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New York City - Grossly Offensive Attack By Conservative Rabbi: Chasidim Aren't Very Lawful, Rabbi Balkany Stongly Condemns. |
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Last updated on: Jul 30, 2008 at 07:17 PM
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New York - In this past week conservative Rabbi David Lincoln- Park Ave Synagogue, was on the Jewish TV Channel i 
n a round table discussion with many rabbis including one orthodox rabbi and the topic was Kashrut and the Rubashkin scandal
In a spiteful harsh attack Rabbi Lincoln said: I think there is a general feeling that in the Orthodox community, many Orthodox communities, especially in the more Chareidi, more extreme Orthodox communities, there is more concern for the strict rules of Halacha – of how you cut the animals throats or how you examine the lungs and they are not concerned about whether you are stealing or whatever or going into court to perjure themselves.
There is a general feeling- I mean I often say that if I was if I was going to court or to do a business deal, it is a terrible thing to say, would I go to a chusid in Monsey or somewhere or would I go to one Rabbi Ammiel's (reform) congregants. Who can I trust more to tell the truth in the court and everything?
See below youtube Video
U/D
After VIN News reported the above story, it has caused a major firestorm by many in the orthodox community, Rabbi Milton Balkany, a leading Orthodox rabbi, Jewish community leader, educator and political activist who has been in the center of many issues within the Jewish community, issued the below statement , and requested for more than a simple apology from Rabbi David Linclon.
I am appalled at the divisive statements on Orthodoxy by a colleague, Rabbi David Lincoln leader of the Park Avenue Synagogue. said rabbi Balkany.
"myself and Rabbi Lincoln once shared a dais at President Ronald Reagan’s inauguration, now i am frightened at what I hear".
“By saying that as he did, he is as bad as he claims all of Orthodoxy is. By wantonly stating that Hasidim, or ‘extreme orthodox’ Jews all commit crime or allow it to happen, or to suggest that we hold common law to be unimportant as a rule, a way of life, is nearing the kind of hatred gentile nations have committed against Jews in some of the worst human atrocities throughout the centuries.” Rabbi Balkany said.
Balkany further stated, “When I saw Rabbi Lincoln say that, I could do little but gasp at the simplistically narrow view of a man who leads such an influential congregation, and how he may be influencing Jews against other Jews… I am not certain a simple apology would suffice, for the sentiment runs deeper than any empty apology can contain.”
As someone who had been immersed in public controversy and allegations of illegal and even criminal behavior, who had been ostracized in the media and in public, and then who was quietly exonerated with little to no fanfare, Rabbi Balkany knows the power of hateful words. He said, “I believe it is my duty to condemn such words that bitterly label an entire people out of convenience in the hope of grabbing a headline.”
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Read Comments (109) — Post Yours »
1
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:24 PM ANONYYMOUS Says:
This is what Rubashkin did. Complete Chullul Hashem.
I do not hold from any conservative or reform rabbi. Because they deny the oral halachos, they can not be trusted at all represent any other Jew. Look how they demean frum Jews. If they do it, then how much more do the goyim do it, in private and in public.
2
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:28 PM a yid Says:
these rabbis are all jealous because as their congregations shrink and shrink, hasidic and other frum congregrations are exploding. so because they no leg to stand on regarding kashrus or any other halachic matter they have resorted to attacking frum jews on their moral and ethical values! it's pathetic! these rabbis and their "judaism" have led to the self-destruction of so many yidden here in america. promoting intermarriage isn't a moral issue?
3
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:29 PM Overnight kigel Says:
Once again someone proves the point that "the biggest anti-semites are Jews". Unfortunately the only way that the Reform and Conservative Jews can justify thier way of life is by finding something wrong with the Orthodox. While the actions alleged at Rubashkin (if true) are certainly not in the spirit of Halachah or Yiddishkeit, it is certainly not a reflection on the average Orthodox Jew, nor the average Chusid.
4
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:30 PM BARR Says:
BS"D
This man needs to be treated as the Black community would treat a Klansman who opened his dirty mouth, except that as a Yid he can do tshuva.
5
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:39 PM Drill Here!!! Drill Now!!! Save Money!!! Says:
we need to point out how krum these people are for pointing out short comings in other yiddin. these low lifes who don't even ATTEMPT to keep torah u'mitzvos. I don't see them as tinuk she'nishba as the live in the NY area and they KNOW what shomer shabbos is etc.
Hey mr 'rabbi' show me a second, third, or even fourth generation authentic yid from your flock and I will proclaim it as a miracle. most of them are not even HALACHIKLY Jewish.
6
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:40 PM Shomer Torah Says:
A YID: I agree but this is clearly more then sophomoric jealousy but obvious shinas chanim. Notice he is upset about the hiring of illegal workers. Even if Rubashkin was complicit in hiring illegals which I might add has NOT been proven in ANY COURT OF LAW that has NOTHING to do with Rubashkin hecsher.
I think Jews should invest in a program that trains monkeys to properly slaughter the chickens at Rubashkin. That would really get the PETA people upset. This is a joke of course but this is also the point. As ludicrous as this sounds, so much more so is it ridiculous to say Rubashkin isnt Kosher. If you look at the Rusbashkin case between the lines, you will find that it is nothing more then an attack on Kashrus. I would be curious if this conservative Rabbi is a member of PETA himself and also a vegetarian.
7
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:
what rubashkin did was far from illegal and i happen to know as i was there as it was going on i was in postville and i could tell u its far from black and white and also there was alot of not true things said to be going on that anyone with half a brain would know was a lie
8
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:42 PM Anonymous Says:
I am an Orthodox Jew and there is some truth to his words. There is unfortunately a tendency among the "ultra-orthodox" (a term that is rather ridiculous) to focus excessively on bein adam laMakom while bein adam lachaveiro is given less consideration. This is not how it is supposed to be! V'ohavto l'rayacha kamocha is supposed to be a guiding principle in everything we do. If only it actually was.
