Postville, IA – After an article appeared today in the NY Times by Julia Preston, where it accuses Agriprocessors of inhumanly slaughter tactics showing an undercover video released by Peta, we got a Letter that was submitted to the NY Times by Menacham Lubinsky who represents Agriprocessors and was quoted in the article.
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Dear Julia:I was terribly disappointed in your piece this morning that included a quote from me, which makes me wonder whether the sense of fairness you tried to display in your previous piece was somehow missing here.
For starters, there are several inaccuracies: You write: “Under the regulations, a “second cut” in an animal’s throat can be made only in exceptional cases by rabbis or under their supervision. These cuts are sometimes made to speed blood flow from the animals.” There is nothing in the regulations that mentions exceptional cases and in fact if you had read the regulations, you would see a blanket permission for the second cut.
Here are the Direct quotes from the regulations on the subject of a second cut:
Inspection program personnel are to verify that after the ritual slaughter cut and any additional cut to facilitate bleeding, no dressing procedure (e.g., head skinning, leg removal, ear removal, horn removal, opening hide patterns), is performed until the animal is insensible.Inspection program personnel are not to interfere in any manner with the preparation of the animal for ritual slaughter, including the positioning of the animal, or the ritual slaughter cut and any additional cut to facilitate bleeding.
Secondly: Whoever told you that Agriprocessors agreed to suspend the second cut when it was never demanded of them and the procedure continues?
Third: You conveniently omitted my quote that the second cut in fact only hastens the elimination of any pain or suffering, if there is any?
Finally, this story would have been more appropriate to point out that PETA’s activities were illegal and that the USDA used the strong term that Agriprocessors is “in full compliance.” Why not tell the truth?
Menachem Lubinsky
President & CEO, LUBICOM Marketing Consulting, which represents Agriprocessors and
Editor-in-Chief, Kosher Today
The problem is not with the second cut.
The problem is that Rubashkin SAID there would be no second cut. The problem is that when the 25 visitors came last month, there was no second cut. The problem is that PETA and Temple Grandin were told that there would be no second cut.
As soon as all the visitors left, there was a second cut.
Do not let Lubinsky spin this that it was a Kashrus issue if they were allowed or not.
Stop PETA,Union & Eksher Reform Style. They are against any Frum ashgacha, they are now after MealMart!!
They don’t care about the hispanic workers or under paid workers, they are only after frum type eksher & rabonim
because they want a public story not the truth
I am the parent of a special child. I love my child but expect no business to base poliucies on my childs advice
The famed expert, Temple Grandin is a special person. Yes, respect but I bet she did not mean wahat was quoted.
Secondly – Does the procedure continue?
Agri had claimed to discontinue the procedure and when the plant was visited just weeks ago by the non-infamous “Three our Tour”, their video clearly shows that the second wasn’t used.
Do they do it, or not? Is it only when there are no visitors, or only on days when Alternate Side Parking is suspended?
A simple once and for all answer is all we seek. No more smoke and mirrors, lies and half truths.
Anon 2:28,
Are you Yudel Shain in disguise who some claim is behind this AGRI tragedy? or do you want to bring down our shechita system at any COST?
PETA or any other multi-alphabet organization shall have no tresspass, no input, no opinion, no influence and YES, no existence in the Kosher Jewish law. PERIOD.
We have a Tora which amply provides for the prevention of cruelty to animals. The moment these jewish self haters start influencing our MINHAGIM, even a KITZOI SHEL YID, we’re finished.
DO YOU UDNERSTAND?
Does anyone know the Halacha here?
Does the second cut pose any Halachic Shaalos in Kashrus?
Are there any halachic Opinion which prohibit this second cut which would mean that Agri meat is only Bedieved Kosher and Treif according to some Halachic Opinions?
Anyone sitting Halachic opinions, please indicate precise sources, names of Rabbonim and Sforim and Shaalos and Tshuvos where this is discussed.
PETA are sonei yisroel they are partners with bloomberg and freiden and want to stop bris milah. they tell you it’s about a second cut, but they want to stop shechitah altogether. the heck with agriprocessors; they were fools for breaking immigration laws, but we have to protect our religious rights and ensure their is accomodations.
