New York City – Reb Shimshon Raphael Hirsch Zt”l ‘Torah Im Derech Eretz’ Philosophy At Height Of Controversy

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    New York City – Speaking at the 200th birthday celebration of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch this past Shabbos, Khal Adath Jeshurun’s Rav Yisroel Mantel declared that the philosophical credo of Rav Hirsch, Torah Im Derech Eretz, is not viable in the absence of its chief advocate.

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    Rav Hirsch was a 19th century champion of Orthodoxy and the founder of Khal Adath Jeshurun’s parent community in Frankfurt, Germany.

    Rav Mantel’s declaration, which angered many in the community, came at a sit-down kiddush at Dr. Raphael Moller Hall in Washington Heights after Shabbos morning services. He said that only Rav Hirsch, a great man who knew the fine boundaries between what is religiously permissible and what is prohibited, could make Torah Im Derech Eretz workable.

    Our generation, he said, must follow today’s gedolei HaTorah (great Torah leaders).

    After Shabbos, Dr. Eric Erlbach, KAJ president for over two decades, resigned.

    The Torah Im Derech Eretz philosophy calls for the active engagement between Torah and culture and society.

    Samson Bechhofer, a great-great-grandchild of Rav Hirsch, spoke first at the kiddush. The synagogue’s choir conductor and a lawyer by profession, Bechhofer lamented the educational policies of the community’s Yeshiva Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch school in recent years.

    “If the goal of our kehilla and yeshiva is to have all of our sons and daughters end up in Lakewood – and I use Lakewood as a metaphor – then I submit that we are not being faithful to our founder’s philosophy or Weltanschauung, nor are we doing the future of our kehilla any great favors,” Bechhofer said.

    Rav Mantel stood up and walked out of the hall at these words. He later returned and told the several hundred assembled that “grandchildren and lawyers” will not decide how to implement Torah Im Derech Eretz.

    Other speakers at the 200th celebration Shabbos included Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Meir Tzvi Bergman (the son-in-law of Rav Elazar Menachem Shach), noted columnist Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblum, and Rabbi Eliyahu Meir Klugman, Rav Hirsch’s biographer.

    Among their many remarks, Rabbi Bergman praised Rav Hirsch for his Chumash commentary, which has recently been retranslated; Rabbi Rosenblum lauded Rav Hirsch’s philosophy of Judaism, from which, he said, many Jews can derive much-needed spirit and purpose; and Rabbi Klugman credited Rav Hirsch for teaching all of Orthodox Jewry how to live authentically Jewish lives in a world without ghetto walls.

    Rav Mantel also highly praised Rav Hirsch during his sermon in shul, reminding the audience that Rav Yisrael Salanter (1810-1883) once said, “Where is there a Gan Eden big enough for Rav Hirsch?”

    Speaking later at Seudah Shlishis, Rav Mantel credited Rav Hirsch for demonstrating definitively that Jews can plant the Torah in any culture.

    Torah Im Derech Eretz, Rav Shimon Schwab (rabbi of KAJ from 1958-1995) once said, “means the Torah’s conquest of life and not the Torah’s flight from life. It means the Torah’s casting a light into the darkness rather than hiding from the darkness. It means applying Torah to the earth and not divorcing it from the earth.”


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    103 Comments
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    Oy Gevald
    Oy Gevald
    15 years ago

    Rav Mantel is a true leader. This is not the first time he has spoken out on controversial issues. He has also been instrumental in walking out of Rubashkin’s and taking the KAJ Hechsher along with him.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    he is anti lubavitch.

    thats the reason he left rubashkin

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Gedolei hatorah at the time praised rav Sh. R. Hirsch for his ideas, but commended it only be demonstrated in Germany, where the winds of haskalah were very strong and destroying the jewish youth in masses, and the great leader in germany Rabbi hirsch was the one to conquer them with his philosophy, and saving hundreds of yiddishe nashamos, however, in other places in Europe the giant gedolim did not adopt his ideas. zecher tzadik livracha.

    Moishe Mulva
    Moishe Mulva
    15 years ago

    Mr. Bechhofer, what a ‘chutzpah’! To think that we can remain loyal to to Torah and work for a living!!..Oy Vey Izmir!!…What has this world come to?…Next thing we’ll hear is that the Moshiach will be revealed as a former ‘accountant’ or ‘lawyer’.

