Welcome, Guest! - or
Easy to remember!  »  VinNews.com

Jerusalem - Rav Shteinman: No Secular Studies In Haredi Education

Published on: May 7, 2013 01:03 PM
By: Jerusalem Post
Change text size Text Size  
Bookmark and Share

Jerusalem - The spiritual leader of the haredi world, Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman, issued a defiant declaration Monday against the teaching of secular studies in the ultra-Orthodox education system.

In a pronouncement on the front page of haredi daily Yated Neeman, Shteinman said haredi schools would not change their educational approach whatsoever, regardless of any government plans to reform the system.

โ€œThey come to us now to interfere and demand that we change study arrangements by adding more hours of secular studies and threaten us with altering the budgets,โ€ Shteinman wrote.

โ€œIt is incumbent on all principles of haredi schools to unequivocally reject [these proposals], and not change by even a hairโ€™s breadth the educational path which we have received until today,โ€ the rabbi wrote.

Advertisement:

According to a draft of the Economic Arrangements Law โ€“ a government bill presented alongside the budget โ€“ haredi schools will be hit with severe cuts in funding if they do not dedicate a requisite number of hours to core curriculum subjects such as Maths and English.

The large majority of ultra-Orthodox schools teach very little secular studies to male pupils, a fact that has been cited as a major obstacle to the integration of haredi men into the workforce.

These schools teach the study of religious Jewish texts to the exclusion of almost everything else.

Separately, The Jerusalem Post understands that Education Minister Shai Piron has assembled an advisory committee of four ultra-Orthodox activists who have expressed support for reforming the haredi school system.

Piron is seeking input from the committee as to how introducing secular studies into the haredi school system can be achieved, given the intense level of opposition to the notion from its leadership.

Leading ultra-Orthodox rabbis such as Shteinman, see the haredi education system as perhaps the most critical element in the formation of haredi identity, which is why they are so vehemently opposed to outside influence.

The United Torah Judaism party has described Piron as โ€œthe most dangerous man in Israel for the haredimโ€ because of his intention to introduce secular studies such as Math and English into ultra-Orthodox schools.

Content provided as courtesy by The Jerusalem Post


More of today's headlines

New York, NY - Federal prosecutors say a New York City company that advertised debt-settlement services actually defrauded debt-ridden individuals out of millions of... Cleveland, OH - Two neighbors near a Cleveland house where three women were found alive after disappearing a decade ago say police were called twice in recent years to...

 

Total75

Read Comments (75)  —  Post Yours »

1

 May 07, 2013 at 01:12 PM OscarMadison Says:

Math is assur! Science is assur! Let's breed another generation of ignorant, ghetto-dwelling, diaper-throwing parasites who can't provide for themselves, thereby creating facts on the ground that necessitate endless handouts.

2

 May 07, 2013 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:

The idea of secular studies is also referenced in the trust in G-d that goes along with HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. If you ignore the ways of the "secular society" because you think you have it better only in your corner of the realm, you are likely going to miss out on many functional assessments of human development.

It shows many times when I see many jewish people on this site who can not write or speak in disciplined English as well as poor syntax and grammar as well as a lack of fundamental understanding of many reasonable interviewing techniques that are developed along the way as we take classes like math and science.

I am very disappointed in this "mindset".

3

 May 07, 2013 at 01:26 PM Maven Says:

Now is the time for ALL Charedi Jews to come to the recognition how many previous Gedolim paskend that it is not allowed to take any founding for mosdos from the Israeli government.One of their reasons was becuase the government has no interest what so ever to in helping Jews educating boys/girls to a full torah education.If they give money they have their reasons and in end they will demand what the curriculum should be.And so we see it now that those mosdos who didn't take any money have no problems now and those who couldn't resist the temptation of money are in big trouble fighting with the government not to mix in what they should teach.
How correct was the great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis in 1978 when he established the Keren Hatzolah found where every year they send like four to five Million dollars to the over 100 Mosdos in Israel where it helps them a bit but also shows support that we Jews worldwide are with them.
Charedi Jews,Open your eyes.

4

 May 07, 2013 at 01:40 PM SandmanNY Says:

There is simply no way that a large segment of the populace (the chareidim) can co-exist with others when they are confined to a mental shtetl of ignorance and institutional poverty. Zos Torah?

5

 May 07, 2013 at 01:48 PM yonasonw Says:

We Chareidim don't need no secular education...let the hilonim and the goyim be the doctors, lawyers, accountants, psychologists, nurses, architects, detectives, meterologists, engineers, pilots, army officers, city planners, legislators, actuarials, insurance agents, real estate professionals, computer scientists, mathematicians, chemists, research biologists, judges, hospital administrators, etc., etc., etc.

6

 May 07, 2013 at 02:00 PM MoisheL Says:

what are the four men thing they are charedi but still agreed to the goverment about secular curriculum!

LETS JUST HAVE MOSHIACH NOW!

BTW: Anonymous sounds like you arguing with Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman is that what you meant? (Maths & English is maybe Okay but they are forcing the Charedim to use their curriculum) they are turning the country upside down with makeing the kosel mixed and the army. The last thing you should do is agree with what they are doing!

7

 May 07, 2013 at 02:17 PM proud-mo-israeli Says:

& so another generation of Jews are condemned to lifelong ignorance & poverty.
Brothers! Rise Up & shake off the shackles of being kept in the dark both in terms of education & poverty!
Don't you see that the only reason they are forbidding education is to keep you indebted to them forever!
Go & Learn!
Go & work!
Go & serve Am Yisrael in Tzahal!

8

 May 07, 2013 at 02:20 PM Professor Says:

I cannot ubderstand, how is it that you can take money with conditions attached. Yet not meet them. And when the money is withdrawn you complain.
Dont teach secular studies and dont ask me to pay for it.

