New York - Do Penalties For Smokers And The Obese Make Sense? |
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FILE - In this Wednesday, Feb. 14, 2007 file photo, a man smokes in Omaha, Neb. Annual health care costs are roughly $96 billion for smokers and $147 billion for the obese, the government says. These costs accompany sometimes heroic attempts to prolong their lives, including surgery, chemotherapy and other measures. But despite these rescue attempts, smokers tend to die 10 years earlier on average, and the obese die five to 12 years prematurely, according to various researchers' estimates. (AP Photo/Nati Harnik, File)New York - Faced with the high cost of caring for smokers and overeaters, experts say society must grapple with a blunt question: Instead of trying to penalize them and change their ways, why not just let these health sinners die prematurely from their unhealthy habits?
Annual health care costs are roughly $96 billion for smokers and $147 billion for the obese, the government says. These costs accompany sometimes heroic attempts to prolong lives, including surgery, chemotherapy and other measures.
But despite these rescue attempts, smokers tend to die 10 years earlier on average, and the obese die five to 12 years prematurely, according to various researchers’ estimates.
And attempts to curb smoking and unhealthy eating frequently lead to backlash: Witness the current legal tussle over New York City’s first-of-its-kind limits on the size of sugary beverages and the vicious fight last year in California over a ballot proposal to add a $1-per-pack cigarette tax, which was ultimately defeated.
“This is my life. I should be able to do what I want,” said Sebastian Lopez, a college student from Queens, speaking last September when the New York City Board of Health approved the soda size rules.
Critics also contend that tobacco- and calorie-control measures place a disproportionately heavy burden on poor people. That’s because they:
—Smoke more than the rich, and have higher obesity rates.
—Have less money so sales taxes hit them harder. One study last year found poor, nicotine-dependent smokers in New York — a state with very high cigarette taxes — spent as much as a quarter of their entire income on smokes.
—Are less likely to have a car to shop elsewhere if the corner bodega or convenience store stops stocking their vices.
Critics call these approaches unfair, and believe they have only a marginal effect. “Ultimately these things are weak tea,” said Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a physician and fellow at the right-of-center think tank, the American Enterprise Institute.
Gottlieb’s view is debatable. There are plenty of public health researchers that can show smoking control measures have brought down smoking rates and who will argue that smoking taxes are not regressive so long as money is earmarked for programs that help poor people quit smoking.
And debate they will. There always seems to be a fight whenever this kind of public health legislation comes up. And it’s a fight that can go in all sorts of directions. For example, some studies even suggest that because smokers and obese people die sooner, they may actually cost society less than healthy people who live much longer and develop chronic conditions like Alzheimer’s disease.
So let’s return to the original question: Why provoke a backlash? If 1 in 5 U.S. adults smoke, and 1 in 3 are obese, why not just get off their backs and let them go on with their (probably shortened) lives?
Because it’s not just about them, say some health economists, bioethicists and public health researchers.
“Your freedom is likely to be someone else’s harm,” said Daniel Callahan, senior research scholar at a bioethics think-tank, the Hastings Center.
Smoking has the most obvious impact. Studies have increasingly shown harm to nonsmokers who are unlucky enough to work or live around heavy smokers. And several studies have shown heart attacks and asthma attack rates fell in counties or cities that adopted big smoking bans.
“When you ban smoking in public places, you’re protecting everyone’s health, including and especially the nonsmoker,” said S. Jay Olshansky, a professor at the University of Illinois-Chicago’s School of Public Health.
It can be harder to make the same argument about soda-size restrictions or other legislative attempts to discourage excessive calorie consumption, Olshansky added.
“When you eat yourself to death, you’re pretty much just harming yourself,” he said.
But that viewpoint doesn’t factor in the burden to everyone else of paying for the diabetes care, heart surgeries and other medical expenses incurred by obese people, noted John Cawley, a health economist at Cornell University.
“If I’m obese, the health care costs are not totally borne by me. They’re borne by other people in my health insurance plan and — when I’m older — by Medicare,” Cawley said.
From an economist’s perspective, there would be less reason to grouse about unhealthy behaviors by smokers, obese people, motorcycle riders who eschew helmets and other health sinners if they agreed to pay the financial price for their choices.
That’s the rationale for a provision in the Affordable Care Act — “Obamacare” to its detractors — that starting next year allows health insurers to charge smokers buying individual policies up to 50 percent higher premiums. A 60-year-old could wind up paying nearly $5,100 on top of premiums.
The new law doesn’t allow insurers to charge more for people who are overweight, however.
It’s tricky to play the insurance game with overweight people, because science is still sorting things out. While obesity is clearly linked with serious health problems and early death, the evidence is not as clear about people who are just overweight.
