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New York - Star K Kosher Supervision: Claiming The Rebbi Is Moshiach, Is Not In Our Kosher Hired 'Shochtim'

Published on: May 25, 2008 09:32 AM
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New York - Last night on the Zev Brenner radio show Dr. Avraham Pollack president of the Baltimore-based Star-K, was asked their position of, Chabad messianist shochtim. Would the Star K hire them? Approve their shechita?

Dr. Pollack answered that we look for ‘Yerai Shomayim’ shoctim and chabad has many of them that are ‘Erlich’, however if one of the shochtim claim openly ‘Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V’Rabbeinu Melech HaMoshiach’ that is definitely a red flag and will most likely not be hired by us.


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1

 May 25, 2008 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:

didnt he learn this weeks pirkei ovos? binfoil oivechoo al tismoch........... what a shame

2

 May 25, 2008 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Would "Dr." Pollack eat at their Chabad House if he were stuck somewhere in Timbuktu?

3

 May 25, 2008 at 10:18 AM Anon1 Says:

Dr. Pollack might eat in a Chabad house, but that is a personal choice. As for the public, they are demanding that standard, and the StarK is obliging.

4

 May 25, 2008 at 10:21 AM Anonymous Says:

Anon 9:41 he was just responding to a question.

5

 May 25, 2008 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Shach was way ahead of the curve on Chabad.

6

 May 25, 2008 at 10:24 AM Anonymous Says:

All the great Gedolim realized the major potential problem of the Lubavitcher Rebbe at least tacitly acknowledging his potential messianic status.

7

 May 25, 2008 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Dr. Pollak is a yerei shomayim.

8

 May 25, 2008 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:

yo meshichistan get ur act together and grow up first the shvatze r the problem now the star k go get urself a life and stop blaming and attaking the world

9

 May 25, 2008 at 10:29 AM Anonymous Says:

how many of shachs followers have taken adavantage of chabad houses or its facilities while traveling? please make a poll of all those that are antichabad and what uses they have made of chabad.

10

 May 25, 2008 at 10:33 AM Nisht Kein Chuchem Says:

This 'Chabad House' talking point should be reserved for the worst case scenario.

I was stuck in Tenessee for a night w/out any food whatsoever, and was invited by a local Chabad Rabbi, but I didn't eat a thing out of fear that he's Meshichist (perhaps an Oived Avoideh Zura r'l) So don't give me the "if you're stuck" argument. We oughta do what's right regardless to the 'stuck' point.

11

 May 25, 2008 at 10:40 AM Anonymous Says:

where does it say if I believe the rebbe is going to be mashiach that its avoida zoro

12

 May 25, 2008 at 10:45 AM Anonymous Says:

"Nisht Kein Chuchem" is an understatement. The Mishna says that one who lacks the qualities of a Chuchem... is a Gollem!

13

 May 25, 2008 at 10:48 AM Anonymous Says:

10:29 "how many of shachs followers have taken adavantage of chabad houses or its facilities while traveling? please make a poll of all those that are antichabad and what uses they have made of chabad."
You know what I wish there would be a guide as to who the meschistim are and I would be willing to gaurantee tha most frum yidden would in fact not eat there unless the food is double wrapped
as in an airplane. It may be a good idea for all the gedolim to actually come out in public on this & have no fear of these off the derech cultist meshugoyim. Let's call a spade a spade.
Till a list comes out, we need to assume that every Chabad House maybe a sofek Meschichist
& not trustworthy. There needs to be a BIG sign in front of every legitimate Chabad House "WE ARE NOT MESHICHISTIM WE ARE REAL JEWS" If they don't denounce this garbage then nobody should even drink water there. We need to boycot these morons that dress like yidden they are in fact cultist missionaries.

14

 May 25, 2008 at 11:00 AM lavdafka Says:

wow! this is bad ...why is evry lubob getting so bent up? rabbi pollack only said MOST LIKELYnot be hired by us!!!!! 25% od lubab believe that the mishichist position is wrong and destructive. im one of them.

15

 May 25, 2008 at 11:01 AM Nisht Kein Chuchem Says:

10:45, I smell defeat by your attack on my alias rather than my concept... vd'l.

16

 May 25, 2008 at 11:05 AM Anonymous Says:

doesnt it say somewhere you should watch out for your life, ummmmmmmmmm oh dummy that doesnt count here because he starved himself?????????????????????????????????????????????????

i thought you guys beleived in everything it says everywhere not just selective beleiving.
stupid stupid stupid, its a shame more people like you dont starve themselves ona daily basis there would be less haters in this world.

17

 May 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

that is one of the main problems with the Rubashkin shochtim!

18

 May 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Kudos to Rabbi Belsky & Rabbi Pollack & all those with some stature that have the backbone to say in public what needs to be said without fear regarding these dangerous meshichistim.

19

 May 25, 2008 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:

I think we need to have Hashgochas on meat that
also specifies that they only hire (lubav) Shochtim that denounce the meshichistim.
Let the consumers have the choice if they want to eat from shechita of meshichistim.

20

 May 25, 2008 at 11:16 AM lavdafka Says:

in reality I have a feW level headed shluchim friends who are closet mishchistim.. they do maintain kashrus (high-paying) assignmnts with the OU

21

 May 25, 2008 at 11:19 AM Jack Says:

All of you who are going against Chabad after the histalkus of the Rebbe; maybe you need a reminder, that while the Rebbe was around, you use to bash him with horrible nivul peh I witnessed this on many occasions.
Whats the difference now?

22

 May 25, 2008 at 11:21 AM Anonymous Says:

NOBODY bashed Chabad here.
Almost everyone is smart enough to differentiate between Chabad & Meschistism which is a new religion that is trying to hijack Chabad & is giving it a bad name.
Vin posts the news - this was news - that a prominent Rov came out & said in response to a very valid question the real emes.
I hope VIN continues to post the news & not just
weather.

23

 May 25, 2008 at 11:25 AM Moshiach?! Yeah, right!!! Says:

I am addressing this to what we still hope are the minority who still think he is alivr & or that he is moshiach. This is not addressed towards any co-workers, friends, etc., who have remained sane.

Dead people buried under a major thick slab of concrete are NOT moshiach! Get that thru your uneducated in judiasm heads already.

Oh 1029, that would be Rav Shach to you as I am 1000% sure he forgot more than you you will ever know.

Face the facts, he was not a g-d and he is DEAD.

24

 May 25, 2008 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:

the rebbi may have been moshiach when he was alive. now that he has passed on I think they need rethink this status. and not just defend it because that is what they beleived all his life. hashem should give them the seichel hayoshor to see into this.

25

 May 25, 2008 at 11:32 AM Anonymous Says:

25% od lubab believe that the mishichist position is wrong and destructive.

SO THAT EQUALS %75 DON'T SEE A BIG DEAL WITH IT!!! MORE THAN ROV!!!

BESIDES ANYONE WHO DOESN'T SEE WHAT WRONG WITH MESHICHISM IS A SHOTEH AND THEREFORE PASUL, OR WORSE IS PROBABLY A CLOSET HIMSELF

26

 May 25, 2008 at 11:34 AM Litvak ben Litvak from Lakewood Says:

To All the ignorant people attacking Lubavitch out there...

Why don't you learn Mesechtes Sanhedrin and see for yourself that "Moshiach does NOT need to be from the living".

If you don’t accept this basic concept you are a Koifer (heretic) B’torah U’Bmoshe Avdoi!!!

There is NO Halachik problem believing that Moshiach is from Olom Hoemes.

Look it up. See it for yourself. Learn what Toras Moshe has to say about it and only then can you form an opinion based on Daas Torah.

P.S. Snahedrin daf Tzadik Ches umud Beis: Im Meoison shechayin achshov haynu rabeinu hakodosh…….

27

 May 25, 2008 at 11:36 AM Anonymous Says:

It wasnt just Rav Shach. the Brisker Rav once said "Er shmekt fun moshiach".

28

 May 25, 2008 at 11:37 AM Jack Says:

Put the Moshiach issue aside, all of you will find someway to find somethings posul with Chabad.

29

 May 25, 2008 at 11:44 AM Anonymous Says:

"Face the facts, he was not a g-d and he is DEAD."

Do most of you people posting here think Moshiach is Hashem? You need to do a little reading. Start with the Rambam. Moshiach will be a man. It is NOT apikorsis to say that so and so is Moshiach.

It may be wrong, it may be silly, it may even be dangerously misguided to say ploni is Moshiach. But it is not avodah zorah and it doesn't posul a shochet or anyone else.

