was one of the women forced to leave her prayer shawl behind on Friday.

“It’s interesting that Israel is one of the few countries in the world where I can’t be the Jew that I am,” she said, a blue and white skullcap placed atop her grey curls. “The Wall needs to be big enough for us to find a way to share it.”


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1

 Dec 16, 2012 at 12:39 AM ALTERG Says:

Foy, ladies with tfilin & a talis? Vin pls take down the pic.

2

 Dec 16, 2012 at 02:02 AM RobertS Says:

"civil rights activists" is correct. That's what they are. But this is not a civil matter. This is a religious matter. Hoffman says "It's mine" about holding the Torah. Of course, it's all about her, always about her, not about the Jewish law and tradition represented by the Torah she called "mine". She does not do this for kiddush hashem, but kiddush Hoffman. She does not practice Judaism, but idol worship... the elevation of self over God and Torah.

3

 Dec 16, 2012 at 02:02 AM my-opinion Says:

Reply to #1  
ALTERG Says:

Foy, ladies with tfilin & a talis? Vin pls take down the pic.

Though the picture is disgusting indeed, VIN is just reporting the news with a picture to the article. I don't get your point...

4

 Dec 16, 2012 at 03:14 AM shlomogabai Says:

I love the way they love to be percieved as the persecuted. The fact is, there is a jewish law, a talmud, a halacha, a shulchan aruch, which defines many of these laws for plural judaism. If anybody decides to change many or amy of these laws, he has the full right to do so. The problem is that even though by birth they might be jewish, by religion they ARE NOT! When you take a religion and make it conform to your comfortability, you started a new religion. Now when you call it the same old religion you are stealing the religions name for your new religion.

Main point, we (loyal to our jewish law) are being persecuted! We cannot daven together with people of a different religion! Which means its either we can daven there or well have to move out (based on halacha) sooo they are attempting to deny our right to our religion, by our religions holiest site.

5

 Dec 16, 2012 at 04:04 AM Mayer Says:

Reply to #1  
ALTERG Says:

Foy, ladies with tfilin & a talis? Vin pls take down the pic.

Altberg, you are falling into the trap many others do. Despite its Yiddish sounding name VIN is not a heimish site. These women are a rachmonus. They should be related to as we relate to others with mental health disabilities.

6

 Dec 16, 2012 at 06:57 AM Secular Says:

According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin.

Sources to follow..

7

 Dec 16, 2012 at 07:09 AM ayoyo Says:

Well historically speaking all types of Jews were allowed to ascend to the temple Perushim, Tsudikim , Essenim women and others - kal v;chomer to pray at the foot of the temple wall.This isn't the western wall written about in sfarim., as a part of the western wall of the temple stood foe hundreds of years after the churban.

8

 Dec 16, 2012 at 07:27 AM Chelmite Says:

Why are you giving them any recognition
by posting this item
Modern Orthodox ChelmiTe

9

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:01 AM Mordechai_Ben_Yaakov Says:

Nebech! It's a tragedy that these women will turn their backs on the holiness and spirituality that is inherently theirs as women just to be "one of the guys." And they claim to be feminists! All while degrading themselves. HKB"H didn't create us equal and we shouldn't try to change that. שלא עשני אשה.

10

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:16 AM Reb Yid Says:

Most Reform women couldn't care less about talis or tfilin or any other aspect of ritual observance. These are a bunch of far out weirdos who don't represent anyone but themselves.

11

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:18 AM Justleftkolel Says:

I agree that the Kotel should
Be a place that follows Halocha, but Israel is not a religious country, and they need to accommodate all Jews as best they can. Perhaps a better compromise can be made, althought the Kotel is pretty small, I'm not sure how that would play out.

12

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:22 AM Anonymous Says:

For all the problems in the world, this is what bothers you? While it isn't mandatory for women to wear tefillin and tallis, it's NOT against halacha. Just leave them alone.

13

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:38 AM ??? Says:

Let there prayers go for good use. children are being senselessly murdered in Eretz Yisroel and in America, let them pray to end that.

