Israel – New York Magazine last weekend featured on its cover one of the most interesting, and certainly the most controversial, recent news stories on ultra-Orthodox Jewry. “Escape From the Holy Shtetl” by Mark Jacobson.
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The reporter, who yearns for the more simple days of American secular Jewry, sympathizes with Grunwald, sees her as the victim of an oppressive cult and barely veils his support for Grunwald’s campaign to regain custody of her daughter.
Not surprisingly, the piece attracted considerable attention and provoked argument. [VIN News editorial on this issues]
But while Kiryas Joel and a few other Haredi ghettos are no more than pinpricks in the American firmament, in Israel these questions are of an entirely different magnitude. More than 20 percent of the Jewish schoolchildren in Israel last year, some 215,000 kids, studied in ultra-Orthodox schools. Their proportion is growing, the younger the age group. These schools come under varying degrees of government supervision, but the Education Ministry as a rule has little power over the curriculum taught there. The ministry’s attempts to ensure that all schools receiving some kind of government funding teach at least a core of basic subjects (mathematics, Hebrew grammar, English and science at a satisfactory level, and not only religious studies) or else lose their funding, has met with fierce Haredi opposition.
The ultra-Orthodox parties’ clout in the Knesset and government, the fact that they often have the crucial votes needed for the coalition’s survival and the annual budget vote, means that education ministers have never received sufficient political backing to see such a move through. The arrangements reached are a sham, essentially allowing the Haredi schools to carry on as they have before. And even if a government not reliant on ultra-Orthodox votes were to pass such a resolution, how would it be enforced for the tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox children who study in institutions that on principle don’t receive a shekel of government funding?
The Haredi politicians say theirs is a pure way, kept sacred through centuries of devotion, and no foreign idea should be permitted to sully it, that the secular education specializes in producing criminals and drug addicts, and that those of their graduates who decide in their twenties to embark on a career or take academic courses are capable of filling in whatever they haven’t learned in a few months. Boiled down, these arguments can be summed up basically as: Butt out. No one will tell us how to educate our children. But there is a deeper reason for this dogma. The ultra-Orthodox leaders firmly believe that the only way their community can flourish is to enforce a complete separation between their followers, especially the young generation, and corrupting outside influences. Aside from a few who have to pursue their careers in the wider society, the great majority must remain insular. The very idea that anything of value can be learned outside the confines of a narrow interpretation of Torah and mitzvot is blasphemous. An education system with a curriculum all of its own is key to this. Just one example of the complete difference between the systems is that while most Israeli kids are enjoying (and parents suffering) their summer holidays, ultra-Orthodox children of all ages are still studying and will continue doing so until Tisha B’Av, in three weeks’ time.
The Israeli political system makes it almost impossible to force change on Haredi schools, despite Israel’s being a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which includes the country’s responsibility for “the preparation of the child for responsible life in a free society.”
But what about society’s responsibility to the young men and women who have opted to leave their community and are thus forced to make their own way, without family support, in a world for which they have been given no skills to comprehend? There are thousands of Gitty Grunwalds in Israel. Aside from a handful of under-funded private organizations, no one is helping them adjust. The Haredi world will never provide them with assistance; this would only legitimize leaving the fold. They desperately need help.
VIN News Editor’s note: Fingering an entire demographic for one individual’s failing is simply a means to blame others instead of taking responsibility for one’s self. It’s very easy to sit at home grouching about how “society is not providing for me.”
This phenomenon is reminiscent of John F. Kennedy’s famous saying, “Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.” Today, there are hundreds of successful Orthodox/charedi business people—with little to no secular education, to boot—who took a stand and put together quality lives for themselves.
Yes, we agree that there are weighty issues in the charedi community, just as there are even weightier issues in the secular community, and several important changes in the former have been seen in recent years. Still, virtually every formerly-Orthodox rebel, when scrutinized thoroughly, springs from a home rife with the various ills of dysfunction: fighting or unhappy parents, poverty and unemployment, drug or alcohol abuse, and even the dark shades of sexual abuse.
These have nothing to do with the Orthodox community as a whole.
