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Postville, IA - OU President: Agriprocessors Is Kosher, But Plant Managers That Do Not Obey Laws, Raises Issues If The Meat They Process Is To Be Trusted

Published on: September 15, 2008 02:22 PM
By: Omaha.com
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Postville, IA - Is it OK to eat meat from a processing plant that mistreats workers, even if the meat has your religion’s official stamp of approval for physical and spiritual cleanliness?

Should a religious organization even give its stamp of approval to food from a plant facing allegations of violating labor laws, including employing teenagers younger than 16 to handle dangerous slaughterhouse equipment?

Those are questions that have been discussed by many American Jews in the wake of a federal immigration raid on the Agriprocessors Inc. kosher meatpacking plant in Postville, Iowa.

Not just for Jews Jews observing their religious dietary laws aren’t the only consumers affected. Many Muslims buy kosher meat and products when halal products (those that comply with Islam’s dietary laws) are unavailable. Vegetarians and vegans often look for the kosher designation.
The debate has reached synagogues, supermarket shelves and kitchens in Omaha, where hundreds of Jews observe kosher, a set of Jewish dietary laws.

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Last week, the ante went up after Iowa Attorney General Tom Miller filed thousands of criminal child labor charges against Agriprocessors’ owner and managers. Then the Orthodox Union threatened to withdraw its certification, and its familiar circled-U seal, from Agriprocessors’ products — a move that would be devastating to the Iowa plant and could make it harder for consumers to find kosher meat. Agriprocessors had been the nation’s largest kosher meatpacker.

“We feel at this point they’ve lost a lot of credibility,” Orthodox Union President Steve Savitsky said Friday in Omaha, where he was visiting a growing Orthodox synagogue, Beth Israel. “We want them to bring in new management, even bring in new equity partners.”

The Agriprocessors controversy might seem like an internal Jewish debate. But it strikes universal chords that are growing louder, said William O. Stephens, a Creighton University professor of philosophy and classical and Near Eastern studies. He also teaches ethics.

It’s like not buying clothes manufactured in a sweat shop, Stephens said, or trying to buy food from farms that pollute less than others.

“That’s how people try to make their dollars speak in terms of ethical judgments,” he said.

Under the moral concept of taint, products created unethically are tainted, regardless of how pure they are physically, Stephens said.

“Spiritually, you want it to be pure meat — it’s safe, it’s wholesome, it’s been killed humanely, and then you can feel good about ingesting it,” he said.

Savitsky traveled to Omaha from Orthodox Union headquarters in New York to visit Beth Israel Synagogue. Beth Israel is a growing congregation in the Orthodox movement, the most traditional branch of Judaism.

The Agriprocessors controversy wasn’t on Savitsky’s official Omaha agenda. But it was an unavoidable topic. Beth Israel Rabbi Jonathon Gross welcomed news of the ultimatum from the Orthodox Union. He said it was consistent with Jewish religious law and with the Orthodox Union position on Agriprocessors all along.

“I am incredibly proud as a rabbi to be a member of the Orthodox Union because I think they handled this perfectly,” Gross said. “They did not act in a frenzy. They said they would take their leads from the authorities. They waited for the authorities, and then they took decisive action.”

Gross said he has had no qualms, so far, buying meat from the plant. But now, Gross said, issues of trust have arisen. If the plant managers can’t be trusted to obey state and federal laws, can they be trusted to process the meat correctly? Beyond that, he said, potential mistreatment of workers is an ethical problem in itself.

“Jewish law is not only relegated to the kitchen,” Gross said. “It also regulates how we conduct ourselves in business. . . . If a company violates these laws and mistreats people, that’s equally if not more egregious” than violating kosher processing laws.

While creating a dilemma for many individual Jews, the issue has also been a controversy between branches of Judaism.

Some leaders reacted quickly after allegations of labor abuse in the wake of a May 12 immigration raid that netted nearly 400 illegal immigrants at Agriprocessors.

A group of Conservative rabbis called for a boycott of products from Agriprocessors, which are sold as Aaron’s Best and Rubashkin’s, among other brands. Another group of Conservative rabbis launched an effort to create an additional ethical certification, heksher tzedek, for kosher food based on standards for wages and worker safety.

Rabbi Mordechai Levin, who heads the Conservative Beth El congregation in Omaha, said the reports of what he called unacceptable worker conditions at the Agriprocessors plant are “disturbing.”

He said by e-mail that Jewish dietary teachings, originating in the Hebrew Bible, “teach reverence for life and humane treatment of animals.”

“Judaism teaches — among other things — about the importance of social justice, the rights and responsibilities of every human being, and the importance of business ethics,” Levin said. “If those reports (of labor violations) are accurate, they are in contradiction with the teachings of Judaism.”

If the reports of labor violations are true, Levin said, he and his members would have to evaluate whether to buy Agriprocessors products.

A local Reform rabbi, Aryeh Azriel, said he has members who carefully observe kosher laws, even though the Reform movement generally does not adhere to kosher dietary restrictions. But he said his main interest in this matter is not the religious debate, but the question of justice.

“The concern really is seeing that the work is done with dignity, not just for the animals, but for the workers, that there is no abuse of the workers in your plant,” Azriel said.

The Iowa Attorney General’s Office on Wednesday filed thousands of misdemeanor child labor charges against the Agriprocessors plant’s owner, Abraham Aaron Rubashkin, and some of its managers.

Miller accused the plant of hiring 32 illegal immigrant children under age 18, including seven who were under 16. The number of charges is so high because Miller filed a charge for each day that a violation was alleged for each worker.

Chaim Abrams, a manager at the Agriprocessors plant, said in a statement that the company “vehemently denies” the Iowa attorney general’s allegations. Abrams said the underage workers — not the company — are to blame for lying about their age.

Agriprocessors also operates a plant near Gordon, Neb. The Nebraska Department of Labor has said state regulators have checked on the Gordon plant and found no indication of problems with labor laws.

Production problems at the Iowa plant since the raid have led to many bare racks in supermarket kosher aisles, including at the Bag ‘N Save at 76th and Dodge Streets, the main place to buy kosher in Omaha. Smaller producers such as Noah’s Ark in Minnesota haven’t been able to pick up the slack, leading to limited choices for consumers. Bag ‘N Save Vice President Leon Shrago said he hopes Agriprocessors can resolve its problems soon.

The Orthodox Union’s Savitsky said Friday that the Postville plant’s meat still qualifies as kosher. But he said the mounting legal troubles have led to concerns about current managers of the family-owned plant’s ability to perform up to standards.

The charges still haven’t been proved, he said. But he said it would be in the Agriprocessors owners’ interests, as well as the Jewish community’s interest, for them to put someone else in charge and let the plant get back to providing kosher meat for the country.



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Read Comments (121)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:36 PM simcha Says:

I'm going the new square way-no meat for me. Only home slaughtered chikens!!!!

2

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:36 PM Oh vey! Says:

Oh vey!

3

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:35 PM Anonymous Says:

what will the ou do if the rubashkin's are acquitted of the charges?
could they fire the new management and take back their equity?
rabbi gross and the ou need to be reminded about the presumptuion of innocence before forcing such a drastic measure on a family business

4

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:32 PM anon Says:

I know that most will say that the meat is kosher. However, think about the situation where the owners are doing other illegal activities. Would you say that the meat is kosher? I think not (I hope). Where do we draw the line? You have to be consistent and righteous.
I strongly feel that RUBASHkin is not kosher. The place there is not in the spirit of Torah.
The 5 town vaad removed their hechsher from gourment glatt because of business practices there (2 yeard ago). They also told us NOT TO SHOP there, even for soda.
Where is the 5 town vaad now?

5

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:38 PM Yonason Says:

Everyone here, I hope, agrees that we would not trust a butcher who is not shomer Shabbos, because we would not trust that he would respect hilchos kashrus sufficiently to trust his meat . . . if, and I repeat if, Agriprocessors has abused workers and taken safety short cuts in the name of the "all mighty dollar" - then is it really only left-wing union-organizing antisemetic jew-hating shtus to question if they might take short cuts on kashrus?

6

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:40 PM AMG Says:

until threre is a court case or an admision of guilt these actions and statements are not called for and they are wrong and a presumstion of innocents should be assumed until proven otherwise beyond reasonable doubt

7

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:42 PM Anonymous Says:

The OU is right. Hechsher Zedek, although not legitement, did have a legitament cause and by ruling that non-ethical practices should not get a hechsher is in a way taking the wind out of hechsher zedeks sails.

Hopefully hechsher zedek will lose its popularity and will be forgotten. The good part of all this is that Conservative jews are for the first time actually looking for a hechsher on packages and they're becoming more aware of kosher practices.

Taking a hechsher off an establishment for issues not directly related to kashrus is no different than the badatz not giving a hechsher to a resturant or wedding with mixed seating.

8

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:43 PM moek Says:

The OU hypocrites are ar it again i wonder if it were an israeli company if they would be jumping to the forefront and condeming halacha is halacha is it kosher or not you dont agree with their alleged unlawful ethics withdraw your hecsher i guess the hecsher is too much of a moneymaker to forefit. Growing up i remeber the raging autopsy issue in israel the holy OU really dragged their feet when it came to condem the israeli goverment.
DOUBLE STANDARD????

9

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:50 PM yossele Says:

OU is wrong (and foolish).

The 9000 "child labor offenses" were from 11 teenagers who had documentation stating that they were 18.

The illegal immigrants who worked there had documentation, SSNs etc. AND IT IS ILLEGAL TO INQUIRE AFTER THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUS.

This was a very smooth assasination from beginning to end. We are kleinkepeldik, but we think we're as clever as the unions or PETA.

Congratulations on hurting one of the BEST in the kosher industry (who even today has one of the best industry standings) and a big baal tzedaka who helped hundreds of yeshivas, camps etc.

If agri goes down, ultimately the OU will pay...