As some have said, the problem with the mishichistim is that they are off the derech generally, not with the ikar inyan that the Rebbe of Chabad could be Moshiach. Who knows? I'm personally not a Lubavitcher and I'm not threatened by the possibility. I would rather Moshiach would come and I don't personally care WHO he is only that Moshiach come ASAP in our days!

"Dead people buried under a major thick slab of concrete are NOT moshiach!"

Give us a mekor for this? I think you missed a couple of days worth of learning.

Stop bashing everyone else and start working on your own avodah....this will surely bring the REAL MOSHIACH and then we will all get to see who he is!

30

 May 25, 2008 at 11:48 AM Anonymous Says:

I just posted 11:44 wanted to say Litvak ben Litvak from Lakewood thanks for bringing that gemorah I couldn't remember where it was. Shkoiach on your other comments.

31

 May 25, 2008 at 11:54 AM Anonymous Says:

if the rebe is moshiach y does he let the shvartze beet his followers??

32

 May 25, 2008 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is alive or has died, has the potential of being the future Moshiach, as shall be determined by Hashem. Saying that ploni almoni WAS or IS the Moshiach, is an attempt to trump Hashem c"v. THAT is apikorsus. And to claim that someone was Moshiach, and died, and will return to complete his Moshiach job, THAT is xtianity!!

33

 May 25, 2008 at 11:58 AM lavdafka Says:

If we would LEAVE THE MOSHICH ISSUE ALONE FOR A WHILE and channel all that super energy and enthusiasm into ahavas yisroel ( nonetheless to our fellow lubavitchers!!!!! ) we would be a very pleasing force to all our fellow frum yidden , to the nations and to Hashem. WHAT PUZZLES ME THE MOST is : that years ago… I would always see people who would be asked to sum-up the Rebbe in one word it would “ he’s all about ahavas yisroel!!!!” SOMETHING SEEMS TO HAVE GONE TERRIBLY AMISS!!!!! Lets stop focusing so much on moshiach !!!

34

 May 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM Anonymous Says:

To 11:44 AM,
I think the problem people have with messianic Lubobs is not that the Rebbe can't be Moshiach, it's that a lot of these guys believe no one else can be the moshiach. This was not so problematic when he was alive, because everyone believes their leader to be the godol of the generation. But after he is dead why should he be the Moshiach as opposed to Moshe Rabbienu, the Avos, etc.? Whether they are Apikorsim, Mishigoyim or something else is up to debate, but if you could find more normal Shochtim, why hire these guys?

35

 May 25, 2008 at 12:15 PM lavdafka Says:

ALL THE CHABADNIKS USE THE RAMBAM AS THE FOREMOST TEXT DEALING WITH MOSHIACH!! AS FAR AS I REMEMBER (I DO LEARN RAMBAM EVERY DAY) RAMBAM EXPLICITLY STATES THAT IS NOT OUR PLACE TO THINK TOO DEEPLY INTO / OR TO FIGURE OUT WHO’S MOSHIACH .. IF WE DON’T STOP WE ARE GOING TO SELF DESTRUCT….

36

 May 25, 2008 at 01:03 PM Isi Says:

Once again the Hate Mongers have their food for the day.

BY THE WAY CAN ANY OF THE HATE MONGERS POST ONE (JUST ONE) MAREH MOKOM SO THAT WE CAN SEE WHAT IT IS BASED ON THAT LUBAVITCHERS WHO BELIEVE THE REBBE IS MOSHIACH ARE APIKORSIM

May Hashem help people start internalizing the Torah they learn.

37

 May 25, 2008 at 01:03 PM Snag Says:

That gemoro says that if moshiach if from someone that died it would be Doniel Ish Chamudos, no-one else.

38

 May 25, 2008 at 01:12 PM tzaddik Says:

To believe that the last rebbe is Moshiach,is avodo zoro. When the time comes,may it be soon,we will know.In the meantime we must do our mitzvohs,learn Torah and daven,and treat each other with respect. A Rov has every right and the responsibility to monitor the hashkofos of his shochtim. Those who believe in false philosophies cannot be properly trusted to do shechita and to teach Torah.

39

 May 25, 2008 at 01:12 PM nn Says:

Anonymous Says:
Would "Dr." Pollack eat at their Chabad House if he were stuck somewhere in Timbuktu?
05-25-2008 - 9:50 AM
=============================================
Are you asking a bedeeeved question or a lechatchila question . Getting stucj somewhere is a bideeeved. Would you eat a piece of pas palter if you were stuck and starving would u serve a piece of non glatt but kosher meat to your wife and kids if your were stuck in a dessert iosland? i hope your answer is yes other wise you fall into the category of a chasid shoytah.

40

 May 25, 2008 at 01:14 PM anonnymous Says:

Just about every chassidis today would love to think that thier rebbe is moshiach . The only difference is they dont verbalize the way the lubabs do and frankly halachikly thier is nothing wrong with that . And certainly does not make them kofrim.

41

 May 25, 2008 at 01:15 PM you people missed the boat..... Says:

If you just decide on your own who moshiach is or isn't without Daas Torah than you could start your own religion, and leave yidishkeit out of it.

However the Lubavitchers have sources in Toras Moshe that says clearly Moshioach could be from the Olom Hoemes.

For Example: the gemora in sanhedrin.

42

 May 25, 2008 at 01:17 PM Shach HAD AN AXE TO GRIND Says:

SHACH WAS DENIED THE OPORTUNITY TO BE ROSH YESHIVA IN LUBAVITCH THERFORE HIS HATRED TOWARDS THEM.

43

 May 25, 2008 at 01:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Have y'all noticed, if you have any criticism for Chabad you are "ingorant" or a Chabad hater.

Regular Jews are not permitted to disagree with anything Chabad. We are not permitted to follow the opinions of OUR rebbes or rebbonim.

We must approve of Chabad or be evil.

And, yes, I do travel. I have davened at Chabad houses around the world. But, first I speak to the Shaliach. If he is a strong Meshichist, I avoid the place.

Even when they are not, I would NOT eat the food at most Chabad houses. I would rather eat a can of tuna for Shabbos, than eat Agri products.

And NO, I am not a Chabad hater. and NO, I am not a misnaged ... but to Chabad I must be a snag.

Another way that I choose if I should daven at a Chabad house, is to ask how many people will be at the minyan. If there are at least 20 men, I can assume that 10 may be Jewish and Shomer Shabbos. If there are only 10 - 15 total men, I am afraid there may not be a truly kosher minyan.

44

 May 25, 2008 at 01:46 PM Anonymous Says:

The word ignorant is a great description for almost all of these posters.

Rav Shach was criticizing the rebbe long before any mishichist issues were around.

And the saying "Talk is cheap" is for everyone here saying that they wouldn't eat at a shliachs house if he was a "suspected mishichist".
I would rather believe the countless stories I heard of people eating at shluchims houses even if they fully disagreed with his beliefs.

45

 May 25, 2008 at 02:21 PM Anonymous Says:

people always had issues with chabad. moshiach is just another excuse & soon they will jump on the wagon. Look in the gmarah, all talmidim said their rebbe was moshiach (sanhedrin).
Where does it say believing the rebbe is moshiach is avoda zara?

46

 May 25, 2008 at 02:25 PM Nisht Kein Chuchem Says:

Granted, Moshiach can be a dead person.

What about the claim that he's still alive? Mature men staying in line with cups in their hands for an empty seat to pour kos shel brucha...!?! (what a sight..) The Rebbe is DEAD!! Isn't this Avoideh Zura?? Then what is?

47

 May 25, 2008 at 02:39 PM THOSE ARE NOT lUBAVITCH Says:

People doing that are not Lubavitch.
The Average Lubavitcher believes his Rebbe Is Moshiach, but they don't wait in line as you describe it.
It's non the less NOT Avoda Zora.

48

 May 25, 2008 at 02:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Just because somone sets up a Chabad outpost & has a beard doesn't in any way make him reliable
& trustworthy if he is an apikorus.
I am sure all agree with that.
The question is only IS he an apikorus or not and what makes one an apikorus.
I think that if someone believes that the REBBE
IS STILL ALIVE and THAT HE IS MOSHIACH & GIVE HIM AN ALIYA etc (they haven't tried hagbah yet)
Then this either is apikorsus or certainly borders on it At least they are certified idiots.
I assume a shochet can't be an imbecile nor an apikorus. Even if this is not specifically codified in the shulchan oruch I think many if not most people would be uncomfortable relying
on a crazy person to do ther shechita.
I have no problem with a chabad fellow wishing that when Moshiach finally does come that he HOPES that the Rebbe will be it.
He was one of greatest gedolim in our times & I'm sure he would have had a chance had he not allowed and even perhaps encouraged his flock
to treat him like Moshiach.
The real Moshicach I think would be humble & protest his people from proclaiming him Moshiach prematurely. It is not a very bright thing to do as it leads to the misguided cultism which eventually inevitably will result in these Meschichistim breaking away (probably by force) from mainstream normal Chabad & they will be nebech lost to Yiddishkeit forever.
Who is responsible for that ?

