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Brooklyn, NY - Judge Appears Shocked That Anonymous Unsubstantiated Tip Prompted Orthodox Girls School To Expel Student

Published on: July 9, 2015 12:30 PM
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Brooklyn, NY - Preliminary proceedings have begun in a case being brought against a Brooklyn Bais Yaakov, with the presiding judge at the initial hearing expressing incredulity that a teenager could have been thrown out of school because of an unproven accusation by an unnamed individual.

As previously reported on VIN News Lev Bais Yaakov is being sued by a former student, identified in court records only as G.S. because of her age, for expelling her in December 2013 after the school’s principal allegedly received a phone call from a mother charging that G.S. had texted an inappropriate picture of herself to a boy.

VIN News obtained the 30 page court transcripts of the initial hearing, which took place on June 30th in Brooklyn federal court.  According to the transcript, G.S.’s attorney Robert Tolchin outlined the details of the incident to Judge Ramon E. Reyes, Jr., who confirmed facts with Adam Guzik and Israel Goldberg, attorneys for Lev Bais Yaakov, located in Sheepshead Bay.

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Tolchin said that his client was ejected from Lev Bais Yaakov because of the picture, which neither his client’s parents, nor anyone in the school, had ever seen.  While the claim had originally been made that it was the menaheles, Mrs. Rivka Oratz, who had received the anonymous tip, Tolchin told Judge Reyes it was actually another member of the administration, tentatively identified by Guzik as general studies principal Batya Sochaczewski, who took the call.

Guzik stated that he had yet to speak with Mrs. Sochaczewski but that it was his understanding that the school’s principals never saw the picture.  Goldberg noted that he believed that the anonymous tipster declined to show anyone alleged picture out of concern that it might tarnish her son’s reputation within the community.

Asked by Judge Reyes if G.S. has been expelled because of an anonymous tip with no proof supplied, Guzik did not deny the claims but rather countered that the alleged offense was a major infraction of school rules. Guzik’s remark prompted the judge to respond with incredulity, asking the defense lawyer twice in succession, “Are you serious?”

Guzik, who said he had not seen all of the case files yet,  said that he believed that G.S.  had been disciplined by Lev Bais Yaakov previously for both in-school cell phone usage and behavioral issues and that she was struggling academically, which precipitated meetings between the school and her parents. Goldberg described G.S. as a “troubled girl” who “was causing trouble” and suggested that her ejection after the anonymous phone call “may have been just the culmination of those many issues.”

Judge Reyes expressed concern about the school’s decision to expel G.S.

“It’s really troubling,” said Judge Reyes.  “It’s really troubling. The straw that broke the camel’s back was an anonymous call and an allegation, if it even happened. You’ve got to admit it’s problematic.”

The June 30th hearing was just the first step in what could be a lengthy legal process, and both sides will begin the disclosure process to identify potential witnesses and relevant documents.  All depositions are scheduled to be completed by the end of December and Tolchin says he expects a trial to begin in early 2016.

“I am looking forward to having the process bring out the truth of what happened,” Tolchin told VIN News.

VIN News reached out to Rabbi Shmiel Deutsch, executive director of Lev Bais Yaakov, who declined to comment on the situation.


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Read Comments (116)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jul 09, 2015 at 12:46 PM yonasonw Says:

How dare the Court question Das Torah!

I am sure that the Beis Yaakov's Va'ad HaChinuch made absolutely sure that no possible injustice could have been done to this scoundrel of a student. Why...if we don't stand up to this anti-Semitic intrusion...the next thing they'll do is question why Lakewood girls have such a hard time getting into high school every year.

Tsk tsk tsk!

2

 Jul 09, 2015 at 12:49 PM talking Says:

If the allegations are true, the polite response is a thank you. You can always delete a picture you don't want to keep if you are so bothered by it. Stories like this make me worry that nice jewish girls will stop interacting with nice jewish boys for fear of retribution. What will the boys do then?

3

 Jul 09, 2015 at 12:54 PM Bezalel Says:

Sounds like a violation of due process.

4

 Jul 09, 2015 at 12:55 PM pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

5

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:18 PM abuezri Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

So is the school's insurance company willing to go to Bais Din? Seriously?

6

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

Even if your right it's the schools fault why the girl is like this they put her on the street. It's like the person that kills his parents Ch'v then asks the judge for mercy because he's an orphan.

