New York – Brooklyn Man Hopes Potential State Lawsuit Will Force Basic Secular Education In Chasidic Schools

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    FILE - Naftuli Moster, founder of Young Advocates for Fair EducationNew York – Almost 18 months after taking out a billboard to raise awareness for the lack of secular education for boys in the Chasidic community, a Brooklyn man is making plans to sue the New York State Department of Education in an effort to change the status quo.

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    Naftuli Moster, founder of Young Advocates for Fair Education, took out a billboard on the Prospect Expressway in June 2013, reminding parents of their biblical obligation to educate their children, as previously reported on VIN News.

    Since that time, the 28 year old Moster, who grew up in Borough Park and was educated in Belz yeshivos, has taken his concerns to the New York City Board of Education, but he quickly discovered that the root of the problem lay elsewhere.

    “New York City actually has very little to say about non-public schools, other than being forced to divert some funds in that direction,” Moster told VIN News. “This is actually a common misunderstanding, thinking that if it is a Brooklyn school it must be a city matter, but it’s not. Non-public schools are actually under the state’s jurisdiction.”

    Legally non-public schools in New York City are required to provide all their students with a secular curriculum that is substantially equivalent to that of the public schools. Moster said that he met with Department of Education officials in Albany in either 2011 or 2012 and asked them to enforce the law, but with no changes or improvements forthcoming he plans to take things to the next level.

    “I want to start by informing the right people, the right parties, like the governor and the attorney general,” said Moster.

    “If they can make things happen then there would be no need to move forward with litigation. But while we pursue less confrontational methods, we will also be preparing for the event that those won’t work and are working on our case.”

    Moster acknowledged that finding parents who are willing to take part in the legal action is no simple matter in the Chasidic community, where many are afraid of retribution if they take on the current system.

    “The people with the most standing for legal purposes are parents who have kids currently in the system, but that standing can quickly disappear if they speak out publicly because it might get their kids kicked out of school,” said Moster.

    Moster hopes to include several types of plaintiffs in his law suit, including parents who prefer to remain anonymous and those who are willing to give their names, with both current students and former students being represented in the suit.

    “The statute of limitation may not apply here because those who have graduated have never stopped being affected by their lack of education,” theorized Moster. “As far as the law is concerned, yesterday is when it happened.”

    Moster acknowledged that while he himself may be a somewhat controversial figure, his goal is a universal one that is rooted in the Torah: offering children a proper education to help them succeed later in life.

    “This isn’t about me,” said Moster. “It is about an important issue that needs to be addressed. We are talking about bringing in better teachers, taking things more seriously and advocating for things that were the norm 30 years ago like basic history and geography.”

    Both quantity and quality are crucial when it comes to education according to Moster.

    “It is about the number of hours per day, the number of subjects being taught and the number of years they are being taught for,” said Moster. “Also the attitude of the kids, the parents and the school are important as well as the competence of the teacher. I see the value of hiring rebbes for teachers but it they themselves can’t string together a sentence than they are just not qualified.”

    Moster hopes that others parents will come forward to join his suit and noted that he isn’t taking aim at the yeshivas but is just advocating for students of Chasidic yeshivos.

    “Only positive things can come out of improving the educational system,” said Moster.

    The potential law suit was first reported last Friday by the NY Times.(http://nyti.ms/1xE1gdG)


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    79 Comments
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    TunaBeigel
    TunaBeigel
    9 years ago

    Hatzlacha Rabba! Hashem should give you much success! A real “Oisek b’tzarchei tzibbur”.

    zooog
    zooog
    9 years ago

    Correction His name is NAFTALI MOSSER

    9 years ago

    Hear, hear! It’s about time. I have to deal with many of the functional illiterates who are products of certain Chassidishe yeshivahs. They are brilliant young men who are unable to read, write and speak grammatically correct, college-level English. Their primary shortcoming was their inability to marry into a rich family that would put them into a business, so they must go to college to eventually be able to support their families. It’s high time that the chareidi communities took charge of their own lives, and took concrete steps against the denigration of limudei chol by their son’s yeshivahs by members of the Hanhallah who most often have the same skill-set as described as in the second sentence of this thread. I challenge anyone to bring down a mekor for such instiitutionalized am-horatzes.

    chayamom
    chayamom
    9 years ago

    Hatzlacha Raba! This is something that has bothered me for years! Kudos for taking on such a tremendous need. My son went to a chasidish (not satmar) elementary school and does not know basic math. Math is a very basic subject needed for gamara as well as for our day to day needs.

