Washington - Responses of the Orthodox Organizations On Agriprocessors Troubles Fall far Short From A Kosher Perspective |
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One of the customary practices in these nine days is the avoidance of meat: it’s the way we commemorate the destruction of the Temple, where daily animal sacrifices were once brought.
Refraining from food is symbolic, of course. The idea is not just to avoid meat but to limit ourselves so that we can better focus on the spiritual.
Unfortunately, this year kosher meat has become a different type of symbol, one not of mourning and spiritual devotion but of ridicule, embarrassment and hypocrisy. In May in Postville, Iowa, immigration officials raided Agriprocessors Inc., the largest kosher meatpacking plant in the country.
What began as an immigration sting, however, quickly took on larger dimensions. News reports and government documents have described abusive practices at Agriprocessors against workers, including minors. Children as young as 13 were said to be wielding knives on the killing floor; some teenagers were working 17-hour shifts, six days a week.
This poses a grave problem and calls into question whether the food processed in the plant qualifies as kosher.
You see, there is precedent for declaring something nonkosher on the basis of how employees are treated. Yisroel Salanter, the great 19th-century rabbi, is famously believed to have refused to certify a matzo factory as kosher on the grounds that the workers were being treated unfairly. In addition to the hypocrisy of calling something kosher when it is being sold and produced in an unethical manner, we have to take into account disturbing information about the plant that has come to light.
The affidavit filed in the United States District Court of Northern Iowa, for instance, alleges that an employee was physically abused by a rabbi on the floor of the plant. If true, this calls into question the reliability and judgment of the rabbi in charge of making sure the food was kosher.
What’s more, two workers who oversaw the poultry and beef division were recently arrested for helping illegal immigrants falsify documents. If they were willing to break national immigration laws, one could reasonably ask whether they would be likely to show the same lack of concern for Jewish dietary laws.
Unfortunately, the responses of the leading Orthodox organizations, the Rabbinical Council of America and the Orthodox Union, have, in my opinion, fallen far short of what is needed to be done and have done little to diminish the extent of the desecration of God’s name. I am a member of both groups, but I am dissatisfied with their stance, which asks us to sit back patiently and wait for the results of a federal investigation. On some level, this might be prudent, but on another it is unacceptable.
What is needed is for the Orthodox Union to appoint an independent commission whose members have not in the past been paid by either the Orthodox Union or Agriprocessors. Such a commission would select a team of rabbinic experts to spend an extended period of time at the plant and then make suggestions and recommendations. This independent team would make sure the plant upholds basic standards of kashrut and worker and animal treatment — and that it is in full compliance with the laws of the United States.
Hebrew National used to run a commercial that said: “We answer to a Higher Authority.” Well, we do. We need to express shame and embarrassment about the reports coming out of Iowa, and we need to actively work to change these matters. Then we should ask ourselves if our behavior and our values need improvement. Only if we truly think about these issues will we truly be keeping kosher.
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1
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:14 AM Anonymous Says:
More crap and more crap.. children were working there ? oy nebech! I really hated the fact that my entire teenage years untill I reached 18 I could not get a job.. whatd I do? lied about my age to a pizza shop.
Whoever wrote this is just repeating a liberal jewish party line...
Y
2
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:19 AM Anonymous Says:
You have underaged workers? oy vay a shandeh.. people worked 17 hours a day? maybe they wanted to?
Are you implying that rubashkin kidnapped them and forced them to work? mamash you people are a bizayon.
Listen.. everyones zaidy's here went to work at 13.. in most country's kids go to work young.. THATS a traifing factor ?
Are you meshuga ?!?! again with all the morals and ethical crap
Where in ANYWHERE in torah does it say a 13 year old cant work?!?
I stand by my assumptions that rubashkin's focused on kashrus not the working level.. that was left to the managers.
Its nice to preach from your throne.. but maybe you should focus on goverment insurance instead ? y'know...
3
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:21 AM Yosi Says:
Left wing ultra-liberal fringe orthodox new york times Rabbi.
What else did you expect from him?
4
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:26 AM Anonymous Says:
Nothing written so far is a treif factor but paying people 6.00 an hour is disgusting and TREIF.
Would you work for 6.00 an hour?
This will not be the last we hear about hashgocha scandal and I do believe this effects the KASHRIS status of what we put in our mouths.
How can we trust people in a company, jewish and non jewish, about a product if they cheat and steal from the governement?
The monsey scandal involved "reliable people" anda person whos beard was longer than some people on your block.
The entire hashgocha industry stinks and I do not know who we can trust with anything anymore.
Hashrus stinks and rabanim don't say a word once again! So far the Rabanim have not changed anything with kashrus and they have not done anything with rabeim molestors. Do Rabanim even care about us anymore or do they only care about themselves and their own pocket?
5
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:58 AM Torah Jew Says:
I would sooner turn to a pig farmer then the liberal Goy Times to tell me what is and isnt kosher.
6
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:59 AM Benji Says:
oich mir a rabbi
7
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:02 AM R' Herzfeld Sadly Missed the Point Says:
R' Shmuel Herzfeld points out that we don't eat meat in the 9 days but the fact that he continues to further slanderous accusations during the 9 days doesn't bother him?!
And BTW, is he on Hebrew National's payroll?
8
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:16 AM anonymous Says:
This Rav has failed to understand the basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. I am sure he has in the past talked about not jumping to judge others, yet everyone with a pen has attacked Rubashkin.
What also needs to be mentioned is how does this plant compare to others in the industry. Are the conditions here any worse than at any other meat plant? The conditions will never be as nice as an office in manhatten, and its not fair to expect it. Working in a plant is not a luxury job.
9
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:06 AM anonymous Says:
the food is still kosher, rubaskin should just clean up its act a little that's all.
10
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:08 AM anonymous Says:
Those who criticize rabbonim for inaction are those that criticize when they do act. Any Rav that acts is considered a right-wing vigilante, yet they are criticized for remaining silent. We need as community choose Rabbonim who we will follow as told, with complete trust.
When a rebbe is thrown out, its because a rich parent forced them, and then parents are mad about those that they percieve to have more power than them.
We have become bitter people, who are ruled by ego and emotion. What ever happened to the torah being eternal and providing answers to today's issues.
11
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:35 AM Drill Here!! Drill Now!! Save Money!! Says:
This Mr is such a rosha! He calls himself a "Rabbi??" If he is a rabbi he should be sued for malpractice!
How could he presume them to be guilty?
Forget it, I am too upset to write about this.
Er zul brutin!
12
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:42 AM Who is this "rabbi" person anyway?? Says:
Here it is from his website:
Biography
Shmuel Herzfeld
Rabbi, Ohev Sholom Talmud Torah--The National Synagogue
Shmuel is Rabbi of Ohev Sholom--The National Synagogue, the oldest Orthodox synagogue in Washington, DC. His communal responsibilities include teaching classes, coordinating adult
education, creating programs for the elderly,the youth, and the sick, and ministering to the pastoral needs of the congregation.
He received rabbinic ordination from the
Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary,
an affiliate of Yeshiva University, and a
Masters in Jewish History from Bernard Revel
Graduate School of Yeshiva University.
He is a frequent guest columnist in newspapers and is host of a weekly radio show called Shmoozin with Shmuel. He also teaches a regular class on Judaism at the US Senate.
He lives in Washington, DC, with his wife Rhanni,
and children Lea, Roey, Elai, Max, and Shia.
He is National Vice-President of Coalition of
Jewish Concerns—Amcha, and co-founder of Lishmah.
The shul is an OU shul. The website is http://www.ostns.org/ .
Based on all this info, I think we need to call upon the OU (http://www.ou.org/ou/contact) to severly rebuke him or even worse for having the chutzpa to say what he said in a national forum. This is 180 degrees from what the OU has had to say about the situation there.