49

 May 25, 2008 at 03:12 PM Isi Says:

Waiting for a Torah Written Mokor why Chabad are Apikursim? Anyone? It seems so strange that for all the talk no one can produce a single written Mokor.
???????? It makes me wonder whether the accusers are the ones distorting the Torah????????

50

 May 25, 2008 at 03:33 PM Anonymous Says:

About 2000 years ago, some people believed on someone to be the meshiach, & then he was crucified. And they still believe to this curent day that he will return as moshiach. Do u know who they are?!
yes u guessed: "notzrim" !
I'm not comparing anything, just pointing out, where this could get you!

51

 May 25, 2008 at 03:34 PM Boro Parker, USA Says:

You need a mekoor he is NOT Moshiach? Perhaps you also need a mekor that when the sun reigns it's day and when the moon takes over it's night. People that stand in line to give l'chaim to an empty chair, are a little wierd, to say the least.
How about finding one - only one, gadol of our times that agree with this ignorance and stupidity. You mashichisten should bring a mekor not we should have to bring amekor that he's not.
Dou you by any chance skip one Ani maamin.

52

 May 25, 2008 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:

The Rambam says, if someone is davening to anyone else than to Hashem, then it is apikursos.

53

 May 25, 2008 at 03:47 PM shalom Says:

any chabad who would send a fax to the rebbe and belives he is alive is a kofer as he is asking the rebbe to do something for him that is not naturel (not just asking to be misspallel) and that is against the torah. i was just in meron and was disgusted to have to hear over speakers a voice repeating that the rebbe is still alive and is moshiach as if to brainwash everyone there this is how christianty started and the same takkones that the gedolim made then apply now we cannot consider them as practicing jews we must consider them like the early christans were and i am in doubt if a 3rd gen. chabadnik is bchezkas jew we must distance ourselves from them and make it clear to them that they are not a part of us and are starting a new religon that will end up as far from judaisim as all the other religons that are based on the jews are (buddahism chrishtianty etc.) may we be zoche to see all jews return and do god`s will speedly in our days there tears of joy in my eyes when chabad relizes how far they have gone and their leaders lead chabad back to the glorius chassidus that it was 60 years ago

54

 May 25, 2008 at 04:56 PM Pincus Says:

If you are stuck in the middle of nowhere buy some eggs, sardines, tuna or cottage cheese. What do you think people used to do???

55

 May 25, 2008 at 05:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Chochom Adif Minavi!!

The Vilna Gaon has been qustioned for over two hundred years now WE ALL SEE HOW RIGHT HE WAS

56

 May 25, 2008 at 05:33 PM oilom hofuch Says:

and to the big low life before, who benefited from Chabad by staying at their home but not eating there and now bad mouthing the fellow who opened his home for you


you're a low life of the first degree and you're not worthy of saying anything else to you

57

 May 25, 2008 at 05:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Chabad is Amazing, and most of the Mishachistim believe with their heart & soul the Torah, much more than you, so you should learn from them, most of them are very nice people.

58

 May 25, 2008 at 06:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Mr Oilom Hofuch,

See, you prove the point.

1) It is okay to accept sleeping accommodations from someone and not eat his food. If you stayed at a fellow Jew's home and he had cholov akum, you would not eat, and you will not feel like you were insulting him. Would you be a "Low Life" for it?

2) No one is bad mouthing a man by saying he would not eat in his home! Jews have various minhagin. I have had MANY Chabad chassidim stay at my home, many at my food, but some did not eat my food, as I do not use Rubashkin's meat. Was I insulted? No way! I respected their right to prefer certain shechita.

3) Were these Chabad Chassidim "Low Lifes" for accepting my hospitality and not eating my food? I did find them families to eat at whose food was acceptable to them. I was not insulted by these fine people, and would certainly never refer to them as low lifes.

It is funny, a Chabad Sholiach is the one who sent these people to me. He told them all my home is 100% reliably kosher. It is I would made sure they knew whose shechita I used. Many have eaten by me anyway. Some do not, since they wanted Rubashkin only. I respected that.

If I hold that a minyan must be 10 Jewish males who are shomer Shabbos, and avoid a "minyan" which relies on mechallilai Shabbos B'Farhesya, does that make me a low life?
I understand others have different customs and minhagim. I respect that. Why can't some Chabad people understand that about others.

To think that my saying I would not eat at someone's home or Chabad house is NOT bad mouthing him!

What I wrote was, "I would NOT eat the food at most Chabad houses. I would rather eat a can of tuna for Shabbos, than eat Agri products." What part of that makes me a low life?!?!

Notice that it is the Chabad people calling others names, not the reverse.

59

 May 25, 2008 at 06:21 PM Golden Says:

Anon at 5:09 wrote: The Vilna Gaon has been qustioned for over two hundred years now WE ALL SEE HOW RIGHT HE WAS

The Gaon was anti-all-chassidim!

60

 May 25, 2008 at 06:24 PM Jews 4 Lubys Says:

I recently heard a shiur on how xtianity started, beginning with the first "belivers" followed by teh next 200 years or so. It is scary to hear how the Yoshke'niks and the Chabadniks were similar. BH we had a mishelanu to infiltrate and steer them away from beleiving Toras Moshe to having Shabbos on sunday, no mila, no kosher, baptism, etc. (BTW he composed Nishmas while living as the "head galach.")

61

 May 25, 2008 at 06:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Artscroll Sanhedrin 98b4....start reading.....

62

 May 25, 2008 at 06:42 PM Golden Says:

I know of one Godel who refused to daven in a minyan that included a mishachist - instead he davened byechidus and was b'simcha that he was mivatel the minyan.

63

 May 25, 2008 at 07:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Chabad Rocks they have over 4000 Shluchim who are Mekarev Yidden Daily.

64

 May 25, 2008 at 08:07 PM Anonymous Says:

sanhedrin 98b does not say that soemone can pinpoint a mashiach from the departed ones. If soemone is a candidate it is daniel. Rambam who is the halachik authority rules that mashiach must be from the lving. Most importantly: he rules that someone who was beleived to be the massiah and didn't make it (being the redemption) is CERTAINLY not the messiah.

65

 May 25, 2008 at 08:23 PM anonymous Says:

Also, some have a custom to color eggs on lag b'omer does that make them xtian because the goyim do it on easter? what about costums for purim? the goyim do on halloween.. I know many yidden using xmass lights for their sukah.. claiming a conection between chabad meshichistim and xtians is 100% wrong!

66

 May 25, 2008 at 08:33 PM anonymous Says:

BTW, your gedolim attacked him while he was alive... no one ever came out saying they were sorry.. supposedly the tefillin campaign was kofer too..the baal hatanya was put in cherem a few hundred years ago and branded a cult.. some hate just never dies.

67

 May 25, 2008 at 08:51 PM Rambam Says:

Frankly, I am not going to get into the pro or anti chabad discussion, it is a lost cause before it even begins. As a general rule, when people are not being rational (on either end of an argument), it is futile to try and inject a modicum of reason into the argument, since most parties to this argument are expressing emotive, rather then intellectual, sentiments.

However, I would like to point out one thing that has surprisingly been left out of the current discussion:

In perek yud aleph halacha daled of Hilchos Melochim, Rambam is brutally clear that when it comes to an individual possibly being moshiach, there are two seprarte but cumulative steps:
1. A person can be "bechezkas moshiach" which means the person has accomplished certain things set out by Torah which qualify him as being potenitally moshiach, since he has all the qualifications.
Now we move to step 2: IF that person also builds the third beis hamikdosh and does other things as well, then he is "Moshiach vadai", i.e., he is definitely moshiach.

I don't know any chabadnils who say that the rebbe is or ever was moshiach vadai, since it seems to most people that the beis hamikdosh in yerushalayim was not rebuilt. However, it is abundantly clear from all the prerequisites Rambam sets out and from the nosei keilim to that Rambam, that the Rebbe could certainly have been bechezkas moshiach when he was alive b'guf gashmi. In fact, I doubt any gadol worth their "gadlus" would deny that according to Rambam the Rebbe qualified as bechezkas moshiach prior to gimmul Tammuz.

