New York – In this past week conservative Rabbi David Lincoln- Park Ave Synagogue, was on the Jewish TV Channel in a round table discussion with many rabbis including one orthodox rabbi and the topic was Kashrut and the Rubashkin scandal
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In a spiteful harsh attack Rabbi Lincoln said: I think there is a general feeling that in the Orthodox community, many Orthodox communities, especially in the more Chareidi, more extreme Orthodox communities, there is more concern for the strict rules of Halacha – of how you cut the animals throats or how you examine the lungs and they are not concerned about whether you are stealing or whatever or going into court to perjure themselves.
There is a general feeling- I mean I often say that if I was if I was going to court or to do a business deal, it is a terrible thing to say, would I go to a chusid in Monsey or somewhere or would I go to one Rabbi Ammiel’s (reform) congregants. Who can I trust more to tell the truth in the court and everything?
See below youtube Video
U/D
After VIN News reported the above story, it has caused a major firestorm by many in the orthodox community, Rabbi Milton Balkany, a leading Orthodox rabbi, Jewish community leader, educator and political activist who has been in the center of many issues within the Jewish community, issued the below statement , and requested for more than a simple apology from Rabbi David Linclon.
I am appalled at the divisive statements on Orthodoxy by a colleague, Rabbi David Lincoln leader of the Park Avenue Synagogue. said rabbi Balkany.
“myself and Rabbi Lincoln once shared a dais at President Ronald Reagan’s inauguration, now i am frightened at what I hear”.
“By saying that as he did, he is as bad as he claims all of Orthodoxy is. By wantonly stating that Hasidim, or ‘extreme orthodox’ Jews all commit crime or allow it to happen, or to suggest that we hold common law to be unimportant as a rule, a way of life, is nearing the kind of hatred gentile nations have committed against Jews in some of the worst human atrocities throughout the centuries.” Rabbi Balkany said.
Balkany further stated, “When I saw Rabbi Lincoln say that, I could do little but gasp at the simplistically narrow view of a man who leads such an influential congregation, and how he may be influencing Jews against other Jews… I am not certain a simple apology would suffice, for the sentiment runs deeper than any empty apology can contain.”
As someone who had been immersed in public controversy and allegations of illegal and even criminal behavior, who had been ostracized in the media and in public, and then who was quietly exonerated with little to no fanfare, Rabbi Balkany knows the power of hateful words. He said, “I believe it is my duty to condemn such words that bitterly label an entire people out of convenience in the hope of grabbing a headline.”
I am an Orthodox Jew and there is some truth to his words. There is unfortunately a tendency among the “ultra-orthodox” (a term that is rather ridiculous) to focus excessively on bein adam laMakom while bein adam lachaveiro is given less consideration. This is not how it is supposed to be! V’ohavto l’rayacha kamocha is supposed to be a guiding principle in everything we do. If only it actually was.
Can someone please tell me what Rabbi Lincoln said that is incorrect?
Just because he is reform, does not mean he is wrong in this case.
I hate to say it, but he has a point. Many Frum, Erliche, Yidden are extremely Makpid about Halacha, but treat secular law as something to be followed only if you think you’ll get caught. The “social compact” of general society is not something that they see as applying to themselves, even when there’s a good reason for the law in question.
Stam a Yid
I HAVE TO ASK AGAIN SINCE NO ONE WILL ANSWER –
WHAT DID RABBI LINCOLN SAY THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT??
The truth hurts. This is sad commentary. During the three weeks, we should all think about our interactions,both business and non-business, both between frum and non-frum, and think whether we are making a kiddush hashem or chas v’shalom the opposite? Are we causing the flames of sinah to arise? This is good, important, and tragic Mussar.
Sad how many people (see above comments) are automatically going into the denial mode, instead of doing some deep introspection into why frum people are more and more frequently being seen by the non-frum and the non-Jews as crooks, liars, and cheats. We frum peple know that the crooks are a small minority, but we must do something about the public perception that we’re all like that. In the same way that one chassid with long peyos going into a dirty movie is more visible than a hundred reform Jews, and thus a greater chilul Hashem, one obvious frummie on the front page of the Post is a major chilul Hashem, and condemns us all to be suspected of being like him, instead of being respected as the tzelem Elokim. Rabbosai, let’s put “being ehrlich” back into the curriculum as a priority!