If they used a meat hook like they did in 2004, it certainly presents kashrus issues, such as the potential ripping of sirchos. Other than that, I don’t believe there are any kashrus issues.
Whether they are soney yisroel or not is irrelevant.
We are talking HALACHA here.
The halacha is that all Goyim (by any name) are are all Soney Yisroel – So Paskens Torah.
Halacha Sh’Esav Soney L’Yaakov
Af Al Pi Kein, Kabel Es Haemes M’Mey Sheomroy
The real question that no one seems to address is that Weismandel’s Supreme wants to give the world the impression that that they are not only kosher bedieved but MEHUDAR and if this second cut poses seriouse Halachic Questions Shaalos, which may needs “heterim”, then both Rubashkin and Weismandel should both close shop now.
WITH ALL RESPECT TO LUBINSKY AND NAT LEWIN THEY ARE PAID TO DEFEND AGRI LETS HEAR FROM A EXPERT ROV
feivel ones the kuna and veshet is cut completely its a lkatchula to make a second cut this is a process used by EVERY schita in the world look in smeach simon beis.
in yore diha simon 22 is mentioned
that it is a MUST the second cut so I gave you some homework for shabbos. also why does it make more sense for you that the third cut on your table is mutur and the second cut in kill floor is a question if the cow is dead its dead! dead by a jew is called as soon as the kuna and veshed is cut through.
mark there is a post above from a whole list of rabbonim that there is no question about the second cut I thing you should shmuz it over with feivel he also wants to see only what he wants.
berish 4:58PM. Pronouncing LEKATCHULA is like saying “BERUSH”! “Kune” is also the “Chasidish” way of pronunciation! Anyway, we still have to work on our “Litvish” accent!!!
p.s.: Which sefer is the “smeach” that you quote from Simon Beis?
to all say Peta is Soney Yisroel I have some info for you.
The original people who broke and reported about abuse of animals in rubashkins plants WHERE FRUM JEWS.
In addition, Peta goes after many goyim like famous movie stars, fashion models, and fashion house that are not owned by Jews.
You can argue that they are wrong, not level headed. But they are not Soney Yisroel. The evidence simply proves that are a fanatical animal rights group and will go after whoever they can like Micheal Vick and the NFL, is he Jewish and is the NFL a frum organization.
Also for those who say the “Torath says” whether about schita and or when an animal is dead etc. Show me and the rest of us the posek (sentence) in the Torah that describes schita and tzar baal chaim and or when an animal is dead, so we can end this?
However, as hard as one looks I am sure you will not find it, prove me wrong?
For reporting at least both sides of the story.
I really don’t care about the second cut. I care that Rubashin promised and then he lied.
Then he got caught.
Again.
What did we not catch him on? Because of him, Peta will might shechita in jeopardy. And there are still people that will defend the shtus that he does.
big wheel semach is simlah chadusha from the tvuas shour he is matir even if you did not cut both simnoim if the second cut is done by a non jew however in simon 23 he says its not lkatcula but that is only the simnoim. goos shabbos I hope you understand my english… its now semilitvish…
Annon, 6:20.
Yidele, Why don’t you put that Video on u’r website?
You’ve carried on a JIHAD against Rubashkin the moment your mother weaned you off the bottle. Now you have them where you want.
BTW, what kind of talk is “I really don’t care about the second cut” ?
I’ve got gr8 news for you; McDonalds serves meat WITHOUT a second NOR first cut. If you’re into high end eateries how about “Unclejacks” Steak Houses. They too serve UNCUT, no first and no second and you’d be in peace with yourself not having to worry PETA’s worries.
P.S. The halachas are as mentioned in other post’s. It’s a NON ISSUE al pi halocha.
The majority or people involved in the leadership of PETA do not believe in shechita of any kind – kosher, non-kosher — it soesn’t matter. They don’t believe in killing animals for food.
That said, the video shot by PETA is quite disturbing. I agree with those who say it doesn’t matter whether there is one cut, or two. We can argue halacha on this point until the sun comes up.
