West Bank - AP Exclusive: Palestinians Aim To Isolate Israel |
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FILE - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, (C) attending a meeting of the Palestinian faction leaders, at his headquarter in the West Bank town of Ramallah, 04 December 2012. EPAWest Bank - Weeks ahead of Israeli elections, Palestinian officials are already plotting a series of tough steps against Israel to be taken if, as polls predict, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is re-elected and peace efforts remain stalled.
Emboldened by their newly upgraded status at the United Nations, the Palestinians are talking of filing war crimes charges against Israel, staging mass demonstrations in the West Bank, encouraging the international community to impose sanctions, and ending the security cooperation that has helped preserve quiet in recent years.
These plans, combined with growing international impatience with Israeli settlement construction on occupied land, could spell trouble and international isolation for the Israeli leader.
In a series of interviews with The Associated Press, a number of Palestinian officials all voiced a similar theme: Following the U.N. General Assembly’s recognition of “Palestine” as a nonmember observer state in November, the status quo cannot continue.
“2013 will see a new Palestinian political track. There will be new rules in our relationship with Israel and the world,” said Hussam Zumlot, an aide to President Mahmoud Abbas.
Israeli-Palestinian peace talks broke down shortly before Netanyahu’s election in early 2009 and have remained frozen throughout his term, mostly due to the dispute over Israel’s construction of settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank. The Palestinians claim the areas, along with the Gaza Strip, for a future state. Israel captured the areas in the 1967 Mideast war.
The Palestinians have demanded that Israel halt settlement construction before negotiations can resume, saying the continued building is a show of bad faith. Netanyahu says talks should resume without preconditions, and notes that a 10-month partial freeze on construction he imposed two years ago failed to bring about substantive negotiations.
Frustrated with the impasse, the Palestinians turned to the United Nations for recognition of an independent state in the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza. Israel, which withdrew from Gaza in 2005, rejects a return to its 1967 lines.
Although the U.N. vote did not change the situation on the ground, it had deep implications. Opposed by just nine countries, it amounted to a strong international endorsement of the Palestinian position on future borders. It also cleared the way for them to join international agencies to press their grievances against Israel.
Netanyahu has accused the Palestinians of bypassing direct negotiations.
“One would hope we will in fact see in 2013 the re-emergence of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiating process,” said Netanyahu’s spokesman, Mark Regev. “There is no substitute for direct talks. You’re not going to make peace in resolutions at the United Nations or other international forums.”
At the heart of the deadlock are the huge gaps between the two sides’ conditions. Netanyahu has embraced the idea of establishing a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Without action soon, the thinking goes, Israel will find itself in permanent control of millions of disenfranchised Palestinians, threatening its status as a democracy with a Jewish majority. But Netanyahu has added so many caveats, including a refusal to turn Jerusalem into a shared capital and demands to retain significant parts of the West Bank, that the Palestinians believe negotiations would be futile.
Palestinian officials say they are hopeful that a formula for restarting talks can be found after Israel’s election on Jan. 22, perhaps through a new initiative from President Barack Obama.
The Palestinians have begun to speak of a trial, six-month negotiating period. Azzam al-Ahmed, a top aide to Abbas, said Arab diplomats will present the plan in Western capitals, Russia and China next month. But with the Palestinians insistent on a settlement freeze, and opinion polls forecasting a new hardline Israeli coalition headed by Netanyahu, expectations are low.
The Palestinian officials said they will not rush toward any punitive measure, but they are determined not to stand pat.
“We have to prepare ourselves for a long and tough battle,” added Yasser Abed Rabbo, secretary-general of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the Palestinians’ top decision making body. “We will use all the political tools available.”
Among the options being considered is halting cooperation between Israeli and Palestinian security forces in the West Bank. The cooperation is widely seen as a key element in preserving the calm in the West Bank in recent years, in sharp contrast to the heavy fighting a decade ago.