9
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:44 PM Anonymous Says:
the fact that the conservitive and reform attack the orthodox is just a show of their ignorance of the situation and their lack of self esteem i truly feel bad for them and i hope one day they will come to their senses
10
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:45 PM Miri Kal Says:
Can someone please tell me what Rabbi Lincoln said that is incorrect?
Just because he is reform, does not mean he is wrong in this case.
11
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:46 PM Shmek Tabik Says:
Does this Rabbi want me to compile a list of all conservative and reform ganovim and murderers? I'm not saying chas vesholim that we don't have to obey the Torah and the laws of the land. But them? They're the ones to trust? They're not worth a shmek tabik - in my eyes (nose).
12
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:51 PM Stam a Yid Says:
I hate to say it, but he has a point. Many Frum, Erliche, Yidden are extremely Makpid about Halacha, but treat secular law as something to be followed only if you think you'll get caught. The "social compact" of general society is not something that they see as applying to themselves, even when there's a good reason for the law in question.
Stam a Yid
13
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:52 PM A FRUM MINNESOTAN Says:
It's A known fact that the Conservative Rabbis are trying to grab a piece of the BILLION dollar kashrus industry, they finnaly have somthing to stand on, and as long we stupid frum people are gonna play in to it they will keep trying...KASHRUS BELONGS TO FRUM PEOLPLE WHO DON'T PICK AND JUST OUT OF THE TORAH...
14
Jul 30, 2008 at 03:57 PM Anonymous Says:
The statement by the conservative rabbi is not troubling. What is troubling is the so-called orthodox rabbi who said through it nodding and smiling instead of calling this fellow for what he is - a biggot.
15
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:01 PM EB Says:
I met Lincoln, recently. He's a 'nice' guy, possibly more conservedox than conservative. agav, regarding his comment:I met a successful Jewish business, not oryhodox but definitely traditional. He told me about a business transaction he was about to close with a frum/chassidish guy. When he heard the frum guy mutter b'li neder' under his breath, he pulled out. Though anicdotal, this in line with the popular trend in the frum community..focus on the letter of the law, not the spirit.
16
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:05 PM Miri Kal Says:
I HAVE TO ASK AGAIN SINCE NO ONE WILL ANSWER -
WHAT DID RABBI LINCOLN SAY THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT??
17
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:14 PM Anonymous Says:
just to shed light on all this!
There was once a "Datcher" (reform or conserv)Yid that asked one of our Ultra Orthodox (chassidish) rabbis; we both have our few mitzvahs that we each feel we are better at so what makes you think that yours are better than ours, we (datcher) maybe arent so makpid on "teharis Hamishpocha", Shabbos and kashrus, but we are 100% strict on sheker (lies), loshon hora, Kibbud Av etc. why do you (chasidim and litvish etc.) think you are better than us.
the Tzadik answered him (and this is a real great lesson) We (orthodox) are makpid on Shabbos Teharis Hamishpocha an Kashrus so this Makes us a YID (jew)but as you say we are not a good yid if we lie etc. but you because you are oiver on these things you are not even a yid so with your good behavior of kibud Av and Sheker you are a good goy! a well mannered animal.
vdie lehovin
18
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:15 PM Michal Says:
Who was the orthodox rabbi in the round table discussion?
19
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:16 PM Anonymous Says:
The truth hurts. This is sad commentary. During the three weeks, we should all think about our interactions,both business and non-business, both between frum and non-frum, and think whether we are making a kiddush hashem or chas v'shalom the opposite? Are we causing the flames of sinah to arise? This is good, important, and tragic Mussar.
20
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:23 PM Anonymous Says:
Well there is a problim with that Rabbi he is more concernd with the law then with the Shulchan Aruch
21
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:30 PM Yossi G. Says:
Sad how many people (see above comments) are automatically going into the denial mode, instead of doing some deep introspection into why frum people are more and more frequently being seen by the non-frum and the non-Jews as crooks, liars, and cheats. We frum peple know that the crooks are a small minority, but we must do something about the public perception that we're all like that. In the same way that one chassid with long peyos going into a dirty movie is more visible than a hundred reform Jews, and thus a greater chilul Hashem, one obvious frummie on the front page of the Post is a major chilul Hashem, and condemns us all to be suspected of being like him, instead of being respected as the tzelem Elokim. Rabbosai, let's put "being ehrlich" back into the curriculum as a priority!
22
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:30 PM Anonymous Says:
This 'Rabbi" Lincoln - is he "ben-achar-ben" of our late President Abraham? Or is he the nephew of Lincoln Tunnel?. His face and his name makes him look like a goyishe Bowery bum rather than a 'rabbi'. Just let us see your IRS report, and your private life, ye lowlife!
23
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:33 PM bright idea Says:
MILCHOMO LASHEM LEMOLEK.
24
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:34 PM EB Says:
Actually Lincoln studied in Gateshead, his roots 9 partially) Litvhsh. Probably the last name was changed a generation or two back. As far as private life, he's probably got less to hide than you.
25
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:37 PM Anonymous Says:
@ Michal: 4:15PM
"Who was the orthodox rabbi in the round table discussion?
Rabbi Shmuel Goldin, Englewood NJ, Ahavat Torah
26
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:38 PM Drill Here!!! Drill Now!!! Save Money!!! Says:
You wanted to know what mr lincoln said that was incorrect?
there is no proof yet of all the charges brought against rubashkin. we already know this was brought on by the unions and pita yemach sh'mom.
we cannot go and help everyone else smear fellow yiddin. what about SIMPLE halochos of loshon hora & rLchilos???
Also, as my Rosh Yeshiva has been known to say, "All reform & conservative rabbis should be sued for malpractice!"
27
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:38 PM Chaim S. Says:
I just sent Rabbi Lincoln a letter asking him if he has clear evidence that chasidim in general are unlawful. I asked him if Ivan Boesky, Michael Milliken, and Eliot Spitzer were chasidim. I also asked him if he got his data from Protocols of Zion.