7

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:33 PM Pops Says:

Was the boy expelled from his yeshiva?

8

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:33 PM outraged Says:

While I agree that this should have been brought to Bais Din, i feel for the parents
and the girl. Schools and the administrations could not care less about the individual student. These schools are merely a business to them. How dare they expel a girl for an unseen and unsubstantiated claim? this is not the kind of thing she can recover from without scars. Many young kids make mistakes. Nobodys perfect, as demonstrated by children all over the world, even from the BEST HOMES

9

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:

how many kids can't even get into school to begin with - in our county there are 2 Haredi schools (one Chassidish and one Litvish), but neither will let our kids in, and the Modern Orthodox School isn't exactly right for a family where the father wears a shtreimel & white socks and the mother wears a shpitzel, and the girls wear braids and tights etc. Our kids are the most popular and very well behaved kids in the day camp for summer (Satmar) but the year-round schools don't care

10

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:53 PM 5TResident Says:

Reply to #2  
talking Says:

If the allegations are true, the polite response is a thank you. You can always delete a picture you don't want to keep if you are so bothered by it. Stories like this make me worry that nice jewish girls will stop interacting with nice jewish boys for fear of retribution. What will the boys do then?

You don't want to know.

11

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:53 PM 5TResident Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

Whatever happened to Dina D'malchusa Dina?

12

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:00 PM mewhoze Says:

very sad

13

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

We don't pasken by our own understanding of the Shulchan Aruch. We ask our Daas Torah what to do. In this case, is any bais din going to find against the Bais Yaakov? I personally have seen how corrupt most batei din are. It may be possible to find one that is not corrupt, but I can tell you it is not easy. And, after you find one, you need to get the other side to agree to that bais din. They can suggest another bais din, which may be corrupt. So you get to suggest a third, that they can decline. Then you may get to a zabla bais din, which is not universally accepted. It is very easy to criticize these people, but if you have been involved in a bais din you have to know that justice is in shomayim, not here on earth, at least not currently.

14

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:45 PM Frish Says:

Tough situation to comment on. But with all the schools x having a plan and approach in place to deal with students who fall thru the cracks. And the rejection rate bring so high. I HV a very hard time siding with the school.

15

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:48 PM Butterfly Says:

To destroy evidence and a person's reputation seems very questionable -- Why delete the picture? It is now one person's word against another's> Maybe we need a lie detector? It may not be admissable in court but it may help.

16

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:55 PM Anonymous Says:

I know nothing of the facts here, nor the legal issues, nor the relevant laws themselves. However, it is with gratitude to HKB"H that I watch the matter play out in court, in full view of the public. Why? Because the yeshiva/bais yaakov schools have been throwing out students at alarming rates, citing the "kedusha" of the school environment. This is opposite of all the guidance from Gedolei Yisroel, who require the yeshiva/school to insure the talmid/oh never ends up in the street, that there has been some form of adjudication by rabbonim that are knowledgeable about chinuch and the relevant subject matter, who are also objective (not connected to the yeshiva in any way). This guidance is virtually never followed. Gedolei Yisroel have also weighed in on the barbaric practice of throwing kids to the street/public school for outstanding tuition (from those who have hardship). Do yeshivos listen to this? Rarely if ever. This court proceeding, regardless of the outcome, will make yeshivos think twice before expelling a student. That would be a victory for Klal Yisroel.

If a kid has an issue, deal with it. Or move the kid to a more suitable yeshiva.

17

 Jul 09, 2015 at 01:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Goldberg described her as a troubled girl.....

If LBY is a school that teaches torah to our girls then they must be held to a higher standard and should not allow their attorney to talk about a bas Yisroel in the public arena in this way

The arrogance of the school just shows who they really are. Any other school in this predicament would have figured out a way to settle with the parents and make this go away asap.

I think this enough of an indication of who these people really are

I would love to hear from more parents what they think about this

18

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:00 PM posaikacharon Says:

this reminds me of the guy that defended his right of way and turned out to be dead right. (the other guy was dead wrong). this case is so unfortunate because both families will suffer horribly as will the image of this excellent school. what a shame.

