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Monsey, NY - Town supervisor to Convey Urgent Meeting on The Disrespect By Police Officer Of Frum Woman, Photos Destroyed |
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Last updated on: Jun 20, 2008 at 03:51 PM
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The Monsey Jewish community is outraged and furious that the male ramapo officers In a blatant disrespect to this sensitive issue as the woman begged the officer to understand that by doing so is a blatant dishonor to her, and her Jewish religion, the officer ignored her plea.
The police officer has also refused the womans request for a female officer to handle her
The town supervisor Christopher P. St. Lawrence has just released the below statement to the media
Recently, as Supervisor of the Town of Ramapo, I was made aware of an arrest of two members of the New Square community. It is my understanding that troubling questions have been raised as to the propriety of the behavior of the Police officer involved during the processing of the individuals following arrest.
It has always been my position, as Supervisor of the Town of Ramapo and as Chairman of the Ramapo Police Commission, to respect the religious and cultural beliefs of all our citizens. Therefore, I will not tolerate any inappropriate or insensitive behavior by any member of the police department and am prepared to take whatever action is necessary to address any complaint that may be made about this situation.
While this matter is being reviewed, I have directed that we re-double our efforts in the area of Community Policing. I have charged Deputy Chief of Police James Quinn, with the task of reviewing our Community Policing program and immediately implementing additional programs in the area of sensitivity training, including individual training for all Ramapo Police officers. I believe that this will foster a greater understanding by our Police force of the religious and cultural beliefs of our citizens throughout the Town of Ramapo. I invite members of the Town of Ramapo to contact me should they have any suggestions or concerns about this matter.
I sincerely hope that the community will accept my heartfelt apologies for the insensitive behavior that occurred.
I will work diligently to ensure that our Police force will understand the concerns of the community so that this will never be repeated in the Town of Ramapo.
In addition, I am convening a special meeting of the Ramapo Police Commission on Monday June 23rd, to deal directly with the Police officer in this instance.
Christopher P. St. Lawrence -Supervisor
U/D 2:52 PM
The officer, Jonathan Quinn, is to go before a police board next week. The photo is to be destroyed.
Assemblyman Dov Hikind of Broorklyn who has been a strong advocate for religious freedom and respect, has told VIN news he will absolutely look into this case and see if there is anything from a legislation point, that he can help educate law enforcement of the sensitivity of this type of issues.
Mr. Hikind also says that in NYC such an incident would have never occurred because the NYPD is educated on the sensitivity of the religious people
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Brooklyn, NY - Man Charged with Buildings Inspector Bribes
Toronto, Canada - Report: Hezbollah May Attack Canadian Jews
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Read Comments (165) — Post Yours »
1
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:16 PM nebach Says:
a real real nebach!!!! i hope the dude gets fired and she can get a good lawyer and try to make a few bucks to make her feel a little better!!
2
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:17 PM Anonymous Says:
Somehow there is a second side to this story that is not being reported.
I have a klal , when in Rome you do as the Roman's do
3
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:21 PM Anonymous Says:
would a muslim women have to remove the burqa?
4
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:24 PM Anonymous Says:
This is an outrage and shows the hatred of the Ramapo Police Department towards the frum community. Absolutely, I hope the officer is fired and his superiors are dealt with as well, as they let this happen...
5
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:27 PM Anonymous Says:
Sounds liks 1940's history does repeat itself. This happened in the U.S., right? Based on the story I may have thought Germany...
6
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:41 PM Big Event Says:
Disgusting
7
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:44 PM Anonymous Says:
Of course a moslem woman would not have to remove her burka, because you have to respect her religion.
11:17 Even if this woman is guilty of a crime and was arrested for a valid reason, there is absolutely no excuse for not allowing her the constitutional right of freedom of religion.
And 'if we are in rome....You better remove your kapel and tzitzis...Last time I looked, it is not what most NYers wear.
8
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:45 PM Anonymous Says:
Who was the officer? It should not be hard to find out... a male or female officer? Rookie or officer that has been there a while?
9
Jun 19, 2008 at 11:49 PM Anonymous Says:
I am really fed up with the disrespect by the Ramapo PD to the community. We once had a relationship, but you can say that is more than gone at this point! It seems every few days it is something else. Wake up Chief Brower you are in charge! I think.
10
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:02 AM Nigritude Ultramarine Says:
Based on the story I may have thought Germany...
It's the Holocaust card for the win!
11
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:07 AM 0222 member Says:
i think we all should go out as a protest at the police dept. this should never happin in our community. please call 845-357-2400 and protast this evil work. or email to supervisor@ramapo-ny.gov copy this site and paste to address
thanks for helping us and all of us
12
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM Anonymous Says:
where are all the macher's who are so friendly with the police dept. when you need them
sorry but i have no respect any more for the ramapo cops who by the way get paid from our hard earned money,,,they are a bunch of crooks look at ,dale ,
it took 3 years of complaints till they took action.
13
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:38 AM Chaim dov Says:
Is thair any action going on?we must do somthing.does anyone have any more info?
14
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:43 AM monsey 112 Says:
what are the unspecified charges . Story definately has another side to this story. Why do u all be dan lekaf zechus on this cop just like you want us to be dan lekaf zechus on this lady who was arrested . the truth will come out very about both the cop and tjis lady who was arrested. just wait and see and stop lynching this cop before you hear both sides of the story
15
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:44 AM joe Says:
Hello!
Remove your wig for a second or two while I take a picture!! Isnt that the law?? How many exceptions can we make??
You people are so juvinile!
Nazi, Germany, KKK, AntiSemites, blah blah blah.
16
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:44 AM Anonymous Says:
The cop can't arrest a woman for no reason. It doesn't fly. I am not sure if you no anything about police work, but when you arrest someone you must have these things called REASONS. So before you jump down this cops throat you must realize that he probably had a valid reason to arrest this woman and maybe just maybe you are going a little too crazy on RPD who has to put up with all of your garbage 24/7. For examples of what garbage, it would be my greatest honor to explain in detail. This woman most likely did something wrong and thats why she was thrown into a cell and she prob gave the cop attitude witch got her into some more problems. You make your bed, you sleep in it
17
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:47 AM Shaul Boruch Says:
Can someone please post if there is any reason to go to the police station now? It's approx 12:45 AM.
18
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:55 AM NYC Man Says:
AND WHY WAS SHE ARRESTED?
what did this women do that wasnt "inappropriate" to warrant her being arrested?
19
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:56 AM Anonymous Says:
r u aware that our so calld FRIEND "ST. Lawrence"
is like the Police commissioner
so lets see what he will do for this
if you think that something like this or any other Unjustified arrest
could be reprimanded
20
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:57 AM NYC Man Says:
stop crying 1940s and germany. please.
dina dmalchusa dina.
she isnt the first frum woman to get arrested.
did she commit a crime? did she break a law? that is the tachlis here. not being requested to lift her wig off for her criminal mug shots.
please.
21
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:57 AM berl Says:
it shows how our police officers are untrained and disrespectfull of the jewish community
22
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:06 AM Matzahlocal101 Says:
I would think that cops that work in Monsey would be appreciative of the fact that their work involves more writing tickets and considerably less getting shot at by drug dealers than other beats. I would also think being that a good percentage of people that work in town hall are frum, cops would be aware of the "cultural needs" of our population. Additionally it would seem there must be some protocol that female arrestees are handled by female cops, (TO PROTECT THE COPS! from claims of abuse.) If women can be photographed for drivers ID (and passports) with the wig, and most women have hair, what would be the big problem of photographing her with the wig?
Mistamah, the cop was probably angry at Rubashkin for hiring illegals and not allowing them to unionize like police, no?
23
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:09 AM Anonymous Says:
She was set up!! She did nothing! I can vouch for it she is a top teacher in BY of RAMAPO!!! We should all continue to daven for her release
24
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:13 AM Shaul Boruch Says:
Regardless of why the woman was arrested she has rights and requesting a female officer for processing is virtually SOP in any police department in the country. Civil rights law exists precisely for this reason. Taking a person into custody doesn't give duly constituted authority carte blanche to do whatever they want - even if the person arrested acts inappropriately.