That said, public health officials shouldn’t shy away from tough anti-obesity efforts, said Callahan, the bioethicist. Callahan caused a public stir this week with a paper that called for a more aggressive public health campaign that tries to shame and stigmatize overeaters the way past public health campaigns have shamed and stigmatized smokers.
National obesity rates are essentially static, and public health campaigns that gently try to educate people about the benefits of exercise and healthy eating just aren’t working, Callahan argued. We need to get obese people to change their behavior. If they are angry or hurt by it, so be it, he said.
“Emotions are what really count in this world,” he said.
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Read Comments (49) — Post Yours »
1
Jan 27, 2013 at 07:39 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Putting penalties for people in lesser health is akin to locking up your grandmother because she is old. No thanks.
2
Jan 27, 2013 at 07:51 PM Chikkenflayvuh Says:Report as Inappropriate
Of course this doesnt make sense no studies proove that smoking is bad for u and it helps prevent parkinsons
3
Jan 27, 2013 at 08:09 PM A Says:Report as Inappropriate
How do these idiots compare smoking to obesity? A person has to eat to live. A poor person can't afford healthy food. You can spend $1 on a box of pasta and that'll feed a family of four, it'll cost you at least $2 for a head of lettuce and you walk away hungry after eating just that. They're not going to regulate and roll back the price of healthy food so you're going to have people who cannot eat the right foods thereby creating obesity in many poor people. Are the people who contributed to the above article suggesting poor people stop eating entirely and starve?
4
Jan 27, 2013 at 08:25 PM CHANA1 Says:Report as Inappropriate
How can smoking and obesity be equated? Obesity may be due to genes and health factors and doesn't physically affect others. Smoking is totally controllable and affects others tremendously.
5
Jan 27, 2013 at 09:27 PM bored Says:Report as Inappropriate
The biggest problem is that these unhealthy addictions usually begin at an age when American society doesn't hold people accountable for other actions. Smoking is usually taken up mid-teens. Junk food obviously younger. To look at a dying 70 year old and say 'sorry you made this decision at 12 now die from the repercussions' doesn't resonate we'll.
6
Jan 27, 2013 at 09:42 PM Chaim Says:Report as Inappropriate
Smoking and most obesity is self inflicted. It is not like old age.why should everyone else pay for their poor lifestyle choices
7
Jan 27, 2013 at 10:29 PM esther Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ How do these idiots compare smoking to obesity? A person has to eat to live. A poor person can't afford healthy food. You can spend $1 on a box of pasta and that'll feed a family of four, it'll cost you at least $2 for a head of lettuce and you walk away hungry after eating just that. They're not going to regulate and roll back the price of healthy food so you're going to have people who cannot eat the right foods thereby creating obesity in many poor people. Are the people who contributed to the above article suggesting poor people stop eating entirely and starve? ”
beans ,grains, fresh produce in season are very cost effective.it's the sodas,snack foods,copious amounts of animal protein(ebt card accepted here-in the windows of many fast food restaurants) and especially fat intake,think fried food,that cause obesity.
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Jan 27, 2013 at 11:04 PM Norden Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The biggest problem is that these unhealthy addictions usually begin at an age when American society doesn't hold people accountable for other actions. Smoking is usually taken up mid-teens. Junk food obviously younger. To look at a dying 70 year old and say 'sorry you made this decision at 12 now die from the repercussions' doesn't resonate we'll. ”
I was diagnosed with multiple cancer r"l about two months ago. When I queried the word "multiple" the oncologist told me that one of the sites to which the disease had metastasized was my left lung. As I have never smoked a single cigarette (or any other, similar, tobacco product I was quite surprised - to say the very least.
Kindly excuse the gallows humor, but as I am rapidly losing weight (44 pounds in six weeks) I think I might just indulge myself with some junk food.
10
Jan 28, 2013 at 01:04 AM c Says:Report as Inappropriate
My family is genetically obese. My parents were heavy and my siblings are heavy. I was getting heavy and decided to do something about it. I eat healthy whole foods and exercise. So obesity is a choice for most people. Anywayt just like with auto ins and life ins, we reward people who maintain good habits, maybe we should do the same with health ins.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 01:21 AM I_Am_Me Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ beans ,grains, fresh produce in season are very cost effective.it's the sodas,snack foods,copious amounts of animal protein(ebt card accepted here-in the windows of many fast food restaurants) and especially fat intake,think fried food,that cause obesity. ”
While you're right about fried food, everyone should stay away from it, you are extremely off target when you speak if healthy food being cost effective. When I lived in America, I remember spending 1.99 on ONE pepper, one, now how is that going to feed a starving family of let's randomy choose 5 people. A box of noodles costed 99 cents & it can feed 5 easily. Less buck for your bang, and that's just for yiden. Take goyim & thinks become even more of a divide. Fried chicken in a barrel from KFC shouldn't be more than $10 & can feed I think 20. How many people can you feed with $10 worth of salad, especially if one pepper costs $1.99?