Apparently, the only issue is whehter the Rebbe can still be bechezkas moshiach today, in a post gimmul tammuz world where the rebbe is not alive le'einei bassar. Since we have a befeirushe gemarah in Sanhedrin tzadek Ches that says that moshiach could be from those not living, one thing becomes clear:
Since MOST intellgigent, non-lubavitvher-hating, frum Jews believe the Rebbe once was bechezkas moshiach and since moshiach could be from those not alive, it follows that the Rebbe still retains his chezkas moshiach. Thus, it is hardly kfira for any Jew to believe that the Rebbe is still bechezkas moshiach, together with other gedolim who may have that chzakah as well (but I don't know who those gedolim are, since no other gadol that I know of fulfills Rambam's preconditions for that chazakah as set out in Hilchos Melachim. I am not saying no such gedolim exist, just that I don't know of them).

If one will argue that the Rebbe can not be moshiach vadai ever, since he is not alive le'einei basar, then how do we reconcile the gemarah in Sanhedrin where a person could be moshiach even if not from those that are livng, and that person has yet to build the beis hamikdosh. It seems clear that a person who was bechezkas moshiach but is no longer alive to build the beis hamikdosh, that such a person can be raised through techiyah to be Moshiach and build the beis hamikdosh hashlishi. Any other explanation, however it may appeal to some non-Lubavitch ears, simply disregards the PLAIN TEXTUAL reading of Rambam Hilchos Melochim in conjunction with Sanhedrin Tzadek Ches.

If someone has a halachic or other problem with this analysis, I have no problem if you raise that issue. All I ask is that you respond in an intelligent and respectful way. I especially ask that you deal with Rambam from Hilchos Melochim set out earlier and show why, according to Torah-true halacha as Rambam sets out, and according to the Gemara in Sanhedrin 98, why the Rebbe can no longer be bechezkas moshiach. Please don't respond with the usual anger and emotional based diatribes - g-d knows there have enough of those on this thread already.

In sum, I have no problem with any single Lubavitcher who believes, and Halcha gives him that right, that his Rebbe was and still is bechezkas moshiach. Let Hashem decide if the Rebbe is to be moshiach vadai or not, but certainly Lubavitchers are not kofrim for believing the Rebbe was and is bechezkas moshiach.

68

 May 25, 2008 at 09:02 PM anonymous Says:

Rambam does say "neherag" and doesn't use the term to die.

69

 May 25, 2008 at 10:10 PM rambam really says Says:

That a person who was beleived to be messiah, ie. "cheskat maashiach" ie. presumed messiah, but "loy hitzliach" to bring to building of beys hamikdash and ingathering of the jewish is KNOWN that heis not the messiah. If you contend that the LR fit the "cheskat mashiach" bill (which many would legitiamtely claim that this is NOT TRUE AT ALL) then CErtainly you run into this clear halacha that once "loy hitzliach" he cannot be mashiach.

(what you write aboout rambam and Sanhedrin 98: It is surprising for a Lubavitcher to write this argument for it was none other than the LR who claimed that the Rambam does not necessarily follow this or that gemarah, so it could very well be that he was machria based on another gemarah).

70

 May 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM Rambam really does say Says:

2 questions:
1. Do you have another presently viable candidate for "chezkas moshiach"? (I'm not saying there isn't)

2. even if there is, why do some commentators here have such beef with Chabadniks for feeling and believing that of all thje possibilties, they feel their rebbe is the strongest candidate - isn't this emunas hatzadikim, etc?

TO summarize, the issue is:
If Chabadniks say/beleive something not according to halacha, then I understand the gripe, But if there is no halachic problem (and there is none, in fact), then why is a lubavitvher not justly entitled to believe that his rebbe is the best candidate for moshiach status if hasham chooses him? would not any follower of a gadol wish and expect for hasham to pick their rebbe/rav to be moshiach?

71

 May 25, 2008 at 10:44 PM Lubav on the front lines Says:

a few comments:

a) Xtians practice baptism, maybe we should be mevatel mikva. Catholics believe that the wafer and wine that they drink IS the body and blood of "you know who", maybe we should stay away from kiddush and matza. It is absurd to say that following something that is a clear inyan in shas is being an xtian, where do you think that they got it from, like everyone else.

b) To the people who are armchair poskim, look in the gemara in sanhedrin, and you will see that it says "k'gon doniel ish chamudos", the word k'gon means "just like". If you don't like the drosha, that's fine, but don't call it kefira, ch"v.

c) I understand that people have a problem (as do I) with those who try to convince others that the Rebbe is moshiach and no one else can be. I personally make no excuses for myself when people ask me what my personal wish and hope is, that MY Rebbe is moshiach, as a chossid, but I wouldn't have a problem with someone else wanting their Rebbe/godol to be moshiach, it's a natural thing.

d) I have no problem with someone not eating in my house just as I won't eat in most other people's houses.

e) It is fascinating to see that after repeated requests, no one has brought up a mokor that I am a kofer. You won't find one!!! so give it up and let's live together in harmony.

Am Yisroel Chai

72

 May 25, 2008 at 10:47 PM rambam really says Says:

1. This is another distortion by Lubavitchers: *Nowhere* is there a *necessity* for someone to be "cheskas mashiach" at any given time.

2. IF anything: "cheskat mashiach" of the *rambam* speaksof a *living* person!

3. what is emunat tzadikim got to do with *halachik* mashiach? That is ruled by Halacha and must fit halachik criteria. IF it does not then to state that it does is "megaleh panim batorah sheloh kehalacha".

"best candidate" for mashiach status is another crock. That appliesperhaps when the person is alvie! When he is no longer with us, then "best candidate" is just silly! There is nothing with which to base which is the "Best candidate that *Hashem* has in stock.

But in any event: "cheskat mashiach" and mashaich halachikally have criteria and since to claim that the LR fits any of these criteria is *against* Halacha there is certainly reason for people to have a gripe with stubborn chabadnicks who do not see in front of them that they are misreading rambam and making a false religion out of their distortions.

73

 May 25, 2008 at 11:09 PM Anonymous Says:

"# Anonymous Says:
comments - arrow yo meshichistan get ur act together and grow up first the shvatze r the problem now the star k go get urself a life and stop blaming and attaking the world

05-25-2008 - 10:25 AM"

what do you mean by this comment?

74

 May 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM rambam really says Says:

a) no, no, mikvah is a define jewish concept and eternal mitzvah with clear parameers and loh tihye muchlefet. So is "matza and kiddush". But we do find in our holy traditions that things that were optional and at a time a mitzva was fulfiiled with it, like "matzevas" when it was used and abused for avodah zarah it became "asher saneh Hashem elokecha!".

Messiah from the dead is not a "mitzvah" or a must in tradition. Certainly that certain avenue has proven to be disastrous and tragic to klal yisrael and to false remdemtion Klal Yisrael has every right and Ruach Hakodesh to reject certain avenuews to be declared that IS the medium to redemption.

And of course, "Second coming" has no tradition in yiddishkeyt, and there no tradition for someone to be declared messiah and dissapeared and the come back as messiach in jewish tradition.

That in addition to the most problamtic misconception of L: That Rambam a) rejects the proposition of sanhedrin 98b in halacha, b) and most important he emphatically denies that a person who was thought to be the messiah and did not succeed to bring about the final redemption he is CERTAINLY NOT THE MASHIACH!

b) IF you interpret "k'gon..." "just like" then FOR SURE it is exemplary of the individual of having *qualities* of daniel but Daniel mamash! If otoh is "kgan lav davka" as the first interpretation of Rashi then it is DANIEL AND NONE ELSE! Please *learn* and listen to what you are saying!

c)The problem is not only with those who vigorously try to convince others, but with the assertion that he IS! There is nothing in our tradition that backs the claim that he *is* even going to be! Even the most erroneous of your interpretations about Daniel does not give *you* or any *chossid* to assert that their departed REbbe is going to the mashiach. The most you can scratch from sanhedrin 98 is that s*some of the the *living* tzadikim were held by their pupils that they would become mashaich but that did *not* continue after their passing! as one can hnoestly see in sanhedrin 98! Where does one find that masses of pupils and chassids of rebbes and tannaim or amoraim held their rebbe to "Hope" to be the mashiach after their passing? NO WHERE!

e) "so give it up and let's live together in harmony.Am Yisroel Chai"

And let's hope that chabad gives up teaching their youth about the lack of torah fearing status of other jews and they do not rule out amongst their people eating from other shechitas for lacking yirat shamayim etc. AM YIsrael Chai!

75

 May 25, 2008 at 11:24 PM rambam really says Says:

b) should read "but NOT Daniel mamash".