28
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:39 PM bright idea Says:
ITS HIGH TIME THAT ALL THE ORTHODOX COME TOGETHER AND FIGHT THESE frauds the CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT.
The crooks is a human phenomenon which exist within the Conservative phoneys as in all human groups.
If the Frumeh don't expose the deceptive misrepresentation of the Conservatives as a viable brand of Judaism we can expect them to become more and more aggressive.
Conservative movement is facing extinction that's a fact - they have no idea what they represent and neither does any one else.
ITS ABOUT TIME THAT FRUMEH YIDDEN STAND AND TELL THE WORLD that "rabbis" who are mechalel shabbos don't put on teffilin and don't keep Taharas hamishpoch ARE FRAUDS.
They represent nothing else but their desire to make money and fraudulently and deceptively organize wealthy Jews for their own agendas and power.
29
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:41 PM bright idea Says:
let them all go like the Rambam says -- about minim and apikursim to where they belong.....
30
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:43 PM Shmek Tabik Says:
He is NO ABRAHAM LINCOLN. He's not even worth a penny. Der lincoln hut zich farshtinken.
31
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:43 PM yenta pesha Says:
time to chicken out and let's go to the next topic.leave the chickens alone.
32
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:51 PM Anonymous Says:
UNFORTOUNATLEY THERE IS TRUTH TO THIS RABBIS WORDS WE FRUMME YIDDEN ARE HELD (AND RIGHTFULLY SO)TO A HIGHER STANDARD WE WHO ARE CHAREDI AND CARRY THE BANNER OF TORAH HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL OF CHILLUL HASHEM AND THAT GOES FOR ALL PARTS OF THE TORAH EQUALLY ALL 4 CHALOKIM OF THE SHULCHUN ARUCH KASHRUTH=YOREHDEA/CHOSEHN MISHPUT=DINE MOMONUS/EVEN EZER=INYUNEE ARAYOS ETC
ITS OBVIOUS THAT AS MENTIONED BY THE FRUM RAV YOU CANT PAINT A WHOLE SEGMENT OF PEOPLE DUE TO A FEW ROTTON APPLES
BUT THEIR IS A REASON FOR WHY THIS CONCERVATIVE RABBI SAID WHAT HE DID AS WELL AS WHY THE NEWS WILL HAVE A FIELD DAY WHEN A FRUM/CHASIDIC JEW IS INVOLVED "BECAUSE ITS A GIVEN THAT A (FRUM/CHASIDIC)JEW SHOULD ACT BETTER AND IS HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD ABOVE THE USAUL CRIMINAL ELEMENTS WE FIND IN OUR PRESENT DAY SOCIETY
33
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:51 PM Anonymous Says:
Conservative Judaism is a halakhic movement. You may not agree with their poskening, but nonetheless, they rely firmly on the halakhic process to arrive at all institutional positions.
Reform Judaism is post-halakhic -- meaning that halakha informs decisionmaking but does not have an overriding vote -- which is a position the movement arrived at through a process of halakhic and philosophic reasoning. You may disagree, but to suggest that one is a goy if they have a different sort of relationship to halakha than we had in 19th century Poland is an insult to some of our tradition's greatest tzadikim.
Furthermore, it is not Orthodoxy, but Reform Judaism which is the fastest growing Jewish movement in the world. I hate to break it to you, but 80% of Jews worldwide are non-Orthodox and many of them are actively engaged in the Jewish community, whether as Reform, Conservative, or unaffiliated Jews. If anyone is not representative of the larger Jewish community, it is the haredim, who live cloistered, insular lives disconnected from the rest of Jews worldwide.
And while it's true, that the haredi community loves to reproduce, the fact is, if it weren't for non-haredim going to college, getting jobs, serving in the military and public office and paying taxes, the haredim would disappear overnight, unable to sustain their lifestyles. Who cuts your kollel checks? The unemployed pasty faced bochurim? As if. The money often comes from the non-religious, who think they're doing teshuva with their checkbooks.
Worse yet, these same disconnected haredi Jews -- many of whom are so bigoted against their fellow Jews, whom they see as goyim, that they won't even stop to have a conversation with them -- cast more aspersions and lob more insults as their non-haredi counterparts than the insults ever go in the opposite direction. So much for chesed, for tzedek, for derech eretz, for ahavas yisroel, for kvod briyot -- all these things haredim are supposed to be living exemplars and beacons of in the world.
The greater irony is that these same haredim who attack non-haredi Jews for not being halakhic, and who pride themselves on their knowledge of and commitment to halakha are constantly being exposed as frauds, hypocrites and criminals -- embezzling money, exploiting workers, sexually assaulting children...
The fact is that the haredim don't hold a monopoly on morality, ethics, avodas hashem, or ahavas yisroel. They're just as flawed and shameful as the rest of us. We are all worthless failures in the eyes of hakadosh barachu. And to be sure, because you all are supposed to know better, He's going to be a LOT harder on you.
34
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:52 PM izzy Says:
what did he say wrong?
35
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:56 PM Anonymous Says:
blah blah blah who cares what Rabbi ( a shame to call him Rabbi who made him a Rabbi what qulifications dose he have for a Rabbi) Lincoln said, the fact that he isnt a shomer torah and mitzvos he cant tell from right to wrong and BTW "das torah hepech das bal-habies" if you know what that means Mr. Lincoln and second what wrong did Rubashkin do by leting these people work what dose this have to do with torah or yidiskiet
36
Jul 30, 2008 at 04:59 PM Anonymous Says:
What he said is sad, but true. Miri Kal, you are right...
37
Jul 30, 2008 at 05:06 PM Anonymous Says:
Anon 4:51... i dont know what Conservative Judaism is all about but i can tell you that a jew has no right to pick what he or she likes and what not to say we dont beleave in that,we have a torah from har sini that tells us how to live dose not mater how fast your people are grewing will stay strong and wait for Mashiach now
38
Jul 30, 2008 at 05:08 PM Anonymous Says:
As several commentors already pointed out, we in the frum community have a problem. It is hard to imagine that any of us has not once heard the exact same words come out of the mouth of one of our fellow frum yidden (if not our own mouths) and not understand on some level that as a community we have some cheshbon hanfesh to make.