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Jan 28, 2013 at 02:57 AM bewhiskered Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Of course this doesnt make sense no studies proove that smoking is bad for u and it helps prevent parkinsons ”
"Of course this doesnt make sense no studies proove (sic.) that smoking is bad for u and it helps prevent parkinsons (sic.)."
You're kidding, right? Your medical knowledge is as bad as your spelling!
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Jan 28, 2013 at 06:26 AM Greener Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ How can smoking and obesity be equated? Obesity may be due to genes and health factors and doesn't physically affect others. Smoking is totally controllable and affects others tremendously. ”
"Smoking ... affects others tremendously.†Now that's a crock. Second hand smoking was invented by the Nazi's in the early 30's. They called it "Passivrauchen". Since then no reliable research has shown this to be true. So in 1992 the EPA just declared it to be true. End of story. It does not matter how many statistical studies have shown that there is no reliable evidence. "Second hand smoke" is just a tool to get people to stop smoking. Now I'll get back to my Cuban cigar (Romeo & Juliet No.2).
As far as obesity: Genes, shmeens. If you eat like a pig you get fat like a pig. In my shul when there is a kiddush I see the FAT people stuff it in, cholent, kugel, etc. non-stop. You fress, you're fat.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 07:28 AM bored Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I was diagnosed with multiple cancer r"l about two months ago. When I queried the word "multiple" the oncologist told me that one of the sites to which the disease had metastasized was my left lung. As I have never smoked a single cigarette (or any other, similar, tobacco product I was quite surprised - to say the very least.
Kindly excuse the gallows humor, but as I am rapidly losing weight (44 pounds in six weeks) I think I might just indulge myself with some junk food. ”
I'm sorry to hear that & I hope you have a refuah shileima. And no excuse for gallows humer is ever needed for me. I'm just wondering what I wrote that you felt the need to respond to me. I wasn't trying to be preachy, I was trying to be milamed zchus.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 07:58 AM Benny Says:Report as Inappropriate
Let's make a law - if you don't exercise in gym with a trainer twice a week - you pay double taxes,
Mr Bloomberg is happy - you control people's life even more, Mr Obama is happy - we just created few millions of jobs (trainers, gym stuff, government supervisors, riot police, IRS workers) and it's good for people and more money for government!
16
Jan 28, 2013 at 08:22 AM Materetsky Says:Report as Inappropriate
The reason that obesity and smoking (choices) are other people's business is because we pay for it in healthcare.
So when I drive through BedStuy, a mostly welfare neighborhood, and see all the people seem to be overweight, it is a bit annoying knowing that I will pay about $20,000 for healthcare (insurance) for my family of 2 and also have to pay for theirs while they eat terrible foods .
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Jan 28, 2013 at 08:24 AM Actuary Says:Report as Inappropriate
Yes why not price health insurance like life based on your health. (and by the way I would pay more bec I am overwieght but I would lose wieght very quickly when it hits my pocket). To those concerned about low income families;
1) They can all afford I-phones they can afford better healthier foods.
2) restructre food stamps to be like wic only healthy foods can be purchased with it.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 09:22 AM shredready Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The reason that obesity and smoking (choices) are other people's business is because we pay for it in healthcare.
So when I drive through BedStuy, a mostly welfare neighborhood, and see all the people seem to be overweight, it is a bit annoying knowing that I will pay about $20,000 for healthcare (insurance) for my family of 2 and also have to pay for theirs while they eat terrible foods . ”
what a funny comment when I drive through willie and boro park all I see is skinny healthy people who are not on any government programs
or is your problem that you are paying for fat goyim but fat yiden should be paid for?
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Jan 28, 2013 at 09:24 AM shredready Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Yes why not price health insurance like life based on your health. (and by the way I would pay more bec I am overwieght but I would lose wieght very quickly when it hits my pocket). To those concerned about low income families;
1) They can all afford I-phones they can afford better healthier foods.
