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New York - Report: NYC Health Officials Report 2nd Case Of Infant Herpes From Metzitzah B'Peh

Published on: April 3, 2013 03:17 PM
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New York - New York City health officials have reported that a second infant has contracted herpes after undergoing metzitzah b’peh.

FORWARD.com (http://bit.ly/17dqrWw) is reporting that the child came down with a fever and developed lesions in its genital area approximately one week after undergoing the controversial procedure.

The child was subsequently diagnosed with Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1.

According to the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH), the parents of the child failed to submit an informed consent waiver which, as of January 2013, is a requirement for the metzitzah b’peh rite.

Despite the violation, DOHMH says no legal action will be forthcoming.

According to DOHMH records, it is the 13th reported case since 2000.


More of today's headlines

New York - At least one New York City hospital is denying charges that it is purposely underreporting the number of cases in which infants are contracting herpes during... Washington - The White House says President Barack Obama will return 5 percent of his salary to the Treasury in light of automatic spending cuts that have led to...

 

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1

 Apr 03, 2013 at 03:20 PM Anonymous Says:

The 13th case in 13 years? Also too much but not enough for all the hoopla

3

 Apr 03, 2013 at 03:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Rebona Shel Haolam make them stop this madness~!

4

 Apr 03, 2013 at 03:29 PM jay Says:

NYC offical have no credibility on this issue a independent panel
Will need to confirm there findings otherwise don't bother

5

 Apr 03, 2013 at 03:38 PM Balaboos Says:

...and who says that the HSV had ANYTHING to do with the bris or the MBP??? Maybe it was the nurses un-gloved finger???

6

 Apr 03, 2013 at 03:43 PM ShlomoA Says:

This case has NOT been laboratory confirmed. {Therefore it is reported as "diagnosed with herpes", not as a confirmed case)
In fact hospital lab results were negative for Herpes.
He is being treated in hospital as an extra precaution in case the lab results are false.

7

 Apr 03, 2013 at 03:50 PM Avi Says:

Nobody can blame the Chazal for the Herpes.
How should the Chazal have known, that were going to ignore our modern Medical Science, and follow their old doctors.

8

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:06 PM Anonymous Says:

My deepest condolences to the Heartbroken Parent's and to their whole family. Nefesh Achas Myisroel.

9

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:07 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

The 13th case in 13 years? Also too much but not enough for all the hoopla

Apparantly youre not too bright even 1 childs death is one too many,oh but not for you youre an oiber chuchem nothing phasses, youre callous indifference shows youre true character.

10

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

The 13th case in 13 years? Also too much but not enough for all the hoopla

Listen Mr. K'nocker, if one of the 13 was YOURS you wouldn't be such a big shot!

11

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Why no prosecution? Their baby will be damaged for the rest of his life...herpes is forever.

12

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:27 PM OccupyAgudah Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

The 13th case in 13 years? Also too much but not enough for all the hoopla

It is the 13th " reported" case. It is not the 13th case. I agree with you that it is still too much. That is why we need all the hoopla. We value each life as if it is the world. We must protect the lives and health of those that can't protect themselves. A suction tube and mandatory testing is in order.

13

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:27 PM Voice-of-Reason Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

The 13th case in 13 years? Also too much but not enough for all the hoopla

Why not enough? If it were your child I suspect you'd have a different perspective.

14

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:49 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #6  
ShlomoA Says:

This case has NOT been laboratory confirmed. {Therefore it is reported as "diagnosed with herpes", not as a confirmed case)
In fact hospital lab results were negative for Herpes.
He is being treated in hospital as an extra precaution in case the lab results are false.

In fact hospital lab results were negative for Herpes.

and how do you know this info please we all want to know?

15

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:53 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #7  
Avi Says:

Nobody can blame the Chazal for the Herpes.
How should the Chazal have known, that were going to ignore our modern Medical Science, and follow their old doctors.

nobody is blaming chazel, I am sure if chazel had today’s information they would ban it just like they said to do it in their time since it was believed to be medical necessary

16

 Apr 03, 2013 at 04:59 PM RN Says:

Reply to #5  
Balaboos Says:

...and who says that the HSV had ANYTHING to do with the bris or the MBP??? Maybe it was the nurses un-gloved finger???

Do me a favor please, share all the opinions you want on this topic, I don't care, but please do NOT write about how herpes is spread if you are not at all in health care. Herpes is not spread via fingers. The herpes virus does not live on a finger. It does live in saliva and on the oral membranes and can easily transfer to an open, raw, bleeding wound such as the one that exists via bris mila. You want to share opinions that only emphasize your ignorance, go ahead .. but please stay out of disease transmission.