    9 years ago

    he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I studied in Chassidic Yeshivos and Mesiftas, graduated Elementary and HIGH SCHOOL from this Yeshiva & Mesifta, even took some NY State Regents exams along with many other students from this Yeshiva/Mesifta. We all got great marks – between 95 – 100. I worked in Wall Street firms for the entire time of my career in upper management jobs. B”H that I got a great education in my CHASSIDIC YESHIVA & MESIFTA.

    Sholi-Katz
    Sholi-Katz
    9 years ago

    Naftuli, you are a tzaddik. One thing I could never understand, why don’t the Chassidisa Yeshivas get normal speaking English teachers for their children. Why do the children have to grow up, here in America, speaking broken English with a heavy accent. We live her in a country of chesed, why is it wrong to learn to speak a normal clear English. I know of a Chassidisa Rov that can indeed speak a good and proper English, but when he gives a drosha he uses the Yiddish/English accent. Does he assume, it is something wrong to speak a proper English and that his status will somehow be diminished? In Europe all the frum Yidden spoke a proper Hungarian or Rumanian, but here in America , Oh NO , you are somehow not so frum if you speak a proper English. Why sound like a moron when you have to go out deal with the world? What is wrong to say “wait for me” instead of saying “vayt me”.

    cholent
    cholent
    9 years ago

    Breaking news!!
    There are fabulous large out of town communities that have all the infrastructure necessary for a Torah life. There are mikvaos, kosher food and most of all………. phenomenal day schools!!!
    I grew up in Brooklyn and attended a chassidishe school. I moved oot, and my children attend the local day school. Their English reading and writing skills, math skills and general science and world knowledge is far superior to their (very nice) cousins in NY and NJ. And NO, their Torah learning is NOT compromised. The learn less hours a day but the average 8th grade graduate attends many top flight yeshivos in the NY/NJ/MD area and they don’t just do well, but they thrive!
    Don’t fight the system. Move oot.
    Gotta run. My turkey will burn. Lol.

    9 years ago

    Lipa 21,
    You either were in a chassidsha yeshiva a long time ago or you were not in a fully chasidsh yeshiva rather more like a hiemish yeshiva like Novominsk. Facts are the chasidisha yeshivas do not teach english in High school. Thats a verifible fact. You may argue so what you’ll catch up later when in college. Thats a rareity and a tough thing to do. Perhaps you did that as you do sound like a bright guy but I don’t think the masses can do that.
    Brooklyn yid,
    Those are the few lucky ones that struck it rich. The majorty need to be provided with the skill set taht will enable them to succeed as middle class income earners in areas such as accounting, nursing, lawyers etc..
    More generally, If all these kids were learning torah bhasmada a whole day you can make a counter argurment. But come on most of these ninth graders don’t have zitz fliesh to learn gemara a whole day. So why not teach them some light math, history etc.. rather than having them kreitz in the mikva till 11 in the morning.

    Frish
    Frish
    9 years ago

    I admire your courage and hope u succeed.
    But one thing I warn you! Mk sure u are doing it purely “leshem shumayim” and not to undermine the torah or its institutions. Because if thats the case u will not succeed. And it would be a pity for u to fail in ur brave efforts. I reccomend u consult with competent daas torah and wish u great hatzlochah in ur endeavor.

    Moses2
    Moses2
    9 years ago

    I thought the time of non-frum Jews forcing there education and pow on us is over (in 1870). Shame on and his narrow-minded view that secular education is batter then ours. Statically, all in all, our children are much batter off (even Materialistically) then secular education.