2) restructre food stamps to be like wic only healthy foods can be purchased with it. ”
people do respond to economic forces a simple example is seat belts. seat belts use went up when a fine was attached to it
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Jan 28, 2013 at 09:33 AM shredready Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "Smoking ... affects others tremendously.†Now that's a crock. Second hand smoking was invented by the Nazi's in the early 30's. They called it "Passivrauchen". Since then no reliable research has shown this to be true. So in 1992 the EPA just declared it to be true. End of story. It does not matter how many statistical studies have shown that there is no reliable evidence. "Second hand smoke" is just a tool to get people to stop smoking. Now I'll get back to my Cuban cigar (Romeo & Juliet No.2).
As far as obesity: Genes, shmeens. If you eat like a pig you get fat like a pig. In my shul when there is a kiddush I see the FAT people stuff it in, cholent, kugel, etc. non-stop. You fress, you're fat. ”
i“ "Smoking ... affects others tremendously.†Now that's a crock. Second hand smoking was invented by the Nazi's in the early 30's. They called it "Passivrauchen".
Passivrauchen is a german word please provide link to the Nazi study or a web site that the Nazis came up with this, and even if they did, if it is so does not make not so, just because the Nazis said it, T
you obviously have not read any scientific studies since there are many that link genes and obesity, of course that is not the only reason but one cannot dismiss it as a cause
21
Jan 28, 2013 at 09:35 AM shmaltz222 Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I was diagnosed with multiple cancer r"l about two months ago. When I queried the word "multiple" the oncologist told me that one of the sites to which the disease had metastasized was my left lung. As I have never smoked a single cigarette (or any other, similar, tobacco product I was quite surprised - to say the very least.
Kindly excuse the gallows humor, but as I am rapidly losing weight (44 pounds in six weeks) I think I might just indulge myself with some junk food. ”
1) norden please let us know your hebrew name if applicable so we may have you in mind in prayers
2) look into brief fasting before chemo.. apparently it helps significantly protects the healthy cells while allowing the chemo to attack the unhealthy cells
22
Jan 28, 2013 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "Smoking ... affects others tremendously.†Now that's a crock. Second hand smoking was invented by the Nazi's in the early 30's. They called it "Passivrauchen". Since then no reliable research has shown this to be true. So in 1992 the EPA just declared it to be true. End of story. It does not matter how many statistical studies have shown that there is no reliable evidence. "Second hand smoke" is just a tool to get people to stop smoking. Now I'll get back to my Cuban cigar (Romeo & Juliet No.2).
As far as obesity: Genes, shmeens. If you eat like a pig you get fat like a pig. In my shul when there is a kiddush I see the FAT people stuff it in, cholent, kugel, etc. non-stop. You fress, you're fat. ”
well at the very least second hand smoke is annoying.
and i dont need a study to support an simple observation ..when many people are around smoking they get a cold or cough for the next few days
23
Jan 28, 2013 at 09:41 AM PMOinFL Says:Report as Inappropriate
This is lunacy. Smoking and obesity are not the only high-risk behaviors. If you are going to penalize one or two, you penalize them all. We should also tax people who use too much salt, people who eat fatty foods even though their cholesterol is high, people who work in factories where their lungs are exposed to high levels of CO2 and other harmful gasses, and people who damage their liver by having a couple of drinks every day or occasional binge drinking.
The problem is that we ALL engage in unhealthy behaviors. Admittedly some MAY be worse than others, but this sounds to me like just another government excuse to raise taxes on people instead of dealing with ANY of the REAL issues.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 09:48 AM Norden Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I'm sorry to hear that & I hope you have a refuah shileima. And no excuse for gallows humer is ever needed for me. I'm just wondering what I wrote that you felt the need to respond to me. I wasn't trying to be preachy, I was trying to be milamed zchus. ”
No you were not. You were peddling po-faced piety when you preached "To look at a dying 70 year old and say 'sorry you made this decision at 12 now die from the repercussions' doesn't resonate we'll".
By the way, bored, the word "we'll" is a colloquial contraction of "we will". Your usage just makes your remarks even more of a target for mockery.
25
Jan 28, 2013 at 10:19 AM Commentator Says:Report as Inappropriate
I wish to give my two cents regarding obesity and smoking. Pertaining to obesity, the vast majority of people are overweight, because they like to overeat, and not exercise. That being said, I have no sympathy for individuals who delight in stuffing their mouths (whether at kiddishes, other simchas, on cruise ships, etc.), with food, and then complain when they gain weight. There are people who are literally starving throughout the world, yet these individuals can't control their addiction to food! Regarding smokers, their "rights" effectively terminate, when the annoying smell from their cigarettes, emanates in other people's direction. I would require all prisoners in federal, state, county, and municipal jails to quit smoking cold turkey, and stop furnishing them with cigarettes. Incidentally, the airlines companies did not ban smoking on their own volition. We should thank Sen. Lautenberg for sponsoring a bill, which effectively ended smoking on U.S. airliners.