76

 May 25, 2008 at 11:39 PM Anonymous Says:

1) Where does it say that part of Chassidus is to believe that one’s Rebbe is in fact the Moshiach? That’s a distortion of Torahs HaCHassidus. (Didn’t the Lubavicher Rebbe write a Sefer Torah with which to GREET the Moshiach? Obviously it could not have been him.

2) Why when it was מחיים חיותו, while he was still alive, everyone quoted from the Rambam, now that he’s not, we forget the Rambam and quote the Germarrah?

77

 May 26, 2008 at 12:27 AM CH resident Says:

1. not even 1% of Chabad are ultra Mishicahist,its a handful of mainly bochurim.

2. if you are not sure don't starve, you could just ask or look out for the yellow pin.

78

 May 26, 2008 at 03:21 AM shliach Says:

im putting up a sign, messhechist just so that they DONT stop by, do u have a daily minyan? do u have a daily breakfast? do you have a daily shower? do you have a daily weekend? so me my wife and and my kids can stop by, so that we can then go home and start putting you on our email list, week by week sending me aevery refuah slima annoncement from boro park lakewood and far rock away,
people people, i come from the other side my family are direct line from the Vilna Goen my pride and joy is that i am a Chossid a shliach living yiddishkiet to the extreme in a desert in the wild west.
stop by any time for your daily minyan breakfast and the rest.
Gezunthiet ala geonim,
i have no grudges, you are all Tinok Shenishbar...
see you soon .....call me on one of your 4 cell phones :)

79

 May 26, 2008 at 05:55 AM anonymous Says:

Rambam really says 11:22pm:
Who says "second coming" so you would deny techiyas hameisim ? Why does everything the goyim believe make it automatically assur overriding the torah?

We do kriya and hishtachaviya on yom kipur.. so do the goyim..

The whole point of the moshiach "madness" is rooted from "achake lo b'chol yom sheyavo" we cry out "ad masai"

Many have forgotten what galus is, we seem content with galus. "who needs moshiach" I hear..

I dont understand your objections, you cant claim the rebbe was a navi sheker because he was right time and again..

He wasent mechate klal yisrael c'v adaraba "v'rabim heyshiv m'avon"

No one can claim to know exactly what will happen. so some decide to play it safe and totaly push chabad away from judaism.

The problem is, this started in the baal hatanya's time, and was very existent when the rebbe was alive. Machlokes l'shem shamayim is GOOD! but sinas chinam is what pushes off the geula.. examine where yoiur interests lie.. is it his death that bothers you ? see below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elazar_Shach#cite_note-3

Shach accused Schneerson of fomenting a cult of crypto-messianism around himself.[5] He objected to Schneerson's call for "forcing" the Messiah's appearance. When Schneerson's followers identified him as possibly being the Messiah, Shach called for a complete boycott of Chabad, its institutions and projects by its constituents.[6] In 1988 Shach explicitly denounced Schneerson as a meshiach sheker (false messiah).[7] Shach also compared Chabad and Schneerson to the followers of the 17th century false messiah Sabbatai Zevi.[8]

80

 May 26, 2008 at 09:50 AM SUPERYUMMY Says:

RABBI POLLACK WORKS FOR KLAL YISROEL. HE THEREFORE CANNOT HIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE FANATICS.

81

 May 26, 2008 at 10:16 AM Anonymous Says:

to 5:55 am

Nevius was stopped long ago. Last ones that I know are חגי זכריה ומלאכי. Anyone who claims NOW to be a נביא is either... Rabbi Miller explains this to as to be a safeguard for Klal Yisroel, to protect us from false movements which would not be long in coming (xians, moslems).

There were MANY true Gedolim who had Ruach HaKodesh, were able to predict the future, they were not Moshiach.

82

 May 26, 2008 at 10:22 AM Isi Says:

Nevius will come back BEFORE moshiach's arrival, according to the Rambam and other sources.

I guess you just weren't aware of those sources.

83

 May 26, 2008 at 10:26 AM Isi Says:

To summarize:

Those who wish to claim that the Rebbe is Moshiach have more than enough Halachic material to base it on as being 100% within Halachic Judaism, if they should be doing that is a different question, but not a Halachic question.

But those who say that calling the Rebbe Moshiach is Apikorsus have time and time again failed to come up with even one Mokor. So to label tens of thousands of people Apikorsim based on your distortions of Torah seems a little wrong and misguided.

Maybe better use your energy to be Mekarev other Yidden so that we can be Zoiche to the Geula sooner.

84

 May 26, 2008 at 11:05 AM Proud Lubavitcher Ben Acar Ben from the Vilna Gaon Says:

Shach had an axe to grind with Lubavitch.

He was rejected as Rosh Yeshiva in Lubavitch during the time when Rav Prevarsky Ztz"l was there.

Todays Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Prevarsky, was a talmid in Lubavitch while shach came for a try out.

He simply coud'nt make it!!!

85

 May 26, 2008 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Like I posted before- Anon.:- 5/25-12:06,
I see most of the Lubobs and pro lubobs, keep quoting the gemarah & Rambam on Moshiach. This BTW is because the Rebbe told them to learn this, how come he never told them to learn something else? Also I see they don't read the posts, they only respond with their emotions like anger. If they would have read what I wrote,
that people consider them Kofrim or Mishigoyim or both because some of them believe that ONLY the Rebbe can be Moshiach. Find me one Mekor (Gemorrah or Rambam or something else) that says no one else can be Moshiach if you think or know (like you Lubobs) that someone is Moshiach. As a matter of fact, I think the gemorrah says R' Akiva thought Bar Kochbah was Moshiach, but when he died, the gemorrah says he made a mistake. I know, only R' Akiva can make a mistake, not you Lubobs. The Rebbe has to be Moshicah--Dead or Alive. They should hang up posters with a picture of the Rebbe--Wanted Moshiach: Dead or Alive!

86

 May 26, 2008 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:

To Rambam says 8:51pm "Since MOST intellgigent, non-lubavitvher-hating, frum Jews believe the Rebbe once was bechezkas moshiach"
What sheer drivel & nonsense that you are basing your whole argument on it's getting more & more clear to me that unfortunately there may be no
normal lubavitchers around. I am sure that if you took a poll of non-lubavitchers they would all 100% tell you they never entertained the idea that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was BECHETZKAS MOSCHIACH.
Besides, a sign of the emes Moschiah is that all will believe in him & he will be a uniter of klall yisroel. There is no way that you can say that the Rebbe united klall yisroel & all beleived in him - He was in fact always controversial. More so now.
Rav Schach was right.
I always thought he was being radical and a kanoi I now see that he could see through all the facade & realized what this is all about and it's nisht yiddishkeit r'l. it's a dangerous personality cult - period.

87

 May 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM Rambam to Anon 11:14 Says:

Just wanted to clarify, since it seems you misunderstood me:
I did not say that most non-Lubavtich-hating jews SAID the Rebbe was Bechezkas moshiach, I thought I said, and I certainly only meant to say, that such people, being open minded as they are, would likely agree that the Rebbe in all likelihood fulfilled the requirements of chezkas mosihiach.

This is not to say that such people agreed or disagreed that the Rebbe was or was not moshiach, only that open minded people COULD understand the correctness of the notion that the Rebbe was bechezkas moshiach.

So, of course non lubabs did not entertain the notion that the Rebbe was possibly or probably bechezkas moshiach, since non lubabs would have no reason to even think about this. However, those that did, or do now in retrospect, likely agree that prior to gimmul Tammauz the Rebbe had shown he was at least a viable candidate to be moshiach, because he fulfilled the Ramabam's requirements to be called bechezchas shehu mohiach.

88

 May 26, 2008 at 12:41 PM Anonymous Says:

In Drashos Chasam Sofer, it is written Moshiach himself will be unaware of his calling until he is informed to reveal himself.

89

 May 26, 2008 at 01:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Akiva did not make a mistake. Bar Kochba was B'chezkas Moshiach. Rebbe Akiva does not make mistakes.

90

 May 26, 2008 at 02:14 PM Benzion Says:

Anonymous Says:
Would "Dr." Pollack eat at their Chabad House if he were stuck somewhere in Timbuktu?