    We let him do what he likes, so should he and his friends let us do what we like, is that America?

    Mark Levin
    Mark Levin
    9 years ago

    When someone says, “It isn’t about me,” IT SURE IS!!!!!!

    Nobody
    Nobody
    9 years ago

    If he wants to sue anybody, it should be his parents. The parents want the lack of secular education and choose the school on that basis.

    I went to public school. Let me tell you, you didn’t miss anything in Belz. They don’t give you an education there. But like the Maskillim in Russia, some people want to insist that Jews get full secular educations while not caring how illiterate the non-Jews are.

    And the idea that this law suit isn’t Mesira is laughable.

    sighber
    sighber
    9 years ago

    Basic reading, writing, and math skills can be taught to elementary students. Most students in secular high schools will tell you that a lot of the coursework that they are taught are not necessary to get a good job. How many jobs use the knowledge that students gained from learning history, geography, algebra, or geometry? The most important courses that are not taught in yeshivas are gym and health. Many yeshiva students are out of shape. Many have inadequate levels of vitamin D because of being indoors most of the day. How many students know about nutrition or about various diseases, including STD’s? Students need to be taught to live.

    9 years ago

    Parents have a right to choose which school to send their children to. The school is not the problem it is the parents. When will people start taking responsibility for their own actions.

    yossele
    yossele
    9 years ago

    As someone educated in the public school system, I can tell you that you are GROSSLY OVERESTIMATING the value of secular, public education.

    sighber
    sighber
    9 years ago

    The sad truth is that some yeshivos don’t give a good Jewish education either. There is very little oversight over what teachers teach and how they teach. Some teachers don’t even teach-they rely on chavrusahs. Also students are not given a chance to ask questions they may have about Yiddishkeit because if they do, they may be punished.

    9 years ago

    It’s about time our yeshivos learned a lesson or two from our Bais Yaakov Schools. They provide an excellent education for our girls in both limudei kodesh and limudei chol – and in a lot less hours per day than the yeshivos. If I had one complaint to Mr. Moster it would be that he didn’t go far enough. I think he should sue the yeshivos for child abuse – 13-14 hour school days is outrageous! 7:30 – 9:00 every day – and they can’t even manage to find a little time to teach some limudei chol.

    tehillim_119_72
    tehillim_119_72
    9 years ago

    while he’s right in everything he said about the hasidic Yeshivas not teaching secular subjects (at least enough in order to get a job and not become a ganuf).

    His suing Yeshiva over this most likely will lead to the destruction of Yiddishkeit in America even in Yeshivas that teach secular subjects.

    NY state law passed a few years ago mandates schools teach pro homosexuality courses. (voted on by almost every single legislator representing Jewish neighborhoods). This law has led to girls upstate being forced to ask each other to kiss.

    in Belgium after that neturai karta guy sued the school system they started to go into Yeshiva with the gay curriculum.

    recently in Britain they had inspector go into Beis Yaakovs and ask the girls if they knew that 2 men can get “married” this happened partly because they “discovered” that some Jewish schools are not teaching secular studies. If the liberals retake the parliament it would take a neis galuy for Jewish schools to be able to stay open and be run according to the torah.

    This is coming to America if we don’t fight it, but what we call “daas” “Torah” said we should support homosexuality

    CHANA1
    CHANA1
    9 years ago

    I disagree with this. Students that come from homes where such legislation will not be supported will not be encouraged or helped by their parents regarding their schoolwork and their attitude will certainly not influence their studies positively. The Yeshiva cannot and should not be forced to put their time efforts and money to secular studies; whatever they are doing now is quiet dismal in most chassidisha mosdos and a waste of time. Options the community may want to consider is opening a separate learning or tutoring center after yeshiva hours run by qualified staff. And it should be optional–but that would be the program the govt should help fund!

    thegreatone
    thegreatone
    9 years ago

    Even if he is right lets not get fooled by this Moster guy. He is not concerned for the well being of our dear kinderleach. The point he is trying to make is one thing only:
    to defame,slander,malign and besrimch the entire orthodox community where he grew up.