26
Jan 28, 2013 at 10:56 AM esther Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ While you're right about fried food, everyone should stay away from it, you are extremely off target when you speak if healthy food being cost effective. When I lived in America, I remember spending 1.99 on ONE pepper, one, now how is that going to feed a starving family of let's randomy choose 5 people. A box of noodles costed 99 cents & it can feed 5 easily. Less buck for your bang, and that's just for yiden. Take goyim & thinks become even more of a divide. Fried chicken in a barrel from KFC shouldn't be more than $10 & can feed I think 20. How many people can you feed with $10 worth of salad, especially if one pepper costs $1.99? ”
i personally rarely buy peppers for that very reason but there are always fruits and vegetables on sale,even the lowly potato is very healthy if eaten in moderation and not with loads of fat. pasta,even white,isn't that calorie dense;again it's the added fat to watch out for. as for kfc etc,traif chicken in the supermarket is cheap and more economical then fast food. if people WANT to eat healthy,they can but a lot of the problem is cultural.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 12:50 PM ShmuelG Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "Smoking ... affects others tremendously.†Now that's a crock. Second hand smoking was invented by the Nazi's in the early 30's. They called it "Passivrauchen". Since then no reliable research has shown this to be true. So in 1992 the EPA just declared it to be true. End of story. It does not matter how many statistical studies have shown that there is no reliable evidence. "Second hand smoke" is just a tool to get people to stop smoking. Now I'll get back to my Cuban cigar (Romeo & Juliet No.2).
As far as obesity: Genes, shmeens. If you eat like a pig you get fat like a pig. In my shul when there is a kiddush I see the FAT people stuff it in, cholent, kugel, etc. non-stop. You fress, you're fat. ”
If you want to know when life is good, try Partagas Lusitania. I had just such an occurrence last night, with a good book, nothing can compare.
28
Jan 28, 2013 at 12:32 PM &Mrs; AmHaAretz Says:Report as Inappropriate
? What are the annual health care costs of caring for those with STD ?
Should those who choose to engage in promiscuous behavior be penalized like smokers & the obese?
29
Jan 28, 2013 at 12:02 PM Raphael_Kaufman Says:Report as Inappropriate
The idea that certain personal behaviors need to be controlled because of costs to society is very troubling. We need to remember that people aren't "production modules" that require "optimization". Look. Many of us, most of us, probably pay school tax even though we don't use the public schools. The same goes for non-Jews who either don't have kids or no longer have school age children. The reason given that folks who don't use the system still should pay for it is that an educated populace is a societal good from which everyone benefits. Freedom, even freedom to be stupid, is also a societal good from which everyone benefits.. If freedom costs more than serfdom, it's worth it.
30
Jan 28, 2013 at 12:07 PM Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Smoking and most obesity is self inflicted. It is not like old age.why should everyone else pay for their poor lifestyle choices ”
Most of disease is. As a medical professional, I believe Gov. should try to limit exposure to unhealthy habits. Taxes on fattining food and cigs for example. But to make people pay more for their diseases is liberalism/socialism at its very worse. Let these libs start doing things to prevent AIDS and charging them more money for their Medical Care! Everytime these people get up and shout Cigs/obesity like this guy John Cawley - they never ever mention things like AIDS. So when they start rationing Medical Dollars how about starting with AIDS patients first? This the libs would never do because they would all of a sudden find themselves out of public office! This country is beginning to sound more and more like a facist state with their Obamacare!
31
Jan 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "Smoking ... affects others tremendously.†Now that's a crock. Second hand smoking was invented by the Nazi's in the early 30's. They called it "Passivrauchen". Since then no reliable research has shown this to be true. So in 1992 the EPA just declared it to be true. End of story. It does not matter how many statistical studies have shown that there is no reliable evidence. "Second hand smoke" is just a tool to get people to stop smoking. Now I'll get back to my Cuban cigar (Romeo & Juliet No.2).
As far as obesity: Genes, shmeens. If you eat like a pig you get fat like a pig. In my shul when there is a kiddush I see the FAT people stuff it in, cholent, kugel, etc. non-stop. You fress, you're fat. ”
You lie because you are in Denial. Go to the CDC website and look at their page on second-hand smoking. Here's a quote:
"In adults who have never smoked, secondhand smoke can cause heart disease and/or lung cancer.3"
Notice the #3 at the end. The whole page has a total of 10 references. Everything they post on that page is referenced. So stop with your lie of - it's something the Gov. made up!
And btw smoking is Assur, not just because it's dangerous, - it also damages others!
But go back to sleep - I don't want to disturb your dreams!