So therfore he have to be macshil people who wouldn't, also it's a big differents when yova a choice and when you dont, maybe does japan prisoners need to reject Chabad food if they ???would have bin offered [MEE YITON VHUOO]

91

 May 26, 2008 at 02:51 PM Anonymous Says:

bar kochva was killed

92

 May 26, 2008 at 04:40 PM Machlokes .... Ad Mosai ..... Says:

I think that that there is a lot here that is not being addressed by either side, and there really is a need for change in the entire approach. To be truthful I am close to 50 years old, from a non- Lubav family, learned in litvish Yeshiva & Mesivta and always had an affinity for the LR ZY'A, and Darchei Hachassidus b'chlal. I attended Tomchei T'mimim after Mesivta married non Chabad & sent my children to non-Chabad yeshivos. The reason for giving you my history is to let both sides know that I am objective.
I think the "critics " out there who never attended a Farbrengen of the Rebbe, or met him personally just cannot get the perspecitve of who the Rebbe was, or what he was all about. This is very true of the young generation of 20's and 30's year olds who belive they understand everything and see all very clearly as well as many of the older Litvishe critics, who were very critical of the Rebbe and even of the FR, which I believe they saw as their calling as the ones carrying the torch of the original Misnagdim.

I feel that much of Chabad took the LR's Mivtza moshiach out of context,( with good intention) both before and after gimmel Tamuz. The Rebbe wanted every individual to do anything and everything possible to bring Moshiach. From my perspective this did not mean taking out billboards, full page newspaper ads, and bumper stickers welcoming the Rebbe as Moshiach. His direction was to learn the halachos and inyonei Moshiach u'geulah, internalize all, spread the word to others and awaken a longing among all for moshiach with all that comes along with it in their personal avoidah and to affect others both close and far from yiddishkeit. There is a very famous Sicah of the rebbe that the meshichsiten always quote where the rebbe says he has done all he could and he is now giving it over to you i.e. the Chassidim. They use this to claim the Rebbe gave it over to them to be mamlich him as Moshiach. How untrue, he was clearly frustrated that all he had done to this point did not yet arrive to his goal of "bringing moshaich" and maybe he knew that the future did not bode well for him and he was giving the campagin over to he chassidim. In his continuation just a few seconds later he bemoans that that were there a minyan of yidden who really wanted the geulah with an emmes moshiach would should surely have come, and then says a few seconds later even 3 or 4 ??? ( from memory so maybe I am not quoting verbatim, but this is certainly the gist of it for someone who understands the original yiddish)Obviously he was not talking about the guys putting the newspaper ads, or bumper stickers or touting him as moshiach.

Chabad pushes the "Rebbe" moreso than any other chassidus because of what the Rebbe means to each and every chossid. The kind of mesiras nefesh of the shluchim and chasidim is something really not found anywhere else, and that is because the rebbe and the chasidus instilled an ahavas hashem and ahavas yisroel unparalled. Part of the psche of this is the steadfastness of decades of keeping yiddishkeit alive under the communists, and not bowing to any pressure from doing what's right or demanded of a yid. I think that many outside of chassidus b'chlal and particularly outside chabad b'prat have a problem understanding this concept and just cannnot relate to it. Chabad used the charismatic personality of the rebbe as a tool for outreach, much like others may take the Torah Codes as a bait for someone's interest in judaism. and this got out of control. At the same time I clearly remember all those who were certain while the rebbe was sick, that should he pass away there will be a massive exodus from religious observance, mental breakdowns, and shmad r'l.

To those who say the rebbe is alive .... Yes, the rebbe is alive in all the wonderful mishpachos and Jews who are today shomrei Torah umitzvos because of the Rebbe's breakthroughs in outreach efforts, his Torah insights and direction ( mah zaroy bachaim, af hu bachiim). To those who say the rebbe is physically alive ........I believe they have gone too far, and are beyond the pale. However I wouldn't say they should be thrown out of the fold. I also would not paint the entire Chabad with the same brush - these people are a minority, and I think that all meshichistin do not have that belief.

The Rebbe certainly had his critics, many because they did not agree with his approach. Today decades later many organizations adopted some of the same approaches, he was clearly way ahead of his time. Many of the critics believed that they were lochem milchemes h', many were misinformed with distorted info - as was the Vilna Gaon in his time. Way before there was a mivtzah moshiach there were many foul statements about Chabad as a whole, about the R' Rashab's mikvah, about the yayin, etc.. Chabad who perceive the "litvish" velt as to be in lockstep with such positions and statements took an understandably negative attitude towards all such yeshivos.

As if the Rebbe needs votes of confidence - there were countless g'dolim who were in contact with the rebbe and had no problem with his derech, or agendas. Many were afraid to speak out in public liable to be the target of antagonistic acts directed at them. I was at a melavah malkah in Boro Park on 19 Kislev the yahrtzeit the Mezritcher magid & the day of release of the baal hatanyah. One of the speakers was the Masgiach Ruchni of Torah Vodaas, the forum was not about the Rebbe, yet the Mashgiach spent more than half his time speaking glowingly of the Rebbe,his ineteractions with the rebbe as well as relating one of the many many "baal shemska" ( my term not his - i don't remember his exact words)meetings with the Rebbe. I am not propping this up to say look here the LR has a hechsher, my point is that the Mashgiach felt it incumbent on himself to talk about the rebbe even though it was not the forum and he is not lacking topics to discuss. I can only conclude that he did it to counter some of the ugly derisions against the LR over the past years.

At the end of the day my hope would be that all sides would simmer down and begin to appreciate the good out there. There is so much good to be found in the greater yiddishe velt, nobody says that someone is less mekusher to their rebbe if they look around and listen to Torah and mehalchim from physically living tzadikim. There are a lot of contemporary issues that need to be addressed in all communities, and I think many positive things can be accomplished if people would let the outside in a bit.

I think that the opponents of Chabad should open their eyes and see the true good that Chabad does all over the world and accept it. It may not be your brand or style of judaism, but it is 100% pure Torah true judaism.

All should realize that the Chabad houses set up all over the world were not intended as Hachnosas orchim centers. People tell me "Chabad does such great things, when I travel I have kosher food to eat, and people to be with and daven with Shabbos and weekdays". Understand that the Rebbe's intention in sending out people all over was not to make Jewish travel easier ( it's a great add-on).The intention was to bring the RBShel'Olam to evry yid wherever he may be. If you benefit from it, that's just "gravy" as they say.


Ahavas Yisroel and Ahavas Chinom is not just for the 3 weeks and days of sefirah !!

May we all be Zoche to the geulah and binyan Bais hamikdosh with Moshiach Tzidkeinu immediately !






93

 May 26, 2008 at 04:45 PM Dag Says:

Do we have evidence that the Rebbe is from the line of Dovid?

94

 May 26, 2008 at 07:24 PM anonymous Says:

Dag,
There are those that say he traces his lineage to david through rashi who was from shlomo's brother (supposedly) but I have read its through the maharal mi'prauge.

There was a proffesor in israeli dati leumi type that spent a long time tracing the rebbe's yichus but I cant remember the results.

95

 May 26, 2008 at 08:07 PM Rabbi Klein Says:

There seems to be a serious misconception regarding the gemara and the rambam quoted above.

The rambam clearly states (hilchos melachim perek yud aleph halacha hay): (I transalated it to english for the benefit of those who might not understand the lashon hakodesh words written in english) "and if he was not sucessful or he died, obviously he wasn't moshiach, and he is like all the kings from beis dovid the completes and the kosher that died, and Hashem only estblished him only to test the public as it says..." The rambam says in the previous halacha that if the potential moshiach does a number of things then he is bechezkas moshiach. True. But only if he remains alive or actually accomplishes what he is supposed to do. but if he didn't or he died, then the above rambam states that he's NOT the moshiach and Hashem was just testing us.

The gemara is saying exactly that same thing. For the benifit of those who don't recall the words, this is what the gemara (in sanhedrin tzaddik ches amud beis six lines from the bottom) says: "if thae moshiach is from those alive AN EXAMPLE would be rabbeinu hakadosh, if the moshiach was from those who died AN EXAMPLE would be daniel" which means in accordance with the above rambam, that who could have been from the generations before, daniel. But now he obviously isn't, because he was niftar.

This was and is the problem of the meshichists. Your Rebbe was a great man, a true Adam Gadol. but he can't be the moshiach. for the heilige gemara and the rambam state this clearly.

However the rest of chabad is a wonderful part of klal yisroel who do their part in being mekarev rechokim to an amazing degree, and who give of themselves for the tzibbur. But the small minority of them who mistakely believe that their rebbe IS the moshiach, that is very unfortunate.

96

 May 26, 2008 at 08:24 PM rambam really says Says:

"Those who wish to claim that the Rebbe is Moshiach have more than enough Halachic material to base it on as being 100% within Halachic Judaism",

There is NO Halachik basis whatsoever to claim that the REbbe IS (or will definitely be) hte mashiach! In fact, RAmbam: a) rules that mashiach is from the living, b) and specially writes that someoneo who was regarded as the presumed messiahc and did not succeeed to lead to the redemtpion is KNOWN THAT HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH!