    Motti_sun
    Motti_sun
    9 years ago

    First and foremost we must understand that secular education as it exist in America is not the entire solution to everyone in our community magically becoming successful. How many people graduate from universities throughout the country? A lot. How many of them get jobs right away? very few… State colleges and universities are a business and their job is to take more students and keep them their longer. Less than 40% of college students finish in 4 years. Most students when they finish are in debt.

    As a community we should educate our children in things that will help them be successful. English math (various levels of math) and possibly science.

    Is there a problem in our community yes, but also in the general population.

    For the young people that blame the chassidishe yeshiva system, well grow up and take responsibility for your own future. There are so many programs out there to help you get an education if that is what you think will make you a super star. If you are married it will be a big financial sacrifice, like kollel. No country houses, no vacations, sell your car, etc…

    DOVE1
    DOVE1
    9 years ago

    Mr Mosser .Dont know exactly what you do for a living .but I grew up in BP CHASIDISH YESHIVA.I won’t say my English is perfect but so is my Peru or Russian customers, I run a nice size business BH ,

    fat36
    fat36
    9 years ago

    I finished yeshiva I went to get a GED graduated masters living the good life and it was no problem. the guy is just a loser so blame everyone else. Maybe I’m wrong I don’t know this guy

    Moish
    Moish
    9 years ago

    The real missing component in our yeshivos is giving the children a love for Torah and Simchas Hachayim. If everything is what you have to and can’t do, instead of recognizing and fulfilling our true roles in serving Hashem, people will always be complaining. If we instill the love for Yiddishkeit, the faculty and students would be more enthusiastic in both Limudei Kodesh to directly fulfill our roles here, and in Limudei Chol to allow us to properly function in society. If we want change, we need to focus and adjust what people should want, not arm-twist with a lawsuit.

    The goals of this lawsuit do not justify the means. A successful lawsuit may force the inclusion of secular education in mosdos hatorah, but will not yield a proper educational curriculum and program without the community thirst and respect for the knowledge. You are more likely to prevail by opening new heimishe schools that cater to chassidishe families that respect a proper education, than by forcing the education on those that resent it.

    leinelnet1
    leinelnet1
    9 years ago

    While the issue at hand might be a very important one that needs to be addressed but let’s take a step back and see who is the one addressing the issue. I personally know Tully Moster I grew up with him. Behind the little black kippa (which he does not wear on a regular basis only for ths photo shoot) is a rotten apikoris that does believe in god let alone the Torah a while back he posted a picture if him eating pork on Yom Kippur. And is full of hatred torwards the orthodox community. Let not he be the to teach us on how to educate our kids and not be fooled that he has our community best interest in mind

    popa-
    popa-
    9 years ago

    Pretty unquestionably mesira. Highly ironic that’s basically his name also.

    IMHOpinion
    IMHOpinion
    9 years ago

    Yeah, he won’t change a thing.
    As long as the parents are ok with things the way they are, nothing will change.
    And frankly, it’s not his business anymore. He should have much mazel in his new community, but he should stay out of our Mosdos.
    He’s not trying to help us, only to help himself besmearch the Chassidic schools.

    9 years ago

    To those calling him names and making him out to be a bad guy, I’m wondering how you would have characterized him had he started an organization that hands out food or jobs.
    That’s essentially what he is doing! “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime”
    But people find it convenient to smear him in order to discredit him.
    Mr. Moster should be praised for his work.

    shvigger
    shvigger
    9 years ago

    The purpose of a secular elementary school education is to get kids into high school where the goal is to get as many students into college. The secular educational system is a huge scam.

    maysways18
    maysways18
    9 years ago

    I have grown up in the established Community within Brooklyn, Chassidshe style English education, with Heimishe Teachers, similar to Satmar Bobov etc…
    All I can say it – that it was perfect for what we need, we came out enough wise.