“There will be no security cooperation as long as there is no political horizon,” said Mohammed Ishtayeh, a Palestinian Cabinet minister.
The Palestinians also talk of increasing “popular struggle,” the term they use for demonstrations against Israeli soldiers. Such face-to-face confrontations frequently turn tense, with protesters throwing stones and troops firing tear gas and water cannons, and run the risk of growing more violent.
Perhaps most troubling to Israel, the Palestinians also want to use their upgraded status on the world stage to push for international action against Israel.
Officials say they will move to join the International Criminal Court, where they hope to pursue war crimes charges against Israel for its settlement activities. Although the road to taking legal action in the ICC appears to be long and complicated, it nonetheless has made Israeli officials jittery.
“We are going to pursue this policy to reach a point of having the international community impose sanctions on Israel,” said Qais Abdelkareem, another PLO official.
This Palestinian agenda, while ambitious, is likely to encounter stiff resistance from both Israel and its international allies. Israel has a number of tools at its disposal, including possible military or economic pressure on the Palestinians. Israel’s allies in the West, particularly the U.S., will also likely shield it from any attempt to impose broad international sanctions, at least in the near term.
But there are signs that international patience with Israel is wearing thin. There was strikingly sharp anger over the Israeli plan to build thousands of new settler homes in response to the Palestinian bid at the U.N.
The U.S., using especially harsh language, accused Israel of engaging in a “pattern of provocative action.” All the members of the U.N. Security Council except the U.S. denounced the Israeli settlement plans at a special meeting this week.
The European Union has also condemned the planned construction. The 27-member bloc issued a statement earlier this month raising the possibility of requiring Israel to label any exports that originate in the settlements. It also noted that future cooperation agreements would not include territories captured in 1967, including east Jerusalem, which Israel claims as an integral part of its capital. There are fears that individual European states might impose sanctions of their own.
An Israeli official said the extent of the international uproar had caught officials off guard. “Something has changed,” he said. “Clearly a line has been crossed.” He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was discussing closed diplomatic meetings.
Yossi Beilin, a former deputy foreign minister and peace negotiator, said there is “no way” the status quo can continue and that Netanyahu “understands that this situation where the U.S. is the only one to support Israel cannot go on forever.” He said Netanyahu, after pandering to hard-liners during the election campaign, will likely try to bring in a centrist party into his coalition after the vote to give the government an image of moderation.
“Reality might impose itself in such a way that we will find him doing things, like maybe an interim agreement with the Palestinians or something that seems now unexpected,” Beilin said. “He will make small steps to appease adversaries. And to Netanyahu, the whole world is an adversary.”
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Read Comments (35) — Post Yours »
1
Dec 20, 2012 at 02:36 PM chosid Says:Report as Inappropriate
To Yossi Beilin, the entire world is our good friend. It must be nice to ignore history.
2
Dec 20, 2012 at 02:57 PM 5TResident Says:Report as Inappropriate
Nothing good will come by building in Yesha, not now anyway. If Israel wants to build, why not concentrate on building water pipelines in the Negev so that it can be settled? The Negev is also part of Eretz Yisroel and nobody is disputing that it is in Israeli territory. There is plenty of room for expansion there.
3
Dec 20, 2012 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Filing war crimes against Israel, are they kidding? isn't Fatah a terrorist organization (from the '80s when Arafat was killing civilian people) and Hamas a terrorist group that is on the USA registered list?
who are they kidding?
4
Dec 20, 2012 at 03:34 PM Butterfly Says:Report as Inappropriate
What happened to Canada?
5
Dec 20, 2012 at 04:25 PM enlightened-yid Says:Report as Inappropriate
Natanyahu will end up being Israel's worst diplomatic blunder! Palestinians are playing a very smart chess game that they are winning because Natanyahu is pouring fuel to the fire with settlement construction that are solely political in nature and don't serve any other need. Natayahu is running out of options and most Israeli leadership understand it.
6
Dec 20, 2012 at 04:32 PM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
Netanyahu is an idiot!