The wholesale blaming of an entire society and its rabbis is merely a flimsy cover for smearing Orthodox Judaism by Israel’s secular media outlets such as Haaretz. We wearily remind our readers that the secular world rarely loses a chance to smear the religious Jewish world as if their child-rearing values are completely wrong.
In all communities, hard-core secular to zealously religious and everything in between, responsibility for a good education rests solely upon parents’ shoulders.
Well Said!
WELL PUT! BOTTOM LINE IS THAT EVERYONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN ACTIONS. BLAMING OTHERS IS EASY.
Haaretz, YNet and JPost will never miss an opportunity to rip on the Orthodox community for all the societal problems that are far more rampant among seculars.
What’s wrong with teaching such basics as reading, writing and arithmetic? You claim that “today, there are hundreds of successful Orthodox/charedi business people—with little to no secular education, to boot—who took a stand and put together quality lives for themselves.” Why do these people have to live their entire lives handicapped as illiterates? The fact that they became successful businessmen does not hide the painful truth that they do not know the basics that every NYC public school dropout knows. I can see the harm that can be done by teaching Greek philosophy or Christianity. I can even see the harm that teaching evolution and other sciences can do. However, what can be wrong with teaching proper grammar(dikduk),proper reading, and math? Don’t tell me that there aren’t enough hours in the day to teach these basic skills. It’s the quality of the education that’s important (including Torah education), not the quantity of hours.
what does your comment have to do with the main gist of the article? You didn’t say whether you agree or disagree with the premiss of his about chareidim and secular education.
I also think you do a great diservice to the frum community by saying that young people leaving their community is usually the result of family dysfunction. This is in line with those like the author of the above article who claim that only gullible, naive and feeble minded become BT’s.Over the ages, revolutionaries, artists, writers heads of State of Israel came from prominent litvish/chassidish/sfardic families. In stead of acting liking frum people have a collective case of denial complex, address the real issues. BTW, her case is not unusal even in the states in Chabad ( to which i belong ) spouses ‘frying out’ and fighting for the custody of a child is not unheard of . This applies to BT couples as well as FFB’s. I mention Chabad because I don’t know the statistics aomng others, though I’ve heard of similar situations among litvishe russian BT’s.
Essentially, you [the editor/s of VIN] covered all the bases. To enhance your point [about the fact that virtually ALL dropouts are dealing with issues of family dysfunction in one form or another.] we can just look at this particular case.
Another point is worth observing. That [even] the reporter, MR. Jacobson was inspired? watching Three generations KE”H entering the Shul in KJ in such a stately manner! So, it’s entirely possible that his motive for doing this journalistic [piece of] hype was self-promotion. To show the the publisher [of ny mag] that he can pull in the numbers, which he surely did!
For a change, I have no critisizim to post at this time. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I understand it is harder to grow up normal if your coming from an abusive family, and your fed up with their lifestyle, but this does not make another person who grows up in the same society, in a healthy family wrong.
Just for my knowledge, does any one know if there is any law or what not in the u.s. that states that a person is not alowed to raise his children according to his beliefs? if no, why are these reporters smearing a group of pepole for their rights they have by the law of our U.S. constitution?
If Gitty Grunwald is a dope-smoking failure, how is that the fault of the Orthodox community? So she left the Satmar lifestyle, so what, she could make something of herself like that young woman (Baila Glauber) who became a police officer, instead of sitting around and whining.
As a positive note on all this:
In the secular world when kids from respected parents go off from their “Derech – Values” and become drug addicts etc. it IS NO NEWS!
As long as a Chasidishe Rebel makes “Headlines”, we in the Frum community are not that bad off…
Face it the Israeli secular Zionist movement is bankrupt they can whine all they want.
Yes, we agree that there are weighty issues in the charedi community, just as there are even weightier issues in the secular community, and several important changes in the former have been seen in recent years. Still, virtually every formerly-Orthodox rebel, when scrutinized thoroughly, springs from a home rife with the various ills of dysfunction: fighting or unhappy parents, poverty and unemployment, drug or alcohol abuse, and even the dark shades of sexual abuse.
