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Postville, IA - A Questionable Story Of Rabbi Yisrael Salanter Becomes Focal Point On Kashrus Ethics Debate

Published on:   Aug 12, 2008 at 01:11 PM
News Source: JTA Blog
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Postville, IA - Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld (he of NYTimes Op-Ed fame) and his congregant Nat Lewin (famed attorney and Agriprocessors defender are having a little intra-shul spat over the ethics of kosher slaughter. Lewin called Herzfeld (his own rabbi!) a “vigilante” in his response  to Herzfeld’s Times article and described his reasoning there as “fallacious.”

Now Herzfeld is back for another round, though with the stipulation that he won’t “engage in a back and forth.” Oh, well maybe just one more time.

Herzfeld’s response below.

Response to Nat Lewin

by Shmuel Herzfeld

Nat Lewin is one of our finest congregants and has always been a terrific advocate for the Jewish people. Obviously, our entire community is struggling with this difficult issue which asks us to balance the requirement of due process while not turning our backs on heart wrenching allegations that strike at the core of our identity.

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I will not engage in a back and forth argument in this forum, but it is important to address the argument about the legitimacy of the position cited in the name of Rabbi Yisrael Salanter.

Many sources on this topic are cited in an article by Rabbi Avi Gisser, Chief Rabbi of Ofra, Israel in his article for Ma’aglei Tzedek, an organization in Israel that seeks to unite laws of kashrut with concerns for how workers are treated. The article is available on line at www.edah.org/mtzenglish.pdf .

The story about Rav Salanter was one story from a genre of Rav Salanter stories that might have been cited. Here is a small portion of Rav Gisser’s article:

According to Rav Kook, what our generation needs, especially now, is to add fuel to the great flame of social justice that stems from a deep awe of G-d. Three anecdotes from the life of Rabbi Salanter demonstrate this. Once, Rabbi Salanter visited a new matzah bakery in order to check its work practices and level of kashrut. He reviewed all the manufacturing procedures extensively and observed the intense labor and toil of the employees. At the end of Rabbi Salanter’s visit, the bakery owner proudly asked him, “What does the rabbi say?” He answered, “The Gentiles accuse us, G-d forbid, of using the blood of Christian children in matzah. While this is not the case, from what I have seen here, there is indeed a violation of the prohibition on blood in food. The blood of the workers is mixed with the matzah! I will not certify this bakery as kosher.” In another case, Rabbi Salanter was asked what demands particular attention when baking matzah. He answered: “One must be scrupulous not to yell at the woman kneading the dough.” He was also quoted as saying, “It is prohibited to enhance your mitzvot at the expense of others.” One day Rabbi Salanter was hosted by a rich man. When he performed the ritual hand-washing before the meal, he used a sparing amount of water. He was asked, “Doesn’t the Torah say it is praiseworthy to wash with a lot of water?” He answered,

“I can only do that in my own home. Here, however, I must consider the needs of the servant who must carry the buckets of water.” When attending large dinners, Rabbi Salanter also hurried to finish eating quickly in consideration of the waiters and other workers, who had to wait until the end of the meal to go home. “Justice, justice you shall pursue in order that you may live in and inherit the land.”

Rav Gisser’s article is published with a powerful statement immediately following it. Here is a portion of that statement:

Out of concern for Israel’s moral and humane character as a Jewish State, respecting all its citizens, in which justice is one of its basic principles, we wish to announce a social seal, committing all who believe in justice and morality. We hereby request all business proprietors to respect the dignity of their workers and visitors, both regarding to conditions of employment, and also assuring accessibility to people with disabilites. We ask all for whom the Jewish humane character of Israel is important to be aware of just consumerism, and to buy only in places holding the social seal.

It is signed by many of our greatest rabbis including, Rabbi Ya’akov Ariel, Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, Rabbi Yo’el Bin-Nun, Rabbi Chaim Drukman Rabbi Mordechay Elon, Rabbi Benni Lau and Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein.


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Read Comments (46)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Aug 12, 2008 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:

But no where in any of the stories quoted does it mention that he refused to give a hechsher to the Matzoh bakery. That is what was stated as fact in the original article.