25
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:14 AM Anonymous Says:
You should Daven for justice to be served! You can't vouch for someone. You think you know someone so well and then Bam! She pulls a stunt like this. The Ramapo Police Dep't is a very respected Dep't and doesn't make false arrests. I'm glad that you know her from BY but you don't know her well enough. I don't care if she is your co-worker who happens to be a very good friend of yours, who lives next door to you, who is also your sister-in-law!!!! You don't know everyone and what they do!!!! Classic Jewish Mentality. I know everyone and everything
26
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:21 AM MDN Says:
Wrong! The tachlis is NOT the crime. Because aperson alegadley commits a crime you cannot disrespect them or deem them guilty until they are found guilty at trial. Our women don't wear veils and burkas like the arabic women covering their faces and just like you don't shave a persons head in orfer to take a mug shot the PD shpuld not ask her to remove her wig, irespective of the aleged crime
27
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:38 AM EDIT0R Says:
IF SHE BROKE THE LAW, YOU MAY ARREST, BUT NOT ALLOWED TO TELL HER TO TURN OFF THE WIG.
28
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:50 AM Anonymous Says:
sounds like the lakewood police
29
Jun 20, 2008 at 02:11 AM Anonymous Says:
to anon 1:14
simply put "you are out of line" (im kein - ein laduvur soif)
30
Jun 20, 2008 at 02:17 AM Anonymous Says:
to anonymous 1:14
You are contradicting youself
You wrote this all in one sentence!
1)You think you know someone so well and then Bam
2)The Ramapo Police Dep't is a very respected Dep't and doesn't make false arrests
first you doubt the general knowledge of one another, & thereafter you are so certain about the police departement
31
Jun 20, 2008 at 02:52 AM Yid Says:
For all you high and mighty "dina dmalchusa dina'
Even if she was arrested for a terrible crime... She is still in the USA. Her request for a female officer is LEGAL!!!!
Arresting and degrading are two different things.
Why are you all saying THE LAW IS THAT SHE HAS TO REMOVE HER SHEITEL. Did you go to law school???????????
I wonder if a cancer patient is arrested, do they have to remove there headcover and show a bald head for a mug shot?? I don't think so.
For all of you that have already convicted her of terrible crime, Remember that in the USA you are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!
And on this site, she was already judged and sentenced by some people who don't even know the law.
32
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:09 AM Anonymous Says:
who cares if there is a reason or not for the arrest, y did the wig come in the picture no matter what crime it should b
33
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:13 AM anon. Says:
DINA D'MALCHUSA DINA!!!
Where do you take it from? The torah !! The SAME torah that says you should judge others favorably.
Were you ever arrested? If not then you were never in her shoes and should not judge her.
Do you even know who it is? It could be a relative of yours.
Did you all finish law school?
Are you totally familiar with the laws about arrests?
AND MOST IMPORTANT, ARE YOU ALL SAMPLE CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW EACH AND EVERY LAW?
34
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:23 AM anon. Says:
To NYC Man,
Maybe the "tachlis" is that her rights as an American were violated?
And even if she was rightly arrested, SHE IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!!!!
YOU would probably love to take off your kappel and tzitzis for a mug shot.
35
Jun 20, 2008 at 04:48 AM M.P. Says:
Would you agree that a captured terrorist should be photographed any way the authorities feel apropiate?
I'm not suggesting this lady is a terrorist CH"V.
No one here seems to know what crime she has been charged for. In some cases it might be appropiate to force a criminal to remove a wig even if its against your religius belief.
Just a different prespective.
36
Jun 20, 2008 at 06:18 AM Anonymous Says:
After all we pay one of the height taxes, but elect people to represent us that have their houses under congregations, get their tickets taken care off under the table, they don't feel our pain 4 different police departments patrolling the same safe community, and the officers have to meet their quota, they behave with such disrespect to the average citizen, but again our leader are above average!!!
37
Jun 20, 2008 at 06:42 AM Anonymous Says:
What's she supposed to have done? Was she wearing a "spitz" mit a tiechel? That could have been the issue.
My license has me wearing a wig, so does my now defunct green card. There's more to this, although I'll bet it's pure anti semitism. Yes, that's right! When the Supreme Court "paskened" a couple of days ago that terrorists get the same rights as we do, we must respect their civil rights, it makes me wonder what this woman could have done that was so bad that she lost HER civil rights.
Women should protest @ the stationhouse.
38
Jun 20, 2008 at 06:48 AM BMoss Says:
the mud shot must have an accurate picture of her.
Wearing a shetle allows one to change one's appearance. Let's cool down and wait to hear the whole story
39
Jun 20, 2008 at 06:49 AM BMoss Says:
evcuse me , I meant mug shot and shaytle. lol It's too early
40
Jun 20, 2008 at 08:04 AM unit0220 Says:
we also had a lot of prob. withe ramapo police
41
Jun 20, 2008 at 08:16 AM Anonymous Says:
BMoss-What you are suggesting is absurd. You can shave your hair, grow a beard and hair, which all change your facial look.
42
Jun 20, 2008 at 08:23 AM Chacham Mah Nishtanah Says:
You guys make it sound that you have to commit an awful crime to get arrested. Well, in NY, if you don't pay a single driving ticket, your license gets suspended, and you will be mandatory ARRESTED for driving with a suspended license! Isn't that a terrible crime! I would very much imagine that is what she was arrested for.
43
Jun 20, 2008 at 08:27 AM lavdafka Says:
Hi , 0222 12:07 AM
IS THIS THE KIND OF LETTER I SHOULD BE WRITING?
Email: supervisor@ramapo-ny.gov
Ramapo PD
Chief Brower;
It has been brought to my attention a recent incident of a terrible abuse by one of your officers. This involves one of your officers violating a Monsey woman. We here in the Monsey religious community are Indignant with this kind unprofessionalism given here by the Ramapo police force, I can’t begin to tell you how unhappy and disappointed I am with this kind and blatant disrespect to this woman.
Sa???? ???man
?? West Maple Ave
Monsey NY 10952
( 845) 352 ????
44
Jun 20, 2008 at 08:53 AM long live Zionisom Says:
all those who mock and wirte on this blog against the cops dont go running to them an kiss up to them when you need them and they will protect you
She violated the law she deserves to get arrested they treat any alleged criminal the same way she has to remove any covering in cse she will be a fugitive....
maybe thank an officer for helping you u next time make dinners to help give them citizen appreciation
45
Jun 20, 2008 at 08:54 AM NYC Man Says:
anon 3:23,
If so, then you must afford the SAME benefit of the doubt you demand for the woman for the cops as well.
To sit here and start calling them 1940s german nazis is sickening and embarassing to the jewish community. is that how we should react? maybe they did know? maybe they dont care? maybe they are taught not to care? maybe they treat all criminals arrested the same? are they not innocent til proven guilty too?
why just blindly call them nazis cuz they did their job according to its description?
46
Jun 20, 2008 at 08:56 AM NYC Man Says:
and 3:23 -
that IS the tachlis. if she had done anything that warranted getting arrested, she would not have been in that situation to have her rights violated in the first place.
47
Jun 20, 2008 at 09:14 AM long live Zionisom Says:
lets get this straight
HER RIGHTS WERE NOT VIOLATED at any time...
she can request a female officer to pat her down but to remover her head gear doesnt have a ny standings that a female officer should be called on scene for
if it were a muslim this happened too you would praise the officer for what he did
48
Jun 20, 2008 at 09:23 AM lavdafka Says:
She was delinquent in responding to traffic summons . Police followed a voluntary discretionary arrest . This is very sad and unfortunate. This has happened many times before.
49
Jun 20, 2008 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:
That's all?? I was so sure she was a combination of Osama bin Laden & Jeffrey Dahmer, if not worse.
50
Jun 20, 2008 at 09:43 AM a yid Says:
to long live zionisim: your comments are very appropriate for a zionist (full of sinas yisroel)
51
Jun 20, 2008 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:
This is crazy! Seriously, everyone has rights and no matter the cause of the arrest, until proven guilty she is innocent! But forget all of that. I honestly believe that all the comments belittling this woman for not taking her head covering off are from men. As a frum woman who covers her hair I can't express enough how terribly difficult this must have been for her. If I had to disgrace myself in such a manner I would turn to my community to protect me, not bash me and abandon me at a time like this. Shame on all you who decided that this is not considered a violation of her rights! It is no different then siddurim, chumashim and other sefarim being removed from prisons-its a VIOLATION of peoples human rights. Also, all of you believing the "good work" these officers do-don't kid yourself! They are not out there to help and protect you. They are out there for themselves, for the power trip as in this case in particular. For all other legal photos such as passport all you need to do is push your bangs back and NEVER do you have to remove your head covering when wearing it for religious reasons.
52
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:
as a monsey resident i'm happy that unfortunalty this story happened cause its about time this police officers will realize they can't do what they want they constantly abuse us !
53
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:01 AM Anonymous Says:
oh please 9:58 the law is the law too bad!!