The West Bank Palestinians have been non violent for many years already.
What do you expect them to do?
When they're violent everyone complains. And when they manouver diplomatically everyone complains again.
What would you do if you were Abbas?
7
Dec 20, 2012 at 05:20 PM chosid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Nothing good will come by building in Yesha, not now anyway. If Israel wants to build, why not concentrate on building water pipelines in the Negev so that it can be settled? The Negev is also part of Eretz Yisroel and nobody is disputing that it is in Israeli territory. There is plenty of room for expansion there. ”
Building in the Negev won't stop another Arab state.
8
Dec 20, 2012 at 05:41 PM LionofZion Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Natanyahu will end up being Israel's worst diplomatic blunder! Palestinians are playing a very smart chess game that they are winning because Natanyahu is pouring fuel to the fire with settlement construction that are solely political in nature and don't serve any other need. Natayahu is running out of options and most Israeli leadership understand it. ”
Sure, Shimon Peres and Rabin and Beilin. Those guys were geniuses. Blow up a bus, we give you guns. Blow up another bus, we free a bunch of your friends from jail. Blow up another bus, we leave Gaza. Good system.
Stand firm, Bibi.
Vote for the right wing parties to keep Bibi firm.
9
Dec 20, 2012 at 05:53 PM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Netanyahu is an idiot!
The West Bank Palestinians have been non violent for many years already.
What do you expect them to do?
When they're violent everyone complains. And when they manouver diplomatically everyone complains again.
What would you do if you were Abbas? ”
Sir, everything you say is correct, except for one thing. Israel is our country, and has been so for 4000 years. Why can't we Jews have our tiny sliver of land? Is there any land shortage in the Arab world? Would we Jews make any claim on the holy cities of Mecca or Rome? Why do other nations stick their hands in our holy city?
10
Dec 20, 2012 at 08:32 PM esther Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Nothing good will come by building in Yesha, not now anyway. If Israel wants to build, why not concentrate on building water pipelines in the Negev so that it can be settled? The Negev is also part of Eretz Yisroel and nobody is disputing that it is in Israeli territory. There is plenty of room for expansion there. ”
so you mean that when the arabs finally accept israel,then it will be a good time to build?
11
Dec 20, 2012 at 08:39 PM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sir, everything you say is correct, except for one thing. Israel is our country, and has been so for 4000 years. Why can't we Jews have our tiny sliver of land? Is there any land shortage in the Arab world? Would we Jews make any claim on the holy cities of Mecca or Rome? Why do other nations stick their hands in our holy city? ”
Do you realistically expect that argument to hold any water in any legal system?
I understand. Every Jew has an emotional attachment to the land but we need to be pragmatic here. No one is realistically expelling the Palestinians and everyone agrees that continuing to occupy them and ignoring their desire for some kind of respectful existence as a state is untenable So what options does that leave us.
Our emotional attachments to the land does not behold the Palestinians. And to argue that there are 20 other Arab countries is dumb. It's like...why don't we kick out the Guatemalans and make a state there. After all there are 30 other Latin countries.
The Palestinians view all of Israel as having been taken from them. There's nothing wrong with at the very least acknowledging that there is another narrative here.
If both sides can do that then we might come to a solution.
12
Dec 20, 2012 at 08:40 PM esther Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Natanyahu will end up being Israel's worst diplomatic blunder! Palestinians are playing a very smart chess game that they are winning because Natanyahu is pouring fuel to the fire with settlement construction that are solely political in nature and don't serve any other need. Natayahu is running out of options and most Israeli leadership understand it. ”
our greatest obstacle in this situation is jews like you who think we can't build any where or any thing we want in our own land because of what some goy in paris or copenhagen will say.
13
Dec 20, 2012 at 09:26 PM qazxc Says:Report as Inappropriate
What a waste of time and effort.
Bibi is doing a great job of isolating Israel all by himself.
14
Dec 20, 2012 at 10:35 PM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What a waste of time and effort.