These have nothing to do with the Orthodox community as a whole.
————————————————-
But if those abuses took place in the Chareidi community, which you admit does, sadly, take place, the community owes the victims something for failing to protect them from the abuses they suffered. That moral debt transcends religious observance.
“There are thousands of Gitty Grunwalds in Israel. Aside from a handful of under-funded private organizations, no one is helping them adjust.”
This is so true. It is not “ripping” (07-18-2008 – 11:35 AM) the Orthodox.
It is stating the obvious no matter if the Charedi population wants to hear it or not or is in denial. Why is it that the Secular Israeli or Modern Orhodox population can get good jobs when they graduate or finish the army while the Charedi sit and learn,take and not give back and only very few join the army to protect our homeland because “learning is their out of all their responsibilities” of giving back to Israel.
Why is it that there was 100 + commenters on Gitty and everyone and their rabbi’s oppinions of tznius on her story and only 35 (give or take)comments on the soldiers Regev and Goldwasser that were murdered?
Where are our thoughts today?
I’m really offended by this notion that certain people seem to have that if you fry out and stop being frum that means all you do all day is sit and do drugs and go to clubs till 4 am.
Some people go to school, get jobs, buy a home, and contribute to society. Maybe they won’t be frum anymore, but that doesn’t mean they always end up some drugged up homeless person.
As if there aren’t tons of FRUM people doing exactly what people think every fry person does all day. Hashem Yiracheim
“Poor, miserable” Gitty Grunwald got the attention she craves, maybe now she thinks she will go on TV and become a movie star.
Babishka- Why do you hate her so? So what-She is messed up that’s what rehab is for- to help her. Why judge her like that? There are many Frum and Chasidic druggies and alcoholics out there but they are not judged because they can ‘talk the talk and dress the part of a frummie.
Chaim Rubin -Very well said!!
Of cours every one that rebels has a family problem. Becouse he/she got kicked out of the family, and no one wants to help them if they want to leave the community. Its one big currupt system.
Babishka Says:
Well said she was trying to get attention, so she could start some public live style
I agree with Chaim Rubin.
To “Face it the Israeli secular Zionist movement is bankrupt they can whine all they want.
07-18-2008 – 12:11 PM”
What is wrong with you???
LONG LIVE ZIONISM (secular and non secular zionism is still a belief in the same notion of Israel which ever way it is shown)
balabusta says: “Babishka- Why do you hate her so? So what-She is messed up that’s what rehab is for- to help her. Why judge her like that?”
I am not doing the judging here, Gitty, Marc Jacobson, and YOU are being self-righteous and judgmental.
She is a messed-up druggie, how is that the fault of the frum community? She left the community years ago and had plenty of time to get an education and make herself a life, like the Ramapo police officer.
There are far more messed-up drug addicts and unfit parents in the goyish world (Britney Spears and Amy Winehouse come to mind), are their problems also the fault of the frum community?
The fact that this Greenwald artical made such a statement in the secular world, we are in good shape. Such stories happen all the time by the secular world, but they expect more of us. If one such story happens they get so excited because they know that their way of living is not moral and they feel guilty.
Anon
Shea:26
“Why is it that there was 100 + commenters on Gitty and everyone and their rabbi’s oppinions of tznius on her story and only 35 (give or take)comments on the soldiers Regev and Goldwasser that were murdered?”
The reason is that many other news outlets and blogs carried the story of the Israeli soldiers HY”D and there were hundreds thousands of comments all over the Internet.
The story of Gitty and her jihad against KJ was only discussed on VIN.
The problems that we see in the Orthodox community- modern to chassidish- are worse than in the secular community. Why you ask? Because we hold ourselves up to a much higher standard. One has to be nieve to think that the problems are fewer and farther between with us. How stupid one has to be to believe that if one owns a DVD player that it is used for pornography. Don’t be misled (yes, misled) by many of these rabbonim who don’t know the first thing about what goes on in the world.
While it is hard to disagree with anything that has been written in this article I have to say that every child that leaves the community and becomes a non productive member of society (a bum) is a failure on our part.
