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Jerusalem - Rabbi Says Seculars Are To Blame For Wars

Published on: February 25, 2013 10:40 AM
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The Admor of Premishlan. photo by Yuval Nadel/Courtesy to VINNews.comThe Admor of Premishlan. photo by Yuval Nadel/Courtesy to VINNews.com

Jerusalem - - A well respected rabbi has told secular authorities that it is those who do not study the Torah who are responsible for Israel’s security issues, and that it is they who must serve in the army.

Ynetnews (http://bit.ly/ZuZSan) is reporting that in an effort to clarify his ongoing resistance to a haredi draft, Rabbi Meir Rosenboim of Peremyshlyany said hasidics are actually defending Israel by studying the Torah.

“It’s clear to us that the fact we live in fear of enemies in all our years here in the land of Israel—-that’s because of the simple people, those who don’t study the Torah, this country is filled with,” said Rosenboim. “Those who ask why they must enlist and fight must be told this calamity, these secular dangers, is because of them, because of their helplessness and their abstaining from studying Torah.”

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As Rabbi of Peremyshlyany, Rosenboim is head of a relatively small community, but he is highly respected in the hasidic world due to the blessings and advice he bestows on his visitors.

High ranking seculars, including former Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, have visited the rabbi in the past.

Continuing to defend hared exemption from the draft, the rabbi said, “Our right to be quiet and serene is only because of studying the Torah, without which a calamity will befall the world.”


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1

 Feb 25, 2013 at 10:44 AM Geulah Says:

Get Lapid and Bennett to parade around in their IDF uniforms highlighting their campaign ribbons. My father, AH, used to say that anyone who wants to tell others to fight needs to demonstrate their own war experiences. Lapid hasn't any war experiences. Regarding what defends Eretz Yisroel and it's people, why don't you just say that it's Hashem.

2

 Feb 25, 2013 at 10:50 AM Avi Says:

In a weird way, he's right. If not for the seculars, he and every other Charedi would have been slaughtered, thus ending all the violence (against Jews).

3

 Feb 25, 2013 at 10:57 AM Haredi Lite Says:

The idea of Torah protecting the Jewish people has been taken way too far - way beyond anything that the Torah itself teaches. In fact, the Torah says that when selecting soldiers for the army, איש הירא ורך הלבב (whoever is afraid of the aveiros he has committed) should NOT fight. It is ONLY the tzadikim who were chosen as soldiers.
This explains where there seems to be in inverse relationship between Torah learning and Jewish security. In Europe, there were more great talmidei chachomim (and fewer seculars) than there are today, but that didn't stop the Holocaust. In the wars of 1948 and 1967, when there were relatively few men learning in kollel, the Israeli army defeated its enemise decisively, often with the help of miracles. But in recent decades, when the number of kollel members has ballooned, the Israel has struggled on the battlefield.

4

 Feb 25, 2013 at 11:23 AM berelw Says:

this totally makes sense right????this totally makes frum and charaid jews look like primitives....while toras chaim is our life...we are in this world and need to love our fellow jews regardless of their current affiliation..frum/charaidi jews need to conduct ourselves in the highest mroal state...we need to learn torah, protray highest of respect/manners and chip in to society while maintaing our values....when we protray ourselves as selfish and arrogant we are merachek anyone who even thinks of leading a torah lifestyle....

5

 Feb 25, 2013 at 11:30 AM proud-mo-israeli Says:

I'd love to hear how this joker explains the Holocaust when the vast majority of Jews DID study Torah.

6

 Feb 25, 2013 at 11:34 AM רך לב Says:

The good rabbi forgot what he learned:

מי האיש הירא ורך הלבב ילך וישוב לביתו ולא ימס לבב אחיו כלבבו (דברים כ, ח), ובגמ׳ (סוטה מג, א) דלר׳ יוסי הגלילי רך הלבב היינו שמתיירא מעבירות שבידו. ומי שיהיו עבירות בידו יתיירא וילך וישוב לביתו, ונמצא כי רק יראי ה׳ הנקיים מעבירות ילכו למלחמה. אולם כ"ז במלחמה ע"פ תורה לא כן הוא עכשיו ובפרט שנהפוך הוא רבוא מהצבא אינם אפילו שותומ"צ

7

 Feb 25, 2013 at 11:47 AM rebbeofalltherebbes Says:

How to Win Friends and Influence People

8

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:08 PM NotSoFrum Says:

I always found it interesting to see how Hashem consistently had us take up arms to defend or conquer. Miracles helped us win, but we had to fight and earn the win ourselves. I'm thinking of entering EY after Sinai, Chanukah, Purim, and modern day EY battles. Study alone was clearly not enough.

9

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:11 PM Anonymous Says:

You can lump this rabbi in with the likes of Mel Gibson. I really am sure that G-d is not a G-d of antipathy for the lack of Torah study overall when the fact is that if you do not study today, perhaps you will study even more tomorrow as you learn your yiddishkeit. But of course, if you want to take credit for the worlds stage, go right ahead. G-d is sitting in heaven dishing out hatred and bad advice for anyone who is not a neshama superiority for the days ahead.

10

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
proud-mo-israeli Says:

I'd love to hear how this joker explains the Holocaust when the vast majority of Jews DID study Torah.

