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Baltimore, MD - Silence of The Rabbonim |
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What, do we now live in the former Soviet Union? Is this Argentina all over again when people were deemed missing?
The fact that Rabbi Twerski, a wonderful man and champion of the dispossessed, lives in fear, screams volumes about Judaism today.
It is a scream that is louder than the sound of the Shofar. The behavior of our community is treif.
In fact, if we heard there was a bug in a leaf of lettuce, or a maggot in a piece of meat, all heck would break loose in the Jewish community. But, the intimidation of a man, a holy man, well it just isn’t as important.
I am asking that Baltimore area rabbis who have the guts, that they should from their bimas openly declare this action, this immature silent treatment as a shanda, one that cannot be tolerated by a faith community. Our protests should be as loud as the calls from the Shofar.
Rabbi Ben Zion Twerski was wronged
Total74
Read Comments (74) — Post Yours »
1
Sep 21, 2008 at 04:29 PM Policeman Says:
Maybe it is Rabbi Twerski who is wrong. He should have had the courage to stand up to the thugs. If a man of his reputation in the community can't do this, then all is lost.
He is more concerned with future shidduchim for his own family than for the lives and safety of thousands of children? What a selfish coward. And what does it say for the frum community, when you can blackmail someone by threatening future shidduchim for that person's children?
2
Sep 21, 2008 at 04:35 PM Chareidi Leumi Says:
Don't judge rav twersky until you're in his place!
And why only baltimore?????
3
Sep 21, 2008 at 04:50 PM Anonymous Says:
Do you honestly believe it had anything to do with shidduchim for his family? It had all to do with physical threats and harrassement, no one has to live with fear for the sake of the community.
4
Sep 21, 2008 at 04:55 PM Anonymous Says:
This silence affects all communties and is not specific to child abuse. Whether it is tznius, gambling,fraternazation of married couples, drnkeness at kiddushim etc., Rabbonim have an inherent fear of losing thier position in the community and do not speak out.
There are a few courageous voices but they are few and far between.
5
Sep 21, 2008 at 04:53 PM askin Says:
phil jacobs and the jewish times has an issur from horav heinemann shlita rav of agudas yosroel. no other comments is appropriate and vos iz neias should not publish his comments
6
Sep 21, 2008 at 05:56 PM Anonymous Says:
maybe there is a reason the gedolim are quiet, and you the lowly author of this article have a chutzpah to criticize Daas Torah.
7
Sep 21, 2008 at 05:56 PM Meier Says:
Not only was Rabbi Twersky wronged, we were all wronged. What happened to Rabbi Twersky is a disgrace. The fact that no Rabbonim spoke out against it is also a disgrace.
8
Sep 21, 2008 at 05:37 PM are you nuts? Says:
are you serious about Rabbi Heinemann. He is part of the problem my good man.
9
Sep 21, 2008 at 05:26 PM Anonymous Says:
Dov made a political football out of an extremely delicate issue, and it is no wonder the therefore that R' BZT would have no part of it.
10
Sep 21, 2008 at 05:22 PM Anonymous Says:
better yet, there is no money or koved they can get out of this. So what do you think??
11
Sep 21, 2008 at 05:19 PM Anonymous Says:
It's all about cowardness. Nobody is going to stick his neck out and destroy themselves or their family. That's just human nature. It worked against Nuchem Rosenberg and eventually it's going to affect Dov Hikind. Like it or not, fear and terror have been very effective in silencing people and has also changed policy among governments for years.
12
Sep 21, 2008 at 05:07 PM eli Says:
shame on VIN for posting an article from phil jacobs who the rabbanim in baltimore put an issur on that paper from reading it he was motzie shem ra on chashuver rabbanim and his comments should be taken down ASAP
secondly from inside sources rabbi twerski did not agree with the approach and the way dov hikind was dealing with the issue and decided to go his own way ..
13
Sep 21, 2008 at 04:58 PM Anonymous Says:
this problem would be much easier solved if the "Awareness Center" out-to-lunch activists weren't discrediting their cause.
14
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:07 PM Baltimore Says:
If you learnt any gemore, you would've NOT publish this in your paper; til koire mbein einaichu!
Have you gotten rid of all problems in Baltimore to come preach to us in NY?
15
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:23 PM anon Says:
i agree unfortunately rabbi hienemann is part of the problem
there are so many instances of molesters being covered up for in baltimore and other places that if the rabbanim want to shoot the messanger by assuring and threatening they lose all credibility. thats why jacobs and UOJ and all the blogs are successful because the rabbanim have failed in there jobs
16
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:21 PM SG Says:
Although I don't live in Baltimore (nor does BZ Twerski)iknow Phil Jacobs for over 30 years and he is a rue mench. I know Rabbi Heinemann as well and BZ Twerski for as many years.
None of these men should be attacked. They are all true Torah menchen!!!
We have contemporarty and community issues that we are finding difficult to handle. Let's find solutions and stop bashing those fighting our battles.
BTW I have never replied to a VIN posting, but as I mentioned. I personally know all of thes people and you need to refrain from inappropriate comments
17
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:08 PM Reb Moshe Says:
The Rabbanim are quite because Hikinds approch to this major problem is not the Torahdik approch. Wake up. Hikinds radio show last week just proves how off course he is. Tznius has to be dealt with "B'Zina" not on the radio. Have you forgotten that Hikind is up for re-election in November. Such problems should never be brought up in public the way Hikind did.