54
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:04 AM Anonymous Says:
It is a terrible chillul hashem when a frum person gets arrested. It would be better if this woman wore a hat or a cap rather than a sheitel so that she would be less identifiable as a religious Jew. I am not implying that she's guilty of the crime she has been accused of. I am just suggesting that one should use discretion to try and prevent chillul hashem whenever possible. To further exacerbate the situation by refusing to take off the sheitel during her booking is totally wrong and only increases the chillul hashem. The gemara in Kiddushin tells us that if a man is so overcome by his yetzer hara and insists on sinning, he should go to a town where nobody recognizes him and dress in dark clothing so that he is not identified as an observant Jew. All this to prevent chillul hashem, which is worse than the sin/crime itself. This should apply to all frum Jews that have run afoul of the law.
55
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:06 AM Anonymous Says:
Nebech is right, she was unjustly umiliated and her civil rights traspassed.But this brings out the best in us having the Rabbi's work this out in a civil and peacefull manner, I can only imagine if this happened in Harlem, there would be riots all over town.
We all have a duty to rally behind the cause and leave no table unturned until the Police make good on this, B"H Ramapo is a good Dept. And I'm sure the Supervisor is on top of this.
56
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:11 AM huh Says:
how does a hat or cap make you less identifiable as a jew? especially when today's fancy expensive wigs defeat the whole purpose behind wearing a shaitel in the first place???
57
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:11 AM Shaul Boruch Says:
I hope not every one here is a Jew, and I don't meam frum, I mean I hope there are goyim posting here. Because when a bas yisroel gets arrested, whatever the reason, it is incumbent on the entire community to support her and do whatever it can to address the issues lawfully and swiftly so that the woman doesn't have to be incarcerated for a second longer than necessary.
This is a critical failure of klal yisroel - not protecting our women. Get comfortable in golus, baby, we're gonna be here a while.
58
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:12 AM huh Says:
traffic summons for what? breaking the law? why do people in our community take traffic and driving violations so lightly? they are laws to protect people IT IS SAKANAS NEFASHOIS.
preiod.
the rabbanim need to start telling people not to take traffic laws so lightly and maybe just maybe people will start to realize what should be common sense.
59
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:15 AM Shaul Boruch Says:
Anonymous 10:04 - how can someone able to quote gemara speak in such an ignominous fashion? Whether or not the woman was in custody, she has certain unassailable rights that cannot be violated regardless of the circumstances. And this was for a traffic ticket, no less! She's not a criminal. But even if she were a murderous felon, her civil rights remain hers, and if she was mistreated, then the police were wrong.
60
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:16 AM Anonymous Says:
Let me gewt something streight. MUST a women remove a wig to take a picture, I don't think so!
61
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:18 AM im the coolest Says:
hashem yirachem
62
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:21 AM Anonymous Says:
I LIVE IN FLATBUSH AND I PERSONALLY KNOW 2 VERY FRUM OUTSTANDING WOMEN (AROUND THE CORNER FROM ME)WHO WERE THROWN INTO THE LOCAL SLAMMER, BOTH FOR NAHRISHKEIT, 1 WOMAN NOT ONLY HAD THE SAME TREATMENT AND THEN SOME (WAS TAUNTED BY THE COPS THEMSELVES AND HAD A CELLMATE WHO WAS A ZOINA WHILE SHE WAS INSIDE) THIS MESHUGANEH COP CLAIMED THAT ONE OF THE WOMAN TRIED TO RUN HIM OVER AND RAN OVER HIS FOOT, WHEN HE CALLED IN "COP DOWN" THEY ARRESTED HER IN THE WORST WAY -- WHILE HER KIDS IN THE CAR AND KOLLEL HUSBAND WATCHED. THIS WOMAN WAS IN THE CLINK FOR OVER 10 HOURS AND WAS A NUMBER OF MONTHS PREGNANT. HER FATHER IN LAW IS A VERY VERY WEALTHY AND POWERFUL ASKEN AND HE COULDNT DO A THING. IT IS STILL BEING DRAGGED OUT IN THE COURT SYSTEM (A JOKE) BY THESE BAHEIMAS.
THE OTHER WOMAN WAS ARRESTED, ALSO FOR NAHRISHKEIT ALONG WITH HER HUSBAND, WHO IS A VERY UPSATNDING FRUM ATTORNEY, IN FRONT OF THEIR SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE, IN THE DAYTIME, ON A QUIET BLOCK, WITH THEIR CHILDREN WATCHING. THEIR CHILDREN WERE LEFT THERE BY THEMSELVES (THE OLDEST WAS 10)
GUYS, ADMIT IT WE LIVE IN GALUS, FLATBUSH, MONSEY ETC ARE NOT OUR HOMES.
WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO TREAT THE STREETS LIKE OUR LIVING ROOMS, THE GOYIM--READ ANIMALS-- ARE GETTING RESTLESS AND HASHEM IS USING UP OUR ZECHUYOS FAST AND FURIOUS TO HELP US OUT, BUT THEY ARE RUNNING OUT. WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO RELY ON NISSIM, NOW IS THE TIME TO LEARN HOW TO ACT LIKE MENTSHEN TO THESE GOYIM, YES, EVEN THOUGH WE HATE THEM AND THEY HATE US. BECAUSE THEY HAD ENOUGH OF OUR YIDDISHE SHTICKLACH AND ARE TAKING OUT ON US AND OUR WOMAN AND CHILDREN.
GUYS WAKE UP!!!!! DO TESHUVA!!!!!
ELUL IS A COMING!
SIGNED A CONCERNED YID!
63
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:23 AM anon. Says:
NYC MAN.
I did not have to defend the policemans rights.You had already done that. :)
And about your 8:56 post.....You never break ANY law?????????
Or are YOU our model citizen who has studied all the laws and follows them to the letter??
64
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:26 AM Anonymous Says:
In response to 10:01, You are right the law is the law...Are you a criminal lawyer? Do you know what her rights are? Were you ever arrested and there for are familiar with the rights of a prisoner. Do you know why she was arrested? Do you know that you are required by law to remove your sheitel? Do you have any compasion for a woman who is a torah abiding woman and takes her mitzvah seriously? Do you know that she was arrested for a crime or can this be a mistake? You know, I know a man that was arrested because his car was stolen and he found it, when driving it home before he was able to report that he found it, he was arrested for stealing his own car-do you think a body search would have been appropriate, or do you think when they were holding him they should have not allowed him to use his teffilin? Do you think they should have made him shave his beard to get a better mug shot picture? Or do you think that as AM ECHAD when the TORAH is transgressed by force on a woman we should stand up and shout...SHE IS OUR PEOPLE! HaShem is her HaShem too and he alone can be the one to judge her. Not me not you. May HaShem forgive you and people like you for not standing up for his Torah. The police department SHOULD have provided a female officer? THEY EASILY COULD HAVE! THERE MOST PROBABLY WAS A FEMALE OFFICER IN THE NEXT ROOM. WHAT WAS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT GETTING A WOMAN INTO THE ROOM INSTEAD OF A MAN? It's just as bad as asking her to remove her clothing infront of a male officer. It's one of our mitzvos as women, until you do this mitzva or until you internalize the value of this mitzva you can not possibly realize the massive degration this can cause a woman. I DO care about her crime BUT one has nothing to do with the other. The law broke itself when they voilated her civil rights. Maybe, we should arrest the officer and all the officers in charge because if we are judging our own so harshly about her being violated dont you think you can channel some of that incorrect anger towards the law enforcers who broke the law?
65
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:33 AM Chacham Mah Nishtanah Says:
It's unfortunate that some on this forum seem to believe that removing a women's headcovering is about as serious as a man removing his hat.
Well the Torah does not think so! For those who just learned Daf Yomi, or listened ti the leining Parshas Naso, should know that removing a women's headcovering is one of the worst embarresment that can be done to the Jewish Women!
So all of you who are not careful in covering your/wife's hair, learn this lesson, take heed and don't fool yourself, there is NO HETER!
66
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:34 AM lavdafka Says:
Reliable source has it; reason for arrest : DELINQUENT IN RESPONDING TO TRAFFIC SUMMONS. Police followed a voluntary discretionary arrest . This is very sad and unfortunate. This has happened many times before.
67
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:38 AM crown heights Says:
anon. Says:
DINA D'MALCHUSA DINA!!!
Where do you take it from? The torah !! The SAME torah that says you should judge others favorably.
Were you ever arrested? If not then you were never in her shoes and should not judge her.
Do you even know who it is? It could be a relative of yours.