9

 May 07, 2013 at 02:23 PM Joe Dorito Says:

Think About It Can You Picture This Scene?
"Every Frum Boy Going To The Israeli Army"
Can You?
No! Good I Also Can't
Well Maybe 100,000 Frum Men Sitting In Jail Because They Sent Their Sons To Jail?
Also Not? Funny!
What Do The Israeli Government Wan't?

What About The Kosel Becoming Mixed! Soon Netanyahu Will Wan't To Make His Home Their So He Will Move It!

The Last Prime Minister To Try And Send All The Bochurim To The Army Is Still In A Coma Because He Got A Threat From Sephardic Rabbi!

10

 May 07, 2013 at 02:24 PM ALTERG Says:

Reply to #3  
Maven Says:

Now is the time for ALL Charedi Jews to come to the recognition how many previous Gedolim paskend that it is not allowed to take any founding for mosdos from the Israeli government.One of their reasons was becuase the government has no interest what so ever to in helping Jews educating boys/girls to a full torah education.If they give money they have their reasons and in end they will demand what the curriculum should be.And so we see it now that those mosdos who didn't take any money have no problems now and those who couldn't resist the temptation of money are in big trouble fighting with the government not to mix in what they should teach.
How correct was the great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis in 1978 when he established the Keren Hatzolah found where every year they send like four to five Million dollars to the over 100 Mosdos in Israel where it helps them a bit but also shows support that we Jews worldwide are with them.
Charedi Jews,Open your eyes.

Very good nothing to add. finally rav steinman who use to be very lefty before (he gave a hater for the tumna nachal chareidy) figure out already thet the zionisom is just here to go against jews & against the torah

11

 May 07, 2013 at 02:43 PM jackr Says:

I agree with you 100%. Not one penny of Israeli money whould go to any Chareidim in Israel if they do not serve the Klal in a way that can be understood by those they are living with. Rav Shteiman's decree Assurring any change in the Israeli education system and all of you who are advocating (like the Satmar rebbe )to not take money from the Government, will let the burden of finances fall on the Chareidi world in Chutz LaAretz, basically those of you in the US who support the notion. Let me hear from all you hard working Chareidim in Willy, Boro Park and Monsey, is that where you are going to send your Maiser money in order to prevent some young Israeli Chareidi from learning Math? All of you in Lakewood, are you prepared to share your Section 8 money with the Chevra in Bnei Brak who refuse to learn English so that one day they can possibly get a job? If they refuse to educate their children (which should be a parents responsibility in order to provide Parnassah for their family) should the burden fall on the Chareidi world outside of Eretz Yisrael?

12

 May 07, 2013 at 03:00 PM Challenger to Satmar Mavin Says:

Reply to #3  
Maven Says:

Now is the time for ALL Charedi Jews to come to the recognition how many previous Gedolim paskend that it is not allowed to take any founding for mosdos from the Israeli government.One of their reasons was becuase the government has no interest what so ever to in helping Jews educating boys/girls to a full torah education.If they give money they have their reasons and in end they will demand what the curriculum should be.And so we see it now that those mosdos who didn't take any money have no problems now and those who couldn't resist the temptation of money are in big trouble fighting with the government not to mix in what they should teach.
How correct was the great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis in 1978 when he established the Keren Hatzolah found where every year they send like four to five Million dollars to the over 100 Mosdos in Israel where it helps them a bit but also shows support that we Jews worldwide are with them.
Charedi Jews,Open your eyes.

What is 5 million dollars. Bubbkas!

Now, Tell me how much you receive from the Government just for Williamsburg Schools. $100 Million? How much for Monroe? Otherwise, you could not afford to pay real tuition. Why does Williamsburg have the lowest Tuition in the World? Because of your big Rabbis (dead and alive) Zechusim?

People like you that speak this way are hypocrites, charlatans and fraudulent. Please post how many people in Willy and Monroe are, fraudulently, receiving food stamps, section 8, medicaid, vouchers, lunch programs. Please post all the Mosdos and public serving non-profit organizations are receiving funding fraudulently and deceptively. Please post how many of your Satmar people are sitting in jail for financial fraud. Should I start listing names?


Go tell the world that great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis did not know this. If they did not know, then they were Naive and in-appropriate to be Manhigim. If they did know, then ask the question and get true answers. I think the other GEDOLIM (who you want to besmirch) knew all this and were more truthful as to the situation and were not Naรฏve.

Please, do not be Naive - pat yourself on the back for being Satmar - and try to make the rest of us feel on the wrong side. Did you possibly get your approach from you Rebbes? Please respond.

13

 May 07, 2013 at 03:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Maven Says:

Now is the time for ALL Charedi Jews to come to the recognition how many previous Gedolim paskend that it is not allowed to take any founding for mosdos from the Israeli government.One of their reasons was becuase the government has no interest what so ever to in helping Jews educating boys/girls to a full torah education.If they give money they have their reasons and in end they will demand what the curriculum should be.And so we see it now that those mosdos who didn't take any money have no problems now and those who couldn't resist the temptation of money are in big trouble fighting with the government not to mix in what they should teach.
How correct was the great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis in 1978 when he established the Keren Hatzolah found where every year they send like four to five Million dollars to the over 100 Mosdos in Israel where it helps them a bit but also shows support that we Jews worldwide are with them.
Charedi Jews,Open your eyes.

You seem to just trump up your Great Rebbes Shita. As to the real problem you could not care less. Let them all go to jail and be a total waste - just to proclaim you are right - thats called the Yatzer Horo of Netzcohon - .

Go learn Mussar and become a real Yiras Shomyem - instead of being a monkey.

Darwin made Monkeys into people. Your Chassidus makes people into Monkeys.

Both are wrong.

14

 May 07, 2013 at 03:08 PM georgewashingtonbridge Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

The idea of secular studies is also referenced in the trust in G-d that goes along with HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. If you ignore the ways of the "secular society" because you think you have it better only in your corner of the realm, you are likely going to miss out on many functional assessments of human development.