Bibi is doing a great job of isolating Israel all by himself. ”
Hein am lvadad yishkon, uvagoyim lo yischashav. Mi manah afar Yaakov....
15
Dec 20, 2012 at 10:47 PM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Do you realistically expect that argument to hold any water in any legal system?
I understand. Every Jew has an emotional attachment to the land but we need to be pragmatic here. No one is realistically expelling the Palestinians and everyone agrees that continuing to occupy them and ignoring their desire for some kind of respectful existence as a state is untenable So what options does that leave us.
Our emotional attachments to the land does not behold the Palestinians. And to argue that there are 20 other Arab countries is dumb. It's like...why don't we kick out the Guatemalans and make a state there. After all there are 30 other Latin countries.
The Palestinians view all of Israel as having been taken from them. There's nothing wrong with at the very least acknowledging that there is another narrative here.
If both sides can do that then we might come to a solution. ”
Sorry, but if an owner is thrown out of his house, and the thief sits for 25 years, the owner may well come back and take the house.
Secondly, the business of two states is unworkable. Suppose the Christians in Israel want their own state, as well. And then suppose the Shiites who hate the Sunnis say they want a separate state, too, as they can't get along. Do we divide the land into 4? Do we give each their own airspace and airforce and army in the tiny area which is greater Israel? Come on, man. The land can't support this nonsense. Life may not be perfect for Israeli Arabs or Palestinians. But I'll tell you one secret....it's a heck of a lot better than in any of their own backwards and dysfunctional countries. It has nothing to do with land. It is their pride which is wounded, and unfortunately, there is little we can do about that.
16
Dec 20, 2012 at 11:17 PM Unasked_Question Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Netanyahu is an idiot!
The West Bank Palestinians have been non violent for many years already.
What do you expect them to do?
When they're violent everyone complains. And when they manouver diplomatically everyone complains again.
What would you do if you were Abbas? ”
Thanks for having the courage to say it.
17
Dec 20, 2012 at 11:20 PM Unasked_Question Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Building in the Negev won't stop another Arab state. ”
Nothing will stop it.
Whether we like it or not, sooner or later the Paletinians will get a state...
Peace on earth, v'noimar omein.
18
Dec 21, 2012 at 12:05 AM I_Am_Me Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Natanyahu will end up being Israel's worst diplomatic blunder! Palestinians are playing a very smart chess game that they are winning because Natanyahu is pouring fuel to the fire with settlement construction that are solely political in nature and don't serve any other need. Natayahu is running out of options and most Israeli leadership understand it. ”
I guess you don't live in Israel, which I proudly do. The reasson I say that is because you don't know much about our small country. First of all, we have every right to build anywhere we want to it's our land. Second, we are having serious housing shortage because we stupidly stopped building (therefore this plan of bibis is not only politically motivated). Third, we need to build up this area so that the world stops harrasing us to give back east Jerusalem to the low live arabs.
19
Dec 21, 2012 at 12:16 AM I_Am_Me Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Do you realistically expect that argument to hold any water in any legal system?
I understand. Every Jew has an emotional attachment to the land but we need to be pragmatic here. No one is realistically expelling the Palestinians and everyone agrees that continuing to occupy them and ignoring their desire for some kind of respectful existence as a state is untenable So what options does that leave us.
Our emotional attachments to the land does not behold the Palestinians. And to argue that there are 20 other Arab countries is dumb. It's like...why don't we kick out the Guatemalans and make a state there. After all there are 30 other Latin countries.
The Palestinians view all of Israel as having been taken from them. There's nothing wrong with at the very least acknowledging that there is another narrative here.
If both sides can do that then we might come to a solution. ”
You wouldn't say this if you were a religious jew. The land is ours promised to us by God and whatever dummy thinks that we care or need to care about the worlds legal baloney has no faith in God. Know He's doing everything and is doing a great job at it. Know before He kept us alive when all the countries around Israel attacked us and he can and will do it again. Well done, Bibi you too finally believe in God.