This is what Rubashkin did. Complete Chullul Hashem.
I do not hold from any conservative or reform rabbi. Because they deny the oral halachos, they can not be trusted at all represent any other Jew. Look how they demean frum Jews. If they do it, then how much more do the goyim do it, in private and in public.
these rabbis are all jealous because as their congregations shrink and shrink, hasidic and other frum congregrations are exploding. so because they no leg to stand on regarding kashrus or any other halachic matter they have resorted to attacking frum jews on their moral and ethical values! it’s pathetic! these rabbis and their “judaism” have led to the self-destruction of so many yidden here in america. promoting intermarriage isn’t a moral issue?
Once again someone proves the point that “the biggest anti-semites are Jews”. Unfortunately the only way that the Reform and Conservative Jews can justify thier way of life is by finding something wrong with the Orthodox. While the actions alleged at Rubashkin (if true) are certainly not in the spirit of Halachah or Yiddishkeit, it is certainly not a reflection on the average Orthodox Jew, nor the average Chusid.
BS”D
This man needs to be treated as the Black community would treat a Klansman who opened his dirty mouth, except that as a Yid he can do tshuva.
we need to point out how krum these people are for pointing out short comings in other yiddin. these low lifes who don’t even ATTEMPT to keep torah u’mitzvos. I don’t see them as tinuk she’nishba as the live in the NY area and they KNOW what shomer shabbos is etc.
Hey mr ‘rabbi’ show me a second, third, or even fourth generation authentic yid from your flock and I will proclaim it as a miracle. most of them are not even HALACHIKLY Jewish.
A YID: I agree but this is clearly more then sophomoric jealousy but obvious shinas chanim. Notice he is upset about the hiring of illegal workers. Even if Rubashkin was complicit in hiring illegals which I might add has NOT been proven in ANY COURT OF LAW that has NOTHING to do with Rubashkin hecsher.
I think Jews should invest in a program that trains monkeys to properly slaughter the chickens at Rubashkin. That would really get the PETA people upset. This is a joke of course but this is also the point. As ludicrous as this sounds, so much more so is it ridiculous to say Rubashkin isnt Kosher. If you look at the Rusbashkin case between the lines, you will find that it is nothing more then an attack on Kashrus. I would be curious if this conservative Rabbi is a member of PETA himself and also a vegetarian.
what rubashkin did was far from illegal and i happen to know as i was there as it was going on i was in postville and i could tell u its far from black and white and also there was alot of not true things said to be going on that anyone with half a brain would know was a lie
the fact that the conservitive and reform attack the orthodox is just a show of their ignorance of the situation and their lack of self esteem i truly feel bad for them and i hope one day they will come to their senses
Does this Rabbi want me to compile a list of all conservative and reform ganovim and murderers? I’m not saying chas vesholim that we don’t have to obey the Torah and the laws of the land. But them? They’re the ones to trust? They’re not worth a shmek tabik – in my eyes (nose).
It’s A known fact that the Conservative Rabbis are trying to grab a piece of the BILLION dollar kashrus industry, they finnaly have somthing to stand on, and as long we stupid frum people are gonna play in to it they will keep trying…KASHRUS BELONGS TO FRUM PEOLPLE WHO DON’T PICK AND JUST OUT OF THE TORAH…
The statement by the conservative rabbi is not troubling. What is troubling is the so-called orthodox rabbi who said through it nodding and smiling instead of calling this fellow for what he is – a biggot.
I met Lincoln, recently. He’s a ‘nice’ guy, possibly more conservedox than conservative. agav, regarding his comment:I met a successful Jewish business, not oryhodox but definitely traditional. He told me about a business transaction he was about to close with a frum/chassidish guy. When he heard the frum guy mutter b’li neder’ under his breath, he pulled out. Though anicdotal, this in line with the popular trend in the frum community..focus on the letter of the law, not the spirit.
just to shed light on all this!