13
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:59 AM critical minyan Says:
i agree with rabbi herzfeld that treating workers badly can make the meat trayf. However, in this particular case we shouldn't have to kasher our dishes for the past meat, (if we ever used Rubashkin), because according to our sources the mistreatment of workers was bitul b'shishim. Only 24 of something like 1500 workers were underage.
the butcher in monsey was far worse.
14
Aug 06, 2008 at 06:18 AM ANONYMOUS Says:
I am disgusted to read that there are individuals that think it was right of Rubashkin to hire 13 year old children. Oh, I suppose you will say that no one in the plant, from the owners to the supervisors to human resources to the mashgichim can tell a 13 year old from a 18 year old.
If this was one of the charges in the original imigration raid, and the records from Rubashkin showed that there were underage workers in the plant, and some of the workers in the plant that were arrested were less than 18 - In the words of Dan Rather - if it looks loke a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.
Don't pish on me and tell me that it smells like roses. We all know what it is.
15
Aug 06, 2008 at 06:31 AM A FRUM MINNESOTAN Says:
Can someone make sure to get Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld on the OU payroll? guys don't you get it, all this rabbis want is some kashrus TAX FREE money...
16
Aug 06, 2008 at 07:32 AM Judge Says:
what's going on with u guys having underage workers is not against kashrus laws leave them alone & let's hope Rubashkin gets through it easily & quick (im not a rubshkin customer @all but the r still frum yiden)and who cares what that so called rabbi says everyone can write rabbi next to there name but WE ALL know he doesn't talk in the name of Hashem Torah or Yidden
17
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:03 AM donald duck Says:
for the person not believing that the people at rabashkin didnt know the difference between the children that are underage, i can tell you some of these spanish woman that are 40 look like 15 and the men some are 20 and look much old. they were given documentation that they are older they cannot be blamed. also as far as these reform so called rabbis there is a place in gehenim for you already well prepared stop harrassing everybody because you know you are rediculous.
18
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:22 AM Anonymous Says:
How about all the food nowadays produced in CHINA, Brazil, & Vietnam. Are they treif because shere is child labor and other practices against our and their local law??
19
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:32 AM Anonymous Says:
At 13 my son was already growing a beard. My second son was over 6' tall at 14 & is built like a linebacker. Not all kids look their age.
20
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:32 AM critical minyan Says:
Donald duck,
Rubashkin allegedly gave them the documentation. They found 200 blank green cards in the Agriprocessors office. All you guys defend Rubashkin without knowing the true facts.
All Rabbi Herzfeld is calling for is a faster investigation. The OU and Agudah have been trying to sweep this under the carpet for 2 years. That is why it is such a Shandeh now, because instead of trying to fix illegal or immoral activities, the OU and Agudah trusted Rubashkin to fix things himself.
21
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:35 AM Anonymous Says:
if a kid is desperate for a part time job & brings false papers and looks like an 18 yeard old, how is ANY employer supposed to know they're lying?
The govt. didn't have a problem in WW2 & Korea & probably some in Vietnam when 15 year olds signed up to get killed, did they?
22
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:49 AM Anonymous Says:
ok enough already all this is doing is turning those who have already turned away from yiddishkeit to go further.........this needs to end...... either they must close down or pullup there socks and fix it all up....... it seems that the family only cared about money and all the honers they get in there community........ please please put a stop to this...... i am sick of hearing young people who going of the derech say what derech if all these different people do these kind of things....... please please stop
23
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:50 AM Shlomo Radomsker Says:
As I have said before - the end of this sad chapter will be the forced sale of this business from the Rubashkin family to new owners who will clean house and try to repair the damages.
24
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:09 AM shvicar Says:
OY REBONOE SHEL OLAM, IN THE 9 DAYS THIS RABBI HAS NOTHING BETTER TO DO THEN TO TRY AND KNOCK A COMPANY THAT IN THEIR ZCHUS MILLIONS OF JEWS ARE EATING KOSHER EVERY DAY.
THEY HAVE OVER 1500 WORKERS AND U FIND 2 WORKERS THAT WERE UNDERAGE SO NOW THE ENTIRE PLANT IS NOT KOSHER? COME ON IM SURE IF I DUG INTO YOUR LIFE MR SO CALLED RABBI I CAN FIND MUCH WORSE. NO PERSON AND FOR SURE NO COMPANY IS PERFECT AND THERE WILL ALWAYS BE HOLES THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN CARE OF.
ITS UP TO THE OU IF THEY WANT TO GIVE A HASHGOCHO AND ITS UP TO THE PEOPLE TO DEICDE OF THEY WANT TO BUY THE MEET.
THIS IS ALL ABOUT HATERED TOWARDS RUBASHKIN, AND TRYING TO KEEP IT IN THE NEWS. EVERY TIME IT GETS QUIET HE WILL PUBLISH ANOTHER ARTICLE.
IN THE ZCHUS OF ALL THE TZEDAKA THEY GAVE HASHEM WILL HELP THEM AND THEY WILL MAKE 1000 TIMES MORE THEN BEFORE.
25
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:11 AM groinem Says:
this same Rabbi would probly tell you to vote for Obama, these liberals are nuts, and they think we are crazy.
This so called Rabbi is so dumb,he makes every body should think there is no rabinical supervision when in fact there is more mashgichem then in any other plant, from weismandel to C.H.K. ou they are there to check every thing.
I would like to know if this self hating jew never brought any item with out checking the company's employment system, he probly never brought anything from China and so on.
Hebrew National is NOT a glatt kosher company,we dont trust them with our kashrus standarts, nor will we eat them, so dont tell me what they say or do, that company is not for Otherdox jews.
26
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:20 AM Anonymous Says:
"forced sale of this business" - and the sooner the better so that we don't have every day greater and greater chillul hashem. Its a shame to see how many people attack the messenger and don't hear the message - is their desire for cheap meat greater than their desire for kashrus and yashrus - or do they defend these people since they are of the same sect? Meanwhile, where I live, we have prevailed on the supermarket to remove all Rubashkin products, and will be working next on the butcher stores. Adelante!
27
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:32 AM DaddyO Says:
Someone asks, Where in the Torah does it say a 13-year old can't work? What a stupid question. There's lots of things that the Torah doesn't say. Where in the Torah does it say a two-year old can't be used for a pillow? So maybe we should use babies for pillows. Try to use some logic people.
28
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:33 AM Anonymous Says:
Hebrew National is fine for some people. So you don't want to eat it? Good for you. But that doesn't make it traif.
29
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:50 AM shmiel glassman Says:
after the facts have been put in proper context this article is shameful, nothing more than a cheap potshot
a slaughter house of this size is no easy operation "dont you think there will be some mishandeling of situations / the work enviroment of these teenage workers is far far better than their fate in their old country "for them this is a dream job" (although it may not live upto american standards )
30
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:51 AM Yossi G. Says:
Yes, the NY Times and this rabbi are anti-Semites because they printed this.
And the NY Post is anti-Semitic because they wrote about the Frum fake OB/GYN.
And Newsweek is anti-Semitic because they wrote about the drinking problem.
And Newsday is anti-Semitic because they wrote about the Rav and the $42 million mortgage scam.
And New York magazine is anti-Semitic because they wrote about....
Wake up, chevra! It's time to to stop attacking the messengers and to realize that there really are problems in the community, and working to solve them!
31
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:
The attacks continue from this pure drivel of this "rabbi" - Nebech - to the targeted sinah of the Baalei Loshon Horah that are either jealous of just hate Rubashkin.
