Jerusalem – A new Halachic ruling says that, according to the Torah, banned “smartphones” or “non-kosher” phones do not meet the requirements of property that must be returned to its owner, if found.
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YNETnews.com (http://bit.ly/13rqLvx) reports that the ruling, issued by Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, comes after much debate surrounding “thou shalt not steal,” which was sparked when a Bnei Brak bakery saleswoman declined to give back a lost smartphone to its rightful owner.
With all do respect, I don’t trust any of these Rabbis. They only here one side of the story, usually from agenda motivated individuals. Sadly many of them do not realize, that this area must be left for Rabbis who are more in touch with everyday life.
How are they not property? They are worth more than a Sheva pruta?!? Just cuz they may be “tumma machines” according to these people, they still are worth something!
A did they really give such a psak or is it coming from others in their name. B what if you have a filter??
What els is new? I don’t know if I should laugh or cry. #nonsense
Let’s see how lawless Rabbis think about the mitzvah of “posessing stolen property”, or is the kleptocracy that is Haredi leadership going to continue to assume it’s above any and all law of any land in which they dwell? I think we all know the answer to that one, right knuckledraggers?
The next Kol Koreh will be that you should not password-protect your smart phones, so that the finders can keep it AND use it…
how can one bring up children to be well mannered if we/they hear such psak’s?
its sad that these rabbonim are out of touch and sadly too radical to be what torah calls darchaseh darki noam vsholom.
i gave up on rabbonim i consult mt shulchan aruch and use common sense with decency…as most rabbonim dont know what that is anymore. what a shame.
It’s theft. 100% Assur Min Hatorah.
By his logic, we should simply declare that property owned by Charedim is avodah zarah and simply burn their houses to the ground, as the Torah demands.
This is ridiculous! There is nothing inherently against halacha in owning and using a phone with an internet connection. Today most torah institutions use the internet. Inside of a phone, it has so many constructive uses for bnei torah. If a few rabbonim find that the spiritual dangers of using such phones outweigh the benefits, they are welcome to impose their bans on those who wish to comply. But for a rabbi to imagine that with a few cosigners their group can impose a ban upon the majority of shomrei shabbas yidden is beyond my comprehension.
I’ve spoken personally with some of these rabbis, and I was put off by their assumption that I would “obey” them against sane halachic reasoning.
It gets worse & worse. I’m bracing myself for the next insanity.
Are these guys clear minded, or simply irrational extremists?
So, another “Rabbi” has issued a mickey mouse psak. I can add the name of Mr. Nissim Karelitz to the ever growing list of so called Rabbis that should be ignored. Amazing how they can change halacha according to their idiotic beliefs.
you gotte love it
rabbis making up the rules as they along to suit themselves ,whatajoke
Assuming this story is true, which I’m not certain it is, whoever this rav is who made such a psak is a true am ha’ortez. Its not up to each yid to decide whether to return lost property. Its mamash stealing if the owner has not made hefker. These chareidim are really going over the deep end with the assistance of their rabbonim.
Then if you have a valuable that the non-jew or the “not so orthodox” jew finds, he has no obligation to return it to you for he does not agree with your halacha and you basically are declaring war on someone else’s well being and possessions. Remind me to leave your earrings in the trash can.
We are moving into a new era….. Rabbis without Hashem.
No problem. If I lose my phone and someone finds it and refuses to return it, I will go to the Zionist police instead and ask them to charge the thief in court. Despite the large numbers of baale teshuva there are today, B”H, what is overlooked in the Haredi community is the equally great numbers of haredim who are leaving the haredi camp and either abandoning Torah and Mitzvos altogether or worse still becoming Mizrochniks. Many of those who leave are revolted by this type of nonsense spouted in the name of “the gedolim”. Gedolim is actually the right word to use here because that is exactly what this sort of proclamation is!
I work in sales, and i keep my business contacts on my phone. By this logic somebody should keep my phone with my contacts, destroy my parnassah, put my family in poverty, close the kollel that i founded and single-handedly support, all the yeshivos i support will then get nothing, the kallahs waiting for the weddings i pay for will keep waiting.
