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New York City - Rabbis: Transgender Professor Teaching In Yeshiva University Outrageous |
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Befroe he changed to Mrs. Joy Ladin he was Mr Jay Ladin
Literature Professor Joy Ladin, formerly known as Jay Ladin, 47, showed up for her first day of school sporting pink lipstick, a purple shirt and a black skirt. She cheerfully strutted through the doors of the Midtown campus' main building, where she oversees the writing center.
Many at the Jewish university are horrified by the presence of the transgender professor. Some fear the news could cut alumni donations.
Ladin and the school won't comment on the situation, but some rabbis are shocked that she's still a member of the faculty.
"He's not a woman. "He's not a woman. He's a male with enlarged .......," said Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a senior dean at Yeshiva's rabbinical school and a professor of biology and medical ethics. "He's a person who represents a kind of amorality which runs counter to everything Yeshiva University stands for. There is just no leeway in Jewish law for a transsexual.
"There is no niche where he can hide out as a female without being in massive violation of Torah law, Torah ethics and Torah morality."
Even if not in spirit, Ladin remains part male.
Ladin wouldn't respond to Tendler's statement, and her only comment on the controversy was: "I'm not at liberty to discuss the matter."
The conflict with the university started at the end of 2006, three years after Ladin joined the faculty. Less than two weeks after the university gave the celebrated poetry and literature professor tenure, she told them that she was transgender and in the process of becoming a woman.
The university placed Ladin on indefinite leave, according to faculty members, who requested anonymity. After months of heated debate among rabbis, administrators, Ladin and her lawyers, the university agreed to let her return, according to sources close to the negotiations.
No one from the school would comment officially, but many faculty members, who spoke anonymously, said the decision was legally motivated.
"They didn't have a choice unless they wanted to be embroiled in a legal battle," said one faculty member. Ladin had to face a far messier legal battle on the home front.
Ladin's wife filed for divorce and custody of their three kids and moved out of their Amherst, Mass., house, according to friends.
Although some rabbis are outraged by Ladin's return, many students are celebrating.
Sarah Rindner, 25, of the Upper West Side, took Ladin's classes twice in 2006 before the professor went on leave.
"This is great news, and I'm sure the university won't regret it," said the former student, who now works as a high-school English teacher.
Shayndi Raice Sigall, 26, of the Upper East Side, took Ladin's class in 2004 and said her return would offer students a unique learning experience.
"There are transgender people all over the world, and this is a wonderful opportunity for the school to show students firsthand how you can respect and learn from someone who might be different from you," Sigall said.
The transgender community is also thrilled with the surprising decision.
"I think it's fabulous and wonderful. I don't know of any other religiously conservative university that employs someone trans," said Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality.
University President Richard Joel declined comment, except to say, "I'm proud of my university and all my faculty.
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Read Comments (142) — Post Yours »
1
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:16 AM Anonymous Says:
YU has a problem. They can't fire this teacher (I don't really know what gender to use!!) as the ACLU & the law will kill them. Is this teacher "frum"? Nebach...poor family. Whichever way you think, it is a tragedy for everyone. Is this a first in the frum world? Hope it's the last. Oh, sorry, that's not politically correct.
2
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:21 AM Anonymous Says:
As Rav Gifter ZT"L screamed about YU on Chol Hamoed Pesach 5758......THIS IS DESPICABLE!!
YU should close its doors.
3
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:25 AM shaylah Says:
Is he now called a Ben Ladin or Bat Ladin?
4
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:26 AM Anonymous Says:
This is not a YESHIVA University! Take off the word YESHIVA and call it TRANS UNIVERSITY.
5
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:37 AM r u serious Says:
Wow. Some liberalism comes back to bite YU. Everyone new that the" university" was out weighing the" yeshiva" part. This is proof. They legally have no choice.it is illegal not fire someone based on gender and that includes transgender. If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.
YU- R.I.P.
6
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:40 AM Use your head Says:
What do you expect, in Hebrew "he" means "she"! There is bound to be confusion.
7
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:43 AM Anonymous Says:
The most important sentence in the article--"some fear the news could cut donations"--with any luck!
8
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:44 AM Anonymous Says:
I really wonder, if a Certain professor that has been out there ripping into the entire community, will stand up and say something about this. We have all seen how certain people have come to show how much better they are then the rest of us. Well, as they say, and in this the Chicken (Rooster)has come home to roost.
9
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:46 AM Matzahlocal101 Says:
There was a reason that the munkaczer rov wrote concerning YU over 70 years ago:
"We have already seen the ra-banim that have gone forth from there"
and
"Regarding that which you write concerning yeshivas Rabbainu Yitzchok Elchonon (RIETS) I pity the poor gaon whose name is called upon it"
from two letters to Rav Shraga Faival Mendelovitch in 5694-5 (1935) in the sefer "igros Shapirin"
10
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:
In Berlin, the saying used to be: "Be a Jew at Home, and a Man on the Street." This one has a little bit of a different p'shat.
11
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:
this is gross and disgusting!!!
12
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:
Let's wait and see, how their spin doctors, will work with this one.
13
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:54 AM Anonymous sara Says:
let's see what rabbi tendler will do
with this teacher he would not have a problem with meztzte B"P
14
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:59 AM LEMAYSA Says:
Can he get an Aliah letorah or not???!!!!
15
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:
yea YU should really shut down that way we can just send our kids off to secular college instead with no shuir. idiots.
16
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:06 AM chakira Says:
How does it hurt anyone if a transgender person is allowed to teach English to young ladies in Stern College? From what I have heard, she is a tremendous professor, and there are far too few of those at Stern. What university is so interested in someone's equipment that they would fire one of their more effective instructors over it? Furthermore, how does it reflect any Jewish value to take someone who has already lost so much personally and cut off their source of income over such a decision? Gender reassignment may not be something most of the frum world wants or endorses, but it is also far from a cause to put someone who has done their job very well out on the street.
17
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:06 AM Anonymous Says:
will his kids be Ben ladin????
18
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:12 AM Anonymous Says:
Why can't he/she be fired? They have a contract and hired Jay Ladin, not Joy Ladin.
19
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:35 AM Anonymous Says:
Anon 10:00:
"yea YU should really shut down that way we can just send our kids off to secular college instead with no shuir. idiots."
Well at this point there is no difference. Better yet, rather have a teacher, that is from a different background, than to have to listen to this "person" talk.
20
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:37 AM Use your head Says:
Anonymous 10:12 - you're obviously not a lawyer. You can't renege on a contract due to a legal change of name!
21
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:38 AM Choizik Says:
Norman Lamm should step down immediatly!
22
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:40 AM Anonymous Says:
You guys are silly -- deal with it.
23
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:43 AM jj Says:
I find it interesting how all u guys are jumping down thier throat about a transgender but fail to throw out rabeim who are child molesters. molesters are way more harful then transgenders. get your priorities straight befoe u make bigger fools of ur self
24
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:
Duh, the reason HE can't be fired is because the intent to put HIM on leave was immediately following HIS announcement to become a woman. A discrimination suit would then become a nasty thorn in the side of YU, publicly and otherwise. This is a big problem with no easy way out. The ACLU smacks their lips to fight for such cases, especially in the religious realm.
25
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:54 AM Schmeckelfresser Says:
I agree it's gross, but what's the issur?
26
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:
As Rav Gifter said in 1991 when the YU opened its gay and lesbian society "the NY Times was mechadesh that Norman Lamm is a rabbi". The report carried the title "Gifter slaughters Lamm for Passover". It would seem that nothing has changed since!
