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Tzfas, Israel - Women to be Locked Inside Breslov Synagogue if They Didn't Leave On Time |
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Tzfas, Israel - New guidelines imposed by Safed's Breslov community determine women must leave Shabbat service before final prayer or they are locked inside gallery until men make their exit.
Guests that have recently stayed in cabins in Safed owned by the city's Hasidic Breslov community were surprised to discover that a new list of guidelines was requiring different exit times from the synagogue following Shabbat prayers.
According to the new rule, women must leave the synagogue before the 'Aleinu Leshabeach' prayer is recited, after which the women's gallery is locked for 15 minutes, during which the men make their exit. The women's gallery is then reopened to allow those who didn't make it out in time to leave.
The Breslov community's synagogue in Safed is a popular spot for Saturday services due to its old-world architecture and authentic Hasidic dances. It is owned by Rabbi Elazar Mordechai Koenig, whose father was a student of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov's closest pupil.
The decision to separate between women and men exiting the synagogue stems from Safed's structure, known for its narrow alleyways and streets. The synagogue opens onto one such street, forcing the people coming out after services to crowd together, and forcing the men to restrict the women's exit.
"In the beginning we thought someone had locked the women's gallery from outside by mistake, but as time went on we realized we had been locked in purposefully, without being informed," said Noa, a guest who attended Shabbat services.
"It was horrible; dozens of women banging on the door trying to get out. In the men's gallery someone yelled to the manager 'the women have been locked in!' The men didn't know about it either, and many of them stood helplessly outside waiting for their wives."
Avital, a resident of Safed and the wife of a yeshiva student, was also surprised. "We've been praying here for years, I'm pretty shocked. It's really degrading to lock up women like that," she said.
Ofer, a member of the community, had a different opinion. "The Torah commands us to maintain holiness not just inside the home but also outside, in the public sphere," he claims. "It's true that it's not natural, but the Torah isn't natural, it wants to correct our nature and make us better people.
"Today urges have become natural, like you have to accept it unconditionally. I want to curb the urge rather than have it curb me. Today the situation is, urges are fine and the Torah is not."
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Read Comments (50) — Post Yours »
1
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:20 AM Anonymous Says:
why cannot the men stay locked up, in order to allow the women to go out first? Women need to have the table set, they need to prepare the food, they need to take care of the kids etc... Let the men stay locked up for 15 minutes of additional learning. THAT SHOULD WORK OUT JUST FINE!
2
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:27 AM menachem Says:
how about locking the men in to let the women exit first?
3
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:28 AM anonymous Says:
being locked in one week will for sure teach them all not to stay longer next week. By us in new square we are asked to leavethe shul on shabbos before the men finish davaning so it doesnt get to tarives (mixed) I do not see it as bad but as tznius
4
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:33 AM political analyst Says:
perfectly reasonable, 15 minutes isn't that long of a time. A synagogue is a place of prayer & study- not socializing.
5
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:55 AM Anonymous Says:
What happens if there is a fire, it is nice to know that tznius wins over safety.
6
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:59 AM Yachtzel Says:
The women are able to exit first & that's exactly what they're being asked to do. Don't wait till it's time for the men to leave. If you choose to wait, then wait till the men have finished leaving. The only thin wrong here seems to be the lack of communications.
7
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:06 AM Shmendrik Says:
Rebbe Nachman of Breslov's closest pupil, Reb Noson, passed away in 1844. Rav Gedaliah Koenig (born in 1921) was obviously not Reb Noson's student. In fact, he was Reb Noson's great-grandson's student.
8
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:06 AM Anonymous Says:
1.Not a bad idea,but i dont think they would want to pay for there seats for this coming Rosh Hashoneh.
2.They can always abonden there husbands and daven somewhere else.
9
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:07 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:
Sounds like a very reasonable arrangement to a difficult situation. The women have ample time to leave. Those that choose not to, have an extra 15 min of socializing in the women's section.
