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Postville, IA - NY Times Editorial: Agriprocessors Raid A Fraudulent Exercise, And National Disgrace For Immigrants.

Published on: August 1, 2008 02:06 PM
By: NY Times Editorial
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Postville, IA - A slaughterhouse in Postville, Iowa, develops an ugly reputation for abusing animals and workers. Reports of dirty, dangerous conditions at the Agriprocessors kosher meatpacking plant accumulate for years, told by workers, union organizers, immigrant advocates and government investigators. A videotape by an animal-rights group shows workers pulling the windpipes out of living cows. A woman with a deformed hand tells a reporter of cutting meat for 12 hours a day, six days a week, for wages that labor experts call the lowest in the industry. This year, federal investigators amass evidence of rampant illegal hiring at the plant, which has been called “a kosher ‘Jungle.’ ”

The conditions at the Agriprocessors plant cry out for the cautious and deliberative application of justice.

In May, the government swoops in and arrests ... the workers, hundreds of them, for having false identity papers. The raid’s catch is so huge that the detainees are bused from little Postville to the National Cattle Congress fairgrounds in Waterloo. The defendants, mostly immigrants from Guatemala, are not charged with the usual administrative violations, but with “aggravated identity theft,” a serious crime.

They are offered a deal: They can admit their guilt to lesser charges, waive their rights, including the right to a hearing before an immigration judge, spend five months in prison, then be deported. Or, they can spend six months or more in jail without bail while awaiting a trial date, face a minimum two-year prison sentence and be deported anyway.

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Nearly 300 people agree to the five months, after being hustled through mass hearings, with one lawyer for 17 people, each having about 30 minutes of consultation per client. The plea deal is a brutal legal vise, but the immigrants accept it as the quickest way back to their spouses and children, hundreds of whom are cowering in a Catholic church, afraid to leave and not knowing how they will survive. The workers are scattered to federal lockups around the country. Many families still do not know where they are. The plant’s owners walk freely.

This is enforcement run amok. As Julia Preston reported in The Times, the once-silent workers of Agriprocessors now tell of a host of abusive practices, of rampant injuries and of exhausted children as young as 13 wielding knives on the killing floor. A young man said in an affidavit that he started at 16, in 17-hour shifts, six days a week. “I was very sad, and I felt like I was a slave.”

Instead of receiving merciful treatment as defendants who also are victims, the workers have been branded as the kind of predator who steals identities to empty bank accounts. Accounts from Postville suggest that that’s not remotely what they were. “Most of the clients we interviewed did not even know what a Social Security number was or what purpose it served,” said Erik Camayd-Freixas, a Spanish-language interpreter for many of the workers. “This worker simply had the papers filled out for him at the plant, since he could not read or write Spanish, let alone English.”

The harsh prosecution at Postville is an odd and cruel shift for the Bush administration, which for years had voiced compassion for exploited workers and insisted that immigration had to be fixed comprehensively or not at all.

Now it has abandoned mercy and proportionality. It has devised new and harsher traps, as in Postville, to prosecute the weak and the poor. It has increased the fear and desperation of workers who are irresistible to bottom-feeding businesses precisely because they are fearful and desperate. By treating illegal low-wage workers as a de facto criminal class, the government is trying to inflate the menace they pose to a level that justifies its rabid efforts to capture and punish them. That is a fraudulent exercise, and a national disgrace.


More of today's headlines

Albany - New York state Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said Friday that his office intends to file charges against Citigroup for the alleged fraudulent marketing and sale... Queens, NY - Airbus' A380 superjumbo is set to touch down at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport today, marking the first commercial arrival of the giant...

 

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Read Comments (36)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Aug 01, 2008 at 02:16 PM Unsure Says:

If what is stated here is true then we as a community have a serious problem. People say we don't care about laws, all we are "worried" about is Torah. Well it seems that isn't too far from the truth.

Why must we always act as if nothing matters except for ourselves?

If these allegations are not true then we as a community need to fight to uphold our reputation as being good caring people.

2

 Aug 01, 2008 at 02:24 PM Anonymous Says:

The plant’s owners walk freely
----------------------------------------------
The intention of the article is to show the injustice that the workers are being punished while the Rubashkin's are the guilty ones. This is a terrible chillul hashem and it needs to be addressed.

3

 Aug 01, 2008 at 02:49 PM mordy from cleveland Says:

What a major chillul hashem. Please tell rubashkin to close up shop because after reading this article i cant see how anyone with even a crooked or twisted mind will want to patronize such a company. Shame on you mr. Rubashkin. I hope yom kipper is mechaper on u.