It shows many times when I see many jewish people on this site who can not write or speak in disciplined English as well as poor syntax and grammar as well as a lack of fundamental understanding of many reasonable interviewing techniques that are developed along the way as we take classes like math and science.

I am very disappointed in this "mindset".

Some religious and even chareidi Jews know to capitalize the word "Jewish" as well as to avoid run-on sentences which not only lose the attention of the reader as they plod on through numerous noun and verb phrases but also accentuate the fact that the speakers are mostly interested in hearing their own voices rather than getting input from a wide range of co-religionists which might have led to increased awareness and understand of alternate viewpoints without necessarily agreeing to any palpable extent with those positions possibly leading to increased achdus.

Not.

15

 May 07, 2013 at 03:10 PM wsbrgh Says:

The Rambam, in Hilchos Kiddush HaChodesh, made simple-to-use tables for people ignorant of basic astronomy, calculus, and trigonometry so that they wouldn't have to break away from Torah study for too long.

16

 May 07, 2013 at 03:14 PM bewhiskered Says:

"The spiritual leader of the haredi world, Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman, issued a defiant declaration Monday against the teaching of secular studies in the ultra-Orthodox education system."

Without question, in the last 50 years there has never been a greater ื’ื“ื•ืœ ื”ื“ื•ืจ (including Rav Shteinman with all due respect) than ืจื‘ ืžืฉื” ืคื™ื™ื ืฉื˜ื™ื™ืŸ ื–ืฆื•ืง"ืœ, who never complained about the ื‘ื—ื•ืจื™ื of MTJ taking Regents, SAT's, or attending evening sessions at CCNY, Brooklyn College, etc. Yet, today the ื—ืจื“ื™ mindset is "Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the Frumest of them all?"

Years ago, Rabbi Norman Lamm of YU referred to the world of non working ื—ืจื“ื™ื as 'cavemen,' for which he received a deluge of criticism (Rav Elya Svei even publicly referred to Lamm as a ืฉื•ื ื ื™ืฉืจืืœ for this statement). But now, years later, it appears that Lamm was not that far from the truth.

Originally, men had the ืงืœืœื” of ื‘ื–ืขืช ืืคื™ืš ืชืื›ืœ ืœื—ื, and women had their own of ื‘ืขืฆื‘ ืชืœื“ื™ ื‘ื ื™ื. Now, it seems that the poor women have both!

17

 May 07, 2013 at 03:16 PM allmark Says:

Reply to #3  
Maven Says:

Now is the time for ALL Charedi Jews to come to the recognition how many previous Gedolim paskend that it is not allowed to take any founding for mosdos from the Israeli government.One of their reasons was becuase the government has no interest what so ever to in helping Jews educating boys/girls to a full torah education.If they give money they have their reasons and in end they will demand what the curriculum should be.And so we see it now that those mosdos who didn't take any money have no problems now and those who couldn't resist the temptation of money are in big trouble fighting with the government not to mix in what they should teach.
How correct was the great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis in 1978 when he established the Keren Hatzolah found where every year they send like four to five Million dollars to the over 100 Mosdos in Israel where it helps them a bit but also shows support that we Jews worldwide are with them.
Charedi Jews,Open your eyes.

Forgive me for pointing out that your comment has many grammatical and spelling errors and is evidence of an inadequate secular education.

19

 May 07, 2013 at 03:18 PM LakewoodJew Says:

Reply to #3. You are sadly an uneducated boor who for a few reasons. First of all your English is horrible and secondly you praise the Satmar Rav who is responsible for a tremendous amount of Sinas Chinam and the horrible state that Satmar Jews find themselves today. I am disgusted by the so-called Chasidim and Chareidim who do not represent anything close to Judaism. I challenge anyone to tell me in what way has the modern Chareidi movement made anyone proud to be Jewish.

20

 May 07, 2013 at 03:28 PM chosid Says:

This has nothing to do with secular education and everything to do with the secular authorities interfering in religious matters. In the US this manifests itself with the bris. In E"Y it manifests itself as "shivuyon bnetel" and chinuch. They have no business getting involved in our internal affairs. May Hashem give the Rov and all yiden the koach to stand up to the pressure of the government.

21

 May 07, 2013 at 03:30 PM getitright Says:

to comments 1, 2, and 4 and to similar ones that follow.
understand that Rabbi Steinman is saying the following- do not allow the secular government to determine the Jewish curriculum.

period.

should they need assistance in how to educate their children they can come learn from us- meaning the irreligious can come learn from the religious. we have more experience.

our children do not do what their children do- all agree to that,

as far as secular education - to my knowledge many religious jews have learned and excelled in all subject matters that were of interest to them.

religious Jews do not consider math and science absolutely secular on the contrary we utilize similar areas of knowledge for understanding many areas of our learning.

we do not have anything against knowledge.

we have an issue with those who want us to be like them because they think we need to be what they want us to be....

22

 May 07, 2013 at 03:34 PM Shmilfke Says:

Learning basic math, science and life skills will keep MORE Yidden on the derech and let many people earn a respectable livelihood and not have to schnor and steal in order to get by.
Giving children a math education will give them the option to work, if they choose that path. As of now, the only path other than lifelong Kollel is lifelong bum tuna beigel! Why shouldn't Chareidi children have the option to become something other than a tuna beigel!!

What have we sunk to? In Europe, where Rav Shteinman himself is from, everybody worked!

23

 May 07, 2013 at 03:45 PM Chaim Says:

If you don't want to follow the dictates of the education ministry, don't take the government money. It seems sad to me that Haredi want to continue to live in poverty, surviving on tzedakah and government welfare, rather than learn to provide for themselves and their families.

24

 May 07, 2013 at 03:46 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #5  
yonasonw Says:

We Chareidim don't need no secular education...let the hilonim and the goyim be the doctors, lawyers, accountants, psychologists, nurses, architects, detectives, meterologists, engineers, pilots, army officers, city planners, legislators, actuarials, insurance agents, real estate professionals, computer scientists, mathematicians, chemists, research biologists, judges, hospital administrators, etc., etc., etc.

