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Postville, Iowa - Rubashkin Consolidates Hechsher To OU & Rabbi Weissmandl, In A Marketing Move.

Published on: January 1, 2008 11:59 PM
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Pinned News - January 1, 2008

Postville, Iowa - After yesterday’s report on our site, about KAJ’s denial of removing Rubashkin’s hechsher, VIN News receieved the following press release from the Rubashkin company. Their spokeperson also told VIN over the phone that the annoucement will be released to all Jewish newspapers.

“Agriprocessors, one of the world’s largest purveyors of glatt kosher meats, moved this week to consolidate its kashrus supervision behind the Orthodox Union and Rabbi Menachem Meir Weissmandl shlit”a, the Rav of Nitra of Monsey, NY. Rabbi Weissmandl, a well known international authority in kashrus, was appointed three years ago to elevate the standards of kashrus in the whole plant and to specifically certify the production of products under the Supreme Kosher label.

According to Sholom M. Rubashkin, “the company made a marketing decision to expand the certification role of Rabbi Weissmandl to include products manufactured under the Aaron’s Best brand in addition to the longstanding certification by the Orthodox Union.” The combination of the two hechsheirim, explained Rubashkin “will position the plant to be under the strictest kashrus guidelines of the Torah and Chasidic world.”

In making the announcement, the Rubashkin family pledged to continue “to do its utmost to provide consumers with the highest quality products under the strictest kashrus guidelines.” Agriprocessors also expressed its gratitude to Khal Adas Jeshurun for its past certification of products produced buy Agriprocessors.

In accepting an expanding role, Rabbi Weissmandl praised the Rubashkin family “for its uncompromising support for the highest standards of kashrus and for granting supervising rabbonim the full autonomy they need to provide the ultimate kashrus.” Rabbi Weissmandl, son of the legendary hero of hatzoloh in World War II, Rabbi Michoel Ber Weissmandl zt”l, is Rav of the Nitra kehilla in Monsey, the author of many scholarly Torah works on kashrus and other subjects, and a respected authority on glatt kosher and other aspects of kashrus.

The Orthodox Union, now in its second century of service to the Jewish community of North America and beyond, is a world leader in community and synagogue services. Its kosher certification mark, is the world’s most recognized kosher symbol and can be found on over 400,000 products manufactured in 80 countries around the globe.”


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Read Comments (57)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jan 06, 2008 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:

I'm not usually the one to deal with such issues; I have neither the knowledge nor the patience to deal with blind mud-slinging that ultimately happens when discussing these kinds of issues, but here I think I can handle it. Those of who've been duped by Yudel Shain for all these years, and who think that he's some kind of "expert," may think that this (KAJ removing the Hechsher for Aaron's/Rubashkin) gives credence to his years of trying to find dirt on the great Rubashkin family. After all, if the straight-shooting KAJ took off the Hechsher they must've finally seen the errs of their ways, and they've decided to stop putting their name to this "terrible" brand of meat and poultry. But consider this; if there was a real problem would they wait three and half months to terminate the Hechsher? three and a half more months of real problematic meat and poultry? I doubt it. The answer is very simple: follow the money trail, friends.

Ever since KAJ has added their stamp to Empire Rubashkin has not been happy. After all, would you be happy if your chief competitor got the same stamp of approval as you did after years of not being able to, and that keeping them on a lower tier with consumers? I think not. Granted, most Frum people still stay away from Empire because it's been ingrained in their collective consciousness that Empire is Treyf, and no matter how many Shochtim with white beards they advertise as having they still won't get the frum consumer to buy it, but many have overcome the fear of Empire and have crossed the invisible line into Empire. So, ever since that happened there's been bad blood between the two, as can clearly be seen by those of you who bother to read between the lines. This "bad blood" seems to have boiled over now, and the result is the termination of their relationship. That also explains the three and half month waiting period; there seems to be a contract until then.

2

 Jan 06, 2008 at 01:39 PM Anonymous Says:

to anonymous 1:34
It appears that the OU is not the only kashrus body pressuring Agri. KAJ also pressured but got nowhere. Has anyone heard anything else about CHK or others removing their hechsher???

3

 Jan 06, 2008 at 01:37 AM Anonymous Says:

What appears to have happened is Rabbi Weissmandl has decided to allow his Supreme Kosher stamp to appear alongside the OU. Rabbi Weissmandl had long refused to allow this. It seems in return for changing his mind, Rabbi Weissmandl both moves out KAJ and gets more money.

4

 Jan 06, 2008 at 01:34 AM Anonymous Says:

The OU is the only kosher certifying agency that has put any pressure on Rubashkin to comply with humane slaughter law and standards.

5

 Jan 03, 2008 at 03:02 PM CR Says:

I think everyone needs to calm down a bissel.

Agriprocessors is currently carrying the imrimaturs of several kashrus agencies: OU, KAJ, Weissmandl, CHK, Margareten, UMK (any I left out?). Each one of these costs in excess of $100,000 per year. Meanwhile, all of them rely upon the same ShuBi"M at the plant (fixed cost). It makes sense for AP to cut some overhead by removing redundant imprimaturs from its products. Frankly, I am surprised they are only terminating the KAJ; Margareten and CHK are much more "niche" and target far more limited communities.

SaCH; This is a business move to cut costs by trimming overhead. There is no practical difference in Kashrus as Weissmandl has already been running things for a while. The OU mark will be retained as it provides the greatest hechsher visibility and the UMK will continue providing the "fig leaf" for their non-glatt.

6

 Jan 03, 2008 at 08:31 AM english mashgiach Says:

To Millhouse 3.24am

True that in Australia they might shoot all the animals immediately post shechita. This used to be the case in some places in theUK as well due to the over zealousness of the inspectors. This has been stopped in the UK in many of the plants where it was previously done.

This issue was addressed over 100 years ago by Harav Plato zt"l in his sefer "Kuntres Havloas Hadam". He has the signatures of over 400 - yes FOUR HUNDRED -contemporary Rabonim from all over Europe who agree with his work that it is ossur to shoot the animal post shechita. Any places that still have this practice are only bedieved and probably conducting this as a result of Governmental insistence.

I have heard in the name of a prominent Dayan in Antwerp that if shooting must be done then it is necessary to wait at least 90 seconds after the end of the shechita before doing it. In the majority of cases this is never more than a few seconds though, depending on the efficiency of the slaughterman and the care taken by the shochet or mashgiach to prevent this.

At the end of the day, when everything is over commercialised and the bigger the shechita the more money there is to be made, we are going to be left with a situation where kashrus issues have to take a back seat to the the "more important"" matters.

7

 Jan 03, 2008 at 03:59 AM Milhouse Says:

Is Yudel Shain crazy? Is everyone who no longer trusts Rubashkin crazy? Why is everyone who doubts Sholom Rubashkin called crazy?

Yes, Yudel Shain is a crazy person. Poshut kipshuto. Is it possible that everyone who talks against Rubashkin called crazy? Very easily - if no normal people talk against them, then the only ones who do will be crazy.

8

 Jan 03, 2008 at 03:29 AM Milhouse Says:

Stop keeping count of each shochet's kosher/neveila ratio.