4

 Aug 01, 2008 at 02:52 PM WOW Says:

When the most liberal news source in America is calling this fraud then we know that it is far worse then we even know... I hope Rubashkin sues the feds and PETA for millions...

5

 Aug 01, 2008 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Sounds like the workers were kidnapped and forced to perform slave labor under terrible conditions. No one forced them to work there. If the working conditions or pay don't agree with you, you can always look for work elsewhere. This is a huge problem with illegal immigrants desparate for every penny they can get their hands on, so they can send that money to their families "back home".

6

 Aug 01, 2008 at 03:09 PM Reb Gus Says:

I am sure I am not alone in noticing that chickens from this Postville plant have been saltier and are a little sloppy when placed on the Styrofoam trays before shrink wrapping.
This must be because the workers that were arrested during the immigration raid have a higher skill level than the new workers currently being employed at the Postville factory.

Eating chickens with high sodium level is not as healthy as eating ones with low sodium (packed by the previous illegal’s)

It is min-ha'shamayim that this editorial on a meat processing plant is published 2 days before the start of the 9 days and 62 days before the start of the Yomim Noraim!

It is not coincidental!

Our Rabonim are at the plant supervising daily and they will worry about the plight of the immigrants or if the owners are breaking the law. It is not our concern! Let the Rabonim take care of this.

B”H, if we end all this losho hara, recite palms and listen to our Rabonim, they will protect us from salty chickens and going to concerts with co-mingling between men and woman.

7

 Aug 01, 2008 at 03:36 PM Anonymous Says:

This is a malchis shel chesed untill they have their sights on you......

Just to give you an idea you can relate to...

Ever been to traffic court in NYC? The judge gives a little speech before he starts the cases wherein he states "the burden of proof is on the police officer"

We all know many many people credible people that have been found guilty. How is it that none of them have been able to convince a judge that the police officer has failed to meet that burden?

Thats traffic court, G-d forbid you should ever get into real trouble..............

8

 Aug 01, 2008 at 03:46 PM anonymous Says:

Reb Gus is right the chickens as of late are sloppy and feathery and saltier

9

 Aug 01, 2008 at 04:20 PM Anonymous Says:

I will bli neder try to support Rubashkin as much as I can - I don't see anything wrong with what he did re: (possibly unwittingly) using illegal workers - He will pay the fine clean up his act and hopefully will be better than ever.
He may not be a lamed vov tzadik but this is a miniscule aveira if it is an aveira at all.
He was paying above minimum wage and nobody was held against their will. He did a tremendous chesed to these unfortunate illegals who would not have had any other work. He also provided a top of the line hechsher and affordable meat.
He is an aggressive and SUCCESSFul businessman and that is why his jealous enemies are drooling at his misfortune - Let's see them shine the spotlight of scrutiny on all you malshinim and see where you stand. I wonder how many of you if you had such a huge business to run which requires very menial labor that no educated american or yid would ever do - would you be squeaky clean - It's easy to condemn and destroy - especially when you have sinah and an agenda.
To the average yid this is not a such a humungous scandal as these disgruntled malshinim would like you to believe. If you don't believe me just take a poll a your local shul or ask your Rov.
These blogs while there are alot of readers
not so many contributers - It is highly conceivable that all these destructive and negative comments are by a few jealous competitors that smell blood.

10

 Aug 01, 2008 at 06:24 PM AM YISREOL Says:

AM YISROEL ECHOD - WHY IS EVERY ONE ON THE BAND WAGON TO CONVICT A FELLOW YID - WHEN THE COURT CASE IS STILL OPEN - EXCEPT OF COURSE THE NY TIMES AND THE CONSERVATIVE KUFRIM BEIKAR - (LINCOLN)

11

 Aug 01, 2008 at 06:26 PM hazlachah Says:

it is amazing everybody comes out and say the paid to little for the workers
i never have seen amy illigeal or legal worker work for less than the minimum wages
and that is the law and rubashkin paid the workers not lee than that
than what did he do wrong where is the abuse or bad treatment
where does it say you have to pay for no skill workers more than the minimum wages ????
where does any law jewish or goverment say you must give your workers anything more than rubashkin paid ????
does meal mart or empire pay more ???
do they give them more benefits
does WAL MART pay more than minimum wages for better skilled workers
does WAL MART give benefits
go to WAL MART and see old people shlepping heavy boxes and what do they get paid ??? minimum
i want to know all the lefty JEWS RABBIS who have the illigal GOITES clean there house how much do they pay
what benefits do they give them
we leave in fall corrupted world
i know rubashkin and meal mart all give and help many people with ZEDAKAH
i was in Chicago in a very big Fortune 500 company they opay the people only minimu wages
they dont even have a water cooler for the people and in the factory was almost 100 degree
i asked them why dont they have a water cooler
they told me everybody is free to buy any soda or bring there own bottle of water

