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Bnei Brak - Charedim: Agudat Yisrael, Degel Hatorah Set To Meet

Published on: February 6, 2013 11:31 PM
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Bnei Brak - A historic meeting of both Councils of Torah Sages of the two mainstream haredi movements, Degel Hatorah and Agudat Yisrael, will take place Thursday in Bnei Brak.

The two councils, which split in 1988, are nominally the spiritual executive branches of these movements, and are theoretically supposed to confer on major issues confronting the haredi community.

The joint meeting has been called as a matter of emergency, in light of the threat to the blanket exemption from military service enjoyed by full-time yeshiva students.

Both councils will, without a doubt, express an uncompromising position on the matter, and will refuse to agree to any proposal that enforces enlistment of those studying in yeshiva.

The council of Agudat Yisrael, the movement representing hassidic Jewry in Israel, has not convened for the past 16 years, because of a lack of consensus on certain issues among the many hassidic groups as well as the absence of any especially pressing concern.

Since the last time Agudat Yisrael’s council was convened, almost all of the members – mostly the grand rabbis of the different hassidic dynasties – have died, apart from the rebbes of the Gur and Erlau Hassidim.

Degel Hatorah, the movement representing non-hassidic haredim in Israel, has also not met regularly, and added new members for the first time in many years last August to replace several members who had passed away in recent months.

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Agudat Yisrael’s council will formally add at least nine new members on Thursday, and will be comprised in total of 15 members, including the grand rabbis of the hassidic dynasties of Gur, Belz, Vizhnitz, Erlau, Sanz, Boyan, Slonim, Seret-Vizhnitz, Sadigura, Alexander and Modzitz.

Agudat Yisrael’s council will convene at approximately 5 p.m. in Bnei Brak, and will then be joined an hour later by the council of Degel Hatorah, which includes the acknowledged leader of the non-hassidic Ashkenazi haredi world, Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman.

A joint meeting of both councils has rarely occurred since Degel Hatorah split off from Agudat Yisrael, indicating the concern which has gripped the leadership of the haredi world regarding proposals to draft yeshiva students into national service.

The previous arrangement covered by the terms of the “Tal Law” allowed full-time yeshiva students to indefinitely defer their military service, but the law was struck down by the High Court of Justice last February and finally expired in August.

The haredi spiritual and political leadership is vehemently opposed to any solution which forces yeshiva students to leave the study hall and enlist.

Although some of the leading rabbis accept that permanent, full-time yeshiva study is not suitable for everyone, and that those who do not wish to do so may perform some form of national service and enter the workforce, they will not agree to a blanket draft of yeshiva students.

Haredi politicians frequently say that anyone who is not fulfilling his legally mandated study hours should enlist. Out of the approximately 45,000 full-time haredi yeshiva students, it is believed that many thousands do not comply with the requirements for study, although hard data is not available.

Proposals to replace the Tal Law are currently front and center in the coalition negotiations being conducted between all the major Knesset factions. The haredi parties are extremely concerned that a government will be formed with a majority that will allow for radical change in the current status of yeshiva students.

On Wednesday morning, Yesh Atid leader Yair Lapid declared that he in no way sought to damage the Torah world.

“My entire life I have been reading and studying the Bible, in my eyes Torah study is part and parcel of Israel’s existence,” he said, adding that there are two Orthodox rabbis who are now Yesh Atid MKs.

“But Torah study cannot become the excuse for eightyear- old boys not to study math and English, and for 18- year-olds not to serve their homeland, and for 28-yearolds not to work to sustain their families.

“Everyone has the right to learn Torah, but Torah learning cannot become the excuse for a person not fulfilling the most basic obligations to his country, his family and to the society in which he lives,”

Content is provided courtesy of the Jerusalem Post


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Read Comments (28)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Feb 07, 2013 at 01:07 AM Anonymous Says:

I think Ger has had a few Rebbes since 1988, but I think Belz, Boyan, and Seret-Viznitz remain the same since then

2

 Feb 07, 2013 at 01:45 AM LionofZion Says:

It sounds like Yair Lapid has a better grasp of Torah than the Roshei Yeshiva and Rebbes who only want to control their flock and increase their political power. This new form of Chareidi Jewry is new to Judaism. Of course we learn about math and science and are part of the world. Of course we need to take part in putting our bodies and lives on the line to defend our fellow Jews. Of course we work and support our families rather than beg and steal. All of the Tanaim and Amoraim had jobs, that did not keep them from amassing great Torah knowledge. This new religion is foreign to Torah.

3

 Feb 07, 2013 at 02:15 AM NeveAliza Says:

Yair Lapid is correct. And if two groups of "Gedolim" couldn't bring themselves to talk to each other since 1988 because of differences of opinion, then perhaps we can all thank Yair for that too.