A Rabbi is supposed to be honest in all that he does & says, not just look good in the pulpit.

2

 Aug 12, 2008 at 01:33 PM Anonymous Says:

A Rabbi is supposed to be honest in all that he does & says, not just look good in the pulpit.
08-12-2008 - 1:20 PM

So -what do you call those 25 rabbi's that saw the plant for a whole 3 hours and declared it to be 'kosher'? I think that was a bigger disgrace to Yiddishkeit.

3

 Aug 12, 2008 at 01:54 PM Anonymous Says:

quote
of our greatest rabbis including, Rabbi Ya’akov Ariel, Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, Rabbi Yo’el Bin-Nun, Rabbi Chaim Drukman Rabbi Mordechay Elon, Rabbi Benni Lau and Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein.

since when did these people become our rabbis?
reformers are not our rabbis
thanks vos iz neiz for bringing us this garbage and not pointing out this fact

4

 Aug 12, 2008 at 01:59 PM Babishka Says:

The funny thing is that I have heard similar stories featuring the Chofetz Chayim, the Baal Shem Tov, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Yidden will hear these stories and then fill in the name of their own Rebbe.

5

 Aug 12, 2008 at 02:05 PM anonymous Says:

Shmuel Hertzfeld exposed himself when he printed his front page OP-ED in The NYT to be a disingenuous, fame seeker at the expense of Klal Yisroel and created a Chilul Hashem in front of millions feeding fodder to the millions of haters of Jews and the Jewish frum haters.

Hashem is allways quick to point out false leaders as allways like Shmuel Hertzfeld, they fall apart like a cheap suit.

6

 Aug 12, 2008 at 02:27 PM Chacham Mah Nishtana Says:

Unfortunately both of them are being Megaleh Ponim Batorah. The Torah Laws between one man and another mostly refer from one jew to another. This has nothing to do with racism, it's like a club, members get special services. In this case the Torah specificaly states "L'olam Bohem Tavodu".
That doesn't negate the jew's requirement to follow his host country's current secular laws (don't forget that slavery was standard practice not too long ago), but it has nothing to do with "kosher".

7

 Aug 12, 2008 at 02:37 PM Chuck Ponzi Says:

It is signed by many of our greatest rabbis including, Rabbi Ya’akov Ariel, Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, Rabbi Yo’el Bin-Nun, Rabbi Chaim Drukman Rabbi Mordechay Elon, Rabbi Benni Lau and Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein.

LOL!!!!!!

8

 Aug 12, 2008 at 02:45 PM Charlie Hall Says:

"since when did these people become our rabbis?
reformers are not our rabbis "

Some of the people mentioned are among the greatest living rabbis in the world today. How can a frum blog permit such a comment?

9

 Aug 12, 2008 at 03:31 PM fahrfrumt Says:

Anon 1:33
If one or two people had gone there and declared it "kosher", I would be inclined to side with you somewhat, as there has been a vast amount of negative media outlining the so-called mistreatment of animals and workers.
25 people (forget that they are Rabbis, let's give them as much benefit of the doubt as we give all regular people) spent a great ammount of time there and came to one conclusion. The place is "kosher". Don't you think that if even one person of 25 had seen or heard about the so-called mistreatment they would blow the wistle?
You are now going to tell me that either 25 regular people are all a part of a big consiracy, were bought off, or just don't give a damn and went there for the picturesque scenery.
The other explanation might be that Rubashkin threatened all the worker's there that if they would tell these 25 regular people about the "mistreatment" they would be taken down to the methamphetamine lab in the basement and be put to death.
What methamphetamine lab you ask?
The one that the major news stations reported was found in Agri during the raid.
Why do I mention it?
Because that's going to be your final argument. The news stations and newspapers are reporting it! We all know that everything in the media is biased. What better cause to champion! The illegal (yes, not undocumented, illegal) aliens are being mistreated by the rabbis in Postville. And what else? The rabbis are also mistreating the animals. Let's call Nightline and do an expose.
So as you jump on this bandwagon remember that 25 regular people saw one thing, and the leftist biased media sees another thing. Oh, Hechsher Tzedek also sees that same thing. Must be true, they aren't going to profit from any of this. They aren't going to charge to do inspections. What? They would? I thought they are championing a "jewish" cause! How disgraceful.