There was once a “Datcher” (reform or conserv)Yid that asked one of our Ultra Orthodox (chassidish) rabbis; we both have our few mitzvahs that we each feel we are better at so what makes you think that yours are better than ours, we (datcher) maybe arent so makpid on “teharis Hamishpocha”, Shabbos and kashrus, but we are 100% strict on sheker (lies), loshon hora, Kibbud Av etc. why do you (chasidim and litvish etc.) think you are better than us.
the Tzadik answered him (and this is a real great lesson) We (orthodox) are makpid on Shabbos Teharis Hamishpocha an Kashrus so this Makes us a YID (jew)but as you say we are not a good yid if we lie etc. but you because you are oiver on these things you are not even a yid so with your good behavior of kibud Av and Sheker you are a good goy! a well mannered animal.
vdie lehovin
Who was the orthodox rabbi in the round table discussion?
MILCHOMO LASHEM LEMOLEK.
Actually Lincoln studied in Gateshead, his roots 9 partially) Litvhsh. Probably the last name was changed a generation or two back. As far as private life, he’s probably got less to hide than you.
“Who was the orthodox rabbi in the round table discussion?
Rabbi Shmuel Goldin, Englewood NJ, Ahavat Torah
You wanted to know what mr lincoln said that was incorrect?
there is no proof yet of all the charges brought against rubashkin. we already know this was brought on by the unions and pita yemach sh’mom.
we cannot go and help everyone else smear fellow yiddin. what about SIMPLE halochos of loshon hora & rLchilos???
Also, as my Rosh Yeshiva has been known to say, “All reform & conservative rabbis should be sued for malpractice!”
I just sent Rabbi Lincoln a letter asking him if he has clear evidence that chasidim in general are unlawful. I asked him if Ivan Boesky, Michael Milliken, and Eliot Spitzer were chasidim. I also asked him if he got his data from Protocols of Zion.
ITS HIGH TIME THAT ALL THE ORTHODOX COME TOGETHER AND FIGHT THESE frauds the CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT.
The crooks is a human phenomenon which exist within the Conservative phoneys as in all human groups.
If the Frumeh don’t expose the deceptive misrepresentation of the Conservatives as a viable brand of Judaism we can expect them to become more and more aggressive.
Conservative movement is facing extinction that’s a fact – they have no idea what they represent and neither does any one else.
ITS ABOUT TIME THAT FRUMEH YIDDEN STAND AND TELL THE WORLD that “rabbis” who are mechalel shabbos don’t put on teffilin and don’t keep Taharas hamishpoch ARE FRAUDS.
They represent nothing else but their desire to make money and fraudulently and deceptively organize wealthy Jews for their own agendas and power.
let them all go like the Rambam says — about minim and apikursim to where they belong…..
He is NO ABRAHAM LINCOLN. He’s not even worth a penny. Der lincoln hut zich farshtinken.
time to chicken out and let’s go to the next topic.leave the chickens alone.
UNFORTOUNATLEY THERE IS TRUTH TO THIS RABBIS WORDS WE FRUMME YIDDEN ARE HELD (AND RIGHTFULLY SO)TO A HIGHER STANDARD WE WHO ARE CHAREDI AND CARRY THE BANNER OF TORAH HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL OF CHILLUL HASHEM AND THAT GOES FOR ALL PARTS OF THE TORAH EQUALLY ALL 4 CHALOKIM OF THE SHULCHUN ARUCH KASHRUTH=YOREHDEA/CHOSEHN MISHPUT=DINE MOMONUS/EVEN EZER=INYUNEE ARAYOS ETC
ITS OBVIOUS THAT AS MENTIONED BY THE FRUM RAV YOU CANT PAINT A WHOLE SEGMENT OF PEOPLE DUE TO A FEW ROTTON APPLES
BUT THEIR IS A REASON FOR WHY THIS CONCERVATIVE RABBI SAID WHAT HE DID AS WELL AS WHY THE NEWS WILL HAVE A FIELD DAY WHEN A FRUM/CHASIDIC JEW IS INVOLVED “BECAUSE ITS A GIVEN THAT A (FRUM/CHASIDIC)JEW SHOULD ACT BETTER AND IS HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD ABOVE THE USAUL CRIMINAL ELEMENTS WE FIND IN OUR PRESENT DAY SOCIETY
Conservative Judaism is a halakhic movement. You may not agree with their poskening, but nonetheless, they rely firmly on the halakhic process to arrive at all institutional positions.