14

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:44 AM qazxc Says:

Reply to #2  
RobertS Says:

"civil rights activists" is correct. That's what they are. But this is not a civil matter. This is a religious matter. Hoffman says "It's mine" about holding the Torah. Of course, it's all about her, always about her, not about the Jewish law and tradition represented by the Torah she called "mine". She does not do this for kiddush hashem, but kiddush Hoffman. She does not practice Judaism, but idol worship... the elevation of self over God and Torah.

Levochain levovos byom din.....

Is that you? Sounds like you are the one who mistaken himself for Gd.

Maybe they are simply misguided? No one but the RBS"O knows.

15

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:50 AM qazxc Says:

Reply to #6  
Secular Says:

According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin.

Sources to follow..

Please stop trying to confuse VIN readers with the facts.

Small minded people are more comfortable tossing around insults than thinking things through and doing a little learning. Why think about WHY they don't see the beauty of Orthodox yiddishkeit and how to bring them around when we can sit and make choizik?

16

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:54 AM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #6  
Secular Says:

According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin.

Sources to follow..

"According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin"

That's odd, because in שלחן ערוך אורח חיים סימן ל"ח סעיף ג, the מחבר states:

נשים ועבדים פטורים מתפילין מפני שהוא מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא

And, the רמ"א adds:

ואם הנשים רוצין להחמיר על עצמן מוחים בידן

We have an obligation to protest! To which ראשונים do you refer? Or, are we making unsupported statements today?

17

 Dec 16, 2012 at 10:00 AM basmelech Says:

The question is why do they want to wear Talleisim and tefilin. What are they praying anyway - which nusach? Theyjust want to make noise and get attention. I daven every day, have a connection to Hashem and don't feel the need for some attention getting gimmick to do so. Why do they need it?

18

 Dec 16, 2012 at 10:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
my-opinion Says:

Though the picture is disgusting indeed, VIN is just reporting the news with a picture to the article. I don't get your point...

So many Jewish men don't lay tefillin, and yet these women want to?

Weird.

19

 Dec 16, 2012 at 10:56 AM Secular Says:

To # 16

אַל-תְּבַהֵל עַל-פִּיךָ וְלִבְּךָ אַל-יְמַהֵר, לְהוֹצִיא דָבָר--לִפְנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים: כִּי הָאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם וְאַתָּה עַל-הָאָרֶץ, עַל-כֵּן יִהְיוּ דְבָרֶיךָ מְעַטִּים

The RambaM writes: Hilchos sefer Torah writes:
כל הטמאין ואפילו נדות ואפילו כותי מותר לאחוז ספר תורה ולקרות בו. שאין דברי תורה מקבלין טומאה. והוא שלא יהיו ידיו מטונפות או מלוכלכות בטיט אלא ירחצו ידיהם ואח"כ יגעו בו

in Hilchos Tztzis : 3:9
ו. נשים ועבדים וקטנים פטורין מן הציצית מן התורה. ומדברי סופרים שכל קטן שיודע להתעטף חייב בציצית כדי לחנכו במצות. ונשים ועבדים שרצו להתעטף בציצית מתעטפים בלא ברכה. וכן שאר מצות עשה שהנשים פטורות מהן אם רצו לעשות אותן בלא ברכה אין ממחין בידן. טומטום ואנדרוגינוס חייבין בכולן מספק לפיכך אין מברכין אלא עושין בלא ברכה

So certainly Tumah and Tahara DO NOT play a role in the wearing of Tziztzis or Tefilin according to the RambaM, AND the Shulchan Aruch, who ONLY stated that they are exempt -NOT forbidden. Even the ReMa, who said we dissuade them from wearing Tefilkin is only because of their belief that women would not have a "Guf Naki" irrespective of Niddah.

continued....

20

 Dec 16, 2012 at 11:02 AM MeInGolus Says:

Reply to #1  
ALTERG Says:

Foy, ladies with tfilin & a talis? Vin pls take down the pic.

At least one of Rashis daughters was wearing tefillin. What do YOU have against it?

22

 Dec 16, 2012 at 11:42 AM Secular Says:

As I stated the RambaM seems to have no issue with women wearing Tefilin.

The Shulchan Aruch brought above states only that women are exempt.