No, what is disturbing is the lie told to the Rabbonim and kosher consumer, that shechita done at Agri is done with a single cut.
The second cut issue, “cuts” to the heart of the problem at Agri. It is a question of trust.
And now the 20 Rabbis who took part in the 3 hour Gilligan’s Island tour must live with the shame of having participated in a sham. The shmutz at Agri now covers them as well – not to mention the OU and Wiesmandl who are already covered head-to-toe.
Disguise Says:
Anon 2:28,
Are you Yudel Shain in disguise who some claim is behind this AGRI tragedy?
———————————–
No, I am not Rabbi Shain
or do you want to bring down our shechita system at any COST?
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We are not bringing down shechita, Rubashkin is doing it without anyone’s help. If he promised not to do a second cut, and he paid for the videos for the 24 Rabbi Three Hour Tour that shows no second cut, then why did he do it when no one was around? Why did he promise the OU that he would stop? Why did he promise USDA that he would not do it unless he informs them first (see FM for copies of the USDA papers that shows that he promised them)
PETA or any other multi-alphabet organization shall have no tresspass, no input, no opinion, no influence and YES, no existence in the Kosher Jewish law. PERIOD.
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You are right. They should have no input in Kosher halachot.
But they will open their mouths when they see animals that are shechted that are not allowed to bleed out before some worker takes a hook to their throats and rips out the trachea – not because they want the behaima to bleed out, but to yank on the lungs so that you ‘improve’ the glatt rate by 1-2%. Had you waited for the animal to stop moving then there would be no problem.
We have a Tora which amply provides for the prevention of cruelty to animals. The moment these jewish self haters start influencing our MINHAGIM, even a KITZOI SHEL YID, we’re finished.
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Obviously, Rubashkin was not machmir and DID cruelty to animals after shechita. Your argument is with him, not the rest of us.
DO YOU UDNERSTAND?
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I understand. Do you? Have YOU complained to Rubashkin that HIS actions risk it for us all???
I don,t know what the New York Times agenda is. I have worked in numerous non kosher packing houses, and let me tell you how things work. We process 15 to 1800 animals a day, each animal passes by on a conveyor belt suspended on its belly feet of thw ground. It is shot in the head by a bolt gun, some animals die, some are stunned, and some remain concious. Immediately someone else slits their throat to bleed the animal. Not a shochet not anyone with any skills just factory labour, why is no one complaining??
Who is this Yudel Shain?
I had a feeling that the whole Rubashkin thing was orchestrated against them by someone with a vendetta.
Can we find out about this man, Shain,and if need be, and bring him to justice for the terrible pain he has inflicted on innocent people?
In the great need to find out who is to blame for the Rubashkin debacle, we have seen that
1) PETA
2) The Unions
3) The competitors
4) Hechsher Tzedek
5) The NY TIMES
AND NOW
6) Rabbi Shain
are all mentioned.
I have the following questions:
Who owns the plant?
Who signed the USDA grant of inspection (Who is ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens in the plant)?
What education do they have to run a multi-million dollar plant (what college, school of business, training in finance, management, HACCP concepts, foos safety, etc)
If they have no training except for a yeshiva education, why would the be enough? If you were in the Yeshiva world, then I would agree, but you are now in the BUSINESS world.
Annon 9:41
“Obviously, Rubashkin was not machmir and DID cruelty to animals after shechita. Your argument is with him, not the rest of us. ”
Did I see this right?
Are you a JEW WHO BELIEVES IN THE TORA?
LEACHER SCHITA THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS TZAAR BAALEI CHAIM or in PETA’S terminology (which you adhore) ‘CRUELTY TO ANIMALS’, KAPICH? or you dispute this part of the Tora?
UNBELIEVABLE!
Can we find out about this man, Shain,and if need be, and bring him to justice for the terrible pain he has inflicted on innocent people?
What happens if you take out the word SHAIN and replace it with THE RUBASHKINS?
LEACHER SCHITA THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS TZAAR BAALEI CHAIM or in PETA’S terminology (which you adhore) ‘CRUELTY TO ANIMALS’, KAPICH? or you dispute this part of the Tora?