Fortunately there is due process in this country
and he will pay any possible fines, get new workers and once again be able to keep up to the continued overwhelming demand. Most yidden are smart and level headed and wont fall for this garbage being spewed by hate mongers and rabble rousers. I usually buy other meat but will try from now on to support Rubashkin davke to make a statement that I think it's 1000% Kosher (as good as (or better than)any other shechita).
32
Aug 06, 2008 at 10:05 AM Hersh Says:
Why does this blog post idiotic opinions as this one? It just shows that this is what the poster values. How many of you out there benefit from an illegal immegrant? Maybe your house is not Kosher because of it, or we can not trust you because you break the national immigration laws. Come on, they have children working there, how old are they? what is their job? How about we have these questions answered before we start making accusations.
33
Aug 06, 2008 at 10:22 AM Anonymous Says:
On what authority does "Rabbi" Herzfeld drop the title Rabbi from Horav Yisroel Salanter? Furthermore, there is documentation that Horav Yisroel Salanter told people that the stringency that is most important when baking Matzos is not to scream at the women rolling the Matzos - as most of them are poor & many of them are widows. I have yet to see any documentation that he refused to use Matzos for the reason quoted in the article.
34
Aug 06, 2008 at 10:34 AM yankel Says:
Rabbis should talk about halachas not merely opinions (everybody has opinions) does this rabbi have any halachic refrences that qulifies him to assert his torah pesak halacha than let him state it and it will be discussed.
35
Aug 06, 2008 at 10:34 AM ANONYMOUS Says:
Anonymous Says:
dont you people think that it time to cut short on vuz iz neias do we need the natzis for jewish hate we have 'm rite here because somebody fualse a doctument he is not NAMEN ON KASHRUS do we need glasses to see what a jew hatter this rabbi is why call him rabbi
08-06-2008 - 10:07 AM
***************************************
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I do know that you have just used the nazi card from the bottom of the deck.
You have no idea what you just did and as the child of survivers, I don't care about anything you have to say. The chutzpa - you have no idea how idotic and moronic it is to use that excuse against a fellow Jew that wants Rubashkin to straighten out,. He does not want Rubashkin dead, tortured, mutilated, etc.
Filing a false docucument with the government leads to many questions, including the doubts on his ne'emanos in kashrus matters.
*****************************************
36
Aug 06, 2008 at 10:44 AM David Says:
I am shocked and disgusted at how people are piling on a Rabbi who sincerely wants matters to improve both the Kasrus of our food and the Kashrus of our actions. The bile and contempt that drips from people's comments is inexcusable.
Rabbi Herzfeld, may H-shem bless you in your efforts and may you have success upon success.
As for all you others and your comments disparaging him and praising the unethical treatment of workers by Rubashkin, excuse me while I go boil some eggs and burn something to make eggs and ashes for my Tisha B'Av Seudas Hamafsekes.
37
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:02 AM anonymous Says:
what about chilul Hashem b'farhesyah?
printing an op-ed in the NYT like that is a chilul Hashem an aveirah you give your life to prevent. "Rabbi" Herzfeld got his 15 min of
shame-fame at what cost?
It is amazing that everybody is more concerned about child labor laws than the glory of Hashem and the Torah.
If Rabbi Herzfeld wants to see changes at Rubashkin he should set up a coalition of Rabbonim abd not use the public secular anti semitic press to vent his views.
TO: David
When eating your egg at the suedas hamafsekes remember that the churbon came about by ratting out the misdeeds of badly behaving Jews to the goiym (Romans Y'S) Bar Kamsah was sucsessful in his mission. How many have suffered for 2000 years for his Chilul Hashem.
38
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:
the real problem is Big Kashrus being run by halachikly unscrupulous business men. there are lots of rabbis with long beards that represent the face of this industry, but behind the scenes are hard nosed unethical businessmen running the show. everyone in kashrus knows this.
39
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:08 AM anonymous Says:
I find it amazing that the Times runs to print a disparaging Jew vs Jew Op-Ed and won't publish an Op-Ed by Senator John McCain.
40
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:10 AM Anonymous Says:
who is this Rabbi Herzfeld?
here is what I picked up when I did some research.
After you finish reading below tell me if you would you eat in this rabbi's house.
Ohev Sholom-The National Synagogue
RELIGIOUS LEADER: Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld
WEBSITE: http://www.ostns.org/
EMAIL: info@ostt.org, RabbiHerzfeld@yahoo.com
PHONE: 202-882-7225
ADDRESS:1600 Jonquil St NW, Wash DC 20012
Women in Leadership Positions
• Equal number of men and women serve on Board
• Woman is vice-president
• Female Executive Director
Women Speaking From the Amud
• Women may speak from the amud
Women’s Ritual Participation
• Women may recite birkhat hagomel
• Women's names used in misheberach and aliyot
• Women carry the Torah during services
Kaddish
• Women may say kaddish
Women’s Tefillah Group
• Yes
Life Cycle Events
• Women are included in life cycle events
Mechitzah Structure
• 50", down the middle
Childcare Available During Services
• Yes
41
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:
I can't believe this!
Rabbi Herzfeld is the biggest disgrace to yiddishkeit the way he runs his shul, and yet has the nerve to write in the paper. What a Chilul Hashem
42
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:16 AM David Says:
"It is amazing that everybody is more concerned about child labor laws than the glory of Hashem and the Torah......"
The Glory of Hashem and the Torah are enhanced by following fair and ethical Labor practices, not by taking advantage of poor, underage workers to produce lower cost "kosher" meat.
If the Jewish community won't act when it had the time and ability to, then it is necesary to go the next level and involve the Government and Justice Dept to force compliance. The Chillul is not having outside enforcement, but the unethical actions of Rubashkins that forced it to be so.
43
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:38 AM Anonymous Says:
Kudos to Rabbi Herzberg! To be considered "Kosher"/frum we need to behave in a "Kosher"/ethical manner. Being reminded every so often -albeit from the occasional op-ed pieces in the New York Times- is not such a terrible thing. Chill guys!!!
44
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:41 AM Moisy esq Says:
David
Sorry to inform you that a Moisser (informant)is an act (Chofetz Chiam SH) the same as Idolatry, and Murder.
Nobody is legitimizing any alleged acts of Rubashkin/Agri. Furthermore these are to this date un-proven allegations.
However an ordained Rabbi commiting a public Chilul Hashem is not acceptable under any circumstances.
To snitch on a fellow Jew is a prohibition that nobody is ever "FORCED IT TO BE SO" and many pious Jews have sat in Jail rather than create a chilul Hashem or be a "Moisser".
When we trust more in THE USA than Hashem it becomes a problem.
A bigger problem is when Jews think it is acceptable to create a Chilul Hashem for the purpose of making a Kidush Hashem.
45
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:44 AM Levi Says:
response to DAVID
"The Glory of Hashem and the Torah are enhanced by following fair and ethical Labor practices"
Once you burn down The Tree Of Life the Torah.There is no point in "Enhancing" it with water.
46
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:59 AM tsvika55 Says:
typical Avi Weiss talmid
47
Aug 06, 2008 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:
To anon 08-06-2008 - 9:33 AM
Hebrew National is not good for any jew! it is traif as chazer. Pork is good enough for some Jews too unfortunately, That does not make it fine.
48
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:02 PM anonymous Says:
Kudos to Rabbi Herzberg! To be considered "Kosher"/frum we need to behave in a "Kosher"/ethical manner. Being reminded every so often -albeit from the occasional op-ed pieces in the New York Times- is not such a terrible thing. Chill guys!!!
08-06-2008 - 11:38 AM
A chilul Hashem is a terrible thing and there is no excuse for it Being ethical/kosher means following halacha. Rabbi Hertzfeld commited a chilul Hashem in secular law that is permitted so is eating treif.