Did you all finish law school?
Are you totally familiar with the laws about arrests?
AND MOST IMPORTANT, ARE YOU ALL SAMPLE CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW EACH AND EVERY LAW?
06-20-2008 - 3:13 AM
===============================================
Were u ever a police officer before? then dont judge how a police should act or do. Its dina dmalchusa dina whichever way yu cut the cake. If she can prove her innocence im sure she will do so very shortly. Not responding to summonses is a ticket fines and arrest warrented
68
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:38 AM tootired Says:
Anonymous: So what your saying to all frum women is..."if you are about to be arrested remove your sheitel and put on a hat, as a matter of fact always carry a spare hat with you in your the trunk of your car - well call it the "just in case I get arrested hat"
Oh, by the way small question for you ... why would this help? wont the cops ask her to remove the hat as well?
69
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:
Shaul Baruch,
To me, at issue is not her constitutional rights. At issue is the chillul hashem which she and others posting here are not sensitive to. Making a federal case about taking off a sheitel, no matter how right you feel that you are, is nevertheless a chillul hashem in that frum Jews should not have to be in such a situation to begin with. When a gentile reads about such a story in the papers, his first reaction is "what crime did this Orthodox Jew commit?" Not, this Orthodox Jew is being unfairly persecuted while in custody. We have grown so accustomed to frum Jews being arrested for one type of crime or another, that we have become totally desensitized to the grave sin of chillul hashem. It's like the incarcerated Jew making a federal case out of not being served kosher food in prison. What's worse, eating treife or causing a chillul hashem? Just lay low, do your time and try to keep your nose clean in the future. You should not be flaunting your yiddishkeit under such circumstances.
70
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:51 AM anon. Says:
10:01, Are you so sure it is the law?
long live zionism,
About your 8:53 post. I think you should fight the law about mug shots that has such a terrible loophole that allows a person arrested not be pictured in EVERY imaginable way.
A criminal could grow/shave his beard, dye his/her hair, put on a wig,or any other thing that changes his/her appearance and we won't find them if he/she becomes a fugitive. This is absolutely terrible, run to your congressman, the law has to be changed.
We need strict laws about mug shots.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 10:54 AM anonymous Says:
comments threads like these make us look like such a bunch of idiots sometimes
72
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:54 AM Anon1 Says:
SHEEEESSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! Do people bother to read more than the headlines?? No one is questioning her arrest, what is being questioned is her treatment after she was arrested. Everyone is entitled to respect regardless of the crimes committed. All she asked for was a female officer, which is standard protocol in most police departments in USA.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 10:55 AM Anonymous Says:
10:26 cry cry cry, can't wait to see what happens to your "civil rights" when a democrat takes over......how about all of the people getting welfare,food stamps etc.. that don't need it?? isn't that considered a crime called "stealing from the government? now what....comment on that one......I have one word FRAUD
06-20-2008 - 10:41 AM
Seriously, you are delusional, or a self hating Jew-you pick! What THE HECK DOES FOOD STAMPS AND FRAUD have to do with this poor womans violation? AND I WILL CRY! I WILL CRY AND CRY AND CRY as long as I have too, to help save the neshamos of my people. NOT YOURS, MINE! I'M proud of 10:33 who gets it. THIS IS NOT A JOKE! Woman can not be violated and this was a VIOLATING ACT! NO DIFFERENT than if the officer would have pinched her A**! INFACT, as a woman who takes covering my hair seriously (BTW, that comment about wigs not doing the job right-its totally not the point of covering your hair-you missed the boat too! A woman can cover her hair with human hair sheitels as beautiful as she wants because it has nadda to do with the halacha.) I probably would find it equally as disturbing, yet the act of me having to remove my sheitel would be all the more degrading. To stand there and be denied a female officer and to remove my sheitel infront of a man is the same as putting on a strip show for the officer. He got his kicks in watching the show. His sick, twisted kicks. I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND how anyone, be them a Jew or not can tollerate another lowly human denying them of this right to a female officer.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 10:55 AM Anonymous Says:
we are idiots, need to get a JOB
75
Jun 20, 2008 at 10:57 AM anonymous Says:
traffic laws are made for yours and all of our safety. anyone who treats them lightly deserves to be punished
76
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:00 AM Anonymous Says:
Better not got through security at JFK they too make you take off your sheitel how do they know your not hiding something under there? didn't you hear about the lady tried to smuggle 2.5 pounds of drugs under a wig recently , don't know if she was religious but you never know!! Her rights were not violated, they were doing there job.
77
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:01 AM anonymous Says:
no one has the right to complain about searches for airplanes given the reason they are done
78
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:05 AM Moshe M'Radin Says:
TO ANON 10:57
YOU WRITE:
"traffic laws are made for yours and all of our safety. anyone who treats them lightly deserves to be punished"
ONLY AFTER A TRIAL & CONVICTION!!!!
This cop is not a Judge & Jury! He must be fired, he violated her basic human rights according to our Fed and State laws
79
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:09 AM Anonymous Says:
I know someone that was asked to take off their sheitel at JFK. They were escorted by TWO female security people to a place off to the side BEHIND closed doors. So for the woman who are asked to remove their sheitel stand up for your rights and ask for a private room!
80
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:16 AM gosh Says:
gosh
81
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:21 AM Anonymous Says:
OH MY! TERRIBLE
82
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:28 AM Charlie Hall Says:
Anonymous 11:09 AM: My wife was once asked to uncover her hair at an airport security checkpoint. She politely explained that she couldn't do that for religious reasons and asked for a private screening room with a female security officer. The security officers accepted her request.
83
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:30 AM Spaceball Says:
I'm sorry, but there are so many stories out there of our fellow Jews involved in not such Jewish activities (according to Jewish law, that is), that I have a hard time sympathizing until I hear the other side.
In this day and age, just because someone is circumcised (male, for example) doesn't mean he's automatically correct. Maybe she was being disrespectful, or acting like a b**ch, or getting physical, who knows? Or, it's very possible anti-Semitism WAS involved.
But we shouldn't act like an Al Sharpton who will stand up for the worst gang member just because he's a homeboy (black). Too many times there is justification.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 11:35 AM SD Says:
Given that everyone here seems to be so knowledgeable about Jewish Law, I was wondering if someone could cite where it says in Shulchan Aruch that a married woman is not permitted to momentarily remove her wig indoors, especially where the only people present are non-Jews.
85
Jun 20, 2008 at 11:51 AM lavdafka Says:
SD: If she had shaved her head it was probably extremely embarrassing for her… nothing to do with Shulchan Aruch!
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Jun 20, 2008 at 11:52 AM anonymous Says:
Charlie Hall Says:
Anonymous 11:09 AM: My wife was once asked to uncover her hair at an airport security checkpoint. She politely explained that she couldn't do that for religious reasons and asked for a private screening room with a female security officer. The security officers accepted her request.
WOW! you mean she didnt put up a fight and run to the blogs for discrimination??? outstanding! kol hacavod to you and your wife.
lucky you didnt need to call dov hikind to write a letter to the airline lol
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Jun 20, 2008 at 11:56 AM Mendel Says:
I understand that if she broke the law she may have deserved to be arrested.
but the issue is that during a strip search a female prisoner has the right to request a female officer to either conduct the search or to be in the room.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:03 PM Chutzpa!! Says:
THE FUNNIEST THING ABOUT THIS WHOLE SITUATION IS HOW EVERYONE IS JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS!!!! WE DON'T KNOW THE FULL STORY AND YET EVERONE HAS A "KASHA-TERETZ" AND DEFINATELY JUDGED EVERYONE INVOLVED ON THIS SITUATION...GET A LIFE WAIT FOR THE FACTS...SURE YOU'LL HEAR BOUT THEM IN THE "MIK"
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:08 PM Anonymous Says:
SD Says:
Given that everyone here seems to be so knowledgeable about Jewish Law, I was wondering if someone could cite where it says in Shulchan Aruch that a married woman is not permitted to momentarily remove her wig indoors, especially where the only people present are non-Jews.
06-20-2008 - 11:35 AM
--------------------------------------------
You are a big Aam Haaretz. Hair of a married woman is Ervah and Asur to uncover, period.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:
I was once asked to remove my cap/hat at JFK immigration. I complied, I felt the Halachic implications were minor. The next time I entered the US I removed my cap and held it in my hand. The Immigration Officer asked me why I felt I had to remove my Yarmulka wahich he saw in my cap,
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:21 PM Spaceball Says:
Anon 12:08,
Not only are YOU the Am Ha'aretz, you aren't even embarrassed to publicize it!