17

 Apr 03, 2013 at 05:05 PM c Says:

It's amazing how people will risk the lives of their children, even if its a small risk. The parents of this child probably held similar views to comments 1,4,5 and 6 above or at least foolishly listened to such driveling non-sense.

18

 Apr 03, 2013 at 05:12 PM c Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

The 13th case in 13 years? Also too much but not enough for all the hoopla

13th reported case, you moron. And isn't one case too many! 13 of other people children I guess aren't worth much to you. And since the link has now been made you are seeing a lot more reported cases here and in Israel. And aside from herpes there are many other viruses that can just as deadly to a baby with saliva being transferred to an open wound, RSV for one. You don't need a lab test to know that, do you?

19

 Apr 03, 2013 at 05:13 PM The_Beadle Says:

Reply to #5  
Balaboos Says:

...and who says that the HSV had ANYTHING to do with the bris or the MBP??? Maybe it was the nurses un-gloved finger???

Because that isn't how it works

20

 Apr 03, 2013 at 05:13 PM yossele Says:

Waiting for the Bloomberg's NYPD to start kicking down the doors of families who defy his intrusion into our 3000 year old religious rites.

21

 Apr 03, 2013 at 05:23 PM jpeditor Says:

Excuse me, but if you are going to insist on performing MBP, at least have the courtesy to have WEEKLY TESTS for herpes, etc.

Otherwise, I can guarantee you that sooner or later, some father of a kid you infect is going to cut off your little schmeckle before he kills you, and there isn't a jury in America who will convict him, and I doubt many Jews who will sympathize with you.

(and this goes for those who abuse children as well. IT STOPS NOW).

22

 Apr 03, 2013 at 05:43 PM aleph Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

My deepest condolences to the Heartbroken Parent's and to their whole family. Nefesh Achas Myisroel.

Pray for him, he's not dead.

23

 Apr 03, 2013 at 05:52 PM clear-thinker Says:

Reply to #13  
Voice-of-Reason Says:

Why not enough? If it were your child I suspect you'd have a different perspective.

You think too little of number 1. If his child got sick or even died he would never complain. He would never go to the authorities, after all he is not going to moser.

24

 Apr 03, 2013 at 06:00 PM njmom Says:

Reply to #5  
Balaboos Says:

...and who says that the HSV had ANYTHING to do with the bris or the MBP??? Maybe it was the nurses un-gloved finger???

the only other time oral herpes (simplex) is seen on someone's genitalia is from someone infected performing oral sex. this was not from some nurse's finger! get a clue about disease transmission. this was from an infected person's mouth coming in contact with an open wound that generally would not have been so susceptible. my own son contracted a bacterial infection soon after his bris with metzitza b'peh and let me tell - your blood freezes in your veins from fear. after 4 months, antibiotics finally managed to stamp it out. now having hindsight, i can't comprehend how jews allow this practice to continue.

25

 Apr 03, 2013 at 06:14 PM Truth Says:

Why are the Rabbonim heads in the sand? They scream that the Health Dept. has no business regulating this -perhaps they are right, but what about the innocent kids? The Chassam Sofer Mattired Not doing MBP because of this -so if you want to be Machmir at least have the Mohelim be tested and if Pos. let them take Antivirals!

26

 Apr 03, 2013 at 06:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Listen Mr. K'nocker, if one of the 13 was YOURS you wouldn't be such a big shot!

Actually, he would say nothing, and do nothing, because he has 5 other boys and 7 girls to marry off, and if he embarrasses the chassidic powers-that-be by suggesting anything be done. they will NOT get married.

This is from the same channel that brought you the non-reporting of sexual abuse of chassidic boys and girls.

27

 Apr 03, 2013 at 07:36 PM Mark Levin Says:

Reply to #7  
Avi Says:

Nobody can blame the Chazal for the Herpes.
How should the Chazal have known, that were going to ignore our modern Medical Science, and follow their old doctors.

YOU ARE A ROSHA!!!

If you were in front of my I would make a m'choa for kovod hatorah - something you obviously DON'T have!

You are no less a rosha and a kofer than the biggest ones we have ever had. Regardless of your personal FAMILY minhag, you are too pithy minded to understand, it begins with MBP but it ends with bris milah and Ch'v worse! The sonay yisroel don't need the help of the moron yiddin in our midst who have a box seat in g'henim waiting for them.

Wake up and do tshuva before its too late for you!!