Yes, there is little doubt that coming from a conservative "Rabbi", it stinks and is a chilul Hashem.
But once that has been said, shouldn't we then ask ourselves whether it is true?
Shouldn't we ask ourselves if we ever say things in front of our children that sugeest that secular law is the product of goyim and needs to be tolerated at best and subverted at worst?
Shouln't we ask ourselves what can we do and what message can we impart to our children in order to see to it that this perception about the frum community goes away?
Lastly, it is probably true that the focus on corrupt behavior among the frum is probably disproportiate to its occurence and is likely highlighted only becasue of the stark contrast it provides to the outwardly religious lifestyle we display. As such we can easily indulge the claim that we are subjected to a double standard.
Be that as it may, aren't we in fact obligated to subject ourselves to a higher standard?
Something to think about as we apporach another Tisha B'Av without the Bais Hamikdash. Let's remember what the gemara says about a generation that does not see the rebuilding of the BH.
Kol Tuv
39
Jul 30, 2008 at 05:09 PM Critic Says:
Miri Kal:
You asked:
I HAVE TO ASK AGAIN SINCE NO ONE WILL ANSWER -
WHAT DID RABBI LINCOLN SAY THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT??
A: the torah has 613 mitzvos & 7 d'rabanan. Don't pick or choose any single one (that you don't keep, by the way) and harp on other pepoles wrong doings. wether they are halacha'ik or unlawful!
To All, AND MiriKal re-read, Anonymous 4:14pm Says:
just to shed light on all this!
40
Jul 30, 2008 at 05:25 PM moses Says:
this rabbi was unfair in his comments
41
Jul 30, 2008 at 05:29 PM Anonymous Says:
This Lincoln guy was raised frum, and went off the deep end & became a conservative (rabbi). so it's only natural for him to be antagonistic. He comes from a family of distinguished Rabbonim in England.
42
Jul 30, 2008 at 05:33 PM Anonymous Says:
To Critic and others,
Just because they don't follow the Torah doesn't excuse the behavior of the ones who should know better. If the frum is representative of the "Light Onto The Nations", we are viewed to have higher standards. Clearly recent events have shown those representatives are behaving on a substandard level.
Unfortunately, he's right and I wouldn't feel comfortable dealing with a frummer yid in many cases without adequate legal protection, just as much as anyone else, if not more so.
43
Jul 30, 2008 at 05:36 PM Anonymous Says:
It was a conservative rabbi that is now in jail for hiring a hit-man to kill his wife. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
The heads of major investment funds that defrauded millions were Conservative jews. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
It was a conservative Rabbi that had a mistress and promised her the world and then reneged. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
It was a conservative Rabbi/Shul that was caught with fake DOT parking permits. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
The list goes on and on, but of course who's counting.
44
Jul 30, 2008 at 06:04 PM yid Says:
TRUE Yiddishkeit comes from the heart. It has nothing to do with where you daven,how you dress, or who your rabbi is. There are crooks everywhere and they will all be punished...whether they wear a shtreimel or no yarmulka.
45
Jul 30, 2008 at 06:15 PM Its no joke Says:
What he said wrong was simply what the frum rabbi said he said - don't bashmutz an entire community because of a few people
46
Jul 30, 2008 at 06:20 PM Anonymous Says:
Rabbi Balkany responds?? what a joke. This Balkany is a perfect example of what Rabbi Linclon is talking about, v'hamayvim yavim!
47
Jul 30, 2008 at 06:25 PM a yid Says:
the problem with what mr. lincoln said is he has a blatant agenda. he isn't looking for truth at all, he is looking for excuses to bash frum jews, hasidim in particular (though probably anyone who wears any kind of black hat). do his claims have truth to them? of course they do! often frum jews may disregard secular law completely and it can be a problem. but for these self-righteous conservative "rabbis" to bash all frum jews because of a few bad apples is wrong. is there a higher proportion of frum criminals than non-frum criminals? probably not. any God-fearing person will naturally be more moral and more ethical than someone who doesn't believe in God at all. the problem is if any frum jew who commits any crime makes a Chillul Hashem for ALL frum jews, whereas any non-frum jew's actions doesn't reflect his entire community because he doesn't DRESS like he's part of any community at all (i'd be hesitant to call conservative or reforms jews a "community" though).
48
Jul 30, 2008 at 06:37 PM Kashrus insider Says:
The backround of this whole issue is the multi- million dollar kashrus industry.
For Years, the conservative and reform movements could only stand by and watch as the orthodox controlled the growing kashrus industry.
Now they smell blood and and trying to taint the orthodox movement and then move onto thier goal of gaining a toehold into the industry.
Thank you Rabbi Balkany for Standing firm in defense of greater orthodoxy.
In fact, much of the negotiations with the conservative movemnt over this kashrus issue has been done behind the scenes. They are growing more and more fustrated. (hence their desperation).
49
Jul 30, 2008 at 07:06 PM dovid Says:
Let Rabbi Lincoln know how u feel EMAIL HIM
dlincoln@pasyn.org
50
Jul 30, 2008 at 07:12 PM conservative hoof'n mouth disease Says:
I wonder what haughty holier-than-thou Lincolns colleague the disgraced conservative clergyman "rabbi" from Cherry Hill, NJ, who was convicted of hiring a hitman to murder his own wife so that he could carry on an affair, would have to say about this.
51
Jul 30, 2008 at 07:31 PM yankel Says:
Correct me if I'm wrong is this the same rabbi who found in his heart to "forgive" (on behalf of "all jews") Rome and their Pope for the atrocities they committed during the holocaust, but can't find any רחמנות in his sensitive heart for the orthodox poor jew ?
52
Jul 30, 2008 at 07:45 PM Anonymous Says:
Perhaps some of the posters would care to listen to the second half of the presentation, when Rabbi Goldin appeals to his fellow rabbis that one should not judge an entire denomination of Judaism. That means that you cannot assume that a conservative rabbi is not shomer mitzvot. Don't lump Conservative and Reform together---they are extremely different.