19

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:07 PM great_unknown Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

The girl's parents summoned the Bais Yaakov to a din torah before a Bais Din, as per halacha. The Bais Yaakov refused the summons. The Bais Din, after failing to get the BY to appear, issued a Shtar Siruv and a heter to litigate in secular court, again, as per normative halacha. As far as can be determined, the girl's family has followed halacha scrupulously in this matter.

20

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:10 PM dick613 Says:

Reply to #3  
Bezalel Says:

Sounds like a violation of due process.

True, but since when does a school have to follow due process (from a legal standpoint, not menchlichkeit)?

21

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:12 PM dick613 Says:

Reply to #7  
Pops Says:

Was the boy expelled from his yeshiva?

He most probably does not exist.

22

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:13 PM dick613 Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

how many kids can't even get into school to begin with - in our county there are 2 Haredi schools (one Chassidish and one Litvish), but neither will let our kids in, and the Modern Orthodox School isn't exactly right for a family where the father wears a shtreimel & white socks and the mother wears a shpitzel, and the girls wear braids and tights etc. Our kids are the most popular and very well behaved kids in the day camp for summer (Satmar) but the year-round schools don't care

What does that have to do with the issue being discussed here?

23

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:15 PM fat36 Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

They took it to the right place everything else is corrupt

24

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:24 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

The Shulchan Aruch assumes a functioning system of credible batei dinam that, nebuch, we do not have today...and there are no 2 ways around that. On a case by case basis, there are many a Rav who permit people to enter into civil litigation in that context.

If you really believe that taking an established Beis Yaakov before a beis din in Brooklyn would net a fair and impartial hearing I think you are sorely mistaken.

25

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:26 PM WolfishMusings Says:

Reply to #20  
dick613 Says:

True, but since when does a school have to follow due process (from a legal standpoint, not menchlichkeit)?

Do they *have to* follow due process? No, they don't have to. But if they expel a student *and* defame her in email to others without any investigation and without proper evidence, then it shows that they are highly negligent regarding any damage that may result.

The Wolf

26

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:27 PM Ina Says:

Thank you, VIN, for continuing to keep us up to date concerning this matter. I hope the family sees this through to the end. Sue this school for all it has, close it down and all others like it!

27

 Jul 09, 2015 at 02:42 PM pnimi Says:

Reply to #19  
great_unknown Says:

The girl's parents summoned the Bais Yaakov to a din torah before a Bais Din, as per halacha. The Bais Yaakov refused the summons. The Bais Din, after failing to get the BY to appear, issued a Shtar Siruv and a heter to litigate in secular court, again, as per normative halacha. As far as can be determined, the girl's family has followed halacha scrupulously in this matter.

A Shtar Siruv and a Heter?
Have you seen it?
Aderraba, provide proof.

28

 Jul 09, 2015 at 03:07 PM FlatbushMom Says:

Unfortunately, this story is all too common.....an overzelous Principal who has high aspirations for herself so she'll step on anybody to get there. Listen to Ted Hour Podcast about Maslow's heiarchy. These people are stuck at a very low rung and never reach Self Actualiztions. Nebech on us!!
Too bad there are no Rabbis worth their salt ready to speak out on this or at least do something meaningful to help out our precious neshamos. Unfortunately, teens in public school are treated better. Ho Hum.... let's concentrate on other important matters......

29

 Jul 09, 2015 at 03:12 PM Speaksoftly Says:

Having read all the comments posted relating to this story, I find one omission glaring - who speaks for Klall Yisroel? There is obvious pain here- the girl,her parents, the school administration and the community at large. We have and have had a problem in our schools for many years with children who don't or can't perform up to expectations. This dissonance , caused by a multitude of reasons both psychological, physical and financial , leads to a painful path for these children and their families. Boys and girls, alone and in groups, act out in ways that harm themselves AND OUR COMMUNITY. We should not descend into finger-pointing - we must responsibly find creative alternatives and preventive measures that account for our childrens' differences. Perhaps this case will finally prod us into responsible action.

30

 Jul 09, 2015 at 03:31 PM dick613 Says:

Reply to #27  
pnimi Says:

A Shtar Siruv and a Heter?
Have you seen it?
Aderraba, provide proof.

No one owes you proof.

