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New York City - Reb Shimshon Raphael Hirsch Zt"l 'Torah Im Derech Eretz' Philosophy At Height Of Controversy

Published on: June 26, 2008 12:12 PM
By: The Jewish Press
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New York City - Speaking at the 200th birthday celebration of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch this past Shabbos, Khal Adath Jeshurun’s Rav Yisroel Mantel declared that the philosophical credo of Rav Hirsch, Torah Im Derech Eretz, is not viable in the absence of its chief advocate.

Rav Hirsch was a 19th century champion of Orthodoxy and the founder of Khal Adath Jeshurun’s parent community in Frankfurt, Germany.
Rav Mantel’s declaration, which angered many in the community, came at a sit-down kiddush at Dr. Raphael Moller Hall in Washington Heights after Shabbos morning services. He said that only Rav Hirsch, a great man who knew the fine boundaries between what is religiously permissible and what is prohibited, could make Torah Im Derech Eretz workable.
Our generation, he said, must follow today’s gedolei HaTorah (great Torah leaders).
After Shabbos, Dr. Eric Erlbach, KAJ president for over two decades, resigned.
The Torah Im Derech Eretz philosophy calls for the active engagement between Torah and culture and society.
Samson Bechhofer, a great-great-grandchild of Rav Hirsch, spoke first at the kiddush. The synagogue’s choir conductor and a lawyer by profession, Bechhofer lamented the educational policies of the community’s Yeshiva Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch school in recent years.
“If the goal of our kehilla and yeshiva is to have all of our sons and daughters end up in Lakewood – and I use Lakewood as a metaphor – then I submit that we are not being faithful to our founder’s philosophy or Weltanschauung, nor are we doing the future of our kehilla any great favors,” Bechhofer said.
Rav Mantel stood up and walked out of the hall at these words. He later returned and told the several hundred assembled that “grandchildren and lawyers” will not decide how to implement Torah Im Derech Eretz.
Other speakers at the 200th celebration Shabbos included Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Meir Tzvi Bergman (the son-in-law of Rav Elazar Menachem Shach), noted columnist Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblum, and Rabbi Eliyahu Meir Klugman, Rav Hirsch’s biographer.
Among their many remarks, Rabbi Bergman praised Rav Hirsch for his Chumash commentary, which has recently been retranslated; Rabbi Rosenblum lauded Rav Hirsch’s philosophy of Judaism, from which, he said, many Jews can derive much-needed spirit and purpose; and Rabbi Klugman credited Rav Hirsch for teaching all of Orthodox Jewry how to live authentically Jewish lives in a world without ghetto walls.
Rav Mantel also highly praised Rav Hirsch during his sermon in shul, reminding the audience that Rav Yisrael Salanter (1810-1883) once said, “Where is there a Gan Eden big enough for Rav Hirsch?”
Speaking later at Seudah Shlishis, Rav Mantel credited Rav Hirsch for demonstrating definitively that Jews can plant the Torah in any culture.
Torah Im Derech Eretz, Rav Shimon Schwab (rabbi of KAJ from 1958-1995) once said, “means the Torah’s conquest of life and not the Torah’s flight from life. It means the Torah’s casting a light into the darkness rather than hiding from the darkness. It means applying Torah to the earth and not divorcing it from the earth.”


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1

 Jun 26, 2008 at 12:34 PM Oy Gevald Says:

Rav Mantel is a true leader. This is not the first time he has spoken out on controversial issues. He has also been instrumental in walking out of Rubashkin's and taking the KAJ Hechsher along with him.

2

 Jun 26, 2008 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:

he is anti lubavitch.
thats the reason he left rubashkin

3

 Jun 26, 2008 at 12:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Gedolei hatorah at the time praised rav Sh. R. Hirsch for his ideas, but commended it only be demonstrated in Germany, where the winds of haskalah were very strong and destroying the jewish youth in masses, and the great leader in germany Rabbi hirsch was the one to conquer them with his philosophy, and saving hundreds of yiddishe nashamos, however, in other places in Europe the giant gedolim did not adopt his ideas. zecher tzadik livracha.

4

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:09 PM Moishe Mulva Says:

Mr. Bechhofer, what a 'chutzpah'! To think that we can remain loyal to to Torah and work for a living!!..Oy Vey Izmir!!...What has this world come to?...Next thing we'll hear is that the Moshiach will be revealed as a former 'accountant' or 'lawyer'.

5

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:13 PM Chareidi Leumi Says:

Actually, Rav Hirsh's philosophy of TIDE was absolutely l'chatchila for him and any suggestion that he held otherwise is a disgrace to his memory. As far as the acceptance of his philosophy by other Gedolim is a different story and for many the acceptance was only as a Hora'at Sha'ah.

6

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Hirsch's philosophy is so true, that it is just as valid today as it was in his lifetime. This person, as well as his philosophy, was so emesdig and pure, that it has the durability of emmes. I am not familiar with the higher educational system of KAJ, whether they have a mesivta or not, but it seems from the quoted comments, that tney don't. So when a yekke becomes a litvak, it is as bad if not worse than when a ashkenaz becomes a chosid. Traditions and values get thrown out of the window, and what is left is in most cases a veneer. There is something powerful about "al titosh toras imecha" and when that is absent, you are going nowhere.

7

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Oh yes, and if Rabbi Mantel thinks that Lakewood is the realization of Torah im DerechEretz, then he is doing KAJ and the "shitta" of RSRH a disservice.

8

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:30 PM its no joke Says:

why cant moshiach be a doctor, accountant or lawyer?

9

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:33 PM Simcha Says:

Revisionist history, it seems to be a theme in certain circles these days. It is kind of ironic that it would happen from Rabbi Hirsch’s own community, because this is one of the things that he fought against. We would, however not know this because like many great works his writings have been “edited” to fit in with a certain agenda.

10

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Hirsch wrote: "Judaism never remained aloof from true civilisation and progress; in almost every era its adherents were fully abreast of contemporary learning and very often excelled their contemporaries. If in recent centuries German Jews remained more or less aloof from European civilisation the fault lay not in their religion but in the tyranny which confined them by force within the walls of their ghettoes and denied them intercourse with the outside world."

11

 Jun 26, 2008 at 01:47 PM dreidel Says:

its no joke:
i agree with you. the lubavitcher rebbe, who is believed by many people to be moshiach, was a college graduate.

12

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:01 PM Charlie Brown Says:

I wasn't there but based on the reporting above, Rav Montal didn't say anything against Rav Hirsch or his shitta of TIDE. He didn't say it was a hora'as shoah or that Lakewood is the embodiment of it.

What he did say is that now we that don't have someone on the stature of Rav Hirsch to decide how to apply the TIDE philosophy in todays times, therefore we have to abandon it and instead follow in the path of other litvishe gedolim.

Basically that we need living gedolim to lead us, and Rav Hirsch is unfortunately no longer here to lead us.