32
Jan 28, 2013 at 11:55 AM Materetsky Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ what a funny comment when I drive through willie and boro park all I see is skinny healthy people who are not on any government programs
or is your problem that you are paying for fat goyim but fat yiden should be paid for? ”
Aren't you in a cheery mood today :)
I have a problem with any able bodied person being on government programs long term, Jewish or not, and I believe its probably against halacha; however, since I pay about 35% of my income to the government, I would rather my medicaid food stamps etc. go to Jews than non-Jews, etc., as in line with the halachas of tzedaka. It's not the same as tzedeka, I know, but its the logic I use to keep my ahavas Yisrael in tact.
I've been literally homeless due to a natural disaster, and my parents wouldn't let us take a penny more than we absolutely needed. My friends got free bicycles, Wal-mart gift cards, washing machines, etc., and my mother wouldn't let me take any of it unless I couldn't function without. So I got a few free shirts from Ralph Lauren, some food, and I beleive $500 to replenish everything else I lost (which was everything). I never heard of people mooching like I see in NYC.
This being said, the obesity problem is more severe amongst Hispanics and blacks than amongs Jews.
33
Jan 28, 2013 at 11:55 AM anon Says:Report as Inappropriate
You can't charge someone more for using a credit card to pay for a purchase. But you can offer a discount for paying cash. It's essentially the same as charging more for a using a cc. The same is true for penalizing vs. Discount. But less of a fight to get it passed.
why not raise everyones cost and apply discounts for good behavior just like auto insurance
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Jan 28, 2013 at 01:22 PM Raphael_Kaufman Says:Report as Inappropriate
One of the reasons that obesity seems to be more of a problem among poor populations than among rich ones is that carbs are cheap compared to protein. Carbs are also lower in food value than protein so it takes more to fill you up. I am not referring to "junk food". Go to any third world country and, unless we are talking about the truly hungry, you will see many more fat poor folks than rich ones. If you're living on tortillas, rice and beans you're more likely to be chubby than if you're living on seviche, carne and palm hearts
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Jan 28, 2013 at 02:53 PM Keep it simple Says:Report as Inappropriate
Most obesity is self inflicted, and virtually all smoking related disease (primary smoke) is self inflicted. These diseases should be excluded from any and all health insurance coverage, public and private. If someone not in my proximity chooses to smoke, it must be 100% at his own expense. My tax dollars, nor insurance premiums should not be used to subsidize the smoking or the diseases that come from it. We have been exposed to tons of information on this, and the city of NY has sponsored free smoking cessation treatments and materials. No excuses left. Don't tax anyone, just eliminate health insurance coverage. Same goes for overeating. Not a dollar for bariatric surgery or anything else. There are thousands of programs to treat obesity and prevent it. No excuses left.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 04:00 PM Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Most obesity is self inflicted, and virtually all smoking related disease (primary smoke) is self inflicted. These diseases should be excluded from any and all health insurance coverage, public and private. If someone not in my proximity chooses to smoke, it must be 100% at his own expense. My tax dollars, nor insurance premiums should not be used to subsidize the smoking or the diseases that come from it. We have been exposed to tons of information on this, and the city of NY has sponsored free smoking cessation treatments and materials. No excuses left. Don't tax anyone, just eliminate health insurance coverage. Same goes for overeating. Not a dollar for bariatric surgery or anything else. There are thousands of programs to treat obesity and prevent it. No excuses left. ”
The same goes for AIDS and many other diseases. All or nothing. Eliminating paying for these diseases would eliminate Medical care in this country. Because noone is going to be paying big salaries to practice medicine on the few that can afford it. People are so blinded by the Liberal nonsense that they don't see the slippery slope that they are on. So the hospital will become a sixty bed one instead of a 600 bed one. 1,000 Docs will become 100. And when you come knocking on the door because you want medical care, even with your insurance coverage, -Oh sorry -we are full!
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Jan 28, 2013 at 05:05 PM Kzler Says:Report as Inappropriate
In my professional work I came across medical reports where cardiac surgeons refused coronary graft surgery because the patient refused to stop smoking
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Jan 28, 2013 at 05:19 PM Kzler Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ The same goes for AIDS and many other diseases. All or nothing. Eliminating paying for these diseases would eliminate Medical care in this country. Because noone is going to be paying big salaries to practice medicine on the few that can afford it. People are so blinded by the Liberal nonsense that they don't see the slippery slope that they are on. So the hospital will become a sixty bed one instead of a 600 bed one. 1,000 Docs will become 100. And when you come knocking on the door because you want medical care, even with your insurance coverage, -Oh sorry -we are full! ”
You are idea was implemented by the Nazis when I was in a concentration camp and the visiting SS doctor said " die wurden vernichtet" those were exterminated. Anyone with compassion would be revolted by your idea. At a famous hospital a surgeon contacted AIDS and died . He was one of the finest surgeon and Jewish
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Jan 28, 2013 at 05:50 PM Shimon Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Smoking and most obesity is self inflicted. It is not like old age.why should everyone else pay for their poor lifestyle choices ”
not necessarily true at all!