27
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:
Too bad the teacher wasn't a child molestor; then all the above wiseacres would have no problem
28
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:59 AM Anonymous Says:
so much hatred here. disgusting. how can you be happy with so much fear and hate for other human beings inside yourselves? there isn't enough time on earth to treat people the way some of you folks seem to think people ought to be treated. go do something constructive.
29
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:00 AM Anonymous Says:
Chakira...
"Gender reassignment may not be something most of the frum world wants or endorses"
Please!
This is an Issur D'Oraysa, a clear prohibition, simply put an undisputed Avairah
30
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:05 AM murray Says:
Idiotic comment- "whats the issur"- are you kidding- I can think of about 10 halachic implications, and I am no scholar.
31
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:21 AM Avrohom Abba Says:
A Jew is a Jew. However, I do agree with R U Serious that the liberalism they always tried to show off at Yeshiva University has come back to haunt them. This reminds me of all those who claim Obama should be the President while of course they want to prove how unprejudiced they are (because he can not claim accomplishments that will give him the ability to deal with all the villains and haters who will laugh at him like he is a teddy bear trying to please everyone). So, Y.U. has been so busy trying to prove they are totally politically correct, they have lost touch with many of their earlier goals.
Now, they can only show off to all the liberals and they lost their deep contact with the Yeshiva part of their name.
32
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:
name them. what is the issur?
33
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:24 AM Anonymous Says:
If he/she has tenure, he/she might have a contract that prevents him/her from being fired.
34
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:28 AM chicago dude Says:
this man needs a brain transplant. Feel bad for his family and loved ones.
35
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:29 AM Anonymous Says:
He has Been - oh, I mean - Bin Laden who’s an unhappy meshugene - not a woman and not a man – bichlall nisht kein mentch. Halachically, is he required in mitzvos of a man, a woman or false under the category of mentally retarded who’s not required to do any mitzvos?
36
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:30 AM Anonymous Says:
He has Been - oh, I mean - Bin Laden who’s an unhappy meshugene - not a woman and not a man – bichlall nisht kein mentch. Halachically, is he required in mitzvos of a man, a woman or falls under the category of mentally retarded who’s not required to do any mitzvos?
37
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:30 AM Anonymous Says:
As many of the commenters (and the article) noted, there are serious legal issues involved - i think YU's hands are tied, as would any organization dealing with such a situation.
And I give YU (and Touro) credit for educating the next generation of Jews and giving them the opportunity to make a decent and honest living, unlike other groups that are either anti-work or that educate Jews about ways to lie and cheat the government.
- As an aside, this is a psychological issue that on some level is prevalent in the frum community, and should be addressed.
38
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:32 AM Anonymous Says:
Lehavdil elef alfei havdolos, the Yeshivah in Volozhin chose to close its doors rather than succumb to the regirung forcing them to teach secular studies.
If YU has ANY Jewish moral fiber left, it would fight this to'evah legally, based on freedom of religion, and if it lost, IT WOULD SHUT DOWN. PERIOD. FULL STOP.
...but we all know it won't. Hashem Yerachem.
39
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:40 AM Anonymous Says:
anon 11:30...
Yes, credit should be given to YU and Touro.
What does this have to do with the issue.
Transgender is a clear "Torah Prohibition" and must be treated as such. If in fact their is a psychological issue as well, that must also be addressed, with total compliance to the Torahs' commandments
40
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:45 AM Anonymous Says:
I think that those who are so outraged at YU's decision should offer to raise the millions of dollars it will cost them to violate this person's civil rights by firing him.
41
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:
Boys and Girls slow down... YU would love to get rid of this freak, but that's exactly what he wants to sue their pants off.
42
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:49 AM tsvika55 Says:
Disclosure: I went to YU
1) YU should close it's doors rather then alow such Chilul Hashem.
2) Any parent that has sent their child to YU should pull them right out as the premise was that is was a religious institution.
43
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:49 AM Shaul in Monsey Says:
All I can say is there is no Joy in Jayland.
44
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:53 AM murray Says:
Without getting too graghic- is there Not a major issue of genital mutilation, and/or castration?
45
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:
he is a freak and should be lock away. but is a Transgender a clear "Torah Prohibition"?? can you point me to the mitzvah in the Torah that prohibits it?
46
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:
Do you all know that Simcha Felder actually had a lesbian with the name Christine Q. To lecture the Orthodox girls at the Beth Yakov in Boro Park? Why are we only focusing on YU? This is about the only institution that we as frum people can go to, and receive higher education. Yes it is not perfect, so what. It seems to me if Simcha Felder Could have his posters all over Boro Park, and no one would rip them off, then why bother with YU? If it's good for the Chasidim, it's good for all of us.
47
Sep 08, 2008 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:
11:57 - for starters, the issurim re: castration and "lo tilbash" are inevitable in any of these cases.
48
Sep 08, 2008 at 12:27 PM Anonymous Says:
This is payback for Hiring David Berger
49
Sep 08, 2008 at 12:56 PM Erin Says:
Wow, who'd have thought that people who've suffered through so much hatred, persecution, and prejudice would turn those same attitudes towards another misunderstood minority.
50
Sep 08, 2008 at 01:02 PM Anonymous Says:
I don't see what the problem is. This is Ms. Ladin's choice and yes, there are people like that in the world. Be tolerant!
51
Sep 08, 2008 at 01:02 PM anonymous Says:
12:27
That same David Berger has written an excellent text detailing how a large well-known sect of judaism has - nebech - gone "off the derech". A very enlightening read!
52
Sep 08, 2008 at 01:06 PM Bruch Says:
Is this guy related to Bin Laden
53
Sep 08, 2008 at 01:20 PM Yonason Says:
Chakira 10:06 - You wrote: "How does it hurt anyone if a transgender person is allowed to teach English to young ladies in Stern College? . . . . What university is so interested in someone's equipment that they would fire one of their more effective instructors over it? Furthermore, how does it reflect any Jewish value . . . ? Gender reassignment may not be something most of the frum world wants or endorses, but it is also far from a cause to put someone who has done their job very well out on the street."
That is not the point. I am "liberal" and frequently spar with my more conservative brothers (and sisters) - but all of us need to remember that for a believing Jew the Torah comes first. My liberal sensibilities may object to the jeering tone of some of the comments on this story, and those sensibilities may motivate me to try and understand the personal anguish of this professor. But, if transexuality is something that is not permitted by the Torah . . . then that settles the issue when it comes to teaching at a Torah institution. Personal predilictions to the contrary have no bearing on the matter.
54
Sep 08, 2008 at 01:47 PM Anonymous Says:
He/Shes confusion, is causing everybody else confusion!!!!!!!
55
Sep 08, 2008 at 01:31 PM Susanne Says:
As a Stern alum I sincerely hope the women of Yeshiva treat her with respect. Shes obviously proven herself as a fit teacher and Yeshiva should make a kiddush Hashem and not show the world our infighting.