13

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Dreidel; the Rebbe never graduated college; many have examined the records from the Sorbonne in the years he was there, and he audited a number of classes, but was never an enrolled student.

14

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Charlie Brown... how sad for you if you actually believe that on cannot follow a godol once he is deceased....

15

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:18 PM Charlie Brown Says:

you definitely can follow a deceased godol, but only if you have a living godol to apply the principles of the deceased godol to the changing times. Otherwise how do you know how the deceased godol would feel about new situations?

16

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Does TIDE require a person to become a lawyer or professional? Becoming a professional today requires attending University as in yesteryear, But the atmosphere of the University has changed. Would Rav Hirsch still encourage practical TIDE today?

17

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Of course we follow dead Gedolim - we ask the living ones to advise us Based on the Gedolim who are not here

18

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:34 PM Moishe Mulva Says:

One of the sillier threads....who cares?..gadol #1 , Gadol #2...dead or alive...who follows who..What's on first?...Who's on second....

19

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

His name was Shamshon, not Shimshon.

20

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

What I'd like to know is this:
If we'll throw out Torah Im Derech Eretz for the yungeleit who shouldn't have to work , then how come it's not thrown out for old geezers like me and you who have to go to work?
Or are we geezers the ultimate shmendricks who work for the yungeleit so that they can teitch upp R' Hirsch the way they want or do away with his philosophy altogether.
In other words , why isn't it good for the geezer if it's good for the geese?

21

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:48 PM Anonymous Says:

people living in whashionton hights care

22

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Mantel is a Kehilla Rov and by definition follows the shito of the kehilla. If he was unable to appreciate --or for that matter understand the philsosphy of TIDE he should not have taken the job.
Addittionaly, his collosal failure in Lucerne should have been enough of an indication to KAJ that this was not the candiatae to take on the mantel of Rav Breuer and Rav Schawab.

23

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:53 PM Anonymous Says:

who said he cant appresiate? he just said it cant be done without R' hirsch

24

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:56 PM Charlie Brown Says:

anon 2:23 I agree with you completely.

anon 2:19 That is a perfect example of a question which can only be answered by a living godol.

25

 Jun 26, 2008 at 02:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Charlie, you're off the wall. ma inyan shmita aitzel har sinai? RSRH is here no more, so we need to follow the litvishe gedolim. KAJ seems like a community of outcasts, with no trace of gedolim. Sad commentary, if all the gedolim are in Lakewood exclusively. nebech.

26

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Where was Rabbi Gelley in all of this ?

27

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Breuer And Rav Schwab knew that Rav Hirsch was not alive in their time. But they were committed to his derech. Rav Breuer And Rav Schwab wrote many articals about the derech of Rav Hirsch and claimed it is very revelant in our generation, The problem is the rabbonim of today have their own vision. as a famous poet once wrote" we would like to live the way we once did but history will not permit it" leyech bishalom

28

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:15 PM Anonymous Says:

>Where was Rabbi Gelley in all of this ?

Ill. He needs a big refuah.

29

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:17 PM Anonymous Says:

He's not well ?

30

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:32 PM flabbergasted Says:

Basically that we need living gedolim to lead us, and Rav Hirsch is unfortunately no longer here to lead us.
06-26-2008 - 2:01 PM
=============================================
This is the most insane comment i ve ever heard of.
Maybe we should not hold by moshe meeseenai because moshe rabenu is no longer alive. We should not any longer from the Rambam firstly because he was a DOCTOR ~hashem yerachem~ lo alenu, and also he is no longer alive so how can we understand his seforim??

31

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

to charley brown. it is true that Rav Hirsch is no longer alive, but Rashi and the Rambam are also no longer alive have we nothing to learn from them?

32

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:44 PM hershele Says:

I think that with all the recent stories of frum jews being arrested for shady business practices since Factory Jobs are gone in the USA only service jobs that are left, they would be better of if they would just listen to Rabbi SR Hirsch OBM to get a dergree and have "Parnasah Bederech Kavod" as they say "Beheter Velow BeISSUR"
let the rabbonim endorse Turo or other Kosher Collage programs like online degrees etc.
Hershele from Lakewood NJ

33

 Jun 26, 2008 at 03:56 PM Anonymous Says:

It appears that many here are under the impression that a core concept of TIDE is that one should work for a living. This is a misconception. TIDE is about one's attitude toward the secular/non-Jewish aspects of society and life, whether one should insulate one's self from the world at large, or be a part of the world while rising above it.

No, that one should work for a living has nothing to do with TIDE - rather, that is the basic, clear Torah view as can be found throughout Chumash, the Gemara, and Chazal.

34

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:09 PM Anonymous Says:

The Rabbanim of today are controlled by Money and Politics (and Kupat H'air!) and their self serving agendas. All we have left are the teachings and sephorim of Rav Moshe, RSRH, Rambam and other gedolim of yesteryear to rely on and guide us until the coming of moshiach. May we all be able to hold on!!

35

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:11 PM Charlie Brown Says:

This is the most insane comment i ve ever heard of.
Maybe we should not hold by moshe meeseenai because moshe rabenu is no longer alive. We should not any longer from the Rambam firstly because he was a DOCTOR ~hashem yerachem~ lo alenu, and also he is no longer alive so how can we understand his seforim??
06-26-2008 - 3:32 PM

-----------------------------

Read my other posts, sorry if I wasn't clear in my first post. I'll try to make myself more clear.

Let me turn it around and ask why we need Rabbonim today if we can just look it up in the rambam and shulchan oruch? Part of the answer is that new situations come up which are not written there. Would the Rambam allow turning on and off electric lights on shabbos? On my own I wouldn't know because electricity wasn't around in the Rambam's days. Therefore we needed people like Rav Chaim Ozer who was alive when electricity came around to pasken these things. Of course he didn't make up a psak out of thin air, but based it on the immortal words of the rambam, shulchan oruch and other rishonim and acharonim.

Look thru the Igros Moshe or any other shaalos uteshuvos sefer and you will find thousands of other questions that klal yisroel needed answered by living gedolim based on the immortal words of previous deceased gedolim.

Similarly, one can have the utmost respect for Rav Hirsch and his shitta of TIDE and want to follow it, but we still need living gedolim to apply his principles to todays times. One example was posted above by someone else - what would Rav Hirsch say about boys going to college with the immoral atmosphere so prevalent in todays colleges/universities? I don't know. And I think Rav Montal was saying that since we no longer have gedolim such as Rav Hirsch, Rav Breuer or Rav Schwab to answer questions such as these, we need to abandon ship. Again, to be clear, not because deceased gedolim don't count, but because we need living gedolim to guide our way based on the mesorah of our previous generations of gedolim.

36

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:12 PM Homey Says:

Hershele is so correct.