10

 Aug 12, 2008 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:

I wrote the first comment & I still stand by it. The article as written made an unsubstantiated and unprovable statement regarding Rav Yisroel Salanter, which caused monetary damage to a Jewish concern.

A Hashgochoh is given on the Kashrus of the product, NOT the producer. If the Kashrus of the producer was an issue, then - based on the article in the New York Times - its author is NOT Kosher!

Did the OU or any of the other Hashgochos obligate themselves to ensure that there was full legal compliance to US law? The last time I checked, there were no violations of any Halachic issues - according to the Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deoh in Hilchos Shechita & Hilchos Treifos. Unless my Yoreh Deoh is missing a few Simonim, which only the "Tzedek" people (both Uri & it's twin Hechsher) have in their Shulchan Aruch.

11

 Aug 12, 2008 at 03:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Too bad these people don't apply their beliefs to the Palestinians who live in the Holy Land under Zionist oppression. People must never suffer at the hands of Torah-believing Jews, who must never benefit from the suffering of any people, whether in Eretz Yisroel or Postville, Iowa.

12

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:05 PM Chareidi Leumi Says:

anon 1:54:

Any one of those Rabbis knows 1000 times more torah than you could ever know! They also all are manhigim and work tirelessly and selflessly for the klal yisroel. Just because you may not agree with their policies and don't consider them your leaders, doesnt mean that you have a right to disparage them.
Kol hamevazeh talmid chacham ain lo cheilek baolam haba!

13

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:06 PM DerNister Says:

G-d works in mysterious ways. We all know that Agriprocessors price gouges. There is no other way to explain the incredible price hikes just before the high Holidays and Pesach every year. those spikes far out pace any increased demand. Might the current scandal be G-d's punishment for that geneivah?

14

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Dear Charedi Leumi:

What do you make of Chazal's statement and WHO this applies to: "All the stink (sirchon hador) of the generation stands upon leaders who have in their hands the power to protest and who do nothing"?

Or for that matter: "A talmid chachom who has no sense, a neveila is better than him."

Or: "Whoever has mercy on G-d's creations will have mercy bestowed upon him mishamayim."

Or: "A Talmid Chachom (Scholar) who has no sense, his tallis is like the blanket on the back of a donkey."

Last but not least, if Ketubot 111 tells us that the violation of the Three Oaths results in Jews being made hefker, what is a Jew supposed to think about it in today's world in Eretz Yisroel?

15

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:22 PM anonymous Says:

To: Dernister
Agri did not raise thier prices before Pessach I have an invoice from them from Feb. April and May the price fluctuation up and down was only 2% aperhaps your local butcher did raise prices
Agri Meat and Chicken is Kosher L'Pessach all year (with exception of deli and cooked foods).

16

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:25 PM anonymous Says:

Fun a Naahr Hutmin Tzaar ,,,this guy Hertzfeld is a 29 year old "pisher" looking for 15 min of fame and want's to feel important give him a break,,,he will learn the hard way...or maybe he won't.

17

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:31 PM LeiderLeider... Says:

It would be of morbid interest to go through the blogs of the past several weeks to see how the mindset of the bloggers shifted as the days and weeks passed.

The so-called self-righteous chachamim had a chance to blow off their steam. Oy, terrible! How hurt they were! These picture-perfect individuals couldn't fathom how someone could have (alleged) unscrupulous business ethics! How could they possibly allow this abomination!

Of course they are always careful to shop and do business with only 100% scrupulous individuals. They would never even dream of buying anything manufactured or sold by someone who owes his wife a Get for the past 15 years, or who illegally takes advantage of government programs, or who constantly blocks their neighbor’s driveway. They would never ever consider having a cleaning lady in their home without first verifying her legal credentials, (and of course it’s a given that they would duly supply them with a 1099 at year end).