56
Sep 08, 2008 at 01:28 PM Anonymous Says:
gotta love the peanut gallery here. child molestation, mishkav zachar, etc. (which is called 'toevah' and is a chiyuv misah), everyone bends over backwards to be melamed zechus, 'you need 2 kosher eidim..' etc. etc.
here, all we know is that he is oiver a simple la'av (beged ishah), which is at worst a chiyuv malkos. posters on this site do worse aveiros than this without even trying. but most of all WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF HE IS JEWISH!! everyone here is klerring how many aveiros he is oiver, ready to lynch this person, while he's probably not even jewish (and certainly not frum). is beged ishah one of the 7 mitzvos b'nei noach?? and even if he has a sex change operation, is that one of the 7?? WHAT A BUNCH OF AM HA'ARATZIM GEMURIM YOU ARE.
i will admit that i don't understand this person, and i certainly find his gender identity crisis a bit strange. but did it ever occur to you people that the rest of the world probably finds the ridiculous way you look, dress, and act to be a bit perplexing(curly sidelocks? scraccgly beards? knickers? shtreimels? tichels? bekeshes??)
no matter what, there is one thing that all of us could stand to learn from this person, especially you sheep who can't wait to jump on the bandwagon and bash anything and everything that everyone else is bashing: at least this person has the courage (despite very clear challenges) to be true to himself and who he is. don't you think it would have been a lot easier for him to just remain 'jay'? the reason you people hate him so much is because as strange as he may be, he is true to himself - something which you could never be, or even imagine being. in fact, you are so brainwashed you wouldn't even know how to think for yourselves - all you know how to do is follow the herd and do and say whatever everyone else is.
when you understand this herd mentality, sadly, its really no wonder how you could willingly and knowingly send your very own children off to be 'korbonos' to the many sick child molesters in your midst, all the while defending the 'honor' and 'innocence' of these molesters.
maybe this year (for a change) some of you will listen to the shofar and actually WAKE UP!
57
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:00 PM Shua Says:
Torah prohibitions have already been noted - castration and cross-dressing are both prohibited by the Torah.
The difference between this case and typical gay/lesbian or non-Jewish professors is that this action, considered immoral by most students and faculty of the institution, is being carried out publicly. Others who differ ideologically with the institution and yet still teach there are sensitive enough to keep their differences private.
This is probably why people are so offended by this.
58
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:
Shua. Don't tell policy? and it is alright?
No. Jay Ladin should have respect and leave. He knew he was going to create a stir. He didn't care. He is forcing his opinions/his beliefs with an "in your face" attitude. He wants to gender change, that fine. Don't involve Torah Jews and the Institution(yeshiva) in that. Have respect and quietly move on and live your life elsewhere. He is forcing himself on others. That is going to backfire. He will be ostracized for being selfish. He will turn around and whine "predjudism"....when in reality it is intolerance to his "disrespect" for the institution.
59
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:
Just proves why our children should not be sent to university, or college or any form of higher education. It exposes them to everything the world has to offer.
60
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:29 PM Ploni Says:
YU figured out a way recently to oust Prof. James Otteson, the distinguished head of their Honors Program, in part because of his politically incorrect conservative views. Based on that precedent, if they really wanted to, they could oust Ladin. Instead, YU President says he is proud of him! Oy!
61
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:25 PM Anonymous Says:
Is the professor Jewish? it doesn't say so in the article. If not, he most probably wasn't over any issurim.
I still think it's a shandah.
62
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:25 PM keep smiling Says:
is there any problem of yichud what is His/her halacha tefilin etc..?
63
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:15 PM Use your head Says:
Anon. 1:28 - I happen to agree with your points. However, the plural of "Am Ha'aretz" is not, as you put it, "AM HA'ARATZIM" but rather "Amay Ha'aretz". So maybe you should tone down the rhetoric.
64
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:26 PM Shloimy Says:
As far as the issurim involved, again not to get graphic, but according to the NY Post, castration etc. did not take place.
That is not to say that other issurim g'murim d'oraisa are not present in that situation. They surely are.
65
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:25 PM shmuel Says:
Is there any reason to think that this can't happen in any yeshiva gedolah or ketanna that has secular studies and takes US gvt funds.
66
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:28 PM anonymous Says:
Wonder why the concert ban rabbis are only vocal when there are lies against an innocent concert promoter but not on an issue like this. They are motivated by money, power and greed and it is time to take the power away from these fake people.
67
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:08 PM Hersh Says:
Throw this "Petzua Daka" out of the University!
68
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:
It's all up to those attending his/her class, to abstain from ever attending a lecture given by this Rooster.
It does not need to come to having to issue any formal kol koray's. Every person with even an ounce of sense, will refuse to partake in this class.
69
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:52 PM Anonymous Says:
LOL Yeshiva U. really has themselves in a jam!
Seriously, I don't see how this is any different than hiring a teacher who is mechalel shabbos (or any other issurim) like Touro and most yeshiva highschools do. If you're willing to overlook chillul shabbos then this should be no different. If it would be younger kids i would understand that it may lead to ackward questions but this is college-aged people that we're talking about.
70
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:
I dont know how they do his contract, but can they fire him for breeching Torah Law?
71
Sep 08, 2008 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:
All you crazy liberal people obviously have no clue what real judaism is, what its about, and what it stands for.
The intolerance is not disrespect for anything.
The intolerance is because these people feel disrespected by someone who is openly desecrating the Torah in MANY ways... which is a desecration of judaism. It clearly states that no man or male animal should ever be castrated.
If you have a problem with that, go back to being liberal somewhere else outside the frum world.
72
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:
"This is not a YESHIVA University! Take off the word YESHIVA and call it TRANS UNIVERSITY."
"if transexuality is something that is not permitted by the Torah . . . then that settles the issue when it comes to teaching at a Torah institution."
"Any parent that has sent their child to YU should pull them right out as the premise was that is was a religious institution."
All three comments above betray a general ignorance of the structure of YU. Yeshiva University is a Yeshiva and a College. The two institutions are independent, though they share the same campus. The college (actually colleges) is not strictly speaking a Torah institution- many non-Jews study there. Ladin, may he have a speedy recovery, is not an employee at the Yeshiva. Would any Yeshiva be able to legally fire such a person who's employed in maintenance or any other non-academic department?
There has never been a gay club at the Yeshiva.
A similar situation exists at the Yeshiva At IDT. Should we demand the IDT Yeshiva close if there were a gay employee at IDT? The IDT Yeshiva is part of Thomas Edison State College. I assume there's a gay club at TESC- should we therefore force the Yeshiva to close?
I suspect those who are calling for YU to close have another agenda. YU has a sort of monopoly of Talmudei Chachamim when it comes to their Roshei Yeshiva. The American Yeshiva world profit immensely if they could lure away top-notch Torah talent from the Heights. But, I'm afraid the brain drain started and ended with Lander's.
73
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:50 PM Yonason Says:
Cross dressing and castration are ossur; but immoral? That is a judgement, not a p'sach halacha. Things like putting people who violate tznius in hospitals, allowing sexual mollesting rebbes to continue working around children, ignoring the health and safety of employees and hating all goyim are immoral.
74
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:49 PM YANKEL Says:
She/he or he/she is apparantly Jewish from a comment it made on a transgender Jewish website on April 10,2007:
"As a currently transitioning practicing Jew"
What does such a person say during the morning Brochas?
75
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:
This story brings out the best of this sites readers. Personally, I really appreciate your narrow minded commenst based upon lack of knowledge halachik, human nature and life.
It is because of this stupidity I gave up being frum or Orthodox or whatever you folks call it. I now live happily as a Jewish citizen of the world following Hashem's will following Torah and halacha. Thankfully, Hashem gave me the chachma and my parents gave me the tools and insights to be a true yere shamayim and not get caught up with your so-called religious fervor.
Unfortunately, if you folks keep this up, more of your children will "go off the derech" and give up being yere shamayim and become bona fide apikorsim.
Good work everyone. I am certain the Rebono Shel Olam is rejoicing ... not.
76
Sep 08, 2008 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:
3:31 - i couldnt have said it better myself - great post.
77
Sep 08, 2008 at 04:10 PM Anonymous Says:
Doesn't one of YU's schools have some sort of Gay society?