10

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:51 PM ano Says:

OU hypocrisy at its best

why is the OU so concerned about agri and the sensitivity of the animals and of the underage workers

they were not concerned about boruch lanner their employee who spent 27 years molesting boys and girls and was covered up by the OU every step of the way

Where is the OU who gives a hechser on chines products produced by political prisoners in jails under torture

Nice to see the OU ios concerned about the animals not the molesters

way to go OU

11

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:48 PM yoine Says:

i don't think anyone needs to resign from management, because someone throws accusation’s at you, we live in a democracy, where innocents until proven guilty, I don't won’t to trust a hechsher like the ou that is political correct, lets figure it out if anyone will come up with some bogus charges: that the ou committed wrong doings, do you honestly believe that rabbi stavitzky or anyone else for that matter would resign? The answer is no!

12

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:48 PM postville Says:

What about the products made in china, an other nations,

The ou will pull the eksher?

The reform & all the good samaritan jews will stop going to shop in stores with hispanic , indu , israelis *nd others non union ilegas?

R u goung to stop using the cleaning lady ?

R u only having union cleaning ladys in your house?

R u pay insurance for your cleaning lady?

Its the local kosher supermarket only have legal union workers? & only human factory products?

Do u check if you pants are made in the usa or china?

No! Only the orthodox , chasid lubavitcher plant must be 100%

Pure

13

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Since when do yidden care about workers rights? safety? For that matter where would be if we were all ethical? And if we start worrying about these goyesha concepts, do you know what the price of meat would be?

If this stuff is important that it will be dealt with when we get to go before the beis din shel malah.

14

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:

OU is 100% right!

You are allowed to take a hechsher off a place even if the kashrus is good. Look at the Askonim that want to take the hechsher off a wedding hallif it plays goyish music.

Whether or not Rubashkin is right they definitly made one of the biggest chillul hashems in the last 50 years and OU is right for distancing itself from it to show that frum yidden aren't cruel and above the law.

Hechsher Zedek will no longer be able to claim that they're more ethical than the frumme and they will fall apart IY"H.

GO OU!

15

 Sep 15, 2008 at 02:59 PM ano Says:

sorry folks forgot about this

do you know the OU books are not public
there behavior in the hechsher biz is so bad they put other companies out of work by using unfair labor practices

the govt should take a long hard look in the secret books of the OU

in addition the report about the true lanner story was sealed and never released to the public
why doesnt the OU release the full story about the lanner coverup

16

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Why is everyone afraid to learn from Conservative Jews? And now that they have raised a valid issue that many people agree with, everyone wants to see them go away? I don't get it.

17

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabosai:
May I remind you of the three greatest books ever published:
1. Italian War Heros
2. Polish Noble Laurates
3. Jewish Business Ethics

18

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:02 PM Anonymous Says:

The whole Lanner story has be hung out and he went to jail. The house was cleaned at the OU and NCSY continues to do good work. You should be worrying about the perverts in the frum world.

19

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:02 PM Anonymous Says:

SHAME SHAME SHAME ON THE OU
LETS LOOK IN TO ALL INDVIDUAL OF THE OU PERSONAL ASWELL SEE IF THEY ARE ALL SO KOSHER

HOW CAN THEY TAKE SUCH MATTERS IN TO THERE OWN HANDS DONT WE ALL KNOW INNOCENT UNTILL PROVEN GUILTY

20

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:17 PM NY Says:

R u goung to stop using the cleaning lady ?

Yes, I did about 20 years ago rather than break the law.

R u only having union cleaning ladys in your house?

Yes, and I cannot afford to have a legal cleaning lady so I do it myself.

I also do not want a criminal around my children.

Do u check if you pants are made in the usa or china?

Yes, I do not buy clothing, food, furniture or household goods from China.

I am an Orthodox Jew BTW

21

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:16 PM anonymous Says:

moek Says:
The OU hypocrites are ar it again
**********************************
If you blame one, you have to blame all.
Rabbi Weismandl gave a hechsher to a NOODLE company and pulled the hechsher because of Jewish cartoon characters. What did that have to do with Kashrus??

22

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:16 PM yoine Says:

the shchite is done by the best & most trusted shochtim and mashgichim yeraim veshlaimim, you can find. however day to day operation in any business with that size especially, is always in a turmoil and rubashkins plant I am sure is no different than any midsize American company, it’s clear to me that other people & interests, such as unions, competitors, etc. are involved , and for sure non of us trust them!
I trust rubashkins shchite I think it’s the best we have in this country, so please enjoy the meat, especially now when they need our support more than ever, remember if you allow them to fall, anyone of us could be next in line. “Yisbeu anovim veyismochu”

23

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:15 PM Oy Vey OU! Says:

QUESTION FOR OU:
IF the situation at the PLANT was so bad...
How could all this have happened UNDER YOUR NOSES???

Weren't you SUPPOSED to be watching???

WHY did YOU - OU allow these alleged illegal (and now in the New OU Shulchan Orech) un-kosher activities to go on for so long....
Weren't you SUPPOSED to be watching???

Why did it take a gov't investigation and allegation to get you -OU to act?

Weren't you SUPPOSED to be watching???

Since when do we pasken shilos of right or wrong
and kashrus because of allegations and public opinions and PETA ?????

And lastlly,
IF YOU OU WEREN'T WATCHING???
WHY SHOULD WE TRUST YOUR KOSHER CERTIFICATION ?????



24

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:28 PM Anonymous Says:

I think that Rubashkin should take another hechsher like the Star-K just to learn these basterds a lesson!!!

What has a hecher to do with a owner???
Should the O-U hire the F.B.I. to check the owners all day long?? if the owner is a goy I think they should check out if he is cheating or doing immoral stuff??? will that not raise any questions about the kashrus???

25

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:25 PM tsvika55 Says:

OU is trying to get in bed with the unions at the expence of Rubashkins.....

26

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:32 PM Meier Says:

Many years Rav Breuer zt"l said "Glatt Kosher also means Glatt Yosher". If you are not honest in business your trustworthiness in Kashrus is suspect.

27

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:38 PM come on Says:

leave the guy alone, he loves people and there for would not fight back the way every one fights him.

does any body see the good that he does?
agri supports 250 jewish family's with very good pay checks i must say.
he give beravach when giving charity.

agri does not abuse there workers if you why would you believe that they do? do you speak to any of the people that work there or has worked there?

why are people making things up?
why do people hate this man?
what is going on what is the agenda of these people?
how many of these people are getting payed by PETA?
how many self hating jew work for PETA? (i my self know of 8 YES they it KOSHER but they love the money or are just sick in the head).

my brothers do not be quick to judge you're fellow jew.

he is a good man and keeps all the laws jewish and of the land we live in.

28

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:37 PM anonymous Says:

Shikey, well said.

29

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:36 PM Shikey Says:

don't say who's right and who's wrong until you ACTUALLY KNOW SOLID FACTS, which we will all know at the end of the court case. until then it is every yids DUTY to be both don l'kaf z'chus, and to assume that the Rubashkins are B'chezkas kashrus. my feelings about them are meaningless until backed by solid proof, especially that we all know there are people who are intentionally trying to destroy their business.

30

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:36 PM Charlie Hall Says:

1. Italian War Heros

Try Giuseppe Garibaldi.

2. Polish Noble Laurates

Try Marie Skłodowska–Curie.

3. Jewish Business Ethics

Try Aaron Feuerstein.

And lets try not to post motzi shem ra against ourselves or against others. It is, after all, Elul.

31

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:35 PM deepthinker Says:

THIS IS A LOT OF BALONEY.

LET'S NOT ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE MANIPULATED BY THE OVERWHELMINGLY ANTI-ORTHODOX MEDIA, WHO WANT TO DESTROY THE LARGEST KOSHER MEAT PROCESSOR IN THE WORLD.

RUBASHKIN IS A DECENT MAN; A BAAL CHESED.

LET'S NOT CUT AND RUN LIKE A BUNCH OF YELLOW COWARDS AS SOON AS HIS ENEMIES LOB A FEW GRENADES IN HIS DIRECTION.

WHAT ARE WE? A BUNCH OF WEAK-0MINDED WIMPS?

32

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:35 PM Meier Says:

Many years ago Rav Breuer zt"l said "Glatt Kosher alsom means Glatt Yosher". If you are not honest in business your trustworthiness in Kashrus is suspect.

33

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:34 PM Avraham Abba Says:

QUESTION: Why is it okay to put OU on candies that will acclimate children to ingesting and absorbing large amounts of sucrose, diglycerides,dyes, chemicals, prservatives, sugars, fats, artificial flavors, sodium bicarbonate, artificial flavors, carnuba wax, glazes, corn syrup, monoglycerides, salt ????

ANSWER: There is no current political turmoil over candy, and children are not going to complain so it gives jobs to mashgichim and keeps more rabbis busy checking for tarfus. Besides it might only cause dumb kids to become overactive and trigger behavior disorders and hyperactivity.
Besides, it has nothing to do with molesting which must not be mentioned and it has nothing to do with AGRI.

34

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:47 PM anon Says:

I have a new found disgust for the OU. Whay hypocrits. All these posts have a very valid point - the OU certifies plants that use child slave labor in the thrid world - that means 1/2 the products they certify should be treife. They certify products from thousands of companies - without checking at all in to how they treat employees. This has nothing to do with any opinions they may or may not have abour how Agri treats workers and everything to do with pressure from PETA, Unions (who they actually admit to be in talks with) and G-d know who else. And if they feel so strongly why did it take them a year to do something about it.

35

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:44 PM re Steve Savitsky Says:

Steve Savitsky says "we feel like we have lost our credibility". These are all allegations, Would they close down the OU or fire Steve Savitsky if they find that there allegations are unfounded?

36

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:50 PM Yakov Shloma Says:

The PETA guys are anti semite,,,I wish they come into williamsburg we will make a special Chaptsam . special for PETA and knock the daylight out of theese chickens

37

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:49 PM Conservative or Orthodox? Says:

In an earlier part, the article states "Friday in Omaha, where he was visiting a growing Orthodox synagogue, Beth Israel. “We want them to bring in new management, even bring in new equity partners.”

I think he is talking to Orthodox people.

Than the article states "Rabbi Mordechai Levin, who heads the Conservative Beth El congregation in Omaha"

Who was he preaching or speaking to??????????