49
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:02 PM David Says:
To Levy and Moisy;
A: Rabbi Herzfeld didn't act as a moiser, he repeated what is reported in the news, and what was already well known. He merely commented on it, which is halachicaly permissible.
B: Rabbi Herzfeld didn't burn down the Torah, Rubashkins lit the flame.
C: When Jewish leaders don't act, maybe it's time we placed out trust in others who have no self interests to protect, namely objective judges and the fairly instituted legal system here in the US, where no one is above the law.
D: Don't you guys get it? Even if Rubashkins is innocent, (not likely considering the mountain of evidence) the fact that they are under investigation, and have all this bad press is due to their own selfish desire to make money selling "Glatt Kosher" products produced in an "UNKOSHER, UNETHICAL MANNER". Now who's REALLY responsible for creating a Chillul Hashem to make a Kiddush Hashem?
(Hint, it begins with the letter "R")
50
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:12 PM anonymous Says:
A: Rabbi Herzfeld didn't act as a moiser, he repeated what is reported in the news, and what was already well known. He merely commented on it, which is halachicaly permissible.
IT IS NOT PERMISSIBLE BECAUSE HE ADDS RABBINIC LEGITIMACY TO THE CHARGES AGAINST ANOTHER JEW IN THE PUBLIC FORUM
B: Rabbi Herzfeld didn't burn down the Torah, Rubashkins lit the flame.
YOU CAN PUT OUT A FLAME BY EXTINGUISHING IT NOT THROWING GAS ON IT
C: When Jewish leaders don't act, maybe it's time we placed out trust in others who have no self interests to protect, namely objective judges and the fairly instituted legal system here in the US, where no one is above the law.
IF I GET THIS STRAIGHT
IF THE TORAH DOES NOT WORK IN YOUR EYES TRUST IN THE USA RATHER THAN HASHEM
D: Don't you guys get it? Even if Rubashkins is innocent, (not likely considering the mountain of evidence) the fact that they are under investigation,
I AM SHOCKED THAT A MORAL ETHICAL LAW ABIDING AMERICAN SUCH AS YOURSELF WOULD CONSIDER A CITIZEN OF THE USA GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT.
and have all this bad press
ENHANCED BY A RABBI
is due to their own selfish desire to make money
selling "Glatt Kosher" products produced in an "UNKOSHER,
(LIABLE SLANDER)
UNETHICAL MANNER"
(ALLEGED).
Now who's REALLY responsible for creating a Chillul Hashem to make a Kiddush Hashem?
YOU ARE DAVID
51
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:18 PM ANONYMOUS Says:
Read the papers and the response to the allegations. Rubashkin knew thatthere were kids there. The state told them so. They were waiting for the state to tell them who the kids were.
Who are we kidding. That was their excuse - they were waiting for the state to do their work for them?
Rubashkin always prided themselves on the best Hechsher. Don't stand in front of me and say that you are more Kosher that anyone else on one hand, while the other hand is trying tp pick someone's pocket.
52
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:23 PM Anonymous Says:
I thought we were not supposed to wash our laundry (especially in public) during the NINE DAYS
53
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:29 PM anonymous Says:
I love it when so called moral and ethical people like DAVID trample on the constitution of The USA and rights of Americans for the purpose of furthering ideals of thier own liking.
Further trampling on the Torah and Halacha for the purpose of thier personal moral principles.
In the end people like David expose thier corrupt minds like he just did
54
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:
I am a frum man, and though I may disagree with the way he runs his shul, but on this article, I agree 100%.
55
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:38 PM David Says:
I AM SHOCKED THAT A MORAL ETHICAL LAW ABIDING AMERICAN SUCH AS YOURSELF WOULD CONSIDER A CITIZEN OF THE USA GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN (LIABLE SLANDER)UNETHICAL MANNER"
(ALLEGEDINNOCENT....
I guess when your arguement is weak it helps to use all caps to make it look stronger :)
But seriously, your understanding of halacha and Torah is seriously warped when you believe that the Torah wants us to protect (alleged) law breakers and abusers of children rather than using legal recourse to stop such abuse and violations.
Really, do you think the Rubashkins mess will make us look better in the eyes of our neighbors, or Hashem's for that matter.
The damage done to our image will take decades to fix. You've obviously picked which side you stand with. I'm with Hashem, Rabbi Herzfeld, a Hechsher Tzedek, and following the duly instituted laws of the United States which do not contradict Torah Law. Let's see who was right after the trial and in the End of Days.
56
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:39 PM insider Says:
They found 200 blank green cards in the Agriprocessors office. All you guys defend Rubashkin without knowing the true facts.
All Rabbi Herzfeld is calling for is a faster investigation. The OU and Agudah have been trying to sweep this under the carpet for 2 years. That is why it is such a Shandeh now, because instead of trying to fix illegal or immoral activities, the OU and Agudah trusted Rubashkin to fix things himself.
It aint over till its over and its far from over my friends.
57
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:
Rabbi Herzfeld, if he really wanted to better the situation as he states in his article. Instead of posting his article in the ultra liberal NY Times who are known self hating Jews who will jump at any opportunity to smear frum yidden and Israel, he should have sent the article in a form of a private letter to Rubashkin and to the OU and to other Rabbis and not preach from the blasphemous high altar of the NY Times.
58
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:57 PM Chutzpah Says:
anonymous 11:02 said:
“When eating your egg at the suedas hamafsekes...”
Just remember. . .
. . . This year there is no suedas hamafsekes due
to Tisha b’Av starting motzei Shabbos!
59
Aug 06, 2008 at 12:59 PM Chutzpah Says:
By the way. . .
Think I’ll have a Rubashkin salami sandwich
for seudas shlishi!
60
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:00 PM Anonymous Says:
Insider
Did you see with your own eyes the 200 blank green cards as you claim to know the true facts.
And for your information the OU and Agudah are not responsible for Rubashkins worker hiring practices it's the government's responsibility so for you to say that they have been trying to sweep it under the rug is just plain nonfactual and ludicrous.
61
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:02 PM Anonymous Says:
Gentlemen, there is nothing and I mean nothing wrong with Rabbi Herzfeld's message. It's well intended and his only attackers are the idiots here who close their ears and eyes to the obvious, and to the Rubashkins that are now awake to government scrutiny of their misdeeds. It's time we took an acounting of ourselves to understand why we need to change. The Chillul of the Iowa mess is far reaching and we as Jews have to bring ourselves to a much higher standing in the community.
62
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:15 PM Anonymous Says:
Anon 1:02
One of the higher standards that we Jews have to adhere to is not calling other Jews idiots.
63
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:17 PM Anonymous Says:
It's terrible that he wrote what he did in the NYT.
That said, it doesn't excuse Rubashkins actions. We're frum jews and should be acting better than this to our employees.
64
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:
1:17
Those actions that you are attributing to Rubashkin have not been proven yet and are just allegations period.
As a frun Jew you have to be "Dan L'kaf Z'chus" so please let's keep an open mind.
65
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:42 PM Anonymous Says:
All I can say from my personal experience is that this witch hunt of Rubashkin has led to serious shortages in kosher beef products in the Catskills.
There was no beef products/burgers to be gotten in the two Shoprites in Liberty and Monticello and not at Wallmart as well.
66
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:50 PM David Says:
All I can say from my personal experience is that this witch hunt of Rubashkin has led to serious shortages in kosher beef products in the Catskills.
There was no beef products/burgers to be gotten in the two Shoprites in Liberty and Monticello and not at Wallmart as well.
Nu, so you'll lose some weight and your cholesterol will lower, you should be pleased!
67
Aug 06, 2008 at 01:55 PM Anonymous Says:
David,
If one of said rabbi's biggest donors was violating halachik or ethical practices, would he rebuke him in public ?