78
Sep 08, 2008 at 04:10 PM Anonymous Says:
Oy, nebech! Rabbi-Doctor Tendler is "ous mentch". Hey Tendler, there is no leeway in Jewish law to set foot on Har Habayit!!.
79
Sep 08, 2008 at 04:08 PM YANKEL Says:
The Post article makes it clear that there has been no castration yet, so the only issur so far is the cross dressing. Must they establish a seperate restroom for he/she?
80
Sep 08, 2008 at 04:20 PM Yonason Says:
Anonymous 3:43 - As you can see from what I said at 3:50, I share certain of you views . . . BUT . . . If you ever really had Torah, you would not let yourself be divorced from Yiddishkeit because of the intolerance and ignorance of too many of today's Brooklyn Ghetto Yidden. Torah is eternal . . . they are not.
81
Sep 08, 2008 at 04:25 PM MAYER Says:
Just for the record.
Let’s all calm down
sorry to tell you but chilul shabos is much worsh then this. so since chilul shabos is ok then they should be able to handle this also.
82
Sep 08, 2008 at 04:28 PM Lock & Load Says:
Whats the Tznius Halacha for him/her
83
Sep 08, 2008 at 04:53 PM Anonymous Says:
"I suspect those who are calling for YU to close have another agenda. YU has a sort of monopoly of Talmudei Chachamim when it comes to their Roshei Yeshiva. The American Yeshiva world profit immensely if they could lure away top-notch Torah talent from the Heights. But, I'm afraid the brain drain started and ended with Lander's."
Don't worry, Landers won't be taking any more YU Roshei Yeshiva. As a current student in landers i could tell you that they are leaning much more to taking right-wing Rebbeim than YU Rebbeim. Incidentally, the Lander's T-shirt this past year said "Torah Unaddah" (Torah and nothing) which is obviously a play on YU's "Torah Umaddah"...Not that I agree with them.
84
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:43 PM Chaim Says:
The issue of whether or not the action of surgically reassigning a persons sexual identity is against Torah is not such a simple issue as it may first appear.
First the Torah does deal with the plight of a Hermaphrodite and the legal status of such a person under Jewish Law. They are obligated to perform both male and female mitzvahs. But this is in the case of a person who has both the outer sexual characteristics of both male and female.
The Torah explains in detail what determines an hermaphrodite based on medical knowledge and understanding at the time. As we know with other medical issues that have evolved in halacha as medical knowledge has increased so has the Halacha developed.
So today we know that a person can be born with internal organs of a women and have the external organs of a male. Their are many medical variations on the effects of hormonal and chromosomal medical issues during pregnancy that can cause many variations of the Hermaphrodite condition.
So in the time of the Gomorrah they had the good sense not to throw out the poor souls who were suffering a medical/biological issue from the Jewish people but rather made rulings on what they should do in respect of the various gender differences in religious observance.
In the case of a person who is Gender Dysphoric the issue may be solely psychological but modern scientific research is showing that in most cases it is biological. Yes, females do have different brain structures and many transgendered have been shown to have the same female brain structures.
But getting back to the Hermaphrodite we can now understand based on today's medical knowledge that some individuals may have been born with the external characteristics of a male or female but be wired from birth in their brain biology to be the opposite gender.
Other gender confusing medical situations Dr's come across are males born with outer male organs while also having internal female organs such as ovaries. In fact it is more common than many would care to realize.
So we have an outwardly male person who has battled with an internal gender identity. I don't have any way of knowing if this is based on say a biological issue such as being exposed to an increased amount of estrogen during fetal development thereby affecting the brain to develop a female characteristic or is psychological.
In either case we are dealing with a medical issue and not a moral issue. How we deal with such a person is the real moral issue.
Halacha also goes into what determines the gender in respect of Halachic/ritual observance. It is clearly stated that the gender determination in respect of Halacha is based on the external organs of the person. So if a person has the external organs of a female even if this person previously had organs of male then they according to Halacha are female. This is irrespective of the internal organs since the determination for religious observance and gender characterization is based on the external organs. Again, read the Gemorah's dealing with Hermaphrodites.
So we have a situation of a person who has undergone a complete sex reassignment then there is no maleness about them Halachacialy therefore they would be relieved from putting on Tefillin and being called up to the Torah. Having female organs they should refrain from being in situations that could be questionable with men. And during davening they shouldn't be sitting were they could create a distraction for the men who have a hard enough time davening without being distracted by a beautiful looking women. So the gender reassigned person should sit with the women if this is the normal practise in the place of davening.
This all being said. It doesn't deal with the Torah prohibition against castration. We do know that many laws are suspended when it comes to saving a life. And I am not trying to be clever. A person afflicted with a gender dysphoric condition is on most cases at a high risk of suicide. The instance of suicide amongst gender conflicted and untreated persons is dangerously high. We know that if you have any doubt whether or not you may be sick with say a chest pain then you must seek medical help even if it means transgressing the Laws of Shabbos or even Yom Kippur. This is because the Torah places the saving of a life above almost all things. So why do people have difficulty in accepting the suspension of one Halacha in order to follow the higher Halacha of saving a life. And the directives regarding saving a life are not restricted to instances of proven life danger but even reasonable doubt of life danger.
Wearing the clothes of say a Female while having the outer sex characteristics of a male during the transition and prior to surgery is an issue Halachicaly. But when one considers it as part of medical treatment for a potentialy at life risk individual in my humble opinion is not against Torah. And after sex reassignment surgery it is most definitely not in issue.
I think the persons situation is very sad. Who knows the pain and suffering this person has had to go through for most of their life.
For those who will call me a radical liberal I just want to say that I am an orthodox male who follows the Torah as best as one can. I keep Shabbos and Kosher and Daven with a minyan. I am politically conservative and I am not a social radical. I am just a simple Jew who does not accept intolerance of differences when the Torah itself deals with these issues with compassion and humanity.
I would ask what is more immoral and a greater Torah prohibition. Cheating and Stealing or wearing a dress? I am always amazed with the fixation on sexual issues by some Rabbinic leaders while these same persons have nothing to say in respect of say things such as the theft from the public purse by persons who misuse the social welfare system by fraud and deception to suport their Yeshivish lifestyle.
Anyway, just my opinion from a simple Jew for what it is worth.
85
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:36 PM realist Says:
anon 11:58 is Sol from Flatbush!!!
86
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:34 PM Anonymous Says:
Am I as a male allowed to be alone with her in a closed room is there an issur yichad?
87
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:31 PM Marriage councelor Says:
The tummel will stop when Rabbi Lamm will walk in as Rebetzin Lamm.
88
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:27 PM shmuel Says:
R Eliyahu Soloveichik (son of R Ahron z"l )a rebbi at Landers' and his son is a theology student at Princeton, asst rabbi at KJ and went to YU. His daughter is a student at Stern so how right wing canthe faculty be at Landers?
89
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:18 PM Anonymous Says:
why is this stupidity being written about anyway, are any chareidishe yidden interested in this person with a warped mind and in YU to boot ?
90
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:17 PM Anonymous Says:
just because he got himself implants and wears a skirt doesnt mean he has any less civil rights than anyone else. this is a civil rights matter.
the yeshivishe velt that protects molesters, wife beaters and theives should sit down and shut up about this as it is really very silly and not much of an issue
91
Sep 08, 2008 at 06:15 PM Anonymous Says:
I do believe that YU would love to fire her/him, whatever, but their hands are tied.
But I do find it hilarious, rolling on the floor kind of hilarious, how liberalism came back to bite them in the ass. lol.. lol.. lol.. lol
92
Sep 08, 2008 at 06:13 PM gevalt Says:
5:18,
Beleive it or not there are DOZENS of "chareidishe" yidden at yu everyday.
