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Jerusalem - Halachic Ruling Says "Smartphones" Don't Need To Be Returned If Found

Published on: July 29, 2013 09:35 AM
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FILE - An ultra Orthodox Jewish man uses his cellular phone along a street in Bnei Brak, near Tel Aviv May 3, 2011.  ReutersFILE - An ultra Orthodox Jewish man uses his cellular phone along a street in Bnei Brak, near Tel Aviv May 3, 2011.  Reuters

Jerusalem - A new Halachic ruling says that, according to the Torah, banned “smartphones” or “non-kosher” phones do not meet the requirements of property that must be returned to its owner, if found.

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YNETnews.com (http://bit.ly/13rqLvx) reports that the ruling, issued by Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, comes after much debate surrounding “thou shalt not steal,” which was sparked when a Bnei Brak bakery saleswoman declined to give back a lost smartphone to its rightful owner.


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1

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:48 AM TunaBeigel Says:

With all do respect, I don't trust any of these Rabbis. They only here one side of the story, usually from agenda motivated individuals. Sadly many of them do not realize, that this area must be left for Rabbis who are more in touch with everyday life.

3

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM Anonymous Says:

How are they not property? They are worth more than a Sheva pruta?!? Just cuz they may be "tumma machines" according to these people, they still are worth something!

5

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:10 AM Happy go lucky Says:

A did they really give such a psak or is it coming from others in their name. B what if you have a filter??

6

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:17 AM lollypop Says:

What els is new? I don't know if I should laugh or cry. #nonsense

7

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:19 AM OscarMadison Says:

Let's see how lawless Rabbis think about the mitzvah of "posessing stolen property", or is the kleptocracy that is Haredi leadership going to continue to assume it's above any and all law of any land in which they dwell? I think we all know the answer to that one, right knuckledraggers?

8

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:22 AM hesder Says:

The next Kol Koreh will be that you should not password-protect your smart phones, so that the finders can keep it AND use it...

9

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:26 AM berelw Says:

how can one bring up children to be well mannered if we/they hear such psak's?
its sad that these rabbonim are out of touch and sadly too radical to be what torah calls darchaseh darki noam vsholom.

i gave up on rabbonim i consult mt shulchan aruch and use common sense with decency...as most rabbonim dont know what that is anymore. what a shame.

10

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:29 AM Avi Says:

It's theft. 100% Assur Min Hatorah.

By his logic, we should simply declare that property owned by Charedim is avodah zarah and simply burn their houses to the ground, as the Torah demands.

11

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:32 AM Yonason_Herschlag Says:

This is ridiculous! There is nothing inherently against halacha in owning and using a phone with an internet connection. Today most torah institutions use the internet. Inside of a phone, it has so many constructive uses for bnei torah. If a few rabbonim find that the spiritual dangers of using such phones outweigh the benefits, they are welcome to impose their bans on those who wish to comply. But for a rabbi to imagine that with a few cosigners their group can impose a ban upon the majority of shomrei shabbas yidden is beyond my comprehension.

I've spoken personally with some of these rabbis, and I was put off by their assumption that I would "obey" them against sane halachic reasoning.

12

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:34 AM get rid of the Taliban Says:

It gets worse & worse. I'm bracing myself for the next insanity.

13

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:35 AM Moone Says:

Are these guys clear minded, or simply irrational extremists?

14

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:36 AM Anonymous Says:

So, another "Rabbi" has issued a mickey mouse psak. I can add the name of Mr. Nissim Karelitz to the ever growing list of so called Rabbis that should be ignored. Amazing how they can change halacha according to their idiotic beliefs.

15

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:41 AM abe12steps Says:

you gotte love it
rabbis making up the rules as they along to suit themselves ,whatajoke

16

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:45 AM Anonymous Says:

Assuming this story is true, which I'm not certain it is, whoever this rav is who made such a psak is a true am ha'ortez. Its not up to each yid to decide whether to return lost property. Its mamash stealing if the owner has not made hefker. These chareidim are really going over the deep end with the assistance of their rabbonim.

17

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Then if you have a valuable that the non-jew or the "not so orthodox" jew finds, he has no obligation to return it to you for he does not agree with your halacha and you basically are declaring war on someone else's well being and possessions. Remind me to leave your earrings in the trash can.

18

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:55 AM Anonymous Says:

We are moving into a new era..... Rabbis without Hashem.

19

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:55 AM Mayer Says:

No problem. If I lose my phone and someone finds it and refuses to return it, I will go to the Zionist police instead and ask them to charge the thief in court. Despite the large numbers of baale teshuva there are today, B"H, what is overlooked in the Haredi community is the equally great numbers of haredim who are leaving the haredi camp and either abandoning Torah and Mitzvos altogether or worse still becoming Mizrochniks. Many of those who leave are revolted by this type of nonsense spouted in the name of "the gedolim". Gedolim is actually the right word to use here because that is exactly what this sort of proclamation is!

20

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:58 AM um..yeah....?........ Says:

I work in sales, and i keep my business contacts on my phone. By this logic somebody should keep my phone with my contacts, destroy my parnassah, put my family in poverty, close the kollel that i founded and single-handedly support, all the yeshivos i support will then get nothing, the kallahs waiting for the weddings i pay for will keep waiting.
Anybody that listens to this psak is min, pure and simple. To listen to this foolishness is to bring destruction upon the charedi klal Yisroel.

21

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:03 AM MAYERFREUND Says:

Accordinf to this psak Lets say I bought a cat (witch is not kosher of course) in my building because of mice and it wanders away there is no obligation to be observe the mitzva of hashovas aviedeh?

22

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM rebbe123 Says:

Reply to #7  
OscarMadison Says:

Let's see how lawless Rabbis think about the mitzvah of "posessing stolen property", or is the kleptocracy that is Haredi leadership going to continue to assume it's above any and all law of any land in which they dwell? I think we all know the answer to that one, right knuckledraggers?