20
Dec 21, 2012 at 01:23 AM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
You're being naive. Abbas stems from Fatah. Fatah was formed in 1964. At that time, the Arabs had the West Bank. Why did they need a Palestine Liberation Organization when they already had "Palestine"?
Hint: They don't want Palestine. They want Israel. However, they will settle for whatever they can get now by whatever means, and seek the rest later. (There is precedence for this in Mohammed's dealings.) Why do you think they will never sign an end of conflict statement, even when Arafat was offered 97% plus the Temple Mount?
Why did they continue to shoot rockets after we gave them Gaza? Do you really think this is a land dispute?
21
Dec 21, 2012 at 01:49 AM esther Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Do you realistically expect that argument to hold any water in any legal system?
I understand. Every Jew has an emotional attachment to the land but we need to be pragmatic here. No one is realistically expelling the Palestinians and everyone agrees that continuing to occupy them and ignoring their desire for some kind of respectful existence as a state is untenable So what options does that leave us.
Our emotional attachments to the land does not behold the Palestinians. And to argue that there are 20 other Arab countries is dumb. It's like...why don't we kick out the Guatemalans and make a state there. After all there are 30 other Latin countries.
The Palestinians view all of Israel as having been taken from them. There's nothing wrong with at the very least acknowledging that there is another narrative here.
If both sides can do that then we might come to a solution. ”
is that what our attachment to ey is,emotional? your post is so full of Ny timesisms it's hard to know where to begin. so far all the so called pragmatism has gotten us is less land and more terrorism,isn't that obvious? next whoooo is this everyone that agrees on anything re the palis?next,respectful existence? yeah maybe if their leaders stop using them as pawns and as a source for extortion. that word narrative,ya' know.pc aside,' there's truth and there's lies.that's it.someone is telling the truth here about who's land it is and where all these so called palistenians really came from and someone is lying. and those liars don't want a separate state;they want it all.look at the giant photo hanging behind abbas;
22
Dec 21, 2012 at 01:55 AM esther Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Thanks for having the courage to say it. ”
what is this idiotic understanding and praise for the palistinians.non violent for years? where were you when hundreds of rockets were falling on israel? not there i guess?
23
Dec 21, 2012 at 08:51 AM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sir, everything you say is correct, except for one thing. Israel is our country, and has been so for 4000 years. Why can't we Jews have our tiny sliver of land? Is there any land shortage in the Arab world? Would we Jews make any claim on the holy cities of Mecca or Rome? Why do other nations stick their hands in our holy city? ”
Do you realistically expect that argument to hold any water in any legal system?
I understand. Every Jew has an emotional attachment to the land but we need to be pragmatic here. No one is realistically expelling the Palestinians and everyone agrees that continuing to occupy them and ignoring their desire for some kind of respectful existence as a state is untenable So what options does that leave us.
Our emotional attachments to the land does not behold the Palestinians. And to argue that there are 20 other Arab countries is dumb. It's like...why don't we kick out the Guatemalans and make a state there. After all there are 30 other Latin countries.
The Palestinians view all of Israel as having been taken from them. There's nothing wrong with at the very least acknowledging that there is another narrative here.
If both sides can do that then we might come to a solution.
24
Dec 21, 2012 at 08:58 AM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ is that what our attachment to ey is,emotional? your post is so full of Ny timesisms it's hard to know where to begin. so far all the so called pragmatism has gotten us is less land and more terrorism,isn't that obvious? next whoooo is this everyone that agrees on anything re the palis?next,respectful existence? yeah maybe if their leaders stop using them as pawns and as a source for extortion. that word narrative,ya' know.pc aside,' there's truth and there's lies.that's it.someone is telling the truth here about who's land it is and where all these so called palistenians really came from and someone is lying. and those liars don't want a separate state;they want it all.look at the giant photo hanging behind abbas; ”
Yes. Right now it's emotional.
