New York – Tune ‘Mishenichnas’ Originated From The Secular World.

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    New York – With all the hotly ongoing debate in the Jewish music industry, its interesting to note, a tune that has been around for many years on משנכנס אדר מרבים בשמחה ‘Mishenichnas Adar Marbim Besimcha’ originated from a ‘Goy’ musician in the 70’s

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    31 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    I don’t see the Avla of adapting goyishe songs. Most of our niggunim originate from the songs in our environment ..i.e. Chasuna niggunim with Russian, Rumanian, Hungarian or Arabic inflections, depending where it came from. I will tell you one better; If BenBagBag would have known what they would make of his ma’amar, he would have NEVER opened his mouth.

    yeapb
    yeapb
    16 years ago

    I must say when I first heard this song I was horrified as my mother used to sing me the original song as a child! I forbad the children to sing it in my house and I told everyone about it, some people were shocked and some just shruggeds!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    maybe the rabbonim should asser this song?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Sir, you’re completely wrong. Both of Mendelssohn’s parents were Jewish. And after they converted, Felix Mendelssohn refused to change his last name to Bartholdy like his parents did, even though his father repeatedly asked him to.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Anon 2:38,

    >Rav Moshe Feinstein Zatzal (Orach Chaim vol. 1 Siman 166) is of the opinion that: 1) Singing with musical accompaniment is prohibited under regular circumstances, but is allowable for the purpose of fulfilling a Mitzvah.

    The issur he is referring to is Kli shir ol hayayin (orech chaim s.560) because they serve wine at some of these dinners. That is why he needed to come onto dvar mitzvah.

    Boruch 3:00,
    Felix Mendelsohn was a Goy Gomur. His father, Moshe Mendelsohn’s son, married a shiksa. Fitting for the “the father of modern assimilation” He got exactly what he wanted, a chance to be equal to goyim.

    MBD song yidden is disgusting, especially since it is based on a man who was the Adolph Hitler y”sh of his generation. I personally protest it any time I hear it played at a chasunah. The song was played in 1979 in Eretz Yisroel because they had some kind of song competition then. It obviously incubated in MBD head for 2 decades before he figured people forgot where it came from.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    BTW the tune of Mishenichnas is also a Russian folk song with the words ” Misha , Misha Gdyeh tvoya ulibka?” meaning Misha Misha where is your smile? It probably was the source of Mishe Mishe Mishenichnas Adar since the beginnings are the same.On that note many of Yom Tov Ehrlich’s nigunnim are Russian folk songs. Including, the one about the ships captain and Kol Nidrei, Yosef Mokir Shabbos and Chupchik.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    This is so intresting!!!
    I have never heard of it but its cool!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    IT?
    who? what? where?
    Right, and since beethoven’s most famous masterpieces were written when he was DEAF (and had been declining hearing prior to total deafness) how could he have possibly been “istening” outside shuls?

    Boruch
    Boruch
    16 years ago

    It has been written that Mozart and Beethoven would stand outside shuls in Austria and Germany to hear the melodies so that they could adapt them. My music teacher would teach that melodies are plagarized left and right, only words are copyrighted. Felix Mendelsohn, was Jewish. Even musicologists argue over the origins of melodies and the incorporation of a melody from one piece of music to another. It is similar to the chicken and egg argument, which came first? They are all a Shehakol, so does it matter?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    I found this on another blog:

    The well-known version of Chayav Inish sung on Purim, which sets the text of the Talmud in Megilla 7b (a discussion of the obligations of Purim) to a popular adaptation of the Hungarian folk melody “Czép Aszonynak Kurezálok.” The medley ends with the band musically blurring the boundaries “ad d’lo yada” with some odd-meter improvisation.