"We Chareidim don't need no secular education..."

Yes, the way you put it sums it up perfectly!

25

 May 07, 2013 at 03:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
georgewashingtonbridge Says:

Some religious and even chareidi Jews know to capitalize the word "Jewish" as well as to avoid run-on sentences which not only lose the attention of the reader as they plod on through numerous noun and verb phrases but also accentuate the fact that the speakers are mostly interested in hearing their own voices rather than getting input from a wide range of co-religionists which might have led to increased awareness and understand of alternate viewpoints without necessarily agreeing to any palpable extent with those positions possibly leading to increased achdus.

Not.

Please try not to jump off that bridge you are fastening with your fulcrum of incessant goat herding.

26

 May 07, 2013 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
georgewashingtonbridge Says:

Some religious and even chareidi Jews know to capitalize the word "Jewish" as well as to avoid run-on sentences which not only lose the attention of the reader as they plod on through numerous noun and verb phrases but also accentuate the fact that the speakers are mostly interested in hearing their own voices rather than getting input from a wide range of co-religionists which might have led to increased awareness and understand of alternate viewpoints without necessarily agreeing to any palpable extent with those positions possibly leading to increased achdus.

Not.

The problem with learning "secular" subjects is that it eventually teaches you to think. And that interferes with non-directional rabbinic 'edicts'. A rabbi unquestioned is the best thing for a gratuitous impermeable fence of uncalculated threats to the common man.

27

 May 07, 2013 at 04:02 PM commonsense18 Says:

Next time Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman needs a doctor - send him to a Talmud chachum. Let's see how fast he recovers.

28

 May 07, 2013 at 04:05 PM chosid Says:

Reply to #8  
Professor Says:

I cannot ubderstand, how is it that you can take money with conditions attached. Yet not meet them. And when the money is withdrawn you complain.
Dont teach secular studies and dont ask me to pay for it.

They pay taxes. That's how.

29

 May 07, 2013 at 04:08 PM AlterHacker Says:

HoRav Shteinman is a Tzadik and he is presenting Daas Torah.

30

 May 07, 2013 at 04:09 PM clear-thinker Says:

Reply to #15  
wsbrgh Says:

The Rambam, in Hilchos Kiddush HaChodesh, made simple-to-use tables for people ignorant of basic astronomy, calculus, and trigonometry so that they wouldn't have to break away from Torah study for too long.

So the Rambam understood astronomy, calculus and trigonometry! According to some above that alone is enough to declare him not frum enough for Chareidim living in Israel, Brooklyn, etc. etc.

31

 May 07, 2013 at 04:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
jackr Says:

I agree with you 100%. Not one penny of Israeli money whould go to any Chareidim in Israel if they do not serve the Klal in a way that can be understood by those they are living with. Rav Shteiman's decree Assurring any change in the Israeli education system and all of you who are advocating (like the Satmar rebbe )to not take money from the Government, will let the burden of finances fall on the Chareidi world in Chutz LaAretz, basically those of you in the US who support the notion. Let me hear from all you hard working Chareidim in Willy, Boro Park and Monsey, is that where you are going to send your Maiser money in order to prevent some young Israeli Chareidi from learning Math? All of you in Lakewood, are you prepared to share your Section 8 money with the Chevra in Bnei Brak who refuse to learn English so that one day they can possibly get a job? If they refuse to educate their children (which should be a parents responsibility in order to provide Parnassah for their family) should the burden fall on the Chareidi world outside of Eretz Yisrael?

When the government decides not to tax the Charedim, then they can decide not to give them back their own money in the form of government services.

32

 May 07, 2013 at 04:20 PM BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Reply to #22  
Shmilfke Says:

Learning basic math, science and life skills will keep MORE Yidden on the derech and let many people earn a respectable livelihood and not have to schnor and steal in order to get by.
Giving children a math education will give them the option to work, if they choose that path. As of now, the only path other than lifelong Kollel is lifelong bum tuna beigel! Why shouldn't Chareidi children have the option to become something other than a tuna beigel!!

What have we sunk to? In Europe, where Rav Shteinman himself is from, everybody worked!

What's a tuna beigel mean?

33

 May 07, 2013 at 04:25 PM grandpajoe Says:

If one doesn't learn secular subjects how is one supposed to make a living ?

34

 May 07, 2013 at 04:27 PM seagul47 Says:

Remember that there is a difference between Israel and the diaspora (gola).

In the US etc. a certain level of limudei chol has always been entirely acceptable.

In Israel, the old arguments of Eastern Europe and the "Old Yishuv" still persist.

Not to forget, we must add the continuing animosity of the frum by certain elements (Lapid's father, the old Meretz/Mapam) and the kulterkampf that has existed in Israel for decades.

So, even if it may be a good idea to give a certain modicum of secular education (I don't want to go into what is enough or not), the moment it is proposed, especially at the same time as proposing compulsory service/draft for Yeshiva bochurim, makes for a toxic mixture.

Also please note that Lapid did not finish high school and had a patsy job in the army (not a fighting unit) [correct me if I'm wrong on that]

35

 May 07, 2013 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:

No secular studies leaves you qualified at best, for nothing more than a dead end job, or no job at all, ergo, perpetual poverty . No surprise that we are witnessing generation after generation, subsisting on handouts. Just try davening Shachris in any shul in Flatbush. The mishulachim from EY are getting younger and younger. There is actually a father-son team that comes around.

36

 May 07, 2013 at 04:30 PM ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

Reply to #9  
Joe Dorito Says:

Think About It Can You Picture This Scene?
"Every Frum Boy Going To The Israeli Army"
Can You?
No! Good I Also Can't
Well Maybe 100,000 Frum Men Sitting In Jail Because They Sent Their Sons To Jail?
Also Not? Funny!
What Do The Israeli Government Wan't?