Your kosher/neveila ratios are too good. Too much better than the norm at other Heimishe houses. Can it be that your shochtim are THAT much better?


The first line contradicts the second. If you keep count of each shochet's performance, and fire the ones with a higher neveila ratio, then it stands to reason that the ones you keep will be the good ones. So yes, I can well believe that Rubashkin's shochtim are much more skilled than the ones at places that don't measure their performance. Maybe some of this attack is coming from jealousy by inferior shochtim who were fired and want revenge? Or who just can't believe that they really aren't as good as the ones who were kept?

Decades ago I remember the case of a shochet who was much faster than all the other shochtim in town, and they spread rumours that there was something wrong with his shchita, because they couldn't believe that someone could be that much more skilled than them. But every time his work was checked it was 100%. He simply was better than all the other shochtim, and their jealousy didn't add to their reputations.

9

 Jan 03, 2008 at 03:24 AM Milhouse Says:

"I personally observed that when an animal was still very much alive (after shechita) they shot it in the brain right away & it was used as a kosher animal. It is an accepted practice by all rabonim machshirim NOT to use such an animal."

This is simply a lie. There is no such "accepted practise". Every kosher behema in Australia is shot after the shechita, and every rov in Australia, even the most machmir, permits it without any question. You are motzi laaz on an entire country full of Jews, just in order to get at Rubashkin.

Once a kosher shchita has been done on an animal it is dead, and nothing you do to it can make it treif. I don't care if it stands up and dances a hora. It's still dead, and you can shoot it, pull its simonim, or whatever you like.

As for the possibility of shaking off sirchos, the sources you quote are probably talking about a practise that was done for that express purpose. If you're trying to remove sirchos, that's a potential problem. But this is done for a different purpose, not to every animal, and we have no basis for guessing that there might have been a sircha that fell off.

Zebus is a non-issue. There is simply no basis in halacha for this letter of the Chazon Ish, and no hechsher in the world worries about it. A zebu is a cow, just like a black angus or a holstein or a jersey or whatever. If you only want to eat breeds that existed in the Shach's Poland, then you cannot eat any beef, because none of those breeds exist today. What's more, zebus were known in Eretz Yisroel in Chazal's time, and they don't mention anything about a kind of cow that isn't kosher. The CI was simply wrong, and there's no way out of that.

10

 Jan 02, 2008 at 06:29 PM Anonymous Says:

I am out on the field, So know better, I don't work for Rubashkin, NO
Traveling Rabbi Mashgiach

11

 Jan 02, 2008 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Traveling Rabbi Don't you work for Rabbi Wissmandel or Rubashkin????

12

 Jan 02, 2008 at 03:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Ther reason people are upset is probably because they think differently then you. They think KAJ is a very respectful Hashgocho.

13

 Jan 02, 2008 at 03:03 PM Anonymous Says:

This is all Rabbi Mantel's work,

14

 Jan 02, 2008 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Thank you 12:57

I place a phone call to a Vet and am waiting for a call back.

But, in the meanwhile,

Did you notice a couple of tiny problems with this:

Mainly, the idea that we assume the majority of cows are kosher, and we do not assume there are treifos in the ones we are using for bitul, was based upon NATURALLY-OCCURING TREIFOS. However, we now know that there IS, FOR SURE A SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE OF "MAN-MADE-TREIFOS" in the herd.

To my thought, once we know that there is this new factor of "MAN-MADE-TREIFOS" in the herd we can no longer use this heter.

Also, just like we all know that crime statistics are always lower than reality, due to lack of reporting, is it not likely that there are a significant number of DA cows who did not report their procedures to the bookkeeper. (smile)

Also, this concept of a diagonal penetration of the needle, to avoid a direct hole which Lichulai Alma would make a treifa, is problematic. Who is watching the person with the needle or device to make sure it is not going straight in?

Also, this whole teretz, which is halachakly sound, is based upon multiple heterim and Koolos.

True the lumdus is good, I am familiar with most if not all of those mekorim, and ther ARE accurately quoted, and correctly applied, but still is it building c building of cards instead of bricks.

The most important thing stated, which is 100% true, is that it would be a hard job to get this straight.

But not TOO hard. It would simply mean that we would need to have the cows divided. Most larger dairy farms consist of several smaller farms.

I know of one that consists of about 12. As you drive down the road, on each side you see XXXXXX Dairy Farm #1, then XXXXXX Dairy Farm #2, then, XXXXXX Dairy Farm #3, etc., lining both sides of the road for miles.

All we would need to do it say, "lets set aside one farm that does not keep any DA cows at all."
Once an animal has the procedure, it can be shifted to another farm owned by the same company.

So, it is really not the monumental job this statement from the OU makes it sound like.

It can be done.
It should be done.

If it is not done, it reeks of MeVatlin Issure L'Chatchila, which we know is ossur.

I am not paskining that, I am saying it reeks of that.

Who was it that said, "We do not build a Jewish home on heterim"?

We should also not build a kashrus industry on heterim.

Sure, a heter needs to used sometimes "When something happens."
But to set up a string of heterim to permit us to do something L'Chatchila, just makes me uncomfortable.

==== The Vet is calling me back.

I just spoke at length to a vet upstate who takes care of dairy cows. I asked him what the estimated percentages of DA cows are in the NY Dairy herds. HE SAID BETWEEN 15% AND 20% !!!!!

I asked him how many procedures he has done, and he told me thousands.

I asked him how often he goes straight in, and how often he goes in at at angle, explaining the story to him. This was not maisiach l'fee tumo. I told him the "heter thought" of the holes not being lined up, or the hole being originally made at such an angle that it seals immediately.
He said that he wishes he could agree with this, as he knows it would help us, but that it is simply not true.

1)He usually goes in straight enough for there to be no overlaping tissues of those "3 walls"... and

2)The hole can take minutes to close

He said, "It is a real puncture, not a fantasy puncture. It sounds like some well-intended Rabbis TRYING to make something kosher, but they are off base on the procedure. The puncture is real, and does not immediately seal when we pull out. Think about when the last time you had a blood test. The doctor punctured your vein through all those layers of skin. Then he took out a bit of blood, and pulled the needle back out. Your arm did not seal immediately, you likely bled at least a tiny drop before it closed. This is the same thing. I am sorry, I wish I could give you better news."

So, it does sound like Mr. 7:37 was not crazy. The numbers ARE high enough to be a problem, and the procedure is not an innocent instantly sealing procedure.
Treifos are being created, and in sufficient quantities to put those OU heterim in question.

Ooooops. There goes the bitul, and there goes that house of cards. There is no way to justify such a large percentages of treifos.

MAYBE we NEED to separate those cows.

In the meanwhile, Have y'all tasted Soy Milk? I have, it is not that bad. (smile)

15

 Jan 02, 2008 at 02:14 PM Anonymous Says:

As a Rabbi aware what goes on in Kashrus worldwide. It is known that Rabbi Weissmandel's Hechsher is a stronger Hechsher then the KAJ, so it is fair to say that this move by Rubashkin is a step up on Kashrus? So I'm very confused as to why people are so upset about this, in all honesty people should be very happy about this move?