Anybody that listens to this psak is min, pure and simple. To listen to this foolishness is to bring destruction upon the charedi klal Yisroel.
These are the rulings for which the State of Israel is paying out millions of dollars in welfare payments.?? Obviously, money not well spent. Hey, steal money from the gov’t. Steal phones. The operative word is “steal”.
Accordinf to this psak Lets say I bought a cat (witch is not kosher of course) in my building because of mice and it wanders away there is no obligation to be observe the mitzva of hashovas aviedeh?
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate in Physics.
The problem with these rabbis is that they are damned by their outright hatred and arrogance. This ruling constitutes putting a stumbling block before the blind. This is a very significant Torah violation. This ruling makes the one who loses a smart phone a victim and the sharia law that is being observed is a conflagaration of lies against Torah. Pray for Israel. We need G-dly rabbis more than ever…
Before you know it someone will come out saying that those who voted for Bayit Yehudi are destined for Gehenom
This is what happens when you don’t learn chassidus.
if I find it can I at least sell it to a none Jew? And if I did who get the profit?
And therefore, since it’s not שוה פרוטה – if you see someone with a Smartphone, it is perfectly okay to steal it from him.
Just for the record, Rav Karelitz is the chairman of the beis din tzdek of Beni Brak and is the nephew of the Chazzon Ish. With that said lets continue to make fun of him.
What about money?
Since people use money to pay for smartphones, then we shouldn’t return money either.
its a mitzvah to ignore “rabbi’s” who say it ok to steal
The Ultra Orthodox are creating an embarrassment to the Torah. This non-sense got to stop!
You cannot come up with this BS and expect to be respected! How about if I find keys to a car and the man is a Mechallel Shabbas, can I keep it? How about if I find cigarettes? How about if I find anything, but the man that lost it carried in the Eiruv, but I don’t believe in the Eiruv, is that good enough? How about if I find a key to the ladies Mikvah where I know a Single girl will use it to have relations with a single boy
Geez stop it!
I don’t believe the “story” and it is CLEAR this is translated wrongly!!
I will say, after 120, the gonif could shlep the “rov” to the bais din shel ma’ala to testify on his behalf.
I really dont understand this Psak Haluche..?
Should a mechalel shabbos come to my door and ask for food for his kids do i have to send him away because he is mechalel shabos.? Of coure NOT because he is a JEW and the torah dosent teach us different..Where does this psak end?
There are many Rabunim who allow Smartphones for business people as long it has a filter…Where did he take this psak from? How can you teach another jew NOT to return someones lost property when the torah instructs us different…I did not see Rashi or all meforshim to make a difference when it comes to Mitzveh Hashuves Avydeh….
Please, people. Check the source of this very likely false report. It is Ynet. Enough said.
1: If it is reported on an Internet site it may, in fact, not be true. As such, don’t dismiss Rabbi Karelitz unless you heard him say this stupidity himself. You have a brain, use it.
2: That said, the title “Rabbi” does not imbue any individual with automatic sanity or infallibility. There are indeed lots of Rabbis who say stupid things, which is why we have brains and are supposed to use them.
Bottom line, think for yourself!
Taken to its logical conclusion, this is a psak that one does not have to return any “non Kosher” object to its owner. I have never heard anything more absurd and ignorant in a long time.
I haven’t seen the ruling, but it probably just means that persons that are stringent upon themselves not to own or use such phones, have no obligation to pick up such a lost phone and attempt to return it, but rather, unlike other found objects, they may just ignore the lost object. Obviously the ruling does not permit the finder to take it for themselves.
My assumption is that their ruling is not connected to the case of the woman who took the phone for herself.
This “psak” is from his sefer חוט שני. The volume is the one dealing with הלכות פסח.
It’s the very last item of the sefer on דף שלא. You can download a copy from hebrewbooks.org (page 335 of the pdf file). It’s not a new “ruling” so I don’t know why it’s hitting the fan now.
So no, it wasn’t made up by Ynet, and it was indeed translated correctly so those excuses go out the window.
So I will be דן לכף זכות and say that the reason it’s in the volume dealing with Pesach is that this particular phone in the שאילה had חמץ in it. That’s why it was in a bakery. And because it had חמץ in it it couldn’t be returned until AFTER Pesach.