12

 Aug 01, 2008 at 06:57 PM critical minyan Says:

therefore, if a man is married to woman who was converted by a reform rabbi, and she cooks him a Rubashkin steak for dinner, he would be allowed to eat it, but if she did she would be guilty of a capital crime.

13

 Aug 02, 2008 at 10:09 PM yankel Says:

Interesting the NYT owned and operated by assimilated reformed jews are concerned with cilul hashem, so are most reviews here who seem to support and never complain for any atrocity (cilul hashem) made by israel which is the core of all chilul hashems.

14

 Aug 02, 2008 at 10:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Anonymous 9:59 "I still see people supporting the Chillul Hashen that the Rubashkins did"
The real Chillul Hashem is behavior of these
rabble rousers that keep harping and rehashing this unjustified targeted raid etc. on Rubashkin
who was doing what most other large companies do.
I am sure that the venemous Loshon Hora REchilus and attempt at destroying the life and livlihood of this big Baal Tzedaka is a far greater avlah
and potential cause of tradgedy than what Rubashkin is accused of. But the misguided
Gossip Momngers that are hell bent on destruction of a fellow yid are so blinded by hatred that they do not see - Nebech - Do teshuvah during these nine days - learn some Shmiras Haloshon
maybe you can be saved yet.

15

 Aug 02, 2008 at 10:33 PM Anonymous Says:

He did not unwittingly employ illegals. Rubashkin and Company filled in the application forms for these illiterate workers knowing full well that they were illegals. I guess if if you want to trust their shechitta you have to overlook dina d'malchusah dina.

16

 Aug 02, 2008 at 10:58 PM Anonymous Says:

The reason there are Mashgichim there is to assure
that the kashrus is 100% because we can never trust the Baal Bos who stands to gain by substitituting non-kosher or sub-par kashrus.
Kashrus has nothing to do with wheather THEY are following Dina D'Malchusa or not.
That is new shtick that has been invented by the Conservative/Reform chevra & others with an agenda of trying to destroy Rubashkin in any which way they can.

17

 Aug 02, 2008 at 11:01 PM Anonymous Says:

every business exploits their workers in one way or another - unfortunately someone had a beef (pardon the pun) with rubashkin, (probably because they were taking away business from them) and they were influencial enough to get the government to react the way they did.

bottom line is, if you care about employee rights then you can't buy anything!!! let's move on and hope meat prices don't go sky high like oil.

18

 Aug 02, 2008 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:

if you believe what the new york slimes writes about,then i got a bridge to sell you.may the rubashkin family live long and prosperous.

19

 Aug 02, 2008 at 11:31 PM Anonymous Says:

I love these commentars in these blogs, the Welfare collectors, Section 8 benifactors in apartments they own, on other names. Food stamp exploiters, while holding down perhaps 2 jobs. They are judgmental of others, without giving anyone the benifit of the doubt, being "Dan Lkaf Zechus" shame on you. You know who you are, hiding behind "anonymous". If the name is Rubashkin then you can criticise them "Chilul Hashem" etc... had the name been Weinstock, Alle processing / Meal Mart, then, the Government are the Reshoyim, Anti semites,we know your kind, the greatest "Chilul Hashem" causers bein adom l'chavero ubein adom le'mokom. I don't expect you to see it on yourselves, it's easier to see on others. Remember what you on others is a reflection of yourself... go on tear me apart it's part of your nature ..... Sh. P.

20

 Aug 03, 2008 at 01:08 AM jj Says:

Anonymous Says:
The reason there are Mashgichim there is to assure
that the kashrus is 100% because we can never trust the Baal Bos who stands to gain by substitituting non-kosher or sub-par kashrus.
Kashrus has nothing to do with wheather THEY are following Dina D'Malchusa or not.
That is new shtick that has been invented by the Conservative/Reform chevra & others with an agenda of trying to destroy Rubashkin in any which way they can.
08-02-2008 - 10:58 PM
============================================
Weismandel is hired and paid by Rubash/agrei. Its a conflict of intrest . How can you possibly trust weeismandle if he is threatened with his job if he speaks out about something. He must be paid by a third party . impartial.