    The result:

    Thank God, I am a successful Real Estate Dealer, with over $200 Million value of Acquisitions within the last 24 months. Thank God my level of understanding and deal structures are very appropriate and like wise all my business associates, I am considered a principle and Directorship role, along with most of my staff who were all from the same establishment as I am.
    Law Attorneys and accountants alike admire our Level of knowledge and skills, without going through and spending years in college.

    The architects – Building experts – tax advisors – and all or most of the services my business uses, are companies service providers established within our communities local young professionals within this system,

    To me the system is perfect but can use some uplift. To say it’s a NO system,
    That’s a lie – as the proof is all these professional companies.

    Not to mention that the Life Insurance industry – within the Heimishe Brooklyn companies are the biggest and most successful within the USA in terms of rates and value of policies.

    Please join the successful jewish people…if you can’t fight them….join them….
    The worst case….you will have some extra $$$$$

    LebidikYankel
    LebidikYankel
    9 years ago

    I wonder aloud: does Mr Moster have a track record of klal work, or is this his only cause?

    hashomer
    hashomer
    9 years ago

    It’s idiotic that he’s suing NY State Ed for not complying with a law that 99% of frum families don’t want. Maybe he should be suing the yeshivas that get state funding but don’t educate their students with a minimum of secular knowledge. And a Happy Thanksgiving to all who don’t know that today is Thanksgiving in America.

    a-simple-jew
    a-simple-jew
    9 years ago

    What’s all the fuss about. If Mr. Moster wants a more intense English studies program for his kids, he should simply enroll them in a more modern Jewish day school. Problem solved. The Chassidishe mosdos are providing the type of chinuch that their parent body wants to have for their children. And they have every right to do so. No body is forcing Mr. Moster to send his kids to those mosdos. Let him just go elsewhere. He has free choice like anyone else. He is making a lot of trouble for nothing. Perhaps there are other motivations that are driving his campaign?

    9 years ago

    Noone says that the secular education system is at all better that our system. In fact its far worse. But noone is proposing a full day of secular education as was the case in Volozin. All we are proposing is to incorporate the advantages of the secular system in our yeshivas. There is no question that in the corporate business world one is required to have a basic understanding and knowledge of these subjects. That does not mean its our life or ideal values but its an important tool.
    That being said the argument that the public school system is worse is a silly argument. Because noone is suggesting that we model thier system rather that we incorporate the advantages of the system.
    Those that argue they run a business without an education. True thats possible but you won’t be able to get a middle class job in the corporate world without a normal education. You can’t assume that we are all capable of opening sucessfull stores.
    For those invoking Czarist Russia arguments its very different in nature. Those gezaras were enacted by maskilim who wanted all jews to become enlightened and secular. Here in the USA noone is asking you to shmad just to obtain the proper skills for a job

    9 years ago

    You can hire private tutor any time or tutor yourself. My husband has an excellent english from listening a lot of high vocabulary English after his wedding. He has all state/ federal documents to operate his trade. So as you see, he caught up beautifully. His brother is in a different trade. Checks on Word in the computer the spelling if he has a hard word but that I do too and I went to a Bais Yaakov . My Goishe workmates do too. That brother also makes a very nice living.

    9 years ago

    This is the good part of a private school that they decide what to learn. Of he wants he can send his kids whenever he wants to. He should not tell me how to educate my kids.

    9 years ago

    For all you know it alls I was a teacher at. Machon Leparnasah when Mr. Mosster first came to the school. He tried really hard to keep up with his classes but it was really hard for him to keep up with the basic college courses due to the 4th grade education he received in Belz. I used to mentor him and try to guide him during a very tough time for him. He is a prime example why yeshivas including Lakewood yeshivas have kids off the derech. They are so frustrated by their lack of education they completely turn off from yiddishkite.I do give credit to Mr. Moster for not giving up and continuing his education despite his hardships. Unfortunately his yiddishkite did suffer but as an educator I see more chasidim going to collect and becoming accountants and therapists. It won’t be long before we see a doctor who came from such a chassidish background.