This rav means well and probably believes what he says but is tragically misinformed. Indeed, there are some who argue that it was exactly because so many yidden in the alte heim DID sat passively in the shuls and batei medrahshim of Europe and learned rather than arming themselves and fighting back, that 6 million kadoshim were niftar in the shoah. There is nothing in daas torah that says we should ALL learn 24x7 and "hope" no sakanah befalls us. Having a percentage of the tzibur take a year or two off from the limudei torah while performing public service (either in the IDF or alternative public service) will do a lot more than hiding in a bomb shelter and learning while the rockets rain down. This rav and those who spout such nareshkeit will be responsible.

11

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:17 PM Raphael_Kaufman Says:

Reply to #5  
proud-mo-israeli Says:

I'd love to hear how this joker explains the Holocaust when the vast majority of Jews DID study Torah.

You and #3 too. It is a myth that the "vast majority" of Jews in pre-war Europe were frum and lomdei Torah. While the Chassidim were somewhat successful in maintaining a traditional lifestyle in the face of Haskalah, in Lite The Haskalah took an enormous toll. The yeshivos themselves were particular hot beds of haskalah to the extent that many were closed down. Voloshin was closed in 1905 because of the participation of a large number of bachurim in the failed revolution of that year.

P.S. Another popular myth is that Voloshin closed rather than teach secular subjects. The fact is that Voloshin taught Russian language and mathematics since 1893, albeit in a separate building. It was finally closed for the reason cited above.

We all want to believe that "der Heim" was an idyllic place where everyone was frum and we all learned Torah and we were all someiach b'chelkeinu. The unhappy fact is that European Jewry, post WWI, was a seething mess of political and religious discord and in-fighting. If you want to know what Europe was like, look at the religious and political system that was export to present day Israel.

12

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:20 PM DanielBarbaz Says:

We just read Parshas Zachor. I don't recall the Torah saying that Moshe told the Yidden to take out a Sefer and learn.

13

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:32 PM gersh Says:

Reply to #2  
Avi Says:

In a weird way, he's right. If not for the seculars, he and every other Charedi would have been slaughtered, thus ending all the violence (against Jews).

perfectly said..it is so true...I was always wondering how to express that very thought.

14

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:44 PM Robert Says:

enough of the blame game.

vahavta lrayecha kamocha

all sides need to stand down and respect the other

no blaming, just reasonable solutions based on mutual respect

15

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
DanielBarbaz Says:

We just read Parshas Zachor. I don't recall the Torah saying that Moshe told the Yidden to take out a Sefer and learn.

For those yidden who are frail, sick or otherwise unable to bear arms, than certainly having them engage in limud torah will provide a z'chus for the klal. Otherwise, put down your seforim, pick up your gun and like Carlton Heston so famously said "over my cold body..".

16

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:51 PM c Says:

I think this idea is more prevalent amongst Israeli Rabbanim and the people who are sitting and learning than some of us might think. I personally don't understand this thinking. They should look at their own actions if they wish to assign blame anywhere. 10's of thousands of yidden are brought up without religeon and even with a hate for religeon right in their back yard and they do nothing about it. Even worse they behave in a way that turns people from yiddishkeit R"L.

17

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:53 PM sane Says:

How did Shmuel kill Agag? How did Dovid Hamelech destroy his enemies? How did the Maccabim liberate the Har Habayis? How did the Yehudim destroy their enemies in Persia? Who fought - only secular Jews?

18

 Feb 25, 2013 at 12:55 PM Kzler Says:

Interesting I have a picture of Rav Goren A'H blowing shofar at the Kotel surrounded byIsraeli paratroopers. In 1948 if not for the seculars ,Palmach and Haganah, the Yishuv would have been wiped out . Does he know that. The paratroopers were not yuunge leit. Keep up- telling about Moshiach with such idiotic statements.

19

 Feb 25, 2013 at 01:04 PM benalt Says:

Reply to #6  
רך לב Says:

The good rabbi forgot what he learned:

מי האיש הירא ורך הלבב ילך וישוב לביתו ולא ימס לבב אחיו כלבבו (דברים כ, ח), ובגמ׳ (סוטה מג, א) דלר׳ יוסי הגלילי רך הלבב היינו שמתיירא מעבירות שבידו. ומי שיהיו עבירות בידו יתיירא וילך וישוב לביתו, ונמצא כי רק יראי ה׳ הנקיים מעבירות ילכו למלחמה. אולם כ"ז במלחמה ע"פ תורה לא כן הוא עכשיו ובפרט שנהפוך הוא רבוא מהצבא אינם אפילו שותומ"צ

You don't need to know that to be called Rabbi - only subjects like bossor b'cholov, melicha, taarovos and a big maybe on taharas mishpacha and mishna brura.

20

 Feb 25, 2013 at 01:09 PM Shlomo2 Says:

Reply to #1  
Geulah Says:

Get Lapid and Bennett to parade around in their IDF uniforms highlighting their campaign ribbons. My father, AH, used to say that anyone who wants to tell others to fight needs to demonstrate their own war experiences. Lapid hasn't any war experiences. Regarding what defends Eretz Yisroel and it's people, why don't you just say that it's Hashem.

Geulah #1 wrote, regarding Naftali Bennet and Yair Lapid: My father, AH, used to say that anyone who wants to tell others to fight needs to demonstrate their own war experiences.

You're right about Lapid.
However, Bennett served (and was even a company commander) in Sayeret Matkal and Sayeret Maglan, the most elite units in the IDF, carrying out super-secret operations that required toughness and bravery of the highest order.

21

 Feb 25, 2013 at 02:01 PM Hendale Says:

This Purim laitzan's message, that "it is those who do not study the Torah who are responsible for Israel’s security issues, and that it is they who must serve in the army", coupled with his picture depicting with that idiotic laugh, do absolutely zilch to confirm any possible trust we might have in him.