Many of yu's employees are chassidish and there are many chassidim regularly enrolled as students at the wurzweiler school of social work. additionally there are many who frequent the yu judiac library.
And no, no one really cares that theres a guy in an office down town at stern who got chest implants and wears a skirt.
93
Sep 08, 2008 at 05:59 PM Anonymous Says:
Hey geniuses- if you read the article carefully you would note that this person has NOT had surgery yet- i.e. no castration.
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Sep 08, 2008 at 05:59 PM Anonymous Says:
"It is clearly stated that the gender determination in respect of Halacha is based on the external organs of the person. So if a person has the external organs of a female even if this person previously had organs of male then they according to Halacha are female."
You are citing only one view in halacha - which was adopted by the Tzitz Eliezer who certainly was no slouch in halacha. However, this view is a relatively recent view and many are of the opinion that the notion that we determine a person's status as male or female based on external organs is only at the time of birth. Subsequent surgical or other human alterations does not change a person's status. Rabeinu Chananel explicitly states that a male who engages in sexual relations with another male who had some type of sex change operation is guilty of mishkav zachor which is punishable by death.
"This all being said. It doesn't deal with the Torah prohibition against castration."
There is a shitah (not unanimous) that the issur against castration only applies to a male that is able to have children. By the time this procedure would be conducted, the person is irreversibly sterile due to the hormone treatment. So according to this view, the main halachic question arises in relation to the hormone treatment, not the actual act of castration. The Tzitz Eliezer addresses this issue in one of his tshuvos.
95
Sep 08, 2008 at 06:27 PM gevalt Says:
id rather go to yu that had one ladin in one office on one campus than a yeshiva that harbors and protects people like kolko and margulies
96
Sep 08, 2008 at 06:51 PM Joe Says:
To Gevalt:
Your an IDIOT!
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Sep 08, 2008 at 07:13 PM Anonymous Says:
Anon 1:28:
"the reason you people hate him so much is because as strange as he may be, he is true to himself - something which you could never be, or even imagine being. in fact, you are so brainwashed you wouldn't even know how to think for yourselves - all you know how to do is follow the herd and do and say whatever everyone else is."
I'm so glad somebody pointed this out. It is so true!
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Sep 08, 2008 at 08:46 PM Chaim Says:
Anonymous wrote at 5:59 "You are citing only one view in halacha - which was adopted by the Tzitz Eliezer who certainly was no slouch in halacha. However, this view is a relatively recent view and many are of the opinion that the notion that we determine a person's status as male or female based on external organs is only at the time of birth."
I profer that the contention of gender being determined by the external genitalia is based on not only recent psak halacha but from the Gomorrah itself that discuses this issue in relation to Hermaphrodites. And unlike your contention that the determination of gender based on genital observation is restricted to the time of birth no such time of determination is made in the Gemorah. In fact the Gemorah talks about the assessment and sexual determination based on observation of a grown person. Having not taken a survey on this matter I am not sure of you other contention that "many" hold your view regarding the limitation of determination to the time of birth. The many may be wrong in any case because they have failed to research the matter but rather have formed an opinion based on an opinion they may have heard. This is not how halacha is determined. So what if many hold a wrongly formed opinion, this does not argue to the halachic merit or demerit of the proposition. I have pointed to where the Halacha in fact contradicts the time limitation to birth as being the sole time in which a gender determination can be made in respect of gender. Since you a want to be arguing Halacha please provide a Halachic source and its source in Torah. Not just the opinion of a Rabbi that is then said to be the view held by many.
You then state - "Subsequent surgical or other human alterations does not change a person's status." On what Halacha is this statement made. If it is because of your earlier contention that the gender is determined at birth only and any subsequent observation later on is irrelevant then I would say your position is not defensible unless you prove a source in Torah for this opinion that contradicts what have I have referred to from the Gemorah.
You also stated "Rabeinu Chananel explicitly states that a male who engages in sexual relations with another male who had some type of sex change operation is guilty of mishkav zachor which is punishable by death." This is very misleading of you. Rabeinu Chananel talks specifically about a male person who has a wound or hole that is used by aonther male to have intercourse. This was prohibited by Rabeinu Chananel. His opinion did not deal with a person who had had a complete casteration and removal of male the male organ. The Gemorah is clear that a person who's gender is indeterminate because of both male and female organs (an hermaphrodite) is prohibited from having relations with a man. So Rabeinu Chananel was correct then saying that a person who made a whole "only" and subsequent relations with another male was issur.
In any case, Rabbeinu Chananel's position does not express an opinion of a person who's genitalia has been changed to that of a female and who has no male genitalia.
Now regarding castration. I pose this question. What if a person is diagnosed with testicular cancer of both testicles and required removal of both testicles in order to save his life. What then would the Halacha be? Do not under assume the life and death position of a gender dysphoric patient. As I stated in the earlier post the instance of suicide of gender dysphorics who do not transition is sadly very high. A person so afflicted is subjected to great mental and emotional anguish and is at a very high risk of death by suicide.
I am not impressed with modern day Rabbi's who take snippet's from the Torah to fashion an argument to fit their biased views. Perhaps the intellectual shallowness of so many modern day Rabbis is because so many have learned to accept views and opinions without little or no questioning. Let alone rigorous and intellectualy honest analysis of the Torah.
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Sep 08, 2008 at 08:32 PM Anonymous Says:
It has been proven that better than 85% of crossdressers are HETROSEXUAL. Where did it say that Ms.Ladin wasn't?
There are many frum men that crossdress, be it in their own homes or out in public, me being one of them. There is a ceratin aura that one gets when wearing women's clothes. It gives one a chance to get away from harsh realities, and relax.
It is no worse than a poker game,and probably better as no one gets hurt.
Why are we busy with this narishkiet when there are Kolkos, Mondrowitzs and only the ribono shel olam knows how many more?
Why don't we worry about our kids on drugs, thse people that don't have food on the table,the sick, the elderly. Why are we busy with this issue?
The fact that she wears women's clothes at worst is only an issur malkos and then there are certaion guidlines ie: she wears them to attract men for sexual purposes.
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Sep 08, 2008 at 08:28 PM gevalt Says:
Joe, thats you're not your as in mine, not as "you are"
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Sep 08, 2008 at 08:27 PM Dr. Jillian T. Weiss Says:
It's not an issur if one is androgynos or tum tum - there have been psukim on this point and some say it's issur some say not. I mean its in the Gemara (Mishna Bikurim). Anyway, if we were going to throw out everyone who committed an aveirah, there'd be no one left there.
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Sep 08, 2008 at 08:02 PM Anonymous Says:
Let's see all those defending this thing, react when one of their Children decide to follow in the footsteps of their revered Professor, how will they take it, Huh?
Do you any of you want this to happen? The only way to try to prevent that, is by letting those people find other places to work, and live.
103
Sep 08, 2008 at 07:54 PM Anonymous Says:
Funny how these YU's are exerting every effort in defending their fiasco, instead of coming out and saying that he is not one of theirs, like Obama did. A wrong will always stay a wrong.
It does not take a Velt's Chochom, to say, that you have plenty of your own schmutz, but for everyone that has always listened to how these "Smarter than Thou", have always put everyone, and everything around it just sounds like to Music to our ears, when the Shoe is on the other foot.
Yes, chareidim have a lot of faults, everyone knows that, since you've always made it clear, but GEVALD, this is YU. Do you think, the Reb Y. Salanter, Reb S. R. Hirsch, would have tolerated this? Of Course not!