28

 Apr 03, 2013 at 07:39 PM Pro-Lifer Says:

Pikuach nefesh overrides every mitzvah in the Torah. Why is mbp different?

29

 Apr 03, 2013 at 08:09 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #27  
Mark Levin Says:

YOU ARE A ROSHA!!!

If you were in front of my I would make a m'choa for kovod hatorah - something you obviously DON'T have!

You are no less a rosha and a kofer than the biggest ones we have ever had. Regardless of your personal FAMILY minhag, you are too pithy minded to understand, it begins with MBP but it ends with bris milah and Ch'v worse! The sonay yisroel don't need the help of the moron yiddin in our midst who have a box seat in g'henim waiting for them.

Wake up and do tshuva before its too late for you!!

There is no evil as evil as those who wont listen to reason, and you are among those evil ones,you are truly sick.

30

 Apr 03, 2013 at 08:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Human dignity never receives pain through a blessing. This practice should be reevaluated. Never again..

31

 Apr 03, 2013 at 08:26 PM Shlomo-1 Says:

Reply to #27  
Mark Levin Says:

YOU ARE A ROSHA!!!

If you were in front of my I would make a m'choa for kovod hatorah - something you obviously DON'T have!

You are no less a rosha and a kofer than the biggest ones we have ever had. Regardless of your personal FAMILY minhag, you are too pithy minded to understand, it begins with MBP but it ends with bris milah and Ch'v worse! The sonay yisroel don't need the help of the moron yiddin in our midst who have a box seat in g'henim waiting for them.

Wake up and do tshuva before its too late for you!!

So much emotion!
The science is fairly solid that MBP poses a risk of transmitting HSV.
Like much science, it's not 100% but to the level of certainty that a clear causal link has been drawn.
I personally know some of the people involved at DOH and they aren't interested in limiting milah. There is no covert plan to ban circumcision!

What is sad is that there is no such thing as giving the benefit of doubt--they must have an ulterior motive, they are looking to ban all milah.
Anyone who agrees that there is a health risk (myself included) must be an am ha'aretz, a kofer, a rashsa, a moser, or all of the above.

32

 Apr 03, 2013 at 09:25 PM c Says:

Reply to #31  
Shlomo-1 Says:

So much emotion!
The science is fairly solid that MBP poses a risk of transmitting HSV.
Like much science, it's not 100% but to the level of certainty that a clear causal link has been drawn.
I personally know some of the people involved at DOH and they aren't interested in limiting milah. There is no covert plan to ban circumcision!

What is sad is that there is no such thing as giving the benefit of doubt--they must have an ulterior motive, they are looking to ban all milah.
Anyone who agrees that there is a health risk (myself included) must be an am ha'aretz, a kofer, a rashsa, a moser, or all of the above.

You are trying to reason with a brainwashed automaton who has so insulated himself from reality that underpinnings of his belief system are closer to that of a J Witness than a Jew.

33

 Apr 03, 2013 at 09:56 PM Truth Says:

Reply to #16  
RN Says:

Do me a favor please, share all the opinions you want on this topic, I don't care, but please do NOT write about how herpes is spread if you are not at all in health care. Herpes is not spread via fingers. The herpes virus does not live on a finger. It does live in saliva and on the oral membranes and can easily transfer to an open, raw, bleeding wound such as the one that exists via bris mila. You want to share opinions that only emphasize your ignorance, go ahead .. but please stay out of disease transmission.

Actually the guy is medically correct. And I'm a medical prof., not just a nurse. But in our day and age it really doesn't occur. I'm not going to fault you because you probably never learned about the condition in nursing school. There is a condition called Herpes Whitlow and was quite common amongst healthcare workers when noone wore gloves. Nowadays I never heard of anyone with this. So technically the guy is correct -it's possible that some Healthcare worker had Whitlow and passed on the Herpes, but the liklihood of this occuring in our day and age is next to none. IMHO if MBP was done and the baby came down with HSV - it should be mandatory to test the Mohel, family members, healthcare workers and anybody else that had direct contact with the baby. After all the testing - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Mohel is Pos. for HSV. For some reason e/o (this includes Rabbonim, NYDOH) is protecting the Mohelim. If it's a possibility that the Mohel passed on HSV -we should force him to be tested.

34

 Apr 03, 2013 at 09:59 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #27  
Mark Levin Says:

YOU ARE A ROSHA!!!

If you were in front of my I would make a m'choa for kovod hatorah - something you obviously DON'T have!