Reform Judaism is post-halakhic — meaning that halakha informs decisionmaking but does not have an overriding vote — which is a position the movement arrived at through a process of halakhic and philosophic reasoning. You may disagree, but to suggest that one is a goy if they have a different sort of relationship to halakha than we had in 19th century Poland is an insult to some of our tradition’s greatest tzadikim.
Furthermore, it is not Orthodoxy, but Reform Judaism which is the fastest growing Jewish movement in the world. I hate to break it to you, but 80% of Jews worldwide are non-Orthodox and many of them are actively engaged in the Jewish community, whether as Reform, Conservative, or unaffiliated Jews. If anyone is not representative of the larger Jewish community, it is the haredim, who live cloistered, insular lives disconnected from the rest of Jews worldwide.
And while it’s true, that the haredi community loves to reproduce, the fact is, if it weren’t for non-haredim going to college, getting jobs, serving in the military and public office and paying taxes, the haredim would disappear overnight, unable to sustain their lifestyles. Who cuts your kollel checks? The unemployed pasty faced bochurim? As if. The money often comes from the non-religious, who think they’re doing teshuva with their checkbooks.
Worse yet, these same disconnected haredi Jews — many of whom are so bigoted against their fellow Jews, whom they see as goyim, that they won’t even stop to have a conversation with them — cast more aspersions and lob more insults as their non-haredi counterparts than the insults ever go in the opposite direction. So much for chesed, for tzedek, for derech eretz, for ahavas yisroel, for kvod briyot — all these things haredim are supposed to be living exemplars and beacons of in the world.
The greater irony is that these same haredim who attack non-haredi Jews for not being halakhic, and who pride themselves on their knowledge of and commitment to halakha are constantly being exposed as frauds, hypocrites and criminals — embezzling money, exploiting workers, sexually assaulting children…
The fact is that the haredim don’t hold a monopoly on morality, ethics, avodas hashem, or ahavas yisroel. They’re just as flawed and shameful as the rest of us. We are all worthless failures in the eyes of hakadosh barachu. And to be sure, because you all are supposed to know better, He’s going to be a LOT harder on you.
what did he say wrong?
blah blah blah who cares what Rabbi ( a shame to call him Rabbi who made him a Rabbi what qulifications dose he have for a Rabbi) Lincoln said, the fact that he isnt a shomer torah and mitzvos he cant tell from right to wrong and BTW “das torah hepech das bal-habies” if you know what that means Mr. Lincoln and second what wrong did Rubashkin do by leting these people work what dose this have to do with torah or yidiskiet
What he said is sad, but true. Miri Kal, you are right…
Anon 4:51… i dont know what Conservative Judaism is all about but i can tell you that a jew has no right to pick what he or she likes and what not to say we dont beleave in that,we have a torah from har sini that tells us how to live dose not mater how fast your people are grewing will stay strong and wait for Mashiach now
As several commentors already pointed out, we in the frum community have a problem. It is hard to imagine that any of us has not once heard the exact same words come out of the mouth of one of our fellow frum yidden (if not our own mouths) and not understand on some level that as a community we have some cheshbon hanfesh to make.
Yes, there is little doubt that coming from a conservative “Rabbi”, it stinks and is a chilul Hashem.
But once that has been said, shouldn’t we then ask ourselves whether it is true?
Shouldn’t we ask ourselves if we ever say things in front of our children that sugeest that secular law is the product of goyim and needs to be tolerated at best and subverted at worst?
Shouln’t we ask ourselves what can we do and what message can we impart to our children in order to see to it that this perception about the frum community goes away?
Lastly, it is probably true that the focus on corrupt behavior among the frum is probably disproportiate to its occurence and is likely highlighted only becasue of the stark contrast it provides to the outwardly religious lifestyle we display. As such we can easily indulge the claim that we are subjected to a double standard.
Be that as it may, aren’t we in fact obligated to subject ourselves to a higher standard?
Something to think about as we apporach another Tisha B’Av without the Bais Hamikdash. Let’s remember what the gemara says about a generation that does not see the rebuilding of the BH.
Kol Tuv
Miri Kal:
You asked:
I HAVE TO ASK AGAIN SINCE NO ONE WILL ANSWER –
WHAT DID RABBI LINCOLN SAY THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT??