TIDE is more relevant today with all the scandals being perpetrated by frum Yidden left and right. The problem is that KAJ is the only kehilla that ADVOCATES people to learn and make a living at the same time. Other yeshivas have the Mashgichim and Rosh Yeshivas giving shmoozen how important it is to sit and learn all day for the rest of your life and belittle ba'ale batim. So bochrim are so turned off from even contemplating about making a living while they're in Yeshiva.
(Then the same Rosh Yeshivas and Mashgichim go to wealthy ba'alei batim and change their tune, kiss up to them, and marry their children off to these families).

37

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:14 PM Anonymous Says:

No, that one should work for a living has nothing to do with TIDE - rather, that is the basic, clear Torah view as can be found throughout Chumash, the Gemara, and Chazal....

So how come the eshivishe shita today is not to follow this view?

38

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:22 PM Anonymous Says:

"I don't know. And I think Rav Montal was saying that since we no longer have gedolim such as Rav Hirsch, Rav Breuer or Rav Schwab to answer questions such as these, we need to abandon ship. Again, to be clear, not because deceased gedolim don't count, but because we need living gedolim to guide our way based on the mesorah of our previous generations of gedolim."
So FINE! KAJ needs to oust Rav Mantel and get a living, breathing Rav who will support their Shittos instead of sabotaging them. Throw out the baby NOT the bathwater!!!!

39

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:34 PM A TIDE Yid Says:

The statement that we need living gedolim to apply the principles of deceased ones is ever so correct. But that means that R' Mantel is saying either a) he (and Rav Gelley) are not gedolim or b) they do not believe in the TIDE philosophy. Certainly Rav Gelley has never said b). If R' Mantel feels that way then he should not have taken the job. If it is a), then he should have made that clear.

Indeed TIDE is not a mandate to go to college or to go to work. Rather, it is a philosophy which says that the Torah was given to people of this world and therefore it applies to this world. The belief is that it is wrong and unnecessary to extricate ones' self from the world in order to learn Torah (as the Litvishe philosophy advocates). Learning Torah is part of TIDE (indeed, it is the first word and foremost in the philosophy, unlike some spinoffs believe). A full day of learning is not excluded, but other worldly knowledge is also important (though you don't have to go to a university to get knowledge if you know how to read).

ChV"Sh for me to say which way is right, but I want to make one observation. Those who only learn Torah on the inside of 4 walls are always unable to sustain their level of Frumkeit when/if forced to step outside. To the TIDE Yid, there is no outside. His Frumkeit is the same everywhere he goes.

To the ridiculous poster who said that "all the Gedolim are in Lakewood": It's simply not true. Let me point out that many of those who you respect in Lakewood as Gedolim actually come from WH, KAJ, and went to Breuers straight through school, some of them including Beis Medrash and Kollel. Don't believe all the anti-yekke things you hear. I don't know why it is but for some reason the Litvishe world sees fit to treat yekkes the same way Goyim treat Litvishe (and all) Yidden. But then, they don't know from psychology, do they?

40

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:38 PM Anonymous Says:

And I think Rav Montal was saying that since we no longer have gedolim such as Rav Hirsch, Rav Breuer or Rav Schwab to answer questions such as these, we need to abandon ship. Again, to be clear, not because deceased gedolim don't count, but because we need living gedolim to guide our way based on the mesorah of our previous generations of gedolim." ......

We HAVE living gedolim. LO ALMAN YISROEL.. We CAN ask and discuss halachos with them. So if the Chazal and all the Rishonim and Achronim are no longer alive we say ..eh..! Since they're no longer alive we can't pasken and let's leave it tha that? Since the Bays Yosef and the Chofetz Chaim are no longer with us we don't ask Rabbonim to pasken and guide? Certainly we don't say "Well we have nobody today to speak for them". This is nonsense. .Torah is for the living. It's the Rabbonim that are ALIVE who pasken L'mahseh on everything , each Rav according to his expertise.( Of course based on previous mesorah and halacha) Otherwise we'd never know what to do.AND there are gedolim who see nothing wrong with TIDE.

41

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:39 PM Charlie Brown Says:

So FINE! KAJ needs to oust Rav Mantel and get a living, breathing Rav who will support their Shittos instead of sabotaging them. Throw out the baby NOT the bathwater!!!!

06-26-2008 - 4:22 PM



Hey, I am not a washington heightser and I wasn't there when he spoke, i was just commenting on how I understood his words based on the reporting above. Its possible I misunderstood or that the reporting was innacurate. Sorry if I offended anyone.

42

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:41 PM A TIDE Yid Says:

Just one more thing:

It's hard to go against the chip leader. The Litvishe mehalech is predominent in the Torah world. There are tremendous zechusim backing this way of life that have translated into world domination. It's not hard to imagine what they are either.

But KAJ has plenty of its own zechusim. Vehoraya, they are still around. It's not for the pitsy little yeshiva guys to run around saying that KAJ is no good or that R' Hirsch is no good. They don't even know what they're talking about.

The good bochurim from WH who want to learn in good yeshivos have to go to Litvishe ones (which are the best nowadays) just like Chassidishe bochurim have to. Personally I think that it's a mistake that they abandon their heritage once they become successful but each one must have a reason for doing so.

43

 Jun 26, 2008 at 04:46 PM Anonymous Says:

...since we no longer have gedolim such as ..

I'm sorry. I agree with the poster above . The Rabbonim who are living presently are out gedolim and and that's the way it should be.
We learn this from the Kohen. Everybody is familiar with the posuk and the drash about someone not willing to give trumah to his Kohen saying that the Kohen in the previous generation was a bigger tzaddik. No , Bayomim Ho'haym ,it says. You give to the kohen in YOUR generation. He's the best you've got.AND he may be even a bigger tzaddik. You can't judge.

44

 Jun 26, 2008 at 05:15 PM Avraham Says:

Whoever commented about KAJ being a community of outcasts and bereft of true gedolei hador, let me say that you're a sick and need some help. Before your wicked fingers dare to spread lies about a kehillah with a tradition that it entails, think of Rav Breuer and Rav Schwab, then go to and place your hands on a burner to have a bit of kaporah in this world. I'm not a yekke (even if my last name is German-Jewish) but have been exposed to the kehillah for many years, and you're plain wrong and malicious.

45

 Jun 26, 2008 at 05:16 PM Anonymous Says:

yes, the Spinka Rav is the best we have!

46

 Jun 26, 2008 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:

WHAT If (ADLIB)

Khal Adath Jeshurun’s Rav Yisroel Mantel declared that the philosophical credo of THE CHAFETZ CHAIM, ON LASHON HARA, is not viable in the absence of its chief advocate.

47

 Jun 26, 2008 at 06:28 PM Anonymous Says:

i feel the pain of the yekes its sad to see a whole movement collapse washignton heights is shrinking in monsey they have a few pepole ------finkel the realty is most kids of the old yekes r either in lakewood or yeshivshe guys

48

 Jun 26, 2008 at 06:33 PM Anonymous Says:

All the above arguments regarding Rav Hirsch philosophy have no real meaning.