21

 Aug 03, 2008 at 07:36 AM mashgiach @ Rubashkin Says:

For those of you who care to know the truth, I worked for the rubashkins for many years, and I can tell you first hand that all these allegations are untrue.
As some one mentioned above, Rubashkin paid min. wage and they have no reason to pay more for an unskilled new employee (although every employee earned at least $1.00 - $1.50 more then min. wage within the first 6 months to a year after starting his job at Agriprocessors)
Unfortunately people including Rabonim are very quick to judge others.
How Rabonim who have never seen this operation are able to speak against rubashkin stills boggles my min.
How so many frum people are ready to listen to Rabonim who they never considered Rabonim before this story unfolded stills boggles my mind.
Just a few facts for those who care for the truth:
Rubashkins did as the law requires: to make sure every person requesting a job bring id, etc. there is no law that states that you are required to have an fbi agent to make sure that the papers that the potential employee bring are legitimate. That's the governments’ job.
No one was forced to do the overtime hours. Employees would beg for it because they wanted to earn more to send to/help their families.
There was no one even close to being young as 13 years old as the papers are writing. of course if you offer a 13 yr old kid to speak negative about a Jewish company in return for a 4 year visa, who wouldn't say anything that could help them fill articles?
Every employee at rubashkin got a legal check that had all taxes deducted. NO ONE EVER GOT PAID IN CASH.
I hope AM YISROEL wakes up and stops beleiving all the garbage in the papers, as I'm sure we'll all read the pappers in the near future of the group of Rabonim that went to visit a few days ago and we'll hear true testemony.
Hopefully Rubashkin will one day recover from all this and they will be able to supply AM YISROEL with meat that's m'hadrin min hamihadrin.

22

 Aug 03, 2008 at 07:52 AM mnachem Says:

to 7.36am
everything you can be right but live out the hoking on raboonim

23

 Aug 03, 2008 at 08:11 AM ANONYMOUS Says:

yankel Says:
Interesting the NYT owned and operated by assimilated reformed jews are concerned with cilul hashem, so are most reviews here who seem to support and never complain for any atrocity (cilul hashem) made by israel which is the core of all chilul hashems.
08-02-2008 - 10:09 PM
********************************
Very nice. You completely ignored what went on in Iowa and turned our attention to another country completely. What does the Yiden in Eretz Yisroel have to do with the tremendous Chillul Hashen that still continues to grow in Iowa? You think that it is proper to hire 13 year old children and put them in a meat plant?


Anonymous Says:
Anonymous 9:59 "I still see people supporting the Chillul Hashen that the Rubashkins did"
The real Chillul Hashem is behavior of these
rabble rousers that keep harping and rehashing this unjustified targeted raid etc. on Rubashkin
who was doing what most other large companies do.
****************************************
Most Jews do not have any ethics and eat treif. Is that what you are saying? If everyone does it, then it is justified??
The Chofetz Chayim must have been such a rabble rouser when he exhorted Am Yisroel to do better. Machane Yisroel tells of how a Jew is supposed to act in the army. Would you tell that Yid that he is a rabble rouser and he should forget his neshama because everyone else does ? Why do you want Rubashkin to act like the Goyim and have no ethics at all?


Anonymous Says:
every business exploits their workers in one way or another - unfortunately someone had a beef (pardon the pun) with rubashkin, (probably because they were taking away business from them) and they were influencial enough to get the government to react the way they did.
****************************************
Who did you have in mind? Who did this? Spill the beans so we will all know who planted the evidence to do this to the Rubashkins!! What do you know that no one else knows? What is your source? Or are you lying because that is your nature to lie when you are caught, instead of doing Tshuvah??


mashgiach @ Rubashkin Says:
For those of you who care to know the truth, I worked for the rubashkins for many years, and I can tell you first hand that all these allegations are untrue.
***********************************************
If you really are a mashgiach, then why did Rabbi Weismandl publicly say that his superviosion does not go to the cutting and packaging rooms. Who controls the labels in the packaging rooms - the goyim?
Who controls the plant on Shabbat? What is done there? what heterim are used? How are the trucks able to leave on Friday and show up to New York on Monday without being mechallel Shabbat? You are the mashgiach. I want to know...