4

 Feb 07, 2013 at 05:49 AM some1 Says:

My entire life i have been reading and studying the bible.
Oh, in which kollel are you learning?? Maybe we could learn together?? It looks from his talks that he is a real talmud chochum.

5

 Feb 07, 2013 at 01:16 AM Anonymous Says:

to Lapid, is a kollel yungerman any different than a monk in another religion (such as Catholicism or Buddhism) except for marriage? Full-time Torah study is not for everyone, but how is sitting in a beis medrash and getting paid any less valuable than sitting in the Keneset and getting paid, or playing sports and getting paid? I agree the government shouldnt pay for it, but if private sponsors wish to, why not? The main mistake the mainline Haredim made was to say that they defend the state with their Torah. They should rather identify themselves as conscientious objectors, as the anti-zionist Haredim are. How do you convince a secularist that you are defending the Medinah by learning a Rashba? Just be honest

6

 Feb 07, 2013 at 08:45 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

to Lapid, is a kollel yungerman any different than a monk in another religion (such as Catholicism or Buddhism) except for marriage? Full-time Torah study is not for everyone, but how is sitting in a beis medrash and getting paid any less valuable than sitting in the Keneset and getting paid, or playing sports and getting paid? I agree the government shouldnt pay for it, but if private sponsors wish to, why not? The main mistake the mainline Haredim made was to say that they defend the state with their Torah. They should rather identify themselves as conscientious objectors, as the anti-zionist Haredim are. How do you convince a secularist that you are defending the Medinah by learning a Rashba? Just be honest

I don't know anything about the rules for Buddhist monks, but the Benedictine rule which is the original basis for monastic life in Catholicism requires that each monk divide his day between work and prayer. Catholic monks do not sit all day and "learn." Only those monks who have the head for it 'learn,' and they too are required to work, which may include writing treatises derived from their learning. Historically and today Catholic monks do manual labor, including, at various times, jobs ranging from writing and illuminating manuscripts to healing the sick to constructing coffins for sale to making candy. Further Catholic monasteries have never been supported by tax-derived public revenues. Instead they live on the proceeds of their work plus donations (which in the Middle Ages often included gifts of large tracts of arable land which they, with the labor of lay brothers, farmed). The prayer part of the monastic day consisted of seven services distributed throughout the day and night plus whatever private devotions the individual cared to engage in. So, nothing at all like kollel life....

7

 Feb 07, 2013 at 08:58 AM shredready Says:

meetings isn't that bittuel Torah, and why not just sit and learn Torah to protect them from the army. Torah should be able to do that since it protects the whole medina from missles

8

 Feb 07, 2013 at 09:06 AM Kzler Says:

Reply to #2  
LionofZion Says:

It sounds like Yair Lapid has a better grasp of Torah than the Roshei Yeshiva and Rebbes who only want to control their flock and increase their political power. This new form of Chareidi Jewry is new to Judaism. Of course we learn about math and science and are part of the world. Of course we need to take part in putting our bodies and lives on the line to defend our fellow Jews. Of course we work and support our families rather than beg and steal. All of the Tanaim and Amoraim had jobs, that did not keep them from amassing great Torah knowledge. This new religion is foreign to Torah.

As a survivor odf 4 years of concentration camp, multilingual this is the most succint, clearly stated statement I have read and I fully agree with you. Reb Yochanan h'sandler never heard of him, b'kashti v'charbi, never heard of that, Rambam knowing Greek, Arabic cxhas v'sholom, treife, Rashi the vintner treife v'chazer, serve in an Army too cowardly, but we need guns and the President is a sone yisroel. Go to BP in a store and pay by check only cash which goes in the pocket.Yehudah malchus sh'mayim. Kol tuv and don't change your hashkofo you are a rarity

9

 Feb 07, 2013 at 09:14 AM Kzler Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I don't know anything about the rules for Buddhist monks, but the Benedictine rule which is the original basis for monastic life in Catholicism requires that each monk divide his day between work and prayer. Catholic monks do not sit all day and "learn." Only those monks who have the head for it 'learn,' and they too are required to work, which may include writing treatises derived from their learning. Historically and today Catholic monks do manual labor, including, at various times, jobs ranging from writing and illuminating manuscripts to healing the sick to constructing coffins for sale to making candy. Further Catholic monasteries have never been supported by tax-derived public revenues. Instead they live on the proceeds of their work plus donations (which in the Middle Ages often included gifts of large tracts of arable land which they, with the labor of lay brothers, farmed). The prayer part of the monastic day consisted of seven services distributed throughout the day and night plus whatever private devotions the individual cared to engage in. So, nothing at all like kollel life....