The question is not "TIDE" or career and professions vs Kollel.
The challenges and threats of our generation, the dangers facing out youth today are NOT nor in any way similair to the challenges faced by Jewish Youth in Rav Hirsch's time.
In Rav Hirsch generation youth were leaving Yeshivahs, Talmud study and then dropping religion. This was the challenge Rav Hirsch confronted, and for this he created Torah im Derech Eretz to stem the tide and bring the youth back to religion. And, sure he was succesful.
These are not the challenges faced by the youth of today and as a result if the sickness and disease changed the cure must change. One can not and may not apply a proven cure for a specific disease to another disease. The same is with those that wish to apply Rav Hirsch and his teachings in Germany, or the teachings of Harav Breuer and Harav Schwab to todays specific challenges.

Also, let us not forget. Thousands of lost jewish youth have returned to Torah true Judaism through the yeshiva system. Ask Ohr Somayach, Aish Hatorah, and the many, many Yeshivahs geared to the Baal Tshuvah community both in Israel and America. Witness the miracles of Torah Study in the Swiss [IRG Zurich] funded Yeshivah in Moscow. Yes Torah study is a proven philosophy for todays generation.
Yes, we all know that some families and some communities turn out professionals who are torah true Jews and fighters for Torah true Judaism, nevertheless pure Torah is definitly a proven cure for some of this generations ills.

49

 Jun 26, 2008 at 06:44 PM Moishe Mulva Says:

As time goes, the meaning of a gadol gets diluted and meaningless. When a gadol(s) become so predictable, by ossering everything they see, generating bans, and machmir on every topic.....it's time to let go...I could also say no to everything...These gedolim aren't good enough(or afraid) to paskin shaylos with a balance. Not everything should be assur or banned. These poskim are hopelessly out of touch about the real world and are afraid of their own shadows. All the 'askanim' should be hoisted on their own petards. Have a good shabbos!!!

50

 Jun 26, 2008 at 06:52 PM Pesach Says:

To all those who don't believe in TIDE and who believe in only spending one's time in learning, please do not contact me for money. I work for a living. You disapprove of how I live my life so please don't ask me for any of the fruits of my "sinful" labor.

51

 Jun 26, 2008 at 06:53 PM Anonymous Says:

I once heard in the name of RSRH that 'when Rabbis became doctors (i.e. PhD) Klal Yisroel became sick!'. If you ask what about him? Maybe he was a wise man and realised the dangers involved. Like the Gemora says 'harbeh osu...v'lo olu b'yodom'

52

 Jun 26, 2008 at 06:59 PM Frum ben-Torah Neighbor Says:

It is a shame that the newer,younger generation,with it's American culture seeping in to its Torah philosophy,has not learned to appreciate and respect those giants in Torah and hashkofo who prepared the present derech for them by guiding their grandparents'grandparents.I watched how how my grandfather davened,learned,walked to and from shul,ate his meals,gave advice,treated his family,helped the yeshiva,etc and I look around today at people from other backgrounds and our own.I see so much dignity lacking in todays' b'nei Torah.It's not that they don't learn a lot;they do,but with no class. I look in the kitzur shulchan Oruch and am amazed at how much he and his chaveirim followed it,davened with kavono,said all the piyutim,were ma'avir sedrah every day,and were very careful with how they spoke to and about people.They also learned to read English and go to work.Then they supported Torah by contributing all they could to rebuild Torah life in a wasteland for us to have a ready-made Torah world. Rav Hirsch was THE influence behind all this,with the leadership of Rav Breuer,Rav Schwab,And many other WH gedolim,A"H.T.I.D.E. nevcer meant go towork,instead of learning.It meant that in modern times,when secular knowlede is available to Frum Jews,there is no need or right for anyone to suggest to give up Torah life,rather,learn the good things that are needed,and learn better how to live 100% Torah-true life in the modern world surrounded by non-Jews,some hostile and many who are friendly to us.We can make a great Kiddush Hashem today when we show how real-Jews are also real-'down-to-earth-civilized people.

53

 Jun 26, 2008 at 07:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Thousands of lost jewish youth have returned to Torah true Judaism through the yeshiva system. .... nevertheless pure Torah is definitly a proven cure for some of this generations ills...

You're quite right. But what do you by PURE Torah? All of us nebiches/shmendricks that work for a living , try to be mekadesh Shem Shomayim at our workplaces , try to overcome nisyonos , learn a little ---some more ,some less----learn on Shabbos , get up very early in the winter to catch a minyan whn everybody else is snoring, give some tzedakah... are you saying we're not adhering to PURE Torah?
The nisyonos of today , although not exactly similar to R' Hirsch's time are still very tough and tempting. Therefore his philosophy still applies. I would posit that today , although kids aren't leaving the yeshivos or subject to the Reform movements like in his time,other temtations exist. For example today you can be outwardly very frum but........let me stop. You know what I mean! I have found that those who adhere to R' Hirsch's derech are by and large not as neurotic as others. They live in this world , appreciate the good and beauty that it offers and realize that these too are from Hashem. They don't reject the beauty and good in olam hazeh just because there's a lot of filth.It makes for a more mentally balance individual. We aren't Carmelite nuns all cloisterd up. We're not meant to be that way.

54

 Jun 26, 2008 at 07:23 PM Proud KAJ-TIDE-SRH Ro edelheim Says:

His message has been misinterpreted by people ב"הoutside of the Kehillo for a long time. He never meant to make Derech Eretz the ikkar,he did ,however believe it is needed in order to understand the Torah better.In order to be Torah and G-D-fearing people,we must understand how things around us work,how we arrived at where we are today and everything that we decide how to do in life must be done with the rules of Torah without dilution.Therefore the reformers who dilute the Torah only destroy R'L Yiddishkeit,even if it is 'only'one little bit. We must make honest parnosso,and now that the goyim allow Jews to join professions it is our duty to show the world the tremendous kiddush Hashem Torah-true Jews can contribute to the whole world. והיה הקב"ה למלך על כל הארץ etc. Learning Torah lishmo is the Jewish ideal,but not everyone is suited to sit and learn all day. Hashem made 12 shevotim to work together as separate units to work together as a Kehillo towards a common goal. We need doctors and lawywers,accountants and facory workers to earn a living and support Torah and to help explain what the Torah ( b'ksav and baal peh) are teaching us. Without math,science,history,geography,computer knowledge and more,our people will fall by the wayside and leave Torah because it is too hard for many.Our people should not have to mingle with the goyish world unneccessarily and we can prevent that if we have wise people in all knowledges from our very own. Those who decide to dress chassidic,let them,but also know that every wrong you do will be scrutinized even more since you show arrogantly what you supposedly believe in if you do otherwise.HKB"H wants us to understand how the spirit of Hashem is in EVERYTHING that exists.
תורה אם דרך ארץ חי וקים

55

 Jun 26, 2008 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Some of you are underestimating the genuine ehrlichkeit of the average working shmoe who has gone to college or trade school to learn a profession. Plus , you're not really being honest because either you yourselves are out there working , OR you're a kollel guy spending time on this blog.
In any case , you went to yeshiva with secular studies , which they didn't have years ago. It was all yeshiva or all goyishe schools. So already right there and then you have TIDE.
Please... nobody is pushing for Jews to hang out in bars, etc. You need to be a part of this society and reject what's not kosher. Also there millions of Christians who also are unhappy and angry at contemporary society's filth . So what are going to do? Live like the Amish?
Even in Square and Monroes they have their askonim who deal with the outside world. Come on , gimme a break.