38

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:07 PM Anonymous Says:

This WILL backfire on OU one of these days they will be scrutinized and we'll see how clean they are and we'll start hearing about their business
practices.
They are asking for it - they will get it.
I am finished with these hypocrites - I will try to boycott them as much as possible I am disgusted
at this back stabbing and them getting into bed with the unions.
I am sure I am not alone in this and they will soon feel the painful impact of their treachery.

39

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:08 PM Torah im Derech Eretz Says:

Deena d'Malchusa Deena. If one disobeys one set of laws,he is not trusted to obey other laws. If one does wrong acts in order to do good with it,it is all bad. Kind deeds with stolen money is still thievery,when it happens.Using other people's identity is fraud and hurts the one whose ID was used.

40

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:04 PM Orthodox Union and China (and thirld world countries) Says:

I am quite sure that the Orthodox union only gives their kosher certificate if the Chinese Companies display the highest form of labor ethics.

41

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:02 PM anon Says:

Actually, I have no problem with an organization that spends millions on making sure animals are well fed and well treated --- once all the human beings in the world are taken care of.

42

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:00 PM anon Says:

What a chutxpa for him to suggest that a company change its management. how would he like Rubashkin or any other company telling him how poorly the OOU is run and suggesting management changes. Who does he think he is a business consultant. Oh, and they should taka give away their company too. Please people - what did they do already. How many of you are reading these blogs on your employers time and that is stealing - a sin.

43

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:59 PM Conservative or Orthodox? Says:

I later googles Beth E.l Synagogue to see what it is it is a self acclaimed conservative congregation, who features a cantor names Beth Schlossberg. I have a feeling that Beth isn't a man (though could have once been a man - never know). I can't believe that the president of the OU can consider them a legitimate congregation. Maybe the OU should bring in equity partners or change management.

As I am readying myself to hit the submit button, a thought came to mind. Maybe he went to be mekarev them and teach them hilchos beis hakineses.

Hashem Yerachem!

44

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:59 PM Lock & Load Says:

All I want to know is
Where is the BEEF
Lock & Load

45

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Just BTW, its almost kapporos time, the peta LOVE kapporos, they came last year with cameras and video cameras... i think we should swing them around this year!!! (nah, it wouldn't work the ou would give the shochet the boot, because "mah yoimru hagoyim...")

46

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:10 PM anonymous Says:

The OU lied! By dragging this out and not being tough and bowing to political issues, they are weak and do not have credibility. The heads of the OU are just interested in your money and it is not Kosher to exploit people like this. You people have been fooled for many years. Let the fake concert ban rabbis be a lesson to you as well as this that these things are political and nobody is really in charge. This is just a farce and you a re the pawns in this silly game.

47

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:53 PM The truth, and nothing but the truth. Says:

Repeated often enough, every lie becomes accepted as truth.

Rubashkins are Yosher. They are kosher. They have a Union problem, which the ou has bought into.

NEVER have the Rubashkins behaved in a way that is not YOSHER.

NEVER have they broken any laws.

They are the victims of criminal elements in the Hispanic community who lied to get jobs.

That's all.

Several dozen kids faked IDs and got jobs.

They never mistreated workers.

They never mistreated animals.

They never payed below minimum wage, they always paid above.

I spoke to Genack of the OU. He told me that the OU is doing this because they are AFRAID of the UNIONS who will make trouble for them.

He reassured me that Rubashkins are the best people, never did anything wrong, but are sloppy and dont have good PR.

So, stop the blood libels, and state it for what it is.

INTIMIDATION.

Intimidation by PETA and the UNIONS who are very well connected. And now OU is running scared, too.

This has nothing to do with safety,treatment of workers, compliance with laws.

This is a witch-hunt. Plain and simple.

Let's call a spade a spade. Once and for all!

48

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Charlie Hall, right, but how many more can you name?

49

 Sep 15, 2008 at 03:51 PM yid Says:

to Meier
but what hapened now? why did the ou let the children work there till now, they lost the trust!!!!

50

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:13 PM smart Says:

I don't know why agriprocessors cant take off the ou,& put on the ok,? everone knows theyr kosher ,even the ou only has a problem with theyr physical and spiritual cleanliness but in actull kosher their is no problem ! so let the ok take over & everyone whe wants will eat arons meat ,those who really can't sleep at night because they beleave all thies horable rumars won't eat rubashkin meat ,agri will be happy that ou doesnt give a hecsher and the ou will be thrilled !!!!problem solved !!!

51

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:19 PM Elias Friedman Says:

Would you want someone who has been charged (not tried yet, but charged) with child molestation babysitting your kids?

Obviously not.

That person should find other things to do until his name is cleared.

I think the OU acted completely properly. They waited until there was an indictment leveled- that means that a *grand jury* found that the charges had sufficient substance to go to trial. They're not just baseless rumors, in other words.

The OU told them to hire new managers- they didn't tell them to sell the business. It makes good sense for the people whose trustworthiness has been questioned to step back from the day to day operations of the plant.

Goyim have asked me in the past, "How do you know the food is kosher just because of that little mark? How do you know whether that the person supervising didn't just take the money and not show up?"

My reply has been that it's a matter of trust. Certain organizations have shown that they can be trusted and others... not so much so.

This applies here- if a person can't be trusted to not look the other way from falsified immigration and age documents just so they can make an extra buck, how can they be trusted to follow the complicated (and expensive!) rules of shechita? How do you know they won't try to cut corners when the mashgiach isn't looking? After all, they may have broken federal Laws to save money, why not kashrut laws too?

So long as the trustworthiness of the current management/ownership is under question, they need to take a step back from day to day operations so that the trust we have in the kashrut won't be undermined. It's the right thing for them, for the OU and for the entire community.

52

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:17 PM The truth, and nothing but the truth. Says:

Torah im derech eretz says: Kind deeds with stolen money is still thievery,when it happens.

Look at the lies and the libel going on here!

What stolen money?

What are you talking about!!

Innocent until proven guilty is DINA DMALCHUSA

Spreading slander against innocents is DINA DMALCHUSA

Blackmail and intimidation is DINA DMALCHUSA

Stop spouting DINA DMALCHUSA!

YOU WHO LIE AND MAKE UP TALES ARE VIOLATING DINA DMALCHUSA and Lashon HArah, rechilus and Motze Shem Ra.

Lets have the truth:

Rubashkin is an innocent family who the UNION threatened to bring down. With your help they may.

They NEVER mistreated animals, workers.

They NEVER underpaid

They NEVER used false identities

THEY ARE VICTIMS OF TEENAGE LIARS! WHO LIED AND USE FAKE ID TO GET A JOB!

Lets have the truth, please!

53

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:17 PM Anonymous Says:

I think the OU is being perfectly reasonable. They didn't rush to judgment. They only acted after indictments were handed down.
I'm seeing an ever-receding threshold from the complainers: first they said we have to wait for indictments. Now they say we have to wait for convictions. Once there are convictions they'll say we have to wait for ... I'm not sure, but they'll think of something.

54

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:19 PM yossele Says:

Who says that Agri was oiver on dina demalchusa???

They would have been breaking the law if they asked for further proof of age or citizenship!!!

55

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:30 PM The truth, and nothing but the truth. Says:

To Elias Friedman, now youre comparing them to molesters?

Shame on you, you ou hack!

HOW LOW CAN YOU GO?

Elias Friedman, This IS OUT AND OUT LIBEL.

If I were Rubashkins, you and your OU hack friends, would already have gotten a letter from my lawyer.

You are insinuating that Rubashkin cannot be trusted with Kashruth, because they hired some kids who were not yet 18? Kids who LIED and FALSIFIED documents to get the job!

Shame on you, you OU hack.

You know how false that is!

How low can you go!

How low can you go!

If there are any Rubashkins reading this, I say sue for this slander. I know you guys are nice, but I think it is time to fight and protect your name. Dont allow these hacks to get away with this.



56

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:54 PM Dini Says:

Deena d'Malchusa Deena. If one disobeys one set of laws,he is not trusted to obey other laws. sO HOW ABOUT TAKING OFF ALL THE OU HASGACHAS IN CHINA?

57

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:58 PM deepthinker Says:

I THINK WE'RE FORGETING THAT A JEW HAS A CHEZKAS KASHRUTH.

A RENEGADE PROSECUTOR CAN INDICT ANYONE HE PLEASES, IF HE IS SO INCLINED, AND GRAND JURIES ARE NOTORIOUS FOR SIMPLY RUBBER-STAMPING THE PROSECUTOR'S CHARGES.

THE O-U SHOULD HAVE WAITED UNTIL THE RUBASHKINS HAD THEIR DAY IN COURT.

THEY ARE COWARDS, AND THEY SEEM WILLING TO THROW RUBASHKIN "UNDER THE BUS" TO PROTECT THEIR FARFLUNG KASHRUTH EMPIRE.

58

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:59 PM Yaakov Says:

I truly feel that what the OU did last week, threatening Agriprocessors to remove their hechsher if they don’t get new management - was wrong. It was more than wrong – it was hepech haTorah. It was not the way a yid and a Jewish organization treats another Jew and Jewish company in their time of need. Only hours after two very respectable and charitable Yidin – yoray shomoyim to the fullest degree – were charged - put under a terrible threat and under even more immense pressure – and yet they threw them under the bus. I was completely surprised. There may have been some business mistakes, there may haven been some things that went on in the plant, there may not have been, but we all know that they have done their best and need our support. We all know that the Union wants them to join and is 95% behind this whole mess, with the media behind them. And now the OU. How dare the OU join the Union instead of fellow Yidin! They completely crossed their boundary. The OU deals with the Kashrus. This is what they answered when they were asked “we leave these issues to the USDA”. And that was a good answer. Their job is to deal with the Kosher aspects, which is of the highest standard in Agri.

They may say that Agri has made a chilul Hashem. I say the OU has made a much bigger chilul Hashem. This has shown the world the opposite of Achdus Yisroel, that we are behind the Union instead of fellow Yidin and that the OU believes the charges to be true. They have also probably caused GREAT financial burden to the Rubashkins from this statement. How could they put another business in more risk to close down and lose so much money? Halacha goes to such lengths to protects the finances of another Yid. Besides all the other Yidin who rely on this business! Their actions were completely irresponsible!