Whichever way one looks at him or what he has to say brings up completely negative thoughts. And whoever heard of him before today? More to he point, will we ever hear from him again? Somehow I doubt it very much.

22

 Feb 25, 2013 at 02:01 PM Kzler Says:

Reply to #1  
Geulah Says:

Get Lapid and Bennett to parade around in their IDF uniforms highlighting their campaign ribbons. My father, AH, used to say that anyone who wants to tell others to fight needs to demonstrate their own war experiences. Lapid hasn't any war experiences. Regarding what defends Eretz Yisroel and it's people, why don't you just say that it's Hashem.

In 1945 after my liberation from Buchenwald I was hospitalized in Italy and there I met soldiers of the Palestine Brigade. One of the bloodiest fight at the end of WWII was fought at Monte Cassino.The British had to come up from the Po valley and defeat the Germans on Monte Cassion. It was units of the Palestine Brigade and units of the Polish Anders Army which concurred Monte Cassino with a lot loss of lives

23

 Feb 25, 2013 at 02:04 PM Anonymous Says:

The rabbi is right. It was the klausenberger rebbe ztl who met Moshe Dayan and begged him not to allow the Arabs who fled after the six day war to return. The idiot Dayan allowed the Arabs to return and now we are stuck with the enemy within. Barack the other pork eater also offered to give up all the land to Arafat. Gilda Meir as well caused hundreds of Jewish soldiers to die the first day of yom kipper war to show world Arabs attacked first,as if the world cared. The seculars have one thing in their confused secular heads. Looking good in the eyes of the goyim. Once we Chareidim take over if an Arab throws a stone it's ten years jail for attempted murder or he can leave Israel for good with his entire family. We Chareidim are tired of these chilonim liberal cowards.

24

 Feb 25, 2013 at 02:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
proud-mo-israeli Says:

I'd love to hear how this joker explains the Holocaust when the vast majority of Jews DID study Torah.

"when the vast majority of Jews DID study Torah " are you joking?

25

 Feb 25, 2013 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Geulah Says:

Get Lapid and Bennett to parade around in their IDF uniforms highlighting their campaign ribbons. My father, AH, used to say that anyone who wants to tell others to fight needs to demonstrate their own war experiences. Lapid hasn't any war experiences. Regarding what defends Eretz Yisroel and it's people, why don't you just say that it's Hashem.

So according to you, even the non-observant Israelis don't need to bother to serve in the IDF, just leave it all to Gd, right?

And I guess Lapid has no right to say anything because your father used to have a saying about it.

26

 Feb 25, 2013 at 02:25 PM clear-thinker Says:

What I find fascinating is that those who say that the only defense of the Jewish people is the learning of Torah seem to have no interest in taking the next step. If learning Torah is the only important thing, any time we are in danger those scholars should run to the most dangerous spot. See what the seculars, and orthodox, who live there are going through. If that would be done I might understand better.

27

 Feb 25, 2013 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Shlomo2 Says:

Geulah #1 wrote, regarding Naftali Bennet and Yair Lapid: My father, AH, used to say that anyone who wants to tell others to fight needs to demonstrate their own war experiences.

You're right about Lapid.
However, Bennett served (and was even a company commander) in Sayeret Matkal and Sayeret Maglan, the most elite units in the IDF, carrying out super-secret operations that required toughness and bravery of the highest order.

and you two guys sit at home on the internet pontificating about whether Lapid or Bennett have the right to talk.

Please let us know when you actually get asked by them for your opinion or permission.

28

 Feb 25, 2013 at 03:06 PM Kzler Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

The rabbi is right. It was the klausenberger rebbe ztl who met Moshe Dayan and begged him not to allow the Arabs who fled after the six day war to return. The idiot Dayan allowed the Arabs to return and now we are stuck with the enemy within. Barack the other pork eater also offered to give up all the land to Arafat. Gilda Meir as well caused hundreds of Jewish soldiers to die the first day of yom kipper war to show world Arabs attacked first,as if the world cared. The seculars have one thing in their confused secular heads. Looking good in the eyes of the goyim. Once we Chareidim take over if an Arab throws a stone it's ten years jail for attempted murder or he can leave Israel for good with his entire family. We Chareidim are tired of these chilonim liberal cowards.

Chareidi how many units are composed of giborim like you and where did you serve. The fact is it was the "leftist"Palmach which saved the Galil. It was chilonim Paratroopers who were on the Mitla Pass. Yes there are pictures of soldiers in 1967 davening in front of their tanks.

29

 Feb 25, 2013 at 03:32 PM clear-thinker Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

The rabbi is right. It was the klausenberger rebbe ztl who met Moshe Dayan and begged him not to allow the Arabs who fled after the six day war to return. The idiot Dayan allowed the Arabs to return and now we are stuck with the enemy within. Barack the other pork eater also offered to give up all the land to Arafat. Gilda Meir as well caused hundreds of Jewish soldiers to die the first day of yom kipper war to show world Arabs attacked first,as if the world cared. The seculars have one thing in their confused secular heads. Looking good in the eyes of the goyim. Once we Chareidim take over if an Arab throws a stone it's ten years jail for attempted murder or he can leave Israel for good with his entire family. We Chareidim are tired of these chilonim liberal cowards.