We are beholden to the legal courts of the world until moshiach comes.
I believe that hashem gave us a gift that allows us to live on portions of the complete eretz yisroel
I appreciate it.
But I live within the confines of other people and their feelings and opinions.
I'm glad you people who believe that somehow the whole world has your viewpoint as the absolute legal truism are the minority.
You're not much different than the Islamic mullahs.
25
Dec 21, 2012 at 09:29 AM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Sorry, but if an owner is thrown out of his house, and the thief sits for 25 years, the owner may well come back and take the house.
Secondly, the business of two states is unworkable. Suppose the Christians in Israel want their own state, as well. And then suppose the Shiites who hate the Sunnis say they want a separate state, too, as they can't get along. Do we divide the land into 4? Do we give each their own airspace and airforce and army in the tiny area which is greater Israel? Come on, man. The land can't support this nonsense. Life may not be perfect for Israeli Arabs or Palestinians. But I'll tell you one secret....it's a heck of a lot better than in any of their own backwards and dysfunctional countries. It has nothing to do with land. It is their pride which is wounded, and unfortunately, there is little we can do about that. ”
Ok if you want to use that analogy.
How about youre living in your house and someone kicks you out..saying that he lived here 2000 years ago.
Even if he has all the proof in the world you are going to fight to stay.
Aren't you?
26
Dec 21, 2012 at 09:43 AM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
My post #20 was directed at #16. Sorry.
27
Dec 21, 2012 at 10:11 AM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You wouldn't say this if you were a religious jew. The land is ours promised to us by God and whatever dummy thinks that we care or need to care about the worlds legal baloney has no faith in God. Know He's doing everything and is doing a great job at it. Know before He kept us alive when all the countries around Israel attacked us and he can and will do it again. Well done, Bibi you too finally believe in God. ”
You are a dangerous and reckless person.
Unfortunately for you there are billions of more people that believe that God is on their side.
This is not how hashem wants us to be before moshiach comes.
28
Dec 21, 2012 at 10:58 AM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ what is this idiotic understanding and praise for the palistinians.non violent for years? where were you when hundreds of rockets were falling on israel? not there i guess? ”
I said West Bank Palestinians Learn how to read.
29
Dec 21, 2012 at 03:40 PM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Ok if you want to use that analogy.
How about youre living in your house and someone kicks you out..saying that he lived here 2000 years ago.
Even if he has all the proof in the world you are going to fight to stay.
Aren't you? ”
If you want to rely only on current arguments, we still have grounds.
1) Read Mark Twain's famous essay about his trip to Israel over 100 years ago. He says the land was barren and desolate with nary a person in sight. This corroborates the slogan--A land without a people for a people without a land. Most of the Arabs came after his time.
2) There was no Palestinian state, ever. What was it's anthem? It's flag? It was merely a part of Greater Syria, then Transjordan. But if, as you say, the Arab countries are all separate entities, then why did the Palestinians not agitate for a state between '48 and '67? Answer: they were perfectly happy being Jordanians. There never was a Palestinian people or entity.
3) They started all the Israeli wars including the War of Independence when they rejected more than what they want now and tried to exterminate Israel time and time again. You don't set the rules, when you start a fight and lose. Think of the US drug laws. If you commit a crime in your car, they can confiscate your car. You start firing from your land, we will confiscate it.
4) Nobody is throwing out the Palestinians, just telling them that we will build on empty land in and around Jerusalem. They are welcome to stay where they are provided they behave. However, they don't have a good track record of behavior towards Jews, or even toward their fellow Arabs and Muslims who have been killing each other for over a thousand years. Do you really believe a Palestine will be a peaceful and stable state? Fatah and Hamas already killed over a hundred of their fellow Palestinians in a mini civil war just a few years ago.
5) Daniel Pipes has some interesting stats. Since WW2, 11 million Arabs have been killed in conflicts. 10 million of these were killed by fellow Arabs. 35,000 or .035% were killed by Jews. (Need to recheck, so don't quote me yet.)