My, oh my. I can’t imagine how they could survive the notion of Rubashkin hiring illegal workers. It must’ve eaten away at their delicate little hearts! The only recourse they had was to bash Rubashkin in public with the faint hope that they will have an impact on Rubashkin’s bottom line.

Of course, it doesn’t need to be said, that now once the dust has settled and Rubashkin will IY”H continue with business as usual, that these delicate flowers will not even think of starting to buy from Rubashkin again unless they personally visit the Iowa site (for at least a one-week period, and without prior notification) and prove to themselves that he has rectified all his horrible horrible acts.

Oh my! My heart goes out for them…

18

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:36 PM AMG Says:

It is the resonsability of supervising rabbis to do whatever is possable to protect their shochtim shochtim are torah scholars and people who part take in the insult of a torah scholar have no portion in the world to come by the way from the information I know about this alle processing does the most to protect the rights of their shochtim and international glatt has many srtingecies but they are the biggest abbusers of shochtim in the american kosher meat industry

19

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:45 PM Posek Hador Says:

MITZVO HaBo B'AVEIRA, LAAV MITZVA!!!
Producing "kosher"food while stealing from the government (our fellow citizens) and oppressing unfortunate poor people,is "distasteful" in the 'eyes of G-D'.How can a good Jew in good conscience,make a brocho to Hashem over such a product?It just so happens that Rubashkin makes some very fine products.

20

 Aug 12, 2008 at 04:53 PM smart Says:

#1 The more we quote thies idiots the more we make it sound that they have "das torah "
#2 their is no mkor for the story from rabbi yisroel salanta ,its a nice medefor but its not a real story, especally not to take down a hecsher from a plant!!!!!!!

21

 Aug 12, 2008 at 05:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Chazal tell us that not everyone can live like the Rashbi (in a cave, without gashmiyus) - rather - they say - like R.Yehuda to plow to plant etc.

R.Yisroel Salanter Zatzal is not a template for everyone. Besides, Klal Yisroel needs many more issues straightened out before raising the bar to such levels. (How many kids could be turned off completely by such angelic standards?)

Of course R.Yisoel Salanter would have written to the NYT about the scandal of Jewish blood in the matzah. He just couldn't write English.

22

 Aug 12, 2008 at 05:31 PM Anonymous Says:

I know all Frum Yidden agree that we must be mensclich in our daily activties including treatment of non-Jews.Where the disagreement is over the technincal definition of kosher. Of course - the meat is kosher but would one really desire "Fleisch" from a company that is not Mensclich or "Achzarious". If we really want this long Galus to end - we all must have an attitude of "Lifnei Shuras HadiN" Defaming anyone is not a good idea so I think all of us "annoynomous" should be very careful

23

 Aug 12, 2008 at 05:33 PM BE REAL Says:

since when did these people become our rabbis?
reformers are not our rabbis
thanks vos iz neiz for bringing us this garbage and not pointing out this fact ********

Just love dummies who can not read, this article is by Rabbi Gisser, he ends it with the name of his morei d'osrahs who are get rabbis. This Rabbi Gisser's article and opinion.
These stories are all original Rav Salanter episodes, that is why the entire Mussar movt was started, let's focus and intensify our spiritual growth bt people as we do in the realm of hashem.

24

 Aug 12, 2008 at 06:10 PM Anonymous Says:

What happened to the bombs that the plant was wired with? See the affidavit of ICE. Oh soo sorry they were the mezzusos

25

 Aug 12, 2008 at 06:11 PM Anonymous Says:

There is a story I beleive in Gittin about a person who attributed a quote to Unklos that was not true , He was put in a booth with a sign that passerbyers should spit on him until he drowns.

26

 Aug 12, 2008 at 06:27 PM Avrohom Abba Says:

Excuse me guys! We just came out of Tisha B'av and we all know that sinas chinom was the cause of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash! Speaking loshon hora or richilus is not mitzvah! Most of this entire controversy about Agi and about R' Yisroel Salanter and R' Herzfeld and everyone else, involves loshon hora and/or richilus. Let's be careful with throwing people's names around and let's remember to respect each other with love and to be bisimcha. There are only 13 million of us left in this world of 6 billion.