Also, with regard to those posters who claim that Rabbi Lincoln doesn't care about non-frum Jews who sin------ he wasn't asked that question!! It is silly to say that he would approve of bad behavior, even that which comes from his Conservative colleagues.
53
Jul 30, 2008 at 07:58 PM SomeoneinRockland Says:
Anon 4:51 I agree with you 100%.. Eloquently said, well put.
54
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:04 PM Anonymous Says:
We have to train our people,starting in cheder that dina d'malchusa dina,is to be extended,to all civil law of the land,and it is to be respected,and adhered to,just as much as halaka.
So in this respect the conservative Rabbi has a valid point,and we should act upon that,to put it in our hearts,and soul.
55
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:07 PM Anonymous Says:
The VIN editorial mentioned the following about Rabbi Balkany- "and then who was quietly exonerated with little to no fanfare".
With all due respect, Rabbi Balkany was not exonerated of any charges. Rather, the federal government agreed on a plea deal regarding those allegations. A plea deal is not an exoneration.
56
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:09 PM Overnight kigel Says:
to anon at 6:20 "v'hamayvim yavim" I don't see any Yevuma around. Next time check your spelling.
57
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:10 PM Anonymous Says:
Perhaps it is unpleasant to hear such categorical statements, and while i condemn such statements, it is representative of what the less orthodox and secular community thinks about us. Every few weeks there's another story in the media that doesn't paint us in a good light. And, he is right about the orthodox rabbis not speaking out unequivocally against stealing etc.
58
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:18 PM Anonymous Says:
What he said was awful.
And, we all know that Conservative have their own agendas, and basically put their wants and desires before their belief in Hashem.
But, as mad as we may feel at them, instead of bashing them, maybe we could focus on behaving in a way that they don't have anything to bash us about.
59
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:19 PM FrumWithQuestions Says:
I am someone who grew up Conservative and am now Frum. I can give numerous stories of times i was ripped off by Ultra Orthodox both before i was frum and after. Instead of criticizing what Rabbi Lincoln said maybe people should listen to him and correct these problems. If a Jewish person thinks this just imagine what the goyim think. Anyone can go to the New York State prisons and see what this Rabbi is talking about.
60
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:24 PM joel s Says:
i guess for us to make this so called rebbi to like us is to mayby invite the pope to our instituions like he did . guess what their way of yiddeshkiet has failed them miserably. check the jewish history for the last 200 years in the USA
61
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:25 PM Anonymous Says:
It seems the ROOT of the question is, WHY does he have this perception, that, nebbuch, poisons all "charedim" as being untrustworthy??? Is it a call to look into ourselves?
62
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:48 PM reform movement growing!?! Says:
to 4:51--
i'm not sure where you get this information about reform judaism being the fastest growing denomination but i doubt it is true. "ultra-orthodoxy" is for sure beyond any doubt the fastest growing jewish group in all parts of the united states, britain, eretz yisroel, etc. i am skeptical about your claim because i simply am not sure where the reform movement is getting it's members from? certainly reform congregants have far fewer children than frum people, so where are these members coming from? frum communities expand through both massive birth rates and baalei teshuvah who usually leave reform/conserv movements to become more religious. also, the fact of the matter is many reform congregants aren't halachically jewish at all--these people accept paternal lineage! so where is this growth and how many new members are jewish?
63
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:54 PM s.marks Says:
for starters only three hundred illeagles were arrested what about the other twenty million, where are they employed.dont tell me that all those employers are chassidics.they might even be reform or conservative or maybe gentiles.if this was a serious problem the borders would be sealed and a wall between u.s. and mexico would be built.as for this member of the clergy that calls himself rabbi,he is talking because thats how he deals with his guilty feelings he knows that his interpetation of the religion is intellectually dishonest. so to satisfie his emptiness he has to lash out at the real thing
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Jul 30, 2008 at 08:56 PM Anonymous Says:
WOW The not so Chasidim can be really hatful… are all non Chasidim this way???
65
Jul 30, 2008 at 08:58 PM joel s Says:
i just watched him on u tube he sounds like such an elitist snob fffecccch!!!
66
Jul 30, 2008 at 09:00 PM Avrohom Abba Says:
Hey Lincoln!
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones1
This "rabbi" wopuld scream bloody murder if someone said that most African Americans are thieves!
Yet, he feels justified to make hos blanket statement about a sect of Jews?
Go speak loshon hora to the mirror (actually it's richilus [lies]) rabbi, before you condemn others.
Now look at me rabbi and repeat after mne, "Kaf Zechoos." Thererabbi, now was that very hard to say?
it means, Give people the benefit of doubt. Oh yeah, toyou that means, IGve the benefit of the doubt to tens of thousands you so easily insulted and accused.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 09:01 PM s.marks Says:
by the way which shaver does he use he has such a nice clean face is it a razor ? is his fancy suit shatness free .
68
Jul 30, 2008 at 09:16 PM Anonymous Says:
The truth sure hurts.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 09:18 PM Anonymous Says:
why argue when we can observe peoples actions when there is an ethical choice?
this is easily done by watching how people drive.
so the question becomes 'is a claim of being shomer shabbos/negiah/etc a predictor of different ethical decision making in an observed set of jewish drivers'
would make a fine project for yu kids.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 09:28 PM anonymous Says:
i don't even think that reform rabbi had a yarmulke on! i've heard stories before that there was a time in the reform movement that if you went into a shul with a yarmulke someone would approach you and say "excuse me sir, could you please remove your hat"
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Jul 30, 2008 at 09:56 PM Anonymous Says:
4:51 - Evin if your claim that in sheer numbers the reform population exceeds the orthodox population were correct, which I doubt, your underlying definition of who is a jew is incorrect therefore the reform population is growing in numbers but not in jews.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 09:58 PM Anonymous Says:
This "rabbi" should be put in harem. How dare he publicly malign jews or anyone for that matter. Sinnis hinim.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 10:01 PM Anonymous Says:
Funny I can't imagine one of the litvish or chadishe gedolim making the same comments about conservative/reform jews. To the contrary, frum yidden welcome our conservatice/reform fellow jews with open arms and are always willing to help them advance in their yiddishkeit.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 10:09 PM Anonymous Says:
To Anonymous 10:01--
I went to yeshiva and heard the rabbis say many disparaging remarks about conservative or reform Jews, never any positive ones.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 10:35 PM jj Says:
Anonymous Says:
Funny I can't imagine one of the litvish or chadishe gedolim making the same comments about conservative/reform jews. To the contrary, frum yidden welcome our conservatice/reform fellow jews with open arms and are always willing to help them advance in their yiddishkeit.