Hmalvin pnei chaveiro b'rabim en lo chelek b'olam haba.. what gives him the right to blast rubashkin in public ?
Motzei shem rah ? richilus ? lashon harah? these are torah aspects you do not believe in?
No one asked you to eat rubashkin, the issue does not pertain to you individually, you want to be a crussader ?
First be a mentch and post your real name, no one respects pashkevil's.
I am sure you have dirty laundry too.
There is halachikaly no evidence against rubashkin!!!
Show me 2 kosher eidim.. take them to a beis din!!!
Insofar that rubashkin maintains his innocence, as long as there is no PROOF al pi halacha that his food was anything other the hushchat, humlach k'din etc.. your accusing otherwise is a oiver on many aveiro's.. including gezel for stealing many jews livelyhood!!!
Yes indeed GEZEL..
I know guys like you, the guys that fire the rav that is too machmir..."we care so much about the hashgacha.. but who needs a kosher mechitza"
Rubashkin was greedy ?!?! I know from hundreds of sources that rubashkin gave out hundreds of millions to tzedaka..
Again, all yiou have is rumors.. your imagination.. v'chulu..
Hevei dan es kol adam l'chav zechus.. ever heard that line ?
68
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:02 PM MDN Says:
Rubashkin held that the law does apply to them. The question is not if the law is right or not but if you hire 57 underage workers when there is a law agaisnt it in Iowa that means you are totaly ignoring the law not just trying to bend the rules a bit. I honestly belive that a company who thinks that they are abobe the law certainly also feel that they are above the halacha
69
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:09 PM David Says:
First be a mentch and post your real name, no one respects pashkevil's.
I am sure you have dirty laundry too.
Of course I have dirty laundry, it's the Nine Days!
David Ilan (David Moshe Ben Shmuel)
70
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:11 PM Babishka Says:
Everything that you people here are saying about Agri is Lashon Hara, Avak Lashon Hara, Rechilus, Malshinus, and Motzi Shem Ra. Do you not believe in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty"? Of "Dan L'kaf z'chus"? How many of you have verified that these accusations are true, or you just believe them because they have been repeated so often in the goyish and the fryer media.
71
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:12 PM David Says:
And by the way, enough of "they can't tell if someone is 13 or 18 years old" Most of these immigrants look even younger than their age due to malnutrition in their home countries when they grew up. They are shorter of stature and less developed physically than an American born 18 year old. So, if a 13 year old came to apply for a job he might look as young as 10 or 11. No way could he be mistaken for an 18 year old!
72
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:16 PM to anaon 9:20 Says:
PLEASE POST THE NAME OF THE SUPERMARKET THAT YOU CLAIM HAS STOPPED SELLING RUBASHKIN MEAT. I WILL DRIVE/FLY DOWN THERE TO CHECK IT OUT FOR MYSELF.
DID YOU REPLACE THE KOSHER MEAT WITH ANOTHER BRAND? DO YOU HATE RUBASHKIN THAT MUCH THAT YOU WANT OTHER JEWS TO EAT PIG INSTEAD???
73
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:17 PM anonymous Says:
This David guy is a legislator,lawyer,rabbi, dietician...he is one of those people that know whats best for everybody else.
It reminds me of a story when I was in Yeshiva and sombody snitched that we were flipping baseball cards, they were taken away. When we confronted the snitcher he said "they are so expensive anyway why do you need them"
74
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:
MDN
Hypothetically you are correct.
75
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:22 PM Bill Says:
It's intresting that it says when a man dies, God will judge man based on his own judgment, meaning God will say what do you think I should do to a man that commited such and such of a prohibition, and the man will say that his punishment should be (fill in the blank)... so Hashem will say well you were the one who has done such, so you will be liable to the punishment that you thought you were prescribing for somebody else.
All these people who are jumping on Rubashkins neck and feel that his financial neck ought to be cut off just because of some possible (it's only being investigated, no actual indictments etc.) violations (remember that it's a plant with a thousand workers, so there is bound to be things that take place that shouldn't), just ought to be wary that when Hashem judges them for their aveiros, Hashem will be as stringent as you are when you pass judgement on others. It pays to have empathy towards other yidden, because then Hashem will have empathy towards you.
76
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:
David
Just like PETA if you want to be a vegetarian that's fine, but please don't force down my throat. Thank You!!
77
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:42 PM anonymous Says:
I find it hypocritical for a Rabbi or any Jew to disparage another Jew in public.
The Rabbi who wrote the OP-Ed in the NYT
is weilding his sword for Kasherous and Moral ethics, Yet he is obviously not makpid on Hilchos Loshon Hora or Bein Adam L'Chaveiro, I just don't know how anybody especially a Rabbi (forget this David guy because he is just a flollower) can go into Elul and the Yomim Narayim and Yom Kippur with that chet on thier head and not be absolved of this horrible public shaming an aveirah of bein adom l'chaveiro that can never be fully retracted even if Rabbi Hertzfeld wanted to do the right thing and ask the Rubashkins for mechilla.
PS The Rubashkins if guilty can allways do tikun and teshuvah.
78
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:51 PM Anonymous Says:
Just because someone is willing to break laws when it comes to money, does not mean he will be willing to allow people to eat non-kosher. (Mumar L'Tayavon does not imply Lifnei Ivver). Learn some halacha guys!
79
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:
All these people who are jumping on Rubashkins neck and feel that his financial neck ought to be cut off just because of some possible (it's only being investigated, no actual indictments etc.) violations
Possible allegations??? How funny that statement is! 400+ are in jail now for those possible investigations. Must all be innocent I presume.
80
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:55 PM Anonymous Says:
David
Let's be frank, you're not worried about any body's weight or cholesterol all you care about is your own twisted agenda against Rubashkin.
81
Aug 06, 2008 at 02:58 PM Anonymous Says:
What kind of tikun and teshuvah is there for feeding treife to the unwitting public for 22 years? It is a mitzva lefarsem to stay away from their products.
82
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:11 PM Charlie Hall Says:
"I am disgusted to read that there are individuals that think it was right of Rubashkin to hire 13 year old children."
Me, too. Would you let your 13 year old son work in a slaughterhouse? There are good reasons for child labor laws.
Whether Agriprocessors actually hired underage workers or not has not been proven. But the idea that people would think it is ok is itself a chilul HaShem.
"There is halachikaly no evidence against rubashkin!!! "
Is there any against ConAgra, the owner of Hebrew National? Yet its product gets blasted in frum forums all the time.
"DO YOU HATE RUBASHKIN THAT MUCH THAT YOU WANT OTHER JEWS TO EAT PIG INSTEAD???"
I'm eating vegetarian. It is the Nine Days!
83
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:14 PM Charlie Hall Says:
"After you finish reading below tell me if you would you eat in this rabbi's house."
Absolutely. Everything listed is in accordance with halachah and what is acceptible custom in my own frum community. Childcare during services is particularly commendable.
84
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:23 PM Anonymous Says:
I just don't know how anybody especially a Rabbi (forget this David guy because he is just a flollower) can go into Elul and the Yomim Narayim and Yom Kippur with that chet on thier head
PS The Rubashkins if guilty can allways do tikun and teshuvah.
Uh, just a reminder of what took place in Monsey two years ago, right before the yomim noraim. How many yidden there were crying on Yom Kippur "ki lchol hoam bishgaga"? With Rubashkin there is no "bishgaga". Their lack of neemanus is open for all to see and the fact that the majority of their products are not kosher doesn't help. Put two and two together and you realize that it is assur to patronize them. When the truth comes out about the lack of kashrus, don't start crying "bishgaga". You have all been duly warned. The "cheit" is on the heads of those that continue to cover up for this criminal enterprise.