30
Dec 22, 2012 at 08:27 PM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If you want to rely only on current arguments, we still have grounds.
1) Read Mark Twain's famous essay about his trip to Israel over 100 years ago. He says the land was barren and desolate with nary a person in sight. This corroborates the slogan--A land without a people for a people without a land. Most of the Arabs came after his time.
2) There was no Palestinian state, ever. What was it's anthem? It's flag? It was merely a part of Greater Syria, then Transjordan. But if, as you say, the Arab countries are all separate entities, then why did the Palestinians not agitate for a state between '48 and '67? Answer: they were perfectly happy being Jordanians. There never was a Palestinian people or entity.
3) They started all the Israeli wars including the War of Independence when they rejected more than what they want now and tried to exterminate Israel time and time again. You don't set the rules, when you start a fight and lose. Think of the US drug laws. If you commit a crime in your car, they can confiscate your car. You start firing from your land, we will confiscate it.
4) Nobody is throwing out the Palestinians, just telling them that we will build on empty land in and around Jerusalem. They are welcome to stay where they are provided they behave. However, they don't have a good track record of behavior towards Jews, or even toward their fellow Arabs and Muslims who have been killing each other for over a thousand years. Do you really believe a Palestine will be a peaceful and stable state? Fatah and Hamas already killed over a hundred of their fellow Palestinians in a mini civil war just a few years ago.
5) Daniel Pipes has some interesting stats. Since WW2, 11 million Arabs have been killed in conflicts. 10 million of these were killed by fellow Arabs. 35,000 or .035% were killed by Jews. (Need to recheck, so don't quote me yet.) ”
I'm well aware of Mark Twains quote but we all know that there were jewish settlements and communities in Jerusalem Tzfas Tveria and other locales so his term "barren" needs to be viewed in somewhat of a poetic context.
The ottomans kept records and the census up until about 1890 shows 90% Arab and 10% Jewish. So while that was a nice slogan for Zionist conventions it was not exactly the reality.
As for your argument that there never was a Palestinian state, before World War there weren't most of the countries in the world. From Europe to Africa and Asia the empires were crumbling and nations were being created.
The Palestinians view the sudden influx of European Jews as a great big injustice toward them as they were being bought out and saw the British as part of the conspiracy which they were powerless to stop.
I'm not sayibg that we have to accept everything they say but the first step is to at least try to understand where they're coming from.
I've personally met many Palestinians who are honest people who just want some respect and to live in their own land but the more Israel steps all over them the more radicalized they will become.
The fact is that Abbas and the West Bank has been largely peaceful for the past years. They're building an economy and giving their people hope of a normal life.
Why Netanyahu would want to step all over him now is beyond me.
31
Dec 23, 2012 at 12:38 AM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I'm well aware of Mark Twains quote but we all know that there were jewish settlements and communities in Jerusalem Tzfas Tveria and other locales so his term "barren" needs to be viewed in somewhat of a poetic context.
The ottomans kept records and the census up until about 1890 shows 90% Arab and 10% Jewish. So while that was a nice slogan for Zionist conventions it was not exactly the reality.
As for your argument that there never was a Palestinian state, before World War there weren't most of the countries in the world. From Europe to Africa and Asia the empires were crumbling and nations were being created.
The Palestinians view the sudden influx of European Jews as a great big injustice toward them as they were being bought out and saw the British as part of the conspiracy which they were powerless to stop.
I'm not sayibg that we have to accept everything they say but the first step is to at least try to understand where they're coming from.
I've personally met many Palestinians who are honest people who just want some respect and to live in their own land but the more Israel steps all over them the more radicalized they will become.
The fact is that Abbas and the West Bank has been largely peaceful for the past years. They're building an economy and giving their people hope of a normal life.