18
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:53 PM dood Says:
If you want to know where the threats to R Twerski came from, just look at where his kids and grand kids go to school and you'll have it all spelled out for you.
19
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:44 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
I am not sure who is part of the problem. Nor do I completely disagree with those who believe that my backtracking was wrong. I continue to support Dov Hikind in this venture, and I will provide whatever assistance I can without being targeted as the one in charge. Dov speaks like a politician, and this coupled with his passion for such an important issue sounds frantic. But I have not heard anyone with direct experience hearing the voluminous stories of so many years of hushed assaults, the stigma, the denial, and the revictimization of the victims challenge the approach. It is true, that I have an opinion about how to use the media for this subject, but I remain squarely in support that something really serious needs to be done. The status quo is intolerable.
At the end of the day, we have blogged, read articles, spoken to people, attended meetings, and perhaps even cried together with suffering victims. What have we accomplished in bringing about a new way to approach the problem? I do not minimize the baby steps we have taken. But we need some boldness among our leaders to face the spiritual and emotional murder that is occurring on their watch and take responsibility to stop it.
I am aware of letters, policies, and even teshuvos from gedolim and poskim. If these are not applied and implemented, there is nothing beyond someone getting authorship credit with no discernable benefit. How can we protect our children? Any ideas? Please share them.
20
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:34 PM shlomo radomska Says:
Phil has an "agenda." His BJT coverage was good, to a point but went overboard.
There is more to the BZT story than is publicaly known - wanted out of Hikind's political approach but used a weak ecuse of "threats". He just wanted out.
The key to ending this cover-up is to "name names" and back it up with credible people.
21
Sep 21, 2008 at 06:32 PM Reb Yaakov Says:
If Hikind really meant L'shem Shomayim he could have accomplished the samething quitely without the radio. He could have called a meeting of the Menahalim of all Yeshivos to figure out what to do, and then tell them he would go after any Rebbi or staff member. Which would be just fine and accomplish the samething. BUT to go on the radio and disscuss such issues in PUBLIC is unheard of, and is not Al Pe Torah.
Oh I forgot, he has an election coming up. Maybe just maybe he has ulterior motives in mind. Maybe he thinks that the simple minded people hearing his radio program will belive he is really concerned for the well being of the children in Yeshivos.
The fact is that once Rabbi Twerski got involved and realized what Hikind was really up to, he pulled out as fast as he could. But rather saying the real reason why he pulled out, he blamed it on some "thugs" that never said a word to him.
This is not an opinion. I did my homework. This is the real truth behind what happened.
22
Sep 21, 2008 at 07:21 PM moshe Says:
can you guys please explain why would you think ALL the rabunim from all over the world are wrong and only you plain yidden understand better if we see they ALL think dov is wrong shouldnt we trust them more I can't belive they ALL have it wrong
23
Sep 21, 2008 at 08:05 PM Anonymous Says:
Oh the good ole sheep mentality we inhereted from the christians. Much of klal yisroel acts as if they are brain dead. The torah way is to pursue da'as torah and accept it if it is PROVEN to be daas torah and to REJECT it if it is an opinion of a godol who so happens to be a phenominal IGNORAMUS in the particular sad mesechte. Would you ask your rosh yeshiva, who knows the 5 yeshiva mesechtes and every Ktzois by heart, a difficult Shailo in Hilchos Ishis? Even if he answered you, the responsibility lies on you to determine if he is well versed in the halachos you asked about. One can be a gaon in chassidus or lomdus and an AM HAARETZ M'Deoraiso in other halachos. Likewise, one can be the rosh yeshiva of Lakewood or the Rebbe of Both satmar factions. That would not indicate in any way that he is qualified to paskin hilchos molestation. I suspect that the rabbonim are mute in this subject because they feel they have no answers. However, my daas torah (I too am a career learner) tells me that such a position is in itself criminal. Simple aleph bais logic dictates one to amass huge gatherings of parents in our community, decrie the situation of our children and forbid anyone who has been accused 2 or 3 times from having access to children. Repeat offenders (those caught after a warning) must be handled by the civil authorities, and those who don't meet the above guidlines must be dealt with firmly in a manner to be detirmined. But to sit silently and watch yiddishe kinderlach being passed between the fires of Moilech R"L is murder at the hands of the current controlling rabbonim and askonim. If the Nazis were to invade today I would understand why the rabbonim would be the first once to be carried away to the execution. The leadership has run up a large bill with Hakodosh Baruch Hu.
24
Sep 21, 2008 at 08:04 PM SarahB. Says:
THANK YOU VIN FOR THIS ARTICLE!
As for those of you who are scolding, the reporter, VIN or anyone else for that matter, read a little closer. They are talking about YOU! It is people like YOU who want to keep these terrible acts silent. Baltimore has it's many YEARS of silence.
Would you like to temp me into telling VIN and everyone else here on the internet, WHO in Baltimore is guilty of such things, yet they are still teaching CHILDREN in yeshivas?
25
Sep 21, 2008 at 08:03 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
Dood: I protest this effort to bring that bit of politics into this issue. It never had anything to do with it and still does not. If you want to discuss this issue, call me directly. I declare publicly that my children's schools are completely unrelated to anything that occurred here.