10
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:09 AM Anonymous Says:
re anon 820
should they leave before the end of davaning why not
11
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:27 AM Anonymous Says:
I AM SICK OF ALL THIS.......NOT EVEN IN THE STAYTALS OF OLD DID THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN...... AND YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY SO MANY CHASSIDISH YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING OF THE DERECH...
12
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:29 AM yid Says:
lock the men & ladies in. like this everybody is equal & unhappy!!!
13
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:29 AM Frum in my heart Says:
But now the Women can't daven Aleinu and miss a Kadish.
Perhaps they should have a mandatory shiur for the men, lock the MEN"S section for 15 minutes or until all of the women have left.
That would show kavod for their wives.
As a man, I find it most interesting that the way tznius is dealt with is by making the women take the heat.
14
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:46 AM Yossi G. Says:
No comment on the basic idea, but where is the Rav that over such silliness allows a worldwide chilul Hashem, because this surely WILL be picked up and spread as proof of the backward morals of Chassidim?
15
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:47 AM Anonymous Says:
Women are not mandated to go to shul men are. So if they want to go to shul great, but get out before Aleinu
16
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:48 AM Actually Says:
What about the women who are Aveilim? When do they get to say the final kadish if they have to leave early?
17
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:55 AM keonig Says:
where is rav koenig in all of this
18
Aug 28, 2008 at 10:02 AM The who Says:
This is truly a community out of control.Who will save us from this insanity.
19
Aug 28, 2008 at 10:08 AM Babishka Says:
This sounds like Saudi Arabia, where they locked the girls inside the burning school because they might run out without their burqas.
20
Aug 28, 2008 at 10:18 AM Anonymous Says:
Why can't the men who are disturbed by this remain in shul for a few more minutes, until the women have left?
Also, why the fifteen minute rule? If it takes more than 5 minutes to empty out the men's section, it would never have passed the fire code.
What kind of men would be standing around and shmoozing, while the women are locked up, waiting for them to leave?
21
Aug 28, 2008 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:
I HOPE THEY AT LEAST HAD WATER TO DRINK, STAYING 15 NIMUTES IS NO JOKE THEY COULD HAVE STARVED TO DEATH. WERE THEY ABLE TO SEE THEIR CHILDREN OR THESE ROTSCHIM SEPARATED THEM AS WELL IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE GERMANS..
22
Aug 28, 2008 at 10:30 AM Morris K Blister Says:
There is no place that it is brought down that a woman says kaddish. A woman saying kaddish is an idea that was introduced by modern orthodox. Tefilah B'tzibur and anything associated with it is for men and whatever women do is nice but not required
23
Aug 28, 2008 at 10:48 AM Anonymous Says:
The effort to emulate the Mullahs of Iran is the only explanation for some of this open attack on observant women by men taking it upon themselves to order women around. Naturally, the women themselves are denied a voice. The other catagory denied a voice would be children. Does this mean women treated like childrend are therefore only half-adults as represented by Safed’s Breslov community rabbinate?
Under Islamic rule women count only as half a person in court - is this next for the daughters, wives, mothers - in a word - women who live under the rabbinate of Safed’s Breslov community?
What's next?
24
Aug 28, 2008 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:
Is the issue really tzniyus or is it about control?
Do the men feel that with many women out in the work force and with a far superior secular education,they are losing control and are lashing out.
Notice that the mishmeres hatznius usually attack women. Pedophile teachers and priciples are protected by the community.
These are legitimate questions to ask.
With women bearing the brunt of child bearing, child rearing and bread winning, are we asking to much of them?
How much longer will the women stand for our misogynism?
To marry a daughter into a life of servitude ,we expect her father to pay. We then demand she ride the back of the bus and be locked in shul till the menfolk leave.
Maybe the men should be locked in shukl till the women leave,after all the women have to prepre the eir mit tzvibel and take care of the kids.