WHO ARE YOU to talk against anyone? YOU admitted that you're a MECHALLEL SHABBAT! ACCORDING TO THE TORAH YOU'RE DISCONNECTED FROM JUDAISM!

23

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:

The problem with these rabbis is that they are damned by their outright hatred and arrogance. This ruling constitutes putting a stumbling block before the blind. This is a very significant Torah violation. This ruling makes the one who loses a smart phone a victim and the sharia law that is being observed is a conflagaration of lies against Torah. Pray for Israel. We need G-dly rabbis more than ever...

24

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:36 AM Gum-Zu-Lechumra Says:

Before you know it someone will come out saying that those who voted for Bayit Yehudi are destined for Gehenom

25

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:37 AM yossele Says:

This is what happens when you don't learn chassidus.

26

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:12 PM sheepheadsbayyid Says:

if I find it can I at least sell it to a none Jew? And if I did who get the profit?

27

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:18 PM NeveAliza Says:

And therefore, since it's not שוה פרוטה - if you see someone with a Smartphone, it is perfectly okay to steal it from him.

28

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:28 PM Rabbi_CS Says:

What about money?

Since people use money to pay for smartphones, then we shouldn't return money either.

29

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:35 PM Skepticalguy Says:

its a mitzvah to ignore "rabbi's" who say it ok to steal

30

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM ChareidiMan Says:

The Ultra Orthodox are creating an embarrassment to the Torah. This non-sense got to stop!

You cannot come up with this BS and expect to be respected! How about if I find keys to a car and the man is a Mechallel Shabbas, can I keep it? How about if I find cigarettes? How about if I find anything, but the man that lost it carried in the Eiruv, but I don't believe in the Eiruv, is that good enough? How about if I find a key to the ladies Mikvah where I know a Single girl will use it to have relations with a single boy

Geez stop it!

31

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:47 PM BarryLS1 Says:

Reply to #22  
rebbe123 Says:

WHO ARE YOU to talk against anyone? YOU admitted that you're a MECHALLEL SHABBAT! ACCORDING TO THE TORAH YOU'RE DISCONNECTED FROM JUDAISM!

I don't know the basis of you comment, but this I can say, so of these people have created another religion with all their Psak's and actions. This is NOT Torah, sothe people creating their own laws are more disconnected from Judaism. G-d help us and forgive us, as they know not what they do. The Chumrah of the month club has become the chumrah of the day club.

32

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:51 PM sceptical Says:

I don't believe the "story" and it is CLEAR this is translated wrongly!!

I will say, after 120, the gonif could shlep the "rov" to the bais din shel ma'ala to testify on his behalf.

33

 Jul 29, 2013 at 01:04 PM Yossi Says:

I really dont understand this Psak Haluche..?
Should a mechalel shabbos come to my door and ask for food for his kids do i have to send him away because he is mechalel shabos.? Of coure NOT because he is a JEW and the torah dosent teach us different..Where does this psak end?
There are many Rabunim who allow Smartphones for business people as long it has a filter...Where did he take this psak from? How can you teach another jew NOT to return someones lost property when the torah instructs us different...I did not see Rashi or all meforshim to make a difference when it comes to Mitzveh Hashuves Avydeh....

34

 Jul 29, 2013 at 01:05 PM sheepheadsbayyid Says:

Reply to #22  
rebbe123 Says:

WHO ARE YOU to talk against anyone? YOU admitted that you're a MECHALLEL SHABBAT! ACCORDING TO THE TORAH YOU'RE DISCONNECTED FROM JUDAISM!

anybody can speak up against stupidity

35

 Jul 29, 2013 at 01:55 PM AlbertEinstein Says:

Please, people. Check the source of this very likely false report. It is Ynet. Enough said.

36

 Jul 29, 2013 at 02:30 PM DavidCohen Says:

1: If it is reported on an Internet site it may, in fact, not be true. As such, don't dismiss Rabbi Karelitz unless you heard him say this stupidity himself. You have a brain, use it.

2: That said, the title "Rabbi" does not imbue any individual with automatic sanity or infallibility. There are indeed lots of Rabbis who say stupid things, which is why we have brains and are supposed to use them.

Bottom line, think for yourself!

37

 Jul 29, 2013 at 02:34 PM Yonason_Herschlag Says:

I haven't seen the ruling, but it probably just means that persons that are stringent upon themselves not to own or use such phones, have no obligation to pick up such a lost phone and attempt to return it, but rather, unlike other found objects, they may just ignore the lost object. Obviously the ruling does not permit the finder to take it for themselves.

My assumption is that their ruling is not connected to the case of the woman who took the phone for herself.

38

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:03 AM Anonymous Says:

These are the rulings for which the State of Israel is paying out millions of dollars in welfare payments.?? Obviously, money not well spent. Hey, steal money from the gov't. Steal phones. The operative word is "steal".

39

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:16 AM Refyok Says:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate in Physics.

40

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

So, another "Rabbi" has issued a mickey mouse psak. I can add the name of Mr. Nissim Karelitz to the ever growing list of so called Rabbis that should be ignored. Amazing how they can change halacha according to their idiotic beliefs.

Be very very careful what you say about these 'Rabbis'. You don't agree bc of where your coming from fine but be careful what you say about them especially a gadol.

41

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:26 PM publicdefender Says:

Just for the record, Rav Karelitz is the chairman of the beis din tzdek of Beni Brak and is the nephew of the Chazzon Ish. With that said lets continue to make fun of him.

42

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

So, another "Rabbi" has issued a mickey mouse psak. I can add the name of Mr. Nissim Karelitz to the ever growing list of so called Rabbis that should be ignored. Amazing how they can change halacha according to their idiotic beliefs.

With his psak Halacha he uses his name, you hide behind anonymous. You are so ignorant to call him Mr instead of Rav. I guarantee you would not do that to the pope.