I'm talking about obesity.
Not everyone has the money or freedom to watch his diet or stress level. Neither is everyone blessed with good health or even the ability to exercise at all.
It just takes too many blessings to be so lucky.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 05:53 PM Kzler Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Most of disease is. As a medical professional, I believe Gov. should try to limit exposure to unhealthy habits. Taxes on fattining food and cigs for example. But to make people pay more for their diseases is liberalism/socialism at its very worse. Let these libs start doing things to prevent AIDS and charging them more money for their Medical Care! Everytime these people get up and shout Cigs/obesity like this guy John Cawley - they never ever mention things like AIDS. So when they start rationing Medical Dollars how about starting with AIDS patients first? This the libs would never do because they would all of a sudden find themselves out of public office! This country is beginning to sound more and more like a facist state with their Obamacare! ”
The "fascist" Obamacare was approved by the Supreme Court but some of the militias and tea baggies are crypto fascists. I wonder if someone in your family G'd forbid would be stricken with an astrocytoma or sarcoma if your would have such big mouth
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Jan 28, 2013 at 06:01 PM md2205 Says:Report as Inappropriate
The problem with making people pay more for their insurance for their vices is that sooner or later, and probably sooner, someone in power is going to say those people who choose to have large families - why should we pay for their ob/gyn care, why should we pay for their large family care, and might ask those families to pay higher fees for their insurance too. You can't start singling out one behavior or you will end up singling out many behaviors, and attacks on large families is only one of many social situations that may come up.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 06:03 PM Kzler Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Most of disease is. As a medical professional, I believe Gov. should try to limit exposure to unhealthy habits. Taxes on fattining food and cigs for example. But to make people pay more for their diseases is liberalism/socialism at its very worse. Let these libs start doing things to prevent AIDS and charging them more money for their Medical Care! Everytime these people get up and shout Cigs/obesity like this guy John Cawley - they never ever mention things like AIDS. So when they start rationing Medical Dollars how about starting with AIDS patients first? This the libs would never do because they would all of a sudden find themselves out of public office! This country is beginning to sound more and more like a facist state with their Obamacare! ”
As a medical professional do you practice palliative or battle field medicine
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Jan 28, 2013 at 07:47 PM Truth Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are idea was implemented by the Nazis when I was in a concentration camp and the visiting SS doctor said " die wurden vernichtet" those were exterminated. Anyone with compassion would be revolted by your idea. At a famous hospital a surgeon contacted AIDS and died . He was one of the finest surgeon and Jewish ”
Are you senile? Are you posting from the nursing home? My post was sarcastic. Sorry, I don't know how to say sarcastic in German. This whole article was about how Obamacare is going to ration medicine. Yes, even leftist, pinko, commies can turn into facists. I'd be really worried if I were you - you might not get the medical/mental health care you so sorely need.
All these things are the same - smoking, obesity, AIDS, etc. If you want to cut smoking and obesity - then do it all these types of diseases.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 08:43 PM Kzler Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Are you senile? Are you posting from the nursing home? My post was sarcastic. Sorry, I don't know how to say sarcastic in German. This whole article was about how Obamacare is going to ration medicine. Yes, even leftist, pinko, commies can turn into facists. I'd be really worried if I were you - you might not get the medical/mental health care you so sorely need.
All these things are the same - smoking, obesity, AIDS, etc. If you want to cut smoking and obesity - then do it all these types of diseases. ”
Truth your posting is incoherent rambling.
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Jan 28, 2013 at 10:07 PM mugsisme Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Yes why not price health insurance like life based on your health. (and by the way I would pay more bec I am overwieght but I would lose wieght very quickly when it hits my pocket). To those concerned about low income families;
1) They can all afford I-phones they can afford better healthier foods.
2) restructre food stamps to be like wic only healthy foods can be purchased with it. ”
I've tried to get food stamps restructured like WIC. No one is interested in doing it. I've talked with my congressman, senators, the committees that run it. Go try. I've been screaming about this for years. In my state, you can get cigarettes with food stamps. Have you ever seen the carts of people on food stamps? Full of pure garbage!