27

 Aug 12, 2008 at 06:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Speaking about ethics.. To rename a shul "The National Synagogue" seems self-aggrandizing in that it is as if one has taken on the title of "Chief Rabbi" of the United States. It is disengenuous and deceptive. Many New York Times readers actually thought that the fact that he was Rabbi of the "National Synagogue" lent him a greater prestige and distinction. To me this is worse than anything Agri could have done.

28

 Aug 12, 2008 at 06:53 PM tsvika55 Says:

does hetzfeld follow ALL of the R. Slanters psakim?
How would R. Salanter react to a womens Beth Medrash that hertzfelds temple so proudly displays?

29

 Aug 12, 2008 at 06:56 PM Anonymous Says:

To use "ethical and social justice" as a kashrus barmoeter is a very slippery slope that will never end. Every hechsher today is certifying foods manufactured in the far east. Do we expect the OU, OK Chof-K and others to certify the work conditions in Vietnam or China? This is a self-righteousness that is hypocritical and blatantly see-thru. Let kashrus stick to kashrus according to Shulcan Aruch, and "Daa'yoch ma sh'osroch Torah"

30

 Aug 12, 2008 at 06:58 PM Anonymous Says:

There is a trend in the modern orthodox world to distance themselves from Chredim, Chassidim and other "Heimish" yidden to show the gentile world we are just like you / more like you and not like them.
Shmuel Hertzfeld sits on radio shows and other panels and he definitly tries to be M'Karev unaffilited Jews to be shomer Torah and Mitzvos in his own way.
I think Shmuel Hertzfeld relished at the publicity and must have been giddy with joy to see his name and article splashed all over the newstands. He has very very bad judgment and it is not likely that he will learn from his mistakes.

31

 Aug 12, 2008 at 07:14 PM Anonymous Says:

One can expect the critiques of circumcision to affect radically the number of Jews willing to circumcise their sons. All this highlights the need for Jews in America to emphasize the vibrancy and uniqueness of Jewish circumcision. Only by responding with a powerful defense of circumcision will we be able to withstand both the moral and academic arguments raised by those opposing circumcision. If we fail to enrich the current understanding of this mitzvah, then we may not be able to prevent its abandonment.

Shmuel Hertzfeld 09/24/2001

This independent team would make sure the plant upholds basic standards of kashrut and worker and animal treatment — and that it is in full compliance with the laws of the United States.

Shmuel Hertzfeld NYT OP-ED


The fight against Bris Milah and Shechita has been on the forefront of Anti Semitisim for the past 300 years Shmuel Hertzfeld with his irresponsible Op-Ed in the NYT handed PETA FWAC and all of the other fascist politico groups with an atomic bomb.

32

 Aug 12, 2008 at 07:18 PM Anonymous Says:

I am just curious ...
Will Hertzfeld and his mentor Avi Weiss stand in front of the Capital steps in thier talis and placards when Chas V'Sholom thier is an uproar against Shechita in the USA

33

 Aug 12, 2008 at 07:36 PM Anonymous Says:

I think Hertzfeld took Reb Yiroel Salanter ZTL's story completly out of context and mis-applied it entirely. As The father of the mussar movement and a champion for Klal Yisroel and lover of All Yidden. Hertzfeld used the story of the episode of Rav Salanter and twisted it like a street corner J4J missionary.
It is a shame when young upstarts wish to have thier name in the press at the expense of all of Klal Yisroel, aiken to a person on a boat who wants to get off in middle of the ocean so he cuts a hole to sink the entire ship. The Op-Ed literaly filled the clip of ammunition for all anti-semites to relish in Jew vs Jew.
Perhaps Hertzfeld should ask advise from Rabbi Shachter or Rabbi Blau prior to lending his cannon to the Jew hating NY Times

34

 Aug 12, 2008 at 08:30 PM critical minyan Says:

One must remember this. Rabbi Herzfeld is not only a pulpit Rabbi but he is also a trained shochet. Very few modern orthodox Rabbis are also trained shochtim, but he is, so he knows from where he talks.
Additionally, he is friendly with some of the biggest people in Washington, so like him or not he will probably be the voice of modern orthodox judaism in Washington for G-D willing many, many years.
That is how he got his op-ed in the NY Times, one of the most prestigious spots in journalism. McCain himself couldn't get an op-ed in the NY Times. Rabbi Herzfeld is very well respected and connected and he can. It's true the NY Times is liberal, but it, not the Jewish press and not DER YID, is considered the most prestgious newspaper in America, like it or not.
The NY Times is public opinion and right now public opinion of everyone but the most hard-core, exclusionary reactionary, hateful carnivores is supporting Rubashkin. Your anger towards Rabbi Herzfeld is unjustified, except because you choose to blame him, the messenger, instead of the Goniff and choteh u'machteh es harabim, Shalom Rubashkin.
If you were truly machbid, you would kasher your kitchens before Rosh Hashah this year, just to make sure that your dishes this coming year are truly Kosher.

35

 Aug 12, 2008 at 09:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Critical minyan,
Have you substantiated proof al pi halacha that rubashkin's meat is anything other then kosher k'halacha ?

Otherwise you speak nareshkeit..."kaser your kitchens" you say..with clearly no evidence that any meat was anything other than 100% kosher.

BTW before you eat at a resturant, do you first run a background check on the owner? the mashgiach.. verify that the teudat hechsher is valid etc.. etc..

Do you eat out in eretz yisrael? tell me what you last saw a mashgiach at burgers bar, new deli etc.. etc..

Did you know that most resturants in israel employ illegal arab workers ? they pay em like 4$ a hour.. burgers bar employs kid's.

Want to discuss Israeli butchers ? half of them wear a yarmulka at the store and take it off when they go home, they are not shomer shabbos...

I have no desire to spread lashon hara other than to enlighten you on your high horse.

If your claim against rubashkin stems from violations of the law, work ethics and such.. whats that gotta do with kashering your kitchen?!?!

So now you will tell me that any meat that does not meet "moral and ethical" standards as traif and you must kasher your kitchen?

I was learning halachos of business and another sefer on hilchos ribbis.. do you REALLY practice your business 100% according to halacha ?!?!

Or do you rely on heterim?

Have you ever returned a product and lied about the circumstances ? mislead a customer?

I am not here to tell you how to run your life, but its very doubtfull that EVERYTHING you and the other critics of rubashkin are 100% honest when it comes to halacha and US law.

36

 Aug 12, 2008 at 09:56 PM realist Says:

Knowing Nat Lewin as I do, I would not refer to Rabbi Hertzfeld as Nat's Rabbi, but rather as the Rabbi at the Synagogue which Nat attends.

37

 Aug 12, 2008 at 10:44 PM bigwheeel Says:

leider leider 4:31PM. In the 4th. paragraph you hit the nail on the head, by stating the following "and they BASH ru BASH kin" ... OK. Let's not be so uptight, Y'all! The Rubashkin family are Big Baalei Tzedokoh and Machnisei Orchim, and their plant will get all the improvements required. All the PETAs, NY Times' and all the other "Holier Than Thou" scrutinizers will have their 15 Minutes of fame, and vanish!!!

38

 Aug 12, 2008 at 11:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Realist,
He's more of a lubavitcher than a hertzfeld talmud ;)

39

 Aug 13, 2008 at 01:36 AM tsvika55 Says:

critical minyan:

Trained shochet? The 2 week course that chovevey proivdes their "rabbis" with? Please don't make me laugh. He's barely a rabbi...
If he's soo concerned, how come he didn't go out there the way he went to Cuba?
Just another small timer trying to make a name for himself on the backs of hard working yiden.
Anf there should be any action taken before Rosh Ha'Shana, he should ask mechila from Rubashkins and klal yisoroel for publicly acusing them.