What About The Kosel Becoming Mixed! Soon Netanyahu Will Wan't To Make His Home Their So He Will Move It!

The Last Prime Minister To Try And Send All The Bochurim To The Army Is Still In A Coma Because He Got A Threat From Sephardic Rabbi!

No, he is in a coma because he had a stroke.

37

 May 07, 2013 at 04:31 PM ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

Reply to #9  
Joe Dorito Says:

Think About It Can You Picture This Scene?
"Every Frum Boy Going To The Israeli Army"
Can You?
No! Good I Also Can't
Well Maybe 100,000 Frum Men Sitting In Jail Because They Sent Their Sons To Jail?
Also Not? Funny!
What Do The Israeli Government Wan't?

What About The Kosel Becoming Mixed! Soon Netanyahu Will Wan't To Make His Home Their So He Will Move It!

The Last Prime Minister To Try And Send All The Bochurim To The Army Is Still In A Coma Because He Got A Threat From Sephardic Rabbi!

Oh evil math! Run, Run, there's a multiplication table coming to get me!

38

 May 07, 2013 at 04:32 PM ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

Reply to #9  
Joe Dorito Says:

Think About It Can You Picture This Scene?
"Every Frum Boy Going To The Israeli Army"
Can You?
No! Good I Also Can't
Well Maybe 100,000 Frum Men Sitting In Jail Because They Sent Their Sons To Jail?
Also Not? Funny!
What Do The Israeli Government Wan't?

What About The Kosel Becoming Mixed! Soon Netanyahu Will Wan't To Make His Home Their So He Will Move It!

The Last Prime Minister To Try And Send All The Bochurim To The Army Is Still In A Coma Because He Got A Threat From Sephardic Rabbi!

And yet they have no problem taking secular money to pay for rent and food!

39

 May 07, 2013 at 04:33 PM Butterfly Says:

Then stop sending us your begging letters!!

40

 May 07, 2013 at 05:00 PM sane Says:

I have no problem with Chareid schools with no secular education. However, at the same time, there ought to be a parallel track for those not suited to full time learning (and that is likely the vast majority) where secular subjects and trades are also taught.

41

 May 07, 2013 at 05:01 PM NeveAliza Says:

What about the frum yeshiva high schools in America teaching secular studies? Is Rav Shteinman's pronouncement applicable to them as well? If something is wrong with secular knowledge, it should be osur in all yeshiva's including the US. Will the Rabbonim in the US follow Rav Shteinman's Daas Torah or ignore, I mean, come up with their own Daas Torah on this?

42

 May 07, 2013 at 05:20 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #14  
georgewashingtonbridge Says:

Some religious and even chareidi Jews know to capitalize the word "Jewish" as well as to avoid run-on sentences which not only lose the attention of the reader as they plod on through numerous noun and verb phrases but also accentuate the fact that the speakers are mostly interested in hearing their own voices rather than getting input from a wide range of co-religionists which might have led to increased awareness and understand of alternate viewpoints without necessarily agreeing to any palpable extent with those positions possibly leading to increased achdus.

Not.

The best post I've seen in a long time...makes a good point, and wrly funny too. Thank you GWB

43

 May 07, 2013 at 05:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
bewhiskered Says:

"We Chareidim don't need no secular education..."

Yes, the way you put it sums it up perfectly!

And the rest of #5, do you agree with that too?

44

 May 07, 2013 at 05:22 PM Blah Blah Blah Yachneh! Avraham Blumiel Godlewsky Says:

Reply to #23  
Chaim Says:

If you don't want to follow the dictates of the education ministry, don't take the government money. It seems sad to me that Haredi want to continue to live in poverty, surviving on tzedakah and government welfare, rather than learn to provide for themselves and their families.

Do you think its not sad to Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman that he is a Godel Hador and he is a little more experienced then you!
And he has issued his psak
And some clueless person
(Compared to Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman Chas Vesholom not me)
finds it sad that everyone is listening! (Shame on you)

When you have a problem or in an ais tzoro you dont go to Rav Shai Piron or Harav Hagoen Benjamin Netanyahu

Stick to one Rav don't go mixing! If you have sense you would choose one that has "G-Dly guidance instead of "Gimmels" guidance.
There is not one frum party in the whole cabinet!
they are makeing trouble with Mixing the Kosel - Boys going to the Army - And now School

cant you see where this is heading!

Don't pick a role model which is scared out his wits of Rav Ovadia Yosef's Klolos
Dont Forger Ariel Sharon is still in a coma!

Get some sense before its too late!

45

 May 07, 2013 at 05:25 PM Getzel Finkehhoffer Says:

Reply to #29  
AlterHacker Says:

HoRav Shteinman is a Tzadik and he is presenting Daas Torah.

Keep your Stupid comments to yourself

The bais hamikdash isnt here because of lack of Emunas Chachamim
keep your problems to yourself

46

 May 07, 2013 at 05:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
chosid Says:

This has nothing to do with secular education and everything to do with the secular authorities interfering in religious matters. In the US this manifests itself with the bris. In E"Y it manifests itself as "shivuyon bnetel" and chinuch. They have no business getting involved in our internal affairs. May Hashem give the Rov and all yiden the koach to stand up to the pressure of the government.

Actually, they have every right. If you live in a country, you are expected to meet certain requirements - vaccinations, home and vehicle safety requirements, pet licenses, etc. This is a necessity of living in civilization, as it requires everyone to participate. It is most definitely in the national interest to require residents to have a certain minimal educational level and to study specific important subjects. Once a student graduates, he is free to study what he wants. Is a part of the Chareidi world so scared that the Torah cannot survive math, science or history? The rest of us disagree and find that our understanding of Torah improves when we have better secular knowledge.

47

 May 07, 2013 at 05:30 PM Nebach Clueless Says:

Reply to #30  
clear-thinker Says:

So the Rambam understood astronomy, calculus and trigonometry! According to some above that alone is enough to declare him not frum enough for Chareidim living in Israel, Brooklyn, etc. etc.