You are no less a rosha and a kofer than the biggest ones we have ever had. Regardless of your personal FAMILY minhag, you are too pithy minded to understand, it begins with MBP but it ends with bris milah and Ch'v worse! The sonay yisroel don't need the help of the moron yiddin in our midst who have a box seat in g'henim waiting for them.

Wake up and do tshuva before its too late for you!!

YOU ARE A ROSHA

you will allow babies to die for something the Talmud clearly says was for medical reason and so doe the rambam

35

 Apr 03, 2013 at 10:02 PM Yossel Says:

Reply to #27  
Mark Levin Says:

YOU ARE A ROSHA!!!

If you were in front of my I would make a m'choa for kovod hatorah - something you obviously DON'T have!

You are no less a rosha and a kofer than the biggest ones we have ever had. Regardless of your personal FAMILY minhag, you are too pithy minded to understand, it begins with MBP but it ends with bris milah and Ch'v worse! The sonay yisroel don't need the help of the moron yiddin in our midst who have a box seat in g'henim waiting for them.

Wake up and do tshuva before its too late for you!!

Only a shoiteh would make such a statement. If MBP is being proven to cause risk to infants IN OUR TIME, use a pipette!

36

 Apr 03, 2013 at 10:23 PM Balaboos Says:

Reply to #16  
RN Says:

Do me a favor please, share all the opinions you want on this topic, I don't care, but please do NOT write about how herpes is spread if you are not at all in health care. Herpes is not spread via fingers. The herpes virus does not live on a finger. It does live in saliva and on the oral membranes and can easily transfer to an open, raw, bleeding wound such as the one that exists via bris mila. You want to share opinions that only emphasize your ignorance, go ahead .. but please stay out of disease transmission.

I actually happen to be in the field Mrs. RN, and I'm glad you we're never MY student....Do you work in a hospital environment or as "nurse" in a podiatrists office???

From the textbook: "Oral herpes is easily spread by direct exposure to saliva or even from droplets in breath. Skin contact with infected areas is enough to spread it. Transmission most often occurs through close personal contact"... (an un-gloved hand [remember your BSI?] that just wiped a drip of droll of the corner of the nurse's {or other caretaker's} mouth and makes contact at a fresh lancet puncture site, to mention one)

Before you go shooting your I-know-better-than-you mouth off presumptuously, consider that maybe you missed that lecture...

37

 Apr 03, 2013 at 10:59 PM RN Says:

Reply to #33  
Truth Says:

Actually the guy is medically correct. And I'm a medical prof., not just a nurse. But in our day and age it really doesn't occur. I'm not going to fault you because you probably never learned about the condition in nursing school. There is a condition called Herpes Whitlow and was quite common amongst healthcare workers when noone wore gloves. Nowadays I never heard of anyone with this. So technically the guy is correct -it's possible that some Healthcare worker had Whitlow and passed on the Herpes, but the liklihood of this occuring in our day and age is next to none. IMHO if MBP was done and the baby came down with HSV - it should be mandatory to test the Mohel, family members, healthcare workers and anybody else that had direct contact with the baby. After all the testing - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Mohel is Pos. for HSV. For some reason e/o (this includes Rabbonim, NYDOH) is protecting the Mohelim. If it's a possibility that the Mohel passed on HSV -we should force him to be tested.

JUST a nurse? Nice one, "professor". Your demeaning rhetoric is really not helpful for the ignorant masses. I am perfectly aware of Whitlow. However, you and I both know that Balaboo was NOT referring to Whitlow. In fact, in his (her) effort to share some "googled" information he hastily refers to the even more far fetched transmission of a swipe of drool to a cut.

Praytell, Balaboo - how many male babies born in the hospital have open cuts on their private areas that will indeed claim that miniscule chance the bit of drool the nurse has wiped from her mouth actually has the herpes virus and thus become infected?

Anyone with any schooling in the healthcare field who wants people to look for the needle when their is a very obvious sword sticking out the haystack is none too bright.

PS - if a nurse is handling a baby, even with Whitlow, and herpes is transferred, chances are it shows up somewhere OTHER than the penis of a baby, considering ... the fact that nurses are ALWAYS gloved when dealing with the private areas of the baby. As a NICU nurse, I can assure you of that.