    Chareidi Leumi
    Chareidi Leumi
    15 years ago

    Actually, Rav Hirsh’s philosophy of TIDE was absolutely l’chatchila for him and any suggestion that he held otherwise is a disgrace to his memory. As far as the acceptance of his philosophy by other Gedolim is a different story and for many the acceptance was only as a Hora’at Sha’ah.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Rabbi Hirsch’s philosophy is so true, that it is just as valid today as it was in his lifetime. This person, as well as his philosophy, was so emesdig and pure, that it has the durability of emmes. I am not familiar with the higher educational system of KAJ, whether they have a mesivta or not, but it seems from the quoted comments, that tney don’t. So when a yekke becomes a litvak, it is as bad if not worse than when a ashkenaz becomes a chosid. Traditions and values get thrown out of the window, and what is left is in most cases a veneer. There is something powerful about “al titosh toras imecha” and when that is absent, you are going nowhere.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Oh yes, and if Rabbi Mantel thinks that Lakewood is the realization of Torah im DerechEretz, then he is doing KAJ and the “shitta” of RSRH a disservice.

    its no joke
    its no joke
    15 years ago

    why cant moshiach be a doctor, accountant or lawyer?

    Simcha
    Simcha
    15 years ago

    Revisionist history, it seems to be a theme in certain circles these days. It is kind of ironic that it would happen from Rabbi Hirsch’s own community, because this is one of the things that he fought against. We would, however not know this because like many great works his writings have been “edited” to fit in with a certain agenda.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Rav Hirsch wrote: “Judaism never remained aloof from true civilisation and progress; in almost every era its adherents were fully abreast of contemporary learning and very often excelled their contemporaries. If in recent centuries German Jews remained more or less aloof from European civilisation the fault lay not in their religion but in the tyranny which confined them by force within the walls of their ghettoes and denied them intercourse with the outside world.”

    DRE53
    DRE53
    15 years ago

    its no joke:

    i agree with you. the lubavitcher rebbe, who is believed by many people to be moshiach, was a college graduate.

    Charlie Brown
    Charlie Brown
    15 years ago

    I wasn’t there but based on the reporting above, Rav Montal didn’t say anything against Rav Hirsch or his shitta of TIDE. He didn’t say it was a hora’as shoah or that Lakewood is the embodiment of it.

    What he did say is that now we that don’t have someone on the stature of Rav Hirsch to decide how to apply the TIDE philosophy in todays times, therefore we have to abandon it and instead follow in the path of other litvishe gedolim.

    Basically that we need living gedolim to lead us, and Rav Hirsch is unfortunately no longer here to lead us.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Dreidel; the Rebbe never graduated college; many have examined the records from the Sorbonne in the years he was there, and he audited a number of classes, but was never an enrolled student.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Charlie Brown… how sad for you if you actually believe that on cannot follow a godol once he is deceased….

    Charlie Brown
    Charlie Brown
    15 years ago

    you definitely can follow a deceased godol, but only if you have a living godol to apply the principles of the deceased godol to the changing times. Otherwise how do you know how the deceased godol would feel about new situations?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Does TIDE require a person to become a lawyer or professional? Becoming a professional today requires attending University as in yesteryear, But the atmosphere of the University has changed. Would Rav Hirsch still encourage practical TIDE today?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Of course we follow dead Gedolim – we ask the living ones to advise us Based on the Gedolim who are not here

    Moishe Mulva
    Moishe Mulva
    15 years ago

    One of the sillier threads….who cares?..gadol #1 , Gadol #2 …dead or alive…who follows who..What’s on first?…Who’s on second….

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    His name was Shamshon, not Shimshon.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    What I’d like to know is this:

    If we’ll throw out Torah Im Derech Eretz for the yungeleit who shouldn’t have to work , then how come it’s not thrown out for old geezers like me and you who have to go to work?

    Or are we geezers the ultimate shmendricks who work for the yungeleit so that they can teitch upp R’ Hirsch the way they want or do away with his philosophy altogether.

    In other words , why isn’t it good for the geezer if it’s good for the geese?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    people living in whashionton hights care

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Mantel is a Kehilla Rov and by definition follows the shito of the kehilla. If he was unable to appreciate –or for that matter understand the philsosphy of TIDE he should not have taken the job.