The Gemarah In Eruvin 96a-b: states that Michal daughter of Shaul Hamelech wore Tefilin WITHOUT the objection of the sages. Tosafos in Eruvin and Rosh Hashana 33a-b seems more concerned with a woman's ability to recite a bracha on a mitzva that she is not required to perform than the actual performance of a given mitzva. A woman can and does perform the mitzva of shofar, Lulav, Succah, and according to the RambaM tzitzis as well why not Tefilin.?

In fact a woman was also permitted to recite a beracha on the Torah (an Aliya) according to the talmud in Megila 23a.

However: Yonasan ben Uziel in Devarim 22:5 translates the Pasuk as a prohibition on women wearing Tefilin. Indeed it seems that the Acharonim (under the influence of Mekubalim) distanced themselves from the concept of women wearing Tefilin.

Granted, today some of the women who wear tefilin do so for reasons other than the performance of a Mitzva, but the issue is certainly not Black or White...or Techeles..

#16 look these things up, you may learn something.

23

 Dec 16, 2012 at 11:58 AM esther Says:

Reply to #9  
Mordechai_Ben_Yaakov Says:

Nebech! It's a tragedy that these women will turn their backs on the holiness and spirituality that is inherently theirs as women just to be "one of the guys." And they claim to be feminists! All while degrading themselves. HKB"H didn't create us equal and we shouldn't try to change that. שלא עשני אשה.

true,we'er not all equal;women are the crown of creation! that's why we don't need external reminders like talis,tefiln or yamalkas. sorry guys.

24

 Dec 16, 2012 at 12:04 PM esther Says:

Reply to #17  
basmelech Says:

The question is why do they want to wear Talleisim and tefilin. What are they praying anyway - which nusach? Theyjust want to make noise and get attention. I daven every day, have a connection to Hashem and don't feel the need for some attention getting gimmick to do so. Why do they need it?

rabbi laura geller says they want to stop her" from being the jew that i am". and that's the whole issue.it's not what Hashem wants,what the torah teaches.it's what each one makes up as she goes along according to what makes her feel good.

25

 Dec 16, 2012 at 12:22 PM TexasJew Says:

To #1- I think the pictures of your friend Weberman all over the news was a lot worse than these women who are putting on talaysim. Get your priorities straight.

26

 Dec 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM MiriamP Says:

Disabled male Jews, many of whom are not chayav in mitzvos to the same extent women are not chayav, have schools and organizations and the entire community's encouragement to do mitzvos (tzitzis, tefillin, etc, etc.). No one questions their motives- perhaps they are not acting l'shem shomayim? Perhaps they haven't finished their perfection of performance of other commandments? Perhaps they just want attention?

But women! Should women desire to reach out to Hashem and participate in mitzvos they are likewise not obligated in, OY!. They are evil, stupid, misguided. Against Torah, violating halacha, they must be stopped, they are arrogant and superficial, looking for attention only.

Double standard much?

27

 Dec 16, 2012 at 12:36 PM qazxc Says:

Reply to #20  
MeInGolus Says:

At least one of Rashis daughters was wearing tefillin. What do YOU have against it?

That is a legend. There is no record of such a thing.

28

 Dec 16, 2012 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:

These misguided persons are merely exhibitionists. Obviously, they get an adrenaline rush from behaving in a manner offensive to others. When an issue surfaces which relates to differential treatment/privileges of women, either their brains turn off as they rush to join the fray or they, like the Zionists before them, move to erode, interfere, and attack Torah observance. Their crass exhibitionism is proven by their insistence on conducting their activity at the Kosel. They would find no fulfillment playing their games in a private room or garden somewhere.

Ask them, "What other mitzvos do you perform?" It is a short list. Anat Hoffman was asked once, "Hypothetically, would you be offended by a demand of some Jews for J to place a beautifully decorated pine tree in front of the Kosel during the month of December?" She responded, "Rabbi Rabinowitz, Kosel Rav, has ruled that this group is not Jewish. Case closed." Steera: Rav R has ruled against Anat. Case closed.

Someone once asked rhetorically, “Who said the best in Judaism is what the men do (talis, tefillin, etc.)?” I understand why these women are more interested in doing those things that men do…heinous envy!