16

 Jan 02, 2008 at 01:29 PM Anonymous Says:

7:37 PM
Thank you very much for the detailed info that I NEVER KNEW BEFORE.

Upon hearing this info, I will make sure NEVER to eat Rubashkin meats. If I must become a vegetarian, I will do that with great pleasure.

17

 Jan 02, 2008 at 12:57 PM Anonymous Says:

from ou.org
As a result of a diet that is heavy in grain, dairy cows sometimes suffer from displaced abomasum (hereafter referred to as “DA” ). This condition signifies that the fourth stomach section – the abomasum – has moved out of position, due to built-up gas or fluid. DA impedes a dairy cow’s maximum functionality, and it is often addressed by veterinary intervention. (See Metabolic Diseases of Dairy Cattle-Displaced Abomasum, BJ Harris and JK Shearer – University of Florida-IFAS Extension.)
Although there are several treatments available to rectify DA, one common treatment involves piercing the three walls of the abomasum by making three unaligned holes, allowing for the release of excess gas when the holes are momentarily aligned. Some poskim have questioned this procedure, suggesting that it might render a cow a tereifah (as a punctured abomasum, or keivah, makes an animal a tereifah – YD 48:1). Other recognized poskim, including those whose opinions are consulted by the accepted national kashrus agencies, have ruled that as a practical matter, there is no concern. Among the arguments for this latter position is that the incisions in the three layers of the abomasum are not aligned, such that there is not a direct puncture flush through the abomasum. Furthermore, the Shach (YD 57:48) rules that an animal of questionable tereifah status can be proven and established to not be a tereifah if it lives for 12 months subsequent to the condition that may render it a tereifah. This may well apply to DA cows, whose halachic status is at worst a questionable one. Some poskim additionally argue for leniency regarding DA cows’ kosher status because the puncture for treatment of DA is totally sealed upon completion of the treatment. (For a complete discussion of the halachic implications of DA treatments, see Rabbi Y. Belsky and Rabbi M. Heinemann in Mesorah v. 10 pp.62-78, Rabbi M. Genack in Tradition 29:2, and Rabbi J.D. Bleich in Contemporary Halachic Problems vol. 5.)
Producers of cholov Yisroel milk are also exposed to the problem of DA cows. Segregating non-DA cows from a herd is an arduous task that requires a large measure of diligence. Mashgichim, veterinarians, farm managers and workers must all be vigilant and cooperate in order to effectively segregate non-DA cows from a large heard.
It must be noted that the halachic status of DA cows is not a very new issue. Surgery on DA cows has been performed for many decades, and prominent poskim (see above) have addressed the issue over the years.
Irrespective of the status of an animal which underwent surgical correction of DA, there is a broader halachic consideration, for an unknown, widely-varying minority ratio of cows in grain-fed herds develops DA, and one needs to question whether or not this divergent minority of DA cows impacts the larger milk supply.
Statistics indicate that 1-9% of cows in a random herd are affected by DA. (Documented mean DA rates are 1.4%-5.8%. See Causes and Prevention of Displaced Abomasum in Dairy Cows, Dr. Randy Shaver – Department of Dairy Science, University of Wisconsin-Madison.) The incidence of DA depends on several factors, including environment and diet, and there is no set method to calculate the DA risk ratio. Research by this author of two farms in one region of Upstate New York indicates that one farm had a 4% population of DA cows, whereas another farm had less than 1%. The overall national average population of DA dairy cows is 4%, but the truth is that the statistical ratio of DA cows in milk herds which factor in for halachic purposes is somewhat less than this figure, as not all DA cows undergo surgery, and many farmers permanently remove DA cows from their herds as a result of such cows’ poor productivity and long-term stability for milking.
How do the above statistics affect the halachic considerations?
On a d’Oraysa (Biblical) level, we hold in all cases that Min b’mino batel b’rov – the status of a mixture of identical objects goes according to the majority. However, when dealing with min b’mino mixtures of liquids, there is a din d’Rabbonon (rabbinic law) which states that the mixture is kosher only if the amount of heter (kosher substance) present is sixty times the amount of issur (non-kosher substance). In cases of safek (doubt) as to whether there is bittul b’shishim (nullification by sixty), we are lenient, as the entire requirement of shishim is d’Rabbonon. (See YD 98:2 and Taz. Ibid. s.k. 3.) In light of the fact that the presence of DA cows in a given herd can vary greatly, such that a random tanker or silo of milk may be assumed to contain less than 1% or up to 9% milk from DA cows, there is a safek of bittul b’shishim, which would permit any milk. Furthermore, even if one were to assume that the average bottle of milk contains 4% milk from DA cows that underwent surgery, the milk would nonetheless be permissible, as there is a machlokes (halachic dispute) as to whether such DA cows are kosher, and since the matter is one of safek, and the need for bittul b’shishim is only d’Rabbonon, the result is that the milk is deemed kosher.
There is a rule that “Kol d’parish mi-ruba parish” – “Anything that separates out (of a series of sources among which the minority are not kosher) is governed by the status of the majority”. Thus, if there are nine kosher butcher shops and one non-kosher butcher shop in a common area, and an unidentified piece of meat that must have come from one of these shops is found in the public market nearby, the meat is deemed kosher, representative of the majority. (YD 110:3) The same logic may apply to milk from herds with DA cows, for even if we assume the worst – that DA cows are definitely tereifos and the DA cow population is spread out evenly at a 4% ratio – milk which is purchased at the consumer level may nonetheless be said to emanate from the majority of cows, which are kosher. Even though every container of milk derives from large dairy silos which contain blends of milk from hundreds or thousands of cows, the rule of kol d’parish may establish that the product before us is considered to be a blend from the (kosher) majority. (Kol d’parish applies when there is a known source of issur – non-kosher substance. Because a definitive presence of DA cows is not known in any given herd, it is reasonable that the simple rule of ‘Azlinan basar ruba’ – ‘We go according to the majority’ (Chulin ibid.) – may apply instead of Kol d’parish. This approach would yield the exact same result in our case as does Kol d’parish.)
There is also a maxim that “Kol kavu’a k’mechtzah al mechtzah dami” – “The fixed presence of a non-kosher substance creates a 50/50 chance (that an unidentified item taken from the source area is non-kosher)”, such that if one were to enter and purchase meat from one of the butcher shops in the above case and not recall in which shop he made his purchase, the meat purchased has a 50% chance of being non-kosher and can therefore not be eaten (YD ibid.). This rule does not apply to milk from DA cows, as it requires that a Yisroel have knowledge of the definite presence of the non-kosher source at the time the purchase was made (in the case of butcher shops) or at the time the milk was extracted (YD 110:5). In the case of DA cows, there is no knowledge on the part of a Yisroel as to a specific cow’s DA status and that it underwent surgery, for such cows are not recognizable, except to veterinarians (who can detect a cow’s DA surgical history based on scar tissue). The inability to identify a specific source of issur precludes the rule of kavua. (Shach ibid. s.k. 28), Furthermore, even if a DA cow would be clearly-identified as such to a mashgiach or Jewish consumer at the time of its milking, the rule of kavua would not apply to the milk when it is drunk, for milk from DA cows would never present itself to the dairy or consumer in its pure, original form. Because the milk of each cow is blended with milk from hundreds or thousands of other cows at the dairy itself, milk from this hypothetical known DA cow would be diluted to the point at which the regular rules of bittul would apply. Therefore, the din of kavua is inapplicable.
What about tereifah non-DA cows? Isn’t there surely a certain proportion of cows among the herds that are tereifos, especially cows with sirchos – lung adhesions – which are common? (Shach s.k. 2 on YD 39:1)
The truth is that even if, upon shechitah, an animal is determined to be a tereifah as a result of sirchos in its lungs, its milk is kosher. (YD 81:2) This is so because of a s’fek s’feika l’kula – a double doubt in favor of leniency – for there are two factors which combine to permit this animal’s milk: 1) There is a chance that the sirchos developed after the animal was milked, such that the sirchos were absent during the milking, which means that the animal and its milk were kosher upon milking. 2) Every time an animal is ruled to be a tereifah due to sirchos, its status as a tereifah is not definitive, as we are not truly expert in sirchos and are therefore strict in determining tereifah status based on them; thus, cases which are deemed non-kosher based on sirchos may actually be inherently kosher. (See YD ibid. Tur ibid. from Rosh, Be’er Hetev ibid. S.k. 8 and Aruch Ha-Shulchan YD 81:27.)
Based on the above, even if every milk cow would be slaughtered and found to be a tereifah due to sirchos, its milk would be permissible (with the possible exception of milk produced within three days of shechitah – see YD ibid.; this would not be a factor, however, in practical dairy situations.)
Furthermore – and this applies to tereifos of all types (such as punctured or missing organs) – the general chezkas kashrus (presumption of kosher status) of all animals (kosher species, of course) allows one to consume milk without concern for the possible presence of tereifos. (See YD 39:2 with Shach s.k. 8.) Unless one has information to counter an animal’s chezkas kashrus, its milk and meat are permissible.
One may think it logical to ask why we don’t take a totally different approach and reason that since a certain percentage (possibly 10% or more) of cows in the general cow population is comprised of tereifos, and since all milk processed in modern dairies is a mixture of the milk of large herds which on average have some tereifos (likely 10% or more, reflective of the general statistics), why not assume that all milk contains an admixture of 10% or more from tereifos? In short, shouldn’t all milk made from mixtures of large herds be assumed to be non-kosher? Should we not assume that 10% or higher of all milk in dairy silos is from tereifos and thereby renders all milk with which it is blended non-kosher?
The Shulchan Aruch and Remo (ibid.) rule otherwise, stating that a mixture of milk from one known tereifah animal and a herd of 60 cows that are assumed to be kosher is permissible; we do not treat the mixture as containing additional tereifah milk from the likely additional percentage of tereifos in the herd. The Shach (ibid. s.k. 6, quoting the Issur V’Heter and Toras Chattas) and the Gro (ibid. s.k. 11) explain that we can assume the balance of animals in the herd to be kosher, as Rov beheimos k’sheiros, and the Sifsei Da’as (ibid. s.k. 6) specifically notes that we do not suspect that the 60 animals presumed to be kosher are possibly really tereifos, as Rov beheimos k’sheiros is the governing principle. The rationale for this is that each animal’s kosher status is established at the time it is milked, prior to the milk from the herd being mixed together. We therefore view each animal at the moment it is milked as kosher, based on Rov beheimos k’sheiros, and its milk is considered to be kosher when it is subsequently blended.
To illustrate this principle, let’s travel back in time to the pre-industrial era, when a glass of milk derived from one cow rather than from a milk mixture of hundreds or thousands of cows. In this scenario, a dairy farmer who regularly drinks the milk of his own herd will likely consume over the course of his lifetime milk from hundreds of cows. Even though we may assume that at least 10% of cows are tereifos, and on a statistical level the farmer must have consumed some milk from tereifos, we do not view it this way from an halachic stance, as Rov beheimos k’sheiros dictates that each cow had kosher status when it was milked; every cow’s kosher status is determined individually, not collectively. So too in the case of contemporary milk production is the kosher status of every cow established when it is milked, regardless of the fact that its milk will be mixed with milk from hundreds or thousands of cows. Halacha does not look at the aggregate milk mixture and proclaim that the mixture is statistically 10% or more from tereifos; rather, the kashrus of the milk mixture is fixed beforehand, for the status of the milk of each cow which contributed to it was established as kosher upon milking. Therefore, the milk of each cow is ruled to be kosher as its exits the cow, and the fact that a given ratio of milk in any mixture may be 10% or more from tereifos is inconsequential from an halachic perspective.