And how do they do this when they have not been found guilty?? ‘Innocent until proven guilty’ - not until they’ve been charged. And so I don’t care if the charge is a State charge or a Federal charge – they are innocent until proven otherwise according to Torah and according to the American justice system. (Especially in light of what was said by the American Jewish Congress that this affidavit is ‘thin’.)

Besides this battle of the Union, I look at the battle of PETA and Hechsher Tzedek as a clear war on Kashrus. However, the OU seems to be ‘scared of their own skin’. From when PETA began a few years ago, to Hechsher Tzedek, the OU has never seen this for what this is, and always has come out with ‘politically correct’ statements instead of defending Kashrus, and their fellow frum Yidin – the Rubashkins.

Therefore, I think the OU should at once retract from last week’s statement and stop joining the Union and join their fellow brothers instead. Stop giving politically correct answers and fight for Kashrus.

59

 Sep 15, 2008 at 04:57 PM Barack Obama Says:

When Barack Obama spoke in Iowa about the plant, he clearly stated that he got his facts from the Meat Packers Union.

At this point of the game it is clear who is behind all these allegations, the raid and PETA.

I say to Rubashkin cross the border!

60

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:24 PM Could Not Have Said It Better Says:

YAAKOV - it could not have been said better!

The following is what YAAKOV wrote. I ask every fairminded person, to please take a second and read this:

I truly feel that what the OU did last week, threatening Agriprocessors to remove their hechsher if they don’t get new management - was wrong. It was more than wrong – it was hepech haTorah. It was not the way a yid and a Jewish organization treats another Jew and Jewish company in their time of need. Only hours after two very respectable and charitable Yidin – yoray shomoyim to the fullest degree – were charged - put under a terrible threat and under even more immense pressure – and yet they threw them under the bus. I was completely surprised. There may have been some business mistakes, there may haven been some things that went on in the plant, there may not have been, but we all know that they have done their best and need our support. We all know that the Union wants them to join and is 95% behind this whole mess, with the media behind them. And now the OU. How dare the OU join the Union instead of fellow Yidin! They completely crossed their boundary. The OU deals with the Kashrus. This is what they answered when they were asked “we leave these issues to the USDA”. And that was a good answer. Their job is to deal with the Kosher aspects, which is of the highest standard in Agri.

They may say that Agri has made a chilul Hashem. I say the OU has made a much bigger chilul Hashem. This has shown the world the opposite of Achdus Yisroel, that we are behind the Union instead of fellow Yidin and that the OU believes the charges to be true. They have also probably caused GREAT financial burden to the Rubashkins from this statement. How could they put another business in more risk to close down and lose so much money? Halacha goes to such lengths to protects the finances of another Yid. Besides all the other Yidin who rely on this business! Their actions were completely irresponsible!

And how do they do this when they have not been found guilty?? ‘Innocent until proven guilty’ - not until they’ve been charged. And so I don’t care if the charge is a State charge or a Federal charge – they are innocent until proven otherwise according to Torah and according to the American justice system. (Especially in light of what was said by the American Jewish Congress that this affidavit is ‘thin’.)

Besides this battle of the Union, I look at the battle of PETA and Hechsher Tzedek as a clear war on Kashrus. However, the OU seems to be ‘scared of their own skin’. From when PETA began a few years ago, to Hechsher Tzedek, the OU has never seen this for what this is, and always has come out with ‘politically correct’ statements instead of defending Kashrus, and their fellow frum Yidin – the Rubashkins.

Therefore, I think the OU should at once retract from last week’s statement and stop joining the Union and join their fellow brothers instead. Stop giving politically correct answers and fight for Kashrus.

09-15-2008 - 4:59 PM

61

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:14 PM formely frum Says:

Anonymous Says:
comments - arrow Since when do yidden care about workers rights? safety? For that matter where would be if we were all ethical? And if we start worrying about these goyesha concepts, do you know what the price of meat would be?

______________________________________________

If there are more like you out there, it is a very scary thought. I hope you are joking or a lone nut case.

I think you need to go back to yeshiva and study Torah for the first time it is full of ethical behavior towards human, Jews and goyim and animals.

again the Peta people who broke the story WHERE FRUM SHOMMER SHABBOS Jews, so stop the crap about antisemitism it is not going to fly because you say it over and over.

ALSO, if one read the whole indictment Rubaskin also did not pay then for all hours they work, in other words he shorted their wages knowingly and that is stealing.

Okay wait if you like but once found guilty will you follow rashi who says if one cheats in business that person is not trusted in kashras. Does the frum community not follow rashi? I thought he was considered one of the great one.

PS Rubashkin has been convicted of other crimes like bank fraud search the web. In addition just because he gave a lot of charity does not mean his is a honest businessman. For example, many Mafia godfathers where very charitable, does that mean there where good people who the government should no go after, according to many the answer is no.

62

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:38 PM this is old news Says:

the ou has a history of doing these type of things. in 2004 when peta first attacked agri the ou played a role in the problem as nat leiwn wrote in an article:

To add insult to injury, when rabbis and certifying authorities sought quickly to issue a unified public statement defending the kashrut of the process followed in the Rubashkin plant, the OU representatives delayed issuance of the statement because they wanted it to include a declaration that removal of the trachea would no longer be practiced.

Whatever one might think of the impact of seeing a trachea or some other portion of an animal's intestines removed soon after shechita, no Orthodox rabbi claimed that this invalidated the shechita.

Nonetheless, the clarifying unified statement was substantially delayed and press accounts condemning Rubashkin were permitted to swell while this debate with the OU rabbis was going on. They urged issuance of a statement that would implicitly condemn the practice that was being followed at the AgriProcessors plant even though it did not impugn the validity of the shechita and some respected rabbinical opinion supported removal of the trachea as halachically desirable to facilitate bleeding and to reduce the absorption of blood into the meat.

AgriProcessors has also been the victim - albeit less intentionally - of Orthodox rabbis who are unwilling or unable to abide by Avtalyon's wise caution: 'Chachamim, hizaharu bedivreichem' (Scholars, be cautious with your words!).

63

 Sep 15, 2008 at 06:00 PM my uncle was a shochet. Says:

Look at the videos of Rubashkin shechita. Then compare this to shechita videos from years ago.

Rubashkin has changed the definition of shechita and THAT is not kosher.

64

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:58 PM ano Says:

i would like to see the OU come out with a statement that they will no longer give hechshers in china

then ill know they are serious.

65

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:50 PM Anonymous Says:

It is about time we did away with this entire hasgacha business. Everyone should decide for themselves what to eat or not what to eat. If you are very machmeer, you will eat vegetables and maybe the fish you catch yourself.

66

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:48 PM Meatloaf Says:

"Yaakov Says:
I truly feel that what the OU did last week, threatening Agriprocessors to remove their hechsher if they don’t get new management - was wrong ... It was not the way a yid and a Jewish organization treats another Jew and Jewish company in their time of need ... I was completely surprised. There may have been some business mistakes, there may haven been some things that went on in the plant, ... but we all know that they have done their best..."

If anything the OU waited too long before it acted. These were not simply "business mistakes" this was mis-use of the trust of the Jewish People. What went on at Agriprocessors's was a complete failure of derech eretz. What went on at this plant was criminal including the selling of false identification papers to minors IN THE HUMAN RESOURCES DEPARTMENT OF THE COMPANY!
This is a small, closely held company where decisions were made by the owner and two of sons together. They ran the company and knew how much each department could produce and who the key workers and supervisors were. Two of those supervisors have pleaded guilty already and others are facing charges. In fact they are facing 9,311 charges! And this is just the beginning. Wait, there will be more.
These people stole, and what they stole is the trudt of the Jewish community. They have made a farce out kashrus and held the Jewish community up to ridicule. Do you really think this is what the kehilla stands for? That it is ok to ignore the law of the land (as long as you don't get caught)? That bribery, extortion, sexual predation, physical mistreatment, shorted paychecks, no over time pay (and this just the beginning)-- all of this OK!!!???
And all of this is because of a) unions; b) anti-Semites; c) jealeous competitors; d) PETA. Give it a break. You want ot know the real problem: look in the mirror. Look at a picture of the owners. You want an address? Write to Agriprocessors, West Street, Postville, IA.
Stop blaming other people and look at your own neshoma because the Rubashkin's couldn't have done this alone - they needed all of us to go along with them to create this chillul HaShem and we are all guilty.

67

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:46 PM Anonymous Says:

BS"D

The Rubashkin who was convicted of bank fraud is Moshe, who is not involved in the Agri operations.

68

 Sep 15, 2008 at 05:42 PM anonymous Says:

It is time to ban the OU - Stop patronizing the companies which they authorize. It is time to stand up for yourselves and take a stance against kosher abuse.

69

 Sep 15, 2008 at 06:14 PM anonymous Says:

Anonymous Says:
BS"D

The Rubashkin who was convicted of bank fraud is Moshe, who is not involved in the Agri operations.
09-15-2008 - 5:46 PM
***************************Moshe Rubashkin, as head of the Crown Heights Kehilla, is in charge of the hashgacha that comes to Agri under the Shor Habor label.

All shor habor shechita was moved to Nebraska. Is there something that they know that we don't? Like they get all the meat that they need while everyone else is missing? Like there is no scrutiny like at iowa? Like if Agri shuts down for any period of time, they still get meat?

70

 Sep 15, 2008 at 06:25 PM Ph.D. Says:

good for You Charlie Hall!!! But they forgot the fourth book:
Great Muslim Nobel Prize Winners

71

 Sep 15, 2008 at 06:39 PM anon Says:

How dare the ou that oversaw Shalit poultry that provided trefus as kosher without the drastic
changes it is asking from rubashkin.

Essentially Rabbi Savitsky is saying rubashkin must sell to someone else or else not get ou hechsher. What does ownership of this plant have anything to do with kashrus? Is it kosher or is it not kosher?