26
Sep 21, 2008 at 07:58 PM formely Says:
moshe Says:
comments - arrow can you guys please explain why would you think ALL the rabunim from all over the world are wrong and only you plain yidden understand better if we see they ALL think dov is wrong shouldnt we trust them more I can't belive they ALL have it wrong
the rabunim have had their chance over to last 20+ years and failed. In many cases, they have protected to molesters, intimated the victims. And the biggest shame of all, did nothing to prevent the molester from doing it again gain again.
das Torah is still protecting Mondrowitz
27
Sep 21, 2008 at 07:53 PM formely Says:
Anonymous Says:
comments - arrow this problem would be much easier solved if the "Awareness Center" out-to-lunch activists weren't discrediting their cause.
they have been keeping children safer by listing
publicizing the, names photos of molesters. If not for them, a melamid who was caught, could go to another community and do it all over again. They have prevented that
28
Sep 21, 2008 at 07:42 PM Policeman Says:
Why can't victims go to the police?
29
Sep 21, 2008 at 08:51 PM VIN analyst Says:
As someone who has been involved in the formation of Dov's task force in this holy venture, it is unfathomable how people are posting here with such confidence in their opinion making them appear factual when in reality their ignorance screams blatantly to people such as myself that unfortunately know too much. How dare you people condemn Dov who has not taken this upon himself for any political purpose whatsoever. Coincidentally Dov is running for his assmebly seat unopposed, so you people need to get your politics straight as well. I know Dov very very well. Dov is doing this entirely L'shem Shomayim. There is no other negia in his entire body. He's doing this to save your children from harm. How dare you have the Chutzpa to condemn him for his Avodas Hakodesh? As for the rabbonim that you claim are against his approach, I implore you to just be a little more patient as all that will change very shortly. When the tens or shall I say hundreds of investigated and highly credible cases come across the tables of these rabbonim and they still turn the other way, I sadly say we are a dor yasom. And any rav or rebbe B'mchilas K'vodam that can have another opinion after these meetings has a din Rodef according to all poskim!!! I know this may sound harsh, but I say this comfortably enough knowing that the Rabbonim will join (and thank) Dov in his holy crusade. So, for all of you that have only negative things to spout here, I advise you to hold your tongues, or rather your fingers from those keyboards, lest you be the very cause of more shfichas domim in our community (with your own fingers). May these days of yemei horachamim finally bring the rachamim we so very much need and may the emes V'hashalom prevail speedily in our days. With blessings to all of klal yisroel for a ksiva b'sefer Hachaim. Amen.
30
Sep 21, 2008 at 09:18 PM Anonymous Says:
Most of today's rabbi's are so busy looking over their shoulders or worried as to what people will think of them they have forgotten their responsibility of being leaders.
What is even sadder is that people look to these rabbis for advice and guidance.
We are doomed!!
31
Sep 21, 2008 at 09:43 PM Anonymous Says:
Rabbi Twersky I understand you fully. I have recently been involved in a case for one of my students who was and still is being molested. I can't give much info, but can say that yes we are told to listen to das Torah, but in my case Hashem led the way for me with my listening to das Torah (who said not to report) by making a total misunderstanding happen. It is true Yiddishe neshamos suffer because of the irresponsibilty of ---, their are people that will suffer when they will have to face the Bais Din Shel Maaleh for all their effort in helping cover up their these stories and threatening all those who are trying to help Yiddishe children. Yes, I have been given the same threats, but have no fear.
32
Sep 21, 2008 at 09:41 PM Anonymous Says:
Thank you VIN for bringing this terrible plague which has plagued all of our communities, to the forefront. Your z'chus in shamayim is immeasurable.
33
Sep 21, 2008 at 09:41 PM formely Says:
Rabbi Heinemann banned the newspaper because they published an article providing evidence that a rabbi and his son who was close to Rabbi Heinemann, was a child molestor who molested about 50-60 children.
The rabbi was dead and his son is still alive and arrested form child molesting.
Is Rabbi Heinemann to be trusted regarding this matter. Rabbi Heinemann and others who try to bully people to keep quiet and butting all children in danger.
While they will give excuses why to keep it quiet, they do not give or have a solution how to stop this problem
34
Sep 21, 2008 at 09:48 PM dood Says:
Reb BenTzion, I regret making those remarks and ask mechileh. I know how hurtful it can be to read shtisim people say about you, your family or kehilah in the news. This whole shpiel isn't bringing anyone any koved and I certainly don't want to be one to add fuel to the fire. I wish you and yours a git gebencht yur.
35
Sep 21, 2008 at 10:06 PM dood Says:
I'd just add that the days when internal matters in our community can be kept IN our community are over. After Gitty Grunwald's story in the New York Magazine became their number one story in history, every editor of every major news outlet surely called in their best reporters and sent them to Monroe to find the next scandal to write about. It won't take long for them to write about all our communities and then all our dirty laundry will be hanging high for all to see. Those who think we can go on and do things "our way" are soon to wake up to an ugly nightmare. We must own up to our own garbage and clean house ourselves before others do the cleaning for us, or there's still who to clean for.