24

 Aug 03, 2008 at 10:34 AM Anonymous Says:

"then why did Rabbi Weismandl publicly say that his superviosion does not go to the cutting and packaging rooms"
I don't know where your getting your info from but Rabbi Weissmandl never said such a statment.
He definitly takes responsability from shchita untill end of packaging. his label goes into the package.
The mashgichim are 100 % in control of all labels.
Again if your looking for gossip and you'll find plenty. if your looking for the truth, make a few phone calls to rabonim that give their hashgocho at Rubashkin and you will get all the true info, and you can ask all of your halochic questions.
but that is not the issue on hand. If that was the issue, then you would either have asked that those questions before ICE made their raid or you wouldnt have been eating any kosher meat & poultry from any kosher plant because all plats work the same with regards to trucking etc.
I'm not a rov but I'm sure if you called any from any of the kosher plants today Alle/Mealmart, Rubashkin... you'll get your answers


25

 Aug 03, 2008 at 11:06 AM baruch Says:

B"H
i dont see what rubashkin did wrong .
the did the BEST for klal yisroel.as a travel agent i could tell you about r.lincoln
RUBASHKIN CHZAK VEAMATZ
I AND MY FRIENDS SUPPORT YOU .
you have a big zechus that klal yisroel saved money and ate kosher.
baruch

26

 Aug 03, 2008 at 11:07 AM ANONYMOUS Says:

Anonymous Says:
"then why did Rabbi Weismandl publicly say that his superviosion does not go to the cutting and packaging rooms"
I don't know where your getting your info from but Rabbi Weissmandl never said such a statment.
*****************************************
Better read the Wall St Journal and see for yourself what he said.



He definitly takes responsability from shchita untill end of packaging. his label goes into the package.
The mashgichim are 100 % in control of all labels.
***************************************
Then why do the drivers in New York have the labels in their trucks? Many people have seen them.



Again if your looking for gossip and you'll find plenty. if your looking for the truth, make a few phone calls to rabonim that give their hashgocho at Rubashkin and you will get all the true info, and you can ask all of your halochic questions.
but that is not the issue on hand.
***************************************
There is a clause in the contract that the Mashgichim are not allowed to talk about what goes on in the plant. With that in place, how do you expect to get a straight answer. Where are you getting your information from? Gossip?



If that was the issue, then you would either have asked that those questions before ICE made their raid or you wouldnt have been eating any kosher meat & poultry from any kosher plant because all plats work the same with regards to trucking etc.
**************************************
No they don't. They do not own the slaughterhouse like Rubashkin. If you publically go against the Takana of the Agudas Horabonim that prohibits a company from having a Kosher and a treif division, what do you expect? I have heard that the Takana was no longer in effect (not true), it only applies to New York (not true), Lubavitch have their own bet din tha annuled it (who do they have greater than Reb Moshe who signed the Takana?).
The viciousness of the people that attack those that want a good shechita at Rubashkin is horrendous. And the chuillul Hashen that Rubashkin caused in minor compared tothe good deeds that the family has done.
*******************************************


I'm not a rov but I'm sure if you called any from any of the kosher plants today Alle/Mealmart,
Rubashkin... you'll get your answers
*******************************************
They do not have slaughterhouses. Their trucks do not run on Shabbas. Their plants are closed on Shabbas. What heterim are used by Rubashkin to be mechallel Shabbas?

27

 Aug 03, 2008 at 11:12 AM BADTZ Says:

the koffer beikar LINCOLN hates evry frum yid he sees in them only chisronos.what ever the do.he dosnot believe in torah .when was the last time that he did any chssed exept for his job.why do we have to look even on his side.let him talk all dogs bark.
BADATZ

28

 Aug 03, 2008 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

As I mentioned I'm not a rov and it's not very difficult to get ahold of one of the robonim at Rubashkins, it's no secret. And They'll answer all of your questions.
But as I mentioned before, this is not the issue on hand. Nothing has changes with their halachic precedures before or after the raid.
I will answer a few of your questions but i won't be wasting any more of my time to a person who's sources are A) The wall st. journal, B) NYC truckdrivers and C) Mashgichim contracts (there is no such thing as mashgichim contracts& in all of my years at The company I never heard of this clause. I find out new things every day about the compsny i worked for, for all these years.
As i said before if your a person who's going to judge based on wall st. journal, flase rumers about mashgichim contract...... I will wast no more time with you. And I hope no one else pays attention to your gossip

29

 Aug 03, 2008 at 01:02 PM bigwheeel Says:

Haven't seen the NYT Editorial. But it appears that the new york times only decries the fact that the (capitalist, J---) owners went free, while the workers were arrested and prosecuted! The only question (for objective inquirers) remains, Why the Government charged them (the workers) with Identity Theft when they had NO [valid] papers, at all!!!