29

 Dec 16, 2012 at 01:35 PM esther Says:

Reply to #26  
MiriamP Says:

Disabled male Jews, many of whom are not chayav in mitzvos to the same extent women are not chayav, have schools and organizations and the entire community's encouragement to do mitzvos (tzitzis, tefillin, etc, etc.). No one questions their motives- perhaps they are not acting l'shem shomayim? Perhaps they haven't finished their perfection of performance of other commandments? Perhaps they just want attention?

But women! Should women desire to reach out to Hashem and participate in mitzvos they are likewise not obligated in, OY!. They are evil, stupid, misguided. Against Torah, violating halacha, they must be stopped, they are arrogant and superficial, looking for attention only.

Double standard much?

perhaps their motives are pure but oh so very misguided. btw,we hae plenty of mitzvas to reach out to Hashem with,some which only a woman can do. let's focus on those.

30

 Dec 16, 2012 at 02:44 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #19  
Secular Says:

To # 16

אַל-תְּבַהֵל עַל-פִּיךָ וְלִבְּךָ אַל-יְמַהֵר, לְהוֹצִיא דָבָר--לִפְנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים: כִּי הָאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם וְאַתָּה עַל-הָאָרֶץ, עַל-כֵּן יִהְיוּ דְבָרֶיךָ מְעַטִּים

The RambaM writes: Hilchos sefer Torah writes:
כל הטמאין ואפילו נדות ואפילו כותי מותר לאחוז ספר תורה ולקרות בו. שאין דברי תורה מקבלין טומאה. והוא שלא יהיו ידיו מטונפות או מלוכלכות בטיט אלא ירחצו ידיהם ואח"כ יגעו בו

in Hilchos Tztzis : 3:9
ו. נשים ועבדים וקטנים פטורין מן הציצית מן התורה. ומדברי סופרים שכל קטן שיודע להתעטף חייב בציצית כדי לחנכו במצות. ונשים ועבדים שרצו להתעטף בציצית מתעטפים בלא ברכה. וכן שאר מצות עשה שהנשים פטורות מהן אם רצו לעשות אותן בלא ברכה אין ממחין בידן. טומטום ואנדרוגינוס חייבין בכולן מספק לפיכך אין מברכין אלא עושין בלא ברכה

So certainly Tumah and Tahara DO NOT play a role in the wearing of Tziztzis or Tefilin according to the RambaM, AND the Shulchan Aruch, who ONLY stated that they are exempt -NOT forbidden. Even the ReMa, who said we dissuade them from wearing Tefilkin is only because of their belief that women would not have a "Guf Naki" irrespective of Niddah.

continued....

"So certainly Tumah and Tahara DO NOT play a role in the wearing of Tziztzis or Tefilin according to the RambaM,"

What are you talking about? Not one of your מקורות has anything to do with תפילין! All you do is come to ridiculous solutions not based on anything! Please desist from such nonsense!

31

 Dec 16, 2012 at 03:44 PM Secular Says:

To # 19

וְהָסֵר כַּעַס מִלִּבֶּךָ, וְהַעֲבֵר רָעָה מִבְּשָׂרֶךָ: כִּי-הַיַּלְדוּת וְהַשַּׁחֲרוּת, הָבֶל

Tumah and Tahara do NOT preclude a man fro wearing Tefilin or Reading or touching a Sefer Torah... look at the RambaM I quoted earlier. A Guf Naki is NOT related to Tumah or Taharah... Furthermore the RambaM in Hilchos tefilin writes:

כל הפטור מקריאת שמע פטור מתפילין. קטן שיודע לשמור תפיליו אביו לוקח לו תפילין כדי לחנכו במצות. חולי מעים וכל מי שלא יכול לשמור את נקביו אלא בצער פטור מן התפילין. וכל הטמאים כולן חייבין בתפילין כטהורים. מצטער ומי שאין דעתו מיושבת ונכונה עליו פטור מן התפילין שהמניח תפילין אסור לו להסיח דעתו מהן. כהנים בשעת העבודה והלוים בשעה שאומרים השיר על הדוכן וישראל בשעה שעומדים במקדש פטורין מן התפלה ומן התפילין:

Rashi's daughter may be a legend but Shaul's daughter and Yonah,s wife are open Gemarahs, Eruvin 96, and Tosfos there.