I think that the ou is playing a game to be on the good side with the union as they can also be put out of business and the are playing nice to be good with the hechsher tzedek people and in the meantime they will be throwing (first Rubashkin and then) all of us and kosher companies under the bus.

72

 Sep 15, 2008 at 06:34 PM ignorant Says:

moshe rubashkin has nothing to do with shor habor or any hashgacha for that matter

73

 Sep 15, 2008 at 07:24 PM Anonymous Says:

\i am not sure i want to eat there meat anymore...... not untill this all gets cleared up........... please please try to put an end to this all.................maybe if all these companies went under the union laws meat would be priced so regular people can buy it..... i went to buy meat for yom tov...... at the prices chicken will be what my family will eat...... maybe one small roast ...... and stuff cabbage.... but as for more..........who can afford it......... not all of us have food stamps.... we work hard and pay but the prices are nuttsssssss...........

74

 Sep 15, 2008 at 07:53 PM Anonymous Says:

why are they not going to the OK or the other's Who needs the The OU

75

 Sep 15, 2008 at 08:24 PM To Meatloaf Says:

Meatloaf - you seem to 'know' alot.

1-Why do you keep repeating unfounded allegations?


2-Who do you work for?

76

 Sep 15, 2008 at 08:15 PM chezkas kashrus Says:

Many people feel that once Rubashkin is charged with 9,311 crimes plus much more, they no longer have any Chezkas Kashrus and can't be trusted for anything in Kashrus.

77

 Sep 15, 2008 at 10:19 PM Anon Says:

Everyone - please take a deep breath and think very very hard about whether in the history of the justice system of the USA anyone, ever was convicted of 900 plus crimes. It may be 9000. The number dosent mean anything. An indictment with a handful of counts vould be far worse. Can we have a criminal eSQ. COMMENT?

78

 Sep 15, 2008 at 11:28 PM formely frum Says:

I am not by any means a rubashkin apologist, I think the ou did the right thing and should have done it a long time ago. And I think one should not eat rubashkin for ethical reasons.

However, the 9000+ indictment is just a number. What they did is take every minor and for every day they worked counted every day as a separate crime. So if there were 20 minors for example and lets say they worked 60 days that counts as is 1,200 crimes. and there are other thing like if the worked in a dangerous capacity that would be another crime per day per underage. Therefore one can see how it can add up very fast to 9000.

hey 9000 sounds a lot better than 20 counts if you are a prosecutor.

79

 Sep 15, 2008 at 11:19 PM Anonymous Says:

At best the Rubashkins are terrible managers; at worst they're just bad people who never took legitimate suggestions from the OU seriously in order to save their business. Don't kid yourself, any businessman worth his salt asks for Green Cards and legitimate social security numbers. Why didn't Rubashkin do their due diligence? You mean a 13-year-old Hispanic boy can pull the wool over the eyes of a savvy manager? Give me a break! The OU did the right thing, especially when you have one of the greatest chilul Hashem situations in the US.

80

 Sep 15, 2008 at 11:13 PM Meatloaf Says:

"To Meatloaf Says:
Meatloaf - you seem to 'know' alot."

Yes ... I do. Not everything about this case, but a lot.

"1-Why do you keep repeating unfounded allegations?"

Because they are not unfounded.


"2-Who do you work for? "

Torah, the Jewish People, and emes.

81

 Sep 15, 2008 at 11:44 PM Anon Says:

It is prosecutorial misconduct if you ask me.

82

 Sep 16, 2008 at 12:29 AM Milhouse Says:

You people who are drawing such comparisons to chilul shabbos are nuts! How can you compare someone who breaks a law of the State of Iowa to a mechalel Shabbos? And yet I bet you would rather trust the latter than the former! Just because a person is willing to break the regulations of some state agency doesn't mean they'd break Hashem's laws. I don't know whether the Rubashkins broke any Iowa laws, but more importantly I don't care, and the OU has no business caring. They give hashgacha to mechalelei shabbos also! So even if all the charges are true, how can this be worse?

You can scream "dina demalchusa dina" till you're blue in the face, but you cannot seriously expect anyone to believe that that means the entire Iowa code of laws is incorporated by reference into the Shulchan Aruch! You don't even believe that yourself. I challenge ANYONE to prove that there is a positive obligation on a person to obey the law. Until then, shut your mouth and have some shame, because what you're doing, defaming a yid and damaging his reputation and parnasah, is 100 times worse than anything he's accused of.

83

 Sep 16, 2008 at 12:42 AM formely frum Says:

To Milhouse

we did not ruin his reputation or take away his parnashu his action did.

BTW he is also excused of cheating them out of their justly wages by not paying them for all the hours worked. Is that okay with you?

You think the Torah only worries about what you do or do not do to hashem the Torah spends a great deal of time on ethics and how to treat animals. I see you only follow 1/2 the Torah. so you are no better or worse that someone who does not keep shabbos.

84

 Sep 16, 2008 at 12:36 AM Milhouse Says:

Anyone who knows the Rubashkins knows that as a family they are the nicest most erlich people there are. I will put up their yosher against anyone you name. They are big baalei chessed, old Mrs Rubashkin has to be one of the biggest tzidkonios in the world, and how dare you people speak like this about them? Meatloaf, Charlie Hall, you smug hypocrites, I would hate to be in your place when you come lema'alah and have to face the music for all the hatred you have poured out against these people. All the people they have helped will come to testify against you. All the malachim they created with their mitzvos will stand up against you. And the agmas nefesh you have caused them, the tears they have shed and the money they have lost, will weigh against whatever puny store of mitzvos you might have accumulated. And you have the gall to talk about erlichkeit and yosher! FEH!

85

 Sep 16, 2008 at 04:44 AM Anonymous Says:

The facts and only the facts:

Being that is hard for people to keep track of all the complaints that bloggers have against Rubashkin I will outline them here to make it easier to hold Cheshbon.

1) The Rubashkins knowingly violated the law by hiring illegal immigrants.
2) The Rubashkins abused the illegal immigrants that they never should have hired by underpaying them less then union wage.
3) The Rubashkins abused the illegal workes that they never should have hired by not allowing them to form a union to seek better pay and beneifits.
4) The Rubashkins overcharged for their meat and got rich on the back of the Jewish working poor.
5) The Rubashkin's undercut other merchants and put kosher butchers out of business.
6) The Rubashkins cannot be trusted and therefore there should be an outside agency supervising them.
7) The OU, the outside agency that has been supervising Rubashkin because we don't trust them, should remove their hashocha because there have been allegations of impropriety.
8) The allegations of the illegal immigrants that never should have been hired, and who are motivated to lie to stay in this country as states evidence, must be taken very seriously.
9) The allegations by the dozens, shochtim, mashgichim, and USDA workers that are on th grounds at all times does not have ne'emanus because they are nogayah bidavr.
10) Rubashkin caused a tremendous chillul hashem by allowing underage workers to work at the plant and being charged with 9000+ counts verified by the records and pay check stubs found in the Agri office.
11) Rubashkin underpayed and stole from the illegal workers they never should have hired and the government by paying all the their underage workers in cash off the books.
12) Rubashkin caused a tremendous chillul Hashem because something like this has never happened before except for the December 12, 2006 ICE raid on Swift and Beef and Pork which netted 1300 illegals.
and so on and so on...

Torah says things like havay don es kol odom l'kaf zchus, and al'tadin es chevercha od she'tagiya limkomo.
Secondly until someone comes and is mayid before a bais din that he saw Rubashkin do an avairah, there is nothign wrong with Rubashkin's credibility. If even if someone were to be mayid, we we're never eally trusting Rubashkin any way, that's why they have supervision. That said the OU is a bunch of weaklings for bowing to conservative pressure for hechsher tzedek, on mere hearsay, against what Torah says. being that the OU is clearly not "talmidei chahcomim she kosho kibarzel, I am indeed qustioning their ne'emanus. And of course all the machers in the OU only use documented aliens as cleaning ladies, pay them on the book with a check and withholding or request a 1099 from them.

86

 Sep 16, 2008 at 04:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Does anyone here actually know the Halachos of dina dmalchusa dina and if and how they apply. Or are people throwing out terms that they heard people say before.....

Lifi aniyus dati....they don't apply to these laws at all.

V'tarich iyun if they bichlal apply in the U.S ayin the Ran in Nedarim daf 28a.

87

 Sep 16, 2008 at 06:16 AM anonymous Says:

I think that Milhouse went over the line.

You can be a Rubashkin apologist, but name calling is not to be tolerated. We are all allowed to our opinions, but degrading other postera to this blog (as he does not want us to do with the Rubashkins) should be dis-allowed.

I personally thing that Milhouse should be banned because of his baseless attack attutude towardsother Jews.

88

 Sep 16, 2008 at 01:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Nice to see the OU is concerned about the animals not the molesters >>>>>>>>>

Molestors are animals. So the OU is doing their job!

The OU is not in the molestor business. The OU job is about hashgocha. Would you want your plumber to be policing our streets? Lets not mix up rolls of people and what their job description is.

Parents do parenting.....
Rabeim teach.
OU gives hashgocha and makes sure ingredients are kosher amongst other things that involve a product being KOSHER throughout.

89

 Sep 16, 2008 at 08:14 AM true facts Says:

your hate/agenda against rubashkin is so blinding that oyu contradicted yourself.

in 4) you rubashkin overcharged for meat and then in 5) you say rubashkin undercut other butchers. Which one is it, you can't have it both ways. And regarding the rest of your fact, according to whom are these facts? the accussers? last time I checked there was no trial, jury or verdict.