07-30-2008 - 10:01 PM
========================================
What would you do if i showed you jewish news papers such as the yated specifically written by its owner pinny how he doesnt fail to bash the conservatives reform as well as the modern orthodox
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Jul 30, 2008 at 10:39 PM yitzy Says:
anonymous Says:
i don't even think that reform rabbi had a yarmulke on! i've heard stories before that there was a time in the reform movement that if you went into a shul with a yarmulke someone would approach you and say "excuse me sir, could you please remove your hat"
07-30-2008 - 9:28 PM
==============================================
Can you please back up your story with the rabbis name , name of shul and dates for this supposed story?
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Jul 30, 2008 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:
Shonoh Upireish Koshoh Miculom!!
Lincoln attended Gateshaead yeshiva in the 60s but proved totally incapable of understanding anything!
Being unable to find an orthodox shool in england who would employ him he moved to america and'recast' himself as a conservative rabbi
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Jul 30, 2008 at 10:43 PM FrumWithQuestions Says:
It seems that in all these comments everyone is just attacking this Rabbi rather then adressing this issue which was brought up. Based on the comments it also appears that people are denying what he says is actually true. Denying the truth and attacking this Rabbi only add to the venom they have when you continue to act and comment like this
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Jul 30, 2008 at 10:58 PM YY ben Y Says:
Many years ago, I heard an almost identical negative comment about chareidim from a Rabbi Dreyfus, a Reform rabbi. It was made at a round table discussion between this person, a conservative rabbi and Rabbi Riskin, representing the Orthodox. R. Riskin replied to him (to paraphrase), "I suspect that your name Dreyfus was not always that, but must have been changed. Given your attitude, I suspect that you should be better named "rabbi Treyfus". A great put down!
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Jul 30, 2008 at 11:11 PM Anonymous Says:
Balkany, defending us? PUHLEASE!!! He was on the cover of newspapers re a scandal.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 11:14 PM FluffyDan Says:
When I was a kid growing up in Washington DC, we went to our cousins bar mitzvah in the reform temple. as we took our seats an usher asked us to please remove our kippot. BTW, the service was on sunday, because they didn't hold any on Shabbat.
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Jul 30, 2008 at 11:42 PM Anonymous Says:
What do you want from a Kufir BiEkar RCH"L -
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Jul 30, 2008 at 11:50 PM Anonymous Says:
I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU ARE ALL KVETCHING HE IS OLD AND HIS CHILDREN IF HE HAS ANY ARE PROBALLY GOYIM WE WON'T HAVE TO HEAR FROM THIS OLD GROUCH OR HIS FAMILY FOR TO MUCH LONGER UNLESS YOU SELL CHRISTMAS TREE'S FOR A LIVING
84
Jul 31, 2008 at 12:09 AM Anonymous Says:
During these 3 weeks let's a be just Jews...because ultimately we all are counted
85
Jul 31, 2008 at 12:27 AM Anonymous Says:
The rabbi who was convicted of hiring a hit man happened to be Reform. See "The Rabbi and the Hit Man: A True Tale of Murder, Passion, and Shattered Faith" by Arthur J. Magida (Paperback - May 11, 2004)
86
Jul 31, 2008 at 12:37 AM cholesterol Says:
whats the difference between reform and gentiles
87
Jul 31, 2008 at 01:06 AM Anonymous Says:
Anonyymous, first comment,
It is very sad to hear people still clamoring for blood because Rubashkin.... Because Rubashkin.... knowingly hired minors? He hasn't been charged. knowingly hired illegals? He hasn't been charged. Abused workers? He hasn't been charged. Drugs and weapons? nobodys been charged. Underpaid workers? he hasn't been charged. So exactly what did Rubashkin do? He hired illegals that presented paperwork like the 1300 illegals arrested at swift beef and pork in Marshalltown Iowa on December 12, 2006 by the same ICE agents that raided agri. That's not a crime. This conservative anti-semite demands punishment for the crime that Rubashkin has not been charged with.
When Reform Rabbi Fred J. Neulander of M'kor Shalom, the largest reform temple in southern New Jersey, was charged (and convicted) for killing his wife while he was having an affair with a local radio hostess, what did Lincoln have to say? Perhaps we should talk about child abuse? Cantor Phillip Friedman? Cantor Howard Nevison? Cantor Joel Gordon? Rabbi Jerrold Martin Levy? These are not chasidic or orthodox Jews. Where was Lincoln when Maryland reform Rabbi David Kaye was nabbed on national TV on dateline's "to catch a predator" trying to set up a date with a 13 year old boy?
______________________
Anon 4:16
"The truth hurts.";"This is good, important, and tragic Mussar."
------------
Taking mussar from a hypocrite, a mechallel Shabbos bifarsya, an oichel navailos and traifos, a boiyel needos, is more tragic than any of the unproven allegations against Rubashkin. On Judgement day, I'd rather be hanging on to Rubashkin's coattails than Mr. Lincoln's.