43

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
um..yeah....?........ Says:

I work in sales, and i keep my business contacts on my phone. By this logic somebody should keep my phone with my contacts, destroy my parnassah, put my family in poverty, close the kollel that i founded and single-handedly support, all the yeshivos i support will then get nothing, the kallahs waiting for the weddings i pay for will keep waiting.
Anybody that listens to this psak is min, pure and simple. To listen to this foolishness is to bring destruction upon the charedi klal Yisroel.

You seem a very bright person. I have a celluar phone and also a computer but I back up all my info. If you lost the phone or it was stolen you seem to imply your who foundation would be destroyed

44

 Jul 29, 2013 at 12:44 PM OscarMadison Says:

Reply to #22  
rebbe123 Says:

WHO ARE YOU to talk against anyone? YOU admitted that you're a MECHALLEL SHABBAT! ACCORDING TO THE TORAH YOU'RE DISCONNECTED FROM JUDAISM!

No, according to your rabbi, I'm not even human. You're a subhuman knuckledragger that thinks it's okay to steal from others if you keep Shabbos. If this is what your Torah teaches you, then you're even less connected to Judaism than I am, you ignorant little toad.

45

 Jul 29, 2013 at 02:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
rebbe123 Says:

WHO ARE YOU to talk against anyone? YOU admitted that you're a MECHALLEL SHABBAT! ACCORDING TO THE TORAH YOU'RE DISCONNECTED FROM JUDAISM!

May you find your way as a jew. Not as a stool pigeon. Your comments to the above commenter were so asinine that I as a jew find you to be a transgressor of the very redemption of Israel. And if you ask me, his business on Sabbath is his own decision and not for you or the public forum to discuss. Perhaps we should see the laundry list of your sins and any repentance you have chosen. Think before you smear Israel.

46

 Jul 29, 2013 at 02:30 PM WiseDude Says:

Taken to its logical conclusion, this is a psak that one does not have to return any "non Kosher" object to its owner. I have never heard anything more absurd and ignorant in a long time.

47

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:05 PM rebbe123 Says:

Reply to #31  
BarryLS1 Says:

I don't know the basis of you comment, but this I can say, so of these people have created another religion with all their Psak's and actions. This is NOT Torah, sothe people creating their own laws are more disconnected from Judaism. G-d help us and forgive us, as they know not what they do. The Chumrah of the month club has become the chumrah of the day club.

Idk the basis of the psak regarding the phones, but are you a rabbi to decide what a rabbi and posek can or can't pasken? Does a posek need permission or advice in halocho from the general public? of course NOT! and if you feel they do need input from ordinary people then i doubt if you're religious at all

48

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:12 PM Sebastion Says:

Reply to #36  
DavidCohen Says:

1: If it is reported on an Internet site it may, in fact, not be true. As such, don't dismiss Rabbi Karelitz unless you heard him say this stupidity himself. You have a brain, use it.

2: That said, the title "Rabbi" does not imbue any individual with automatic sanity or infallibility. There are indeed lots of Rabbis who say stupid things, which is why we have brains and are supposed to use them.

Bottom line, think for yourself!

When are you or any other of the ahm horatzim on this board who know NOTHING going to realize that your insults here mean absolutely nothing as well! You don't begin to grasp what a godol is. You want him to do and say what YOU want him to do and say. But that's not what a rabbi is supposed to do. He is telling you something you don't know. Most of you here know only alef bais, some not even that, some a little more. But you know less than 1% of what Rabbi Karelitz knows. To say that "we have our own brains" is fine when thinking THRU halachas and we may question our rabbis decision and discuss it with HIM, BUT we CANNOT go against it!! As it says in RASH"I in parshas Shoftim. on the posuk, "Loh sosur min haderech etc." if a rabbi says right is right and left is left, you must listen but even if he says left is right and right is left EVEN THEN you MUST listen to his psak. No you and I don't know if even Rabbi Kareletz said this or what he said, how and what he meant etc. But know this he and Rabbi Kaniefsky and others are geniuses in torah and world events. Not people like Sheapsheadbaygoy or other dummys on this board. I don't write often but I will ALWAYS defend Gedolim!

49

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:14 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

May you find your way as a jew. Not as a stool pigeon. Your comments to the above commenter were so asinine that I as a jew find you to be a transgressor of the very redemption of Israel. And if you ask me, his business on Sabbath is his own decision and not for you or the public forum to discuss. Perhaps we should see the laundry list of your sins and any repentance you have chosen. Think before you smear Israel.

You should be smarter then to answer this guy,to me he is a tottal golem has no brain of his own youre talking to the wall tragecally.

50

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:19 PM Mekav Says:

Reply to #41  
publicdefender Says:

Just for the record, Rav Karelitz is the chairman of the beis din tzdek of Beni Brak and is the nephew of the Chazzon Ish. With that said lets continue to make fun of him.

Not sure how his lineage makes any psak he issues more valid. I know plenty of descendents of Tzaddikim who are are non-frum by ANY standards. Not taking a stance on R. Karelitz (don't know anything about him), just stating that yichus means nothing, a person has to stand on their own merits/learning and not genetics.

51

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
OscarMadison Says:

No, according to your rabbi, I'm not even human. You're a subhuman knuckledragger that thinks it's okay to steal from others if you keep Shabbos. If this is what your Torah teaches you, then you're even less connected to Judaism than I am, you ignorant little toad.

You are probably not going to like this, but if you are working on Sabbath to make a buck, you are indeed disconnected from Torah and Jewish Souls. But if you are doing better than that, you are probably not doing horribly bad. And if you ask me, you probably do want to be more dignified in your commentary. There are no subhuman knuckledraggers and it is not nice to call a fraud a toad. Just be nice and fix the problem.

52

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:33 PM NeveAliza Says:

This "psak" is from his sefer חוט שני. The volume is the one dealing with הלכות פסח.
It's the very last item of the sefer on דף שלא. You can download a copy from hebrewbooks.org (page 335 of the pdf file). It's not a new "ruling" so I don't know why it's hitting the fan now.
So no, it wasn't made up by Ynet, and it was indeed translated correctly so those excuses go out the window.