Yidden from YU, and all your NuchSchmekers! You can either swallow it down, or distance yourselves from this fiasco, it's all up to you.
104
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:15 PM bigwheeel Says:
r u serious 9:37AM. ...it is ILLEGAL NOT TO FIRE SOMEONE base on gender... You mean, they HAVE TO FIRE HIM/HER/IT Because it's illegal NOT TO...!!!
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Sep 08, 2008 at 09:08 PM toraheyes Says:
I find the SATMAR yeshiva with a child abuser as principal is a much worse issue, when are the rebbeim and parents going to strike and close down THAT school?
106
Sep 08, 2008 at 09:28 PM Chaim Says:
An interesting statment from another discussion board.
Rov Avraham Bloomenstiel said...
The opinion of the Tzitz is somewhat ambiguous, and you are correct that he eventually rules that the status of the transsexual is likewise ambiguous (androgynous).
I personally heard R'Waldenburg say it, and confirmed it with 3 of his talmidim, that, b'svora and b'limud, that gender reassignment surgery did actually change halachic gender. However, his ruling le-ma'aseh in the 22nd chelek is intentionally conservative and cautious.
107
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:43 PM Anonymous Says:
Jay/Joy was not castrated.
108
Sep 08, 2008 at 10:27 PM mikey Says:
Joel must go
Tenure must be eliminated
YU must stop taking taxpayer money and then they can fire this freak because as a private religious organization they can hire and fire whom they want.
Meanwhile they can suspend this freak without pay for misrepresenting him-her-it self on an application as they reconsider legal action for this misrepresentation.
No one says students and faculty can't protest and stage a "walk out" and stop paying tuition.
Joels school of the future has brought all sorts of perverse craziness to YU its time the board stepped in.
109
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:41 PM chakira Says:
הקב"ה gives a special הבטחה to סריסים and has רחמנות on them; yet here we are pillorying other human beings and calling them despicable names. No one has really commented on the pain and torment Ladin has undergone in her transition. No one here seems to care that this person has lost her family. The most bloodthirsty of you want to compound this tragedy by having this person fired from her job. How does this reflect any scintilla of mercy and kindness? It seems to me that theres a big surfeit of righteous indignation here without much in the way of righteousness.
110
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:33 PM Anonymous Says:
A Catholic school, such as St. John's University, would insist on its right to uphold their religious beliefs.
Only a Jewish college would put up with this.
111
Sep 08, 2008 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:
if you morons would bother to read the article youd see that all he did was make his chest bigger and put on womens clothing.
nothing was cut off, he is still a man and would appear so in the mikva
112
Sep 09, 2008 at 12:08 AM Anonymous Says:
chakira, i am familiar with your twisted publications. This too shows how perverted you are. G-d's mercy on the impotent is clearly for those who by no fault of thiers cannot have children/ are sterile. One who violates an open negative commandment in the torah cannot bring onto himself hashem's mercy through that very act.
113
Sep 09, 2008 at 12:05 AM Anonymous Says:
Wrong, this amounts to chemical castration.
114
Sep 09, 2008 at 01:09 AM Stern Student Says:
Hello.
I am a student at Stern College. I took an English class with Dr. Ladin before she took her leave of absence. She is a wonderful and dedicated professor. She truly cares about her students. There is no need to judge her based on her gender. She is not a rabbi, rather, she is a secular studies teacher, who is exceptionally talented in her work and committed to pursuit of excellence from her students. I am proud that my university recognizes this and will allow her to continue to teach its students.
115
Sep 09, 2008 at 01:11 AM chakira Says:
Someone who goes through tremendous psychological difficulty may unfortunately transgress some prohibitions. This is attributable to the trauma of those conditions and cannot be assigned as a "fault" to the person. No one can know the will of God nor the "clear" meaning of the פסוק but what we do hope is for compassion from people who are ostensibly close to such compassionate texts.
116
Sep 09, 2008 at 06:52 AM Frum Funky Fab (slightly eidel) Says:
All people who are commenting that this is "disgusting", please note. Disgusting is not the word.
What a tragedy, all around.
1 - This teacher is a person and a human being, going through a huge nisayon. We don't know what steps and struggles he (yes, HE) has been through to bring himself to this place.
2 - The school is in a no-win situation. If they keep this fellow on staff, they are bringing a negative morality into the school. If they fire him, MAJOR legal battle.
I wonder what the halacha is in this situation. (SO FREAKING COMPLICATED!!!!)
117
Sep 09, 2008 at 02:04 AM anon Says:
נצור לשונך מרע ושפתיך מדבר מרמה
118
Sep 09, 2008 at 02:00 AM Gefilte Fish Says:
He looked much better as a man, now he just looks like an oisgeklapte hoyshaane!
whats the hallacha regarding him wearing a skirt? is his singing considered kol isha?
119
Sep 09, 2008 at 01:54 AM Anonymous Says:
The biggest tragedy in all this is the comment of stern student who places secular studies above morality and by referring to him as her as matter of fact - adopting the liberal agenda.
120
Sep 09, 2008 at 01:40 AM Anonymous Says:
funny how tendler is against a tranny but will go onto the har habayis and fight against chatzitza.
also funny how YU would fire Dr Otteson, who was beloved by all his students for having an anonymous blog but will hire this meshuge
as a chareidishe yid who is in YU in order to go to med school, i am ashamed.
121
Sep 09, 2008 at 01:27 AM Chaim Says:
The person has been chemically castrated. Non functioning and very unable to do anything manly now. Even the poor things muscles will have become weaker rendering Joy truly part of the weaker sex. These are some of the effects of female hormones taken by a male over a period of time. Being no longer able to have an erection and being infertile which is the medical result of taking estrogen for longer than 6 months I see no impediment Halachachly to Joy being physically castrated and completing the sexual reassignment.
By the way I would like to understand what a Jew should do who has done such a thing to themselves, does Tshuva, if such a thing is at all needed. Are they to be considered no longer Jewish? I don't know the basis in Halacha for this view. Being then still Jewish, and having now done Tshuva and wanting to attend Shule where does this person now sit in an orthodox Shule? Or do we tell them they are no longer welcome to pray to G-D in a Shule? By the way, while visiting the Shule to pray and in need of visiting the toilet which toilet should a Rabbi decide should be used. Should the person who now has female genitalia be placed in the embarrassing position of using a male bathroom if some Rabbi rejects the gender reassignment? We all know the prohibition against public embarrassment. The prohibition against embarrassing a fellow Jew publicly is so strong that we are told that a person who does such a thing has no part in the World to come.
So what does an orthodox Rabbi do now they are confronted with a transgendered Jew who now wants to keep torah and mitzvot. Is this not the very reason why the Gemorah has dealt in such a humane way dealing with the plight of a Hermaphrodite.
Let this person wear a dress as this is more in keeping with the persons now new physical reality. Let them use the girls room rather then be publicly embarrassed and put in physical and or moral danger by visiting a male bathroom. And let them as a Jew continue to be able to come to Shule and pray albeit no longer being part of a minyan. Or should we now have minyans with physically female persons in dresses. Mind you that would be an interesting one to picture. A women with a size D, tight fitting skirt and blouse with flowing hair davening with a minyan of Chassidim.
122
Sep 09, 2008 at 01:04 AM Anonymous Says:
id rather have my kids in a classroom with ten ladins than with one kolko
id rather have a yeshiva run byt 10,00 rabb lamms
than even one lipa margulies
123
Sep 09, 2008 at 12:55 AM Anonymous Says:
If one had to choose, what would you do
Think people who would you rather have teaching you children Kolco/Mondrowitz or Ladin?