Orat et laborat but the Benedictine were the most virulent antisemitic even though they wore white tunics. However your statement is correct. Once upon time there is a statement in Pirke Avos about a shoemaker

10

 Feb 07, 2013 at 09:19 AM Kzler Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I don't know anything about the rules for Buddhist monks, but the Benedictine rule which is the original basis for monastic life in Catholicism requires that each monk divide his day between work and prayer. Catholic monks do not sit all day and "learn." Only those monks who have the head for it 'learn,' and they too are required to work, which may include writing treatises derived from their learning. Historically and today Catholic monks do manual labor, including, at various times, jobs ranging from writing and illuminating manuscripts to healing the sick to constructing coffins for sale to making candy. Further Catholic monasteries have never been supported by tax-derived public revenues. Instead they live on the proceeds of their work plus donations (which in the Middle Ages often included gifts of large tracts of arable land which they, with the labor of lay brothers, farmed). The prayer part of the monastic day consisted of seven services distributed throughout the day and night plus whatever private devotions the individual cared to engage in. So, nothing at all like kollel life....

Kolel is a parasitic life feeding one someone else work

11

 Feb 07, 2013 at 09:33 AM DRE53 Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

I think Ger has had a few Rebbes since 1988, but I think Belz, Boyan, and Seret-Viznitz remain the same since then

Read the article.
It says that they haven't met the last 16 years and most rebbes have passed away since then.
If I'm not mistaking, belz boyan and seret weren't part of moetzes.

12

 Feb 07, 2013 at 09:35 AM PrettyBoyFloyd Says:

Lapid is right. The Rosh yeshivas are wrong.

13

 Feb 07, 2013 at 09:37 AM NeveAliza Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

to Lapid, is a kollel yungerman any different than a monk in another religion (such as Catholicism or Buddhism) except for marriage? Full-time Torah study is not for everyone, but how is sitting in a beis medrash and getting paid any less valuable than sitting in the Keneset and getting paid, or playing sports and getting paid? I agree the government shouldnt pay for it, but if private sponsors wish to, why not? The main mistake the mainline Haredim made was to say that they defend the state with their Torah. They should rather identify themselves as conscientious objectors, as the anti-zionist Haredim are. How do you convince a secularist that you are defending the Medinah by learning a Rashba? Just be honest

If by "anti-zionist Haredim" you mean the NK, their exemption from military service is not because they're conscientious objectors, but rather because they are mentally incompetent. Sort of like Section 8 in the US military.

15

 Feb 07, 2013 at 10:24 AM esther Says:

Reply to #4  
some1 Says:

My entire life i have been reading and studying the bible.
Oh, in which kollel are you learning?? Maybe we could learn together?? It looks from his talks that he is a real talmud chochum.

well see,he's of the opinion that one can study torah AND support his own family instead of collecting tzedaka.hmm,,a chidush!

16

 Feb 07, 2013 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Kzler Says:

Kolel is a parasitic life feeding one someone else work

So then playing baseball is also parasitic - yet people pay millions of dollars to watch grown men run around with bats and balls - if donors value torah, what is wrong to have a job studying torah? Again I agree that the government should not subsidise the learning, but only because I do not believe they deserve the zechus to support torah. If all of the torah institutions refused to take money from the reshaim, they would have no zechus and would lose their kiyum. The gemara says moshiach cannot come until there is no jewish government, so allowing the zionists to have a zechus to support torah and giving them a kiyum is preventing moshiach from coming RL. All of the haredim should come to a free country like the US and then moshiach will come because the evil medinah of the zionists will be gone without the zechus of supporting the haredim

17

 Feb 07, 2013 at 10:31 AM esther Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

to Lapid, is a kollel yungerman any different than a monk in another religion (such as Catholicism or Buddhism) except for marriage? Full-time Torah study is not for everyone, but how is sitting in a beis medrash and getting paid any less valuable than sitting in the Keneset and getting paid, or playing sports and getting paid? I agree the government shouldnt pay for it, but if private sponsors wish to, why not? The main mistake the mainline Haredim made was to say that they defend the state with their Torah. They should rather identify themselves as conscientious objectors, as the anti-zionist Haredim are. How do you convince a secularist that you are defending the Medinah by learning a Rashba? Just be honest

there aren't thousands and thousands of keneset and sports players for one. one needs to be elected or chosen for a team to fit into either of these 2 categories and to remain one needs to have a certain aptitude for the job. l

18

 Feb 07, 2013 at 10:33 AM esther Says:

listen,don't insult a survivor! besides the fact that it shows a total lack of derech eretz and rachmanus,i'm sure Hashem watches out for them in a special way.