So I will be דן לכף זכות and say that the reason it's in the volume dealing with Pesach is that this particular phone in the שאילה had חמץ in it. That's why it was in a bakery. And because it had חמץ in it it couldn't be returned until AFTER Pesach.
That's the only thing that makes sense.

53

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:35 PM yaaak Says:

There are 5 ways of reacting to this Psak:

a) I agree with the Psak
b) I don't believe the source of the Psak
c) לא ירדתי לסוף דבריו הקדושים
d) b&c (I don't believe it, but if it's true, לא ירדתי לסוף דבריו הקדושים)
e) Whoever made this Psak is an Am Ha'aretz and knows nothing about Torah and doesn't deserve the title "rabbi".

Unfortunately, the majority of commenters here chose "e".

I hope the VIN commenters don't represent כלל ישראל because if they did...
אוי לנו מיום הדין אוי לנו מיום התוכחה

54

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:38 PM Benny Says:

So now one can keep it!

55

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:46 PM daniel000 Says:

All that was stated in the article was that you are not obligated to search for the owner,of course you are forbidden to take it.
In the secular world it is rare to find a individual that would go out of his way to return a lost object and all to often the finder would keep it even if he can return the item.
This discussion just highlights how special frum yidden are as we are the only society that is constantly looking to help a stranger in need,whether its fixing a flat tire or returning a lost object etc...

56

 Jul 29, 2013 at 03:47 PM Yossi Says:

How about i walk in the street and i find an envelope with few thousand dollars of cash and there is a name on the envelope and i know the person to be a mechalel shabbos do i have to return it to its owner.?
I understand the difference is the object not the owner...The Smartphone is the object here in question NOT the owner of the phone.....Because the object is forbidden to carry then it becomes NON returnable to its owner.???
Can anyone here with knowledge on Hilchos hashuves Avydeh please explain this Psak if it has any mekor from the Gemura,meforshim .....
I dont see it being correct and mentchlich but maybe the Poskim do .?

57

 Jul 29, 2013 at 04:04 PM um..... .. yrah ???.. Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

You seem a very bright person. I have a celluar phone and also a computer but I back up all my info. If you lost the phone or it was stolen you seem to imply your who foundation would be destroyed

I actually thought about writing out all the details you mentioned. Then i thought "these people are not morons, they can deduce the topic of a comment without being distracted by irrelevant minutia". I guess i was wrong. So let me explain my point. Cell phone = earning potential, increased earnings = increased tzedukah. I bet you honestly think that i don't back my contacts because i don't have you to tell me to.

58

 Jul 29, 2013 at 04:12 PM Refyok Says:

I assume RNK and his followers will totally understand when other rabbis declare charedism avodah zara gadol worship and assur returning their lost items, giving them tzdakkah and going into their treife shuls.

59

 Jul 29, 2013 at 04:12 PM rebbe123 Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

May you find your way as a jew. Not as a stool pigeon. Your comments to the above commenter were so asinine that I as a jew find you to be a transgressor of the very redemption of Israel. And if you ask me, his business on Sabbath is his own decision and not for you or the public forum to discuss. Perhaps we should see the laundry list of your sins and any repentance you have chosen. Think before you smear Israel.

Did you find the way? I'm do not smear Israel! and there's nothing wrong by smearing the so-called STATE of Israel! besides being a sadistic stalinistic God hating regime! they're a bunch of crooks!

60

 Jul 29, 2013 at 04:57 PM OYVY2 Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

We are moving into a new era..... Rabbis without Hashem.

so right and so sad, what insanity is next

62

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:19 PM migraine Says:

Reply to 53
Well said!

63

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:36 PM A Says:

Reply to #40  
Anonymous Says:

Be very very careful what you say about these 'Rabbis'. You don't agree bc of where your coming from fine but be careful what you say about them especially a gadol.

There seem to be so many of these so-called 'gedolim' around these days, are there any Rabbis out there that are just plain Rabbonim anymore?

I don't see the need to be any more careful talking about them than about any other yid. One should always be cautious and do one's best not to speak lashon hara but I will give the self-proclaimed gedolim no more than that. So far it's been a long long time since I've seen any gadlus from any of them.

64

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:39 PM A Says:

Reply to #41  
publicdefender Says:

Just for the record, Rav Karelitz is the chairman of the beis din tzdek of Beni Brak and is the nephew of the Chazzon Ish. With that said lets continue to make fun of him.

An elected position such as chairman of anything means nothing except popularity. Having a choshuve relative doesn't automatically grant one gadlus status. I've seen the children of great chachomim be the biggest idiots one could imagine.

65

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:46 PM jbaldy22 Says:

@NeveAliza

you misread the psak in the sefer there is a major tnai - the person needs to be chashud that he would use it for a davar assur in order for it not to qualify for hashavas aveida - which is very different than the psak here. The fact that it doesnt require hachraza is a big chiddush to me but it still would not extend to this case because the baalim are known. I doubt that such a psak was given is this case. This sounds made up.

66

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #37  
Yonason_Herschlag Says:

I haven't seen the ruling, but it probably just means that persons that are stringent upon themselves not to own or use such phones, have no obligation to pick up such a lost phone and attempt to return it, but rather, unlike other found objects, they may just ignore the lost object. Obviously the ruling does not permit the finder to take it for themselves.

My assumption is that their ruling is not connected to the case of the woman who took the phone for herself.

Really? There is an obligation in the shulchan aruch to pick up an item from the street, and then go find the owner? I am not allowed to just keep walking by the item?