Why is it that all the people screaming to shut down YU have no problem with Torah temimha and satmer staying open and might i add still sending their children to the school that harbored child molestors?
Whatever one thinks about Ladin, do you really think it will damage or influence the students (even if they where very young, yeshiva age) Do you think that someone will say "I want to be woman too." I do not think so and most likely the evidence back me up.
On the other hand, what the Frum yeshivas did and are doing, hiring and keeping child molester as teachers and rabbis the evidence proves it can cause damage for a few generations. And might I add that child molestation is Ausser.
At least Ladin is between him and hashem while child molestation is between the molestor the victim and hashem.
BTY I would choose to have ladin be my kids teacher Rabbi hands down over a child molesters.
However, it seems most people on this board would choose the frum child molester, over a transgenders person. I say this since there are more outrage and comments to close YU, then I ever saw against a Yeshiva's and Robbonim that harbored a child molester and gave full access to young children to the molester.
124
Sep 09, 2008 at 09:25 AM Anonymous Says:
This week's Torah parsha, Ki Tatzai, says, that "That which pertains to aman shall not be upon a woman, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment for an abomination to the Lord your G-d is whoever does these things" to which Rashi says one reason he does it is "to go and sit among women". YU is making an affront to Hashem by allowing this person to teach its women.
125
Sep 09, 2008 at 09:26 AM Anonymous Says:
To anonymous 5:34 PM: The yichud problem is that this person who is not yirei Shomoyim is alone with women.
126
Sep 09, 2008 at 10:59 AM Chaim Says:
A few points that need to be made once again
1. According to sme respected Halachich authority's this person once completed SRS is a Halachich women
2. Since this person has been chemicaly castrated it is less problematic for them to be physically castrated.
3. Medical decisons based on the risk to life can be brought into play to Halachachly authorize this person to complete the sexual reasignement. Given the risk of suicide amongst non treated patients with this affliction it is a real risk to life to not follow through with a medical reasignement.
4. After medical reasignement (SRS) has been completed then Torah sources would hold that this person would be then considered Female with all the strictures and requirements of a Female under Jewish Orthodox law.
5. In the interim while this person is only chemically castrated then the prohibition against wearing womens clothing may apply. I say "may" apply since when reading Rashi's explanation regarding the Biblical prohibition against men wearing womens clothes it was in order to stop a man masquerading as women so as to go in disquise and "pretend" to be a women so as to sit with them and we all no why a man would want to sit in room with a whole lot of women - he has only one thing on his mind. And it is this one thing on his mind that the Torah is trying to protect the women from. The case of chemically castrated male who has been treated because of a psycho medical reason does not fall into the category and reason for this prohibition.
So I would ask, where is the imorality? And is not our behaviour towards a fellow Jew who has a medical affliction not bring into question issues of moral behaviour.
127
Sep 09, 2008 at 11:18 AM Oiberchochom Says:
I would say in response to those who are justifying this procedure based on the heter of pikuach nefesh-suicide risk, would you say the same thing regarding a man with homosexual inclinations coming out of the closet and being true to themselves and not following the "herd" mentality! Our whole existence in this sphere, the Torah teaches us is to correct & perfect our innate flaws. The Torah offers a few examples, such as one who was born with the mazel of dam-blood should become a shochet or mohel rather than just say I can't help it I was born this way, it is in my biological makeup, I have to be true to myself and kill people! Over the last few decades the public has been brainwashed that all disorders such as homosexuality are biologicaly predetermined. Ever since the APA decreed by a vote of it's members in the 70's that homosexuality is not a disorder and they will no longer treat it we have been on a downward spiral on this and similar issues.
Such individuals as Dr. Laden should receive our sympathy and encouragement if they get the proper help and treatment they desperately need. There are Dr's who specialize in treating hormonal imbalances and disorders with natural remedies in order to restore or set them to their requisite state. Those who follow this path are the real ones who are rejecting the herd mentality of the secular humanist majority culture of which we endure and suffer in our present golus. Also regarding the comparison to child molesters, there is one clear difference as far as I know. The alleged molesters all deny their supposed acts while in Dr. Laden's case he/she went public and is making no bones about it. But if I am mistaken and any of these molester scoundrels confess to their crimes then of course they should be fired immediately. If they are kept on I would never send my children to such a yeshiva! Of course if there are a pattern of allegations against a Rebbi it would behoove the hanhala to take action. If they didn't I also wouldn't send my children there. May Hashem assist us all in our lifetime work of tikun hamidos vehanefesh. Haba Letaher Mesayin Oso!
128
Sep 09, 2008 at 07:13 PM Anonymous Says:
whats a torah value? does it have a definition? who decides what they are? why are there different "torah values" for monsey, flatbush and lakewood? what about omaha or houston?
129
Sep 09, 2008 at 07:06 PM Anonymous Says:
09-09-2008 - 9:26 AM Chaim Says:
whatever Chaim says has no torah values he made it all up, quote some of our poskim saying what you just made up, and we will check if it rtue what you say.
130
Sep 09, 2008 at 08:06 PM Chaim Says:
Oiberchochom Says: at 09-09-2008 - 11:18 AM
I would say in response to those who are justifying this procedure based on the heter of pikuach nefesh-suicide risk, would you say the same thing regarding a man with homosexual inclinations coming out of the closet and being true to themselves and not following the "herd" mentality!
PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE A MEDICAL CONDITION OF TRANSGENDERISM OR AS IT IS REFERED TO IN THE MEDICAL WORLD AS GENDER DYSPHORIA AS HOMOSEXUALITY. IT IS NOT THE SAME AND IS TRETED IN HALACHA AS BEING DIFERENT.
Our whole existence in this sphere, the Torah teaches us is to correct & perfect our innate flaws. The Torah offers a few examples, such as one who was born with the mazel of dam-blood should become a shochet or mohel rather than just say I can't help it I was born this way, it is in my biological makeup, I have to be true to myself and kill people! Over the last few decades the public has been brainwashed that all disorders such as homosexuality are biologicaly predetermined. Ever since the APA decreed by a vote of it's members in the 70's that homosexuality is not a disorder and they will no longer treat it we have been on a downward spiral on this and similar issues.
Such individuals as Dr. Laden should receive our sympathy and encouragement if they get the proper help and treatment they desperately need. There are Dr's who specialize in treating hormonal imbalances and disorders with natural remedies in order to restore or set them to their requisite state. Those who follow this path are the real ones who are rejecting the herd mentality of the secular humanist majority culture of which we endure and suffer in our present golus. Also regarding the comparison to child molesters, there is one clear difference as far as I know. The alleged molesters all deny their supposed acts while in Dr. Laden's case he/she went public and is making no bones about it. But if I am mistaken and any of these molester scoundrels confess to their crimes then of course they should be fired immediately. If they are kept on I would never send my children to such a yeshiva! Of course if there are a pattern of allegations against a Rebbi it would behoove the hanhala to take action. If they didn't I also wouldn't send my children there. May Hashem assist us all in our lifetime work of tikun hamidos vehanefesh. Haba Letaher Mesayin Oso!
131
Sep 09, 2008 at 09:35 PM Chaim Says:
How about this one......
Rov Avraham Bloomenstiel said...
The opinion of the Tzitz is somewhat ambiguous, and you are correct that he eventually rules that the status of the transsexual is likewise ambiguous (androgynous).