Is that the day you join the army? Did you really think your post through before you wrote? "That idiot Dayan" led the troops into Yerushaliyim. He led the troop that freed the wall. Barack fought for the country. He went into Beirut dressed as a woman to kill enemies of the Jewish people. Golda Meir etc. made decisions, good or bad, but what was in the interest of the state. These "pork eaters" fought Arafat.
"We Chareidim are tired of these chilonim liberal cowards" Imagine how tired they are of Chareidim who will fight to the death of the last of the "chilonim liberal cowards" but refuse to have anyone from their community join in any fight..

30

 Feb 25, 2013 at 03:43 PM c Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

The rabbi is right. It was the klausenberger rebbe ztl who met Moshe Dayan and begged him not to allow the Arabs who fled after the six day war to return. The idiot Dayan allowed the Arabs to return and now we are stuck with the enemy within. Barack the other pork eater also offered to give up all the land to Arafat. Gilda Meir as well caused hundreds of Jewish soldiers to die the first day of yom kipper war to show world Arabs attacked first,as if the world cared. The seculars have one thing in their confused secular heads. Looking good in the eyes of the goyim. Once we Chareidim take over if an Arab throws a stone it's ten years jail for attempted murder or he can leave Israel for good with his entire family. We Chareidim are tired of these chilonim liberal cowards.

How are you going to run a country with no education, special skills or time to take away from learning?

31

 Feb 25, 2013 at 03:46 PM c Says:

Reply to #26  
clear-thinker Says:

What I find fascinating is that those who say that the only defense of the Jewish people is the learning of Torah seem to have no interest in taking the next step. If learning Torah is the only important thing, any time we are in danger those scholars should run to the most dangerous spot. See what the seculars, and orthodox, who live there are going through. If that would be done I might understand better.

They are in the most dangerous spots already. The only reason there is less danger there is because they are learning Torah there. If they would move to the spots where the dangerous action is, the danger would move to where they left from.

32

 Feb 25, 2013 at 04:01 PM TexasJew Says:

"Respected Rabbi" not in my eyes. I wish these guys would just shut-up already. At this rate will never witness Mashiach.

33

 Feb 25, 2013 at 04:09 PM Haredi LIte Says:

Reply to #11  
Raphael_Kaufman Says:

You and #3 too. It is a myth that the "vast majority" of Jews in pre-war Europe were frum and lomdei Torah. While the Chassidim were somewhat successful in maintaining a traditional lifestyle in the face of Haskalah, in Lite The Haskalah took an enormous toll. The yeshivos themselves were particular hot beds of haskalah to the extent that many were closed down. Voloshin was closed in 1905 because of the participation of a large number of bachurim in the failed revolution of that year.

P.S. Another popular myth is that Voloshin closed rather than teach secular subjects. The fact is that Voloshin taught Russian language and mathematics since 1893, albeit in a separate building. It was finally closed for the reason cited above.

We all want to believe that "der Heim" was an idyllic place where everyone was frum and we all learned Torah and we were all someiach b'chelkeinu. The unhappy fact is that European Jewry, post WWI, was a seething mess of political and religious discord and in-fighting. If you want to know what Europe was like, look at the religious and political system that was export to present day Israel.

This is #3 replying. I was very careful in how I chose my words. I wrote: "In Europe, there were more great talmidei chachomim (and fewer seculars) than there are today, but that didn't stop the Holocaust." I guess you missed the word "great" in the phrase "more great talmidei chachomim."
I am well aware of the history that you cite and none of it contradicts anything that I wrote.

34

 Feb 25, 2013 at 04:27 PM sasregener Says:

SIYUG LECHOCMO SHTIKA......Rebbe Shlita...with all due respect. you better make sure your own personal house is in order before you cast blame. In my humble opinion you are not qualified to make statements like this. Unless your are a GODOL HADOR then maybe, and even previous gedolim never made rash proclamations like this. you have to be so careful in this day and age what you say because the world is topsy turvy/

35

 Feb 25, 2013 at 06:03 PM clear-thinker Says:

Reply to #31  
c Says:

They are in the most dangerous spots already. The only reason there is less danger there is because they are learning Torah there. If they would move to the spots where the dangerous action is, the danger would move to where they left from.

Do you really believe the dribble you wrote? People in Bnai Brak are in a more dangerous place than those in Sderot? You should be able to come up with a better answer.

36

 Feb 25, 2013 at 06:11 PM Norden Says:

Reply to #31  
c Says:

They are in the most dangerous spots already. The only reason there is less danger there is because they are learning Torah there. If they would move to the spots where the dangerous action is, the danger would move to where they left from.

c #31, you may not have noticed but Purim is now finished for another year. I tell you that because I suppose you would not have employed such circular "logic" if you had been stone cold sober.

But your supreme pearl of wisdom has been noted and doubtless it will be submitted for the prestigious Shmendrik of the Year competition. I really think that you stand an excellent chance of winning it.

37

 Feb 25, 2013 at 06:28 PM Raphael_Kaufman Says:

Reply to #33  
Haredi LIte Says:

This is #3 replying. I was very careful in how I chose my words. I wrote: "In Europe, there were more great talmidei chachomim (and fewer seculars) than there are today, but that didn't stop the Holocaust." I guess you missed the word "great" in the phrase "more great talmidei chachomim."
I am well aware of the history that you cite and none of it contradicts anything that I wrote.

Excuse me. You did, indeed, qualify your description. My comments were mostly for number 5.

38

 Feb 25, 2013 at 06:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Hendale Says:

This Purim laitzan's message, that "it is those who do not study the Torah who are responsible for Israel’s security issues, and that it is they who must serve in the army", coupled with his picture depicting with that idiotic laugh, do absolutely zilch to confirm any possible trust we might have in him.