______________________________
Anon 4:51,
I don't blame you for posting anonymously. If I put up the drivel that you did I would be embarassed to put my name on it to. Let's start with the facts. The ultra orthodox are in fact in the fastest growing segment of the Jewish community. This is due to a higher birthrate, higher retention, kiruv, ba'alei tshiva, etc. The reform movement's active membership is 80% woman. The move to equal the sexes in the house of worship has disenfranchised men and forced them out of their traditional roles in Judaism. Despite the widespread attempts to include non Jewish spouses and family members in congregational programs, reform membership is shrinking. There is a misnomer that a non practing Jew is a reform Jew. That is incorrect. He is unaffiliated. If a person pays membership to a reform congregation he is a reform Jew. That is the only requirement to be a reform Jew. If one does not pay membership he is unafilliated. However the unafilliated population is also not growing. They either assimilate and become goyim gameerim, or they return to the fold. Most do not remain in no man's land for mor than two or three generations. Just as most conservative and
reform Jews cannot show 2 or 3 generations of active participants.
-----------
"Conservative Judaism is a halakhic movement. You may not agree with their poskening, but nonetheless, they rely firmly on the halakhic process to arrive at all institutional positions."
Are you truly so ignorant that you spout this drivel with a straight face? On which "halachic" process did conservative Rabbis rely on to drive a car on shabbos chutz l'tchum to attend shul? Forget starting and driving the car, is there a discussion to minimize chillul shabbos like pulling the fuse for the courtesy lights? which is an incandescent light which is aish d'oiraisa?
On which halachic process did they rely on to allow each synagogue to make their own decisions on homosexuality. a clear verse in the torah that labels such conduct an abomination worthy of capital punishment. Which halachic process did they rely on when deciding that a person who says they are Jew in name only can convert to being a Jew without any obligation.
"Reform Judaism is post-halakhic -- meaning that halakha informs decisionmaking but does not have an overriding vote"; & "You may disagree, but to suggest that one is a goy if they have a different sort of relationship to halakha than we had in 19th century Poland is an insult to some of our tradition's greatest tzadikim."
A Jew that knowingly rejects halacha as stated in Shulchan Oruch is a guy gamur as taught by our traditions greatest tzaddikim. In this case, an unafiliated Jew is far better off than a reform or conservative Jew. Having been taught nothing, and knowing nothing, he is a tinuk shenishba and not liable. A child that goes to a conservative day school and learns that G-d gane the torah on Mt Sinai and told the Jews to watch the Sabbath and keep it holy... but that doesn't apply today. That G-d said these animals you may eat and those you may not, but that doesn't apply today, etc., are much worse off. Those that take your position in fact insult halachah, democracy, and every legitmate legal system. I read a piece where a reform rabbi said "Maimonides was a Rabbi and says such and such, and I'm a rabbi and I say the opposite." There is a fundamental difference this rabbi does not realize. Nothing that maimonides says was his own opinion. His view was rooted in the Babylonian and Jerusalem talmuds and reasoning based on what was passed down from generation to generation from sinai. The conservative and reform "halachic" process that involves a vote on what the halacha should be is a ruse that is the greatest affront to democracy and legitmate legal systems that could be. Assuming ALL conservative rabbis take part in this voting process and the vote is unanimous. Is that democratic? Who elected them? Assuming that all Conservative jews took part in the vote, are they the majority of Jews that decide what laws are binding on all Jews even those that did not ask to be represented by these people. An anology would be having 10 men vote unaminously that rape should be legal. Even if these 10 men were elected by all men in the world, they are not representing the women who they seek to subjegate, who did not elect them, who had no say in the matter. Secondly the majority vote is an insult to the legal system. In court, the lawyers do not say this case says such and such lets vote on it. The lawyer says this decision is similar to this case and the legal precedent has always been interpreted as such. Halacha is the same. The halacha about how when a microwave oven can be used is based on the halachac precedent as applied to the electric oven and plastic material, which in turn is based on the halachic precedent as applied to the gas stove, which is based on the halachic precedent of the wood stove which is based on the tanur and kirayim in the mishnah. There is no such thing as a vote on halacha out of thin air. While conservative judaism claims to base itself on the lenient opinions in shulchan oruch, even a non critical review of practices (What was that about mikvah?) shows that there is no connection between shulchan oruch and conservative Judaism. Kudos on the most disingenious post on subject full of disingenious post.
88
Jul 31, 2008 at 01:31 AM Anonymous Says:
i should add that hasidim were put under herem by the vilna gaon so its key to not confuse hasids with traditional yidden
89
Jul 31, 2008 at 01:35 AM yoely from satmer Says:
To miri kal:....
What did this rabbi say wrong?
To say that orthodox people as a whole are not behaving properly is pure "racist". We all know that we must behave and be better. However, most orthodox people are correct and obay the rule of law. Just open the newspapers everyday and see that people of all kind/colors are steeling.
To choose a community of a miilion orthodox jews and stamp them with this is wrong. Amagin sharpton would say this, what would you say then.
I live in BP and most people I deal with and I know are well behaved people.
Go to central booking or rykers island for a day and then we can talk. 99.9% are non-orthodox jews. That's why when it does happen once in while, the media makes sure to blow up the news.
Its not "who" said it. Its "what" he said.
90
Jul 31, 2008 at 01:40 AM ryan Says:
The fact is that intermarriage and low birth rates will soon make reform and conservative judaism almost extinct with the 80% non orthodox figure becoming 80% orthodox in 30-40 years.
Rabbi Lincoln is wrong to catergorize all Ultra religous jews in one basket. Unfortunately, Goyim and the Forward type jews like Rabbi Lincoln and his dying flock exacerbate any illegal occurrence
by Frum yidden. Regardless, we have to teach our children more business ethics and respect for all our fellow Jews. I learned only in Chareidish Yeshivas and can testify that while we were taught
not to engage in religous dialouge or mingle with our Reform and Conservative yidden, Never did I have hear including from my chassidic parents one bad word about these non-observent jews. My parents and rebeeim always taught us that they are 100% jews and must be respected as such and my grandchildren are taught the same. Most conservative and reform jews (i have experienced all over wall st and Florida) despise Chassidic "dirty looking Jews".