A: the torah has 613 mitzvos & 7 d’rabanan. Don’t pick or choose any single one (that you don’t keep, by the way) and harp on other pepoles wrong doings. wether they are halacha’ik or unlawful!
To All, AND MiriKal re-read, Anonymous 4:14pm Says:
just to shed light on all this!
this rabbi was unfair in his comments
This Lincoln guy was raised frum, and went off the deep end & became a conservative (rabbi). so it’s only natural for him to be antagonistic. He comes from a family of distinguished Rabbonim in England.
To Critic and others,
Just because they don’t follow the Torah doesn’t excuse the behavior of the ones who should know better. If the frum is representative of the “Light Onto The Nations”, we are viewed to have higher standards. Clearly recent events have shown those representatives are behaving on a substandard level.
Unfortunately, he’s right and I wouldn’t feel comfortable dealing with a frummer yid in many cases without adequate legal protection, just as much as anyone else, if not more so.
It was a conservative rabbi that is now in jail for hiring a hit-man to kill his wife. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
The heads of major investment funds that defrauded millions were Conservative jews. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
It was a conservative Rabbi that had a mistress and promised her the world and then reneged. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
It was a conservative Rabbi/Shul that was caught with fake DOT parking permits. Where was Rabbi Lincoln then??
The list goes on and on, but of course who’s counting.
TRUE Yiddishkeit comes from the heart. It has nothing to do with where you daven,how you dress, or who your rabbi is. There are crooks everywhere and they will all be punished…whether they wear a shtreimel or no yarmulka.
What he said wrong was simply what the frum rabbi said he said – don’t bashmutz an entire community because of a few people
Rabbi Balkany responds?? what a joke. This Balkany is a perfect example of what Rabbi Linclon is talking about, v’hamayvim yavim!
the problem with what mr. lincoln said is he has a blatant agenda. he isn’t looking for truth at all, he is looking for excuses to bash frum jews, hasidim in particular (though probably anyone who wears any kind of black hat). do his claims have truth to them? of course they do! often frum jews may disregard secular law completely and it can be a problem. but for these self-righteous conservative “rabbis” to bash all frum jews because of a few bad apples is wrong. is there a higher proportion of frum criminals than non-frum criminals? probably not. any God-fearing person will naturally be more moral and more ethical than someone who doesn’t believe in God at all. the problem is if any frum jew who commits any crime makes a Chillul Hashem for ALL frum jews, whereas any non-frum jew’s actions doesn’t reflect his entire community because he doesn’t DRESS like he’s part of any community at all (i’d be hesitant to call conservative or reforms jews a “community” though).
The backround of this whole issue is the multi- million dollar kashrus industry.
For Years, the conservative and reform movements could only stand by and watch as the orthodox controlled the growing kashrus industry.
Now they smell blood and and trying to taint the orthodox movement and then move onto thier goal of gaining a toehold into the industry.
Thank you Rabbi Balkany for Standing firm in defense of greater orthodoxy.
In fact, much of the negotiations with the conservative movemnt over this kashrus issue has been done behind the scenes. They are growing more and more fustrated. (hence their desperation).
Let Rabbi Lincoln know how u feel EMAIL HIM
[email protected]
I wonder what haughty holier-than-thou Lincolns colleague the disgraced conservative clergyman “rabbi” from Cherry Hill, NJ, who was convicted of hiring a hitman to murder his own wife so that he could carry on an affair, would have to say about this.
Correct me if I’m wrong is this the same rabbi who found in his heart to “forgive” (on behalf of “all jews”) Rome and their Pope for the atrocities they committed during the holocaust, but can’t find any רחמנות in his sensitive heart for the orthodox poor jew ?
Perhaps some of the posters would care to listen to the second half of the presentation, when Rabbi Goldin appeals to his fellow rabbis that one should not judge an entire denomination of Judaism. That means that you cannot assume that a conservative rabbi is not shomer mitzvot. Don’t lump Conservative and Reform together—they are extremely different.
Also, with regard to those posters who claim that Rabbi Lincoln doesn’t care about non-frum Jews who sin—— he wasn’t asked that question!! It is silly to say that he would approve of bad behavior, even that which comes from his Conservative colleagues.