32

 Dec 16, 2012 at 04:48 PM bewhiskered Says:

"but Shaul's daughter and Yonah,s wife are open Gemarahs"

Wrong! The wife of יונה did not put on תפילין. She was עולה לרגל:

ואשתו של יונה היתה עולה לרגל ולא מיחו בה חכמים

And, as far as מיכל is concerned, רש"י states:

דהוי כתוספת על דברי תורה

Which shows her actions were wrong! And, this is how you prove that women may wear תפילין today? Ridiculous! Stop already!!!

33

 Dec 16, 2012 at 06:21 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #31  
Secular Says:

To # 19

וְהָסֵר כַּעַס מִלִּבֶּךָ, וְהַעֲבֵר רָעָה מִבְּשָׂרֶךָ: כִּי-הַיַּלְדוּת וְהַשַּׁחֲרוּת, הָבֶל

Tumah and Tahara do NOT preclude a man fro wearing Tefilin or Reading or touching a Sefer Torah... look at the RambaM I quoted earlier. A Guf Naki is NOT related to Tumah or Taharah... Furthermore the RambaM in Hilchos tefilin writes:

כל הפטור מקריאת שמע פטור מתפילין. קטן שיודע לשמור תפיליו אביו לוקח לו תפילין כדי לחנכו במצות. חולי מעים וכל מי שלא יכול לשמור את נקביו אלא בצער פטור מן התפילין. וכל הטמאים כולן חייבין בתפילין כטהורים. מצטער ומי שאין דעתו מיושבת ונכונה עליו פטור מן התפילין שהמניח תפילין אסור לו להסיח דעתו מהן. כהנים בשעת העבודה והלוים בשעה שאומרים השיר על הדוכן וישראל בשעה שעומדים במקדש פטורין מן התפלה ומן התפילין:

Rashi's daughter may be a legend but Shaul's daughter and Yonah,s wife are open Gemarahs, Eruvin 96, and Tosfos there.

In Post #6 you stated:

"According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin. Sources to follow.."

So, who are these ראשונים? Who are they?

34

 Dec 16, 2012 at 08:03 PM Materetsky Says:

So rediculous --- instead of spending all their effort doing mitzvahs that DON'T APPLY TO THEM i.e. tallis and tefillin why don't they focus on mitzvahs that do like TZNIUS, COVERING HAIR, and oh I don't know, Shabbos and Kosher?

Maybe they do keep the later two, but according to Reform this is not required. Nebuch.

35

 Dec 16, 2012 at 09:04 PM Secular Says:

To # 33

וְאָמַרְתִּי אָנִי, טוֹבָה חָכְמָה מִגְּבוּרָה; וְחָכְמַת הַמִּסְכֵּן בְּזוּיָה, וּדְבָרָיו אֵינָם נִשְׁמָעִים

דִּבְרֵי חֲכָמִים, בְּנַחַת נִשְׁמָעִים--מִזַּעֲקַת מוֹשֵׁל, בַּכְּסִילִים.

Relax and read carefully.


The RambaM I quoted earlier, states that women can wear Tzitzis.

The other RambaM I quoted, states that Tumah does not preclude people from reading/ holding a Sefer Torah.

The Third RambaM I quoted says that Tumah does not exempt one from wearing Tefilin.

Nowhere does the RambaM say women are forbidden to wear Tefillin, and neither does the Shulchan Aruch. Being exempt does not make it forbidden.

Michal Wore Tefilin which is a time bound mitzva, and Yona's wife was Olah Regel also a time bound mitzva ,because It's NOT like they are adding to mitzvos !!

Rashi is explaining the "Heveh Amina' of the Gemarah. In conclusion they ARE allowed and may perform time bound Mitzvos; like Succah and Lulav, and Shofar and according to the RambaM Tzitzis as well. It is the acharonim (like the ReMa and others) who dissuade women from wearing Tefillin. Look up all my sources and you'll learn something.


Shalom

36

 Dec 16, 2012 at 09:05 PM Anon Says:

Poor men. There are so many problems in the world and yet you are others by a group of women who seek only to daven at our holiest site, wearing items that are not religiously prohibited and reading from a Torah that was also given to them. Your contempt for women is disgusting, as are your obvious feelings of inadequacy. No one is persecuting you; other Jews are just refusing to give in to your culture of discrimination.