I personally heard R'Waldenburg say it, and confirmed it with 3 of his talmidim, that, b'svora and b'limud, that gender reassignment surgery did actually change halachic gender. However, his ruling le-ma'aseh in the 22nd chelek is intentionally conservative and cautious.
or
The second responsum, which is dated 1971 (I don't have the date for the first one, but the second one refers to it), is in Volume XI, Part 78. It begins with a letter sent to Rabbi Waldenberg by a doctor who read the first responsum and wanted to ask about a case which occurred in the hospital where he worked. The case seems to have been one of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. A child was born mostly female in appearance. Labia and what seemed to a clitoris were present. But there was a single testicle in one of the labia. When tested, the baby was found to be XY. Genetically male. A invasive examination was performed, and there were no male organs inside the baby's body. The doctor's two questions were whether it was permissible operate on the child in order to make it functionally female when it was genetically male, and whether it was permissible, in light of the prohibition of castration, to remove the single testicle.
Rabbi Waldenberg begins by noting that the fact that there were no male organs inside the infant's body is irrelevant. "The external sexual organs of the newborn in question, as you have described, appear as those of a female, and it has no external indications of male organs. Only the special examinations [gene testing] showed that male cells were present. And therefore, in my opinion, even if we were to leave it as it is, it would have the status of a female, since “the external organs which can be seen by the naked eye are the determinant in Jewish law. "
I must also enlighten you to the fact that Rabbi Waldenberg is considered even a higher source than Rabbi M' Feinstein.
The followin was given by Rabbi Alfred Cohen
Rav, Congregation Ohaiv Yisroel of Monsey; NY
Journal of Halacha & Contemporary Society XXXVIII; Fall 1999 - Sukkot 5760
One of the leading poskim in the world today is the Israeli sage, Rav Eliezer Waldenberg, author of Tzitz Eliezer, who is often consulted particularly on medical problems. A doctor was once confronted with a case of a child born with apparent intersex characteristics, and he turned to Rav Waldenberg for guidance. In addition to addressing the specific problem, Rav Waldenberg availed himself of this opportunity to expand upon his view concerning similar situations and how they should be dealt with.
The child in question was born with external organs which seemed to be female; however, there also seemed to be an organ resembling testes. Further complicating the situation was that a chromosomal test of the infant indicated it was a male. After surgery, it was found to have no internal sexual organs. The doctor wrote that it was medically easier to make the child into a girl, but asked two questions: is it permissible to make a child whose genetic identity is male, into a female? Further more, is it forbidden to remove the "testes"?
In his responsum, Rav Waldenberg lays down the principle that in these matters, the determining factor is the appearance of the external organs: the key is the visual perception. Consequently, he rules that since all the external organs of this child are of a girl, it is a girl.41 The only problem is removal of the testes, which is forbidden due to the prohibition of castration. However, in this case he rules, since the child is a girl, one can remove the testes, since that operation is not what would make her sterile. Furthermore, even if a child were an androgynous, it would still be permissible to remove the testes, without violating the prohibition of sterilization - since in any case this child is not capable of having a child. This conclusion is based on the Minchat Chinuch,42 who rules that the prohibition against sterilizing (sirus) cannot apply to a person who cannot have children anyway.43
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Sep 09, 2008 at 11:03 PM Anonymous Says:
There are people dying in Israel and around the world every day, and this is what you focus on?
Shame on you.
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Sep 10, 2008 at 12:28 AM Stern Student Says:
To Anonymous 1:54 am (9/9/08).
Please do not call my thoughts tragic. I place a high value on morality and respect toward human- beings who earn it.
There is nothing wrong with being liberal.
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Sep 10, 2008 at 06:17 AM Oiberchochom Says:
Chaim says "PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE A MEDICAL CONDITION OF TRANSGENDERISM OR AS IT IS REFERED TO IN THE MEDICAL WORLD AS GENDER DYSPHORIA AS HOMOSEXUALITY. IT IS NOT THE SAME AND IS TRETED IN HALACHA AS BEING DIFERENT."
I don't believe for a second that Dr. Laden fits this category, come on, he fathered three children! He's no hermaphrodite!
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Sep 10, 2008 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:
Yeshiva University is not JUST a religious institution, but a secular institution as well. At least half the faculty and most of the staff are not even Jewish and a minority are Orthodox Jews. There are gay faculty members too. There is no dress code for faculty. I am a female faculty member and I wear pants. I am married and do not cover my hair. It is not the university's business to tell a faculty member what they can wear and not wear, what religion they can be, how observant they must be if they do happen to be Jewish.... if the university chose to fight this (and not only would it have no legal leg to stand on because of Dr. Ladin's tenure), it would completely hypocritical. It would have to hire only Orthodox Jewish professors and make sure they follow Jewish law in dress, eating, marriage, custom. If Yeshiva University wants to be considered a good school on par with the top institutions in the country, to compete with Ivys and top Liberal Arts Colleges, it must behave as an institution of higher learning and not as an insular, religiously-motivated place stifling the diversity of ideas.
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Sep 10, 2008 at 01:18 PM Reb Yid Says:
1. I never heard of anyone accepting R. Waldenerg's sort-of psak on gender-re-assignment surgery.
2. Worse than YU ambivalence over this is the response of the quoted students, "oh this is so great." I'll bet if you asked them why it was great they would not have an answer, certainly not a torah-dicke answer. They only say it's great b/c that's the only acceptable answer for young cosmopolitan people to say, similar to "I'm a Democrat," "I'm pro-choice," etc. etc. YU would be much better if they were a bit more picky in admissions.
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Sep 10, 2008 at 05:09 PM Hello Says:
Reb Yid,
there are instances where halacha permits and mandates abortion. what if there were no pro choice politicians? what then?
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Sep 11, 2008 at 04:23 PM BlogsRBad Says:
Again bloggers jump on a media report and vehemently argue with one another without real knowledge of fact - based primarily on media reports. Regardless of whether this is right or wrong halachically (not being an expert, but a person of average, albeit conservative, sensibilites, it just feels wrong), one must conceded there's a fair level of embarrassment to the school, particularly in the way it's reported in the media. Somewhere, there is a YU Alum that would offer to fund a settlement to the individual to get him to walk away. The school loses a good educator in the short run but will be better off in the long run.
To Anon 09-10-2008 - 12:28 AM, "There is nothing wrong with being liberal."
"Nothing?" Here's just one tiny, but timely, example of what's wrong with liberals - an excerpted quote relating to the murderous attack we commerate today, from blowhard liberal Keith Olbermann:
"...9/11 has become…… a brand name. A Republican campaign slogan. Propaganda of the lowest form.
9/11 has become… 9/11, with a trademark logo."
Yes. How awful that we remember the holy martyrs that were slaughtered on that day by cowardly terrorist murderers. Better to blame America, Keith.
But that's a whole other discussion.
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Sep 21, 2008 at 02:10 AM mikey Says:
Keith Oberman himself is "propaganda of the lowest form".
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Sep 21, 2008 at 02:08 AM mikey Says:
YU are gutless cowards. They should fight it all the way to the Supreme Court in the name of the First Amendment - it's not like they don't have the money or couldn't raise it. Queer power increases because places like YU shy away from a fight. The legal intimidation that queers and other sick, irrational groups use is their form of terrorism, and like all terrorists, the more you give in, the more they take...
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Sep 29, 2008 at 04:33 PM Aaron Says:
I'm so glad I'm not one of you ultra-conservatives.
Judaism is love, people.
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Feb 03, 2009 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:
“ As Rav Gifter ZT"L screamed about YU on Chol Hamoed Pesach 5758......THIS IS DESPICABLE!!
YU should close its doors. ”
Please keep your hatred of other Jews to yourself. Thanks