85
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:26 PM Gedalya Says:
anon 2:58 PM:
After all, everybody knows that the Rubashkins are serving pork. Oh, yes, the OU and weissmandel are in on their dirty scandal too. Grow up dude. People like you ought not to be on the internet (internet wasn't created for 17 year old bored Telzers).
86
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:32 PM Anonymous Says:
No, they're not serving pork. They are changing labels from non-kosher to kosher, from kosher to "glatt kosher". More than one former mashgiach has testified to that effect. Weissmandel gets paid a hefty salary to look the other way (he even admitted to the WSJ that he has nothing to do with packaging and shipping) and the OU gets paid for their endorsement.
87
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:35 PM Anonymous Says:
Anon 2:58
What are you hocking ah tcheinik - Rubashkin has always maintained reliable hashgochos since their inception such as the KAJ,Rabbi Weissmandel, OU etc. even Margareten has shechted by them. so for you to blatantly state with out any basis that they have been feeding treif for over 22 years is simply and utterly reprehensible.
88
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:
Funny you should mention the KAJ. Any idea why they dropped their hashgocho?
89
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:48 PM Fed Up Reform Jew Says:
The NYT ran a separate article about the charges filed against Agri by the State of Iowa. This is not a case of one or two children working at the plant. Iowa found FIFTY-SEVEN (57) children working at the plant, a violation of state and federal laws.
The Feds also found BLANK green-cards at the plant - Agri was SELLING them to the same workers they were exploiting.
This is pretty bad news for Rubashkin & co.
90
Aug 06, 2008 at 03:59 PM Anonymous Says:
At least he should have had the the courtesy of calling Rabbi Yisroel Salanter a Rabbi even if this guy isn't
91
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:00 PM tudress Says:
Where in the world did all you 'Motzo'ei Shem Ra' mongers get this idea that there were 13 yr olds working at the plant???
Your putting your faith in this 'rabbi' who dosent even learn pirkey avos where we learn 'hevu mesunim badin' - 'be patient in your judgment', and he gets all his allegations from the leftist media and primarily the forward which bashes just about anything jewish...???
which government document ever said that 13 yr olds were working there???
Now THAT is unethical and disgracefully immoral, YOU are no rabbi, a rabbi is someone who learns choishen mishpat and hilchos dayonus wher you learn to base your judgment on FACTS not baloney from a media looking for stories that'll get them more hits/publicity = more $$$ with total disregard of tarnishing anyone/companies image.
If you realy cared about 'morals' mr. rabbi, you would get your facts straight before your MOITZY SHEM RAH in PUBLIC and as you say 'In the 9 DAYS leading up to our saddest day in jewish history', and a 'rabbi' like you? what is YOUR hachonos- prepearation for this holy day which we ought to be in unity? you publicly accuse your fellow jews of serving R'L Lo Aleinu Treiffe meat to thousands of yidden - of being MACHTIEI HORABIM - of such serious accusations PUBLICLY WITHOUT SHAME and all based on ZERO facts of his own, without any facts that actualy PROVE the RUBASHKIN OWNERSHIP or the SHOCHTIM of any intentional wrongdoing, how on earth can a 'rabbi' claim such a title while doing such acts repulsive to Yiddishkeit and simple ethics and morals, IN the 9 days - GEVALD this man ought to sit and cry locked in his room from now untill tisha b'av and beg mechila on all 4 from the people he accused.
The fact-finding mision by all those rabbis last week from the OU, NCSY.... was NOT enough for you??? SHAME ON YOU!
I for one as well as all the people that I know, will continue eating Rubashkins, for the forseeable future, as long as I don't see any reason that the Shechita will be Treif.
T'shuva = Geulah... may it be now.
92
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:03 PM hh Says:
It went to the AG in Iowa because the local DA did not want to touch this case in an election year. Read the article. He specifically dropped it in the AG's hands. The DA wants to get re-elected, but will not if he indicts the owner of the largest employer in his county.
There are Federal laws and State laws on minors working in factories, especially meat plants. No one is allowed, even with 'working papers'. It is simply too dangerous. The laws were made to protect our youths from situation exactly as shown in the Agriprocessors case.
I am shocked at the amount of 'religous Jews' that actually condone this behavior. It might be OK to do it in New York or Brooklyn but it is not acceptable here in Iowa..
93
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:
Anon 3:39
You are falsely implying and thereby being "Motzi Shem Rah" that KAJ has dropped their hashgocho from Rubashkin due to kashrus violations. In fact if you would read KAJ's letter to Rubashkin nothing could be further from the truth. The letter was dated Oct.16th 2007 and stated that the termination will take effect April 16th 2008 (six months later). So if there were any actual kashrus violations/problems KAJ would immediately pull out their certification and not continue it for another six month.
94
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:15 PM David Says:
This David guy is a legislator,lawyer,rabbi, dietician...he is one of those people that know whats best for everybody else.
I'm very impressed! You think I am all of the above? There's not enough time in the day for me to do all of those professions. But you are getting warm. I'm actually one of the above, care to guess which?
95
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:17 PM David Says:
David
Let's be frank, you're not worried about any body's weight or cholesterol all you care about is your own twisted agenda against Rubashkin.
Actually, I do care, who likes to be paged on their day off to schlep into the hospital to take care of some Frum Fresser who overate for years and is now having a heart attack? If all of you ate less meat, I'd have more time off for myself!
96
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:35 PM to anaon 9:20 Says:
A group of 25 Orthodox rabbis visiting Postville on a trip, issued the company a clean bill of health.
The Orthodox delegation reported this week that the Postville plant bears no resemblance to its image as a place where safety lapses are routine and workers allegedly are abused and underpaid.
In the course of their one-day visit, coordinated through the National Council of Young Israel, an Orthodox synagogue association, the rabbis toured the plant and met with its recently hired compliance officer, the mayor of Postville and a Presbyterian minister.
Some of the rabbis also met with representatives of St. Bridget's Catholic Church, which has taken the lead in ministering to families affected by the raid.
“At this point I don't see any reason why someone should not buy things from Agriprocessors,” Rabbi Daniel Moscowitz, the regional director of Chabad of Illinois and the president of the Chicago Rabbinical Council, told JTA. “They run a very impressive operation. They're very dedicated to making sure that everything is being done in the most appropriate way possible."
97
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:40 PM Yankel Burech Says:
Reshoim Arirem ,every person who has a part in creating this Rishes against Rubashkin is osid liten Din. The rishes against a jew only because of sinhas chinom is unfanthomble,,
98
Aug 06, 2008 at 04:44 PM Rav Schwartzmantel Says:
13 -year-old boys make better beefburgers and cut steaks much better than 18-yr-olds.Spanish-speaking illegal low-paid people make the meat more kosher than Yiddish-speaking,long- bearded dishonest Jews Soon there will be no kosher meat,only chassidishe meat.The long peyos make the meat tastier.I hope that a group of honest b'nei Torah businessmen will put together an honest law- abiding ,G-D-fearing enterprise that will treat the animals with care and be good to their employees and customers. In the meantime,let the animals enjoy their new lease on life.I
99
Aug 06, 2008 at 05:11 PM Anonymous Says:
Rav Schwartzmantel
Your unadulterated hatred towards chassidim knows no bounds and comes right thru your hateful comment. Your disgusting comment "The long peyos make the meat tastier" etc. shines a light on your dark heart which is full of hate of chassidim. Shame on you!!
100
Aug 06, 2008 at 06:02 PM anonymous Says:
I love it when people like David who have a twisted agenda with no substance start falling apart like a cheap suit
101
Aug 06, 2008 at 06:03 PM Charlie Hall Says:
"about the charges"
It is worth repeating that other than the hiring of illegal immigrants (which Agriprocessors admitted to), no charges against Agriprocessors or its managers have been proven.