90

 Sep 16, 2008 at 08:51 AM yoine Says:

I have to sleep, sorry that I missed some of you,
I don't trust any one with anonymous if you can't put your name on the top you must be a competitor or the union or worse from peta we have a famous story about the priest the (tzavua) who will have rachmunes on the merishkes, not to step over them, but not on the human being that is about to die.
For sure you'r a rushe gumer i wonder if your yiches is form yiden or from moisrim and malshinim.
As far as the OU is concerned, for sure they are inspecting each place they give hechshairim! Don’t they? What do they say? they didn't inspect the rubashkins so they couldn’t see any problem in that plant, or perhaps or any of the above is working for them and doing inspections for they’re hechsharim, i don't know why rubashkin needs their hechsher to begin with, when in fact they have the best hashgoche already. Only the blind will not see for what it is.
I fully support the rubashkins, we are all going to buy only rubashkins from now on. Any one attacking you is attacking all of us. We are all in it together!!!
Thank you

91

 Sep 16, 2008 at 08:50 AM Kashrus Concerns at Rubashkin Says:

All comments here, who are defending Rubashkin fall in to the following 2 general categories:

1) Rubashkin does a lot of Chessed and therefore he couldn't possibly do any other Avera - Right? ? ?

Actually that is WRONG.

A person can do Mitzvos A N D Averos and there is no contradiction.

Because every person has BOTH a Yetzer Tov and a Yetzer Hara and besides a person can be a "Mumer Ledovor ECHAD".

In fact most Frum Yidden are generally Frum, yet we all say plenty of "Al Chet"! So this "reasoning" is outright non-sense!

2) Rubashkin violated only secular Law but it has no impact on Kashrus, Right? ? ?

Actually that is dead wrong too.

Besides all the recent allegations of breaking the Law, yet, long before that, there have been many who had accused Rubashkin of many highly questionable Kashrus Practices including the removal of the Washington Hights, Broyers, KAJ Hechsher.

And also allegations of a LOT of Kashrus problems at Rubashkins by Reb Yudel Shain, a known Whistle Blower who had previously been the first one to WARN the entire world about the SHEVACH MEAT problems - while everyone on this website and on other websites, had accused Reb Yudel Shain of just "Loshin Hara" but by now, everyone already realised that they must Kashered their Pots!

Chazal say that:
"Hamechalel Shem Shomayim Baseser", then in the end he will be exposed PUBLICLY. The real issue for us Jews, is KASHRUS at Rubashkin but the current public allegations here, are not so OPEN and Clear (not about Kashrus * YET *).

So Hashem sent the Goyim to make their version of "CRIME" to show us, what Chilul Hashem, is really happening, behind the scenes, at Rubashkins.

Vehamevin Yovin:
We should all be SMART and understand that:

"Where there is SMOKE, there is likely FIRE, too".

KAJ took of their Hechsher from Rubashkin for Kashrus reasons and not because of Secular Law violations and many others too, had stopped using Rubashkins Meat, long ago, because of Kashrus concerns.

For us, frum yidden, it's a very real KASHRUS CONCERN.

But to all "defenders of Rubashkin", I say:

Go Right ahead and "close your eyes" and keep on eating it, just as you did with SHEVACH MEAT (the Infamous Monsey Meat Scandal), until you are told to "Kasher Your Pots".

92

 Sep 16, 2008 at 08:49 AM Numbers Game Says:

9,000 sounds great
but it aint


The 9000+ indictment is just a number.

What they did is take every minor and for every day they worked counted every day as a separate crime.

So if there were 20 minors for example and lets say they worked 60 days that counts as is 1,200 crimes, and there are other thing like if the worked near some bleach, that would be another crime per day per underage.

Therefore one can see how it can add up very fast to 9000.

Hey 9000 sounds a lot better than 20 counts if you are a prosecutor, whether you are a fellow jew or work for the gov't.

One thing is for sure: 9,000 it aint.

93

 Sep 16, 2008 at 09:16 AM The real facts and only the real facts Says:

Being that it is difficult for people to keep track of all the lies that some bloggers, UNION hacks, ORTHODOX UNION hacks and PETA hacks, have against Rubashkin I will outline them here to make it easier to hold Cheshbon.

)The Rubashkins NEVER knowingly violated the law by hiring illegal immigrants, they are victims of IDENTITY FRAUD by illegals.

2) The Rubashkins NEVER abused the illegal immigrants that have hired by underpaying them. They ALWAYS paid ABOVE minimum wage.

3)The Rubashkins NEVER abused the illegal workers

4) The Rubashkins NEVER overcharged for their meat and they NEVER got rich on the back of the Jewish working poor. In fact, they are one of most GENEROUS COMPANIES in the world, literally giving FREE MEAT to many people for weddings, Bar Mitzvahs and Tzedaka fundraisers. Also, any poor person is welcomed into their NY restaurant for a FREE KOSHER MEAL every day.

5) The Rubashkin's NEVER undercut other merchants and Rubashkins NEVER put kosher butchers out of business, they always maintained fair pricing.

6) The Rubashkins ARE VERY TRUSTWORTHY PEOPLE, BIG YIREI SHOMOYIM, and went out of their way to conform to the HIGHEST STANDARDS both of KASHRUTH and FOOOD SAFETY.

7) Rabbi Genack of the OU, the outside agency that has been supervising Rubashkin has ALWAYS MAINTAINED THAT KASHRUTH HAS NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE, and is now being heavily pressured and threatened by the the UNIONS so they are backing off to protect themselves.

8) The allegations of the illegal immigrants who are motivated to lie to stay in this country as states evidence, must be taken as such ALLEGATIONS by desperate people seeking to stay in the country.

9) The statements by the dozens, shochtim, mashgichim, and USDA workers that are on the grounds WHO ASCERTAIN THAT RUBASHKIN HAS ALWAYS ADHERED TO THE HIGHEST KOSHER AND USFDA standards ARE PROOF POSITIVE is excellent evidence because they are ON THE GROUND and SEE what is going ON, instead of reading it in the NY TIMES.

10) Rubashkin has NOT ALLOWED underage workers to work at the plant. These workers pretended to be older by bringing in fake license and ID. The "9,000 counts" are actually 2 counts for 20 teenagers x the days that they were worker. By the way, ONE count is being exposed to bleach.
This is an example of Media hype and misrepresentation.

11) Rubashkin NEVER underpayed and OR stole from the illegal workers.

12) Rubashkin have always tried to the right thing. They are the victims of a witch hunt perpertrated by the UNIONS and PETA. RUBASHINS ARE VICTIMS of a fellow Jew who was fired. RUBASHKINS ARE VICTIMS of the lying immigrants trying to cover their back. Their reputation has been besmirched. These are amazing, good and decent people. DONT BLAME THE VICTIMS!
That is how pogroms began.



94

 Sep 16, 2008 at 09:30 AM The real facts and only the real facts Says:

Hey, bloggers, listen to this guy:

So Hashem sent the Goyim to make their version of "CRIME" to show us, what Chilul Hashem, is really happening, behind the scenes, at Rubashkins.

Really?

Hashem told you this?

What about when goyim made up stories about BLACK DEATH or BLOOD LIBELS?.


And listen to this:
"Where there is SMOKE, there is likely FIRE, too".

There was alot of SMOKE - by the blood libels.

Wait, wait. Don't go that far back. What about all these kids falsely convicted of rape last year?

'Smoke' could also mean someone trying to take down a company.

Rubashkin SHOULD BE TRUSTED, not because they give a LOT of tzedaka, which they do. They should be trusted because they are HUGE YIREI SHOMAYIM, and they should be trusted because GENACK said: THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A QUESTION OF THEIR KASHRUTH!

For us, frum yidden, THERE IS NO KASHRUS CONCERN.

To the RUBASHKIN BASHERS I SAY:
Go Right ahead and "close your eyes" and keep on repeating it, until you are told to that you have brought down a kosher legitimate company and then it will be too late.

And you will have to answer to the BOREH OLAM for rechilus and motze shem ra and loshon horo.

95

 Sep 16, 2008 at 09:28 AM Anonymous Says:

To 4:44
Rubashkin was never high priced, acctually it was the lowest in the market.

Rubashkins treat there worker's better then most employer's, just ask anybody that work's there. (I did)

They did NOT violate any law, they are not allowed to check on the employee if they are illegal according the law

Shochtem and mashgichem and U.S.D.A. are there 14/7 and we could trust them more then the o-u that sit in there nice office's claiming they know whats going on in Iowa

The mashgichem are not paid by Rubashkin, they get paid thru Rabbi Weismandel.

96

 Sep 16, 2008 at 09:27 AM anonymous Says:

yoine Says:
I have to sleep, sorry that I missed some of you,
I don't trust any one with anonymous if you can't put your name on the top you must be a competitor or the union or worse from peta
*****************************************
So - how anonymous are you? 'yoine' is the name of my nephew AND my great nephew. Are you one of those? Or are you hiding under their name?

We are all anonymous on this blog. Milhouse, Meatloaf, Lock and Loan are all just names that might very well be the same peson (with a Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde personality). So signing or not signing s name is no indicator of anything.

I read your comments a few times to understand what you are saying. I enjoy your sarcasm. I had to read it a few times to really understand your true intentions.

Like the line that was a give-a-way - "For sure you'r a rushe gumer i wonder if your yiches is form yiden or from moisrim and malshinim."

No one talks like that and means it, especially during Ellul, especially with all of the primae-facie evidence in abundance.

Thank you for the good laugh.

97

 Sep 16, 2008 at 10:42 AM in hashem we trust Says:

THE FACT THE SAVITSKY MADE THIS STATEMENT IN A CONSERVATIVE TEMPLE SPEAKS FOR HIM SELF

98

 Sep 16, 2008 at 10:33 AM formely frum Says:

again for all the people who cannot read, the people who blew the lid off rubashkin where SHOMER SHOBOS JEWS. Do we need to mention that again so cut the bull about goyim, antisemitism.


I think i can say for most if not all who bash Rubashkin that if it is found out that all the stories about rubaskin were lies we are willing to offer a public apology and admit our error and learn from it.

However, it seems if rubahkin is found to be guilty of the crimes charged and whatever future crimes he will be charged with,- it would not change your mind at all and still give silly excuses and still buys his meat like nothing ever happened. So do not play that silly game and say we think he is innocent and that is why he still eat his meat. Since, i think if found guilty you still would not approve of us who will boycott his products.

maybe I am wrong but I doubt it, since there is not one comment from those who think that rubashkin is innocent ever say- if proven guilty I will stop buying his products, not one.