31

 Jul 09, 2015 at 03:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

I know nothing of the facts here, nor the legal issues, nor the relevant laws themselves. However, it is with gratitude to HKB"H that I watch the matter play out in court, in full view of the public. Why? Because the yeshiva/bais yaakov schools have been throwing out students at alarming rates, citing the "kedusha" of the school environment. This is opposite of all the guidance from Gedolei Yisroel, who require the yeshiva/school to insure the talmid/oh never ends up in the street, that there has been some form of adjudication by rabbonim that are knowledgeable about chinuch and the relevant subject matter, who are also objective (not connected to the yeshiva in any way). This guidance is virtually never followed. Gedolei Yisroel have also weighed in on the barbaric practice of throwing kids to the street/public school for outstanding tuition (from those who have hardship). Do yeshivos listen to this? Rarely if ever. This court proceeding, regardless of the outcome, will make yeshivos think twice before expelling a student. That would be a victory for Klal Yisroel.

If a kid has an issue, deal with it. Or move the kid to a more suitable yeshiva.

I wish you were right but sad to say it will never happen
i live in Monsey, try Bais Rochel high school and you will understand

32

 Jul 09, 2015 at 03:40 PM emes01 Says:

Expelling a student today is pretty much a guarantee the child will never get into a decent school and puts them at serious risk of going off the derech. We need a process where a respected community member needs to agree expulsion is the only solution and alternatives explored before there is even talk of expulsion. We are talking about our children and this can happen in any family so no one should be too harsh about judging these children.

33

 Jul 09, 2015 at 04:14 PM Anonymous Says:

All the schools should shut down. They know one thing is how to take your money they don't teach your kids anything anymore.The ppl working in the school or the heads don't care about you any more its just about them!!!!!!!

34

 Jul 09, 2015 at 04:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to# 1 you say das tora were is there das tora

35

 Jul 09, 2015 at 04:22 PM I love my child no matter what Says:

Reply to #29  
Speaksoftly Says:

Having read all the comments posted relating to this story, I find one omission glaring - who speaks for Klall Yisroel? There is obvious pain here- the girl,her parents, the school administration and the community at large. We have and have had a problem in our schools for many years with children who don't or can't perform up to expectations. This dissonance , caused by a multitude of reasons both psychological, physical and financial , leads to a painful path for these children and their families. Boys and girls, alone and in groups, act out in ways that harm themselves AND OUR COMMUNITY. We should not descend into finger-pointing - we must responsibly find creative alternatives and preventive measures that account for our childrens' differences. Perhaps this case will finally prod us into responsible action.

There are 2 issues here:

1. There is a disconnect between what we think our yeshiva's should do for our children and what Yeshiva's aspire to do.
2. The way Mrs. Oratz deals with people.

#1:
We think Yeshiva's should:
a. provide an education
b. instill morals and values
c. give our children a love of yiddishkeit
d. love our children no matter what

In actuality, Yeshiva's aspire to:
a. make money
b. provide an education

#2
Whether Mrs. Oratz had a reason or not to oust this girl, we will never know. The real issue here is how Mrs. Oratz has dealt and continues to deal with people.
Because the way Mrs. Oratz approached me and the words she used to describe my child have had a tremendous negative impact on me and my family. No one should ever know from this pain.

36

 Jul 09, 2015 at 04:27 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #25  
WolfishMusings Says:

Do they *have to* follow due process? No, they don't have to. But if they expel a student *and* defame her in email to others without any investigation and without proper evidence, then it shows that they are highly negligent regarding any damage that may result.

The Wolf

This is not my area of expertise, but I wonder if constitutional due process might not creep in as an issue, to the extent that the school is serving in the place of public schools, carrying out a statutorily mandated public function.

That said, whatever the answer is there...the standard of care and duty to the child and parents owed by the school, before it can be allowed to substantiate publicly an unconfirmed allegation of misconduct, would get you generally to the same place: a fair hearing on the alleged facts presented by the Bais Yaakov as justification for its actions.

37

 Jul 09, 2015 at 04:31 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #30  
dick613 Says:

No one owes you proof.

He wasn't asking for the proof personally, silly...I read him as merely saying the obvious...a yeshiva should have credible evidence before it acts as did this Bais Yaakov.

38

 Jul 09, 2015 at 04:41 PM A Says:

Reply to #15  
Butterfly Says:

To destroy evidence and a person's reputation seems very questionable -- Why delete the picture? It is now one person's word against another's> Maybe we need a lie detector? It may not be admissable in court but it may help.