My husband said our food bill tripled since I buy non-gmo, organic, healthy food. I've also stopped buying processed food. Most people don't have the time to make every thing from scratch. To me, it's worth every penny and every minute. This is what my family is putting into their body. BTW, most kosher companies use the worst ingredients. Hydrogenated oils, HFCS, food dyes. There are very few that don't. Look at the frum foods, most of it is no better than what the people are buying on food stamps!
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Jan 29, 2013 at 01:15 AM Greener Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ If you want to know when life is good, try Partagas Lusitania. I had just such an occurrence last night, with a good book, nothing can compare. ”
I avoid Partagas; they are inconsistent. I stick to Montecristo, Upmann or Romeo&Juliet;.
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Jan 29, 2013 at 01:51 AM Greener Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You lie because you are in Denial. Go to the CDC website and look at their page on second-hand smoking. Here's a quote:
"In adults who have never smoked, secondhand smoke can cause heart disease and/or lung cancer.3"
Notice the #3 at the end. The whole page has a total of 10 references. Everything they post on that page is referenced. So stop with your lie of - it's something the Gov. made up!
And btw smoking is Assur, not just because it's dangerous, - it also damages others!
But go back to sleep - I don't want to disturb your dreams! ”
So you believe the CDC propaganda! Wow! Petti ma'min b'kol davar. If you do statistical "research" proving that second hand smoke causes any disease you get grant money. Otherwise, naada. My favorite is "Environmental Tobacco Smoke and Risk of Malignant Lymphoma in Pet Cats", by E.R. Bertone, et al. in the American Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 156, No.3, 2002. Sometimes things go wrong. Example: The World Health Organization sponsored a massive study in Europe by a consortium of university researchers in 12 counties on the relationship between environment tobacco smoke and lung cancer. The results: no relationship. So what did the WHO do? ordered that the results not be published. But someone leaked the results to the Sunday Telegraph in England, and in the resulting hullabaloo the WHO had to let out the results. Interesting reading: Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Vol. 90, No.19, pp.1440-1450, 1998. This will not appear on the CDC website.
Smoking is assur? Yah, yah, nowadays. But once all the rebbes in Europe smoked their pipes and had their pictures taken doing so. If it was dangerous where was their "ruach haKodesh"?
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Jan 29, 2013 at 03:54 AM naisgal Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ How can smoking and obesity be equated? Obesity may be due to genes and health factors and doesn't physically affect others. Smoking is totally controllable and affects others tremendously. ”
Actually that is not true either as some people genetically have need for alcohol or tobbacco more than others do. This really shows that we need to take the profit factor out of health services, and we need universal health care for all. What about stress put on us that causes severe health issues? I find feeding the meters for every 15 minutes, and getting tickets for alternate side parking stressful. Finding parking is a huge stress as is traffic congestion. There are so many factors that cause health problems that blaming the smokers or obese people is ridiculous. Children with disabilities are usually in need of a lot of additional health services so do we charge their parents much more for having them? A society cannot focus on costs where health is concerned. We must improve the quality of our lives and thereby our lifestyle. I am so tired of our singling out one group and pointing at them. We do live much longer lives so there is a bracha. Let us celebrate that and never ever think about the costs of receiving health care for elderly and respect them instead.
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Jan 29, 2013 at 07:45 AM shredready Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Aren't you in a cheery mood today :)
I have a problem with any able bodied person being on government programs long term, Jewish or not, and I believe its probably against halacha; however, since I pay about 35% of my income to the government, I would rather my medicaid food stamps etc. go to Jews than non-Jews, etc., as in line with the halachas of tzedaka. It's not the same as tzedeka, I know, but its the logic I use to keep my ahavas Yisrael in tact.
I've been literally homeless due to a natural disaster, and my parents wouldn't let us take a penny more than we absolutely needed. My friends got free bicycles, Wal-mart gift cards, washing machines, etc., and my mother wouldn't let me take any of it unless I couldn't function without. So I got a few free shirts from Ralph Lauren, some food, and I beleive $500 to replenish everything else I lost (which was everything). I never heard of people mooching like I see in NYC.
This being said, the obesity problem is more severe amongst Hispanics and blacks than amongs Jews. ”
i will let the government know that and that only Jewish taxes goes to Jews and non Jews only the non Jews. How far should we go whites only for whites
free washing machines how I was flooded to at did not get much?
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Jan 29, 2013 at 08:19 AM Materetsky Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ i will let the government know that and that only Jewish taxes goes to Jews and non Jews only the non Jews. How far should we go whites only for whites
free washing machines how I was flooded to at did not get much? ”
You were probably flooded in Sandy, so it wasn't quite the same as the disaster I was affected by (my home town had over 30 feet of water).
Ok, thanks for delivering my message.