25
Aug 28, 2008 at 11:14 AM Midwest Yid Says:
I am getting really sickened by this tznius one upmanship. Let's just get it over with, put all our women in burkas, don't let them vote, treat them like the Muslims. Yidden, we are not Muslims! Just like you fera nad fight the secular influence on your community as anti Yiddishkeit, so too must we fight the urge to become so machmir as to drive away our children from Yiddishkeit chas ve shalom
26
Aug 28, 2008 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:
This is truly a case of literal chassid shota - the safety issue alone is, in my opinion, an issur mideoraisa.
Instead of locking the doors, why not post a female volunteer to politely ask women to stay inside until the men have cleared out (and a male volunteer to hurry the men along).
You would then have no safety issue, and could make case-by-case exceptions if a mother and child is separated for example.
27
Aug 28, 2008 at 12:00 PM Torah Yid Says:
Midwest Yid,
Why does this surprise me that you have a problem with tznius. First and foremost the issue at hand is NOT tznius but safety due to overcrowding. And while I do NOT agree that women should be "locked" in, I do beleive there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with having women wait for the men to exit or vice versa.
NEWSFLASH LIBERALS This is how things have been done in the past (see Jewish history) and will continue to be done. Why do you allow the values and morals of contemporary goy society define what is right and wrong? Judge by Torah NOT by standards founded by one of 70 nations. Remove the galus from your neshamas... STUDY TORAH
28
Aug 28, 2008 at 12:21 PM r u serious Says:
Chassidus with no Rebbe is an oxymoron
29
Aug 28, 2008 at 12:40 PM Anonymous Says:
Bresolv has a great idea on how to prevent mixing of sexes. Why stop at shul? Lets lock up the woman in their houses?
30
Aug 28, 2008 at 12:42 PM Anonymous Says:
I am very much against the Tznius patrols etc.
Although the pritzusdige chilonim should at least
try to respect the sensitivities of the chareidi areas and either dress appropriately or avoid those areas.
As for locking the women in for 15 mins if they haven't exited by the end of davening - I think it's perfectly reasonable as long as this is announced and signs are posted. I have davened in Ohr Someach Monsey on Yom Tovim and they do the same thing They announce all women should exit before the end of davening (while they sing Adon Olam) so there should be no mingling. They do NOT lock the doors and consequently many women do take their time and there is some mingling - I don't see why they can't lock the doors for 15 mins (if they don't it is guaranteed the women will not listen) for the tardy women.
The only problem with this Breselv story is that (it seems) they did not communicate this takonah to the mispallim - that's a chutzpah.
31
Aug 28, 2008 at 12:46 PM Anonymous Says:
anon from square didnt know they have internet in square only belz??
32
Aug 28, 2008 at 01:33 PM Anonymous Says:
there is no reason for a woman to miss the last Omein Yehei Shmei Raboh. It would be much more decent for the women to leave after the last kadish, and let men wait a little longer. Women are not mechuyav in learning , however , men are mechujav, and such have an excellent opportunity to chap arain, and not skip shul before the end of davening.
33
Aug 28, 2008 at 01:54 PM Anonymous Says:
"A woman saying kaddish is an idea that was introduced by modern orthodox."
Nonsense. I don't know how widespread this practice was in prewar Europe, but it did occur and it did have the approval of Rav Chaim Ozer and the Chofetz Chaim. That of course doesn't mean that the practice should be encouraged, or that the idea has not become more popular due to the pressures of modernity. But to condemn the practice as some sort of innovation is over the top.
34
Aug 28, 2008 at 01:57 PM Yokum Purkon Says:
This NOT daas torah and is insulting to women. Can someone ....anyone site a reference where such insulting behaiviour is acceptable l'halocho?? What's next? Mechitzas for the sidewalks? Different shopping times at the grocery? Men & women cashiers for their respective genders? Is "Honour killings" next? If this is whats coming let those who advocate such actions just go ahead and convert to Islam. "Designer Burqa's coming soon to Dicci's" (I wouldn't be surprised)
35
Aug 28, 2008 at 02:09 PM Anonymous Says:
I AM SICK OF ALL THIS.......NOT EVEN IN THE STAYTALS OF OLD DID THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN...... AND YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY SO MANY CHASSIDISH YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING OF THE DERECH...