Whichever way one looks at him or what he has to say brings up completely negative thoughts. And whoever heard of him before today? More to he point, will we ever hear from him again? Somehow I doubt it very much.

I don't agree with the Rabbi's comments, but at least he was only giving his own opinion.

You, on the other hand, have the arrogance to comment on our behalf, and badly at that.

Next time say "I" instead of "we". You don't speak for what we believe or disbelieve.

39

 Feb 25, 2013 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

The rabbi is right. It was the klausenberger rebbe ztl who met Moshe Dayan and begged him not to allow the Arabs who fled after the six day war to return. The idiot Dayan allowed the Arabs to return and now we are stuck with the enemy within. Barack the other pork eater also offered to give up all the land to Arafat. Gilda Meir as well caused hundreds of Jewish soldiers to die the first day of yom kipper war to show world Arabs attacked first,as if the world cared. The seculars have one thing in their confused secular heads. Looking good in the eyes of the goyim. Once we Chareidim take over if an Arab throws a stone it's ten years jail for attempted murder or he can leave Israel for good with his entire family. We Chareidim are tired of these chilonim liberal cowards.

it is YOU, not "we chareidim".

You don't speak for the chareidim, and in fact speak speak for no one but your foolish and uneducated self.

40

 Feb 25, 2013 at 06:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
c Says:

They are in the most dangerous spots already. The only reason there is less danger there is because they are learning Torah there. If they would move to the spots where the dangerous action is, the danger would move to where they left from.

if you're going to try comedy, make sure people understand you are trying to be funny.

41

 Feb 25, 2013 at 06:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
sasregener Says:

SIYUG LECHOCMO SHTIKA......Rebbe Shlita...with all due respect. you better make sure your own personal house is in order before you cast blame. In my humble opinion you are not qualified to make statements like this. Unless your are a GODOL HADOR then maybe, and even previous gedolim never made rash proclamations like this. you have to be so careful in this day and age what you say because the world is topsy turvy/

because the world is topsy turvy? what does that mean? and we only have to be careful what we say "in this day and age"? did you think at all before you wrote?

42

 Feb 25, 2013 at 07:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
proud-mo-israeli Says:

I'd love to hear how this joker explains the Holocaust when the vast majority of Jews DID study Torah.

Although the Rabbi's words seem to appear to lack real depth of the issue, there seems to be misconception, misinformation and comparison to the holocaust. 1st of all the majority of jews did not learn torah during the holocaust era. perhaps the quality was greater but the quantity was less. There was around 4 thousand yeshivah students pre wwll. 2nd of all Haskala was rampant at that time. The struggles of the times were mikvah and shabbat. Yes perhaps there was a simplicity and purity, but many Jews were ignorant of basic customs and halachic rituals.

43

 Feb 25, 2013 at 08:03 PM sasregener Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

because the world is topsy turvy? what does that mean? and we only have to be careful what we say "in this day and age"? did you think at all before you wrote?

What i meant by topsy turvy is that events are happening very quickly and what to someone Intelligent seems to be right is actualy totaly wrong. Its confusing times. Daas torah is not what it used to be. Learned people who should know better say the dumbest things. Unless i hear something from rav chaim kanievsky shlitas mouth , or someone on his level , im not taking it seriously

44

 Feb 25, 2013 at 08:10 PM sasregener Says:

Unless you are on the level of rav eliyashiv or rav kanievsky , please rebbe respectfully remain silent. Rav moshe and the satmar rebbe never commented about why the shoah happenned no matter what they felt in their hearts. And you rebbe shlita with all due respect are no reb moshe or satmar rebbe

45

 Feb 25, 2013 at 08:11 PM sasregener Says:

Reply to #41  
Anonymous Says:

because the world is topsy turvy? what does that mean? and we only have to be careful what we say "in this day and age"? did you think at all before you wrote?

What i meant by topsy turvy is that events are happening very quickly and what to someone Intelligent seems to be right is actualy totaly wrong. Its confusing times. Daas torah is not what it used to be. Learned people who should know better say the dumbest things. Unless i hear something from rav chaim kanievsky shlitas mouth , or someone on his level , im not taking it seriously

46

 Feb 25, 2013 at 08:33 PM Kzler Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Although the Rabbi's words seem to appear to lack real depth of the issue, there seems to be misconception, misinformation and comparison to the holocaust. 1st of all the majority of jews did not learn torah during the holocaust era. perhaps the quality was greater but the quantity was less. There was around 4 thousand yeshivah students pre wwll. 2nd of all Haskala was rampant at that time. The struggles of the times were mikvah and shabbat. Yes perhaps there was a simplicity and purity, but many Jews were ignorant of basic customs and halachic rituals.

I was born in Vienna and brought up in a chasidic enviroment. Some of your information is true and part is totally wrong. The Yeshiva enviroment was predominant in Lithuania , Latvia. In Central Europe those who were able to lerarn learned in a Beth Hamidrash. I, rather my father was well informed about "basic customs and halachic" rituals and where your got this misinformation is unknown to since your never saw Europe and probably have a sketchy knowledge. E.g. during Hitler to "shlug kapores" was impossible because of lack of shechita and my father A'H said you can use a live fish which is true. My father A'H never went to Yeshiva and my mother A'H never went to seminary and in midos and bein adom l'chavero they could match anyone I have met except probably you who has put himself on pedestal of hot air.Many times I have vowed to ignore this website in order to avoid reading total maximum ignorance. My upbringing allowed me or rather gave me enough emunah to daven in concentration camp come out and staRT a famiy. Reading your epistle it makes me sad and at loss

47

 Feb 25, 2013 at 08:39 PM Kzler Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Although the Rabbi's words seem to appear to lack real depth of the issue, there seems to be misconception, misinformation and comparison to the holocaust. 1st of all the majority of jews did not learn torah during the holocaust era. perhaps the quality was greater but the quantity was less. There was around 4 thousand yeshivah students pre wwll. 2nd of all Haskala was rampant at that time. The struggles of the times were mikvah and shabbat. Yes perhaps there was a simplicity and purity, but many Jews were ignorant of basic customs and halachic rituals.