67

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:50 PM A Says:

Reply to #47  
rebbe123 Says:

Idk the basis of the psak regarding the phones, but are you a rabbi to decide what a rabbi and posek can or can't pasken? Does a posek need permission or advice in halocho from the general public? of course NOT! and if you feel they do need input from ordinary people then i doubt if you're religious at all

They may not need input from what you call ordinary people but maybe they can use a little knowledge about the things they paskin about. Just yesterday I was at a simcha and saw a woman looking at her smartphone during bentshing and realized she was using an app that included a bentsher. I questioned her afterwards and she said the phone had made life much easier for her. She now gets to daven and/or say tehillim on the train on her way to work every morning, she never has to worry that there aren't enough bentshers to go around when she's at a simcha, or that she's left her siddur on the table at home, and she has many other similar advantages of owning this phone. Do these Rabbis have the slightest idea how many yidden are able to enrich their lives with Torah because of these phones? Or do they automatically assume that we use them with pritzus in mind? I don't know but I'm disturbed that they automatically assume the worst of klal yisroel and throw bans about as if they were nothing. It's the lazy way to simply ban something. It takes much learning, work, koach and courage to look at a new problem and say it's okay to make use of it.

68

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:53 PM DanielBarbaz Says:

Once upon a time there was a religion called Judaism. Now it has apparently broken up into many mini- religions.
In years gone by if someone was a Gadol, he was a Gadol. Now unfortunately except for a few exceptions your Gadol is nothing to me and my Gadol is nothing to you. When we don't agree with each other, we resort to name calling and acrimony.

I buess there is no such a thing as a religious person, because we all apparently have different beliefs. I do not think that this is what the avos had in mind.

Given the current mentality, when meshiach comes how will we greet him? If he is not wearing the right Levush will we reject him? Shame on all of us. We miss the forest for the trees. We place value on the worthless. Chaval!!!!!!

69

 Jul 29, 2013 at 06:59 PM A Says:

Reply to #48  
Sebastion Says:

When are you or any other of the ahm horatzim on this board who know NOTHING going to realize that your insults here mean absolutely nothing as well! You don't begin to grasp what a godol is. You want him to do and say what YOU want him to do and say. But that's not what a rabbi is supposed to do. He is telling you something you don't know. Most of you here know only alef bais, some not even that, some a little more. But you know less than 1% of what Rabbi Karelitz knows. To say that "we have our own brains" is fine when thinking THRU halachas and we may question our rabbis decision and discuss it with HIM, BUT we CANNOT go against it!! As it says in RASH"I in parshas Shoftim. on the posuk, "Loh sosur min haderech etc." if a rabbi says right is right and left is left, you must listen but even if he says left is right and right is left EVEN THEN you MUST listen to his psak. No you and I don't know if even Rabbi Kareletz said this or what he said, how and what he meant etc. But know this he and Rabbi Kaniefsky and others are geniuses in torah and world events. Not people like Sheapsheadbaygoy or other dummys on this board. I don't write often but I will ALWAYS defend Gedolim!

The problem, as I see it, is that these days we can't separate the true gedolim from the wannabes. Proclaiming someone is a 'godol' doesn't automatically make him one.

Maybe it's because I'm from an older generation but I see many 'Rebbes' these days that would have been at the bottom of the class if they'd been in a room with the Rebbes I grew up knowing about. (I have to laugh because my tatty, a"h, said the same thing in comparing his generation of Rebbes to mine.) So we end up feeling short-changed when we have seen greatness and now we see something far less.

70

 Jul 29, 2013 at 07:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
rebbe123 Says:

Did you find the way? I'm do not smear Israel! and there's nothing wrong by smearing the so-called STATE of Israel! besides being a sadistic stalinistic God hating regime! they're a bunch of crooks!

G-d is not a god of impartiality. You are attacking the essence of a jew. And if you want to redeem yourself, try limiting your comments to relevant discussion.

71

 Jul 29, 2013 at 07:11 PM DanielBarbaz Says:

Reply to #59  
rebbe123 Says:

Did you find the way? I'm do not smear Israel! and there's nothing wrong by smearing the so-called STATE of Israel! besides being a sadistic stalinistic God hating regime! they're a bunch of crooks!

The "so-called State of Israel" has been providing a haven for Jews since its creation. Perhaps if there had been a "so-called State" for our people to seek refuge during the Shoah, we would not have lost 6,000, 000 of our brethren.
Your acrimony and mean spirited statement, leads me to believe that despite the name you use, you are no rebbe.

72

 Jul 29, 2013 at 07:21 PM Ari Says:

The exception to the psak is if someone finds the iPhone of Rav Amnon Yitzchak...

73

 Jul 29, 2013 at 07:42 PM yoyoyo Says:

Do people still have smartphones? I thought the asife took care of that?

74

 Jul 29, 2013 at 07:54 PM barbaabba Says:

I wonder if the same goes for the one finding the lost "smartphone" if the honorable "Rabbi" when he loses his phone...... if you wonder, "Rabbis" always seem to have a heter to own and use phones they prohibit others from using

75

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Sebastion Says:

When are you or any other of the ahm horatzim on this board who know NOTHING going to realize that your insults here mean absolutely nothing as well! You don't begin to grasp what a godol is. You want him to do and say what YOU want him to do and say. But that's not what a rabbi is supposed to do. He is telling you something you don't know. Most of you here know only alef bais, some not even that, some a little more. But you know less than 1% of what Rabbi Karelitz knows. To say that "we have our own brains" is fine when thinking THRU halachas and we may question our rabbis decision and discuss it with HIM, BUT we CANNOT go against it!! As it says in RASH"I in parshas Shoftim. on the posuk, "Loh sosur min haderech etc." if a rabbi says right is right and left is left, you must listen but even if he says left is right and right is left EVEN THEN you MUST listen to his psak. No you and I don't know if even Rabbi Kareletz said this or what he said, how and what he meant etc. But know this he and Rabbi Kaniefsky and others are geniuses in torah and world events. Not people like Sheapsheadbaygoy or other dummys on this board. I don't write often but I will ALWAYS defend Gedolim!

why stop there?

why not come right out and say it okay to steal people's smartphones?