    9 years ago

    Guys. His cause is great but his intentions are not good……

    Besides, i grew up with this systems, i see no problem with it, better is always appreciated but not to make a big deal out of it, i have 5 kids running a business b”h all with my broken English. .

    This shmok is getting his 15 minutes of fame. after, he will write a book and life will move on with out him….

    jewishgirl123
    jewishgirl123
    9 years ago

    While I agree that poor secular education can be debilitating for the future success of the Chassidish community, I don’t like this organization’s approach. I have read articles put out by Mr. Moster’s wife that bash the frum community and completely seem like they have a real vendetta against the community as a whole. A better approach is to create vocational training programs for Chassidish youth and to push leaders in the Chassidish movement to adopt a more openness to education. I also know that him and his wife are no longer frum and I’m pretty sure they are Atheists too. People like this will only make us look bad, not actually help the people they claim they are trying to help!

    9 years ago

    I’m a recruiter who tries to place these yeshiva graduates and they can’t write a basic sentence. Not one has passed basic math. A second grader in public school knows more. Truly they will always need support from family.

    COMPASSion
    COMPASSion
    9 years ago

    Many of you commenters here are the best argument for improving secular studies in our yeshivas…your grammar is abominable, your spelling, when correct, is clearly by spellchecker, and the structure of your English is so poor you sound like you stepped off a boat a year ago rather than being American-born. Your grandmother spoke better Hungarian than you do English, and she was probably pretty proud of it too. Incredibly, there was a time when fluency in the language of one’s country was seen as a positive thing and it wasn’t that long ago either.

    You may brag about your achievements in business, dubious or not, but look around you and see that for every successful businessman there are 3 or 4 heimishe men struggling to make ends meet, handicapped by their lack of education. Poverty levels hover at over half in our communities, at least. Even if 90% of men would go on to become successful businessmen, it is still unfair to the remaning 10% to deprive them of the educational basics that would enable them to seek a parnassah fairly.

    Increasing numbers of heimishe men are getting college degrees, true. But they start out with distinct disadvantages, unnecessarily.

    9 years ago

    i don’t understand why all the blame is being directed to the “chasidishe” yeshivas. In Lakewood there are no mesivtas with secular studies either. On the other hand until a few years ago chasidishe yeshivas had english as part of regular curriculum so its just the competition between mosdos thats doing this.

    Micka
    Micka
    9 years ago

    Bust!
    No, really that is how I feel sometimes in regard to the irrational spewing on the topic of education in Chasiddesh Mossdos . As a veteran English & General Studies Teacher and Administration employee in a Chassidesh Mossed in Boro Park, I uniquely have an insiders perspective.
    The mossed want’s to please parents (the majority or “powerful ones”), and will do whatever the parent body wants. The Mossed could desire to teach Shakespeare and the theory of relativity, but could only give what the parents and children want to receive. Now you’ll say that parents want that their children should have the best education… Beh, that’s what they say when everything is going great. The moment you carefully, and sensitively begin to discuss the possibility that the child should work harder to bring up his grades or behave himself, they all start whining, “oh you have to understand he is still a child”, “it’s the end of the day”, “we are focusing on Yiddish”, or my favorite one “you have to make it more interesting” (maybe I’ll bring a Disco light and something combustable).

    Micka
    Micka
    9 years ago

    Continued
    As long as the mentality that English studies are not important prevails, they truly are unimportant! If English is the time you take your kids shopping, to learn Limudai Kodesh (because by night he needs to play for 4 hours straight), or every fifteenth cousin wedding, you are showing your child, “Neh it’s not really important”. You could insist to the contrary, yet your actions speak volumes.
    There doesn’t have to be a competition or comparison with Limudai Kodesh. They are serious and important in their own way. We can’t constantly lower are standards, because soon we will have none left. Experience has shown me that when you control your class, and make it enjoyable and rewarding, you could push standards slowly higher and higher.
    In conclusion, it’s a mentality that has to change by parents, followed by their children, then we have a chance to teach.
    Next we’ll talk about WHAT to teach and why.