    Addittionaly, his collosal failure in Lucerne should have been enough of an indication to KAJ that this was not the candiatae to take on the mantel of Rav Breuer and Rav Schawab.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    who said he cant appresiate? he just said it cant be done without R’ hirsch

    Charlie Brown
    Charlie Brown
    15 years ago

    anon 2:23 I agree with you completely.

    anon 2:19 That is a perfect example of a question which can only be answered by a living godol.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Charlie, you’re off the wall. ma inyan shmita aitzel har sinai? RSRH is here no more, so we need to follow the litvishe gedolim. KAJ seems like a community of outcasts, with no trace of gedolim. Sad commentary, if all the gedolim are in Lakewood exclusively. nebech.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Where was Rabbi Gelley in all of this ?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Rav Breuer And Rav Schwab knew that Rav Hirsch was not alive in their time. But they were committed to his derech. Rav Breuer And Rav Schwab wrote many articals about the derech of Rav Hirsch and claimed it is very revelant in our generation, The problem is the rabbonim of today have their own vision. as a famous poet once wrote” we would like to live the way we once did but history will not permit it” leyech bishalom

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    >Where was Rabbi Gelley in all of this ?

    Ill. He needs a big refuah.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    He’s not well ?

    flabbergasted
    flabbergasted
    15 years ago

    Basically that we need living gedolim to lead us, and Rav Hirsch is unfortunately no longer here to lead us.

    06-26-2008 – 2:01 PM

    =============================================

    This is the most insane comment i ve ever heard of.

    Maybe we should not hold by moshe meeseenai because moshe rabenu is no longer alive. We should not any longer from the Rambam firstly because he was a DOCTOR ~hashem yerachem~ lo alenu, and also he is no longer alive so how can we understand his seforim??

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    to charley brown. it is true that Rav Hirsch is no longer alive, but Rashi and the Rambam are also no longer alive have we nothing to learn from them?

    hershele
    hershele
    15 years ago

    I think that with all the recent stories of frum jews being arrested for shady business practices since Factory Jobs are gone in the USA only service jobs that are left, they would be better of if they would just listen to Rabbi SR Hirsch OBM to get a dergree and have “Parnasah Bederech Kavod” as they say “Beheter Velow BeISSUR”

    let the rabbonim endorse Turo or other Kosher Collage programs like online degrees etc.

    Hershele from Lakewood NJ

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    It appears that many here are under the impression that a core concept of TIDE is that one should work for a living. This is a misconception. TIDE is about one’s attitude toward the secular/non-Jewish aspects of society and life, whether one should insulate one’s self from the world at large, or be a part of the world while rising above it.

    No, that one should work for a living has nothing to do with TIDE – rather, that is the basic, clear Torah view as can be found throughout Chumash, the Gemara, and Chazal.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The Rabbanim of today are controlled by Money and Politics (and Kupat H’air!) and their self serving agendas. All we have left are the teachings and sephorim of Rav Moshe, RSRH, Rambam and other gedolim of yesteryear to rely on and guide us until the coming of moshiach. May we all be able to hold on!!

    Charlie Brown
    Charlie Brown
    15 years ago

    This is the most insane comment i ve ever heard of.

    Maybe we should not hold by moshe meeseenai because moshe rabenu is no longer alive. We should not any longer from the Rambam firstly because he was a DOCTOR ~hashem yerachem~ lo alenu, and also he is no longer alive so how can we understand his seforim??

    06-26-2008 – 3:32 PM

    —————————–

    Read my other posts, sorry if I wasn’t clear in my first post. I’ll try to make myself more clear.

    Let me turn it around and ask why we need Rabbonim today if we can just look it up in the rambam and shulchan oruch? Part of the answer is that new situations come up which are not written there. Would the Rambam allow turning on and off electric lights on shabbos? On my own I wouldn’t know because electricity wasn’t around in the Rambam’s days. Therefore we needed people like Rav Chaim Ozer who was alive when electricity came around to pasken these things. Of course he didn’t make up a psak out of thin air, but based it on the immortal words of the rambam, shulchan oruch and other rishonim and acharonim.

    Look thru the Igros Moshe or any other shaalos uteshuvos sefer and you will find thousands of other questions that klal yisroel needed answered by living gedolim based on the immortal words of previous deceased gedolim.

    Similarly, one can have the utmost respect for Rav Hirsch and his shitta of TIDE and want to follow it, but we still need living gedolim to apply his principles to todays times. One example was posted above by someone else – what would Rav Hirsch say about boys going to college with the immoral atmosphere so prevalent in todays colleges/universities? I don’t know. And I think Rav Montal was saying that since we no longer have gedolim such as Rav Hirsch, Rav Breuer or Rav Schwab to answer questions such as these, we need to abandon ship. Again, to be clear, not because deceased gedolim don’t count, but because we need living gedolim to guide our way based on the mesorah of our previous generations of gedolim.

    Homey
    Homey
    15 years ago

    Hershele is so correct.