37

 Dec 16, 2012 at 09:27 PM MiriamP Says:

Reply to #29  
esther Says:

perhaps their motives are pure but oh so very misguided. btw,we hae plenty of mitzvas to reach out to Hashem with,some which only a woman can do. let's focus on those.

esther- why do you feel comfortable judging a woman's motives as misguided when you would never presume to do so about a man with a disability? Next time you see a developmentally challenged individual putting on tefillin, ask yourself what his motives are and whether they are misguided. Ask yourself whether there are other mitzvos maybe he could work on instead and whether he should focus on those first.

38

 Dec 16, 2012 at 11:00 PM esther Says:

Reply to #37  
MiriamP Says:

esther- why do you feel comfortable judging a woman's motives as misguided when you would never presume to do so about a man with a disability? Next time you see a developmentally challenged individual putting on tefillin, ask yourself what his motives are and whether they are misguided. Ask yourself whether there are other mitzvos maybe he could work on instead and whether he should focus on those first.

miriam ,i think it says something if you're comparing a developmentally disabled individual's motives and reasoning to a typical,healthy women. i say this as the mother of a man with autism.

39

 Dec 17, 2012 at 12:12 AM MiriamP Says:

Reply to #38  
esther Says:

miriam ,i think it says something if you're comparing a developmentally disabled individual's motives and reasoning to a typical,healthy women. i say this as the mother of a man with autism.

Aagh... I'm not comparing the motivations. I'm pointing out that with the developmentally delayed individual- we don't inquire into motives. We're just happy he's interested.

40

 Dec 17, 2012 at 02:23 AM Anon Says:

Reply to #36  
Anon Says:

Poor men. There are so many problems in the world and yet you are others by a group of women who seek only to daven at our holiest site, wearing items that are not religiously prohibited and reading from a Torah that was also given to them. Your contempt for women is disgusting, as are your obvious feelings of inadequacy. No one is persecuting you; other Jews are just refusing to give in to your culture of discrimination.

typo correction

...yet you are bothered by a group of women...

41

 Dec 17, 2012 at 07:42 AM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #35  
Secular Says:

To # 33

וְאָמַרְתִּי אָנִי, טוֹבָה חָכְמָה מִגְּבוּרָה; וְחָכְמַת הַמִּסְכֵּן בְּזוּיָה, וּדְבָרָיו אֵינָם נִשְׁמָעִים

דִּבְרֵי חֲכָמִים, בְּנַחַת נִשְׁמָעִים--מִזַּעֲקַת מוֹשֵׁל, בַּכְּסִילִים.

Relax and read carefully.


The RambaM I quoted earlier, states that women can wear Tzitzis.

The other RambaM I quoted, states that Tumah does not preclude people from reading/ holding a Sefer Torah.

The Third RambaM I quoted says that Tumah does not exempt one from wearing Tefilin.

Nowhere does the RambaM say women are forbidden to wear Tefillin, and neither does the Shulchan Aruch. Being exempt does not make it forbidden.

Michal Wore Tefilin which is a time bound mitzva, and Yona's wife was Olah Regel also a time bound mitzva ,because It's NOT like they are adding to mitzvos !!

Rashi is explaining the "Heveh Amina' of the Gemarah. In conclusion they ARE allowed and may perform time bound Mitzvos; like Succah and Lulav, and Shofar and according to the RambaM Tzitzis as well. It is the acharonim (like the ReMa and others) who dissuade women from wearing Tefillin. Look up all my sources and you'll learn something.


Shalom

You wrote:

"According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin."

So, who are these ראשונים who allow women to wear תפילין? Don't give me what you think (incorrectly) the רמב"ם said. Show me one ראשון, who has ever made such a remark! You made the statement originally, but you can't back it up with any legitimate מקורות, can you?

42

 Dec 17, 2012 at 11:50 AM Secular Says:

Reply to #41  
bewhiskered Says:

You wrote:

"According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin."

So, who are these ראשונים who allow women to wear תפילין? Don't give me what you think (incorrectly) the רמב"ם said. Show me one ראשון, who has ever made such a remark! You made the statement originally, but you can't back it up with any legitimate מקורות, can you?