We have established a system that is able to take care of those who wish to comply but we have failed to establish a safety net for those who can’t or won’t.
Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lazeh.
We are responsible for each and every yiddishe nishomoh and we are responsible to provide a path for our children to remain Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos even without black hats, streimlech and lange reklech.
I think this article simply points out that Gitty does not have a love of Hashem or Torah.
Who’s failure is this?
How many more Gittys will it take until we do something as Kehila for these poor Neshomos?
The poor education wasn’t the point that made her leave Monroe.The israeli’s missed the point. They’re just trying to get the Ultra Orthodox Community.
Chaim Rubin said:
Some people go to school, get jobs, buy a home, and contribute to society. Maybe they won’t be frum anymore, but that doesn’t mean they always end up some drugged up homeless person.
Chaim, unfortunately this is not the majority. In most cases when someone leaves the Charedi fold they do become a bum and druggy.
When someone leaves the MO lifestyle they more than likely end up and decent human just not frum.
The bottom line that the school system has to change. Not only in Monroe, but in Williamsburg and BP too. They’re stressing more on the no’s then intilling a love and warmth in Yidishkeit. If a child has a love for Yidishkeit, then they’re always willing to grow and don’t rebell on all the no’s.
If extreme Machmurim are stressed as Halacha then the kids feel deprived. If a white jacket is not allowed the same as going to movies, then when a kid rebells, they don’t know the difference. The solution is that our schools need to teach our children the basic halachos, and then instill a love for Torah. Then the Machmurim come willingly.
“…And even if a government not reliant on ultra-Orthodox votes were to pass such a resolution, how would it be enforced for the tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox children who study in institutions that on principle don’t receive a shekel of government funding?…”
THAT’S WHY THE FARSIGHTED SATMAR REBBE, ZT”L, FOUNDED KEREN HATZOLO–TO MAINTAIN THE INDEPENDENCE OF ALL HAREIDI SCHOOLS IN ERETZ YISROEL!
Anonymous said “If a white jacket is not allowed the same as going to movies, then when a kid rebells, they don’t know the difference.”
This is the BEST comment I’ve seen yet.
Anon 1:03 great point! We as a klal should do something for these types of cases.
07-18-2008 – 12:26 PM
Cause everyone agrees that the Israeli govt is sick, there’s no need to comment
VIN Editor,
have you decided yet what the reason for Gitty pepole like her are jumping the ship of faith?
in your last edotorial on the NY MAG report you present that the single reason for that is “vaad hatznius”.. what changed now, VIN??? you present a totaly diffrent reason “the environment they grow up, and that it is their own problem”..
NEVERTHELESS, I SALUTE this reply, and this reply should be applied to the VIN editorial on the NY MAG itself.. taking the bashing of Vaad Hatznius out from there as a reason for Gitty and others like her behavior!!
you can certainly bash the vaad, (as i stated in my original comment on the NY MAG/VIN Editorial)but in this contreversy, Vaad issues and non issues, HAS NO PLACE!
07-18-2008 – 12:26 PM There is a need to comment because you did not illaborate why you think they are as you say sick..
And the Charedi rabbi’s are not as you say sick?
They allow people to shun the army in favor of taking all services because thats how they interpret Hashem will provide if sit and shukel and learn. Nachal Charedi has it right.They are to be admired not the rabbi’s that ban everything they disagree with.
Firstly, all frum societies in Israel and US have serious various addiction problems which to date have been swept under (sha! m’turnish redin hoych!)
the carpet. People do not realize that this is a disease and we must be m’karev and get these people help not shun them. What happened to “Hamikayaim nefesh achas (saving just one life)??