18

 Jan 02, 2008 at 12:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Mantel is an Aish Hoemes, correct ! Dose he have experience in scheichita ? in Kashrus? From where? Lugano Swiss? Can he tell the public what the Kashrus issues are ? With Rubashkin? with Hadar, ? With Glicks? With Geula. ? Welcome

19

 Jan 02, 2008 at 12:40 PM Anonymous Says:

To all of you in the outside world please note that within the KAJ HECHSHEIRIM the Rabonim don't make "DIERACT" monies from the Hasgochos.

They get paid from the Kehila and the Kehila pay them
Thank You

20

 Jan 02, 2008 at 12:23 PM Anonymous Says:

There are many people who compare PETA to the Nazis

21

 Jan 02, 2008 at 11:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Many individuals & rabonim are very disturbed because `"Rabbi Menachem Mayer Weissmandl shelita has undertaken to give a Hashgocha to AGRI plant without realizing the Michol.

I spent 3 days in the plant a few years ago. It is very disturbing that the RUBASHKIN Management, owners & Rabonim machshirim have no interest in having anything more
than basic kashrus standards.

I personally observed that when an animal was still very much alive (after shechita) they shot it in the brain right away & it was used as a kosher animal. It is an accepted practice by all rabonim machshirim NOT to use such an animal.

The system at RUBASHKIN is that nonJews do the physical “neekur” which is then checked by the “mashgiach. The rav hamacher was shown that the mashgiach leneekur physically can’t handle the load and some meat goes by without being checked. He responded “there isn’t enough full time work for 2 people, only for 1 ½ people & we can’t hire a half a person so we’ll leave it with one Mashgiach till there is enough work for two full time people”. Therefore, too often “NONMINUKER” meat is shipped to caterers. Most customers don’t know enough about neekur so they unknowingly use it & don’t complain, so we don’t even become aware of most of the tragic episodes.

A major problem strictly with RUBASHKIN’s beef operation is the following: RUBASHKIN owns the slaughterhouse and doesn’t have sufficient access to get rid of their “treifah” meat competitively. Rubashkin therefore made a deal with ShopRite to take off their hands as much treifah meat as possible, so Rubashkin will give them a special deal on the Kosher AARON’S meat. RUBASHKIN therefore has a tremendous $$$ incentive to designate as much meat as possible as kosher/Glatt versus not kosher etc.