SD is right-there's no issur for her to uncover her hair in a private setting.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:23 PM Shaul Boruch Says:
Anon 10:49, I totally disagree with you. Thankfully, so did Abraham Lincoln, Medger Evers, and Martin Luther King.
The law does not empower police to do whatever they want simply because they are permitted to execute a warrant. Read between the lines here. This was a bench warrant that was in the discretion of the police to arrest her. I myself was once pulled over and because of the circumstances the olice explained to me that they could take me into custody if they so chose. We spoke further, and they not only chose not to do that, they told me exactly what to do to remedy the situation. So I know for a fact that there is discretion that can be exercised.
The real issue is:
Could the police have allowed her to keep her sheitl on if she so chose? Answer: Of course they could have. SD above also misses the point by seeking for the m'kor in Shulchan Oruch. That has nothing to do with it. All that counts is the woman's own interpretation of her religious needs at the time.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:
Anonymous 11:09 AM: My wife was once asked to uncover her hair at an airport security checkpoint. She politely explained that she couldn't do that for religious reasons and asked for a private screening room with a female security officer. The security officers accepted her request.
WOW! you mean she didnt put up a fight and run to the blogs for discrimination??? outstanding! kol hacavod to you and your wife.
lucky you didnt need to call dov hikind to write a letter to the airline lol
06-20-2008 - 11:52 AM
What the airline did was perfectly acceptable and that is the WHOLE POINT! The officer refused her a FEMALE OFFICER! She didn't refuse to comply. And as far as HALACHA and the whole idea of wether it is asser or not...what about women who shave their head-l'fee mshuras hadin, if that is acceptable then so too can woman take on to NOT EVEN SHOW THEIR HAIR IN PRIVATE TO A MAN! without being critisized! And to 12:15 a hat and sheitel are two different ends of the spectrum, Kudo's to you for not feeling bad, you shouldn't its a hat! and you are not bound by Halacha to not remove it in a public setting, nor is it humiliating to remove infront of strangers. This woman was humilated. WHERE WAS A FEMALE OFFICER?
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:30 PM ploni Says:
i wasnt there, but theres a way of responding respectfully to the law. if u behave in a dignified way, hopefully they will respond in the same way. i can understand she can be very upset. but dont u also get a lawyer after u get arrested?
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:33 PM anonymous Says:
12:08 couldnt be more wrong.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:37 PM anonymous Says:
its a good thing licold, evars and king were all liberals.
somehow i dont thing miriam hanivia, rus, tzipporah, dina, mame rachel, mrs rebbe akiva, and mrs yosef cairo had fancy jaclyn georgie 5,000 dollar human indian midwood hair monstrosities.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:38 PM Anonymous Says:
He must be fired, he violated her basic human and civil rights, according to our Federal and State laws, it's about time we jews come out of our shaddows and take our protests to the streets and do like the African-Americans, they at least fight for each other?
The problem here is that our community leaders and rabbis couldn't care less, they are always silent, always go under cover, always worry about themselves, and that's why all of this can happen.
WHERE ARE THE PROTESTS, WHERE ARE OUR LEADERS??
WE SHOULD HAVE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, RIGHT NOW, PROTESTING AND DEMANDING ANSWERS!!
IMAGINE ONE THING BEFORE YOU COME TO CONCLUSION, WHAT IF THIS WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU, PUT YOURSELF IN HER SHOES FOR A MINUTE??
Gut shabbos!!
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:46 PM Pinky's wife Says:
comments - arrow would a muslim women have to remove the burqa?
American Jews did not protest on behalf of G-d fearing Muslims who were being abused and now it happens to us.
This is just like Spain in the 15th century.
Hashem help us.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM insider Says:
So this is about a shaitle now? Get real please.
IF IF IF IF you break the law then do not cry that the police are doing thier job. I write IF you break the law so not get jumpy now!
There ARE 2 sides to the story so lets see what happens.
Three years ago there was a car pulled over in Flatbush on eruv shabbos and the car had all windows in a dar tint. The police officer that pulled this car over was doing a license check and the car came up stolen.
The police officer was alone and asked for back up since he could not see who was in the vehicle and the police officer while waiting for back up asked the driver to roll down his windows and take the keys out of the ignition and put it in his left hand and put the keys on top of the vehicle.
The driver happened to be a chasidishe yid which was very puzzling how he could be driving a stolen car but sice it came up stolen the officer MUST arrest the individual until everything sorts out.
Most of you condemn the police for doing their job and it really gets sickening when most of you do not realize there are always two sides to a story. If I ended the above story right now you would all have conclusions so I will finish writing the FACTS to the above story.
Back up has now arrived and police ask the driver to step out of the car and the driver starts screaming don't you realize it is shabbos in a few hours and went on to say it's all a mistake!
The car was a rented vehicle which was rented 5 months earlier and the driver only paid for the the first two weeks and REFUSED to return the car and pay additional fees. the rental company called and wrote a letter that if he does not return the car they are reporting the car stolen since he ALSO was not paying any fees for using the car. (Obviuosly the intention was to NEVER return the car).
The police now realized there was another person in the back of the car who was 15 years old, wearing a yarmulkeh but looked spanish and when asked his name he responded his name was Jose XXXX!!
The police officer knew something was wrong when a spanish kid is wearing a yarmulkeh and has a spanish name!
(The kid was using his old name before he became a ger)
Askanim were calling the police to ask for leniency and explaining that it's going to be shabbos........
So now there are two under arrest.
NOW HERE IS THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY.
While the police are searching the car which is standard police practice when having a driver udner arrest, the police find shell casings, bullets, a holster for a gun and drugs.
So before anyone says anything about police arresting one of our own think twice. it's a great mitzvah to give benfot of the doubt but if you would only know how many frum people are getting arrested for suspended license, driving stolen vehicles, drugs, DWI you would be shocked.
This is happening everyday in the jewish communities and we do not hear one word from Rabanim, askanim denouncing this behavior.
All we hear is when a yid is pulled over how innocent these people are. I could assure you that 99% of the time the police are very fair, polite and just doing their job.
There are police officers who are actually sick and tired working in our area because whatever they do people are not happy. When a police officer pulls a yid over all of a sudden 20 phone calls are made. If the officer pulls a black person over then they are called racist and against black people. If an officer pulls over anyone in certain high impact areas it's always something. Police have a very difficult time protecting the law because of the attitude that certain people could do whatever they want when they want.
It's time to be focusing on making a kiddush hashem instead of a chilul hashem. Police officers read this blog.
We do not have an easy job and 99% of us try our hardest to protect the law and the community.
ANONYMOUS
100
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:
I'm shocked!! what's happening here? where is the respect for religion? isn't freedom of religion in the US constitution?
101
Jun 20, 2008 at 12:56 PM anonymous Says:
this isnt about freedom of religion its about a woman lifting her thing for 3 seconds to snap a mugshot because she WAS ARRESTED
sheesh. people get over yourselves.
if a woman wearsa a wig for vanity is it the same? oh wait thats what we do , we wear them for vanity.
102
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:05 PM Anonymous Says:
Secular law gives the arrested the right to a same-sex officer in the case of a pat-down search.
It does not give the right to a same-sex officer for a booking photo. This has already, to my understanding, been litigated in many states (largely due to objections from the Muslim community), and the right to hair coverings has not to my knowledge been upheld.
103
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:06 PM Anonymous Says:
Where is YOUR respect for the Jewish religion? There is no bigger sin than Chillul Hashem!
104
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:18 PM anonymous Says:
a perosn who has no respect for law and peoples safety would be hard pressed to talk about respect for religion.
105
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:
sure mr. st lawrence we'll take your heartfelt apologies...... and her lawyer will take a few $mil from the town....
thanx
and the mosdos who stand to get the maaser from the settlement thank you too!!
106
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:
You wrote: It's time to be focusing on making a kiddish hashem instead of a chilul hashem. Police officers read this blog.
People like you are exactly the problem in our communities:
You find that it's haluchigly correct to let our brothers fall to the enemies, let Police officers attack and commit against us the worst anti-semitism assaults in the history of this country. and you consider it a Kiddish Hashem?, are you out of your mind?!!
This is the exact thinking of a typical amulike, my friend, not of a fellow jew!
Wake up my friends, remember how world war two started?
Speaking out in the greatest force and numbers possible, is what a Kiddish Hashem is all about, notifying police officers around the country, how a jew will not tolerate any assaults against a fellow jew!!