Once you know the whole gemora inside out then its time to start all the secular stuff

Fortunatly the rambam did whats right not what "clear thinkers" thought was right for him :-)

48

 May 07, 2013 at 05:32 PM Moses Says:

Reply to #1  
OscarMadison Says:

Math is assur! Science is assur! Let's breed another generation of ignorant, ghetto-dwelling, diaper-throwing parasites who can't provide for themselves, thereby creating facts on the ground that necessitate endless handouts.

To bad. You don't like it! Go back to sleep.

49

 May 07, 2013 at 05:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

No, he is in a coma because he had a stroke.

my foot! trash!
a rav gives a kloloh
and then it happens just by coincidence!
why did he suddenly have a stroke the night after he made the rule?

50

 May 07, 2013 at 05:34 PM Joe Dorito Says:

Reply to #38  
ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

And yet they have no problem taking secular money to pay for rent and food!

they pay TAX!

51

 May 07, 2013 at 05:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
Butterfly Says:

Then stop sending us your begging letters!!

im sure meshulachim are really happy to come to your house collecting!
proper hachnosas orchim guy

52

 May 07, 2013 at 05:50 PM Josh From Krakow Says:

Correct Well Said!

53

 May 07, 2013 at 06:07 PM hashomer Says:

If one reads back all the posts above, there are really only two issues: Charedi fearing forced secular education VS. secular/modern Jews angry about Charedi taking money from secular society but refusing to submit to secular authority. Can the Torah illuminate our teachings on this dichotomy???? If the Torah can, then let's all abide by the ruling. If the Torah dictates only add to the confusion, then go get a secular education immediately!!!

54

 May 07, 2013 at 06:50 PM ATalmud Says:

When I went to Telshe Yeshiva Rav Gifter Z'TL used to say that one who does not go to learn secular studies is like he is over bittul torah! He would frown on those who would skip secular studies and think they are frummer than everyone and went off to learn in the bais hamedrish instead. In fact any Telzer reading this will recall the sign in the high school stating the very line above with Rav Gifter's signature! He used to say that it is irrelevant if you will be a Rosh Yeshiva one day but you must be educated and know the ways of the world! He used to attend every high school graduation and speak with all pride! In my days (this was just 20 years ago) they had a formal graduation and celebrated this with pride. Why is it that all the major yeshivos in the USA such as Torah Vedas, Torah Temima, Chaim Berlin etc have secular studies even though not required? Because they are NORMAL. No one ever said they were doing something wrong!

55

 May 07, 2013 at 07:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

When the government decides not to tax the Charedim, then they can decide not to give them back their own money in the form of government services.

The money they give in taxes pays for their representatives, the streets, buses, security, the firefighters, the police, the army, medical services and WELFARE.
Fine- don't tax the Chareidim but then they cannot have any representatives in the government, cannot use the streets, may never call the police over a "suspicious package", have to have their own army that they train and help to protect the ENTIRE country, and if their house burns down NO ONE will come to help. Even when it burns down whole blocks.
Many of these Chareidim get back in services and welfare more than what they pay in, anyways..

56

 May 07, 2013 at 07:37 PM Barsechel Says:

What about the Rambam - Bartenura - siporno - Abarbanel - all of whom were educated , what is this Taliban mentality does he really think that all chareidim should have zero secular education?
and what about the entire American charedi educated Doctors Lawyers etc who support the entire "charedi" charade in Israel.
As usual we are our greatest enemy by articulating extreme hashkofes - this again is causing a huge pirud amongst chareidim

57

 May 07, 2013 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Avoiding studies of the greater world only ensures your future is not worth much in the tainted eyes of a bad year. But really if you ask me, the challenge for Israel is not to be in vogue with the nations at all, but to lead them. And who will lead the world if you do not know science and math?

58

 May 07, 2013 at 07:49 PM Anonymous Says:

We don't need no secular education
We dont need no Zionist thought control
No dark sarcasm in the Knesset
Netanyahu leave them kids alone

59

 May 07, 2013 at 08:37 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #44  
Blah Blah Blah Yachneh! Avraham Blumiel Godlewsky Says:

Do you think its not sad to Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman that he is a Godel Hador and he is a little more experienced then you!
And he has issued his psak
And some clueless person
(Compared to Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman Chas Vesholom not me)
finds it sad that everyone is listening! (Shame on you)

When you have a problem or in an ais tzoro you dont go to Rav Shai Piron or Harav Hagoen Benjamin Netanyahu

Stick to one Rav don't go mixing! If you have sense you would choose one that has "G-Dly guidance instead of "Gimmels" guidance.
There is not one frum party in the whole cabinet!
they are makeing trouble with Mixing the Kosel - Boys going to the Army - And now School

cant you see where this is heading!

Don't pick a role model which is scared out his wits of Rav Ovadia Yosef's Klolos
Dont Forger Ariel Sharon is still in a coma!

Get some sense before its too late!

Your comment addresses nothing of substance...merely says my rebbe, my rebbe, my rebbe....ย  I'd wager that when you or your loved ones are ill, bl'i eyon hora, that you are thankful that some Yidden get educated and get medical degrees; or, do you look down at them too?

60

 May 07, 2013 at 08:54 PM sane Says:

Reply to #20  
chosid Says:

This has nothing to do with secular education and everything to do with the secular authorities interfering in religious matters. In the US this manifests itself with the bris. In E"Y it manifests itself as "shivuyon bnetel" and chinuch. They have no business getting involved in our internal affairs. May Hashem give the Rov and all yiden the koach to stand up to the pressure of the government.

Actually, in the entire civilized world, education is mandatory. It is the obligation of government to make sure that it has an educated citizenry that will produce productive men and women capable of assuming the responsibilities that ensure the furtherance of the common good of society..

61

 May 07, 2013 at 09:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately, the Zionists are the ones who still wish to shmad the chareidim and turn them into R"L Zionists, and the Rav will obviously not allow that.