36
Sep 21, 2008 at 10:49 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
The internal politics in our community are plenty painful (or comical if one chooses to view it that way). Discussion of this issue only fans the fires of machlokes. We all have our opinions about that issue, and I have chosen to play no role beyond making observations. There are aspects of it that are very upsetting to many of us from either side. But raising it only accomplishes fanning the flame. Especially since it has no shayachus here, it is particularly unproductive to bring it into discussion. I have less of a problem with those who choose to disagree with me. In my work, it is often necessary to “agree to disagree”. I have made peace with that. But I have too much respect for the Fetter der Ruv R’ Shlomele ZT”L whose entire mission was centered around shalom among Yidden to allow myself to be used to facilitate the process that challenges that.
Mechilah is granted, though I cannot say that I was offended. I am just upset by the potential damage of allowing or aiding machlokes, and it is the respective kehilos that are offended. I do wish you and yours a ksiva vachasima tova.
37
Sep 21, 2008 at 10:52 PM formely Says:
dood Says:
comments - arrow I'd just add that the days when internal matters in our community can be kept IN our community are over. After Gitty Grunwald's story in the New York Magazine became their number one story in history, every editor of every major news outlet surely called in their best reporters and sent them to Monroe to find the next scandal to write about. It won't take long for them to write about all our communities and then all our dirty laundry will be hanging high for all to see.
_______________________________________________
many times it is not the dirty laundry that creates the media sensation it is the cover up that is the story.
The big story about the church, was the cover up, threatening the victims protecting the molesters. And one day your communities inaction will be front page.
If the rabbies and community leaders would take a proactive approach to solve this problem. it will get in the newspaper as a positive story.
sadly, this will not happen, since the cover up continues until this day until some parents will decide my kid is very important to me and to protect him I need to go to people who can the police. I do not go to the police to ask if something is kosher or not. And for protection do not go to the rabbie since he can't and won't. (not going public is one thing, but explain why they protected the molester and still let them teach is inexcusable and criminal. and should be charged with a crime)
The rabbies have made all of you so impotent, that you cannot do anything at all with out their consent, almost like a cult leader.
38
Sep 21, 2008 at 11:13 PM formely Says:
To Benzion Twerski,
I think people are speaking in anger and feel a certain helplessness concerning this issue and how to protect their children.
On one hand they want to protect their children, on the other hand they are stopped from doing anything from the very robonum who they look up for all aspects of live. In addition, after they talk to a rov about the issue, they find out that all efforts was placed to keep it quiet and offed no help to the victim. And if that was not bad enough, if and when it became public and the police where after the molester offered much more help to the molester then they ever offered the victim.
Logically and haklachaly it seems not to make sense at all. The robonuim seem to want to protect criminal behavior at the expence of the children.
You said you stiff for Sholom, but how it that possible, when their leaders, the people they look up to, fail them and their children and continue to hand over the children to molesters
over and over again.
Sholom can only come if they feel save and at least their leaders are doing everything to protect them. But realty seems to be that the leaders are doing everything to hurt them and their children (not saying they are doing onpurpuse)
PS this is a general statement regarding this issue and is not regarding you personally in any shape or form)
39
Sep 21, 2008 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:
If Moshiach wont come soon, he will not have for whom to come for. My heart cries daily for those who yiddishkeit is no more a viable option after being molested by a rebbi and then spurned by the yeshivos and rabbonim. Who can stand up to such negative vibes from our community and still remain frum?
40
Sep 22, 2008 at 04:26 AM Anonymous Says:
Please, we cannot loose sight of what is important here it is our children and future generations. We are responsible,as Yidden together to try to open our eyes to the sickness that are in our community. Sickness does't recognize chasidishe, litvish, modern etc. it crosses all lines. We do need the help of leaders to try to fix this situation. It takes a true leader to step up to the plate. R' Twersky should have known before stepping in what was involved, at the end he put his family first which is fine. Let's get on with it and stop throwing stones to those who are there to put their necks out. We shouldn't be so concerned with our dirty laundry out there, but with nebech the repercussions of what is happening to us . If this were a physical sickness hurting our children there would be ads and chinese auctions and dinners galore. this is a machlah of the worst kind and will affect generations to come please let us stand together. be aware of what is going on in your children's schools, camps, etc. Hashem should help us
41
Sep 22, 2008 at 02:07 AM Annonymous Says:
A Baltimore Rov, regarding children who have been molested, was quoted as saying "there is no lasting effect to these children who have been molested."
The Rabbonim need an education in these matters before taking destructive positions, thereby losing their credibility. The tragedy is that some Rabbinic action (or inaction) regarding these issues, have made people in the know, scornful of the Rabbonim. This is to all our determent, but it is self inflicted.
There is an old saying, "lead, follow or get out of the way." Also, a Chochom understands their limitations. The problem is that Rabbonim uneducated in these matters, don't lead, don't follow, but also don't get out of the way of Rabbonim, experts and lay leaders who have the expertise to deal with these horrific matters.
42
Sep 22, 2008 at 01:58 AM Annonymous Says:
Phil Jacobs will be able to stand before the Kisei HaKovod, after 120, and hold his head up high, that he cared more for the Yiddishe Neshamos being destroyed and took action. This while our so-called Rabbinic leaders swept it under the rug and covered up for these animals.