76

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Sebastion Says:

When are you or any other of the ahm horatzim on this board who know NOTHING going to realize that your insults here mean absolutely nothing as well! You don't begin to grasp what a godol is. You want him to do and say what YOU want him to do and say. But that's not what a rabbi is supposed to do. He is telling you something you don't know. Most of you here know only alef bais, some not even that, some a little more. But you know less than 1% of what Rabbi Karelitz knows. To say that "we have our own brains" is fine when thinking THRU halachas and we may question our rabbis decision and discuss it with HIM, BUT we CANNOT go against it!! As it says in RASH"I in parshas Shoftim. on the posuk, "Loh sosur min haderech etc." if a rabbi says right is right and left is left, you must listen but even if he says left is right and right is left EVEN THEN you MUST listen to his psak. No you and I don't know if even Rabbi Kareletz said this or what he said, how and what he meant etc. But know this he and Rabbi Kaniefsky and others are geniuses in torah and world events. Not people like Sheapsheadbaygoy or other dummys on this board. I don't write often but I will ALWAYS defend Gedolim!

and next, it's okay to set fire to stores that are owned by Jews and are open Shabbos, or sell treif, since you are doing a mitzvah!

77

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Sebastion Says:

When are you or any other of the ahm horatzim on this board who know NOTHING going to realize that your insults here mean absolutely nothing as well! You don't begin to grasp what a godol is. You want him to do and say what YOU want him to do and say. But that's not what a rabbi is supposed to do. He is telling you something you don't know. Most of you here know only alef bais, some not even that, some a little more. But you know less than 1% of what Rabbi Karelitz knows. To say that "we have our own brains" is fine when thinking THRU halachas and we may question our rabbis decision and discuss it with HIM, BUT we CANNOT go against it!! As it says in RASH"I in parshas Shoftim. on the posuk, "Loh sosur min haderech etc." if a rabbi says right is right and left is left, you must listen but even if he says left is right and right is left EVEN THEN you MUST listen to his psak. No you and I don't know if even Rabbi Kareletz said this or what he said, how and what he meant etc. But know this he and Rabbi Kaniefsky and others are geniuses in torah and world events. Not people like Sheapsheadbaygoy or other dummys on this board. I don't write often but I will ALWAYS defend Gedolim!

So basically it appears ossur to open a cell phone store.

why hasn't this been mentioned?

78

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Sebastion Says:

When are you or any other of the ahm horatzim on this board who know NOTHING going to realize that your insults here mean absolutely nothing as well! You don't begin to grasp what a godol is. You want him to do and say what YOU want him to do and say. But that's not what a rabbi is supposed to do. He is telling you something you don't know. Most of you here know only alef bais, some not even that, some a little more. But you know less than 1% of what Rabbi Karelitz knows. To say that "we have our own brains" is fine when thinking THRU halachas and we may question our rabbis decision and discuss it with HIM, BUT we CANNOT go against it!! As it says in RASH"I in parshas Shoftim. on the posuk, "Loh sosur min haderech etc." if a rabbi says right is right and left is left, you must listen but even if he says left is right and right is left EVEN THEN you MUST listen to his psak. No you and I don't know if even Rabbi Kareletz said this or what he said, how and what he meant etc. But know this he and Rabbi Kaniefsky and others are geniuses in torah and world events. Not people like Sheapsheadbaygoy or other dummys on this board. I don't write often but I will ALWAYS defend Gedolim!

what is this psak supposed to accomplish?

It's not as if a person whop loses a cellphone isn't going to go right out and buy another one?

79

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
rebbe123 Says:

WHO ARE YOU to talk against anyone? YOU admitted that you're a MECHALLEL SHABBAT! ACCORDING TO THE TORAH YOU'RE DISCONNECTED FROM JUDAISM!

who are YOU to talk "against" anyone, you fake wannabe rabbi pretender?

who are you to say someone is disclonnected from Judaism?

Stupidity like you and this Rabbi will drive more Jews formOrthodoxy than conservatism and Reform combined.

80

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:20 PM Sebastion Says:

Reply to #69  
A Says:

The problem, as I see it, is that these days we can't separate the true gedolim from the wannabes. Proclaiming someone is a 'godol' doesn't automatically make him one.

Maybe it's because I'm from an older generation but I see many 'Rebbes' these days that would have been at the bottom of the class if they'd been in a room with the Rebbes I grew up knowing about. (I have to laugh because my tatty, a"h, said the same thing in comparing his generation of Rebbes to mine.) So we end up feeling short-changed when we have seen greatness and now we see something far less.

However Hashem himself says in the Torah that we should listen to the "kohanim i.e. gedolim who live in "YOUR day"(paraphrased quote). We cannot and may not say that "our" gedolim are nothing compared to the previous generations' gedolim and therefore we need not listen. Hashem put them here now, so this is who we must listen to.

81

 Jul 29, 2013 at 09:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Sebastion Says:

When are you or any other of the ahm horatzim on this board who know NOTHING going to realize that your insults here mean absolutely nothing as well! You don't begin to grasp what a godol is. You want him to do and say what YOU want him to do and say. But that's not what a rabbi is supposed to do. He is telling you something you don't know. Most of you here know only alef bais, some not even that, some a little more. But you know less than 1% of what Rabbi Karelitz knows. To say that "we have our own brains" is fine when thinking THRU halachas and we may question our rabbis decision and discuss it with HIM, BUT we CANNOT go against it!! As it says in RASH"I in parshas Shoftim. on the posuk, "Loh sosur min haderech etc." if a rabbi says right is right and left is left, you must listen but even if he says left is right and right is left EVEN THEN you MUST listen to his psak. No you and I don't know if even Rabbi Kareletz said this or what he said, how and what he meant etc. But know this he and Rabbi Kaniefsky and others are geniuses in torah and world events. Not people like Sheapsheadbaygoy or other dummys on this board. I don't write often but I will ALWAYS defend Gedolim!

if you vlindly follow anyone, then you are simply an idiot.