56

 Jun 26, 2008 at 09:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Can someone please explain the difference between TIDE and Torah U'maada. Thanks

57

 Jun 26, 2008 at 10:10 PM kiddush hashem Says:

Tide and Torah U'Maada are quite different, check web sites and you will understand the differences quickly.
TIDE is what is needed today, not more flight from life, join in and the light of Torah to the world.

58

 Jun 26, 2008 at 10:41 PM Anonymous Says:

I cant belive im reading this! this is so silly. i walked out of the speach at the same time as Rav Mantel did. He had to use the bathroom and so did I. it had nothing to do with him being upset at any of the speeches, and later in the day he even mentioned how great Rav Shamshon (ben)Raphael Hirsch was.

59

 Jun 26, 2008 at 10:55 PM Anonymous Says:

OK Anonymous 10:41 is not being honest.
I was there as well. There are two exits to the hall. ONly one leads to the bathrooms. Rav Mantel chose to use the exit that does NOT lead to the bathrooms - an exit I might add, which was further from his seat than the one that does lead to the bathrooms.

60

 Jun 26, 2008 at 10:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Mantel does not deny that he left the hall because he was upset about comments made in the introductory remarks.

61

 Jun 26, 2008 at 11:12 PM Ita Raiz Says:

To preface, I apologize if I am reiterating as I have not read through all the comments to this article-

I would like to say that I found this article both fascinating and disturbing at the same time. This controversy does not surprise me as the world has steadily been moving more and more to the right over the years. However, I hope that people continue to use their discretion when listening to speeches such as R' Mantel's. I fully respect R' Mantel's scholarship and leadership. However, I feel that making strong statements to a community as a whole (or in this case, what is applicable to the entire Jewish nation) is a charged matter. What will become of our nation if we all go the kollel route? Who will support our schools, yeshivos, etc.? Also, as I have been taught by my seminary and high school teachers as well as by shiurim in the community, the kollel idea is for the "yechidei segulah." While learning full time is a wonderful and commendable thing if done correctly, the kollel lifestyle is not appropriate or right for everyone. Many upstanding and respectable people have jobs-be they professional or "blue collar"-and live Torah-true lives, raising Torah-true families. I believe that if we let R' Hirsch's philosophy die out, we are in danger of alienating a large portion of the Jewish nation, rather than sustaining our beliefs in an ever-challenging world.

Rav Schwab's quote from the last paragraph of the article sums it up nicely: Torah im Derech Eretz “means the Torah’s conquest of life and not the Torah’s flight from life. It means the Torah’s casting a light into the darkness rather than hiding from the darkness. It means applying Torah to the earth and not divorcing it from the earth.”
G-D created this world to be used and maximized by mankind. It is our obligation to take full advantage of G-D's creations, and our abilities, to serve Him for the ultimate purpose of bringing the geulah.

62

 Jun 27, 2008 at 12:40 AM Anonymous Says:

It is quite obvious that Rabbi Mantel does
not believe in TORAH IM DERECH ERETZ because
to my limited understanding his actions prove to the contrary.
More so, he never should have taken a job that
is all about Torah Im Derech Eretz which for all
these years have kept us Yekkies shinning and
radiant and making a Kiddush Hashem. It's all about how one is to conduct oneself in business, Ben Odom Lechaveiro etc.

KAJ used to be on the map for it's Kashruth, now
there is no meat under KAJ. Can't eat meat,
can't eat Veggies, what next?

By the way, some of you guys pointed out that
Rabbi Mantel took the Hashgacha of Rabbashkin.
If I'm not mistaken the signs in Washington Heights read:
Rabbashin and Alle is OK
Does this mean today Friday, it's Kosher and
Sunday we'll be told it's not OK
Rav Schwab's A'H Passak would be yes or no,not
one morning yes and by afternoon no
I am truly saddened that this is what's going on
in a highly respected community and unfortunately it appears to be leading to the demise of the Kehilla.


63

 Jun 27, 2008 at 02:10 AM yaakov Says:

The kehillo must decide on its own what direction they want to take are they following the yeshivish path and lose their uniquness or are they going to continue in their Yekish ways and follow TIDE.

64

 Jun 27, 2008 at 06:21 AM Matzahlocal101 Says:

"Rav Schwab's quote from the last paragraph of the article sums it up nicely: Torah im Derech Eretz “means the Torah’s conquest of life and not the Torah’s flight from life. It means the Torah’s casting a light into the darkness rather than hiding from the darkness."
________________________________
That's all fine and well if you have the Torah background and Hashkafa of Rav Hirsch or Rav Schwab to apply to todays life. Lacking those foundations many people wind up with derech ERETZ im derech ERETZ, with a smidgeon of Torah and they think they are living the ideal of Rav Hirsch.

Rav Moshe writes in many places one should not go to college. He writes that there is a lack of emunah in person who thinks that Hashem does not have the ability to give him parnassah without that piece of paper hanging on the wall. In other places where he is matir a person go to college, it is on the condition there are (male- female) seperate classes and kefirah is not studied. For a person, to take these statements as blanket heterim when they clearly are not intended as such, and bidi'eved at best, puts him at risk of being infected with goyish culture, not taking advantage of the world's creation. Going to sports, theatre, circuses, and movies was ossured by the gemara, rishonim and achronim. Aside from bittul Torah, there is no heter to watch big shvartzehs play football or basketball to aid your yiras shamayim or respect for gadlus haboray. Nor to watch the half time show which is pure znus, or watch Movies which are mostly znus. All these places are called moshav laitzim, and that would probably include chol hamoed concerts and shul bingo. The concept of Torah im derech eretz has been perverted into a blanket heter to shave like a goy, dress like a goy, talk like a goy, go to entertainment like a goy, and seek employment like a goy. If Shulchan Oruch says it osser to look at women, or to walk behind a women, can we interpolate from that you can work in an office or store or school and speak with women a whole day, you just can't walk behind them? I think Rav Hirsch had a different standard in mind and that standard sadly does not exist today.

65

 Jun 27, 2008 at 08:37 AM Anonymous Says:

When R' Shimon Schwab became Rav in Ichenhausen, Germany he sent letters to 4 gedolim asking them for their opinion about T.I.D.E.

The Gerrer Rebbe refused to respond.

Reb Baruch Ber Soloveichik answered that it was a temporary solution and no longer applicable, his letter is printed at the end of the Bircas Shmuel on Kiddushin.