But professors in classrooms really would not take into consideration the actual policy and

38

 Apr 03, 2013 at 11:02 PM RN Says:

Reply to #33  
Truth Says:

Actually the guy is medically correct. And I'm a medical prof., not just a nurse. But in our day and age it really doesn't occur. I'm not going to fault you because you probably never learned about the condition in nursing school. There is a condition called Herpes Whitlow and was quite common amongst healthcare workers when noone wore gloves. Nowadays I never heard of anyone with this. So technically the guy is correct -it's possible that some Healthcare worker had Whitlow and passed on the Herpes, but the liklihood of this occuring in our day and age is next to none. IMHO if MBP was done and the baby came down with HSV - it should be mandatory to test the Mohel, family members, healthcare workers and anybody else that had direct contact with the baby. After all the testing - I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Mohel is Pos. for HSV. For some reason e/o (this includes Rabbonim, NYDOH) is protecting the Mohelim. If it's a possibility that the Mohel passed on HSV -we should force him to be tested.

cont

procedures that nurses follow in hospitals.

And of course Balaboo who also claims to be a "teacher" must not be aware of actual practice in hospitals either. That being said, Balaboo .... Mohels definitely do not wear gloves and some of them are placing their mouths DIRECTLY on a baby boy's penis ..... but it must be the gloved nurse who wiped drool from her mouth and somehow spread that herpes laced drool into a lancet cut on a baby boy's privates. Nice try.

39

 Apr 03, 2013 at 11:25 PM CanadianGuy Says:

I once heard that it is not up to every Tom Dick and Harry in the butcher shop to engage in halachic arguments. As a baal teshuva, though, I can still vote with my feet and side with the gedolim who make sense to me. If a great tsaddik says mbp is a worthwhile risk, and say he's scientifically wrong on this issue, undermining his authority and his approach to life can have also severe repercussions. What about the risk of falling off the derech, etc. What about faith in our sages. Shutting that down is quite life threatening too.

40

 Apr 03, 2013 at 11:27 PM DyafMaven Says:

If you want MBP done on your son and you are so worried about the mohel giving herpes to your kid. How about do what I did ask mohel for permission if you can do MBP on your own son. Some mohel's let the father help out my son's let me do some of the cutting and the MBP. It is fathers mitzvah to do it we make the mohel our shaliach. If you feel you can do some of the bris rituals kol hakovad. This may cause less worries.
MBP takes under 5 seconds to do from my own experience, at most brises unless you watch for it you may never see it done.

41

 Apr 04, 2013 at 12:59 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #27  
Mark Levin Says:

YOU ARE A ROSHA!!!

If you were in front of my I would make a m'choa for kovod hatorah - something you obviously DON'T have!

You are no less a rosha and a kofer than the biggest ones we have ever had. Regardless of your personal FAMILY minhag, you are too pithy minded to understand, it begins with MBP but it ends with bris milah and Ch'v worse! The sonay yisroel don't need the help of the moron yiddin in our midst who have a box seat in g'henim waiting for them.

Wake up and do tshuva before its too late for you!!

Please add me to your list of roshaim, and your list of morons. I am proud to be on both lists.

42

 Apr 04, 2013 at 08:31 AM RN Says:

Reply to #40  
DyafMaven Says:

If you want MBP done on your son and you are so worried about the mohel giving herpes to your kid. How about do what I did ask mohel for permission if you can do MBP on your own son. Some mohel's let the father help out my son's let me do some of the cutting and the MBP. It is fathers mitzvah to do it we make the mohel our shaliach. If you feel you can do some of the bris rituals kol hakovad. This may cause less worries.
MBP takes under 5 seconds to do from my own experience, at most brises unless you watch for it you may never see it done.

And exactly how does this help if the father has the herpes virus as well. You do not need to see actual lesions to have an active case that can transmit the disease. And why did you mention "5" seconds? It does not matter if it is 1 or 20 seconds .... the disease can transfer.

43

 Apr 04, 2013 at 08:42 AM bubii Says:

Reply to #39  
CanadianGuy Says:

I once heard that it is not up to every Tom Dick and Harry in the butcher shop to engage in halachic arguments. As a baal teshuva, though, I can still vote with my feet and side with the gedolim who make sense to me. If a great tsaddik says mbp is a worthwhile risk, and say he's scientifically wrong on this issue, undermining his authority and his approach to life can have also severe repercussions. What about the risk of falling off the derech, etc. What about faith in our sages. Shutting that down is quite life threatening too.

If you want to risk youre own life thats ok with me but dont play god with a helpless babies life you are one demented deranged idiot.

44

 Apr 04, 2013 at 09:12 AM Shlomo Says:

To #7
Chazal knew every detail, even what goes on in Shomayim, even what will go on L'osid Lovoi. They knew about every child that's going to get Herpes from the MBP, and they must have held that MBP is a big Chiuv to do.
When Moshe did MBP on his son Eliezer with his lips, his Aral Sefosayim got cured, and he was able to speak to Pharoh and to the Rock. Yosef did MBP on the Mitzriem when they were forced to Maleh themselves to get food by the 7 years of hunger.