43
Sep 22, 2008 at 01:37 AM FRUMDEMENTALISM Says:
Kudos to hikind for NOT handling this in the under the radar manner as that lets groups try and bury the truth--and often the already emotionally overwrought victim. What Hikind did takes guts as a number of the headlines involving this happens in his district. And re all those people upset with him for it? Chas Vshalom if it was YOUR child or grandchild as the victim and the yeshiva was stonewalling you and your family/protecting the accused, would you want Hikind to bring THAT case front and center as ONLY by bringing it front and center will you get justice. Hikind's decision was far from easy but its the right thing to do and he's proven himself to be about the right thing. These victims and their families need an advocate--and you cant do much better than Dov. Heck, the guy even wears a Kipah serugah in a market where those are "dirty words"! He's the kind of guy who'll swim against the tide rather than allow himself to be taken for a ride. OK so now that I sound like a bad rapper, I'm stopping!
44
Sep 22, 2008 at 09:36 AM giveitsomethought Says:
why dont , these agenda driven zombies just say it straight out . they dont like the rabonim in baltimore , period . stop disguising this all in youre self righteous rhetoric . if molestation didnt exist these blowhards would invent it.
45
Sep 22, 2008 at 09:59 AM Anonymous Says:
Bottom line. The undeniable fact is the rabbonim in Balti knew all along about the molesters, covered for them and still cover this whole nasty mess with total disregard for the victims.
46
Sep 22, 2008 at 10:26 AM giveitsomethought Says:
most the people , who are complaining are disenchanted ballei tshuva. unfortunately these misfits thought becoming frum would be a way to cure the ails that affected them in the non frum world. they have a hard time dealing with the fact that hose issues are still there , and putting on a yarmulke or shaitel doesnt cure deep seeded issues that are within them. simply put this is a vendetta against rabbonim , skillfully disguised as a fight against molesters. when these people take up the cause the cause loses serious credibility just as it would when a camera hogging poloitician like dov hikind takes up the cause. its time for a little maturity and perspective, only then will people take the serious actions needed to stop the horrible issue of molestation. until that happens im in favor of a screeining process for ballei tshuva in our communities. we are not a house of refuge from treauma in youre earlier life we are a religion and a people just like any other. we cant cure youre problems and social dysfunctions .
47
Sep 22, 2008 at 10:34 AM Anonymous Says:
All this back and forth about whether of not the issue has been handled properly by the rabbonim should come to a screeching halt.
Debating the issue leads people to believe there is another side to the issue when there is only truth.
The facts are simple: There has been nothing substantial done about this problem until now. The interests of the victims has continued to take a back seat to the interests of our institutions.
Creating a fantasy world in which forces of da'as torah, the gedolim and other askonim have dealt with these things in a 'toirahdig' manner behind the scenes may be comforting just as morphine can mask the painfull symptoms of illness until the body can no longer hide its distress.
As children we learn to believe in these unseen heroic forces (Superman, et al.) as a way of dealing with situations out of our control and thoughts too scary for a young mind to contemplate.
A key facet of maturity is the development of the ability to face uncomfortable thoughts and deal with unfortunate situations. Failure to do so leads to the various forms of addiction (gambling, alchohol, smoking and other drugs) to drown our fears and dull the sensations of stress created by our inability to face reality.
Perhaps it is time we started all conventions and other communal events with the simple prayer of recovering alchoholics: Lord, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.
48
Sep 22, 2008 at 10:49 AM fahrfrumt Says:
R' Bentzion,
In your 1st post you said the following:
"But we need some boldness among our leaders to face the spiritual and emotional murder that is occurring on their watch and take responsibility to stop it."
I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, whatever your reasons were for pulling out of the taskforce, they were obviously very real. Don't they also apply to our Rabbonim? If you were afraid for your children's shidduchim among other things, and rightfully so, and that caused you to pull out, how can you blame the Rabbonim for not coming out to the forefront? Shouldn't they also be afraid?
The answer may be because they are leaders and that's what leaders do. They lead in trying times even though there are risks.
R' Bentzion, you are also a leader. In the same way that Hashem proved to David Hamelech how wrong he was by using his own words I tell you: "we need some boldness among our leaders to face the spiritual and emotional murder that is occurring on their watch and take responsibility to stop it."
49
Sep 22, 2008 at 10:48 AM Anonymous Says:
giveitsomethought Says:
most the people , who are complaining are disenchanted ballei tshuva. unfortunately these misfits thought becoming frum would be a way to cure the ails that affected them in the non frum world. they have a hard time dealing with the fact that hose issues are still there , and putting on a yarmulke or shaitel doesnt cure deep seeded issues that are within them. simply put this is a vendetta against rabbonim , skillfully disguised as a fight against molesters. when these people take up the cause the cause loses serious credibility just as it would when a camera hogging poloitician like dov hikind takes up the cause. its time for a little maturity and perspective, only then will people take the serious actions needed to stop the horrible issue of molestation. until that happens im in favor of a screeining process for ballei tshuva in our communities. we are not a house of refuge from treauma in youre earlier life we are a religion and a people just like any other. we cant cure youre problems and social dysfunctions .
09-22-2008 - 10:26 AM
Whenever I see someone offering some absurd claim that either we do not have a problem or we have one but the rabbonim are handling it privatly, I wonder what interest the writer has in having us continue the practice of sweeping these problems under the rug.