Harav Bloch, the Telzer Rosh Yeshiva (R' Schwab was a Telzer talmid) said that while he would never advocate a shitta that is so foreign to yiddishkeit, he couldn't speak for a community in a different country (ie Germany).

Reb Elchonon Wasserman also answered that it was a temporary solution and R' Hirsch had never intended it to become a way of life in mainstream yiddishkeit.

It seems that so many of the negative posts here are from people that are to afraid to admit they arent perfect and would grasp at straws to bash real yiddishe values just because they cannot live up to it's standards. This is true not only of this issue but of many Yiddishkeit issues that are discussed in blogs.

66

 Jun 27, 2008 at 08:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Way to go YU!!!

67

 Jun 27, 2008 at 09:05 AM yoiny ben sarah Says:

Bravo Washington Heights!
KAJ is a great community. It always had great rabbonim who spoke their mind independently. They are not cowed or intimiated by people's money or standing. This is what separates a Rabbi from a Manhig.
Mantel is brave in stating that SRHirsch's meaning for our generation can only be interpreted by current Rabbonim and Gdolim.
Where would the world be, if every einikal would have the right to re-interpret the Chasam Sofer,Sfas Emmes, Yoel Moishe, Igeres Moshe etc.

Hakohen bayomim hoheym, these are our Manhigim, Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim.
Klugman said it right, that TIDE is not only for professionals and intelligentsia. B'chol drocheuhu d'oheihu is what SRH/TIDE is all about.

68

 Jun 27, 2008 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:

A "sit-down kiddush at Dr. Raphael Moller Hall"?! Outrageous! What will be next? Herring and Bomfen?

69

 Jun 27, 2008 at 09:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Herring and Bromfen?

70

 Jun 27, 2008 at 09:28 AM Anonymous Says:

You know what makes me saddest? Comments like Anonymous 9:22...
Sarcasm and silliness at such a sensitive time in KAJ history is NOT AT ALL helpful.
How many comments have been posted in this forum? Now how many are constructive? Helpful? Insightful?
This is my community. It saddens me that it is your "entertainment".....
All we want is to be true to the ideals of our founder. Please try to keep formulate your comments in such a way that you don't appear to be enjoying our difficulties.....

71

 Jun 27, 2008 at 09:56 AM A TIDE Yid Says:

The comments on this forum are a clear indication of why a leader who espouses TIDE is so necessary.

Those Litvaks who "go to work" are not practising Torah im Derech Eretz by going to work. Similarly, a yekke can sit and learn without abandoning Torah im Derech Eretz. It's sad that all these "working people" think that they are under the "shtemple" of TIDE and pretend that they are following the philosophy.

TIDE is an all encompassing philosophy. Hirsch himself writes that he did not invent it. It has been applicable from the times of Mattan Torah and will be applicable until the end of time. The philosophy dictates that we must change as our environment changes so it is never irrelevant.

The gross misinterpretation is the basis for people's lack of respect for the ideal. To hear people on this blog "explain" TIDE makes it sound silly. But it is the posters who are ignorant and not the philosophy.

If you want to work under the banner of TIDE, you have to live TIDE. If you want to learn all day, you should still live TIDE. The litvishe ignorance of the world around them (which is their goal) has unfortunately also included ignorance of other sects of Judaism (which would not matter except that they choose to speak about them in ignorance).

72

 Jun 27, 2008 at 10:06 AM anonymous Says:

Anonymous Says:
Can someone please explain the difference between TIDE and Torah U'maada. Thanks
06-26-2008 - 9:56 PM

(Based on a tape I heard form Rav Gifter ZT"L)

The difference is evident in the grammar of the phrases. "A and B", as in Torah UMadda means they are both equal. "A with B" as in TIDE, means that A is more important.

Thus TIDE, while acknowledging the validity and necessity of "derech eretz", still affirms that Torah is the Ikkar.

Torah UMadda , on the other hand, assigns equal importance to the two, thus lowering the Chashivus of Torah to just another college course or university division.

73

 Jun 27, 2008 at 10:24 AM Ahavas Yisrael anyone? Says:

Tide Yid has it exactly right when he states:

"The litvishe ignorance of the world around them (which is their goal) has unfortunately also included ignorance of other sects of Judaism (which would not matter except that they choose to speak about them in ignorance)."

74

 Jun 27, 2008 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Who is willing to honestly beleive that the situation in America today with rampant assimilation and intermarriage is better than it was in Germany in the time of R Hirsch? Mima nafschach, if it was a l'chatchila then, or a horaas shaah the times have not gotten better and the need still exists. This is no different than the horaas shaah of Bais Yaakov education for girls where for those groups who feel that they can educate their daughters at home BY is a bideved innovation, but for most it is a necessity even today.

75

 Jun 27, 2008 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:

If the conjunctive vav detracts from the Torah in Torah U'Mada, what then is the difference between Torah U'Mada and Torah V'Daas?

76

 Jun 27, 2008 at 10:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Has anybody asked Rav Mantel what he meant by his statement? Since when is Elliot Resnick, Staff Reporter Jewish Press (the author of the article), the leading expert on the definition of TIDE? Furthermore, without hearing Rav Mantels side, how can the public condemn &/or criticize KAJ & its Rabbinate without knowing what actually happened? I don't know if Elliott Resnicks Mesorah is TIDE, but his lack of Kavod Hatorah is most definitely an embarrassment to his family & his teachers.

77

 Jun 27, 2008 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Elliott Resnick reported the FACTS as they occurred. He did not inject any opinion or dissertation on TIDE.
The people of KAJ are disappointed with the "deafening silence" coming from the rabbinate and eagerly look forward to the Rav's statement... sadly, one has been lacking all week.

78

 Jun 27, 2008 at 11:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Hirsch writes that TIDE is the Torah true ideal and always has been.

Rav Breuer writes that anyone who thinks TIDE is a horaas shaah knows nothing about Rav Hirsch's writings.

Rav Schwab once said that when he was younger he used to think that TIDE is a horaas shaah but then when he got older he read through Rav Hirsch's writings and said that he had been completely wrong -- that Rav Hirsch defenitely did not see TIDE as a horaas shaah, that Rav Hirsch thought TIDE was the Torah true ideal.

79

 Jun 27, 2008 at 11:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Breuer - an undeniable godol - clearly stated as well that TIDE is not Horo'as Sho'oh. I keep trying to post a link to the article in his own words, but the moderators seem to have a problem with it... Do your own searches... it's entitled The Relevancy of the Torah Im Derech Eretz Ideal

80

 Jun 27, 2008 at 11:47 AM anonyomous from washionton hights Says:

y is this such a public thing it happened in washionton hights, and the lashan hara here im SURE is not what r' hirsch had in mind. its useless arguments about whats been happening here for years and nothing is going to happen on this web blog. we have to wait for shabbos, maybe r' mantel will discuss it.