45

 Apr 04, 2013 at 09:13 AM brachavehatzlocha Says:

Reply to #31  
Shlomo-1 Says:

So much emotion!
The science is fairly solid that MBP poses a risk of transmitting HSV.
Like much science, it's not 100% but to the level of certainty that a clear causal link has been drawn.
I personally know some of the people involved at DOH and they aren't interested in limiting milah. There is no covert plan to ban circumcision!

What is sad is that there is no such thing as giving the benefit of doubt--they must have an ulterior motive, they are looking to ban all milah.
Anyone who agrees that there is a health risk (myself included) must be an am ha'aretz, a kofer, a rashsa, a moser, or all of the above.

I don't know whom you know at DOH, but I can tell you from firsthand knowledge that, while there may not be a specific agenda against bris milah, there is very much an agenda, at least among some of those in the leadership who have a very strong underlying philosophy that they know better than anyone how everyone else should be living. This is as deeply held a belief to some of them, as our religious beliefs are to us. And just as hard to defend rationally. And so the decrees keep coming...

Who says you can light candles for Shabbos or Yom Tov? There's a .000-whatever chance your house will catch fire! And your children didn't ask you to light those candles - how dare you put them at risk! You rasha!

And how dare you feed them all that unhealthy cholent...and make them fast on Yom Kippur (depriving them of food)...and eat matzah on Pesach (that gives them tummy aches)... why the whole religion is one long stream of abuse and neglect - and it can all be backed up by statistics!

46

 Apr 04, 2013 at 09:23 AM shredready Says:

Reply to #39  
CanadianGuy Says:

I once heard that it is not up to every Tom Dick and Harry in the butcher shop to engage in halachic arguments. As a baal teshuva, though, I can still vote with my feet and side with the gedolim who make sense to me. If a great tsaddik says mbp is a worthwhile risk, and say he's scientifically wrong on this issue, undermining his authority and his approach to life can have also severe repercussions. What about the risk of falling off the derech, etc. What about faith in our sages. Shutting that down is quite life threatening too.

If a great tsaddik says mbp is a worthwhile risk, and say he's scientifically wrong on this issue, undermining his authority and his approach to life can have also severe repercussions.

then he is simply no tsaddik if he is so stubborn and willing to risk peoples lives. Remember they are humane they can and make mistakes.

I guess falling off the derech is worse then a dead baby to you?

47

 Apr 04, 2013 at 09:44 AM DyafMaven Says:

Almost every person has had cold sores once in there life which usually comes from HSV1 and once you have HSV1 you have the virus in your system for life.
According to the CDC somewhere between 50% to 80% of Americans have the virus.
My point is 13 documented cases that claim that herpes come from MBP on genital area. When at least their is a bris almost every day and most mohels do MBP unless you tell them not or it is not their custom where they use a pipette. Also maybe Im mistaken but they place the pipette in their mouth near the region I do not know how that is better. I have heard of a method of using a sponge to do metziah but never heard or seen it being done.
Im not saying what should or not be done. I was suggesting if is your custom to have it done like it is mine maybe you will better do it yourself.
However, until I can see proof in one case that can trace the virus back to a mohel they I will always speculate that their may be another cause.

48

 Apr 04, 2013 at 09:47 AM DyafMaven Says:

I know it can be transmitted in 1 or 20 seconds. I mentioned5 seconds to prove the point that MBP happens at more brises then people think then unless they pay attention for it they will miss it being done entirely that was my point nothing at all to do with viral transmission of HSV1

49

 Apr 04, 2013 at 09:41 AM shredready Says:

Reply to #44  
Shlomo Says:

To #7
Chazal knew every detail, even what goes on in Shomayim, even what will go on L'osid Lovoi. They knew about every child that's going to get Herpes from the MBP, and they must have held that MBP is a big Chiuv to do.
When Moshe did MBP on his son Eliezer with his lips, his Aral Sefosayim got cured, and he was able to speak to Pharoh and to the Rock. Yosef did MBP on the Mitzriem when they were forced to Maleh themselves to get food by the 7 years of hunger.

interesting why did chazal not mention if the internet was kosher or not. If they knew the future of herpes cases they should also know about other stuff like the internet

50

 Apr 04, 2013 at 11:21 AM RN Says:

Reply to #47  
DyafMaven Says:

Almost every person has had cold sores once in there life which usually comes from HSV1 and once you have HSV1 you have the virus in your system for life.
According to the CDC somewhere between 50% to 80% of Americans have the virus.
My point is 13 documented cases that claim that herpes come from MBP on genital area. When at least their is a bris almost every day and most mohels do MBP unless you tell them not or it is not their custom where they use a pipette. Also maybe Im mistaken but they place the pipette in their mouth near the region I do not know how that is better. I have heard of a method of using a sponge to do metziah but never heard or seen it being done.
Im not saying what should or not be done. I was suggesting if is your custom to have it done like it is mine maybe you will better do it yourself.
However, until I can see proof in one case that can trace the virus back to a mohel they I will always speculate that their may be another cause.

People who carry HSV1 in their body do NOT develop genital lesions. Only direct contact to the genital area causes genital lesions. Do the math again with the appropriate methods of disease transmission.

51

 Apr 04, 2013 at 11:42 AM benalt Says:

According to one side, Chazal was relying on the medicine of their day and would not have mbp done today. According to the other side, medical science has it wrong and putting a deceased mouth on to a wound will not infect it. Lucky we all have the Torah so we don't go astray...

52

 Apr 04, 2013 at 12:47 PM Avi Says:

Reply to #44  
Shlomo Says:

To #7
Chazal knew every detail, even what goes on in Shomayim, even what will go on L'osid Lovoi. They knew about every child that's going to get Herpes from the MBP, and they must have held that MBP is a big Chiuv to do.
When Moshe did MBP on his son Eliezer with his lips, his Aral Sefosayim got cured, and he was able to speak to Pharoh and to the Rock. Yosef did MBP on the Mitzriem when they were forced to Maleh themselves to get food by the 7 years of hunger.

It's really scary that you believe any part of what you wrote.

Chazal were wrong about a great many things, and there's no way I could ever believe that they would be so stupid to not admit to mistakes. They did not have a better understanding of the natural sciences than anyone around them.

And for all you silly people out there... let's just say that MbP used to be safe, but nishtaneh hatevah and know it's not.

53

 Apr 04, 2013 at 11:57 AM DyafMaven Says:

I cannot do the math as you say without the data. I want to see the data and proof that is all.
I have a whole article explaining the statistics behind and it way to complicated to discuss in this format or forum and beyond the scope of this discussion. I just don't agree that MBP is the only possible cause. Im not denying that it is the cause. What im saying approximately 1000 brises a year where a mohel does MBP according to the article now extrapolate over 13 years 13,000 brises with 13 cases. their is a .1% chance based on history of transmission This is based on that article. The article can be found in Dialogue. Dialogue is a Jewish academic journal which in its 3rd issue discussed MBP at great length. The article is about the last 12 years and only 11 cases. I'm extrapolating

54

 Apr 04, 2013 at 12:36 PM Truth Says:

Reply to #37  
RN Says:

JUST a nurse? Nice one, "professor". Your demeaning rhetoric is really not helpful for the ignorant masses. I am perfectly aware of Whitlow. However, you and I both know that Balaboo was NOT referring to Whitlow. In fact, in his (her) effort to share some "googled" information he hastily refers to the even more far fetched transmission of a swipe of drool to a cut.

Praytell, Balaboo - how many male babies born in the hospital have open cuts on their private areas that will indeed claim that miniscule chance the bit of drool the nurse has wiped from her mouth actually has the herpes virus and thus become infected?

Anyone with any schooling in the healthcare field who wants people to look for the needle when their is a very obvious sword sticking out the haystack is none too bright.

PS - if a nurse is handling a baby, even with Whitlow, and herpes is transferred, chances are it shows up somewhere OTHER than the penis of a baby, considering ... the fact that nurses are ALWAYS gloved when dealing with the private areas of the baby. As a NICU nurse, I can assure you of that.

But professors in classrooms really would not take into consideration the actual policy and

Listen Mr/Ms Nurse - I in no way was taking his side.
You just posted that you are aware of Whitlow, but this is your quote -"Herpes is not spread via fingers. The herpes virus does not live on a finger."
I was just correcting your inaccurate post - that's all. Like I posted before I don't think the liklihood of the transmission from a healthcare worker is too great as compared to the Mohel who did MBP.
But why is the DOH making people sign papers? The best way to get to the bottom of this is to order testing on e/o involved in the care of this baby. To me the DOH are just as complacent in the diseases that these babies pick up as the Rabbonim, Mohalim, community, but the DOH should know better.