    Any Hungarians to confirm that?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    my two cents:

    I was surprised that amongst all the hoopla about the “Big Event”, very little of the underlying Halachos of adapting non-Jewish music were actually discussed. I’d like to point out that the Birkei Yosef Orach Chaim 560:6 specifically addresses this phenomenon. He quotes the Sefer Maasei Rokeach who deduces from the Maharam Di Lunzano in Sefer Shtay Yodos (Pg. 100) that it is PROHIBITED to adapt non-Jewish tunes to Jewish songs, because “although the song is Holy, the non-Jewish tune is harmful”. The Birkei Yosef however points out that the Maharam Di Lunzano seems to contradict himself later on in Sefer Shtay Yodos (Pg. 142) where he writes that he himself used Arab tunes for most of his songs since they tended to “raise their voices” in song, more that others. And he goes on to explain that those that disallow such a practice are not justified. (The Sefer is available at Hebrewbooks.org).

    Many Hungarian Jews are familiar with the Nigunim of the Kaliver Rebbe Zatza”l. Perhaps the most famous of his songs is “Zshol Akakash Mar” (spelling?), which according to common knowledgs, was adapted from a Hungarian shepard’s song. It is fair to say that much of the reason behind the Rabonim’s ban had more to do with the beat, tempo, etc. of the tunes that were adapted, than the fact that they were actually adapted or not. The purpose of song, as mentioned in the Sefer Charedim (Mitzvos Esay Min Hatorah Perek 7) is to awaken in our hearts the love to Hashem. When sung with this purpose, the Charedim considers the act of singing to be a fulfillment of the Mitzvas Esay of V’Uhavtu Es Hashem. Certain kinds of music are not conducive of this goal, to put it mildly. This may also be a possible explanation for the seeming contradiction in the words of the Maharam Di Lunzano; the type of tune being adapted is most pertinant.

    Music that is sung purely as a form of entertainment is also Halachically suspect because of another reason. According to many Poskim this would be prohibited as a sign of mourning for Churban Beis Hamikdosh, as mentioned in Shulchan Orach Siman 560. Exceptions are made for songs of Dveikus (Aishel Avrohom Butshats, Rav Vozner Volume 6 Siman 69), and songs that help workers concentrate on their work. The common habit of many to listen to CD’s and cassettes, etc. seems to be based on a leniency mentioned in Achronim, that we need soothing music to avoid getting depressed, etc.

    Rav Moshe Feinstein Zatzal (Orach Chaim vol. 1 Siman 166) is of the opinion that: 1) Singing with musical accompaniment is prohibited under regular circumstances, but is allowable for the purpose of fulfilling a Mitzvah. He mentions a “safak” if music at a Banquet where the proceeds go to charity is considered a D’var Mitzvoh or not, since the meal itself is not a Mitzvah, and neither is the joy attained from the music. His Psak: Better to be stringent, but not to be “Moche” those that are more lenient. It would seem, that the Rabonim banning the concert understood that this TYPE of gathering could not be condoned in any case. In my opinion, it ends up being a judgment call-and that’s the kind of thing we need Gedolim for.

    I am not addressing the Halachic ramifications of causing financial loss, or naming names. That would seem to be a separate issue deserving clarification.

    Tina
    Tina
    16 years ago

    oy vey – Now Im all confused

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    i think it shows alot of talent to convert a goyish to a yiddish song…

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    BAN GOYISHE MUSIC FROM CELLPHONES!

    Imagine, what would your davening be like (could be Shmoneh Esrei),and, all of a sudden, you hear something like, “I want to hold your hand…,” from the Beatles (talk about beatle Torah)?!
    I’ve heard worse in Shul; had to tell someone to change his phone’s “nigun” because it was Wagner,Y”SH (vicious anti-semite whose music Hitler,Y”SH, adored)!

    Oh! Turn off phone during davening? We tend to forget that, so, at least, let the error be a “kosher” nigun.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Why MBD’s songs were aloud all the time? he sang w/ no mechitza w/ women from all types. There is nothing wrong w/ Lipa S. songs, and besides why people listen to what others have to say (when in all the papers now photos of so called “rabbonin” are taken)??

    Shalom Yaakov
    Shalom Yaakov
    16 years ago

    Firstly, this song dates from the pre Civil War era (mid 1800’s or earlier) and was sung by the slaves as they worked.

    Secondly, many Chassidishe groups have used secular tunes over the years. For example, I have heard “HoAderes” sung to the tune of the French National Anthem by Lubavitchers (several recordings exist).