"A group of 25 Orthodox rabbis visiting Postville on a trip, issued the company a clean bill of health."
I still don't see what that VIP trip, announced days in advance and arranged by Agriprocessors, accomplished. We would not rely on a kashrut agency that only does inspections that are announced days in advance.
102
Aug 06, 2008 at 06:25 PM Kashrus Pro Says:
I cant beleive what I am reading here on this blog. We have people who are bashing yidin and kashrus agencies for no reason. If you had any clue what went into giving hashgocha you would shut your mouth. I've been doing this for over 20 years and its not easy. We need to make a living too. The people in OU Kashrus are bigger shomray torah u'mitzvos than any of you will EVER be. To make comments about them (or any other agency) is completely insane.
Some mishugaim are posting about the pay rates. The workers themselves said they got a minimum of 10 an hour. I dont know where yall got the $6 an hour thing from??? Even if they paid them minimum wage, there is no reason to pay more if people will work for it.
Others had to say something about child labor. I go into companies and I see the Labor Dept sign hanging there (not that most of the workers can read or understand english anyway!) but teen agers are allowed to work a certain amount of hours a week. I dont recall the law saying that they could not work specific jobs. Use your G-d given brains if you have them to use and jsut think for a second HOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE SOMEONE THAT YOUNG WORKING IN A PLANT LIKE THAT?! It makes no sense to me and if you were a right thinking kind of person it would make no sense to you either. What I would beleive would be if these low life illegals forged their documents (which they must have!) and also faked their ages. You never know with these people. Being that the Govt has given us NO way to check if anyone is legal or not, this would have gotten past them.
103
Aug 06, 2008 at 06:30 PM Anonymous Says:
The low life scavengers smell blood and are DESPERATELY trying to BLOW up any shtikle negative report in the hopes of bringing Rubashkin down - Too bad it will not happen
you can rant and rave till you are blue and green (with envy) Rubashkin's ONLY real problem is keeping up with demand - That's the truth and the truth hurts - The more poison hatred that you spew from under your rock the more it will hurt YOU as it luckily is having zero effect on most erliche yidden who can see through the all garbage.
104
Aug 06, 2008 at 06:55 PM Anonymous Says:
kashrus pro,
you are contradicting yourself.
if ' Being that the Govt has given us NO way to check if anyone is legal or not, this would have gotten past them', how could orthodox rabbis give Rubashkin a clean bill of health".
105
Aug 06, 2008 at 07:24 PM David Says:
The low life scavengers smell blood and are DESPERATELY trying to BLOW up any shtikle negative report in the hopes of bringing Rubashkin down - Too bad it will not happen
you can rant and rave till you are blue and green (with envy)
That's right. All of us, who care about Kashrus and Bein Adom L'Chavero are desperately jealous of Rubashkin's success and for years we have been planning to bring them down.
Want to know how we did it? It wasn't easy! First, we smuggled in hundreds of illegal immigrants, paid for their travel to Iowa, brought them to Rubashkins. And here's the clever part. We coached them what to say and how to answers Rubashkin's Human Resources Managers in order to get jobs. We then waited a few years so we could build up a nice fat dossier of violations, and especially of our illegals being abused. It wasn't easy, I tell you. Time and again, we had to convince them to stay and be abused so that we could put our nefarious plan into effect, after all, the end justifies the means. Then, when we were good and ready, we blew the whistle on them and told the Gov't who by the way approved our plan way in advance, after all we paid them!
There you have it. How a bunch of Orthodox, Yirei Shamayim, Torah observing, Kashrus observing Jews brought down the largest most successful Kosher meat plant in the US. And we did all becuase we were jealous of their success!
106
Aug 06, 2008 at 07:24 PM Postville resident Says:
Sorry to inform any Agri Bashers out there:
I am witnessing the slow but steady rebuilding of Agri. Even I was not sure if the raid would cause irreversible damages. Yet, the steadfast determination on the part of the owners, employees, aand local community has had its effect. Agri is nearing its pre-raid copacity.
107
Aug 06, 2008 at 07:50 PM Anonymous Says:
Oh puleez weve been throuh this 15 times on VIN, it must be bored kids repeating the "why did KAJ drop the hashgacha line"
KAJ and rubashkin had a disagreement, it was about KAJ certifying empire.. thats all... NOTHING to do with kashrus.. so ruashkin went to weismandel at nitra for the hechsher.
No one in the frum world hires underaged workers ?!?
I worked at a large pizza factory in new york at 15.. big shmiel I told them I was 18 and sure looked it.
Was the plant kosher ? yes there was a mashgiach temidi.. the owner never came around.. the workers were hispanic and I dont know or care if they were legal.
108
Aug 06, 2008 at 08:53 PM Anonymous Says:
i once wondered why in so many smaller communities there are so many people that hate a ruv
i realised the following (my owh theory and you
all can disagree)that every time there is a din torah one person wins and one looses. now the one that lost is very angry at the ruv (because he feels he was right. if not he would not have to go to a din torah. so the only reason he lost is because the ruv is no good) so the ruv has one enemy now. but the person that won the din torah does NOT love the ruv as much as the loser hates the ruv. he feels he won because he ws right and the ruv saw that. so we have an imbalance 1 person hates the ruv nd one doesnt care either way.
now imagine this after 5 years the ruv builds up a list of enemies ... and not as many people that love him.
now the same is witha business or hechsher that hires abd fire people. we have alot of people here with hate towards them.
people we need to start loving each other. no matter what!! ahavs chinum.
if we dont have anything good to say about a fellow yid then let us be silent.
love love
and we be zoichu to be eating this tisha bav with meshiach inthe 3rd beis hamikdash
109
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:09 PM Kashrus Pro Says:
If the management of Agri couldnt tell that the papers were forged, how do you expect anyone else to know it. Of course if the story is correct - and I cant be sure about it considering it is the times - the only way the illegals were caught was during the raid.
As it is, all that has been going on is innuendo and heresay. There is no proof to anything and there have been NO charges.
110
Aug 06, 2008 at 09:55 PM Anonymous Says:
A RABBI NEEDS TO LOOK BEYOND THE SIMPLE SHULCHON ORUCH TO GIVE SOMEONE A HECHSER. HE NEEDS TO CHECK THE BOOKS TO SEE THAT THEY MATCH, NO THEFT FROM SUPPLIES, TAXES, ETC (THAT WOULD HAVE COUGHT FINKEL-MONSEY) AND NOW NEEDS TO LOOK THE HUMAN RESOURCE DEPARTMENT (THAT WOULD AVOID THE EMBARASSMENT AS IN RUBASHKIN)
111
Aug 06, 2008 at 10:01 PM Anonymous Says:
IF ALL THE LOSHON HORAH IS CORRECT. A RABBI NEEDS TO LOOK BEYOND THE SIMPLE SHULCHON ORUCH TO GIVE SOMEONE A HECHSER. HE NEEDS TO CHECK THE BOOKS TO SEE THAT THEY MATCH, NO THEFT FROM SUPPLIERS, TAXES, ETC (THAT WOULD HAVE COUGHT FINKEL-MONSEY) AND NOW NEEDS TO LOOK THE HUMAN RESOURCE DEPARTMENT (THAT WOULD AVOID THE EMBARASSMENT AS IN RUBASHKIN)
112
Aug 06, 2008 at 10:44 PM insiders view Says:
I dont recall the law saying that they could not work specific jobs. Use your G-d given brains if you have them to use and jsut think for a second HOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE SOMEONE THAT YOUNG WORKING IN A PLANT LIKE THAT?! It makes no sense to me and if you were a right thinking kind of person it would make no sense to you either. What I would beleive would be if these low life illegals forged their documents (which they must have!) and also faked their ages. You never know with these people. Being that the Govt has given us NO way to check if anyone is legal or not, this would have gotten past them.