Why Netanyahu would want to step all over him now is beyond me. ”
I understand your POV. Nevertheless, the Palestinian grievance boils down to one thing--ego, as nobody is harming them in any way, throwing them out, or telling them how to run their society. They just don't like the idea of the Israeli flag being flown over Jerusalem. That is the gist of it, period.
Now I know you will say that they are restricted by roadblocks, etc. Well, in fact, that is their own doing. If they had't a history of and propensity towards terror, there wouldn't be any need for walls and security fences. And that is why your argument that they have been peaceful for years is incorrect. They have been peaceful because the IDF took severe and stern measures during 2nd intifada to insure that they be peaceful, not out of the goodness of their heart.
32
Dec 23, 2012 at 10:38 AM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I understand your POV. Nevertheless, the Palestinian grievance boils down to one thing--ego, as nobody is harming them in any way, throwing them out, or telling them how to run their society. They just don't like the idea of the Israeli flag being flown over Jerusalem. That is the gist of it, period.
Now I know you will say that they are restricted by roadblocks, etc. Well, in fact, that is their own doing. If they had't a history of and propensity towards terror, there wouldn't be any need for walls and security fences. And that is why your argument that they have been peaceful for years is incorrect. They have been peaceful because the IDF took severe and stern measures during 2nd intifada to insure that they be peaceful, not out of the goodness of their heart. ”
On the flip side you can argue that if they would be peaceful and meek do you think Israel would've rewarded them with a state out of the goodness of their heart?
How many states and countries can you point to in the world that was born without any violence or agitation (including ours)?
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Dec 23, 2012 at 10:41 AM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
Also Abbas and the Prime Minister have made this non violence a strategic decision.
If you've been to Ramallah recently you wouldn't recognize it from years ago.
They are building an infrastructure and economy not only because Israel has made violence too difficult.
Abbas even fared to touch the 3rd rail of Palestinian discourse and acknowledge that there will be no right of return to Israel for displaced Palestinians.
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Dec 23, 2012 at 02:54 PM PashutehYid Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ On the flip side you can argue that if they would be peaceful and meek do you think Israel would've rewarded them with a state out of the goodness of their heart?
How many states and countries can you point to in the world that was born without any violence or agitation (including ours)? ”
That is backwards. They had the West Bank from 48-67, and still used violence to try to destroy Israel proper. If nonviolence was their way, why didn't they A) peacefully ask for a state from Jordan, and B) go about improving their lives and education and scientific knowledge and playing sports and doing whatever regular people do on a daily basis to make life enjoyable and meaningful.
And why don't they do that today, as well. If they are now building up their lives successfully, as you say, then what do they lack, other than flying their flag over Jerusalem? That is why I say this is strictly a question of pride and ego, not any material necessity. They have their own schools, can elect their own mayors, can worship freely, can choose any careers. We Jews often did not have it this good throughout the diaspora, and would have been thrilled with this.
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Dec 23, 2012 at 04:41 PM CommonSense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ That is backwards. They had the West Bank from 48-67, and still used violence to try to destroy Israel proper. If nonviolence was their way, why didn't they A) peacefully ask for a state from Jordan, and B) go about improving their lives and education and scientific knowledge and playing sports and doing whatever regular people do on a daily basis to make life enjoyable and meaningful.
And why don't they do that today, as well. If they are now building up their lives successfully, as you say, then what do they lack, other than flying their flag over Jerusalem? That is why I say this is strictly a question of pride and ego, not any material necessity. They have their own schools, can elect their own mayors, can worship freely, can choose any careers. We Jews often did not have it this good throughout the diaspora, and would have been thrilled with this. ”
We Jews should be thrilled we have anything. Any Jew from 200 years ago would dance on any piece of eretz yisroel. There's plenty of ego involved in our side as well.
The argument that they should be happy with a patchwork state is weak You can make that argument in almost every conflict in the world.
I agree that the Palestinians in their desire to have everything made mistakes in the past as did the Israelis.
The question is how do we move forward?
And the first step in the direction forward is both sides acknowledging that there is another side that deserves to be heard.