The “system of kashrus” in the RUBASHKIN plant is “Don’t have any system” so it’ll be impossible for anyone to catch & track all of the kashrus problems.

RUBASHKIN commonly switches labels, as it was found on numerous occasions that on top of a nonGlatt label was stuck on a Glatt label, ‘cause they were short for an order. The NonJewish RUBASHKIN truck drivers have in their possession a box of different kosher labels to put on to boxes of meat as per a store’s request.

We are aware that some insignificant improvements were instituted in the Agri plant, e.g. a larger chiller was installed. We must be very astute and realize that we are dealing with individuals who have absolutely no problem in stating an outright lie without blinking. Therefore they will make many false claims, don’t be misled. The statement that Rabbi Weissmandl is not utilizing Lubavitch Shoichtim or that some shochatim wives have shaved their heads (like they do in India) for financial reasons (even if you believe them) etc is all irrelevant to the acceptance of the finished product in a Heimishe home. Don’t be the “nar’esher consumer they cater to.

22

 Jan 02, 2008 at 11:50 AM Oh Really Says:

To Anon 7:37
I wonder how much lies and dis-information you can pack in one post, The story about meat from Urugway the only hechscher that say that you don't have to check the animals for needle marks is Bater Ruv that is the hechscher for Meal Mart, Rabbi Weismandel the Eidah even the Israeli Rabinate all hold you must check because the percentages are anywhere from 12-30 percent, the bater Ruv holds its only 1-2 percent not justfying a seperate mashgiach for that

Get you facts before you mouth off, or for people like you and your so called Rabbi Shain thats not important

23

 Jan 02, 2008 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

The fact that many PETA members ARE a bit overboard, does NOT disqualify their findings!

Sometimes it take the extremists to find what others did not make the efforts to investigate.

The PETA video has been authenticated, and many experts have said it is horrific, and wrong, besides a DEFINITE KASHRUS ISSUE.

If a crazy person sees a car on the street, does that mean the car is not there?!?!

Just giving the old story "PETA" is crazy, does not mean they are wrong.

I love to eat meat, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO EAT MEAT AT THE EXPENSE OF TZAR BAALEI CHAIM.

I would rather have peanut butter for Shabbos than eat meat that is processed the way Rubashkin does it.

On top of it all, they have too many other shailos:

Zebus.
Not checking for penetration of the stomach to relieave pressure.
Keeping track of a shochets record of Nevailos, putting pressure on him to say Kosher.
No mashgichim of the schita

Ripping out the trachea, which someone said they stopped.

Rushing too much

Not allowing the behaima to die before yanking it away.

The list goes on. 7:37 is right.

Except that KAJ dumped Rubashkin, not the other way around.

And in the trade, RUBASHKIN IS KNOWN AS THE MAFIA. They come down heavy handed on any store who has the nerve to try to also carry any other Chassidish Schita. They punish them by missing shipments, or shorting them on orders.

Since many chabad baalei teshuva are under the foolish idea that ONLY Rubashkin is acceptable for them, these stores must carry it. But once they carry it, they find they can't carry other fresh meat.

This is Mafia tactics all the way.
I have heard this personally from buyers in 4 different larger stores. They HATE dealing with Agri, but have no choice. They want to carry the other lines, like Vineland, MealMart and other Alle products, but are not allowed by Agri.

For this alone I would not eat their food. ANY OF THEIR FOOD. I would not even eat a parave product of theirs.

To buy Rubashkin is to help promote immoral behavior.

The fact that MM Weismandl gives them hashgacha, drops him in my eyes.

-----

Also, Mr. Novak of 10:39,
Anyone having the courage to speak out against Rubashkin MUST maintain anonymity, unless he is a wealthy person and can't be hurt. You don't understand whom you are dealing with when you are dealing with Agri processing. I would rather deal with the Italian Mafia.

7:37 was right to keep his name off.

And, everything he wrote is true except that he things Rubashkin dumped KAJ which he has backwards.

24

 Jan 02, 2008 at 10:22 AM Anonymous Says:

I agree with PET 100%!

No seuda is complete without

People Eating Tasty Animals!

25

 Jan 02, 2008 at 10:13 AM Anonymous Says:

To all of you in the outside world please note that within the KAJ HECHSHEIRIM the Rabonim don't make any monies from the Hasgochos or Companies, Caterers etc. The mashgiachim that go out to the field, they get their pay per diem.
About the other labels, that one mentioned at 12:24 A.M., they are still under KAJ. They HIGHLY RESPECT AND ENJOY a wonderful relationship.Should they leave KAJ ever is for the pure terrorist activities that the companies are experiencing, if they can not take it any more they will reluctantly buckle under the pressure. The companies especially those people that were directly involved with setting up productions ENJOYED and RESPECTED AND STILL RESPECTS the KAJ. As of now they are still under the KAJ,and enjoying and RESPECTING the KAJ.
The KAJ runs their Kashrus the way it was meant to be with Pure Das Torah, service to the Klal. The money they charge helps to cover the expenses.
What you are all reading should SCARE YOU ALL!!!!
YES, TERROR DOES WORK, AS WELL AS MONEY.

26

 Jan 02, 2008 at 09:47 AM Anonymous Says:

To the person who suggested we go vegetarian....
I love Beef!!!!!!!
it was put on this world for us to eat.
P.E.T.A. are extremists who believe animals should have equal (if not more) rights than humans.

Don't confuse Kashrus and "vegetarianism", in fact on many occasions it is a Mitzvah to eat beef.

27

 Jan 02, 2008 at 09:32 AM Anonymous Says:

I agree with the anonymous poster of January 1, 2008 7:37 PM.
AgriProcessors is a filthy, dirty, corrupt establishment that needs to clean up it act (with regard to their treatment of the animals, and their treatment of human workers)before it can be considered even remotely kosher.
All the hechshers in the world will not change the fact that its practices are cruel, sloppy, and un-kosher.
Until Rubashkin allows unannounced visits and/or constant video surveillance by the Humane Society and/or PETA, let's not pretend that their problems are "fixed."

J.D.

28

 Jan 02, 2008 at 09:15 AM Anonymous Says:

This is correct.
The KAJ got a new RAV, Rav Yisroel Mantel, who is coming from Europe.
He doesn't know any Chochmos like other American Rabonim, he is an Aish Emes with no political mindset.
A true Daas Torah.

29

 Jan 02, 2008 at 08:54 AM Anonymous Says:

By the way,
The KAJ did have more then one replacement for whatever reason Rav Wisemandel made sure there shouldn't be any cooperation with any of the people thay wanted to put in.
You can ask Rabbi Y. S. of Monsey, which was one of them.

30

 Jan 02, 2008 at 08:51 AM Anonymous Says:

The new KAJ Rav, Rabbi Mantel is new to the United States and to the Kashrus world

31

 Jan 02, 2008 at 08:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Anonymus from 12:24am
You know very well that the KAJ took their Hashgocho off, the reason for the date is that they have alot of labels and packaging which you are very well aware off.

About the other companies you mentioned, everybody knows for which reason it was taken off, the terror the owners went through from somebody.