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UNfortunately, this is where DINA D’MALCHUSA reigns. When you see the animal WALKING AROUNG for 3 minutes after shechita, according to the USDA, the animal is not dead. Rubashkin promised to put a bullet in the brain if this happens again. Why? The animal is already dead al pi halacha?
Because the US govt does not want the appearance of the animal being alive. And Rubashkin agreed. And Rubashkin lied. Again.
If Rubashkin was not so greedy, the animal would be in the holding pen until it stops moving. Then you can make your second cut. PS, Al Pi Halacha, in the position that the animal is in (in the weinberg pen) if the shochet makes the cut more horizontal, they would alleviate this problem. But the shoichet is NOT EXPERIENCED enough and is afraid that the restraining arm will nick his knife so me makes more cuts than necessary and now he is in the mess that he is in?
Don’t quote ‘halacha’ if you do not know the source and do not know relevant USDA laws that MUST be abided at the same time. We are still in America, and Kosher is an NOT exemption to the Humane Slaughter Act. It IS humane slaughter, when done PROPERLY.
Are you A Jew that believed in Torah? Then act it.
UNBELIEVABLE.
can I know WHEN did rubashkin give a statement saying they do not do a second cut? a second cut depends on the shochet if he did a good job during schita by cutting through ALL blood vessels if he failed to do so then a second cut to cut the blood vessels is necessary.
Judging by the comments above, it seems that many of you did not read the article on the top of this page. It qoutes the USDA guidlines that there are no limitations on a second cut for bleeding and that the cut the rubashkin agreed to discotinue was one where they removed the trachea and as you can plainly see in the video they don’t remove the trachea.
1048 AFRA LPUMA how can you give in do the usda if according to the tora to shoot a behima after schita is forbidden as mentioned in yora diya simon 67 rubashkin would and will never give in. dina dmalcusa is only in some cases by choshen misphat not by yora diya.
to anoy 2:28 and meatloaf . u r probally the same person shame on u for aligning yourself with the biggest reshoim! and dont anser me that u care for chilul hashem we know what u really want
Peta yemach shmom v’zichrom are a bunch of left wing radical wakkos that need to be stopped somehow. They are out to destroy people’s lives for the sake of some stupid animal. FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE!!
berish Says:
can I know WHEN did rubashkin give a statement saying they do not do a second cut? a second cut depends on the shochet if he did a good job during schita by cutting through ALL blood vessels if he failed to do so then a second cut to cut the blood vessels is necessary.
09-06-2008 – 11:04 PM
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Your a tptal innoramous.
If the shochet didnt do the cut right as you put it then its not a kosher slaughter. Making a second cut is OSSUR
berish Says:
can I know WHEN did rubashkin give a statement saying they do not do a second cut?
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They promised PETA (YM) and they promised USDA (see FM for copy of USDA papers)
a second cut depends on the shochet if he did a good job during schita by cutting through ALL blood vessels if he failed to do so then a second cut to cut the blood vessels is necessary.
09-06-2008 – 11:04 PM
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Too bad you did not see the video. It clearly shows that the shoichet walks away while someone else slashes at the animal’s chest. YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE ANIMAL TO STOP MOVING. The last set of pictures that we saw had the animal moving for 3 minutes AFTER shechita. USDA does not want the appearance that the animal is still alive when you slash at the chest.
THis is true chullul Hashem. Rubashkin knows what to do. He lied to USDA, Grandin, the Rabbonim, PETA, everyone when he said that he would stop the second cut. If he lets the animal bleed out in the Weinberg pen (which there are plenty of shaylos to begin with) then he would not have a lot of the shechita problems that he has.
His shechita numbers are down by 50%, he has all the time in the world to let the animal bleed, but he still wants to do it in a way that NO OTHER SHLOCHT-HOUSE IN AMERICA WANTS TO DO IT.
berish Says:
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Oh, it’s you, again
1048 AFRA LPUMA how can you give in do the usda if according to the tora to shoot a behima after schita is forbidden as mentioned in yora diya simon 67
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What s’eef? Did they have guns then?
rubashkin would and will never give in. dina dmalcusa is only in some cases by choshen misphat not by yora diya.