Secondly, the Rosh Hayeshiva today even in US (who are the murderers of todays children!)
are sacrificing and murdering our haylige kiderlach for their own selfish ends. Even the Litvishe best yeshivas have neglected basic math,
science and english as well as history.All my grandkids (who b’h are bright) are three years behind in their aptitudes in the best yeshivas and all get tutoring. Yeshivas are run by control freaks running our kids. In India and China average math studies are taken by 87% of children in elementary and High schools. In secular US it is 13.5%. And in Us and Israel in Yeshivas, less than (believe it !!!) 1% take math English, math or basic science. These are the geniuses who are trusted with chinuch and
leading our childrens future.. and the parents who
have emunah in these so-called principals are complacent in the future for their children. Our children do not have the real estate mkt or stk mkt to look ahead to in the next 20 years to make money. But when they want to raise money they come to the college graduates. In fact, the tuition modeling in many yeshivas is based on the percentage of children from the professional parents paying for the non-working parents. Any rosh yeshiva who does not equate the seriousness
of preparing with equal equivalency a child’s
secular basic english math and science needs should get the Oynish deserving for abusing the future of these children being ill prepared for their future.
Here is a question that nobody has asked so far in all the comments:
How did Gitty Grunwald, who is so poor and alone and forsaken in the world, come to the attention of a reporter for New York Magazine? Obviously you would not expect them to move in the same social circle, but somehow this “shidduch” was arranged.
We see that the young lady who became a police officer, and is still shomeres shabbos, and a kiddush Hashem and success story, was only mentioned in a small community newsletter, but Gitty hit the big time. The question is how?
All said and done, this girl needs help. and it’s our responsibility to try and get her back, but not from where she came from. If she wanted out of this cult her husband should have picked up his family and move out of there.
SHE SHOUOLD HAVE LEFT BEFORE SHE DRAGGED HER POOR EX HUSBAND AND DAUGHTER INTO THIS MESS.
SHE SAID SHE ALWAYS HAD QUESTIONS…SO WHY GET MARRIED AND PUT YOELI THROUGH DIVORCE? AND PULL ESTER MALKA APART…
MANY POEPLE GO THROUGH REBELLIOUS PHASES YET THEY TAKE RESBONSIBILITY INSTEAD OF BLAMING EVERYONE.
IF YOU DON’T LIKE CHOCOLATE- DON’T EAT IT! IF SOMEONE DOESN’T LIKE CHASSIDISM THEN LEAVE…WHY SAY IT’S THEIR FAULT? IT’S JUST NOT YOUR STYLE.
BOTTOM LINE -WE SHOULD ALL DAVEN FOR SHTERNA GITTEL BAS DEVORAH AND ESTHER MALKA BAS SHTERNA GITTEL- HASHEM SHOULD OPEN THEIR EYES TO THE BEAUTY OF TORAH!
To Ryan 07-18-2008, – 3:13 PM
You have a yiddishe kop and use it well!Kol hakavod to you. A good education never hurt anyone! The Lubavitcher Rebbe and Rambam were well educated and also well versed in Torah.
To Babishka 07-18-2008 – 3:17 PM
She probably did it to make money. Unfortunately controversy sells.I guess that’s how you know about Spears and Winehouse in the tabloids that lately are assur for frum yidden to see in supermarkets. As per your 07-18-2008 – 12:58 PM comment.
I also believe that many criticized and cursed Glauber a few weeks for doing a wonderful thing and becoming a police officer and few like myself applauded her.So now all of a sudden people are changing their tunes on what is deemed good or bad in the eyes of the frum.
I beleive Greenwald has been at this for sometime.
Chassidus is not for her …she is white and over eighteen in a free society to do as she pleases and should move on and not disbarage and farshaim the entire Chassidishe world.
I just read an article on another blog “Escaping the Amish” about a woman named Tora Bontrager who left that community. The narrative is virtually identical to Gitty Grunwald’s. It seems both of these women have serious issues and can’t accept personal responsibility, but instead blame all their problems on the life they left behind.
If you would know who this gitty schwartz is u will be ashamed of yourself for waisting your time on her
I didn’t read all comments thoroughly, from skimming through most of ’em, I agree most with anon
07-18-2008 – 4:24 PM.
Davening for those yiddishe neshomalech would help much more than just talking about it here.
May Hashem help us all with what we need, Amen!
Satmar is not a cult. Satmar is a chassidus, just like any chassidus. It has its own derech, its own minhagim. All chassidusin have their specific derech. Stop with this cult issue.