19

 Feb 07, 2013 at 11:21 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Kzler Says:

Kolel is a parasitic life feeding one someone else work

That depends.
Some in kollel have a side business.
Some may have a yerusha. I mean if you inherit money and you do not have to live off others why not learn? After all torah is what we take with us to the next world not work.
Some may have wealthy parents where its not a struggle to support children. Why not give them the money during there life time? What good is it to sit in the bank for 30 years and then go to their kids anyhow?
Some may have wives who have good job without comprimising raising kids.Yes perhaps women should stay home but facts are most women can't just sit home all day.
Some may actually put a strain on their wife and parents/ inlaws. For those you are somewhat correct.
But for the others why not learn in kollel?
Of course this doesn't apply if you are fooling around.

20

 Feb 07, 2013 at 12:09 PM Kzler Says:

Jewish Mullato I tell you why I came to this country passed the high equivalent test, went to college married, worked in a professional job for 40 yrs and raised wonderful children and have a lovely wife and . Yes the horrible experience gave me more insight and I don't make superficial , uninformed statements like you. Alright Jewish Mullato. Why do you identify yourself with that acronym, racist, race conscious or else???. I saw the humans mentally naked and have more insight in human nature you ever will have.

21

 Feb 07, 2013 at 12:10 PM ANonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

So then playing baseball is also parasitic - yet people pay millions of dollars to watch grown men run around with bats and balls - if donors value torah, what is wrong to have a job studying torah? Again I agree that the government should not subsidise the learning, but only because I do not believe they deserve the zechus to support torah. If all of the torah institutions refused to take money from the reshaim, they would have no zechus and would lose their kiyum. The gemara says moshiach cannot come until there is no jewish government, so allowing the zionists to have a zechus to support torah and giving them a kiyum is preventing moshiach from coming RL. All of the haredim should come to a free country like the US and then moshiach will come because the evil medinah of the zionists will be gone without the zechus of supporting the haredim

Nothing wrong if you pay for your support and not someone else

22

 Feb 07, 2013 at 12:47 PM Kzler Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

That depends.
Some in kollel have a side business.
Some may have a yerusha. I mean if you inherit money and you do not have to live off others why not learn? After all torah is what we take with us to the next world not work.
Some may have wealthy parents where its not a struggle to support children. Why not give them the money during there life time? What good is it to sit in the bank for 30 years and then go to their kids anyhow?
Some may have wives who have good job without comprimising raising kids.Yes perhaps women should stay home but facts are most women can't just sit home all day.
Some may actually put a strain on their wife and parents/ inlaws. For those you are somewhat correct.
But for the others why not learn in kollel?
Of course this doesn't apply if you are fooling around.

I agree with you it depends on the socio-economic circumstances and if you are financially indepedent then you are corret

23

 Feb 07, 2013 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Kzler Says:

Orat et laborat but the Benedictine were the most virulent antisemitic even though they wore white tunics. However your statement is correct. Once upon time there is a statement in Pirke Avos about a shoemaker

Actually the most virulent anti-Semitism came from the friars, not the monks (not of course that the monks were philo-Judaic). The Franciscans in particular and the Dominicans were the ones who really stirred the pot when it came to anti-Semitism. Benedictines wear black (not white) and have since c. 800 CE. Cistercians (also known today as Trappists), an offshoot of the Benedctines dating from the turn of the twelfth century, do wear a white tunic topped with a black scapular.

24

 Feb 07, 2013 at 01:38 PM Kzler Says:

You need a primAry course in spelling

25

 Feb 07, 2013 at 02:05 PM Satumare Says:

No. 14. Are you saying the people who survived the concentration camps are less sane than those who did not experience the camps? If that's your position, where did you get this hogwash?

26

 Feb 07, 2013 at 02:26 PM Jewish mullato Says:

Reply to #20  
Kzler Says:

Jewish Mullato I tell you why I came to this country passed the high equivalent test, went to college married, worked in a professional job for 40 yrs and raised wonderful children and have a lovely wife and . Yes the horrible experience gave me more insight and I don't make superficial , uninformed statements like you. Alright Jewish Mullato. Why do you identify yourself with that acronym, racist, race conscious or else???. I saw the humans mentally naked and have more insight in human nature you ever will have.

Simply because I am a mix of white native and jewish

27

 Feb 07, 2013 at 03:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
Jewish mullato Says:

Simply because I am a mix of white native and jewish

Mullato you suffer from an identity crisis

28

 Feb 07, 2013 at 05:27 PM CSLMoish Says:

Torah protects ? Ok so offer a percentage of all citizens to go to Yeshiva and get a defferment.
So 10 percent of each community including secular get a defferment in order that they go study. Everyone else goes to the army. What will the geonim do? They will learn even more in the army. Some of the greatest sefarim were written in prison, in hiding, during escape etc. Army should not be an issue for geonim.

29

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