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Rubashkin already agreed to do it. Check with MMW, USDA, Grandin, etc.
It is possible to satisfy BOTH USDA AND HALACHA. Everyone else does it. Why not Rubashkin?
09-06-2008 – 11:39 PM
Vote McCain – Palin In 08! Says:
Peta yemach shmom v’zichrom are a bunch of left wing radical wakkos that need to be stopped somehow. They are out to destroy people’s lives for the sake of some stupid animal. FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE!!
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Alle shechts at Aurora and at Treuth. At other times, there are other shechitas that shecht there, like the Star-k, CRC, etc
Why are there no problems in the shechita there? What is different there that Rubashkin does not do? What are they picking ONLY on Rubashkin and no one else?
It would seem to me that the problem lies with Rubashkin, not with the rest of the world.
abi gezunt Says:
to anoy 2:28 and meatloaf . u r probally the same person shame on u for aligning yourself with the biggest reshoim! and dont anser me that u care for chilul hashem we know what u really want
09-07-2008 – 12:49 AM
What do they really want? judging by their responses, they want Rubashkin to behave like everyone else and give a proper ehlich shechita.
Reshoim? Meatloaf and 2:28 are wicked and cruel? What is your criteria for wicked and crule? Wanting a better standard for Yiddishkeit?
What is your position on shluging kaparos with chickens? Should we shecht them and leave the carcasses in black plastic bags to rot? Should we put on a spectacle for PETA to photograph , then wal away from the mess we made, so that someone else can clean up the guts and blood and feathers from the street. Who is the Rasha in that case???
it seems to me you don’t want to be bothered with facts.
1 The cut rubashkin agreed to stop was the one removing the trachea, at no time did they tell anyone that they will stop a simple second cut which is approved by the usda and there is no problem whatsoever al pi halacha (and there is no need to wait until the animal stops moving, i don’t know where you got that idea from?)
2 the reason they are after rubashkin is because they arent unionized (as opposed to aurora and treuth) and as we can see with the recent attack on meal mart, they will eventually go after anyone that they are trying to unionize.
3 the weinberg pen happens to be a hiddur as evidenced by the fact that it is only shechita that the rabanut in israel accepts.
to anonymous Says:
it seems to me you don’t want to be bothered with facts.
neither do you. Your ‘facts’ are not backed up with truth or reality.
All problems will go away when Rubashkin conforms to what everyone else is doing.
1 The cut rubashkin agreed to stop was the one removing the trachea, at no time did they tell anyone that they will stop a simple second cut
READ THE USDA REPORTS ON FM AND SEE FOR YOURSELF WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO
2 the reason they are after rubashkin is because they arent unionized (as opposed to aurora and treuth) and as we can see with the recent attack on meal mart, they will eventually go after anyone that they are trying to unionize.
TELL HIM TO TREAT HIS EMPLOYEES BETTER AND TO PAY THEM BETTER. THEN THE PROBLEMS WILL STOP.
3 the weinberg pen happens to be a hiddur as evidenced by the fact that it is only shechita that the rabanut in israel accepts.
THIS IS A ‘HIDDUR’ THAT WAS INVENTED ONLY FOR SHECHITA OUTSIDE OF ERETZ YISROEL IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. THERE IS MORE POLITICS IN IT THAT HIDDUR
anon 726 & 1119 or should I say YS from Lakewood?????
Is the trampoline in front of your house there so you are able to jump HIGHER in case no one pays any attention to you?
yolei the shochet has to cut the kuna and veshet by then its dead he also has to try to cut the blood vessel if not you are aloud to make a second cut look at my post above I mentioned where it say so i don’t know be a big baby I don’t know your agenda but I can promise you that you NEVER opened a shulcan urich in your live well its not to late you can start today.
The usda should demand agri to have videos on the kill floor and other areas (HAMAVIN YOVIN) with the ultamatum that if they refuse , then thier plant is seized by the federal government. This way everyone should be happy. NOTHING MORE TO HIDE!