82

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:16 PM Anonymous Says:

So why not be allowed to steal outright? Wow I could get rich!! Be aware, I'm about to start stealing smartphones!

83

 Jul 29, 2013 at 10:19 PM DavidCohen Says:

Reply to #59  
rebbe123 Says:

Did you find the way? I'm do not smear Israel! and there's nothing wrong by smearing the so-called STATE of Israel! besides being a sadistic stalinistic God hating regime! they're a bunch of crooks!

Yep, that's right, the evil State of Israel.

Yes, I'll use their airports and roads, if I am sick I'll use their hospitals, I'll sit with my face in a gemorrah pretending to learn while they protect me from attack, I'll daven at the kosel which they won from Jordan for me in 1967, I'll even take whatever funds they give me. That "sadistic stalinistic God hating regime".

84

 Jul 29, 2013 at 11:46 PM A Says:

Reply to #80  
Sebastion Says:

However Hashem himself says in the Torah that we should listen to the "kohanim i.e. gedolim who live in "YOUR day"(paraphrased quote). We cannot and may not say that "our" gedolim are nothing compared to the previous generations' gedolim and therefore we need not listen. Hashem put them here now, so this is who we must listen to.

You seem to have missed the earlier part of my post. I'm not sure that these so-called gedolim really are gedolim all because you or someone else proclaim them to be. Even worse, most of them proclaim themselves to be gedolim. And when you look at some of the psakim they toss out at klal yisroel without a thought, without any study, you begin to believe they are fakers because no true godol would make a psak without serious consideration.

85

 Jul 30, 2013 at 01:35 AM yyoyo722 Says:

in case nobody realized, This is HAGOAN RAV NISSIN KARELITZ shlit", i dont know if thos psak ias actually true, i wont believe it fully until i see it, but if it is, how dare one defame the words of the previous av beis din of bnei brak, one who learned under the gedolei yisroel of the previous generation.does one actually have the guts to talk negatively about a tzaddik she'en domeh! to stand in from of the ribbono shel olam in beis din shel maalah, will definitely not be an easy feat. how will one respond to the accusations of calling the godol hador, instead of rabbi as "mr."? Are you joking!!!
a mechaber of countless sfarim, a nephew of hagoan haChazon Ish! If he said his psak its final, just because one may think that the gedolim are not holding in current technology does not give them the right to bash them. I guarantee you that they understand far beyond anyone one of our comprehension of what is going on in this world, down here and up there! so if they say that its assur to own and its not a mitzvah of hashoves avedah then thats final, no arguments!!!

86

 Jul 30, 2013 at 08:35 AM um...yeah... Says:

Reply to #85  
yyoyo722 Says:

in case nobody realized, This is HAGOAN RAV NISSIN KARELITZ shlit", i dont know if thos psak ias actually true, i wont believe it fully until i see it, but if it is, how dare one defame the words of the previous av beis din of bnei brak, one who learned under the gedolei yisroel of the previous generation.does one actually have the guts to talk negatively about a tzaddik she'en domeh! to stand in from of the ribbono shel olam in beis din shel maalah, will definitely not be an easy feat. how will one respond to the accusations of calling the godol hador, instead of rabbi as "mr."? Are you joking!!!
a mechaber of countless sfarim, a nephew of hagoan haChazon Ish! If he said his psak its final, just because one may think that the gedolim are not holding in current technology does not give them the right to bash them. I guarantee you that they understand far beyond anyone one of our comprehension of what is going on in this world, down here and up there! so if they say that its assur to own and its not a mitzvah of hashoves avedah then thats final, no arguments!!!

This is where some yeshivish people begin to sound like they belong to a different religion religion that is based on Judaism.
Avroham avinu made mistakes.
Moshe rabeinu made mistakes.
Dovid HaMelech made mistakes.
Thoughout history Jewish leaders have made mistakes.
Your sad belief in the infalibility of your Rav has no basis in Judaism. Only the RSO is infalible. Confusing the fundamental differences between H' yisburach and humans makes you a well learnt apikoris.

87

 Jul 30, 2013 at 08:50 AM CampRunamok Says:

Reply to #86  
um...yeah... Says:

This is where some yeshivish people begin to sound like they belong to a different religion religion that is based on Judaism.
Avroham avinu made mistakes.
Moshe rabeinu made mistakes.
Dovid HaMelech made mistakes.
Thoughout history Jewish leaders have made mistakes.
Your sad belief in the infalibility of your Rav has no basis in Judaism. Only the RSO is infalible. Confusing the fundamental differences between H' yisburach and humans makes you a well learnt apikoris.

Gut gezogt! Holy people, as deserving of respect and admiration that they are, are still Basar VeDam and are prone to errors. We can still respect and admire them despite that fact. Having said that, I am inclined to think that the alleged ruling being reported here in "Idiot Acharonot" is likely the result of some "broken telephone" communication. Critical details have been omitted as the message passed from mouth to mouth or from texter to texter. Until we see the entire ruling in R. Karelitz's own words I will withhold judgment.

88

 Jul 30, 2013 at 09:05 AM maxedout Says:

Reply to #85  
yyoyo722 Says:

in case nobody realized, This is HAGOAN RAV NISSIN KARELITZ shlit", i dont know if thos psak ias actually true, i wont believe it fully until i see it, but if it is, how dare one defame the words of the previous av beis din of bnei brak, one who learned under the gedolei yisroel of the previous generation.does one actually have the guts to talk negatively about a tzaddik she'en domeh! to stand in from of the ribbono shel olam in beis din shel maalah, will definitely not be an easy feat. how will one respond to the accusations of calling the godol hador, instead of rabbi as "mr."? Are you joking!!!
a mechaber of countless sfarim, a nephew of hagoan haChazon Ish! If he said his psak its final, just because one may think that the gedolim are not holding in current technology does not give them the right to bash them. I guarantee you that they understand far beyond anyone one of our comprehension of what is going on in this world, down here and up there! so if they say that its assur to own and its not a mitzvah of hashoves avedah then thats final, no arguments!!!