If the Zionists were not Zionists, I would imagine that the Rav would have no objection to them learning things for parnassa. But to prevent the Zionists from introducing Avoda Zara and kefira to them, they have to stand firm and disallow any changes by the Zionists.

62

 May 07, 2013 at 09:36 PM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

And the rest of #5, do you agree with that too?

"And the rest of #5, do you agree with that too?โ€

You did not comprehend my post at all, since I did not agree factually and grammatically with the first part of #5, which read, "We Chareidim don't need no secular education."

63

 May 07, 2013 at 09:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

We don't need no secular education
We dont need no Zionist thought control
No dark sarcasm in the Knesset
Netanyahu leave them kids alone

Dry humor spot on

64

 May 07, 2013 at 10:04 PM long island bubby Says:

I cannot accept the concept of keeping children ignorant.
However, if Charedim insist on educating their children in Torah only, that is their choice.
HOWEVER, it is also the right of the government to refuse to support education that does not meet their standards, and the Yeshivot will have to be self-supporting. Right now, people who do not work, who show low incomes get many, many benefits from the government. They get reduced insurance & pharmaceutical co-payments, they get reduced arnona, they get monthly child credits (money put into the individuals bank account) they get reduced mortgage rates, and the list goes on and on. The government has decided "enough". If you chose not to work, fine, but it will not be our responsibility to support your family.
The Israeli government is drowning in red ink. They can no longer support a percentage of the population (that is growing at an enormous rate) that is choosing not to work.
In Israel, unless you are very wealthy, both the Mom & Dad work just to have a lower middle-class life. That is the reality

65

 May 07, 2013 at 10:11 PM Mistahkurtz Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

We don't need no secular education
We dont need no Zionist thought control
No dark sarcasm in the Knesset
Netanyahu leave them kids alone

GEVALD!!! A secular song written by an anti-semite (Roger Waters). Shame on you !!

66

 May 07, 2013 at 11:05 PM thomasjeffersonbridge Says:

Reply to #14  
georgewashingtonbridge Says:

Some religious and even chareidi Jews know to capitalize the word "Jewish" as well as to avoid run-on sentences which not only lose the attention of the reader as they plod on through numerous noun and verb phrases but also accentuate the fact that the speakers are mostly interested in hearing their own voices rather than getting input from a wide range of co-religionists which might have led to increased awareness and understand of alternate viewpoints without necessarily agreeing to any palpable extent with those positions possibly leading to increased achdus.

Not.

You seem to have similar problems with run-on sentences as your predecessor.

Although, I never completed High-School, I am happy that I did not attend either of your yeshivah/schools.

67

 May 07, 2013 at 11:10 PM chosid Says:

Reply to #60  
sane Says:

Actually, in the entire civilized world, education is mandatory. It is the obligation of government to make sure that it has an educated citizenry that will produce productive men and women capable of assuming the responsibilities that ensure the furtherance of the common good of society..

Actually, in the rest of the Western World, education is a right granted to parents to use as they see fit. There are yeshivos in every country where there are Jews that do not teach any secular subjects. Even Europe. And yet it is the "Jewish" medina that is compelling their citizens to violate their conscience.

The anti-frum are very open minded and tolerant, until they encounter a charedi yid who is faithful to the mesorah.

68

 May 07, 2013 at 11:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
Mistahkurtz Says:

GEVALD!!! A secular song written by an anti-semite (Roger Waters). Shame on you !!

Chill out. The sentence of life is too short to worry about the lyrics of a masterful band no matter what their later years may tell us. Good for him. I had a good laugh.

69

 May 08, 2013 at 12:40 AM sane Says:

Reply to #67  
chosid Says:

Actually, in the rest of the Western World, education is a right granted to parents to use as they see fit. There are yeshivos in every country where there are Jews that do not teach any secular subjects. Even Europe. And yet it is the "Jewish" medina that is compelling their citizens to violate their conscience.

The anti-frum are very open minded and tolerant, until they encounter a charedi yid who is faithful to the mesorah.

That is dead wrong.
Every western country mandates an education.

70

 May 08, 2013 at 12:56 AM Bubbkas Says:

Reply to #12  
Challenger to Satmar Mavin Says:

What is 5 million dollars. Bubbkas!

Now, Tell me how much you receive from the Government just for Williamsburg Schools. $100 Million? How much for Monroe? Otherwise, you could not afford to pay real tuition. Why does Williamsburg have the lowest Tuition in the World? Because of your big Rabbis (dead and alive) Zechusim?

People like you that speak this way are hypocrites, charlatans and fraudulent. Please post how many people in Willy and Monroe are, fraudulently, receiving food stamps, section 8, medicaid, vouchers, lunch programs. Please post all the Mosdos and public serving non-profit organizations are receiving funding fraudulently and deceptively. Please post how many of your Satmar people are sitting in jail for financial fraud. Should I start listing names?


Go tell the world that great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis did not know this. If they did not know, then they were Naive and in-appropriate to be Manhigim. If they did know, then ask the question and get true answers. I think the other GEDOLIM (who you want to besmirch) knew all this and were more truthful as to the situation and were not Naรฏve.

Please, do not be Naive - pat yourself on the back for being Satmar - and try to make the rest of us feel on the wrong side. Did you possibly get your approach from you Rebbes? Please respond.

Kudos, to your rationale and great response.

I always wondered why these Pro-Satmar bloggers always blog initially to a news article in self defense of their Rebbeโ€™s opinions but never respond to rationale and intellectual challenges to their written blogs. Whenever there is an Israeli problem that real Gedolim have to be involved, they seem to have an inferior complex and always must defend their Rebbeโ€™s past opinions as always being right when he publicly denounced and denigrated other Gedolims opinions. They will always affix adjectives to the Satmar Rebbe pronouncing him as being a higher level Gadol than his peers. Apparently the other GREAT Gedolim are so Great and at the same time so Humble that they do not necessitate ALWAYS being right in past, present and future tense. This reeks of an entrenched inferior complex.