    TIDE is more relevant today with all the scandals being perpetrated by frum Yidden left and right. The problem is that KAJ is the only kehilla that ADVOCATES people to learn and make a living at the same time. Other yeshivas have the Mashgichim and Rosh Yeshivas giving shmoozen how important it is to sit and learn all day for the rest of your life and belittle ba’ale batim. So bochrim are so turned off from even contemplating about making a living while they’re in Yeshiva.

    (Then the same Rosh Yeshivas and Mashgichim go to wealthy ba’alei batim and change their tune, kiss up to them, and marry their children off to these families).

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    No, that one should work for a living has nothing to do with TIDE – rather, that is the basic, clear Torah view as can be found throughout Chumash, the Gemara, and Chazal….

    So how come the eshivishe shita today is not to follow this view?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    “I don’t know. And I think Rav Montal was saying that since we no longer have gedolim such as Rav Hirsch, Rav Breuer or Rav Schwab to answer questions such as these, we need to abandon ship. Again, to be clear, not because deceased gedolim don’t count, but because we need living gedolim to guide our way based on the mesorah of our previous generations of gedolim.”

    So FINE! KAJ needs to oust Rav Mantel and get a living, breathing Rav who will support their Shittos instead of sabotaging them. Throw out the baby NOT the bathwater!!!!

    A TIDE Yid
    A TIDE Yid
    15 years ago

    The statement that we need living gedolim to apply the principles of deceased ones is ever so correct. But that means that R’ Mantel is saying either a) he (and Rav Gelley) are not gedolim or b) they do not believe in the TIDE philosophy. Certainly Rav Gelley has never said b). If R’ Mantel feels that way then he should not have taken the job. If it is a), then he should have made that clear.

    Indeed TIDE is not a mandate to go to college or to go to work. Rather, it is a philosophy which says that the Torah was given to people of this world and therefore it applies to this world. The belief is that it is wrong and unnecessary to extricate ones’ self from the world in order to learn Torah (as the Litvishe philosophy advocates). Learning Torah is part of TIDE (indeed, it is the first word and foremost in the philosophy, unlike some spinoffs believe). A full day of learning is not excluded, but other worldly knowledge is also important (though you don’t have to go to a university to get knowledge if you know how to read).

    ChV”Sh for me to say which way is right, but I want to make one observation. Those who only learn Torah on the inside of 4 walls are always unable to sustain their level of Frumkeit when/if forced to step outside. To the TIDE Yid, there is no outside. His Frumkeit is the same everywhere he goes.

    To the ridiculous poster who said that “all the Gedolim are in Lakewood”: It’s simply not true. Let me point out that many of those who you respect in Lakewood as Gedolim actually come from WH, KAJ, and went to Breuers straight through school, some of them including Beis Medrash and Kollel. Don’t believe all the anti-yekke things you hear. I don’t know why it is but for some reason the Litvishe world sees fit to treat yekkes the same way Goyim treat Litvishe (and all) Yidden. But then, they don’t know from psychology, do they?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    And I think Rav Montal was saying that since we no longer have gedolim such as Rav Hirsch, Rav Breuer or Rav Schwab to answer questions such as these, we need to abandon ship. Again, to be clear, not because deceased gedolim don’t count, but because we need living gedolim to guide our way based on the mesorah of our previous generations of gedolim.” ……

    We HAVE living gedolim. LO ALMAN YISROEL.. We CAN ask and discuss halachos with them. So if the Chazal and all the Rishonim and Achronim are no longer alive we say ..eh..! Since they’re no longer alive we can’t pasken and let’s leave it tha that? Since the Bays Yosef and the Chofetz Chaim are no longer with us we don’t ask Rabbonim to pasken and guide? Certainly we don’t say “Well we have nobody today to speak for them”. This is nonsense. .Torah is for the living. It’s the Rabbonim that are ALIVE who pasken L’mahseh on everything , each Rav according to his expertise.( Of course based on previous mesorah and halacha) Otherwise we’d never know what to do.AND there are gedolim who see nothing wrong with TIDE.

    Charlie Brown
    Charlie Brown
    15 years ago

    So FINE! KAJ needs to oust Rav Mantel and get a living, breathing Rav who will support their Shittos instead of sabotaging them. Throw out the baby NOT the bathwater!!!!

    06-26-2008 – 4:22 PM

    Hey, I am not a washington heightser and I wasn’t there when he spoke, i was just commenting on how I understood his words based on the reporting above. Its possible I misunderstood or that the reporting was innacurate. Sorry if I offended anyone.