30

 Aug 03, 2008 at 01:04 PM ANONYMOUS Says:

To 1200 PM
As far as I can see, you are gossiping about things of which you know nothing.
Do not waste our time and claim that you work at the plant. Don't spreak lies and say that the mashgichim have no contract. A waste of your time?
Too bad you did not read the editorial in the NYTIMES. Chullul Hashem means nothing to you.

The NYC drivers are Rubashkin's employees. THey have the labels in their trucks. Saying the sky is green does not make it green.
We all want a Rubashkin that has ne'emanos. You are trying to destroy that by claiming outright lies and distortions.

THere was one line that the person wrote tat you had no comment about. This is very important.

"If you publically go against the Takana of the Agudas Horabonim that prohibits a company from having a Kosher and a treif division, what do you expect? I have heard that the Takana was no longer in effect (not true), it only applies to New York (not true), Lubavitch have their own bet din tha annuled it (who do they have greater than Reb Moshe who signed the Takana?). "

The company publically went against this Takana. What do you expect to happen if the Daas Gedolim is ignored? This was a trap door that they did not want companys to fall into. Looks like you fell into it.

If you are going to answer the usual drivel that the Rubashkins have not been charged, yet, don't bother to answer.

31

 Aug 03, 2008 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:

once again stop quoting me wall st. journal & ny times.
regarding takana, as i said before and I'll say AGAIN if you trusted rabonim before the raid you can trust them now. so stop reading the lies in the news, pick up the phone, call any one of the rabonim hamachshirim, and you will get all the answers to your questions. UNLESS YOU'RE NOT LOOKING FOR ANSWERS.
from the fact that you question me as an employee and about our contract, and that you qoute so many news reports and not facts from Rabonim shows me that you truely are not looking for the truth. And if that's the case I'm sorry I wasted my time and yours.
Hopefully people out there were looking for the truth and read what I wrote and will realise that unfortunatly too many people love to gossip, but all that you said was very far from the truth.
For your sake and for the sake of klal yisroel, for the poor people that rubashkin and Alle support, no one benifits from putting a kosher company out of business, for no reason.

32

 Aug 03, 2008 at 01:25 PM Anonymous Says:

it's the nine days, lets start to respect one another, be carefull what we say to one another with tshuva .... we'll bring the geula

33

 Aug 03, 2008 at 03:11 PM anonymous Says:

For your sake and for the sake of klal yisroel, for the poor people that rubashkin and Alle support, no one benifits from putting a kosher company out of business, for no reason
------------------------------------------
What does Alle have to do with this? Why drag them into the Chillul Hashem that Rubashkin did??

34

 Aug 03, 2008 at 03:27 PM anonymous Says:

"regarding takana, as i said before and I'll say AGAIN if you trusted rabonim before the raid you can trust them now."

I trusted KAJ and according to Rubashkin press release, they were asked to leave. According to KAJ, they left on their own accord. Someone is lying.

If the current Rabbonim ignored the takana before the raid, then obviously, they can not be trusted after the raid. Gedolei Hador cannot be ignored, simply because they were from a previous generation.

Takanot were made for our safety, both on a moral and spiritual level. The Takana of eating gevinas akum was made hundreds of years ago, yet it is still observed today. Anyone who goes against that takana (of gevinas akum) would be looked as if he were crazy or stupid. Who would hold from him??

Yes, this is the nine days. The bais hamikdash was destroyed because of Sinas Chinom. Look at what is being done. We want a better standard the Baal Habatim that make our foods and we see that the current people are causing a chillul Hashem. We try to correct it and we get out heads chewed off.

Try to step out of the forest and see the whole picture, instead of individual trees.

35

 Aug 03, 2008 at 04:07 PM shmuel Says:

First of all, are you sure that your facts are correct regarding this takana? I think the takana is that a yid can't slaughter meat for the sole purpose of selling it treif.I don't know how they do it elsewhere, but Rubashkins only sells the meat that becomes treif. Many people don't know this but about half of every cow or sheep is treif whether there is a shaila or not. That meat should be thrown out, or given away?? That's so rediculous its funny. Then the cost of kosher meat would more then double.

36

 Aug 04, 2008 at 02:37 PM getzel Says:

since when do erliche yidin read such a liberal news paper like the Old York Times../occording to them Isreal should be wiped off the map,Presdent Bush would be immpeached, and Rubashkin closed....Liberalizem is a mental disorder...

37

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