Need I say more?

71

 May 08, 2013 at 01:01 AM Avi Says:

Reply to #61  
Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately, the Zionists are the ones who still wish to shmad the chareidim and turn them into R"L Zionists, and the Rav will obviously not allow that.

If the Zionists were not Zionists, I would imagine that the Rav would have no objection to them learning things for parnassa. But to prevent the Zionists from introducing Avoda Zara and kefira to them, they have to stand firm and disallow any changes by the Zionists.

It's sad that you don't see the hypocracy of your statement in the light of the fact that so many of you worship a man of flesh and blood.

72

 May 08, 2013 at 01:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #67  
chosid Says:

Actually, in the rest of the Western World, education is a right granted to parents to use as they see fit. There are yeshivos in every country where there are Jews that do not teach any secular subjects. Even Europe. And yet it is the "Jewish" medina that is compelling their citizens to violate their conscience.

The anti-frum are very open minded and tolerant, until they encounter a charedi yid who is faithful to the mesorah.

Not true, in most western countries all educational facilities are required to teach certain core subjects, whether or not they receive government funds. That's certainly the case in America. You may find yeshivot who are breaking the rules, however if they are caught, they will be required to either teach the subjects or close down. Israel has been the exeption to this until now. Please do research on education laws in various western countries.

73

 May 08, 2013 at 09:39 AM FALLSBURGER Says:

Reply to #1  
OscarMadison Says:

Math is assur! Science is assur! Let's breed another generation of ignorant, ghetto-dwelling, diaper-throwing parasites who can't provide for themselves, thereby creating facts on the ground that necessitate endless handouts.

I only attended 6 grades of English studies for not more then 90 minutes a day, with limited math & English, with NO Science studies at all.

I currently own a vibrant company employing 20 people, generating revenues of approx $5,000,000 per year

I also own about $10,000,000 worth of NYC real estate.

Your assertion that not studying secular subjects is the cause of poverty is factually wrong.

I have 5 college educated employees who work for me & earn a fraction of what I earn.

lets hear how successful you are in life, due to the fact that you are highly educated ...

74

 May 08, 2013 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Challenger to Satmar Mavin Says:

What is 5 million dollars. Bubbkas!

Now, Tell me how much you receive from the Government just for Williamsburg Schools. $100 Million? How much for Monroe? Otherwise, you could not afford to pay real tuition. Why does Williamsburg have the lowest Tuition in the World? Because of your big Rabbis (dead and alive) Zechusim?

People like you that speak this way are hypocrites, charlatans and fraudulent. Please post how many people in Willy and Monroe are, fraudulently, receiving food stamps, section 8, medicaid, vouchers, lunch programs. Please post all the Mosdos and public serving non-profit organizations are receiving funding fraudulently and deceptively. Please post how many of your Satmar people are sitting in jail for financial fraud. Should I start listing names?


Go tell the world that great Satmar rebbe z'tl and the Edah Hachareidis did not know this. If they did not know, then they were Naive and in-appropriate to be Manhigim. If they did know, then ask the question and get true answers. I think the other GEDOLIM (who you want to besmirch) knew all this and were more truthful as to the situation and were not Naรฏve.

Please, do not be Naive - pat yourself on the back for being Satmar - and try to make the rest of us feel on the wrong side. Did you possibly get your approach from you Rebbes? Please respond.

In response to you first question , i would say that you are a good student of Der Shturmer, whose mantra was "the bigger the lie, more people will believe it"

I Live in Wmsbg. I B"H don't receive ANY Government aid & in fact pay close to $70,000 in taxes per year,
I have 5 Children in the Satmar mosdos, the Tuition that I am being charged is $300 per month ( I didn't ask for a discount...) which is extremely low.

The reason why the tuition is low is,

1) Due to the fact that a very large percentage of Williamsburg household have large families ,with only the man of the house working, yes I said working, as contrary to what you may think , the majority of Williamsburg residents WORK for a living .....

2) the services provided by Williamsburg Mosdos are less then others

3) The wages of themelamdim & teachers of the williamsburg mosdos are probably lowest anywhere...

4) The affluent Satmar Chassidm subsidize a large part of the budget deficit

The Satmar School System in NYC receives very limited monetary assistance from the Govmnt.

BTW Rubashkin & Madoff are not Satmar

75

 May 08, 2013 at 10:45 AM Sha1om Says:

Reply to #54  
ATalmud Says:

When I went to Telshe Yeshiva Rav Gifter Z'TL used to say that one who does not go to learn secular studies is like he is over bittul torah! He would frown on those who would skip secular studies and think they are frummer than everyone and went off to learn in the bais hamedrish instead. In fact any Telzer reading this will recall the sign in the high school stating the very line above with Rav Gifter's signature! He used to say that it is irrelevant if you will be a Rosh Yeshiva one day but you must be educated and know the ways of the world! He used to attend every high school graduation and speak with all pride! In my days (this was just 20 years ago) they had a formal graduation and celebrated this with pride. Why is it that all the major yeshivos in the USA such as Torah Vedas, Torah Temima, Chaim Berlin etc have secular studies even though not required? Because they are NORMAL. No one ever said they were doing something wrong!

And yet when my father went to Telshe in the '50s, he had to leave after tenth grade because they wouldn't have let him go on to college. So much for requiring secular studies, eh?

He switched to Torah Vodaas, graduated HS and went on to college while learning in beis medrash for a few more years.

76

 May 08, 2013 at 04:34 PM chosid Says:

Reply to #69  
sane Says:

That is dead wrong.
Every western country mandates an education.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. I am happy to name yeshivos in both the United States and Canada that provide zero secular education to their bochurim.

77

Sign-in to post a comment

Scroll Up
Advertisements:

Sell your scrap gold and broken jewelry and earn hard cash sell gold today!