This one is a winner though.
Baalai Teshuvah? In YTT?
50
Sep 22, 2008 at 10:51 AM Anonymous Says:
NO Rav ever spoke out against this program of Dov Hikind. If anyone thinks otherwise, please put up names of the Rabonim. The Rabonim all know what problems are out there.
51
Sep 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM Dont be a Horse Says:
You call Cops thats Das Torah. You have that molester arrested and prosecuted thats das torah. The community will hear a few such cases I bet you that there will be no more molesters,,Thats Das torah. thats the only way to solve this issue
52
Sep 22, 2008 at 11:22 AM giveitsomethought Says:
as a response to my charge a cowardly anonymous poster had this to say
"Whenever I see someone offering some absurd claim that either we do not have a problem or we have one but the rabbonim are handling it privatly, I wonder what interest the writer has in having us continue the practice of sweeping these problems under the rug."
by accusing me of having self interst a. you discredit the cause you are supposedly concearned about and b. you show your true colors, that what you are after is not molesters but rather rabbonim. these accusations are easy to banter about its the facts that seem to confuse you blowhards
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Sep 22, 2008 at 11:48 AM Anonymous Says:
How does criticism of balei tshuvah enter this discussion? FYI balei tshuvah CHOOSE to be shomer mitzvos because they believe in HaShem and the Torah's moral and ethical teachings. They see FFBs fail to live by the Torah and Rabbis defend the violators. Don't accuse BTs of being wrong. As I said, Balei Tshuvah CHOSE to live a frum life. Maybe it is YOU who defend the violators who should leave the community. You all CHOSE not to keep the Torah and mitzvos. Isn't incorrigible abuse that the Rabbis can't control one of the times we are obligated to seek help from secular authorities?
Also, why is the neshama of an FFB's child more important than a BT's?
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Sep 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM formely Says:
giveitsomethought Says:
most the people , who are complaining are disenchanted ballei tshuva. unfortunately these misfits thought becoming frum would be a way to cure the ails that affected them in the non frum world.
fact please, where do you get your info. so all those that exposed the molesters are BT. If you say something like that you need to back it up.
The few that became public where FFB. Or, maybe the BT are not that stupid and blind when the rebbies lies and say "we are doing about the problem" like you.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 12:51 PM giveitsomethought Says:
i never said they were responsible for molestation , read before you lash out. i said they are disenfranchised and latching on to molestation as a cuse celebre to advance other greivences.
to all the people who accuse me of supporting molesters , i wont fall for youre sick tactics , once again you animals exploit molested children to advance youre causes. why dont you say what you really want to say , you hate rabbonim pure and simple.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 12:55 PM giveitsomethought Says:
oh and by the way thats exactly what i said ffb children are more valuble than bt children. please you people sink to new levels of idiocy every time you let out you vitriolic rants against rabbonim. again say what you want to say you hate 1. yiddishkeit 2. god 3. rabbonim and probably most of all yourselves and youre parents
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Sep 22, 2008 at 01:02 PM Anonymous Says:
If the BJT instead tiilitaling the audience would have done true journalism some good come have come out
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Sep 22, 2008 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:
as a response to my charge a cowardly anonymous poster had this to say
"Whenever I see someone offering some absurd claim that either we do not have a problem or we have one but the rabbonim are handling it privatly, I wonder what interest the writer has in having us continue the practice of sweeping these problems under the rug."
by accusing me of having self interst a. you discredit the cause you are supposedly concearned about and b. you show your true colors, that what you are after is not molesters but rather rabbonim. these accusations are easy to banter about its the facts that seem to confuse you blowhards
09-22-2008 - 11:22 AM
I love when people make fools of themselves using the internet to defend the rabbonim who have banned the internet (not that I totally disagree with them) but have done nothing about child abuse.
As for having it in for the rabbonim - They only come into the picture because fools keep writing about the rabbonim having things under control and handling things privately. I'd be very happy if the rabbonim all stepped aside and let law enforcement deal with these problems. The rabbonim are powerless to deal with pedophiles and other abusers and should simply stand back.
BTW, can you name the rabbonim in whose name you are attacking Dov Hikind & Co.? Can you name the rabbonim who still say that they are handling these things and everyone else should shut up?
The facts are simple: The rabbonim have not, will not, and can not handle these problems.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 12:49 PM Anonymous Says:
It is persons who allegedly taught and knew daas torah who molsted children why talk about daas torah. Maybe the psychiatric daas would help. It is the law of omerta which plays a factor here
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Sep 22, 2008 at 12:48 PM giveitsomethought Says:
baltimore doesnt need bettar rabbonim it needs a ballei tshuva clearing house. it doesnt need bettar rabonim it needs the cowardly institution known as ne israel to stop ignoring its community. it doesnt need bettar rabonim it needs to set some standards as to what is accepted in a frum community. you people , yes i said you people raise youre kids in an enviorment that punishes and judges nothing and then you people throw up your hands when youre kids go off the derech commit crimes etc. etc. its easy to pawn off all your problems on rabbonim its hard to take responsibilty for the idiotic practises in which you raise youre children.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 01:09 PM giveitsomethought Says:
the bjt is not a newspaper and its writers arent journalist , its a propoganda rag ,run by an extremely angry and bitter man by the name of phil jacobs. why anyone would have ever made a monster like that frum beats the hell out of me. he is a cancer in the baltimore community and should be put in cheirim. oh and he claims he was molested if you believe that i have a bridge to sell you.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 01:35 PM Anon. Says:
To giveitsomethought,
"most the people , who are complaining are disenchanted ballei tshuva."