That’s the only thing that makes sense.
There are 5 ways of reacting to this Psak:
a) I agree with the Psak
b) I don’t believe the source of the Psak
c) לא ירדתי לסוף דבריו הקדושים
d) b&c (I don’t believe it, but if it’s true, לא ירדתי לסוף דבריו הקדושים)
e) Whoever made this Psak is an Am Ha’aretz and knows nothing about Torah and doesn’t deserve the title “rabbi”.
Unfortunately, the majority of commenters here chose “e”.
I hope the VIN commenters don’t represent כלל ישראל because if they did…
אוי לנו מיום הדין אוי לנו מיום התוכחה
So now one can keep it!
All that was stated in the article was that you are not obligated to search for the owner,of course you are forbidden to take it.
In the secular world it is rare to find a individual that would go out of his way to return a lost object and all to often the finder would keep it even if he can return the item.
This discussion just highlights how special frum yidden are as we are the only society that is constantly looking to help a stranger in need,whether its fixing a flat tire or returning a lost object etc…
How about i walk in the street and i find an envelope with few thousand dollars of cash and there is a name on the envelope and i know the person to be a mechalel shabbos do i have to return it to its owner.?
I understand the difference is the object not the owner…The Smartphone is the object here in question NOT the owner of the phone…..Because the object is forbidden to carry then it becomes NON returnable to its owner.???
Can anyone here with knowledge on Hilchos hashuves Avydeh please explain this Psak if it has any mekor from the Gemura,meforshim …..
I dont see it being correct and mentchlich but maybe the Poskim do .?
I assume RNK and his followers will totally understand when other rabbis declare charedism avodah zara gadol worship and assur returning their lost items, giving them tzdakkah and going into their treife shuls.
Reply to 53
Well said!
you misread the psak in the sefer there is a major tnai – the person needs to be chashud that he would use it for a davar assur in order for it not to qualify for hashavas aveida – which is very different than the psak here. The fact that it doesnt require hachraza is a big chiddush to me but it still would not extend to this case because the baalim are known. I doubt that such a psak was given is this case. This sounds made up.
Once upon a time there was a religion called Judaism. Now it has apparently broken up into many mini- religions.
In years gone by if someone was a Gadol, he was a Gadol. Now unfortunately except for a few exceptions your Gadol is nothing to me and my Gadol is nothing to you. When we don’t agree with each other, we resort to name calling and acrimony.
I buess there is no such a thing as a religious person, because we all apparently have different beliefs. I do not think that this is what the avos had in mind.
Given the current mentality, when meshiach comes how will we greet him? If he is not wearing the right Levush will we reject him? Shame on all of us. We miss the forest for the trees. We place value on the worthless. Chaval!!!!!!
The exception to the psak is if someone finds the iPhone of Rav Amnon Yitzchak…
Do people still have smartphones? I thought the asife took care of that?
I wonder if the same goes for the one finding the lost “smartphone” if the honorable “Rabbi” when he loses his phone…… if you wonder, “Rabbis” always seem to have a heter to own and use phones they prohibit others from using
So why not be allowed to steal outright? Wow I could get rich!! Be aware, I’m about to start stealing smartphones!
in case nobody realized, This is HAGOAN RAV NISSIN KARELITZ shlit”, i dont know if thos psak ias actually true, i wont believe it fully until i see it, but if it is, how dare one defame the words of the previous av beis din of bnei brak, one who learned under the gedolei yisroel of the previous generation.does one actually have the guts to talk negatively about a tzaddik she’en domeh! to stand in from of the ribbono shel olam in beis din shel maalah, will definitely not be an easy feat. how will one respond to the accusations of calling the godol hador, instead of rabbi as “mr.”? Are you joking!!!
a mechaber of countless sfarim, a nephew of hagoan haChazon Ish! If he said his psak its final, just because one may think that the gedolim are not holding in current technology does not give them the right to bash them. I guarantee you that they understand far beyond anyone one of our comprehension of what is going on in this world, down here and up there! so if they say that its assur to own and its not a mitzvah of hashoves avedah then thats final, no arguments!!!