Start helping your fellow jew by writing to:
Email: supervisor@ramapo-ny.gov
107
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:34 PM anonymous Says:
as a frum jew i think everyone needs to pipe down and get a life. stop making a mess out of nothing. we need to learn to pick our batteles. this isnt a battle. what evertime something happens someone can cry religious discrimination? please. go be productive, go work on your own shalom bayis or bein adam lichaveiro.
108
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:34 PM Anonymous Says:
Suing the town is not the answer this will just cause all the taxpayers to pay higher taxes.
I DON'T THINK IT IS NECESSARY PHOTO TO REMOVE YOUR WIG FOR A PHOTO. DO WOMEN NEED TO REMOVE THEIR WIG FOR A DRIVERS LICENSE? NO!!!
109
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:37 PM Anonymous Says:
Insider, you are right, in most cases the police officers try hard to protect the citizens, and they do a great job protecting us while in some cases they're putting themselves in danger.
BUT, when a police officer behaves the way this officer did, degrading and humiliating this woman, with ZERO RESPECT to her religion, then it's WRONG! and he is not loyal to his job, he's just abusing his power.
110
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:38 PM Anonymous Says:
Relax. CHANGE IS ON THE WAY. With Obama in the WH this will never happen. Get ready for this CHAIN'J.
111
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:
when, 06-20-2008 - 1:34 PM, writes that "this isnt a battle", and "go work on your own shalom bayis or bein adam lichaveiro"
I wonder what his comments would have been, had he been in europe right before world war II ?
I imagine he would say the same!!
112
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:50 PM Monsey Born Says:
BAD POLICEMAN? BAD WOMEN? MISTAKES MAY HAVE BEEN MADE, BUT AS WE ALL KNOW, I AM PERFECT AND I NEVER MAKE A MISTAKE! HOW ABOUT YOU???
113
Jun 20, 2008 at 01:57 PM Anonymous Says:
Insider: Nice story but no comparison. This woman was in the Police Station, not in a car. She was surrounded by police. She did not ask to leave because of Shabbos. She was being booked but requested to have a female officer check her out, including wig.
114
Jun 20, 2008 at 02:03 PM Anonymous Says:
Is what really occurred a chillul hashem? I always thought that something is only a chillul hashem if a Yid does an aveira publicly that may cause other Yidden to stray from Yiddishdkeit. What aveira did this woman do that would be considered a chillul Hashem? We all must daven for her neshomo, and that the cop should be fired for his actions.
115
Jun 20, 2008 at 02:45 PM Shaul Boruch Says:
St. Lawrence, QUOTE:
I sincerely hope that the community will accept my heartfelt apologies for the insensitive behavior that occured.
Ain't no one apologizing if the cops did nothing wrong. Clearly this woman was treating inappropriately. So you can all stop darshening teireh about what may have happened. The cops were wrong.
116
Jun 20, 2008 at 02:48 PM Shaul Boruch Says:
Anon 2:03, the woman isn't dead, we don't have to daven for her neshomo, we can daven for her.
And to all the greste tzadikim, our people throughout the doros gave up their lives in defense of their religion, and you accuse this woman of chillul Hashem? She's a modern day Channah! The only chillul Hashem here is that you have the audacity (read, stupidity) to post such drivel in the first place.
117
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:03 PM ISRAEL IS FOR JEWS... ONLY Says:
HOW DID THE COP KNOW IT WAS A SHAYTEL?...
I think it;s time for a new shaytel macher.....
118
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:05 PM Anonymous Says:
I don't think anyone but for a woman wearing a wig will ever understand how humiliating it is to be asked to remove ur wig!!! I really sympathize with that women regardless of the crime she committed!!! For all of you that claim that there was nothing wrong with it, it's the law, etc. you are obviously a guy or a non frum women!!! Be a little passionate to your fellow sister!!!
119
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:07 PM Ahavas Yisrael anyone? Says:
The reason Halacha was mentioned earlier is because Halacha is entirely absent from this conversation. We live our lives Al Pi Halacha. Those of us that prioritize Halacha over other things, understand what I mean.
120
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:36 PM Anonymous Says:
This was sent to the Supervisor's email:
I am an LAPD Police Officer, and read about the innapropriate action on the part of one or more officers in the Ramapo Police dept. in the case of a local Woman who was abused by him during an arrest.
I speak for myself and not the Dept. This would not have occurred in our Dept. The officer would be put on paid leave and if found guilty would be disciplined.
Of course sensitivity training is called for, but the immediate disciplining of the Officer should be done immediately to emphasis the seriousness of the act, and deter others from repeating it.
121
Jun 20, 2008 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:
The Department should be taken a look at, and found out where the breakdown was. Where do these policies come fomr since some are saying that is the SOP.
122
Jun 20, 2008 at 04:14 PM some food for thought Says:
Matzahlocal101 Says:
I would think that cops that work in Monsey would be appreciative of the fact that their work involves more writing tickets and considerably less getting shot at by drug dealers than other beats. I would also think being that a good percentage of people that work in town hall are frum, cops would be aware of the "cultural needs" of our population. Additionally it would seem there must be some protocol that female arrestees are handled by female cops, (TO PROTECT THE COPS! from claims of abuse.) If women can be photographed for drivers ID (and passports) with the wig, and most women have hair, what would be the big problem of photographing her with the wig?
Mistamah, the cop was probably angry at Rubashkin for hiring illegals and not allowing them to unionize like police, no?
06-20-2008 - 1:06 AM
===============================================
Mistama the reason why this whole thing happening in the first place is because hashem is angry with us . First we have the monsey finkel meat story , that lasts most a few weeks then its all sha shtill not a word more and nothing was implemented to prevent a repeat of the finkel story. Then we have the Rubashkin story and the Rabbonim dont even say boo. Where are our So called Rabbonimm when we need them. Are They afraid to open thier mouth to voice thier opinion because they are afraid of the meat mafiosos? Hashem is showing us that sheytlach is not important for us if we cant even keep the basics of yiddishkiet.
123
Jun 20, 2008 at 04:14 PM Anonymous Says:
it doesnt say any where in the torah to were a sheitel. major difference between a hijab and a sheitel
124
Jun 20, 2008 at 04:36 PM jj Says:
Anonymous Says:
I don't think anyone but for a woman wearing a wig will ever understand how humiliating it is to be asked to remove ur wig!!! I really sympathize with that women regardless of the crime she committed!!! For all of you that claim that there was nothing wrong with it, it's the law, etc. you are obviously a guy or a non frum women!!! Be a little passionate to your fellow sister!!!
06-20-2008 - 3:05 PM
===============================================
just curious . how humiliating can it be for a women to remove her shaytil if the whole reason for wearing one in the first place is so that noone is allowed to see her hair and it reserved only for your husband to see . If its so humiliating it must be that she loks so ugly under her shaytil . then why would your husband want to see your hair. Go make sure that your hair is nice so you wont be humiliated when your husband wants to see it.
125
Jun 20, 2008 at 04:37 PM Anonymous Says:
Get a grip. You live in America where you are innocent until proven guilty. Neither the woman involved nor the officer should have had their names published. Reserve your judgement on the action of both until the facts are released.
126
Jun 20, 2008 at 04:43 PM Anonymous Says:
when will people (law enforcement) learn that pompousness and stupidity will be your downfall everytime..
a wise public servent once said " before you do anything think, will it get your name or picture in the paper> if so, dont do it"
127
Jun 20, 2008 at 05:05 PM bigwheeel Says:
Anon. 1:14AM. Do you know yourself?!?!?! The issue [here] is NOT whether, or what [sort of] crime this person [allegedly] committed! It's about personal, civil and Constitutional rights of defendants! When a person [unfortunately] is arrested, they don't lose ALL their human rights and become an animal! THAT'S THE ISSUE! That's why people invoke (pls. lk. up in dict.) all the comparisons to nazi germany!
128
Jun 20, 2008 at 05:39 PM Anonymous Says:
It's erev Shabbos and I didn’t have time to read all posts here.
I do want to voice my opinion though:
If her rights were violated, she should get a lawyer or go talk to askanim to clear up the matter and not make such a BIG CHILLUL HASHEM!!!!
Crying like the Shvartze cry when they do a crime (or even if they don't) just makes a tremendous Chillul Hashem!
I hope that she is innocent, but that still does not give us the right to talk that way on the police officers & the supervisor!
This is not the derech for frum Jews.