1 i read the report, there is no reason (halacha or USDA – as qouted above from the USDA) to discontinue the simple second cut.
2 Agri now pays $10 and above to all of their employess, have any of the attacks stopped? all of the stories of mistreatment are from disgruntled workers or people looking for a u visa (which is issued to people who claim to have been abused) and agri hasn’t been found guilty of any of these allegations of mistreatment.
3 shechita munachas is not new, it is the way shechita was done throughout history.
berish Says:
yolei the shochet has to cut the kuna and veshet by then its dead he also has to try to cut the blood vessel if not you are aloud to make a second cut look at my post above I mentioned where it say so i don’t know be a big baby I don’t know your agenda but I can promise you that you NEVER opened a shulcan urich in your live well its not to late you can start today.
09-07-2008 – 12:12 PM
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I have no idea what you are trying to say. Can someone please edit his remarks.
Personal attacks should not be allowed. We are all aware that this is Chodesh Elul, and both sides want Rubashkin to exist. The difference between both sides is that Berish and McCain seem to think that Rubashkin did nothing wrong. His hiring practices, his honesty, his care for his employees are as good as it gets. The rest of the Frum community sees something lacking, and unless this suicide spiral stops, there will be no Rubashkin soon. That, I repeat, is something we do not want. But Berish has to wake up and see what is happening before it is too late.
I am reminded of the guy that jumped off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 70th floor, he was heard saying “So far, so good”.
As he passed the 50th floor, he was heard saying “So far, so good”. Well, I hear Rubashkin and their supporters saying “So far, so good”.
McCain – Palin In 08! Says:
anon 726 & 1119 or should I say YS from Lakewood?????
Is the trampoline in front of your house there so you are able to jump HIGHER in case no one pays any attention to you?
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Were you around when Moshe Finkel was the darling of Monsey and everyone held by him?
So far, so good.
“His shechita numbers are down by 50%, he has all the time in the world to let the animal bleed, but he still wants to do it in a way that NO OTHER SHLOCHT-HOUSE IN AMERICA WANTS TO DO IT.”
Agri claimed that pre-raid, they shechted 50 head of cattle a day/6 days a week, and 60,000 birds a pay/ 6 days a week.
Cattle shechita has not gone above 200 head a day, and birds remain between 30,000 and 38,000 per day.
“all of the stories of mistreatment are from disgruntled workers or people looking for a u visa (which is issued to people who claim to have been abused) and agri hasn’t been found guilty of any of these allegations of mistreatment.”
A U-visa is not issued to abused people. It can only be issued to people who are witnesses to a crime that the US Government want to remain in this country until the criminals are prosecuted.
As for guilt, two agri supervisors (in most business models supervisors are considered part of managment) have pleaded guilty to criminal charges and are awaiting sentencing.
post 35 did you see in shilchon urich about knocking the head of the cow after schita or cutting the heart its the same thing thing like a bullet.
slashes in the chest? oh I ich hub gemined we talking about a second cut?
weinberg pen? who else knows about the word of weinberg pen other than yudel shein I think you just discovered your identity.
to bleed out why does he have to wait more then any other slaughter house? can you explain me how alle does in his places like harora chicago ? truth baltimore ? texas? minneapolis? montreal veal? tronto? la? costorico? pennsylvania by veal? denver by lamb? peterson nj by lamnb? las pedras? colonones uruguay?
Is it not interesting that PETA never is interested in finding Mosl;ems guilty of selling unrefrigerated meat? No, PETA would never take that on because it only endangers humans.
To Berish:
All your questions were already answered. I have a few questions that need answering, also.
Why did he not have a second cut when everyone was around and did it when no one was looking.
Why did he use e-verify in Brooklyn years ago and not in Iowa.
Why were there stacks of blank ID cards in the office at the time of the raid?
Why do the goyish drivers have simonei kashrus on the trucks with them?
What are the procedures for separating Glatt frankfurters from non-glatt frankfurters?
What heters are used for driving on Shabbat, and for plant operations on Shabbat and Yom Tov?
When you answer these, we can start having an intelligent conversation.
Meatloaf – was the pre-raid 50 or 500 per day?