    A TIDE Yid
    A TIDE Yid
    15 years ago

    Just one more thing:

    It’s hard to go against the chip leader. The Litvishe mehalech is predominent in the Torah world. There are tremendous zechusim backing this way of life that have translated into world domination. It’s not hard to imagine what they are either.

    But KAJ has plenty of its own zechusim. Vehoraya, they are still around. It’s not for the pitsy little yeshiva guys to run around saying that KAJ is no good or that R’ Hirsch is no good. They don’t even know what they’re talking about.

    The good bochurim from WH who want to learn in good yeshivos have to go to Litvishe ones (which are the best nowadays) just like Chassidishe bochurim have to. Personally I think that it’s a mistake that they abandon their heritage once they become successful but each one must have a reason for doing so.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    …since we no longer have gedolim such as ..

    I’m sorry. I agree with the poster above . The Rabbonim who are living presently are out gedolim and and that’s the way it should be.

    We learn this from the Kohen. Everybody is familiar with the posuk and the drash about someone not willing to give trumah to his Kohen saying that the Kohen in the previous generation was a bigger tzaddik. No , Bayomim Ho’haym ,it says. You give to the kohen in YOUR generation. He’s the best you’ve got.AND he may be even a bigger tzaddik. You can’t judge.

    Avraham
    Avraham
    15 years ago

    Whoever commented about KAJ being a community of outcasts and bereft of true gedolei hador, let me say that you’re a sick and need some help. Before your wicked fingers dare to spread lies about a kehillah with a tradition that it entails, think of Rav Breuer and Rav Schwab, then go to and place your hands on a burner to have a bit of kaporah in this world. I’m not a yekke (even if my last name is German-Jewish) but have been exposed to the kehillah for many years, and you’re plain wrong and malicious.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    yes, the Spinka Rav is the best we have!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    WHAT If (ADLIB)

    Khal Adath Jeshurun’s Rav Yisroel Mantel declared that the philosophical credo of THE CHAFETZ CHAIM, ON LASHON HARA, is not viable in the absence of its chief advocate.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    i feel the pain of the yekes its sad to see a whole movement collapse washignton heights is shrinking in monsey they have a few pepole ——finkel the realty is most kids of the old yekes r either in lakewood or yeshivshe guys

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    All the above arguments regarding Rav Hirsch philosophy have no real meaning.

    The question is not “TIDE” or career and professions vs Kollel.

    The challenges and threats of our generation, the dangers facing out youth today are NOT nor in any way similair to the challenges faced by Jewish Youth in Rav Hirsch’s time.

    In Rav Hirsch generation youth were leaving Yeshivahs, Talmud study and then dropping religion. This was the challenge Rav Hirsch confronted, and for this he created Torah im Derech Eretz to stem the tide and bring the youth back to religion. And, sure he was succesful.

    These are not the challenges faced by the youth of today and as a result if the sickness and disease changed the cure must change. One can not and may not apply a proven cure for a specific disease to another disease. The same is with those that wish to apply Rav Hirsch and his teachings in Germany, or the teachings of Harav Breuer and Harav Schwab to todays specific challenges.

    Also, let us not forget. Thousands of lost jewish youth have returned to Torah true Judaism through the yeshiva system. Ask Ohr Somayach, Aish Hatorah, and the many, many Yeshivahs geared to the Baal Tshuvah community both in Israel and America. Witness the miracles of Torah Study in the Swiss [IRG Zurich] funded Yeshivah in Moscow. Yes Torah study is a proven philosophy for todays generation.

    Yes, we all know that some families and some communities turn out professionals who are torah true Jews and fighters for Torah true Judaism, nevertheless pure Torah is definitly a proven cure for some of this generations ills.

    Moishe Mulva
    Moishe Mulva
    15 years ago

    As time goes, the meaning of a gadol gets diluted and meaningless. When a gadol(s) become so predictable, by ossering everything they see, generating bans, and machmir on every topic…..it’s time to let go…I could also say no to everything…These gedolim aren’t good enough(or afraid) to paskin shaylos with a balance. Not everything should be assur or banned. These poskim are hopelessly out of touch about the real world and are afraid of their own shadows. All the ‘askanim’ should be hoisted on their own petards. Have a good shabbos!!!

    Pesach
    Pesach
    15 years ago

    To all those who don’t believe in TIDE and who believe in only spending one’s time in learning, please do not contact me for money. I work for a living. You disapprove of how I live my life so please don’t ask me for any of the fruits of my “sinful” labor.