129
Jun 20, 2008 at 05:39 PM Anonymous Says:
CORRECTION TO ALL
she wasnt pulled over for parking tickets not that she deserves what happened
Posted: Friday, 20 June 2008 4:05PM
Policeman Makes N.Y. Woman Remove Religious Wig
SUFFERN, N.Y. (AP) -- A New York town supervisor is apologizing to an Orthodox Jewish woman after a police officer ordered her to remove her wig for a mug shot.
The woman and her husband objected, saying the wig was a religious requirement. Ramapo Town Supervisor Christopher St. Lawrence says the woman wept as the officer insisted.
St. Lawrence says Ramapo police are trained to respect religious and cultural beliefs and the officer should have known the religious nature of the wig. He has ordered new programs in police sensitivity training.
The officer, Jonathan Quinn, is to go before a police board next week. The photo is to be destroyed.
Rockland County District Attorney Thomas Zugibe says the Orthodox couple were being arraigned late Thursday on a charge of third-degree welfare fraud
130
Jun 20, 2008 at 05:59 PM Anonymous Says:
Your all wrong there is no charge in NYS DELINQUENT IN RESPONDING TO TRAFFIC SUMMONS, It’s Aggravated unlicensed operation of a motor vehicle in the third degree. (VTL 511) This is the lowest charge and it’s a Misdemeanor, that means “prints photos the works”. And for all of you armchair lawyers out there. If there was a bench warrant issued then she was driving while suspended, and with regards to the warrant a court was directing any Police Officer to take the subject into custody. A warrant doesn’t say “if you want to”. This is not a discretionary act. As far as having a woman search /pat down a woman prisoner again there is no legal mandate that this can only be done by another woman. It does not matter what the prisoner requests. “The wig”, also no legal mandate that the PO has to respect the prisoners wishes. “That’s ludicrous all of my perps wished I’d leave the cell door open and walk away.” It is for the safety of the officers and the prisoner that a through search be made. Removing the wig is also necessary to obtain “true” identifying photos of the prisoner. Generally a search of a female is done by a female but I reiterate what was previously said, it’s not mandated. I know you all are upset over this woman’s handling but you have to understand that there is a procedure that is carried out while booking a prisoner…and these procedures don’t see color, religion or sexual orientation. If I was arrested I wouldn’t be able to pick and chose how the arrest was processed nor should anyone else. This has nothing to do with guilt or innocence either. If the person arrested had gone to court on her court date then we wouldn’t be writing about this right now. I guess we could also ask the question. Did this woman respect the law and show up in court or did she think she was above the law? And right away you all take out the Anti Semitism card, hang it up it’s getting old Try addressing the preferential treatment by politicians angle. People are not as Anti Semitic as you all make them out to be. They are just sick and tired of an unfair playing field. I speak from over 20 years experience in Law Enforcement. And Oh Yeah Shabbat Shalom
131
Jun 20, 2008 at 06:12 PM Ahavas Yisrael anyone? Says:
Shabbat Shalom, officer. Your words are clearly written and unbiased. The Heimishe Velt thinks they Feir the Velt and their Negios get in the way of clear thinking and the pursuit of true Halacha and sensibility. Listen to reason and worry only about Halacha and everything will be ok.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:16 PM Ahavas Yisrael anyone? Says:
Halacha includes Dina D'Malchusa Dina. Halacha includes the issue of whether it is a transgression to remove a Shaitel if one is forced to do so in the presence of men. If shame is the only issue, then shame should operate at all times, including following the laws of the Medina so you don't have to be wandering around with a warrant for your arrest pending--traffic violations or not. Shame applies to all transgressions. I appreciate what the Police Department does for us on a daily basis. I appreciate our rights AND our laws here in the U.S. I am Makir Tov to the Memshala for their treatment of Jews. I feel sad that so many of you are Kefuyay Tova. So many. Now that's the true shame.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:28 PM Anonymous Says:
just curious . how humiliating can it be for a women to remove her shaytil if the whole reason for wearing one in the first place is so that noone is allowed to see her hair and it reserved only for your husband to see . If its so humiliating it must be that she loks so ugly under her shaytil . then why would your husband want to see your hair. Go make sure that your hair is nice so you wont be humiliated when your husband wants to see it.
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!! Just like there are many different religions in this world, there are many different forms in every religion individually, ever thought about that?!?!
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:30 PM Anonymous Says:
Generally they require you to remove hats and wigs for the mug shot. It is surprising that her request for a female officer was denied. I am sad that this couple had to go through this, and even if they were guilty as charged they deserve to be respected. The cop involved should have some sort of punnishment for this. This is not typical of the Town of Ramapo police department. I found them to be very polite and considerate.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:32 PM Anonymous Says:
4:36
Apparently you are not a religious Jew. The humiliation has nothing to do with how her hair looks. She may or may not even have hair. The humiliation is two-fold: the forced violation of halacha and the infringement on her standards of modesty.
If you are arrested and forced to remove your clothing for a mug shot, would you understand better the feelings of this woman? She has NEVER removed her hair covering in public. Thus she has been degraded and her civil rights have been violated.
Whatever she is accused of is immaterial. She has rights under the US Constitution. Why would they even want a photo of her without her wig? She would never be in public without it.
Obviously the police officer acted inappropriately.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:34 PM Anonymous Says:
Aren't we suppose to be K'Ish Echod B'lev Echod?!?! Why are there sooo many of you giving ur rights to RPD ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE WRONG?!? (And let's say they WERE right, think if this would ever happen the other way around!) Let's help bring Moshiach closer!!!
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:53 PM A nebach story Says:
I was arrested for a misdemeanor, and when i was ready for my mugshot i took off my kippa and the officer there was like "please put that back on your head" and i quickly said no way i dont have to take a picture with that on and not knowing if i was right or wrong with what i said he got a little scared and backed off. But he was very anti semitic and was as rude as can be. He even said he was gonna take many pictures of me and send them in to the Jewish Press in order to embarrass me and saying he will do everything to ruin my life. This was in Brooklyn, they are all out to get us its Eisav sonai es Yakov. And yes the Judge through the case away when i went to trial and this is the truth, the Judge looked at the prosecutor and said i dont believe that this Jewish orthodox boy did all the things that were stated here (i was 90% innocent) and he just threw the case out but just to please the prosecution i did 10 days community service. Just letting people know that cops arrest people for no apparent reason which by me was the case. Have never been so embarrassed in my life.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:53 PM Anonymous Says:
I think that the reason why they have this standard to remove all hats, glasses and wigs is for them to be able to identify criminals. this way if they catch someone they remove their disguise and then they can compare with the photo. I feel sorry for the poor couple, and their children (if they have any) and I hope they have a good shabbos.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 06:59 PM Monsey One Says:
Let's cut the BS its a shame for a lady that goes with a shaitel to take it off and this officer knows that very good don't be stupid if he knew that she has a wig he knew why she is wearing one and that this is her clothing. And all of you that try to make it look like this cop is innocent when a orthodox lady goes to court even if you have to take of your hat no judge asked no one to take of her wig so stop acting dum
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Jun 20, 2008 at 07:33 PM Anonymous Says:
Same poster here, 7:30. Quinn & Quinn? I don't believe in coincidences. Father & son, perhaps?
Obviously this lady was treated abominably & the police recognize that. So they'll institute sensitivity training. Big whoop. It may prevent this in the future, but it doesn't take away this lady's terror.
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Jun 20, 2008 at 07:44 PM tzaddik Says:
Crime does not pay and neither do aveiros especially when a chillul Hashem is involved. Do right bein odom lachaveiro,don't steal,and then worry about sheitel removal,bein odom laMokom. No one would have known about the crime if the behaviour complaint against the cop would have been ignored. How do you expect the police to respect you if,as a frum person,you do a crime and then show how your religion is being violated?First respect your religion yourself!!
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Jun 20, 2008 at 08:53 PM Anonymous Ramapo Says:
The woman (Shifra Cohen) was arrested on a felony welfare fraud charge by the DA's office; the ramapo poliec officer followed the law and procedures in booking her; and Hikind is a joke lookign to make hay on an situation he doesn't have the facts. He should stay in brooklyn (we know he was raised in Monsey)
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Jun 20, 2008 at 10:08 PM Anonymous Says:
get over yourselves! if you commit a crime (even here in this town) be prepared to be treated like a criminal. you cant hide under your wigs forever!
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Jun 21, 2008 at 09:24 AM Anonymous Says:
The Officer did nothing wrong...you get arrested you get photed without a head covering whoever you are Look at Lady Justice (the statue). she is blind for good reason we are all, or should be on an equal playing field in front of her. Stop with the frum rhetoric. This woman got arrested for a felony (welfare fraud et. al.) and was processed accordingly. It is a disgrace to the whole law enforcement profession that St. Lawrence is chastising this officer.