How could you make such a claim? Because P. Jacobs is one? Any comment that could be logical after that -has to be disregarded because of your sinas chinom to BT's. As matter of fact, I would venture to say most people blogging here are FFB's. I know I'm one. I also don't like the fact that Rabonnim in our generation don't want to deal with real issues, they only like screaming about things that are the most a toful in Judaism, e.g. Concerts. Stop worshiping Rabbonim which could border on Avodah Zorah because of your negious and start thinking what Hashem & his Torah want from you! Maybe you should start telling your Rabbonim who you cherish so much, to start worrying about the Ikkur and stop concentrating on the Toful. I know I have, but haven't gotten any meaningful response as of yet.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 01:59 PM giveitsomethought Says:
you know nothing about ikiur vs taful . you know everything about hate bitterness and anger. you know nothing about dass torah you know everything about letzanus ( in the real sense of the word ) you know nothing about yiddishkeit you know everything about bittul.basically you know nothing about torahdike yiddishkeit. you are selfish and self serving like the rest of you loudmouths here. so sorry but when all is said and done the prize doesnt go to whom scrame the loudest , but to who was right. you sound like a classic ner israel am haaretz
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Sep 22, 2008 at 01:55 PM Annonymous Says:
"giveitsomethought," I think you need to question your own motives.
FYI, I fit none of your foolish demographics. I am an FFB, and B"H, none of my children have ever been victims of molestations.
That is not the point. Being involved in my community, I know many people who themselves and /or their children have been molested. Many of these children go off the derech because of it. Some have withdrawn from society and lead empty lives. I also know of some who have (R'L)committed suicide after a rebbi molested them and they couldn't cope with life. They didn't receive professional help. Worst of all, is the parent who refuses to believe their child.
Here is the bottom line and this goes to motivation and why I question yours:
Klal Yisroel is considered as one Neshama. We are all part of the whole. People who have no compassion for those victims and/or protect the offender, are equally guilty as the molester and don't consider themselves part of the Klal. It is their lineage that should be questioned, not the Baalei Teshuvah.
Perhaps they have the status of the Eirev Rav....ask your Rav for a more definitive evaluation. That's just my feeling.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 01:46 PM Rivky Says:
All of you geniuses saying Dov is doing this for his re-election are fools! He can only lose votes because of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are all so wrapped up in not believing this can actually occur that you immediately write someone off who is trying to help as not following Daas Torah!
What if I told you that becuase he is publicizing it two molesters left Borough Park.
What if I told you that becuaes he published it on the radio, a woman who was abused by her father (not knowing exactly what happerned to her) started abusing her two year old son, and when listening to the radio show realized what she was doing and enrolled herselp in therapy!
What if I told you that this problem is so terrible that it is documented trhat many of the kids that went off the derech themselves were abused.
You are all a bunch of fools!
The only guy that is trying to publicly make a difference is doing something and you warmongers publish immature rediculuos '1st hand' assesmenmts.
Great Stuff! Wondeful! Good job knocking someone for helping! That is gonna get you into olam Haba.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 02:47 PM Annonymous Says:
giveitsome(very little) thought: So far, you've attacked Baalei Teshuvah, victims of molestation, anyone who cares about them and their neshama's (calling them "agenda driven zombies") ner israel, etc. in a very mean and nasty way.
Everyone here who disagrees with you you call "selfish and self serving like the rest of you loudmouths" and claim that you have an exclusive of Torah Yiddishkeit.
"I think thou protesteth too much." I wonder why???
Also, in a previous post, you attacked people for "anonymouss posts." I guess "giveitsome thought" was given to you at birth!
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Sep 22, 2008 at 03:26 PM Anonymous Says:
Somehow I get the feeling that Giveitsomethought would do well to give some thought to therapy in order to learn to deal with his anger issues.
Lets see - He has a problem with Dov Hikind, BTs, the children of BTs, NIRC, anyone who disagrees with him, anyone who has figured out that the rabbonim are either unable or simply unwilling to solve this problem, ...........
Sounds like someone has an agenda to scare us all into another forty years of inaction.
Does someone have a skeleton in thier closet?
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Sep 22, 2008 at 03:26 PM Anonymous Says:
Somehow I get the feeling that Giveitsomethought would do well to give some thought to therapy in order to learn to deal with his anger issues.
Lets see - He has a problem with Dov Hikind, BTs, the children of BTs, NIRC, anyone who disagrees with him, anyone who has figured out that the rabbonim are either unable or simply unwilling to solve this problem, ...........
Sounds like someone has an agenda to scare us all into another forty years of inaction.
Does someone have a skeleton in thier closet?