    If we shouldn’t be using “goyishe” music, maybe we need to change the name of the notes in the scale – afterall, A, B, C, D, E, F, G are all “goyishe” letters, and not loshon koidesh!

    Get a life, if you find the music offensive, don’t listen to it, last time I checked, radios, CD players, I-Pods, et al have on/off switches, and nobody was being forced to buy concert tickets.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    There’s a version from 1945 sung by Leadbelly, a popular black singer. In his intro, he mentions that they used to sing this in the fields as they worked to keep themselves going. Since he was at least in his 60s or 70s when the film was made, this would imply that the song is likely from the 1800s at least.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    First of who sings this for mishenechnas? the only time we sang this tune was to make fun of the goyish song from the 1860’s. This was how they sang in the fields.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    so what? uncle moishy elevated folk songs with jewish lyrics

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    how about napolean’s maarch.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    we should not sing in shul because goyim sing in churches! HA ! that will show them!

    T
    T
    16 years ago

    Next you’re going to tell us Maoz Tzur came from a German choir in Berlin.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    yea, and throw in some indian shaytils while your at it, and your brains too . (if u have any)

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Avodym hoyinu b’america.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    most new homes today are built with 4 panels doors. If you look at it u will see the shape of a Tzelem . I think we should go make a BIG fire and destroy this terrible Toieva from our homes.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Do not wear Clothing because ADAM and EVE who were NOT jewish were the first ones to wear them.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    yea, this song is a lot older than the 70’s, theres a 1934 version sung by Moses Clear Rock Platt, an African-American singer, and its probably older than him, and yea i saw the german version of MBD’s song as well…this isnt really “news” :p

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Most tunes to Jewish songs have a goyishe origin. A number of Chassdishe songs are known to be tunes composed by the German composer Bach.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    THE ISSUE IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED UNTIL NOW. WE COULD TAKE THE TIME TO CHANGE. WHATEVER HAPPENED DOES NOT HAVE TO CONTINUE HAPPENING. WE CAN BETTER OURSELVES ONE DAY AT A TIME. WE DO HAVE ALOT OF TALENT AMONG US. ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS TAP INTO IT. THERE ARE ALOT OF DIFFICULT NISYONES THAT ARE AN EVERYDAY THING AMONG US TODAY. SO MAYBE, IF PERHAPS WE WILL BE A LITTLE MORE AWARE AND BE WILLING TO CHANGE ONE BABY STEP AT A TIME, HASEM WILL HAVE PITY ON US AND GIVE US ONLY GOOD THINGS FROM NOW ON. HASEM WANT’S US TO BE BESIMCHA AND PART OF SIMCHA IS THROUGH SONG SO HE DOES NOT WANT US TO STOP SINGING HASEM WANT’S THAT OUR SINGING SHOULD INSPIRE US TO FEEL CLOSER TO HIM. MUSIC THAT IS TAKEN FROM UNHOLY MINDS CAN NOT BRING ONE CLOSER TO OUR HIGHER POWER, OUR SWEET FATHER IN SHAMAYIM. SO LET US NOT POINT FINGERS AT ANYONE. SINCE WE WILL SOON START CLEANING OUR HOUSES FOR PESACH, NOW IS A GOOD TIME TO CLEAN UP. I BELIEVE THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO BE ENTERTAINED BY OUR PEOPLE IN A REAL TRUE SIMCAHDIKER WAY LIKE NEVER BEFORE AND THAT WILL ONLY BRING MOSHACH CLOSER WHICH WILL BRING THE EVERLASTING SIMCHA WE ALL OUR HOPING FOR.
    WITH LOVE A FELLOW JEW WHO LOVES TO SING

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    MBD’s song Yidden is a German cabaret song and dance from an outfit called Genghis Khan and has many immoral references. So.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    When you say ’70s, do you mean 1870s? Because this has been around for at least 150 years. Why is this song a chiddish for people? I still remember when a bochur in mesivta came in singing the song “Jump down turn around, pick a bale of cotton.”