So cut the bull, you do not care what he did since it was goyim and I am getting the meat at a good price. why not just cut to the chase and admit it.

99

 Sep 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM Milhouse Says:

"formerly frum", if they really did short the workers' wages, let's see some evidence for that. So far, for all the talk, they haven't been charged with this. And by evidence I mean real evidence, not some fired worker claiming now that he worked hours that weren't on his time card, or that he was promised a higher rate than he got; I don't see any reason to take such a person's word over that of the Rubashkins.


Anon of 6:16 AM, you really have a chutzpah, coming in as "Anonymous" and calling for a named commenter to be banned! Who are you? At least Meatloaf and Charlie Hall have the grace to sign their comments with a consistent name, so we can judge each comment in the context of their whole body of work; you could be anyone at all. And if I were to be banned as you suggest, why wouldn't I keep commenting as "Anonymous", just as you do? What do you think anyone would gain from that? I think VIN should ban all anonymous comments, and make everyone use a consistent name, so people will have accumulated reputations to think of.

Anon of 9:27 AM, when someone uses a consistent name, they build up a reputation. It doesn't have to be their legal name, but it's something they stand behind. Who are you, though? You could be anyone, and you could have written 15 comments on the same thread.

"Kashrus Concerns at Rubashkin":
1. A person *could* do both mitzvos and aveiros; but when someone has an excellent reputation for mitzvos and chessed, we should not suspect him of aveiros without good evidence. So far nobody has given any reason why we should not trust Rubashkin's kashrus, and the family's tzedaka and chessed give us a powerful reason *not* to suspect them.

2. Now you are simply lying; KAJ removed their hechsher for commercial reasons, and NOT for anything to do with kashrus.

3. Yudel Shain is a well-known crank, a hate-filled blackmailer who throws around wild allegations at everybody who doesn't pay him. After years of this, he scored one hit; big deal. If you accuse everybody of wrongdoing, once in a while you'll be right, just as if you predict that every stock will go under, once in a while you'll be right.

4. And by the way, I did not eat anything from Shevach, because they did not (claim to) sell Rubashkin. It's only those who distrusted Rubashkin and went to look for greener fields that were nichshal.

100

 Sep 16, 2008 at 11:22 AM Vote McCain!! Says:

What in heaven's name is this guy opening his mouth for? What happened to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY of which there is a similar concept in Jewish Law too? He is taking the Rubashkins and thowing them under the bus as if they are guilty as sin - WITHOUT A TRIAL OR ADMISSSION ON THEIR PART (as far as we know).

I find these public words by Savitsky extremely in poor taste.

101

 Sep 16, 2008 at 11:37 AM anonymous Says:

The real facts and only the real facts Says:
Being that it is difficult for people to keep track of all the lies that some bloggers, UNION hacks, ORTHODOX UNION hacks and PETA hacks, have against Rubashkin I will outline them here to make it easier to hold Cheshbon.

SKIP A FEW NUMBERS TO THIS GEM

"5) The Rubashkin's NEVER undercut other merchants and Rubashkins NEVER put kosher butchers out of business, they always maintained fair pricing."

Try saying that to Long Island Glatt, the last butcher in Washington Heights. Ditto for Best Value in Philadelphia. Also for Feig's in Phoenix. All were undercut by goyish who paid less for meat than Rubashkin charged the Jewish owners.

I gave you 3 examples. What do you have to show for it?

102

 Sep 16, 2008 at 11:49 AM anonymous Says:

Milhouse Says:
......................

Anon of 6:16 AM, you really have a chutzpah, coming in as "Anonymous" and calling for a named commenter to be banned!
**********************************
You were called to be banned because of your sinas Yisroel, hate for a fellow Jew. Your calling people 'liars' does not fit in with any derech ben Torah, just because you disagree with 'facts'.

let's look at one of your 'facts'

"2. Now you are simply lying; KAJ removed their hechsher for commercial reasons, and NOT for anything to do with kashrus."

They removed their hashgacha because they had no unrestricted access in the plant AND because the ability to pasken Shaylos was taken away from them. That, to 99.99% of the world is a tremendous Kashrus problem.

Look at this scenario - They see chickens coming into the plant that Weismandl said was not to be used for Supreme production (they were in an overturned truck). They are to be used for KAJ production and for OU production. KAJ is not allowed access to the bodkim AND they are not allowed to pasken shaylos on those chickens.


To you, I guess that would be 'commercial'??

103

 Sep 16, 2008 at 12:05 PM formely frum Says:

To Milhouse:

I agree, innocent until proven guilty, and maybe given him the benefit of innocence because of the good things he does (however many people who do good things can do bad things in other areas, very few people are bad, evil in everything they do)

All I would like to see, and I think others who feel the same, is people like you and others say,

if found guilty of shorting the workers wages
supplying false documents to the workers doing the second cut when nobody is looking and not doing it when watched like when the rebbis came and whatever else, I will stop eating his meat simply because it is not right and we Jews do not condone such behavior.

(if found guilty of unknowingly hiring illegals I myself will not make an issue of it, I am a fair guy)

Why is it that nobody can say that.

I have friends some yiddin frum, some not, and some goyim who will not buy certain brands because they try to hide behind their sub-contractors, and do not have stringent control to avoid abuse of workers. They do that even if it costs them more money.

Why can't the frum community have the the same ethics, it seems to be common sense, right ethical, and in line within Torah teaching. And if not directly then put a chumra on oneself or gezara. This gezara it not as far feched as gebroaed is (maztho in water)or the many other ones that come through to pipeline it seems on a daily basis

So, I would like to see some brave souls say, I THINK RUBASKIN IS INNOCENT, HOWEVER IF G-D FORBID HE IS GUILTY, I WILL STOP EATING HE PRODUCT OR A ROV SAY IF GUILTY DO NOT EAT HIS MEAT.

That is all I ask


To say his is innocent I know that or guilty I know that, is pure speculation since we do not know what the evidence really is until the government states its case. And some times the government is on target and the yid did committee those crime as painful as it might be to accept that

I repeat

So, I would like to see some brave souls say, I THINK RUBASKIN IS INNOCENT, HOWEVER IF G-D FORBID HE IS GUILTY, I WILL STOP EATING HE PRODUCT OR A ROV SAY IF GUILTY DO NOT EAT HIS MEAT.

104

 Sep 16, 2008 at 12:14 PM formely frum Says:

A few years ago they were interviewing the ceo of Levi's Strauss to makers of jeans.

They asked him why he pulled out of some countries where they were manufacturing jeans to a country that was know to have higher costs and wages.

He said we have certain criteria in our contracts that workers need to be paid a living wage, no minors, and the working condition must be safe. We found out in certain countries there were a total lack of control to keep up those standers so we pulled out our operations. And would do the same again.

The interviewer said what about the investors who want to keep cost down.

he said we at Levi's Strauss have certain standers ans ethical standers that we will not compromise just to make a few dollars more or to keep the investors happy. If investors do not agree with our moral values do not invest in Levi's Strauss.

Just a thought for those who do not care at all about the workres

105

 Sep 16, 2008 at 12:31 PM The REAL facts Says:

come on Says::
leave the guy alone, he loves people and there for would not fight back the way every one fights him.

***If rubashkin is capable of doing all the shinanegans then he is capable of fighting back . He cant fight back because he was caught with his pants down***
===========================================================

does any body see the good that he does?
agri supports 250 jewish family's with very good pay checks i must say.
he give beravach when giving charity.

*** All with ill gained money. All with Stolen money which he still must pay back to the workers and the shochtim***
================================================================

agri does not abuse there workers if you why would you believe that they do? do you speak to any of the people that work there or has worked there?

***Yes , many were interviewed and had horrible things to say . Feds are still interviewing many and it does NOT look very good for the rubashkins***
==============================================================

why are people making things up?

*** nothing is made up . Its all documented!! its all emes lameto***
======================================================

why do people hate this man?

*** If Your boss treated you this way you would hate him too***

====================================================

what is going on what is the agenda of these people?

***The only agenda right now is to close down a very dishonest buisiness and buisiness man for fraud, abuse and abusing the kosher industry***
====================================================
how many of these people are getting payed by PETA?

***DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER! if you cant take the heat in the kitchen then leave.!
========================================================


how many self hating jew work for PETA? (i my self know of 8 YES they it KOSHER but they love the money or are just sick in the head).


***PETA may be a crazy ORG. But this time they caught the Rubashkins, red handed. You guys have no defence, so you blame the Peta people . Blame yourselves for a change. . Maybe if peple see that you are sincere and looking to change , then maybe you can salvage the company from crumbling . But i wont count on change .***


========================================================


my brothers do not be quick to judge you're fellow jew.

*** When Glatt kosher is in danger we can NOT stand by. We want the REAL GLATT KOSHER back, not RUBASHKIN KOSHER!***

================================================================


he is a good man and keeps all the laws jewish and of the land we live in.

*****He Keeps all the laws of the RUBASHKIN BIBLE . Not Toras Moshe M`seinai*
09-15-2008 - 3:38 PM

106

 Sep 16, 2008 at 01:04 PM formely frum Says:

for those who keep on mentioning peta this peta that. They target everybody, go to their web site they have problem with KFC a treif place, and many movies stars Jews and not.

Also, (while I may be formelyfrum I do know my stuff and did learn in yeshiva till i was was 24)

The gemora says "do not look at the person who is asking the question, look at the question." I do not remember exactly where but if I remember i will post it.

So it seems the tanuiam, the Talmud who you base most of your religion believes on, would not be saying Peta this Peta that, no they would not. They would answer the accusation by looking at the evidence and either agree with Peta in this case, and try to correct the problem (that there was abuse) or give a concise rebuttal why Peta is mistaken or wrong in this case.

If you learned the Talmud, it does fit their style, how they handles themselves and how they came to their conclusion on halache. They always gave logical reasons how they came to that conclusion

107

 Sep 16, 2008 at 01:02 PM This is not proof Says:

To the anonymous person that wrote I gave you 3 examples. What do you have to show for it?

YOU DID NOT GIVE 3 EXAMPLES. YOU GAVE 3 ALLEGATIONS, MADE UP BY YOU.