40

 Aug 13, 2008 at 01:36 AM Drill Here!! Drill Now!! Save Money!! Says:

You people defending the "rabbi" from DC all missed the point here which is that he has no right to say what is and what is not kosher here. The kashrus of the item is based on the facts and the facts are that the meat/fowl is kosher. If he wants to flap his gums about other "issues" there, he could do that BUT HE SHOULD NOT publish his hypocrisy in the Slimes.

41

 Aug 13, 2008 at 01:54 AM bigwheeel Says:

Babishka 1:59PM. You're 100% right. The same [classical] stories of [extraordinary] Morally upright behavior are [re]-told about the Chofetz Chaim and other Tzadikim. The lessons learned [from those] are the same! However, some people, in certain cases will hear only part of the message. The one that suits their agenda! For example, in the case of the "Heksher Tzedek" advocacy, (where some of its advocates are concerned with the Social conditions of the workers --which is important, too-- while neglecting the the Halachic requirements) we could have Shrimp and other seafood bearing their stamp of approval. As has happened in the past. (on one occasion in particular, unfortunately)!

42

 Aug 13, 2008 at 05:00 PM Charlie Hall Says:

"Will Hertzfeld and his mentor Avi Weiss stand in front of the Capital steps in thier talis and placards when Chas V'Sholom thier is an uproar against Shechita in the USA"

I have never met Rabbi Hertzfeld, but I do know Rabbi Weiss and I suspect that he would be the first person there with a protest if chas v'shalom such a law were being considered in Congress.

43

 Aug 13, 2008 at 05:36 PM Lerner Says:

Chassidim fight Chassidim, mis behave Charedi fight Charedi mis behave,Modern Othodox fight Modern Orthodox mis behave in every segment of Judaisim Orthodox Conservative Reform there are times when a person who affiliates himself with a group gets a "patch/ Frask " in public or does something naughty and ends up in the media spotlight for better or worse.

I have yet to see Charedim or "Gartel" wearing mikveh swiming Chassidim disparage "modern" orthodox Jews in the secular press such as the NYT
I have only seen a so called "modern Orthodox" ordained Rabbi disparage another "vigilante" style in the NYT

44

 Aug 14, 2008 at 03:32 PM Not a fan of Hertzfeld Says:

From http://lukeford.net/blog/?p=3727

Without any previous knowledge, you might think Hertzfeld is some kind of activist, a modern day Heschel — but Orthodox.

That is not the case. Let me give you some background. You can verify the assessment that I am giving you with anyone who was at YU with Hertzfeld.

Hertzfeld was in YU before Yeshivat Chovevei Torah opened up. Today, a person like him would probably wind up at YCT, but that wasn’t an option then.

He was always a maverick, or, if you will a trouble maker. He would make controversial statements in public, just to attract attention.

His most famous line — which he would repeat and repeat and repeat was, "The only reason guys in YU get married early, is because they don’t have premarital sex." Of course, everyone knew that he and his girlfriend were dating a long time, by YU standards, and only got married after three years of dating.

So, Hertzfeld was some kind of cynical YU guy, doing graduate work at Revel (YU’s graduate program in Judaic studes) — until he met Avi Weiss. When Hertzfeld took the job at Weiss’s shul (Hebrew Institute), he got into the whole "Avi Weiss/Hug everyone/isn’t it a wonderful world/so open-minded your brain falls out" thing. Luke, since you live on the West coast, you are used to such people; in New York, they are a rare commodity. Hertzfeld realized that, instead of making provocative comments that enraged people in YU, you could say the same things, and become the darling of your congregants, because that is exactly what they wanted to hear, a message contra YU.

Then Hertzfeld saw his opportunity. He took a dying shul in the DC area and renamed it "The National Synagogue." What a move! It’s like, there’s a National Cathedral — and a National Synagogue. He got a ton of money from Jonas (of IDT fame) and was soon in business running tons of programing. In a place like Washington, he taped into a niche market for "Open Orthodoxy."

Here’s Hertzfeld, doing his Open Orthodoxy thing, and getting the other rabbis, who belong to the "Vaad of Greater Washington," more and more upset at him. In a sense, he infuriated Rabbi Barry Freundel more than the more right-leaning rabbis. Freundel is a major YU person, very into YU as an institution. Hertzfeld represents a challenge to that.