At 61 years old , I have experienced this for over 50 years wherever I went including Israel. As
one Israeli told me (and shared feelings by most conservative and reform Jews) "if I had a choice to shoot an Arab or a Chareidi Jew , I would kill the Jew in a second!". Most of Rabbi Lincolns flock support that statement and no denying by Rabbi Lincoln holds water.
91
Jul 31, 2008 at 01:48 AM anonymous Says:
As reader of vosizneias.com, I appreciatet the responses -
I believe keeping to the path of Judaism is our way - and keeping from getting off our path the challenge!
And knowing the difference.
92
Jul 31, 2008 at 07:27 AM Fed Up Reform Jew Says:
Conservative & Reform Jews don't hold themselves out as morally superior (aka holier-than-thou) the way that Hasidim do. We have our scandals too, but we already know that our Rabbis aren't gods, they're fallible human beings whose teachings inform our lives, but certainly do not dictate what we wear, live, eat, or with whom we may sleep.
Want us to stop criticizing Rubashkin so much? Then stop pretending that Hasidim and all of you right-wing groups have the exclusive right to morality!
93
Jul 31, 2008 at 07:35 AM LES Kid Says:
Rabbi Lincoln is musmach of Gateshead so he knows the system from the inside out. That's why his statement is so damaging.
94
Jul 31, 2008 at 08:28 AM ANONYMOUS Says:
Rabbi Milton Balkany is the moral arbitor of morality??? He is 'frightened by what I hear'?
This was a tremendous Chillul Hashen that was created by Rubashkin and continues to grow. I have yet to hear what the worthy rabbi has to say about that.
95
Jul 31, 2008 at 08:28 AM chaim Says:
as a frum person myself,unfortunately i have to agree with him 100%.it is an undeniable fact,that a large percentage of chareidi jews,have asolutely no regard for secular law
and laws of the land
the halacha of 'dinah demalchuse dinah'is completely ignored and violated,
the reason this statement by rabbi lincoln,has caused such a sorm,is because deep down we all nknow how right he is
96
Jul 31, 2008 at 08:36 AM Anonymous Says:
"Reform" Judaism is a joke and so is "Conservative" Judaism. But that does not excuse Chillul HaShem by frum Jews. We can see from this forum and from other terrible things that have occurred in the frum community in recent years, the devastating impact of Chillul Hashem. You can read "Off the Derech", a book about the thousands now leaving Torah true Yiddishkeit and see what Chillul Hashem leads to.
97
Jul 31, 2008 at 08:48 AM Anonymous Says:
The leading Conservative Rabbi in my town is a runs a daily minyan, tefillin and all, is shomer shabbos (a walker- NOT driver), kosher and has a mikvah -built under strict Orthodox supervision. So don't paint them with a broad brush either
98
Jul 31, 2008 at 09:42 AM Yossele Says:
Take his statement and replace "orthodox Jew" with "Black"...
and Presto! You have a bigot!
99
Jul 31, 2008 at 09:57 AM murray Says:
Don't worry about it..the conservative and reform movements are (morally) bankrupt- this chatter is their death knell. They won't be around in the near future, as they are pointless,sinking membership, intermarriage, small # of offspring..........yep, stick a fork in them, they're done!
100
Jul 31, 2008 at 10:07 AM Anonymous Says:
To Cholesterol who asked waht the difference is between a reform jew and a gentile.
One is your fellow jew and the other is not.
101
Jul 31, 2008 at 10:37 AM Ben Waxman Says:
Rav Balkany is hardly the one to complain about remarks made about cheating frum Jews. He plea bargained to keep from spending several years in the federal pen, on multiple fraud charges.
102
Jul 31, 2008 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:
As an ultra othodox jew we learned that we have to keep the law of the land we live in unles it contradics with the jewish law. When we see the head of the country we live in we make a bracha for his well being. In the ultra jewish communities there are less law breakers. However, the media who are moslty reformed jews or jew haters always pump us any news concerning orthodox jews. When it doesn't even prove to be correct they will not take back their words and give the correct story, That is not news. You are all correct. The orthodox jew has to watch every step he takes and behave in most correct way because there are always people watching us and as soon as we do something wrong intentionaly or unintentionaly it becomes new. Eisav will always hate Yaakov. And jew hating jews are even worse.
103
Jul 31, 2008 at 11:18 AM Anonymous Says:
From Wikipedia:
His father in law is Rabbi Aaron Rubashkin the founder of Agriprocessors. His brother-in-law, Rabbi Moshe Rubashkin is a member of the board of the Community Council in Crown Heights. Another brother-in-law Rabbi Sholom Rubashkin is the current CEO of AgriProcessors.
104
Jul 31, 2008 at 11:32 AM Hesh Says:
What else would you expect from a Modern Orthodox Rabbi?! As long as you love Israel, everything else is hunkey dori!
105
Jul 31, 2008 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:
why is Rabbi Balkany the only one calling this rabbi out for what he said? this guy is a nut and he should be showna s a nut to everyone for what he said.
106
Jul 31, 2008 at 01:05 PM Anonymous Says:
It is up to people who dress the part, to act the part. If you are going to be claiming by your dress mode that you are on a higher level, it is your responsibility to act that way as well. Even if you would like to say that crime is more rampant in non frum circles, just one crime will make it to the front page when commited by an Orthodox Jew. It's your job to make sure that never happens.
107
Jul 31, 2008 at 01:56 PM DD Says:
To Ben Waxman
2 wrongs dont make Mr. Liclon right
108
Jul 31, 2008 at 07:25 PM anonymous Says:
Anonymous Says:
why is Rabbi Balkany the only one calling this rabbi out for what he said? this guy is a nut and he should be showna s a nut to everyone for what he said.
07-31-2008 - 12:34 PM
-------------------------
How many Rabbi's issue their own press releases?
109
Jul 31, 2008 at 11:54 PM Ben Waxman Says:
"and then who was quietly exonerated with little to no fanfare, "
exonerated my foot. He pled guilty.