"so if they say that its assur to own and its not a mitzvah of hashoves avedah then thats final, no arguments!!!"

You are a perfect example of what a blind sheep is. Do not forget that no human being is perfect, they make mistakes. R' Karelitz may be a talmid chochom, but he still puts his pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. And for him to utter such nonsense just shows that he is also not perfect. You, my friend, need to crawl out from under that rock. As a fellow human being, I have every right to disagree with him - and this is a stupid, thoughtless psak. You just don't realize that its all about control - keep the people uninformed and stupid. And it certainly worked on you.

89

 Jul 30, 2013 at 09:56 AM um .....yeah.... Says:

Reply to #87  
CampRunamok Says:

Gut gezogt! Holy people, as deserving of respect and admiration that they are, are still Basar VeDam and are prone to errors. We can still respect and admire them despite that fact. Having said that, I am inclined to think that the alleged ruling being reported here in "Idiot Acharonot" is likely the result of some "broken telephone" communication. Critical details have been omitted as the message passed from mouth to mouth or from texter to texter. Until we see the entire ruling in R. Karelitz's own words I will withhold judgment.

Yes, they do deserve respect.
But that's a long road from the papal infalibility that 85 presented.
What's with Litvish people and their "gedolim" recently. They have out chasidished the chasidish, and not in a good way.
I guess some people still want to bow to an eigle zahav.

90

 Jul 30, 2013 at 12:04 PM A Says:

Reply to #89  
um .....yeah.... Says:

Yes, they do deserve respect.
But that's a long road from the papal infalibility that 85 presented.
What's with Litvish people and their "gedolim" recently. They have out chasidished the chasidish, and not in a good way.
I guess some people still want to bow to an eigle zahav.

I don't like it when people read my mind.

91

 Jul 30, 2013 at 01:04 PM OpenMindedJew Says:

I'd like to know which Am Haratzim made this rule up because last I checked the rabbonim who wrote the Gemera never had a cell phone..

92

 Jul 30, 2013 at 01:10 PM Sebastion Says:

Reply to #84  
A Says:

You seem to have missed the earlier part of my post. I'm not sure that these so-called gedolim really are gedolim all because you or someone else proclaim them to be. Even worse, most of them proclaim themselves to be gedolim. And when you look at some of the psakim they toss out at klal yisroel without a thought, without any study, you begin to believe they are fakers because no true godol would make a psak without serious consideration.

I did not miss the earlier part of your post. My point was however that YOU or I are never sure who a godol is. You should as a godol who is a godol! And if Rabbi Kaniefsky and Rabbi Shlomo Aurbach, and Rabbi Elyoshuv Z"L or the Belzer Rebbe etc. say that someone is a godol, believe it! Or else you'll NEVER listen to anyone except yourself. "Ahsay l'cho rav" not yourself and it means LISTEN to him.

93

 Jul 30, 2013 at 01:58 PM um..yeah.......................... Says:

Reply to #92  
Sebastion Says:

I did not miss the earlier part of your post. My point was however that YOU or I are never sure who a godol is. You should as a godol who is a godol! And if Rabbi Kaniefsky and Rabbi Shlomo Aurbach, and Rabbi Elyoshuv Z"L or the Belzer Rebbe etc. say that someone is a godol, believe it! Or else you'll NEVER listen to anyone except yourself. "Ahsay l'cho rav" not yourself and it means LISTEN to him.

Your comment is an example of circular logic. The answer and the question are mutually dependent.
Although there are many people that hold by the 5 rabbonim that you listed there are many people that hold by completely different rabbonim.
And no matter what rav you hold by; don't be a papalist believer in the infallibility of any human being. Papist beliefs are apikorsis, and if you need a rav to tell you that you are way over the edge, no matter how big your hat-brim is.

94

 Jul 30, 2013 at 05:08 PM Santas Helper Says:

Reply to #93  
um..yeah.......................... Says:

Your comment is an example of circular logic. The answer and the question are mutually dependent.
Although there are many people that hold by the 5 rabbonim that you listed there are many people that hold by completely different rabbonim.
And no matter what rav you hold by; don't be a papalist believer in the infallibility of any human being. Papist beliefs are apikorsis, and if you need a rav to tell you that you are way over the edge, no matter how big your hat-brim is.

You my friend need a lot of help.

95

 Jul 30, 2013 at 07:50 PM CollegeYid Says:

Reply to #89  
um .....yeah.... Says:

Yes, they do deserve respect.
But that's a long road from the papal infalibility that 85 presented.
What's with Litvish people and their "gedolim" recently. They have out chasidished the chasidish, and not in a good way.
I guess some people still want to bow to an eigle zahav.

Almost nailed it! So called "litvish" are mostly Hungarian and Polish Jews deeply tied to a shtettle background and chasidesh lineage. The days of the misnagid is setting and only a fraction remain. It's partly the fault of the lack of formal education and the continuation of watered down ritualistic Judaism, in which yeshivas poo-poo secular studies, omit Halacha and Mussar and spend endless hours pondering the difference between a shlomin and a chatos. Dumb down your people, confuse them with philosophy, collect money for them and attract them with reward of the promise land- the masses will march forward.

96

 Jul 31, 2013 at 07:53 AM BarryLS1 Says:

Reply to #47  
rebbe123 Says:

Idk the basis of the psak regarding the phones, but are you a rabbi to decide what a rabbi and posek can or can't pasken? Does a posek need permission or advice in halocho from the general public? of course NOT! and if you feel they do need input from ordinary people then i doubt if you're religious at all

What does the Torah teach about how to determine a Novi Sheker? Same applies here. I don't think someone qualifies as a ral posek if they tell you to change Torah law.

97

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