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Sep 22, 2008 at 04:35 PM giveitsomethought Says:
thats exactly the script , if someone diagrees with youre agenda , and lets call it what it is its an agenda, you tar feather and throw wanton accusations his way. you loudmouths dont own this issue , nor do you represent me or others who feel how i feel . you have hijacked judiaism ( or however you define it ) and purport to represent traditional judiaism . we dont use the ugly tactics , never have never will . so do what you need to do , just not in my name.
so go ahead accuse me of molestation , dont you think accusations like that cheapen youre cause.if you can throw these accusations around at the tip of a hat , it just further proves what youre real motivations are. please remember though in judiaism the ends have never justified the means.
lastly when you argue with people come somewhat prepared , insults will never win a debate they just make you sound shrill and ignorant like you are.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 04:51 PM Anonymous Says:
Well, lets see who is hurling insults, shall we?
You have accused those of us who recognise the sad reality that our rabbonim have not been an effective force against child molestation of having an agenda, being loudmouths, hijacking Judaism, not knowing how to define Judaism, and by inference, use dirty tricks, cheapening our own cause, throwing around accusations of molestation at the tip of a hat (black fedora type, I assume), coming into a debate unprepared, and finally, sounding and being shrill and ignorant.
Who was it you accused of hurling insults?
Give it a little thought before applying your fingertips to the keyboard.
You seem much too interested in making the rest of us believe child molestation does not happen in our circles.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 05:33 PM Anonymous Says:
youre answer says it . you dont know what to say when people dont agree with you .thats probably why to a large degree you come here you take comfort in the fact that there are thousands of blowhards who will agree with you here. you didnt answer one point i made you continue to malign me versus answering what i sai, and most impoertantly if you really considered molestation a serious issue you wouldnt be so quick to throw it around.
youre vitriolic hate just proves time and time again you arent after the molesters you arent upset about molestation you are mad about every aspect of judiaism and use molestation as a tool to further youre distorted views.
i feel no need to insult you, you do a good enough job at that.
say it clearly , cleanse youre soul , you hate rabonim period.just remeber no amount of name calling and vitriol will make up for what you really need peace from within youre own demented sick mind.
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Sep 22, 2008 at 06:23 PM Annonymous Says:
BTW giveitsome(very little) thought: The Rabbonim in Baltimore came out with a Psak that specifically says that molesters are a Rodef and should be reported to the authorities.
They also acknowledge the seriousness of the problem and their lack of attention to this critical issue that is destrying Yiddishe Neshamas.
The only problem is that the follow-up hass been abysmal.
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Sep 23, 2008 at 02:19 AM beenthere Says:
Just for the record - BZ Twerski ended up attending, and we should all be glad that he did the right thing.
The conference was informative and provocative, and definitely l'shem shamayim. Hopefully it won't die there, especially for the sake of survivors and their famiies...
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Sep 23, 2008 at 09:39 AM Anonymous Says:
Anonymous (Thinkaboutit) Says:
youre answer says it . you dont know what to say when people dont agree with you .
> I'm always ready to answer a coherent thought that disagrees with mine. Offer one and I will do the same.
thats probably why to a large degree you come here you take comfort in the fact that there are thousands of blowhards who will agree with you here.
> Thousands? well, now, who is calling who a blow-hard?!
you didnt answer one point i made
> You didn't make any
you continue to malign me versus answering what i sai,
> Malign you? How? It is you tossing around insults at everyone who hasn't fallen for your 'toirahdig way of dealing with the molestation that never happens' foolishness.
and most impoertantly if you really considered molestation a serious issue you wouldnt be so quick to throw it around.
> No one (with the possible exception of the person claiming a 7:1 abused:non-abused ratio) has 'tossed around' anything. I have repeatedly stated that it is in fact too serious a problem to be left to be handled by rabbonim and others incapable or unwilling to handle it.
youre vitriolic hate just proves time and time again
> can you please point out one instance of vitriolic hatred displayed in anyone's comments? I cannot find it.
you arent after the molesters you arent upset about molestation you are mad about every aspect of judiaism and use molestation as a tool to further youre distorted views.
> As much as I'd like to avoid anything resembling a personal attack on you, my limited linguastic skills fall short when searching for a way to point out the foolishnesss, absurdity and arrogance of this attack on every person upset that instead of the Mondrowitz case being the wake up call responsible rabbonim should not have needed, it became the training ground for inaction, untracable culpibility, and improved use of the plausable deniability stratagy.
i feel no need to insult you, you do a good enough job at that.
say it clearly , cleanse youre soul , you hate rabonim period.just remeber no amount of name calling and vitriol will make up for what you really need peace from within youre own demented sick mind.
09-22-2008 - 5:33 PM
> Once more,, I respectfully ask you to highlight the comments in which personal insults were dispatched in your direction.
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Sep 24, 2008 at 02:39 AM Anon. Says:
To anon. @ 9:39 am,
Unfortunately I think our comments are falling on deaf ears. Either he is mentally ill or he has been so brainwashed since he is a little boy never to challenge authority. Throughout the generations Klal Yisroel were tested with false leadership - starting from Moshe Rabbainu's time on down. I'm not saying the Rabbonim in our generation are like people like Shabbtzay Tzvi, just maybe they can't handle every problem that comes their way. Had they had some introspect they might have realized this. Had they realized this -they should have gone to the gedolim in EY and asked them to come out with guidelines. One tends to wonder why they haven't gone with this to the gedolim in EY (or to Rav Moshe when he was alive) instead of sweeping everything under the carpet. Perhaps they are scared of the repercussions that would affect their instituions.