55

 Apr 04, 2013 at 03:32 PM RN Says:

Reply to #54  
Truth Says:

Listen Mr/Ms Nurse - I in no way was taking his side.
You just posted that you are aware of Whitlow, but this is your quote -"Herpes is not spread via fingers. The herpes virus does not live on a finger."
I was just correcting your inaccurate post - that's all. Like I posted before I don't think the liklihood of the transmission from a healthcare worker is too great as compared to the Mohel who did MBP.
But why is the DOH making people sign papers? The best way to get to the bottom of this is to order testing on e/o involved in the care of this baby. To me the DOH are just as complacent in the diseases that these babies pick up as the Rabbonim, Mohalim, community, but the DOH should know better.

First Whitlow is not ONLY herpatic. Second, it is more likely the health care worker will develop it from touching an infected area of lesions (not typical due to universal precautions) than it is for a healthcare worker to transmit it to a healthy patient via the finger.

My response was specific to realizing balaboo was not referring to whitlow. I am a healthcare provider who knows how to read between the lines and weed out those who like to utilize google and claim they have all the answers. If people would sign papers, the paper trail itself would be an easier way to follow the MODE of transmission than the complexity of testing everyone who ever came into contact with a baby.

56

 Apr 04, 2013 at 05:42 PM brachavehatzlocha Says:

Reply to #53  
DyafMaven Says:

I cannot do the math as you say without the data. I want to see the data and proof that is all.
I have a whole article explaining the statistics behind and it way to complicated to discuss in this format or forum and beyond the scope of this discussion. I just don't agree that MBP is the only possible cause. Im not denying that it is the cause. What im saying approximately 1000 brises a year where a mohel does MBP according to the article now extrapolate over 13 years 13,000 brises with 13 cases. their is a .1% chance based on history of transmission This is based on that article. The article can be found in Dialogue. Dialogue is a Jewish academic journal which in its 3rd issue discussed MBP at great length. The article is about the last 12 years and only 11 cases. I'm extrapolating

What makes you think there are only 1000 brissim a year with MBP? That number is conjured from thin air.

It is commonly practiced in chareidi/yeshivish/chasidish circles, and they give birth to a LOT more than just a 1000 baby boys a year.

57

 Apr 04, 2013 at 06:37 PM MbP is Ossur Mitzad HaDin Says:

I think the real question is how many brain damaged and dead babies it will take before the Chasidishe rabbonim and members of Agudah's Moetzes have the integrity to admit they're wrong about MbP.

There is no halachic heter to allow MbP. In the face of any health risk halacha dictates that the medical professionals take charge. Period.

Our rabbonim, have no say in this matter.

Once medical professionals determined that MbP is dangerous the practice became ossur. Period.

Any parent who allows a mohel to perform MbP on their son is being oiver on ushmartem and is a roitzeiach. Any mohel who performs MbP is a rodef.

I suggest we stop waiting for our leaders to lead and instead use our brains and protect our children from danger.

58

 Apr 04, 2013 at 07:32 PM DyafMaven Says:

Reply to #56  
brachavehatzlocha Says:

What makes you think there are only 1000 brissim a year with MBP? That number is conjured from thin air.

It is commonly practiced in chareidi/yeshivish/chasidish circles, and they give birth to a LOT more than just a 1000 baby boys a year.

it was based on a study to in article yes their are way more brises with MBP every year the article was trying to a prove a point. The article was based on the a yeshivish community not in new york that is all the article says. The article was trying to prove a point more people have MBP done are their babies then people in the Jewish community are aware of and the cases of herpes are rare.

59

 Apr 04, 2013 at 11:52 PM jack-l Says:

times have changed... bugs and viruses have evolved and the practise of medicine has progressed. We dont use blood letting leaches or bainkes anymore and a real rov will defer to his doctor. for medical advice. eg cardiologist , proctologist, urologist.or heaven forbid an oncologist. He will then pray that thsi fellow should be the proper shaliach. He isnt going to eat date pits or almonds.
To ignore what trained medical professionals are saying is pure negligence.
Old habits like mbp or smoking are hard to break but as facts come to light we must act accordingly and change the habits that are life threatening and eating cholent though not so healthy doesnt quite fit that description.
i wonder if the mohel is so gung ho about mbp when the bris is being done to a large non white adult male undergoing conversion.
We all know that some babies have died. the discussion should not be about percentages. The discussion should be how do we avoid hurting another innocent vulnerable yiddishe nishama....starting now .
there isnt anything religious about being stupid.

60

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