Over 20 years wearing a shield.
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Jun 21, 2008 at 04:21 PM LB Says:
Every one is up set with the officer but how about his safety and that of the other officers,anything can be put under a wig I have seen it plenty of times, if she did not commit welfare fraud she would never have been arrested in the first place.
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Jun 21, 2008 at 08:43 PM Anonymous Says:
she broke the law! it wasnt a traffic violation either! law abiding "citizens" jewish, or goy, have to be processed the same way,,, you want no problems with wigs or hat or titzkas,, do what you are supposed to do and stop playing the anti-semitism card! enough already!
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Jun 21, 2008 at 08:53 PM Anonymous Says:
Can you spell FELONY ?
Not TRAFFIC VIOLATION !!
And Ramapo Police didn't even arrest her!!
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Jun 21, 2008 at 08:56 PM Anonymous Says:
ok now , this police officer arrested a woman- yes she happened to be frum, he processed the arrest as protocol calls, and the entire monsey community takes it personally! his intent was not to humiliate her, and to makes matters worse "you all" assume the entire ramapo pd is out to get the jews- you should see how you all affect the community with you self rightous, self centered behavior. even the way you treat the jews who are not frum,,,,,,,, you should pray on that and have some humility towards the HUMAN RACE,, NOT JUST YOUR BORTHERS AND SISTERS OF CHASID!
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Jun 21, 2008 at 09:28 PM Anonymous Says:
Very simple........do not commit a crime and you will not have a problem. She committed welfare fraud.
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Jun 21, 2008 at 11:39 PM Anonymous Says:
US law treats people as innocent until proven guilty.
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Jun 22, 2008 at 01:08 AM Anonymous Says:
St. Lawrence's words are worthless as he is just sucking up to the crooked "chareidim" as usual. For all you frummacks out there who are so worried about her shaitel, are you also so worried about the countless taxpayers from who she is stealing through welfare fraud (if the charges are correct)?
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Jun 22, 2008 at 01:18 AM MAYER Says:
the couple are not frm new square they are from monsey
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Jun 22, 2008 at 02:38 AM Anonymous Says:
I'm a frum woman who covers her hair 24/7, this woman gets no sympathy from me. If she had no problem stealing money from the hardworking/taxpaying people like myself, then she deserves no sympathy. Why is taking a wig off a bigger aveira than stealing? She is shooting herself in the foot by making a big deal out of this.....
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Jun 22, 2008 at 01:00 PM Future Town of Ramapo Leader Says:
"The officer acted with the utmost professionalism and treated the arrested individual in the same manner any person would have been treated during the arrest processing," Procter said.
First and foremost, I congratulate this officer for doing his job.
Process and procedure is highly respected in this trade and the police officer should not be blamed for following through.
Of all the press this story has created as a result of a certain town administrator bringing a public servants name forward we are missing one fundamental key element from this piece of news.
Simply – why was this woman arrested?
What did she do?
How prevalent is this crime in Ramapo compared to other similar areas?
What is the financial impact of this type of crime in the town?
Why is it occuring?
Is it always caught?
If it is not caught, how can we catch the offenders?
How can we eliminate it?
A blame and name tactic is a remedial politicians answer to calm a voter base. The questions above quantify the problem and can resolve the occurrence. Apparently, one was pressured to act otherwise.
Many in the community need a clear explanation of what she was doing wrong and the impact it has in the Town of Ramapo, who is paying for it? Perhaps the town administrator can look into this county wide Problem instead of taking on his police department?
It is time for the Towns people with common interests to come at the aid of their Police. If one cannot do their job to protect Law-abiding citizens we have lost track of this area.
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Jun 22, 2008 at 02:58 PM Anonymous Says:
If she didn't like it she shouldn't have put herself in a position to be arrested.
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Jun 22, 2008 at 08:04 PM Anonymous Says:
The truth will come out as it always does (eventually).
RPD officers, with rare exception, act with the highest level of professionalism EVERY DAY. That's why they have the respect and gratitude of 95% of this community. We enjoy a pretty safe community because of the cooperation ON BOTH SIDES.
To the other 5%: We know who you are. You run your mouths and embarrass the rest of us with your mean and careless comments to the media. Go pay your parking tickets.
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Jun 23, 2008 at 02:15 AM Matzahlocal101 Says:
>SD Says:
"Given that everyone here seems to be so knowledgeable about Jewish Law, I was wondering if someone could cite where it says in Shulchan Aruch that a married woman is not permitted to momentarily remove her wig indoors, especially where the only people present are non-Jews?
--------------------------------------------
Jewish law says as follows: The halacha is yichud of a married woman with a goy is an issur d'oreisa. (Even Haezer 22:3&5) So the situation you suggest would only be mutar with women only anyway. Obviously you're modern orthodox if you need to ask. The photograph goes into circulation anyway, so if someone took nude photos of your wife privately in the house would you feel better?
__________________________________________________
Food for thought,
My Rubashkin comment was sarcastic. Thank you for taking it so seriously.
_______________________________________________
"Ahavas Yisrael anyone? Says:
Halacha includes Dina D'Malchusa Dina. Halacha includes the issue of whether it is a transgression to remove a Shaitel if one is forced to do so in the presence of men."
------------------------------------
Sometimes the ignorance of all things Jewish in this forum simply amazes me. Dina damalchusa applies to Dinay mumonos. The requirement of a women to be properly covered is arayos. as in Yeharag v'all ya'over. (ayin sanhedrin 85.) Additionally, your lack of ahavas yisrael in giving the policeman the benefit of the doubt but not the Jewish woman is commendable...
by the Klan or the White Aryan Resistance.
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Jun 24, 2008 at 12:38 AM Anonymous Says:
She was arrested for Welfare Fraud, a felony in NY State, punishible by over a year in prison. It was not for a traffic summons. She was arrested following an investigation by the Rockland County District Attorneys Office. She turned herself in and was processed by The RPD, who followed the law and the officer followed his rules and regualtions set forth by his superiors.
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Jun 25, 2008 at 04:03 PM Jerry Says:
Innocent until proven gilty is the law. The officer did it on purpose. All the other Police officers saw what was going on and did nothing. That police officer should be fired. The other repromanded. The women should sue.
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Jun 25, 2008 at 05:45 PM TellTheTruth Says:
Jerry:
Since you were in the room when this happened, exactly how many officers were there?
Did the gonif actually request a female officer, or did you read about that here?
What charge should they use against the officer to fire him, or do the police have less right to due process than anyone else?
.....And since Mr. St. Lawrence won't take the necessary action, shouldn't HE be fired too??
161
Jun 25, 2008 at 05:57 PM TellTheTruth Says:
Oh, and I forgot to add a question...
Did the thief even take the opportunity to refuse to take off her sheitel? Did she attempt to explain the nature of the insult they may have inadvertently perpetrated upon her? What words were exchanged?
I only ask because you were there, in the room, which qualifies you to pass judgement on the police, but not the thief.
If she had refused, do you think they would have forcibly pulled it off? If they had done that, then what action should be taken against the officer? Fire him twice?
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Jun 25, 2008 at 05:59 PM TellTheTruth Says:
Oops, forgot another,
Did the District Attorney's people send a woman to arrest the thief? Why not? Did the arresting officer touch the woman during the course of the arrest? Why isn't anyone screaming for the head of the D.A. on a platter?
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Jun 25, 2008 at 06:11 PM Anonymous Says:
HEY LOCAL 101,
I JUST RE-READ YOUR 6-20 POST. MAYBE YOU BETTER TALK TO ALL THE FRUM EMPLOYEES AT TOWN HALL AND ASK THEM WHAT THEY THINK OF THE RAMAPO COPS.
THE 10 OR SO OF THEM I KNOW THINK HIGHLY OF THE PD. WONDER WHY?
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Jun 26, 2008 at 09:15 AM Anonymous Says:
I find it interesting that many religious women are fingerprinted almost daily at local police departments for jobs such as teacher and child caregivers. They are fingerprinted by male officers and never say a thing. Perhaps it is because at that moment it is beneficial to them.
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Jun 28, 2008 at 05:43 PM Anonymous Says:
An orthodox woman was arrested by Ramapo PD today for "unspecified charges"? What were the charges? Not many "innocent" folks get arrested by the police. Maybe next time your car is stolen, your home is broken into or you are a victim of an assault you could just go to the rabbi and skip the police? Not many people sign up to take the garbage that police officers are required to put up with. Not happy with Ramapo PD? Sign up for the next police test then!