If it is as you say How come that they didn't advertise only Rubashkin, if this has nothing to do with Kashrus?????

32

 Jan 02, 2008 at 08:47 AM Anonymous Says:

KAJ was a partner in takinig Rabbi maislish for a mashgiach temidi

Fact is Rabbi Weissmandl was in carge of this plant anyway for the past few years.

Rabbi Weissmandl will only use his schochatim and Mashgichim, withe the same standerds he usese for the Supreme label

the KAJ is removed only as od April of 2008

Ever since Rabbi Kohen left the KAJ did not find a replacment who knows the Schechita line

Rabbi Kohen was the one who broth Rabbi Weissmandl in

The KAJ stabed him in the back by taking the hashgocha on Empire and not alowing Rabbi Kohen in, thats where all has started

33

 Jan 02, 2008 at 08:40 AM Koshersticker Rebbeh Says:

If you don't want to eat Rubashkin you'd better stop eating one of the other big names too. They swap product with each other to cover each other's shortfalls.

And if you aren't going to trust the O.U. you'd also better stop eating any processed food made in America because with all the heimesheh hashgachos in the world that candy bar or crackers you just ate had O.U. ingrediants in them and some of those Super Duper High Octane Frummer-then-you hashgachos rely on the O.U. entirely and never see the inside (or outside, for that matter) of any ao the production plants.

Now you know why they are called heimisheh hashgachos. Der Rav hamachshir blaibt in heim.

34

 Jan 02, 2008 at 07:35 AM Anonymous Says:

1) Many of us have come to realize that the PETA people were not just crazy lunatics, but actually reported horrors and awful mistreatment of the animals. Those videos do not lie, and the eye witnesses are not ALL crazy.
-------------------------------
The only bigger lunatics than PETA are people who think PETA isn't a bunch of lunatics. These nuts would make it a crime to eat any animal and want the law to recognize the 'rights' of animals the same as human rights.

35

 Jan 02, 2008 at 01:18 AM Anonymous Says:

The entire hashgocha business stinks. Nobody in Klal Yisroel knows whom to trust anymore.


Everyday there is either a scandal or some type of controversy.


One rabbi drops a company and three hours later there is a different rabbi picking up someone elses problem.


Judiasm is officially a business and not a religion anymore.


Would anyone be surprised if we have all been eating treif all these years from all the meat companies?


Do we have any inkling as to what we really put in our mouth?


How do we really know who is trustworthy? Every kashrus organization says they are better then the next one but we have major problems from top to bottom!


Hashgochos and yeshivas have many similiraties. IT's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY AND NOTHING ELSE.

36

 Jan 02, 2008 at 12:24 AM Anonymous Says:

KAJ Hechsher is removed from 1) Hadar 2) Glicks 3) Gedula 4) Geula

If The removing is not efective before April, this can not be a kashrus matter

Dose anybody belive things became worse recently??

Who from the KAJ was the last 3 years

37

 Jan 01, 2008 at 10:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Mr. Anonymous @ 7:37 pm. You lost all my respect when you did not have the courage to put your name to your diatribe. How dare you pen the word "me" with the names of the other Rabbanim. If you do not have the courage of your convictions, then do not expect much of a following. Lastly you did not read Rabbi Belsky's teshuva to Rabbi Schacter on this milk issue. It was not like you said it was

Alexander Novak

38

 Jan 01, 2008 at 10:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Rubashkin was ordered that he must have a full time, constant Mashgiach Tmidi, type of Hashgocha.

Rubashkins meat store in Borough Park, not only does not have any Mashgiach Tmidi, it has absolutely no Hashgocha at all, whatsoever on the Rubashkin butcher store.

As far as we know, this is the only butcher store in all of Borough Park that has absolutely no Publicly Posted Hashgocha Certificate, at all.

Rubashkin has been ignoring orders, for him to have a proper Mashgiach Tmidi, for the past 58 years, to date.

Someone actually did confront Rabbi Weismandel and asked him how he can be sure that he is getting weismandels meat if Rabbi Weismandel gives no Hashgocha on the Rubashkin Meat Store, at all.

It was before Pesach, so he also asked Rabbi Weismandel if he can consider Weismandels Meat from Rubashkins store to be Kosher Lepesach, if it’s coming from Rubashkins store with absolutely no Publicly Posted Hashgocha Certificate (on the store) at all.

Rabbi Weismandels reply was:

“I don’t give any Hechsher on Rubashkins Store, if you want to be assured that you are getting my Authentic Hechsher and that the store is pesachdik, get it at the Kolel Store instead”

39

 Jan 01, 2008 at 10:13 PM Anonymous Says:

The fact is:
KAJ Rabonim do not make a penny of their Kashrus (from the only Hechshirim like that in the US), the only ones making the money is the Mashgichim on the field or the Kehilah. (The way Kashrus was ment to be)
Their Rabonim, are known to be Erliche people with no self interest.
The only thing is that Rubashkin tried to come out to the public before the KAJ has their adds in the paper tomorow.

40

 Jan 01, 2008 at 09:47 PM Anonymous Says:

The Meat You Thought Was Kosher: A New Look at Agriprocessors

Over the past couple of years, there have been several controversies regarding the Agriprocessors meat packing plant which sells kosher meat under the brand names of Rubashkin’s and Aaron’s Best. These controversies began with a video recorded by a hidden camera placed by the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) and have ranged from accusations of animal cruelty, mistreatment of workers, violations of Federal antitrust legislation by engaging in market segmentation, bribing government inspectors, and the list continues. Yet, despite all of the discussion of wrongdoing, little attention has been paid to actual problems in the kosher status of the animals.