And yet you continue being stubborn.

The RambaM says they may wear tzitzis. He also says, they can perform ANY time bound mitzva. (Including Tefillin). I have demonstrated that Tuma plays no role in the wearing of tefilin, yet you refuse to acknowledge the RambaM chapter and verse. You simply spout and project your biases on the words of the Rishonim.

43

 Dec 17, 2012 at 01:49 PM bewhiskered Says:

"And yet you continue being stubborn"

As you continue to be incapable of naming any ראשונים who allow women to wear תפילין, I am not interested in your ridiculous דרשות on טומאה or anything else! You made a statement saying, "According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin," and you can't back it up with any proper מקורות, and you never will, because none exist! You insist on misrepresenting the תורה by making unsupported statements, because your little ego can't handle being called out on your complete lack of any knowledge. Next time, prior to posting anything anywhere, think about the people who are going to ask you to prove your statements! Please don't bother responding any more with your made up on the spot תורה!

44

 Dec 17, 2012 at 02:21 PM Secular Says:

On the contrary my friend (?)2) the onus is on you.
You have not brought any Rishonim which forbid women from wearing tefillin. The RambaM and Shulchan Aruch say they are exempt. They DONT forbid it.

I have refuted you points and demonstrated my points. Yet all you do is hurl insults. I bet you didn't even look at the RambaM

45

 Dec 17, 2012 at 02:54 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #44  
Secular Says:

On the contrary my friend (?)2) the onus is on you.
You have not brought any Rishonim which forbid women from wearing tefillin. The RambaM and Shulchan Aruch say they are exempt. They DONT forbid it.

I have refuted you points and demonstrated my points. Yet all you do is hurl insults. I bet you didn't even look at the RambaM

"On the contrary my friend (?)2) the onus is on you"

You completely misrepresent the תורה for your own ego! I have already cited the רמ"א, who stated:

ואם הנשים רוצין להחמיר על עצמן מוחים בידן

You on the other hand, have cited nothing! You said, "According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin." And, you have been unable to provide one ראשון who openly makes such a statement! Stop misrepresenting the תורה
now!

46

 Dec 17, 2012 at 02:57 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #44  
Secular Says:

On the contrary my friend (?)2) the onus is on you.
You have not brought any Rishonim which forbid women from wearing tefillin. The RambaM and Shulchan Aruch say they are exempt. They DONT forbid it.

I have refuted you points and demonstrated my points. Yet all you do is hurl insults. I bet you didn't even look at the RambaM

"The RambaM and Shulchan Aruch say they are exempt. They DONT forbid it."

But, earlier you said, "According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin" Where is that openly stated? To defend your pathetic little ego, you keep changing your position on every post, and I will call you out on it every time!

47

 Dec 17, 2012 at 04:12 PM Secular Says:

The RambaM writes women can wear tzitzis, LOOK at the posts! And the aforementioned poskim state that women can perform ANY mitzva that is time bound or which they are exempt. They should not recite a beracha, however.

48

 Dec 17, 2012 at 05:20 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #47  
Secular Says:

The RambaM writes women can wear tzitzis, LOOK at the posts! And the aforementioned poskim state that women can perform ANY mitzva that is time bound or which they are exempt. They should not recite a beracha, however.

"The RambaM writes women can wear tzitzis,"

מזל טוב

You wrote:

"According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin."

So, who are these ראשונים who allow women to wear תפילין? Don't give me what you think (incorrectly) the רמב"ם said. Show me one ראשון, who has ever made such a remark!

49

 Dec 17, 2012 at 05:39 PM Secular Says:

Reply to #46  
bewhiskered Says:

"The RambaM and Shulchan Aruch say they are exempt. They DONT forbid it."

But, earlier you said, "According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin" Where is that openly stated? To defend your pathetic little ego, you keep changing your position on every post, and I will call you out on it every time!

Yes, The RambaM states in hilchos Tzitzis, that women can wear tzitzis if they want to. Similarly he states: that women can perform ANY mitzva (by inference Tefilin) if they so desire so long as they don't recite the Beracha and we DON'T rebuke them.

I also demonstrated in the RambaM, that Tumah and Tahara do not preclude the wearing of Tefilin or touching of a sefer Torah.