Anonymous you used superficial , hearsay knowledge and made it an axiom which in College I would have flunked you.

48

 Feb 25, 2013 at 09:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Although the Rabbi's words seem to appear to lack real depth of the issue, there seems to be misconception, misinformation and comparison to the holocaust. 1st of all the majority of jews did not learn torah during the holocaust era. perhaps the quality was greater but the quantity was less. There was around 4 thousand yeshivah students pre wwll. 2nd of all Haskala was rampant at that time. The struggles of the times were mikvah and shabbat. Yes perhaps there was a simplicity and purity, but many Jews were ignorant of basic customs and halachic rituals.

Oh, so THAT'S the explanation for the Holocaust!

49

 Feb 25, 2013 at 09:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
proud-mo-israeli Says:

I'd love to hear how this joker explains the Holocaust when the vast majority of Jews DID study Torah.

What are you talking about? Most of Europe was under the influence of the Haskalah by the time the Holocaust hit. Look on Youtube at the video of Jewish life in Munkatch in 1933, where there were only a handful of kids in the heimishe cheder, and they hardly knew what they were saying, while there were over a hundred kids singing hatikvah perfectly, and several hundred teenage boys and girls dancing bdavka with taaruvos, singing a chassidishe niggun nonetheless!!! And that was in a chassidishe city! Forget about much of Lita where it was almost only the Rabbonim were frum, and in the yeshivos themselves were learning some of the biggest maskilim and apikorsim, all the more so in western europe, where yiddishkeit was all but forgetten save for a few brave kehilos! Europe in the heim right before the War was not as holy as it was even a few decades earlier, although there were tzaddikim and erlicher yidden, they were not the majority by any means.

50

 Feb 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM c Says:

Reply to #35  
clear-thinker Says:

Do you really believe the dribble you wrote? People in Bnai Brak are in a more dangerous place than those in Sderot? You should be able to come up with a better answer.

@35 and 36. I was being facetious in a humoristic attempt to point out the absurdity in the logic of the people who would blame the wars on secular Jews. I thought my comment was so ridiculous that my intent would be obvious. @40, I guss you are right. The thinking of Charedim has become so warped that people could actually think I meant my comment seriously. Well that was kind of the point of my comment anyway :).

51

 Feb 25, 2013 at 10:17 PM ענינא דיומא Says:

מצוה ללמוד לפני סעודת פורים,
והטעם מבואר בדרכי משה שהתורה יגן עליו שלא יארע תקלה בשעת הסעודה.
ואם בשעה שעוסק במצות סעודת פורים ק"ו בשאר יום שצריכים זכות הלימוד התורה,
ויה"ר שכל מי שעוסק בתורה וכן כל מי שמחזק התורה שהתורה יגן בעדו ובעד כל משפחתו עד ביאת גוא"צ בב"א

52

 Feb 25, 2013 at 10:18 PM Anonymous Says:

I'm number 23 replying. Moshe Dayan was the general in six day war but allowed the Arabs who fled to return despite the klausenberger rebbe begging him not to. The rebbe told him that they would harm the Jewish populace in the future. Barack the pork eater was offering Arafat all of Jerusalem and offering Syria the return of west bank. You anti Chareidi Commentator are saying he dressed up as a woman to infiltrate Arab territories,hes still a woman and is no better than golds Meir who used frum header soldiers as cannon fotter in yom kipper 1973 war. Her and Dayan both wanted to show world how the Arabs attacked first at the expense of 500 religious soldiers. They knew of the planned attack by Egypt and Syria yet left the borders manned by a handful of troops. Ans rabin the other traitor who actually ate dog flesh in his visit to Japan was responsible for a thousand Jews dying in Israel as he gave the PLO 50 thousand guns. So now instead of stones they can shoot Jews. This is your secular leaders who want to draft yeshiva students. In fact olmarts own two sons never joined the army and ran away from Israel and yet when he was prime minister he confused the Israeli soldiers with one minute telling them to attack in Lebanon and next minute they had to sit like sitting ducks getting fired upon like Jews in the holocaust firing squads. Only a Chareidi leader like amnon yitzchak will make a good prime minister. All these secular bareheaded bafoons are self hating Jews.

53

 Feb 26, 2013 at 02:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Geulah Says:

Get Lapid and Bennett to parade around in their IDF uniforms highlighting their campaign ribbons. My father, AH, used to say that anyone who wants to tell others to fight needs to demonstrate their own war experiences. Lapid hasn't any war experiences. Regarding what defends Eretz Yisroel and it's people, why don't you just say that it's Hashem.

i dont know if all those who comment here are jews. if you are, some of the statements here is mind boggling. it is Hashem Who protects israel and the world. how many missiles did the iron dome block? how many fell near schools and some hit schools and yet there were no deaths? how many missiles and bullets have passed the idf and yet caused no harm. ofcourse we have to help ourselves, and Hashem blesses the efforts. but even without a single idf, Hashem can perform His battles and win. its just that He wants you, His jewish people involved in everything He does. i think this exile has gone on too long. living in a non jewish world outside isr, many jews think and behave like gentiles. on account of some of your forefathers, moshe could not enter the holy land, dont let it be because of some of you, mosiach is delayed.