The video clearly shows an employee other than the shochet (slaughterer) grabbing the trachea of the animal and yanking it further out. This procedure has been of concern to halachic deciders for centuries and well before increased modern sensitivities to animal cruelty and has in fact been ruled by several halachic authorities to be forbidden and if performed would actually render the animal not kosher. Furthermore, the video also shows the animal being dropped out of pen onto the floor which creates other halachically questionable situations. Both of these issues relate to the possible presence of sirchos (adhesions) on the lungs of the animal which would need to be inspected by a competent bodek (inspector) later. Should these sirchos fall off, it would be impossible to properly check the animal and hence the animal would not be glatt, if not outright treif (not kosher). will now attempt to present each of these two issues in greater depth. The first procedure — the pulling of the trachea was first specifically addressed in halachic literature by Rabbi David ben Solomon Ibn Avi Zimra (Radbaz) (1479-1573).
The Radbaz is quoted in the Pri Chadash saying “There is a practice in some places ... One seizes the windpipe and yanks it upward with force, and so to the sides and one must do it in a manner that no adhesions are detached in this movement. And this can only be done in a place where they have this practice.”
The concern is echoed in the Simla Chadasha and the Mateh Ephraim. The Simla Chadasha writes: “One should be careful not to leave [the animal] with a non-Jew [in the period] between the ritual slaughtering and [internal] examination without a [Jew] keeping an eye, for perhaps the non-Jew will insert his hand and will detach the adhesions. However, if the non-Jew is accustomed to this [detaching the adhesions manually], [this] animal is in all likelihood prohibited [=non-kosher] even after-the-fact, since it is as if one abolishes the institution of [internal] examination. (The Damesek Eliezer says one should even be concerned with a Jewish butcher if there is even the slightest suspicion about him.)
The most explicit source, however, is the Shaar HaMayim. His basis is the Rashba, who forbids leaving an animal with a non-Jew where it is possible for the non- Jew to insert his hands through the neck and reach the lungs (Teshuvot HaRashba 1:258 and quoted in Beit Yosef Yoreh Deah 39). The Rashba does include that were this done, there is room to allow the meat since perhaps the non-Jew did not actually insert his hand and even if he did, perhaps he did not remove any adhesions. (This is what is known in halacha as a case of two unknown possibilities called a sfek sfeka).
Regarding our procedure, however, the Shaar Hamayim writes:
Don’t respond to me with the Radbaz who mentions a non-Jew pulling the trachea with force and if there were an adhesion it would fall off, since in that case the non-Jew did not insert a knife around the trachea as is done today (and as is seen on the PETA video) and the knife could reach the lungs and the butchers have told us that at times with this procedure pieces of the lung have fallen to the ground. Thus, the Radbaz himself would also not have allowed this procedure. And, we have such a giant as the Rashba who showed his awareness of the lenient opinion and opened for us a way to be stringent, who would lower their head and allow (such a procedure)?
The Shaar HaMayim ends saying that should such a procedure be done, the slaughterer or ritual inspector should deliberately cause a blemish in the animal that would render the animal not kosher (to make sure it is not fed to kosher consumers.)
The second concern of adhesions falling off stems from dropping the animal out of a pen (traditionally shechita is done on the ground). The Siftei Kohen, a commentator on the Shulkhan Arükh known as the Shach writes that one should not even shake an animal (or shake the lungs as was once done in a process called “nanuim”) since we do not know how to properly shake without adhesions falling off (Shach 39:31). Any reasonable person can assume that there is a greater likelihood of adhesions falling off from being dropped from a pen and hitting the ground hard than mere shaking.
Specifically regarding the trachea pull used at the Agriprocessors plant and seen in the PETA video, it is in fact likely that adhesions do fall off. That fact is substantiated not only by our Jewish legal experts, but also by experts in the livestock industry. Dr. Temple Grandin, Assosciate Professor of Livestock Handling and Behavior at Colorado State University wrote to me in a letter that “if the trachea is pulled with sufficient force, it is likely that some of the adhesions may be pulled apart.” With that being the case, according to the Simla Chadasha quoted above, it is as if Agriprocessors has done away with the institution of an internal examination and their meat should be rendered non- kosher.

41

 Jan 01, 2008 at 09:43 PM Anonymous Says:

KAJ did not show any support or defend any of thier own hashgacha practices when Rubashkin was under attack from Peta.
Where was the loyalty then?

42

 Jan 01, 2008 at 09:42 PM Anonymous Says:

To Anon 7:37

Same old tactic: "everyone" knows it but keeps quiet.
Dont insult our inteligence with the "come on, everyones doing it" push.
You sound like a disgruntled employee.

43

 Jan 01, 2008 at 08:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Experts in animal welfare, veterinary medicine, and slaughter systems reviewed the disturbing footage recorded inside the slaughterhouse and noted the following about the abuses documented by PETA:

Cows remained conscious for as long as two minutes after their throats were cut open.
A worker ripped into conscious cows' throats with a metal hook in order to make the bleeding process go faster.
Cows were handled improperly, resulting in fear and stress just prior to slaughter.
Workers removed identification tags by mutilating live cows' ears.
AgriProcessors, the world's largest glatt kosher slaughterhouse, has been ignoring the Jewish commitment to compassion and federal law by mutilating fully conscious animals, shocking them in the face, and slaughtering them in a way that has allowed many to stand and attempt to flee, even minutes after their throats had been slit.

The slaughter of animals certified as kosher is prescribed by Jewish law. The knife used to cut the neck of an animal must be completely free of nicks or imperfections, and it must be razor sharp so that the animal is almost unaware that it has passed through his or her throat. No pressure may be applied to the blade as it is drawn across the animal’s throat, and the major arteries, trachea, and esophagus must all be severed with absolutely no hesitation and with a continuous stroke. One of the five basic disqualifications of shechitah is the tearing of the trachea and esophagus. At AgriProcessors, cows were first cut by the rabbi, but following that procedure by just a few seconds, another worker, not trained in ritual slaughter, tore the esophagus and trachea out of the conscious animal, clearly in violation of both the intent and the letter of kosher law.

Cows and chickens aren't the only ones who are being abused by AgriProcessors. The Jewish newspaper the Forward published an article detailing the horrors of working conditions at the AgriProcessors slaughterhouse, including severe injuries that require amputations, virtually no safety training, frequent verbal harassment, and very low wages.

PETA's undercover investigator became very ill soon after he started working at AgriProcessors (as so many slaughterhouse workers do) as a result of the constant exposure to animals' bodily fluids, extreme temperatures, and other dangerous working conditions.

Every day, hundreds of animals endured unimaginable cruelty at this AgriProcessors slaughterhouse. Maybe after seeing the fear and pain on the faces of the animals on videotape, you will go vegetarian and persuade family and friends to join you.

According to the Forward, in March and September of 2006 the USDA sent the AgriProcessors plant manager a “Letter of Warning” reviewing a series of problems, including: receiving 250 non-compliance records from the United States Department of Agriculture during 2006, five of them for inadequate safeguards against Mad Cow disease, and at least 18 records for fecal matter in the food production area (Including one, on December 26, in which the inspector wrote that during multiple checks of 10 chickens “fecal contamination varied between 70 and 80%.” and another, similar, citation a day later).

44

 Jan 01, 2008 at 08:02 PM Anonymous Says:

There has been wide problems for years at Rubashkins. In Crown heights there are many people who don't eat the Shor habor which is Lubavitch shchita from Ruabshkins as they don't trust Rubashkin.

There seems to be some problem and no one has put a handle on it yet.

45

 Jan 01, 2008 at 07:43 PM Anonymous Says:

I am appalled by this chutzpah. It sounds like Rubashkin didn't like something that KAJ said and drpped them. The problem with todays society is that Hechsherim is too big of a business and if one hechsher drops you, no problem there are twenty more ready to take you on!!! BL'N I ain't eating Rubashkin anymore!!!

46

 Jan 01, 2008 at 07:37 PM Anonymous Says:

I am sad. Instead of working on solving the kashrus issues, they are playing hechsher roulette.

Not that I do not like, or respect Rav Weissmandl, but I believe he MAY be in over his head in this one.

Rubashkin has a bunch of problems including but not limited to:

1) Many of us have come to realize that the PETA people were not just crazy lunatics, but actually reported horrors and awful mistreatment of the animals. Those videos do not lie, and the eye witnesses are not ALL crazy.

2) They are allowing the use of Zebus or "cows" who may be too closely related to them. The Chazon Ish clearly said to avoid Zebus. The Black Angus cows are crossed with and are up to 30% Zebu. So, Rubashkin's statement, "We do not use Zebus, we use Black Angus" does not mean anything!