Maybe it is not apikorsus, but it is LYING AND DISTORTING TORAH AND HALACHA and creating a false creed without any shred of truth!

"I did not say that most non-Lubavtich-hating jews SAID the Rebbe was Bechezkas moshiach, I thought I said, and I certainly only meant to say, that such people, being open minded as they are, would likely agree that the Rebbe in all likelihood fulfilled the requirements of chezkas mosihiach".


Why do you think that he "fulfilled the requirements of cheskas mashiach"? In fact he did not: For instance Rambam writes that one of the requirements is that he fights the "milchamot Hashem" which in the langugage of the rambam means that he will fight the enemies of Israel. I'm not aware that he fought Arafat, Syria, IRaq etc.

" However, those that did, or do now in retrospect, likely agree that prior to gimmul Tammauz the Rebbe had shown he was at least a viable candidate to be moshiach, because he fulfilled the Ramabam's requirements to be called bechezchas shehu mohiach".

You guys have been taught to learn false pshat in all these matters. Even if you can hold that your REbbe is the "most likely candidate" it does NOT mean that he is "cheskat mashiach". In fact he was not! Stop causing divisiveness and fights especially when you are not even right in your points.

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 May 26, 2008 at 08:30 PM What a great read Says:

The long note posted by "machlokes...ad mosai..." was a well-written, logical, and touching piece. Very impressive - Yasher Koach.

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 May 26, 2008 at 09:11 PM Mark Says:

I remeber reading an article about the research this professor did. It was very interesting how he traced the Lubavitch Rebbe to Dovid Hamelech.

I believe it was in Haaretz english edition.

99

 May 26, 2008 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Regarding Moshiach min Hamaysim, see Yeshuos meshicho page 77.

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 May 26, 2008 at 09:47 PM Hayom yom Says:

In the Sefer Hayom Yom (a collection of chassidic aphorisms and teachings put together by the Rebbe in the 1940's before he became Rebbe) in the very beginning, where it has short biographies of all chabad rebbe's, traces the Baal HaTanya directy to the Maharal, who it is known traced his lineage to Dovid HaMelech.

As the Rebbe traces his lineage very directly from the Baal HaTanya, the Rebbe undoubtedly comes from Mi'zera Dovid.

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 May 26, 2008 at 09:47 PM rambam really says Says:

" Regarding Moshiach min Hamaysim, see Yeshuos meshicho page 77."

And also see Rambam Kings chapter 11! especially when there is no source to identify someone with certainty and specially when he categorically rejects a person regarded as mashiach but not brought the redemption to be the mashaich!

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 May 26, 2008 at 11:03 PM Moshe Says:

I am a follower of the Rebbe zt"l who is thoroughly disgusted with the Meshichistim and wishes that the entire frum world would wake up already and take a serious stand against this moronic cult.

Years ago, on June 12, 1996, the Rabbinical Council of America adopted a resolution stating: "In light of disturbing developments which have recently arisen in the Jewish community, the Rabbinical Council of America in convention assembled declares that there is not and has never been a place in Judaism for the belief that Moshiach ben David [Messiah son of David] will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial, and resurrection before completing it."

The Meshichist-Lubavitcher sect by its behavior in the past 14 years has indeed proven itself to be equivalent to the christians and shabbati-tzvinicks who believe in a second coming for their dead messiah. In Torah Judaism there never has been and never can be such belief. It is clearly absurd and appikorsis for them to proclaim now that the Rebbe zt"l never died or will return from death as Moshiach. Just look at the company they keep.

They also fit the definition of appikorsim and minim in that they do all they can to physically torment and persecute other Lubavitchers and other Yidden who do not go along with their warped ideas.

Anyone who tries to defend the Meshichistim should realize that by doing so they are contributing to a huge chilul Hashem, and doing very serious damage all of Yiddishkeit - and especially they are damaging the rest of the Lubavitcher chassidim who are sick of these Meshichistim and hate what they are doing. Do not support or stick up for these enemies of the true Chabad teaching. They are destroying everything the Rebbe zt”l stood for.

No one should be fooled by their phony arguments that their belief is mainstream and mutar. It assuredly is not. Midevar sheker trichok, distance yourself from their fabrications and deceptions. The Rebbe zt”l himself many times stated emphatically that Moshiach must be from the living, and quoted the Rambam as the universally accepted authority for this halacha. Before the Rebbe zt”l was niftar there was no question about this, and Lubavitchers widely publicized the halacha that Moshiach must be from the living. Then after the Rebbe zt”l was niftar these hypocrites decided that they would change the halacha – and they don’t care if they have to tear up the Rebbe zt”l words in order to put forward their own agenda.

Anyone who has any authority, I implore you, for G-d’s sake and for the sake of our holy Torah, please do not allow these proponents of falsity to hold positions of authority in any aspects of Torah-true Judaism. Most assuredly, the faster this is done the faster the true Moshiach will arrive. Thank you.

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 May 26, 2008 at 11:54 PM a yid Says:

so all the posters here have never seen the rebbe live and never set foot in CH and never had anything to do with lubavitch only to spew hatred and anti everything, bugg off and leave us alone, we know you will hate us no matter what..

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 May 27, 2008 at 12:08 AM a yid Says:

i invite all of you to come to CH in the name of "fairness" for a shaboss or event, buy a few books in the stores here, that talk about moshiach and you will have all the aswers you were discussing here and much more, and LEARN what and why chabad believes that the rebbe is moshiach, and why we cant leave go of such a holy tzaddik and bury him and just move on .. move on TO WERE? LUBAVICH IS NOTHING WITHOUT THE REBBE< just so that you fake chabadniks, anti's and "guised admires" who turn your backs on the rebbe and all he stood for only because of your feeble minds that cannot comprehend what was gimmel tamuz, and cannot see beyond a wall of the humans fleshy eyes.. and that all this hatered stems from IGNORANGE, it has been long established before gimnmel tamuz a full array of books, banners, radio adds, bumper stickers, songs, and what not.. "with the haskomo AND brocho of the rebbe, about the coming of moshiach and that the rebbe is moshiach, there are plenty of videos available with the rebbe seeking out yechi adoineinu over other songs for full years.. and once anyone with a brain reads, sees

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 May 27, 2008 at 12:11 AM Moshe Teitz Says:


In the Rambam You quote it says the word NEHERAG, if he was killed, like bar Kochvo, then and only then does he lose his chazakah and we know he is not the chosen one.

That means if moshiach dies a natural death and not kiled then he maintains his chazakah as moshiach.

For all those Am Horatzim that don't know how to learn a Blatt Gemora please make use of the ArtScroll, and check out Sanhedrin tzadik ches umud beis where it states clearly that "If Moshiach is from the living.... and if not..."
Meaning to say that Moshiach could be from the living and from the departed.

It says it clearly in the ArtScoll who is no friend of Lubavich.

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 May 27, 2008 at 01:15 AM Anonymous Says:

To Mr. Teitz & all others who keep defending Lubobs,
Even if your right, even if moshiach can come from the dead, even if he is/was b'chezkas Moshiach, how can their shitah- that it can't be anyone else be os-gehalten???

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 May 27, 2008 at 04:47 AM Matzahlocal101 Says:

Actually Yerushalmi In Brochos Perek 2:4 says it much better. (From: Omar reb Yermiya, maya vesrim zikanim...) The the fact that Karbon Ha'ayda and the Pnai Moshe (The Gra's rebbe) refer to the possibility of moshiach coming from the dead is probably a red flag and Rabbi Heineman wouldn't have hired them either. The bottom line is, Shas Bavli and Yerushalmi, Gaonim, Rishonim, and Achronim spoke about the possibility of moshiach coming from the dead. If Lubavitch hadn't taken up this subject it would have still been OK. Since Lubavitch took it up it's become "treif posul". Rabbi Akiva probably wouldn't have gotten the job either as he said Bar kochba was Moshiach. Bottom line, before Lubavitch got involved Moshiach wasn't a reality, it was a nice way to end a drasha. Now that people talk about Moshiach in the streets it's a "X-tian idea", that, despite the fact that one concept that X-tianity TOOK FROM Yiddishkeit, is the belief that Moshiach is coming, as stated in the uncensored Rambam.

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 May 27, 2008 at 08:32 AM rambam really says Says:

To Moshe Teitz

"In the Rambam You quote it says the word NEHERAG, if he was killed, like bar Kochvo,.."

Please actually *read* the Rambam: it says (also) "loy hitzliach": if the presumed messiah did not succeed to bring the final redemtion he is known that he is NOT the mashiach.

"For all those Am Horatzim that don't know how to learn a Blatt Gemora please make use of the ArtScroll, and check out Sanhedrin tzadik ches umud beis where it states clearly that "If Moshiach is from the living.... and if not..."
Meaning to say that Moshiach could be from the living and from the departed.