81

 Jun 27, 2008 at 12:47 PM anonymous Says:

Anonymous Says:
If the conjunctive vav detracts from the Torah in Torah U'Mada, what then is the difference between Torah U'Mada and Torah V'Daas?
06-27-2008 - 10:30 AM

The daas in "Torah Vodaas" refers to Hashkafa and Mussar, not to secular studies.

82

 Jun 27, 2008 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:

No, that's not what Torah Vodaas originally meant when the yeshiva first started.

83

 Jun 27, 2008 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:

wake up and smell the coffea

84

 Jun 27, 2008 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:

In reality the success of Chinuch in United States is the active realization of TIDE. As I heard from R' Yaakov Kamenetzky ztz"l, who responded to an inquiry as to how R'SRH should be titled ,and R'Yaakov said the R'SRH should be called
Rosh B'nei Hagolah, for even though in his life time his influence was limited primarily to Germany , "Adank R'SRH there is Yisddishkeit today " Rav Hirsh writes in his collected writings " that should there be the Golden opportunity in Torah learning , then make sure there are no compromises to learning. He compares this to the Menora which represents Torah learnig ,that is to say if the Menorah is made from tin etc. then it can be made from parts that are assenmbled ,however if it is made from gold (hence the Golden oportunity )then it must be "miksha" one complete piece
R' Mordechai Schwab ZTZ"L often referenced the Nineteen Letters where Rav Hirsch writes when the hand that writes these letters is in the grave after 4 generations,only then will I be understood . Yehe Zichro Boruch , Which according to R'SRH means it should continue to be dissseminated. Yiras Hashem Tehorah Omedes Load. So that in Yiddishkeit ,Yiras Shomsayim never finishes but we are witnessing an embrace of greater opportunities our forefathers did not have

85

 Jun 27, 2008 at 04:55 PM bigwheeel Says:

The debate of how to interpret [and implement] TIDE is like the debate of the Second Amendment to the Constitution! Each person and group has their own interpretation of the meaning of those general statements and ideas uttered so long ago, and how to apply them in today's world. But just like in the Constitutional debate --where we must understand the conditions of life in that era-- before [attempting to] put any meaning to those amendments, so we have to understand the conditions of life (from a Religious and National perspective) in Germany 150 years ago! From the information and the [Historical] actions of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch ZTZ"L, it is evident (to this commenter) that the Rabbi's meaning of TIDE was; that Torah is NOT an impediment to Science or getting a Secular Education in order to work in the Professions! Not that Torah needs to be complemented (a/o complimented) by Science!

86

 Jun 27, 2008 at 05:08 PM Anonymous Says:

-- bigwheel

Rav Hirsch does not agree with you. Read his writings. Read his "Religion Allied With Progress."

87

 Jun 27, 2008 at 06:41 PM Anonymous Says:

One thing is clear from all of Rav Horsch's writings.....

One should constantly strive for "Alyiah" for betterment in his religous status, in whatever he does, be it Torah learning or be it the workplace, keep growing in your Ahavas Hashem and Yiras hashem. keep growing in your appreciation of everything Hashem does for you, be grateful for the opportunities Hashem gives you, be thankful for this beautiful world Hashem created for us, Yes, this is his message of "B'Chol Drochechu Do-ayhu".
Nowhere and never was Rav Hirsch content with a status-quo in Yiddishkeit, and never was he satisfied with a compromising Yiddishkeit.
Be you a Doctor, be you a Lawyer, a teacher or any other professional keep growing in the sevice of Hashem. Be an honest businessman and you are serving Hashem. True, but this was not enough for him. One must continue to grow in his Torah knowledge and all aspects of serving Hashem.
Gut Shabbos

88

 Jun 29, 2008 at 02:44 AM Anonymous Says:

I would like someone to please explain:

Why a "MALE" is not allowed to work or go to
college but the wife "FEMALE" is allowed to go to
college to get a degree, to bring home a nice salary, so that her husband "MALE"
can sit and learn?

Which seems to be the IR HOKODOSH (LAKEWOOD) Shita.

What about Tzinus?
Weren't our Imahos (Sarah, Rivka, Rochel & Leah)
at home not out in the work place?


Furthermore, why is it that COPE, Lakewood, has these special programs for MEN to enhance their
career, if they are supposed to be learning? While for women there is nothing. Yet they are the the ones that are supposed to support their husbands, so they can sit and LEARN. Meaning that WOMEN have to go out to a secular environment to earn their degree.

I guess TIDE is OK for the women!

SOMETHING IS WRONG SOME PLACE!!!!!

signed: CONFUSED

89

 Jun 29, 2008 at 03:13 AM Anonymous Says:


AS WE ALL KNOW, IF YOU ASK TEN RABONIM THE SAME QUESTION, YOU'LL GET TEN DIFFERENT ANSWERS.

RABBI MANTEL HAS A RIGHT TO EXPRESS HIS BELIEFS AND THOUGHTS, HOWEVER, TO COME TO WASHINGTON HEIGHTS TO REFUTE "TORAH IM DERECH ERETZ" ? WHY TAKE SUCH A JOB, WHERE THE FOUNDATION OF THE KEHILLA HAS BEEN BUILT ON "TIDE".

90

 Jun 29, 2008 at 03:19 PM Anonymous Says:

rav mantel was very much misunderstood dont believe everything you read. it was hard to understand with all the noise and confustion during the speech but what he said was that the meaning of TIDE is not for laywers to decide but rather ask the rabonon of our times how we CAN use TIDE

91

 Jun 29, 2008 at 04:38 PM ClooJew Says:

While the incident is another setback for the already fragile and fraying Washington Heights/KAJ community, Rav Mantel said nothing that any Torah authority would argue with: We must be directed by the leaders of our time. "Dor dor vedorshov."

The German-Jewish absorption into the melting pot of Orthodox Jewish America appears now to be nearing completion. Much of the Washington Heights community blended into Monsey (which has its own KAJ) and other communities. For the most part, all the yekkes I grew up with are, today, indistinguishable from all the other yeshiva guys I went to school with.

Yekkes are barely any longer a distinct "community," not because they haven't tried, but because the culture of the United States, in all its democratic glory and fiscally upward mobility, does not lend itself to those sorts of enclaves.

What the Yekkeshe community can take pride in - and this is, lulei demistafina, the ultimate trophy - is that Torah Im Derech Eretz is the de facto standard of American Orthodoxy.

Most of us go to work, speak unaccented English, and are friendly and honest with the "outside" world. Again, that's most of us. Even in Lakewood, the vast majority of heads of households are not sitting in Kollel (sorry , Mr. Geezer) but hold jobs that require them to deal with the outside world. Lakewood is not the ghetto that it is perceived - nor that it perceives itself - to be.

Two centuries later, Rav Hirsch has won not only the battle, but also the war.

92

 Jun 29, 2008 at 06:03 PM Anonymous Says:

yeah 601 is right lets just end this and make shalom

93

 Jun 29, 2008 at 11:15 PM English teacher Says:

He who pays the piper calls the tune..... Rav Mantel is a fine talmid Chochom and a sincere person, and there is room for more than one opinion about Torah Im derech eretz even in the narrow confines of Bennett Avenue. But, sicne the postville paychecks have come to an end it is hard to scrape up the funds for two full time rabbis in a small community. So they had to find a way to have a feud and send the poor man running back to Europe. Follow the $$$!