Unfortunately, Rabbi Weissmandl's record with Zebus is unclear from his work in Uruguay. Many will not eat his Supreme meet from Uruguay.

3) Checking for animals who were made treif previously when they suffered from distended abumassum (sp) where they are treated by the insertion of a needle into the Rumen creating instant and permanent treifos.

Once upon a time, about 20 years ago, it was considered a "Miut ShAyno Motzuy" and ruled that it did not have to be checked for. But, today it is clearly a significant part of the cow population in both dairy and beef cows.

This created a really bad conflict.

Year ago, R Moshe ZT"L wrote a teshuva with a heter to drink "Cholov Stam" based upon the fact that the government kept chazir milk out of the dairy farms. Though not all agreed with his heter, and many were machmir, many did accept this heter, and the OU-D and similar Dairy hechsherim, based upon Cholov Stam were created.

However, this issue of the penetration into the dairy and beef cow with a needle to relieve the pressure creates another issue. Since the animal becomes instantly and permanently trief, to all opinions, including R Belsky, we have a BIGGIE of a problem.

The milk that comes out of a Treif Animal is equally TREIF. Which would create a new problem with Cholov Stam. It may be mutar from R. Moshe's teshuvah, but absolutely TREIF from this new issue.

When this issue was raised 20 years ago or more, the answer we received was the "Miut ShAyno Motzuy" argument. But the same rabbonim clearly agreed that if you handed them milk from one of those cows, it would be clearly treif. No argumenete on that one. They only said that since it was a Miut SheAyno Motzuy, it relieved the farmer from needing to keep records and keep the cows separated, etc., and therefor botal.

However, during the last 20 years, the realities have changed. In many parts of the world, including here in the US, the practice is so common that it certainly is no longer a miut shayno motzuy! Rav Wikler from Kashrus Magazine has frequently said (I have him on tape saying this)that today it is more than 10% of the bovine population.

Now, back for a minute to Uruguay and Rubashkin. If they do not institute a CAREFUL and reliable rule of checking for this, and Rabbi Weissmandl's record is unclear on this, then we can't eat those cows.

So far, only the Nirbartur's hashgacha in Uruguay is checking carefully, from what people are reporting.

Is Yudel Shain crazy? Is everyone who no longer trusts Rubashkin crazy? Why is everyone who doubts Sholom Rubashkin called crazy?

I wonder if Rubashkin is starting to fear that too many people are finally starting to realize that behind all that smoke there must be fire, and using that "smoke screen" to push all the blame for their troubles onto the KAJ.

How is Rabbi Weissmandl going to be able to be more successful than the KAJ?

Why are some of the other organizations quiet?

Because, if we speak openly about the treif problems with the puncturing of the rumen, we will also need to deal with the fact that:

The milk from all these animals is also TREIF. Forgetting the cholov yisroel/cholv stam issue entirely. Milk from these animals who were made treif is 100% treif. Not one drop different from pig's milk.

But, what would this do to these giant kashrus programs: OU-D, OK-D, Star-K-D, Kof-K-D, and DE.

If we admit that this procedure is no longer a miut sheayno motzui they all have a BIG BIG problem.
Besides, the Cholov Yisroel companies would not be able to supply the new need for years. The lawsuits that may begin from contracts which would need to be terminated ... and worse, the problem that so many frum, Shomer Shabbos Jews, Good People, have been in the habit of making light of cholov yisroel, and happily eating all this OU-D stuff.

Will they even listen? Or would advertizing this issue cause them to change from shogeg to mayzid?

That, in my opinion, are a few of the reasons the big boys OU, OK, Kof-K, Star-K, are a bit too quiet.

But, like Watergate, and now maybe Rubashkingate, eventually the truth will get out.

Maybe we need to work on this issue and not sweep it under the carpet, by making it look like it was the KAJ's problem.

Sholom, Rubashkin, you need to do more than kick out the KAJ.

The public needs to see proof that:

You are bodek and animals for these treifos.

You are more careful to keep out animals to closely resembling Zebus.

You have slowed the lines down and are not subjecting these cows to unnecessary tzar.

You welcome PETA to film and publicize what they see, because you have fixed the problem.

BUT, the other issue that NOBODY seems to want to address:

Sholom Rubashin, you need to have your organization cease and desist from unfair marketing tactics. Again no proof, but too many merchants have complained that your organization has pressured them into not carrying Alle's lines. As a mashgiach, I have heard this from too many sources for it to be all smoke.

Sure, no one will come out openly. They are all afraid for their parnasa. Without your products they may as well close their stores. So, they only speak quietly.

Dumping the KAJ, which has been loyal to you for years, just to try to make it look like you are getting "more kosher" is not enough. You need a change in policy.

Some other areas that we do not like:

Lack of sufficient plumbers and seals. I have personally received, when working as a mashgiach, many cases of chickens from Agri with nothing but a label, and not a single tag on a single chicken inside.

You need FRUM Bodkim

Stop keeping count of each shochet's kosher/neveila ratio.

Your kosher/neveila ratios are too good. Too much better than the norm at other Heimishe houses. Can it be that your shochtim are THAT much better?

5,000 to 6,000 volt Cattle prods!

Keeping the shochtim away from home for months at a time.

Are Yehuda Shain, and Rov Wikler and Me, and all who are complaining and all the rest ALL CRAZY?
Do we all have ulterior motives?

47

 Jan 01, 2008 at 07:34 PM Anonymous Says:

This changes nothing. Since he came in 3 years ago, Rabbi weissmandel has been in charge of the Kashrus at Rubashkin. All the others, OU,KAJ, CHK, and Margareten, are window dressing. Either you trust Rabbi Weissmandel and eat the meat or you dont.

48

 Jan 01, 2008 at 06:44 PM Anonymous Says:

I still aint eating Rubashkin.

49

 Jan 01, 2008 at 06:18 PM Anonymous Says:

I guess this means I'm gonna eat Empire. They have the KAJ.

50

 Jan 01, 2008 at 06:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Sad day for kashrus.

51

 Jan 01, 2008 at 06:01 PM Anonymous Says:

I think the KAJ has a very respectful reputation.

52

 Jan 01, 2008 at 05:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Sad to see KAJ remove their hechsher --for whatever reason --I have no clue what I will eat now..

53

 Jan 01, 2008 at 05:52 PM Anonymous Says:

In the Haschacha Business the word Haschacha is the adjective modifying the word business.

54

 Jan 01, 2008 at 05:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Sounds like Rabbi cohen did a good job here exposing them.

55

 Jan 01, 2008 at 05:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Yes KAJ has been removed despite what KAJ says, Rubashkin asked KAJ to remove itself

56

 Jan 01, 2008 at 05:17 PM Anonymous Says:

does this mean KAJ is gone?

what about CHK?

57

 Jan 01, 2008 at 05:14 PM Anonymous Says:

A Chutzpah!!!! taking off KAJ. If anything I think
I would trust KAJ over most of the other hechsherim out there!!! I am very disapointed!!!

58

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