54

 Feb 26, 2013 at 02:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Avi Says:

In a weird way, he's right. If not for the seculars, he and every other Charedi would have been slaughtered, thus ending all the violence (against Jews).

the above is one of the most rotten things i have heard about jews from another jew, i.e. if you are a jew, judging from your name. you ought to be ashamed of yourself. find the time to study the chofez chaim's loshan hara course. if you dont want to spend your precious money on something so pure and holy, its free on the net. try it.

55

 Feb 26, 2013 at 02:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

I'm number 23 replying. Moshe Dayan was the general in six day war but allowed the Arabs who fled to return despite the klausenberger rebbe begging him not to. The rebbe told him that they would harm the Jewish populace in the future. Barack the pork eater was offering Arafat all of Jerusalem and offering Syria the return of west bank. You anti Chareidi Commentator are saying he dressed up as a woman to infiltrate Arab territories,hes still a woman and is no better than golds Meir who used frum header soldiers as cannon fotter in yom kipper 1973 war. Her and Dayan both wanted to show world how the Arabs attacked first at the expense of 500 religious soldiers. They knew of the planned attack by Egypt and Syria yet left the borders manned by a handful of troops. Ans rabin the other traitor who actually ate dog flesh in his visit to Japan was responsible for a thousand Jews dying in Israel as he gave the PLO 50 thousand guns. So now instead of stones they can shoot Jews. This is your secular leaders who want to draft yeshiva students. In fact olmarts own two sons never joined the army and ran away from Israel and yet when he was prime minister he confused the Israeli soldiers with one minute telling them to attack in Lebanon and next minute they had to sit like sitting ducks getting fired upon like Jews in the holocaust firing squads. Only a Chareidi leader like amnon yitzchak will make a good prime minister. All these secular bareheaded bafoons are self hating Jews.

it was nice reading some truth for a change. however, no matter how much other jews provoke you, it would be a great Sanctification of Hashem's Name to defend the holy torah, but please, dont bring yourself down to their level and call them names. they want to behave like gentiles, let them.

56

 Feb 26, 2013 at 02:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Haredi Lite Says:

The idea of Torah protecting the Jewish people has been taken way too far - way beyond anything that the Torah itself teaches. In fact, the Torah says that when selecting soldiers for the army, איש הירא ורך הלבב (whoever is afraid of the aveiros he has committed) should NOT fight. It is ONLY the tzadikim who were chosen as soldiers.
This explains where there seems to be in inverse relationship between Torah learning and Jewish security. In Europe, there were more great talmidei chachomim (and fewer seculars) than there are today, but that didn't stop the Holocaust. In the wars of 1948 and 1967, when there were relatively few men learning in kollel, the Israeli army defeated its enemise decisively, often with the help of miracles. But in recent decades, when the number of kollel members has ballooned, the Israel has struggled on the battlefield.

really??when the number of kollel members has balooned, ............... really???
today in the arutz sheva:
Revealed: ‘Iron Dome’ was Down as Iran Threatened
The rocket defense system in northern Israel was down for weeks due to flooding – while Iran threatened via Syria and Hizbullah.
AAFont Size
By Maayana Miskin
First Publish: 2/26/2013, 9:29 AM


Iron Dome anti-missile system
IDF Spokesman
An Iron Dome rocket defense installation positioned in northern Israel was out of service for six weeks, Army Radio (Galei Tzahal) reported Tuesday.

The system was damaged when the building it was stored in, in the Air Force base in Hatzor, was flooded during the major rainstorm that hit the country in January. The Haelah river near the base overran its banks during the storm and flooded the base.

The Iron Dome was so badly damaged that it could not be used. It has since been repaired and is now operational.

During the weeks that it was down, Iran threatened to attack Israel in retaliation for the destruction of a chemical weapons processing center near Damascus. The Iranian regime threatened a response via Syria.

so who protected the Land. ?? during these two weeks. ??

57

 Feb 26, 2013 at 09:58 AM Haredi Lite Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

really??when the number of kollel members has balooned, ............... really???
today in the arutz sheva:
Revealed: ‘Iron Dome’ was Down as Iran Threatened
The rocket defense system in northern Israel was down for weeks due to flooding – while Iran threatened via Syria and Hizbullah.
AAFont Size
By Maayana Miskin
First Publish: 2/26/2013, 9:29 AM


Iron Dome anti-missile system
IDF Spokesman
An Iron Dome rocket defense installation positioned in northern Israel was out of service for six weeks, Army Radio (Galei Tzahal) reported Tuesday.

The system was damaged when the building it was stored in, in the Air Force base in Hatzor, was flooded during the major rainstorm that hit the country in January. The Haelah river near the base overran its banks during the storm and flooded the base.

The Iron Dome was so badly damaged that it could not be used. It has since been repaired and is now operational.

During the weeks that it was down, Iran threatened to attack Israel in retaliation for the destruction of a chemical weapons processing center near Damascus. The Iranian regime threatened a response via Syria.

so who protected the Land. ?? during these two weeks. ??