Rubashkin was Hertzfeld’s coup de grace. He gained two things: first, he presented himself as a social activist, which is exactly the kind of PR that he needs. Second, he "assered," or forbade the meat, which is supervised by establishment groups like the OU. This is a classic trick of rabbis, to forbid something to show your political muscles. Even better, Hertzfeld comes out "frummer" than the other DC rabbis, who are far to his right.

The Times op-ed was a classic Hertzfeld. It brings him back to the days of being a cynical YU smicha guy.

The problem is, that he is nearly untouchable. If YU crucifies him, then he’ll become a martyr for Open Orthodoxy. If they tried to assassinate his character, by bringing out his dirty laundry from his YU days, then Hertzfeld will only gain, since he will become known as "the cool rabbi who allows pre-marital sex." Only time will tell what lies in wait for Shmuel Hertzfeld.

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 Aug 15, 2008 at 04:13 AM Matzahlocal101 Says:

Rabbi Seinfeld... oops! Hertzfeld, broadsided the Jewish community with an op-ed regarding kashrus in the same manner Dr. Moshe Dovid Tendler broadsided the Jewish Community with his medical paper attacking a part of the ritual of circumcision. It would seem that "orthodox" conduct would mean consulting with da'as Torah, consulting with the best experts in the field, they religious or technical experts, and bringing the matter to the attention of Jewish community, either through pamphlets, newsletters, or religious newspapers. Attacking Jewish practice through the Gentile press, particularly when there no convictions, no pending charges, no credible allegations, is the exact same method used by anti-semites through out the generations to attack Jews. In this case, claiming to be more compassionate then Chazal and holding an even hire standard (Like a Hebrew National commercial) then shulchan oruch by claiming he can establish the proper social welfare standards for proper "kosher" employmant is arrogance beyond belief. Particulary coming from a man that claimed we must defend circumcision but did not do so when Dr. Tendler attacked it. I can only hope his congregation will have the foresight to oust this man from their midst rather then to embrace a man who would have made Goebbels proud. Dr Tendler did the same thing Instead of meeting with the leading researcher in neonatal herpes, Dr. Richard Whitley and David Kimberlin, like the Ultra orthodox did, he and his friends published three medical papers on the subject. The first was by Drs Lorry Rubin and Phillip Lanzkowsky. The cite several references on neonatal herpes and then write the exact opposite of what was written in their sources, failing to mention all their "factors": seronegative, onset of symptoms, location of lesions are cited by neonatal herpes experts as being textbook maternally transmitted herpes. The second article in Israel was by Rubin's longtime acquaintance by Bentzion Garty. (Distel et al) Garty cites no references but spouts neonatal facts and figures left and right. He also uses the same 1980 United States HSV statistics cited by Rubin that have no bearing on a neonatal herpes case in Israel. Rubin's Einstein colleage Dr. MD Tendler was a co-author of the third paper about which he boasts that they violated editorial policy and stacked the authorship with 6 additional non-authors in ordered to get it published in Pediatrics after JAMA rejected it twice because the piece is garbage and clearly an attack on chareidim. despite predictions of thousands of dead and dying, since the passage of the NYS circumcision protocol which mandates the DNA testing which the authors and NYC dept of health refused to do, there have been no new cases. Surprise. The above are just a few reasons why the machla called modern orthodoxy should cease to exist. Yetamu chataim min ha'aretz vichulu.

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 Aug 20, 2008 at 11:57 AM Reb Yid Says:

MO comes in all shapes and sizes. Jews who consider themselves MO also vary, from the halachic to the pseudo-halachic. Herzfeld, Weiss, Chovevei Torah, etc, like to stradle the line, or possibly, play with fire.

Re:"not a fan of hertzfel": you're right on the money, but I don't understand your last paragraph--so what if he's a martyr for open orthodoxy? Who's really going to care? Certainly not anyone at YU, or to the right of YU. And as for anyone to the left of YU, they're all open orthodox/chovevei torah anyway?!

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