94

 Jun 30, 2008 at 05:03 PM Anonymous Says:

As the comments seem to have B"H come to an end, I leave off with one sad but inescapable truth.

Throughout KAJ/Breuers illustrious history here in America it has for at least 50 (!) years, had a complete 'cradle to kollel' education system.
During that time it has graduated so many successful lawyers,doctors,research scientists,optometrists,and even prominent businessmen. Many who have gone on to be quite famous and lauded.
Yet where in ALL that time has ONE even ONE complete (!) graduate become a treasured member of our Torah leadership. A Mora D'Asra? A Posek? A Dayan?. I submit to you my fellow jews , that there is not one!
Why you ask ?
I'm really not sure, but perhaps it has something to do with TIDE or more precisely, how it has been used or mis-used here In America.
Finally, is Rav Mantel right?
Again, I don't know, but I have an odd feeling that the one person who would have agreed with him and walked out as well,
would have been Rav Hirsch himself.

95

 Jun 30, 2008 at 09:48 PM Anonymous Says:

-- Anonymous of 5:03

Read Rav Hirsch's writings and then come back to me with your "odd feelings."

96

 Jun 30, 2008 at 10:03 PM Anonymous Says:

To: Anonymous 6/30/08 5:03PM

The bottom line is that Rabbi Mantel, is
an assistant Rabbi and therefore should not be
making his own rules and regulations. That is just destroying the Kehilla! (He may just be in the wrong place at the wrong time)

As mentioned above he knew the minhagim and policies and what Breuers stands for namely,TIDE, before he took the job and if he didn't like it he should not have taken the job

If some of us would emulate some of the products
of Breuer's, I think it would be quite beneficial
to Klal Yisroel

If a Sver is supposed to be sitting and learning
who is going to support all our yungerlite?

Since, we are talking about the past .....

Wasn't the Rambam a doctor?

Would you have the audacity to say that Yaakov
Avinu should not have permitted an agreement
between Yissochar and Zevulun?



All the years that Breuer's is in Washington Heights there has "not" been any Machlokes as they have had in the passed few years True?

THAT SAYS IT ALL!

By the way 6/30/08 5:03PM do you live in Washington Heights are you at all Nogeya B'devar that you criticize so well?

Looking forward to your replay........

97

 Jul 01, 2008 at 08:59 AM Anonymous Says:

To 06-30-2008 - 10:03 PM

Looking forward to your replay........

Replay?

It's my pleasure.


As the comments seem to have B"H come to an end, I leave off with one sad but inescapable truth.

Throughout KAJ/Breuers illustrious history here in America it has for at least 50 (!) years, had a complete 'cradle to kollel' education system.
During that time it has graduated so many successful lawyers,doctors,research scientists,optometrists,and even prominent businessmen. Many who have gone on to be quite famous and lauded.
Yet where in ALL that time has ONE even ONE complete (!) graduate become a treasured member of our Torah leadership. A Mora D'Asra? A Posek? A Dayan?. I submit to you my fellow jews , that there is not one!
Why you ask ?
I'm really not sure, but perhaps it has something to do with TIDE or more precisely, how it has been used or mis-used here In America.
Finally, is Rav Mantel right?
Again, I don't know, but I have an odd feeling that the one person who would have agreed with him and walked out as well,
would have been Rav Hirsch himself.

06-30-2008 - 5:03 PM




98

 Jul 01, 2008 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:

I think it's pretty simple TIDE produces fine Baal Habatim, some of whom are exemplary askonim.

What TIDE does not produce is outstanding Gedolim. It has not produced anyone in 50 years who can lead the Breuer's community. That's why the last two Rabbonim had to be brought in from the "outside", neither of whom subscribe to the theory and/or compel their children to do so.

So the people of Washington Heights can be proud of the fact that TIDE produces upstanding, honest, hard-working soldiers of Klal Yisroel. That's fine. But this army cannot fight the battle without the Generals and TIDE does not produce Generals. Lakewood (a METAPHOR) does.

99

 Jul 01, 2008 at 02:35 PM HAGTBG Says:

To answer a question raiser earlier: TIDE is what you call TUM when you agree with it. Back when R' SR. Hirsch was in Frankfurt, the three big rabbonim of Judaism were himself, R' Hildesheimer and R' Bamberger. In his days, both R' Hirsch and R' Hildesheimer were considered TIDE and though R' Hirsch opposed the rabbinical seminary R' Hildesheimer set up he considered him and then Orthodox. R' Ettlinger, their teacher, was also considered TIDE.

The shetah of R' Hildesheimer - again called TIDE in Germany - is the one that more closely resembles YU. It and TUM are basically the same thing a century and a half apart.

Austritt and not TIDE has come to be the long term legacy of R SRH in KAJ. And that is sad becaise to R' SRH it was austritt what was horaat shaah.

R' SRH set up one community Frankfurt and in doing so he assured that the community had all the things one community needs: schools, shuls, mikvot, kosher meat and wine, hospitals, etc. But he did not put in place things that would service many communities: a rabbinical seminary; indeed any formal upper level education or learning. That was the major flaw and why KAJ, now barely able to hold together, is and was not able to produce its own rabbinical leaders.

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 Jul 01, 2008 at 02:36 PM HAGTBG Says:

big rabbonim of Judaism. Last word should have been Germany.

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 Jul 01, 2008 at 06:40 PM Tide Talmid Says:

TO Anonymous of 5:03
What are you talking about not 1 posek rav or dayan.
Graduates of Washington Heights educational institutions include
Rav Moshe Heineman (Baltimore)
Rav Osher Dovid May (Monsey)
Rav Binyomin Wurzburger(Australia)
Rav Dovid Zucker (Chicago)
Rav Moshe Schnerb(South Africa)
Rav Meir Levi (Monsey)
Rav Yosef Stern (Brooklyn)
and many more

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 Jul 04, 2008 at 01:13 AM Joseph Says:

I believe the rigidness of many Yekkishe customs and people helped doom it.

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 Dec 15, 2009 at 11:57 AM Silenced Says Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

Mantel is a Kehilla Rov and by definition follows the shito of the kehilla. If he was unable to appreciate --or for that matter understand the philsosphy of TIDE he should not have taken the job.
Addittionaly, his collosal failure in Lucerne should have been enough of an indication to KAJ that this was not the candiatae to take on the mantel of Rav Breuer and Rav Schawab.

It is a purely talmudic argument to discuss Mantel's philosophy. He was appointed KAJ rav solely because he is the nephew-in-law of Johnny Rothschild, a KAJ power.
Then KAJ President Erich Elrbach announced at a public of the Kehilla that he was appointing Mantel simply because no one else agreed to take the job. Tide-Shmide!

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