I feel sorry for those who believe that kollellim do more than the IDF to protect Israel. You have to resort to all kinds of creative nonsense to support your position.
This is what I wrote:
"In the wars of 1948 and 1967, when there were relatively few men learning in kollel, the Israeli army defeated its enemise decisively, often with the help of miracles. But in recent decades, when the number of kollel members has ballooned, Israel has struggled on the battlefield."
What is your response?
A. You get all worked up just because I pointed out that the number of kollel members has increased enormously since 1967.
B. You ask who protected Israel when an Iron Dome Installation was down for 2 weeks in northern Israel. Well, what does that prove? The fact that nobody tried to shoot missiles then could be for any of a number of reasons, one of them being that Iran does not want to incur retaliation by the IDF.

I don't deny that Hashem protects us. As I wrote, Hashem performed miracles in the wars of the '48 & '67. However, this shemirah seems to have absolutely no correlation to the amount of Torah learning. Do you have any facts that show otherwise?

58

 Feb 26, 2013 at 10:09 AM clear-thinker Says:

Reply to #50  
c Says:

@35 and 36. I was being facetious in a humoristic attempt to point out the absurdity in the logic of the people who would blame the wars on secular Jews. I thought my comment was so ridiculous that my intent would be obvious. @40, I guss you are right. The thinking of Charedim has become so warped that people could actually think I meant my comment seriously. Well that was kind of the point of my comment anyway :).

Perhaps I read this site too seriously. Few try to post absurdities and expect others to recognize the sarcasm. I apologize to you. However, in my defense, read some of the other replies. Your statement would be considered too mainstream and tame by many here. Perhaps I am unfair. Number 52 you are also joking! You realize that Dayan, Barak et al fought battles that saved the medina. You are trying to tell us that Chareidim have to share the load of the defense of Israel beyond learning. You recognize that frum Jews in ancient times fought in battles. Now I understand and your post was pure genius.

59

 Feb 26, 2013 at 10:21 AM Shtarker Says:

This is only the latest example of how right-wing Orthodox communities are increasingly out-of-touch and irrelevant. No one else pays attention to their leaders.

60

 Feb 26, 2013 at 05:10 PM c Says:

Reply to #58  
clear-thinker Says:

Perhaps I read this site too seriously. Few try to post absurdities and expect others to recognize the sarcasm. I apologize to you. However, in my defense, read some of the other replies. Your statement would be considered too mainstream and tame by many here. Perhaps I am unfair. Number 52 you are also joking! You realize that Dayan, Barak et al fought battles that saved the medina. You are trying to tell us that Chareidim have to share the load of the defense of Israel beyond learning. You recognize that frum Jews in ancient times fought in battles. Now I understand and your post was pure genius.

I'm guilty as charged. I wanted to see if anyone would take me seriously. I thought you would realize that I was agreeing with you. My son disagreed with me. I guess he was right. Next time I will make it clear as people do take these comments seriously and rightfully so. I became a "BT" at a young age about 30 years ago. The Jewish religion I see today is so much different than it was then. There is a lot of good going on, don't get me wrong, but this movement toward increasing insularity, elitism, and extremism is saddening. Many of us deny our children a basic secular education, subdue their musical and artistic talents, dull their senses and set them to be non-contributing members of society as opposed to the great people many of them, could be. Not only are we contributing to society less and less, we come up these absurd theories that the people who dedicate their lives to helping society are causing wars and people who do nothing to benefit society are stopping them.

61

 Feb 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Kzler Says:

Anonymous you used superficial , hearsay knowledge and made it an axiom which in College I would have flunked you.

Kzler dude, im surprised you know what axiom means, especially since your from the previous generation. Your vocab is outstanding. If I was a professor I would have given you an A+, for Dribble. Any historian and truth seeking individual knows the rampant ignorance and anti Torah stance that was prevalent during that era. Yes there were great Rebbes and Gidolim and many outstanding Torah Scholars, but the overall state of the jews was very sad. You seem to take it personal for which I apologize for, I did not intend to hurt your pride and awaken deep emotions. But perhaps you need to think more broadly and globally and not just what happened in your town, which im sure was a very holy and pure place. If you want references I will gladly share them with you.

62

 Feb 27, 2013 at 12:23 AM honestyidreply Says:

Reply to #46  
Kzler Says:

I was born in Vienna and brought up in a chasidic enviroment. Some of your information is true and part is totally wrong. The Yeshiva enviroment was predominant in Lithuania , Latvia. In Central Europe those who were able to lerarn learned in a Beth Hamidrash. I, rather my father was well informed about "basic customs and halachic" rituals and where your got this misinformation is unknown to since your never saw Europe and probably have a sketchy knowledge. E.g. during Hitler to "shlug kapores" was impossible because of lack of shechita and my father A'H said you can use a live fish which is true. My father A'H never went to Yeshiva and my mother A'H never went to seminary and in midos and bein adom l'chavero they could match anyone I have met except probably you who has put himself on pedestal of hot air.Many times I have vowed to ignore this website in order to avoid reading total maximum ignorance. My upbringing allowed me or rather gave me enough emunah to daven in concentration camp come out and staRT a famiy. Reading your epistle it makes me sad and at loss

Read # 49's reply he's on the money. Your reply doesn't seem to contradict # 42. You seem to take a very defensive stand with out acknowledging there was ever an issue in the first place. Ah guten and many more years.

63

 Feb 27, 2013 at 12:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

Oh, so THAT'S the explanation for the Holocaust!

only the Satmar Rebba ( and others)gave explanations. You seem to have a complex and assume that everyone has an opinion and you must rush to make a point. god forbid would I dare try to give explanations into something I have no business delving into. But please dont rush to judgment and make an inference from what I wrote.

64

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