Where is YOUR PROOF?

108

 Sep 16, 2008 at 01:22 PM Plain Plain Plain Says:

THIS SCANDAL is simple. Do the MATH:

A disgruntled WORKER
+ UNION attempt at takeover
+ a PETA attempt to stop kosher meat
__________________________________________
= Slander and lies and the shutting down of fine company.

Recently, a brand-new Wal-Mart opened up here. After several weeks, the UNION tried to get in.

Wal mart had just spent over a million building their store, bringing water and electricity to the area (it was in a remote area).

A few weeks after opening, the UNION came in and got everyone to UNIONIZE. The NEXT DAY, the very next day, Wal-mart shut down its store. Hundreds of people lost their job. Just like that.

The next Wal mart ain't unionizing so fast.

My point here? If the UNIONS want to take you down, they will take you down. They are connected to the HIGHEST LEVELS of government and the MEDIA.

The ONLY ONE who can fight the UNIONS is a HUGE WORLD WIDE company like Walmart, one of the RICHEST family in the US.

Anyone short of that type of power will be bullied and destroyed by the UNION. And that's what happened here.

Dont underestimate the power of the UNIONS and their hunchos in the Democratic party and in the media.

That's basically the entire story in a nutshell.

Obviously, there are some violations, but nothing outstanding at all, nothing that does not occur in any other meat processing plant of that size.

For anyone who is fairminded, and has no bias either way, this is PLAIN as daylight.

109

 Sep 16, 2008 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:

What a stupid comment from the OU
"OU President: Agriprocessors Is Kosher, But Plant Managers That Do Not Obey Laws, Raises Issues If The Meat They Process Is To Be Trusted"
Isn't that the reason why the OU mashgichim are there to make sure that the products are kosher. so in essence he's saying that his own mashgichim are not to be trusted.

110

 Sep 16, 2008 at 02:28 PM anonymous Says:

Plain Plain Plain Says:
THIS SCANDAL is simple. Do the MATH:

A disgruntled WORKER
+ UNION attempt at takeover
+ a PETA attempt to stop kosher meat
__________________________________________
= Slander and lies and the shutting down of fine company.
****************************************
Rubashkin did it to himself. No one helped him.

Actually, you are helping him. You convinced him that he was right and the rest of the civilized world was wrong. Everyone had one agenda - to get this Jew in Iowa and show hima lesson.

You succeded. Rubashkin bought that line completely. And he forced all of us to pay for it.

111

 Sep 16, 2008 at 02:20 PM Moshe Says:

I would like to stress, Is the "OU" watching all their products which they certify to see if all have constant supervision,their verifications reports should be open to the public,I'm sure they WOULDN"T AGREE. Why the double standard? this is pure greed and corruption, they are destroying a jewish company,this has been a witch hunt pushed by the reforms to destroy kosher meat in the communities and with a company that produces them with so many workers and to have kosher meat which is needed in the world.THEY CATER TO THE REFORM AND THE CONSERVETIVES WHO DONT WANT TO EAT KOSHER MEAT
SHAME ON YOU

112

 Sep 16, 2008 at 02:18 PM anonymous Says:

This is not proof Says:
To the anonymous person that wrote I gave you 3 examples. What do you have to show for it?
YOU DID NOT GIVE 3 EXAMPLES. YOU GAVE 3 ALLEGATIONS, MADE UP BY YOU.
Where is YOUR PROOF?
09-16-2008 - 1:12 PM
**********************************
I saw the names of the cities, the names of the stores. That was good enough proof.

I know Shmuel Frydman from Long Island Glatt in Washington Heights. We have no butcher store under KAJ in the Heights because of Rubashkin.

You have your proof. Tell me a good story.

113

 Sep 16, 2008 at 02:34 PM Yehuda Says:

Pita had no business sneaking in a worker to spy on the Rubashkin plant. Pita should be prosecuted for illegally entering a business with ill intentions. The Pita worker represented himself as a job seeker looking for work. They gave him a job. He acted in bad faith by spying on the company

114

 Sep 16, 2008 at 02:42 PM Meatloaf Says:

"does any body see the good that he does?"

I once had an employee who left the company I owned and tried to steal my customers using proprietary information from the firm. We took him to court and won. In his remarks to this former employee the judge said that the actions of this man spoke so loud, he couldn't hear what the man was saying in his defense.

The Rubashkins may have done great tzedakah, but their actions at Agri speak so loud we can't hear what you're saying about what wonderful menschen they are.

115

 Sep 16, 2008 at 03:06 PM Meatloaf Says:

"Milhouse Says:
"formerly frum", if they really did short the workers' wages, let's see some evidence for that."

Sorry Milhouse, the evidence has been turned over to the Wage and Hourly Division of the Department of Labor. I'm afraid you'll have to wait.

You seem to think there is a secret vendetta against the Rubashkins or someone is trying to put them out of business. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Everything that has befallen Agriprocessors is because of the actions of - Agriprocessors. No one else is to blame: not the unions, not PETA, not anti-Semites, not jealeous competitors. It wasn't necessary and didn't have to happen. Many, MANY people spoke to the Rubashkin's and told them to make changes before it was too late. Whether it was because of pride or hubris, or simply because they felt no one cared, they didn't listen. They have created a giant chillul HaShem and they are a bushah which continues to be front page news in major newspapers across the country. It is all so sad.

116

 Sep 16, 2008 at 03:17 PM Kashrus Concerns at Rubashkin Says:

In addition, remember that even the OU (who are Mekil in Non-Cholov-Yisroel and in Pas Palter), even their (relatively lower) standard of Kashrus had agreed (finally) that they WILL remove their Hechsher from Rubashkin, if things remain as is, (if management is not replaced) at Rubashkin.

That should be a KAL V'CHOMER, for all Yidden who have a higher standard of Kashrus than just "OU". Yidden who refuse to eat Pas Palter and non-Cholov Yisreol, All Achas Kama Vekama, that they should be concrened NOW, with Rubashkins Kashrus NOW.

117

 Sep 16, 2008 at 05:44 PM Meatloaf Says:

Bottom line: it is now almost four months since the raid and production at AGri is at best 40% of pre-raid levels. They can't find workers (after having gone through more then 500 applicants who wouldn't put up with the treatment there), clients have left, and people are finding alternatives to their products either because product isn't available or because they don't trust the kashrus.
Agri has lost the confidence of the kosher consumer. It would be in the best interest of the kehilla were the Rubashkin's to sell the plant (while it still has any value) so that a responsible employer familiar with running a plant of this size, could come in with as little disruption to meat supply as possible. Then perhaps this entire mess will off our television screens and the front pages of our newspapers.

118

 Sep 16, 2008 at 06:27 PM formely frum Says:

no one has taken the bait

So, I would like to see some brave souls say, I THINK RUBASKIN IS INNOCENT, HOWEVER IF G-D FORBID HE IS GUILTY, I WILL STOP EATING His PRODUCT OR A ROV SAY IF GUILTY DO NOT EAT HIS MEAT.

So the problem is not guilt or innocence,
You simply do not care if he cheated stole abused workers.
shame on you

119

 Sep 16, 2008 at 07:31 PM Matzahlocal101 Says:

true facts Says:
"your hate/agenda against rubashkin is so blinding that oyu contradicted yourself.

in 4) you rubashkin overcharged for meat and then in 5) you say rubashkin undercut other butchers. Which one is it, you can't have it both ways. And regarding the rest of your fact, according to whom are these facts? the accussers? last time I checked there was no trial, jury or verdict."
--------
I posted the list at of Rubashkin's sins at 4:44. i was on another computer so I didn't chap it was posted as anonymous. The clearly contradictional list was a sarcastic way of portraying the extreme anti Rubashkin bias and the OU's hyposrisy. I thought it was extremely clear that the entire list is contradictory and put forth by Rubashkin haters, not people with a legitimate beef, pardon the expression. :) drawing / You are t09-16-2008 - 8:14 AM

120

 Sep 16, 2008 at 10:05 PM Rubashkin Bible Says:

The REAL facts Says:
come on Says::
leave the guy alone, he loves people and there for would not fight back the way every one fights him.

***If rubashkin is capable of doing all the shinanegans then he is capable of fighting back . He cant fight back because he was caught with his pants down***
===========================================================

does any body see the good that he does?
agri supports 250 jewish family's with very good pay checks i must say.
he give beravach when giving charity.

*** All with ill gained money. All with Stolen money which he still must pay back to the workers and the shochtim***
================================================================

agri does not abuse there workers if you why would you believe that they do? do you speak to any of the people that work there or has worked there?

***Yes , many were interviewed and had horrible things to say . Feds are still interviewing many and it does NOT look very good for the rubashkins***
==============================================================

why are people making things up?

*** nothing is made up . Its all documented!! its all emes lameto***
======================================================

why do people hate this man?

*** If Your boss treated you this way you would hate him too***

====================================================

what is going on what is the agenda of these people?

***The only agenda right now is to close down a very dishonest buisiness and buisiness man for fraud, abuse and abusing the kosher industry***
====================================================
how many of these people are getting payed by PETA?

***DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER! if you cant take the heat in the kitchen then leave.!
========================================================


how many self hating jew work for PETA? (i my self know of 8 YES they it KOSHER but they love the money or are just sick in the head).


***PETA may be a crazy ORG. But this time they caught the Rubashkins, red handed. You guys have no defence, so you blame the Peta people . Blame yourselves for a change. . Maybe if peple see that you are sincere and looking to change , then maybe you can salvage the company from crumbling . But i wont count on change .***


========================================================


my brothers do not be quick to judge you're fellow jew.

*** When Glatt kosher is in danger we can NOT stand by. We want the REAL GLATT KOSHER back, not RUBASHKIN KOSHER!***

================================================================


he is a good man and keeps all the laws jewish and of the land we live in.

*****He Keeps all the laws of the RUBASHKIN BIBLE . Not Toras Moshe M`seinai****

121

 Nov 13, 2008 at 09:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Wow this has gotten way out of hand what a shanda whoa

122

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