The Shulchan Aruch states that women are exempt from Tefilin. To which the ReMa responds, contrary to what is CORRECTLY inferred from the Shulchan Aruch.

Nowhere to the RambaM or the shulchan Aruch forbid women from donning Tefilin, Their position is that women can perform ANY mitzva though not commanded, that means; in English, that they CAN wear Tefilin.

The Chinuch (also a Rishon) in Mitzva 221 states that women CAN wear Tefilin if they so desire, and we do NOT dissuade or rebuke them.

My position in my posts has not changed.

more...

50

 Dec 17, 2012 at 05:43 PM Secular Says:

....Chinuch:

Mitzva of Tefilin Parshas VeEschanan Women can wear Tefilin if they want to...


read, read, read.

You best leave your ego and biases at the door...

51

 Dec 17, 2012 at 06:16 PM Secular Says:

Reply to #48  
bewhiskered Says:

"The RambaM writes women can wear tzitzis,"

מזל טוב

You wrote:

"According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin."

So, who are these ראשונים who allow women to wear תפילין? Don't give me what you think (incorrectly) the רמב"ם said. Show me one ראשון, who has ever made such a remark!

It is you who have changed your positions in your posts.

At first you refused to concede that Rishonim would permit women wearing tzitzis. Until you belatedly read the RambaM, or hit your head. Finally, you agreed that the RambaM does allow Women to wear Tzitzis, yet you have this hang up about Tefilin.

A Thorough reading of the RambaM in Hilchos Tzitzis, Mezuza, Tefilin and Sefer Torah indicates that women CAN wear Tefilin and that indeed is what is inferred from the RambaM and subsequently the Shulchan Aruch by the ReMa.

The Chinuch in VaEschanan (421) writes unequivocally that women CAN wear Tefilin if they want to.

What amazes me, is that instead of having an elevated and spirited halachic disscussion with Mekoros from Shas and Poskim, you choose to insult, denigrate and degrade. It's bad enough, had you been correct and I in error in my analysis hat you would have been a gentleman, or Talmid chacham and pointed out our lapse. But it is the contrary, and in your arrogance and petulance fail to see the words of the poskim as they are, free biases and prejudice., and insert YOUR ego and YOUR biases into everything you write- Chilul Hashem..

52

 Dec 17, 2012 at 06:38 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #49  
Secular Says:

Yes, The RambaM states in hilchos Tzitzis, that women can wear tzitzis if they want to. Similarly he states: that women can perform ANY mitzva (by inference Tefilin) if they so desire so long as they don't recite the Beracha and we DON'T rebuke them.

I also demonstrated in the RambaM, that Tumah and Tahara do not preclude the wearing of Tefilin or touching of a sefer Torah.

The Shulchan Aruch states that women are exempt from Tefilin. To which the ReMa responds, contrary to what is CORRECTLY inferred from the Shulchan Aruch.

Nowhere to the RambaM or the shulchan Aruch forbid women from donning Tefilin, Their position is that women can perform ANY mitzva though not commanded, that means; in English, that they CAN wear Tefilin.

The Chinuch (also a Rishon) in Mitzva 221 states that women CAN wear Tefilin if they so desire, and we do NOT dissuade or rebuke them.

My position in my posts has not changed.

more...

"Similarly he states: that women can perform ANY mitzva (by inference Tefilin)"

That is your inference, not that of the רמב"ם! What is your מקור for such an inference? You? You wrote, "According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin."

So, who are these ראשונים who allow women to wear תפילין? Please don't give me any more of your inane inferences, just the exact מקור for your original statement! You made the statement, now support it!

53

 Dec 17, 2012 at 06:59 PM Secular Says:

Reply to #52  
bewhiskered Says:

"Similarly he states: that women can perform ANY mitzva (by inference Tefilin)"

That is your inference, not that of the רמב"ם! What is your מקור for such an inference? You? You wrote, "According to Rishonim, women ARE allowed to wear tallis/tefillin."

So, who are these ראשונים who allow women to wear תפילין? Please don't give me any more of your inane inferences, just the exact מקור for your original statement! You made the statement, now support it!

Read the chinuch and RambaM

As above...

54

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