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You should be the one using your brains if u have any . The obvious answer is that agri-rubash new they were illegal and under age but because the company helped them with thier (illegal) papers . Whats the difference of the age . Once you forge papers you put any believable age on it . And btw they found in the agri-rubash office blank green cards. Does this make you wonder or is it just a coincidence?? Get your head out of the sand box and smell the coffee. It aint over till its over. And its far from over.!
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Aug 06, 2008 at 11:48 PM twerski Says:
thats RABBI Yisroel Salanter to you mr Shmuel Herzfeld
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Aug 07, 2008 at 12:13 AM Bill Says:
Too bad we live in a democracy, and the few people that hate Rubashkin are not seeing their hatred transalate as less revenue for the Rubashkins. The majority of us frum yidden see the apparent innocence of Rubashkin, and continue to patronize them. Now I'll climb back in my hole, and let the haters continue their hateful self righteous monologues.
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Aug 07, 2008 at 01:00 AM Anonymous Says:
listen up every one stop fighting and put yourself into his shoes what would you do if 13 year old strong kids come and ask for work wouldnt you hire them if that could save you millions of dollars per year dont be silly rubashkin didnt force any kids to work for them
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Aug 07, 2008 at 02:47 AM Lock & Load Says:
We still buy and eat there meats...
This is good addvertising....
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Aug 07, 2008 at 05:55 AM Anonymous Says:
Underage workers are NOT allowed to work certain jobs or work with dangerous equipment even if they are only working 16 hours per week!
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Aug 07, 2008 at 06:15 AM ANONYMOUS Says:
THis is the story tha will not go away.
Why does this not happen to the other Glatt meat companies (Alle, Globex (International), Abeles & Heymann, 999)??
Because they are jealous of Agri's success? There is enough business all around for all of them, the market is growing exponentially, all have success to a degree.
Because of rapid growth? Alle moved from Williamsburg to the Hebrew National plant in Maspeth. THeir growth was just as hard, but Weinstock and Hollander made a commitment to be abreast of USDA and other governmant regulations tha were as important as Kashrus is. Chaimowitz started as a butcher store in Flatbush and expanded slowly until he became what he is today.
a & H has been making their product for less than a year. 999 has been around since before the war.
So we see that the other 4 companies have had all different experiences, but have not had a breakdown like Agri.
I would think that it would be a purpose disregard for government regulations that did Agri in. An attitude that they will do what they want until they get caught. I am not against Agri or the family, but, as the owner of a store that has bought from all of them over the years, that is what I have seen. Order from any of them. Who will send you a complete order? Who will leave you hanging? Which companies can you get the owner when there is a problem?
My word is as reliable or unreliable as anyone else that has written on this blog. I have my opinion and you have yours. I will not call other people vicous names, like I have seen written above. But I have never seen so many people defend Rubashkin with so many lame excuses and think that this is derech Torah.
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Aug 07, 2008 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:
Anon 6:15
You're admitting in your comment that you have a beef (no pun intended)with Rubashkin, so of course you conclude that all the excuses by the defenders of Rubashkin are lame...how convenient.
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Aug 07, 2008 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:
Anonymous Says:
Anon 6:15
You're admitting in your comment that you have a beef (no pun intended)with Rubashkin, so of course you conclude that all the excuses by the defenders of Rubashkin are lame...how convenient.
08-07-2008 - 9:55 AM
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You are right. The excuses are just that - excuses. And they are lame.
If you want to be a doctor, not only do you have to go to medical school, but you must have great grades in high school, college, do great on the boards, have a residency and internship.
The same is true if you want to go into the meat business. Knowing how to cut meat and press the buttons on a cash register is not enough. You have to learn a lot of things and do it better than anyone else.
If you take shortcuts, then it will bite you in the end. If you grow your business too fast, then either you have a committment and learn while you go along, or you don't.
My opinion is that Rubashkin did'nt have that committment and took shortcuts. While it may be great to give tzedaka to the masses, ADAM KAROV L'ATZMO. A man is responsible to himself. He should have put the money into the human infrastructute and now you see the result of shortcuts.
I do not mind having a discussion on this, but it should be a civil discussion. My yidishkeit, hashkofo and yiras shomayim are not on the table. The subject is why Agri got into this mess. My answer is tha he did it to himself.
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Aug 07, 2008 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:
Anon 6:15
In your comment you complain regarding not getting complete orders... Well if this behavior continues soon you won't get anything not just incomplete orders but zero..nada...kapish
And the reason why the other companies that you mention have not had these problems, first it's due to the fact that non of them are even close to the size of Rubashkin and it's because of their size that the union has tried to unionize and due to Rubashkin's refusal which is their right the union has been doing anything and everything to try and shut them down as they have done to other non kosher meat packing co. it's a fact.
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Aug 07, 2008 at 10:21 AM Anonymous Says:
He should have put the money into the human infrastructute and now you see the result of shortcuts.
correction - that should be human infrastructure. That does not mean higher wages, exclusively. That meant the personnel to train other personnel properly in govt relations, haccp, osha, work practices, work ethics, etc. And top management has to know more than anyone else, be smarter and do it better. Otherwise, that business is doomed.
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Aug 07, 2008 at 10:29 AM Anonymous Says:
And the reason why the other companies that you mention have not had these problems, first it's due to the fact that non of them are even close to the size of Rubashkin
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When Rubashkin was growing, he still tried to take shortcuts. HE should have been even better, now tat he was big. What kind of excuse is that? He has the personnel, the money, but it seems that you claim he does not have the responsibility.
and it's because of their size that the union has tried to unionize and due to Rubashkin's refusal which is their right the union has been doing anything and everything to try and shut them down as they have done to other non kosher meat packing co. it's a fact.
08-07-2008 - 10:15 AM
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Alle has a union. International has one union in New York, and another union in New Jersey. What difference would a union make if you are talking about illegal immigration? Rubashkin was already told that he has to negotiate with the illegals.
PLease come up with some true 'facts'
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Aug 07, 2008 at 10:33 AM Anonymous Says:
Anonymous Says:
Anon 6:15
In your comment you complain regarding not getting complete orders... Well if this behavior continues soon you won't get anything not just incomplete orders but zero..nada...kapish
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We have had Glatt meat before Rubashkin and we will have Glatt meat after Rubashkin.
That is, if does not clean up his act. No one wants to see him go under. Really.
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Aug 07, 2008 at 03:12 PM Charlie Hall Says:
Anonymous 10:15 AM:
You wrote,
"the union has tried to unionize and due to Rubashkin's refusal which is their right"
That is not true. Under US law there are circumstances under which an employer is required to negotiate with a union. Agriprocessors tried to argue that their hiring of illegal immigrants exempted them from this requirement, and lost in court. (I'm still amazed at the chutpah of their argument.)
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Aug 07, 2008 at 03:13 PM Charlie Hall Says:
"No one wants to see him go under. Really."
I second that sentiment.
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Aug 09, 2008 at 10:11 PM anonymous Says:
Charlie Hall Says:
Anonymous 10:15 AM:
You wrote "the union has tried to unionize and due to Rubashkin's refusal which is their right"
That is not true. Under US law there are circumstances under which an employer is required to negotiate with a union. Agriprocessors tried to argue that their hiring of illegal immigrants exempted them from this requirement, and lost in court. (I'm still amazed at the chutpah of their argument.)
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So - all they had to do was fire the illegal immigrants (which they knew about) and 1) they did nott have to negotiate with the union and 2) their immigrant prblbem would have dissappeared?
All their current problems would have gone if they has taken action last January?????
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Sep 13, 2008 at 10:32 AM Chana Says:
Don't trust the establishment. Eat vegetarian!!!