08-28-2008 - 9:27 AM
Since you seem to be God's ally in His master plan, maybe you also know why Litvish young people are going off the derech.....
36
Aug 28, 2008 at 02:19 PM balabusta Says:
Such a bizarre way to handle things..Lock up the women..
Go to the UWS and see what goes on after davening at the OZ. I don't agree with it but,maybe lets lock them all up and see how they react(Im being sarcastic here)
37
Aug 28, 2008 at 03:08 PM Anonymous Says:
This entire story is not true,THIS IS JUST BASHING- there is a group of pepole who were asked to leave the kahila due to serious various problems which doesn't even relate to yiddishkite,and they are trying in every way to smear the Breslov community in Safat and elsewere. For those who are familiar with Rav Kenig know that he is a person that loves every jew regardless of his background. Yes, what is true is that he does not and shouldn't tolerate pepole who are trying to corrupt others living in the community,
38
Aug 28, 2008 at 03:50 PM Anonymous Says:
I can tell you this.
This has nothing to do with R'Koenig. This decision was made by the administration.
R'Koenig has never had a problem with meeting with women, and is by far the most humble man that you will find.
39
Aug 28, 2008 at 05:36 PM Shaul Boruch Says:
This is the most retarded rule I've ever heard. Why not just shoot the women if they aren't out by Aleniu?
40
Aug 28, 2008 at 06:03 PM Anonymous Says:
Yachtzel,
Very well said!
41
Aug 28, 2008 at 06:46 PM david Says:
Who will come back to open the door in case of a fire?
42
Aug 28, 2008 at 07:00 PM anne Says:
Haven't the "narrow alleyways and streets" existed for centuries? Why did this start in 2008?
43
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:00 PM TY Says:
If these people are praying and praying all day, HOWEVER they feel they are so weak and have no morals and decipline that they have to be kept apart.....so what is all the praying for???? They gain no strenght and wisdom from their prayers. Fools.
44
Aug 28, 2008 at 08:32 PM Anonymous Says:
Lock the men in until the women are all out.
45
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:18 PM Anonymous Says:
This is a disgrace. There is no way I will continue to contribute to any Breslov related institutions.
46
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:24 PM Diane Says:
balabusta, shidduchim are made at OZ after davening. This is disgusting and seems like a fire hazard--don't they enforce the code Sfat?
47
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:44 PM Shaul Boruch Says:
"Chassidus with no Rebbe is an oxymoron"
To the poster who wrote this - you spelled moron wrong.
48
Aug 28, 2008 at 09:56 PM My own thoughts Says:
Can someone please look up what exiting the Bais Hamikdash looked like. There definitely was an ezras nashim for the simchas beis hashoaivos.It's
funny how people here reference Torah and tznius.
Back in our holiest Beis Hamikdosh days Tu B'av was dancing women and men picking wives-no problem then-TRY THAT TODAY! Today men are locking women in shul if they choose to stay until the end of davening {or if they are elderly and move too slowly} so that men who apparently can't control themselves can leave shul. Truly a man who can't control himself as he is leaving G-D's house does not belong in society, who knows what will happen then!!
49
Aug 28, 2008 at 11:20 PM wants good Says:
u know the rav ther ? he is knoen for a very very special person not what u think off but the members are frankes bali tshaves and the women the same and he is very loved by them so the reson for his hatzlach ther are lising to ther rov if u do not like it the loved it & if he says that they r closed in thats with out a lock its by his word and again evrthing there is with love in the air .the r in a different (lovely peacefull )world
50
Aug 29, 2008 at 09:37 AM KANOY Says:
Well Rabbosai..just another bunch of lunatics taking over the asylum. In my humble opinion THET SHOULD ALL BE LOCKED UP.