It says it clearly in the ArtScoll who is no friend of Lubavich."

That is for the amohoratzim who suffice with snippets from here and there...but for those who want to understand what it actually means they must learn rashi and more: RAshi explains that it either means: a) that it "was" Daniel AND NOT ANY OTHER PERSON, b) or that the gemoroh is not talking actually about that person being the mashich but using his personality as an example for someone who would be the mashiach.

In either case Gemarah does NOT support L claims; on the contrary: it either tells you that if you want to identify someone deceased as the messiah you must go thousands of years back to DAniel or it actually does NOT even mean to depict a deceased person as messiah.

But all this is neither here or there, for in issues of mashiach the LR has taught that *only* Halachik authority is the Rambam and not medrashim or selected statements of talmud.


Therefore: "Actually Yerushalmi In Brochos Perek 2:4 says it much better. (From: Omar reb Yermiya, maya vesrim zikanim...) The the fact that Karbon Ha'ayda and the Pnai Moshe (The Gra's rebbe) refer to the possibility of moshiach coming from the dead ..." is totally irrelevant to the final tradition jews have as the Rambam is the only authority on the matter. The rest is only rethoric
and talks that increase animosity between jews for no reason.

Likewise, silly statments like "before Lubavitch got involved Moshiach wasn't a reality, it was a nice way to end a drasha. Now that people talk about Moshiach in the streets", what kind of "reality" is it for talk about a mashiach that is not accepted by the Rambam? And what kind of reality is mashiach when it brings anomsity and fights and accusations of "deep hate" about jews? Is this what mashiach is supposed to accomplish? And is the reality of his coming boil down to add divisisness? I thought that the "reality" of the mashiach will get rid of Nassralah and Ahmenjad?



109

 May 27, 2008 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Didnt the Star K pick up cafe K after they were dropped by someone else - maybe OU?
And this remark came from the president - waht does rabbi Heineneman have to say?

110

 May 27, 2008 at 10:57 AM Machlokes .... Ad Mosai ..... Says: Says:

To a Yid ......

You guys are twisitng and distorting history. The Choizer of the Rebbe, Reb Yoel Kahn, the one who for decades was relied upon by the Rebbe himself to accurately give over his sichos is against the Meshichisten. If anyone understands what the Rebbe was and what he meant it would be him. Now that he doesdn't agree with you guys - he's the apikores ??? Look to people like him for guidance.

The Rebbe was looking for even 2-3 who really wanted Moshiach with an emmes. Certainly Rabbis Butman, Majesky & their ilk were in the crowd why didn't anything happen since then. The Rebbe was not talking about politic, about who's the greatest Rebbe in the world - he was talking about bringing Moshiach !!! Bumper stickers ain't gonna do it.

One more point - That the Rebbe Zy'a was not Moshiach does not make him any less of the Tzaddik that he was. Until this childish approach is dropped nothing will change. The Meshichisten need him to be Moshiach to prove to themselves and the world that he was the ultimate & in living this false derech they succeed in puling down his tremendous accomplishments for klal yisroel.

111

 May 27, 2008 at 08:31 PM lavdafka Says:

to summarize: …to say that lr is moshiach is to make our whole avodah and yiddishkiit very small and narrow-minded! i do believe that you can say that the l rebbe is moshiach and all based on legitimate sources of roofs from halochah! .. what it all boils down to is, tradition healthy yiddishkiit how we were taught and know it for thousands of years!!! i strongly feel the to believe the lr is moshiach now and run with it, is a severe distortion and a hindrance to a proper avodas hashem and something tells its’ bases is klipa not kedusha.

112

 May 27, 2008 at 09:00 PM dude Says:

at lavdafka

you know kelipa allitel to weel that you associate everything to it...

you fool

113

 May 27, 2008 at 09:40 PM lavdafka Says:

to tzfati (aka DUDE) sorry your having a hard to expessing yourself

114

 May 27, 2008 at 11:49 PM Moshe Says:

With all the talk above about the Rambam, it is appropriate to actually quote the source. The Rambam writes, in Hilchos Melochim, end of ch. 11:

"If a king will arise from the House of David who studies Torah and does mitzvos like David his father, according to the written and oral tradition, and if he will compel all of Israel to go in its ways, rally to its restoration, and fight the battles of G-d, then he is presumed to be Moshiach. If he does this successfully, and he vanquishes all the nations around him, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, then he is definitely Moshiach.”

The Rambam continues, in another paragraph that in some editions was deleted by Christian censors, "But IF HE DOES NOT SUCCEED TO THIS EXTENT, or if he is slain, IT IS KNOWN HE IS NOT THE ONE THE TORAH PROMISED, but he is only like all the righteous and proper kings of David's lineage WHO DIED. The Holy One blessed be He only raised him in order to test the multitude, as it says, 'And some of the men of understanding will fall, to try them, and to refine and purify them, even to the time of the end, because it is still for the time appointed' [Daniel 11:35]. . ."

In other words, the Rambam states that Moshiach must achieve his whole mission, build the Beis Hamikdosh, gather the Jews from exile, and defeat the enemies of Israel all as an outstanding but normally appearing human being. He also stresses that if a person who is presumed to be Moshiach dies before accomplishing all of this, he cannot return to his body for a "second coming" to finish the task. Rather, his death is evidence that "he is not the one the Torah promised, but he is only like all the righteous and proper kings of David's lineage who died." The Rambam then continues that at the appointed time Hashem will raise up another leader and "the true King Moshiach will arise."

Those who believe that the Rebbe zt”l will be resurrected as Moshiach, although they include individuals who might otherwise be considered intelligent scholars, have nevertheless failed the very test that the Rambam, quoting Daniel, foretold, for the words "some of the men of understanding will fall" could easily apply to them, for they have stumbled and fallen into acceptance of this definitely non-Jewish tenet. But because they are so conniving, they try to produce a smoke screen of false reasoning to make it seem as though they are correct.

Most of the Lubavitcher Messianists first attempt to skirt the plain objection to their belief from the above ruling of the Rambam by trying to hide the fact it even exists. By doing so they are following in the footsteps of the Christian censors who ruthlessly deleted these words from publications of the Rambam since they so totally shatter any credibility for belief that Moshiach will need a ‘second coming,’ in a second lifetime, to complete his mission.

When forced to confront this halacha they initially refuse to acknowledge its plain meaning. They try to argue it means only that one who "is SLAIN... is not the one the Torah promised," and that this does not apply one who succumbs through natural causes as the Rebbe zt”l did. However when one reads the Rambam in its entirety, it is clear that the Rambam expressly and primarily wrote the halacha regarding one who "DOES NOT SUCCEED TO THIS EXTENT... WHO DIED.” Read it again, please, the Rambam does indeed write “she’maisu,” “WHO DIED,” the word indeed is right there in the Rambam. Please learn to read and finish a sentence.

This specifically excludes anyone who dies even a normal death before he succeeds in building the Bais Hamikdosh and gathering the dispersed Jews to their Land. Oviously it specifically excludes someone like the Rebbe zt”l, who even if it could be argued that he was “like all the righteous and proper kings of David's lineage” – nevertheless he “died,” and with that all of the Messianic pretensions that his followers attribute to him disappear. It is time for them to say “Boruch Dayan HaEmes,” recognize that Hashem controls the world, and it is He who will pick the Moshiach. Get over it already and get a life.

[Incidentally, R’ Heller, Rosh Kollel in Crown Heights, explains that by adding the word “nehrag,” referring to one who “is slain,” the Rambam is actually indicating a possibility that even if a person does succeed “to this extent,” i.e., he “vanquishes all the nations around him, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel,” he might somehow anyway be slain by man. Even if that possibility were to happen, the Rambam explains, we should not give up hope, it is only a test, and eventually Hashem will send the true redeemer at the proper time.]

Will reading this change the mind of even one Meshichist? Probably not, because they are so brainwashed and suffering from such cognitive dissonance that in their eyes night is day and day is night. But to all others, beware, and please do not be fooled. If someone comes to your shul wearing a “Yechi” yarmulka or the like – please do not let him in. Certainly do not give them any kibudim, and do not let any Meshichistim become shochtim or rabbis or melamdim. If you are soft about this and have ‘mercy’ on them, remember what our sages taught, one who has mercy on the wicked in the end is being cruel to the righteous, and remember, all it takes for evil to prevail is for the good to do nothing. This is an issue on which it is necessary to take a stand.

-- Written by a once proud Lubavitcher. Thank you for reading. Thank you even more if you try to do something about this.

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