They follow the same Shulchan Aruch as everyone else. If it appears that they are different, it is because they REALLY follow the Shulchan Aruch. They dont adjust it to suit their needs. Their tznina is exemplary. If is annoys you, its because you know in your heart that your own mode of dress has a goyishe taam. Its called GUILT.
The contact she kept with her deformed grandparents,was the begining of the end. Vaad hatznius came only in the picture, when she behaved to other men in a unaceptable manor. She sold her story to the right ROSHO M.J YM’CH,who knows well how to exagerete,lie and mock of Hashem and the basics of Torah. Her grandparents only knew to influence hate against jewishness,not to support her financely as long she’s not earning.
someone should give her a job . she doesnt fit the mold of kj so what? move on. I would be happy to give her a job instead of working in a treif eatery.
“ryan Says:
Yeshivas are run by control freaks running our kids. In India and China average math studies are taken by 87% of children in elementary and High schools. In secular US it is 13.5%. And in Us and Israel in Yeshivas, less than (believe it !!!) 1% take math English, math or basic science.”
In every yeshiva I went to, (and I went to yeshivas, not Hillels or day schools) we were always in the top 5% of the state as were most other yeshivas. In the united states the curiculum is rather standard and every secular school student has to take algebra, geometry, trig, bio, chem, English lit., etc. The notion that only 13.5% of secular students in the US take these is patently false. the notion that less than 1% of yeshiva students take these subjects is an outright lie. I assume your source is likely the same haaretz writer as the one that did the story on Gitty. But humor me and post your source for this absurd factoid.
Wheter or not the “gitty” story was compiled with facts or fiction can be debated, However one thing is very clear that the Education System KJ (or any other alike) have set up in the name of the rebbezevooche and enforced by duvid ekstein is going down the drain if not bankrupt yet! I can see and hear the outcry of the defenders that people in KJ are very happy, pay taxes, have happy families, woman dress in color etc… I agree with all that as well as the community had absolutley no envolvement in this particulary custody battle.
Fact is that kids from ALL sort of families are falling by the wayside in huge numbers, You hear stuff today that even 10-15 years ago was unimagenable, If anything they (Duvid ekstein & company) know the honest truth of how many boys, girls & young adults fall off the rails due to the undeniable failing approach & system
I’m trying to spare details not to get more “dreck” smered on “our” own faces, But Reb Duvid, Reb Aron & company its time to take a good long look in the mirror and realize how corrupt the system is due to results.
Also realizing all the good they have done, Shuls are full with Yungeleit and bochrim almost round the clock, the numerous chesed organzations unpararel to even the greatest jewish communities, Yet if you look at the community as a whole, Its definatley going in the wrong direction, even mainstream people who have resigned to the fact(s) of life hence realizing what the f… is going on around after all of sudden being surrounded by offsprings in high numbers, do not lead a trully happy life of torah and freedom yes freedom! it is possiblle to be torah observent and use your own mind!!
Fact is that many men & women are miserable with the guidelines that are manipulated on them, as witnessed upon the latest elections (wheter kehilla or village) Parents have tried to get petitions, Brave yungeleit have tried to debate with reb aron etc.. Yitzchok rosenberg had pleaded with duvid to resign recently, heck they even added some (Suposedly normal)people to the “Vaad” Yet everything stays the same, 17 Y/O girls are all over the place, V’dal
Face it, there are some who are less fortunate when it comes to what they saw at home, some who didnt have a home at all, some grew up in poverty, some to perhaps not the brightest parents etc..
If a system that “H E L P S” everyone equally isint manifested soon, A “vaad” the is guided with TRUE torah guidance with TRUE professional help to all, matters will only get worse no question about it.
remember no one is excluded, no one has a guarntee in life, People “choose” not to realize it until it hits home.
Sharing my toughts might make my afternnon better, But immense work needs to be implicated in KJ to make others survive the storm
i personally knew gitty as a kid growing up, and maybe that’s why i have a soft spot for her. i feel only sympathy for gitty and wish her all the best always. i feel that it’s a shame that she made such a public scandal of her situation. i don’t think that will be particularly helpful in the healing process.