At this point it doesn't even matter if it's true whether the girl did send a picture. The problem is that the school acted without proof and from an anonymous source. That is certainly not enough to cause someone to be expelled. The school deserves to be sued, and whoever made the decision to expel the girl should be fired...at least s/he will have lost her/his position because of something s/he did, not an anonymous rumor. This behavior is so heinous that I believe this is the right course to take even if the girl did email a picture.

39

 Jul 09, 2015 at 04:51 PM yudel Says:

Bais Din ruled.
The schools can't be given carte blanch to do as they please, there must be checks and balances.
The courts will have to address it.

The most dangerous word is "trust me".
That's what the schools say, Yidi K. says don't trust them.

40

 Jul 09, 2015 at 05:01 PM Ina Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

All the schools should shut down. They know one thing is how to take your money they don't teach your kids anything anymore.The ppl working in the school or the heads don't care about you any more its just about them!!!!!!!

"The ppl working in the school or the heads don't care about you any more its just about them!!!!!!! ”

So true!

41

 Jul 09, 2015 at 05:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Goldberg described her as a troubled girl.....

If LBY is a school that teaches torah to our girls then they must be held to a higher standard and should not allow their attorney to talk about a bas Yisroel in the public arena in this way

The arrogance of the school just shows who they really are. Any other school in this predicament would have figured out a way to settle with the parents and make this go away asap.

I think this enough of an indication of who these people really are

I would love to hear from more parents what they think about this

42

 Jul 09, 2015 at 05:31 PM Anonymous Says:

So the girls in this school, who are being sent there to learn hilchos lashon hara, being dan lkaf zchus, and true chesed, ie: being considerate of people who are more disadvantaged, including those who may have learning challenges and are not as smart as you, are supposed to learn those things from this story?????

43

 Jul 09, 2015 at 05:20 PM Our school system is corrupt Says:

The system is corrupt and so you have corrupt people with no accountability doing whatever they want. It is one thing to expel a student based on hearsay, presumably the school has a right to retain and expel at will. However it is quite another thing to send out a libelous, defamatory, and reputation destroying email. The balance of power in our schools is totally tilted in favor of the schools with parents having no say,control, or recourse. It is a situation that is ideal for abuse of parents and children. The other example that comes to mind is the girls schools In Israel where they recently had to get rid of the Owner/Dean because his nefarious exploits were finally exposed. And of course lets not forget a certain school on Ocean Parkway near 18th Avenue. We could go on and on. The bottom line is it is long past time for major reform and overhaul. Please excuse the use of the word reform.

44

 Jul 09, 2015 at 05:29 PM Mayer Says:

The school may have been quite right to expel the girl based on normative standards expected in a Beis Yakov School. However that means that someone with broad shoulders and an open - open not cheap or closed - mind should have seen the picture and decided based on the evidence what to do. As it is, this Beis Yakov deserves whatever it has coming to it, and from the Judge's remarks that is going to be a lot of opprobrium at the least.

45

 Jul 09, 2015 at 07:48 PM bigduvid Says:

What happened to having two witness'. One eid is not accepted. An anonymous phone call. For all we know it is bogus. For all we know, another student in the school or another girl in the community had a fall out with this girl and made the call to get back at her or to be vindictive.

I thought the person [accuser] giving this testimony needs to face off with the accused.

Throwing a student out of a school into a lions den is RETZICA.

All these mechanchim, school administration and school leadership have innocent blood on their hands.

46

 Jul 09, 2015 at 07:51 PM Butterfly Says:

To #38 Can you prove that the girl sent the picture? That is all I ask!!

47

 Jul 09, 2015 at 08:31 PM Anonymous Says:

May G.S. Be MATZLIACH in her case and win. The yentas behind this slander should be exposed and punished.

48

 Jul 09, 2015 at 08:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

Tell that to the Satmar brothers.

49

 Jul 09, 2015 at 08:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
yonasonw Says:

How dare the Court question Das Torah!

I am sure that the Beis Yaakov's Va'ad HaChinuch made absolutely sure that no possible injustice could have been done to this scoundrel of a student. Why...if we don't stand up to this anti-Semitic intrusion...the next thing they'll do is question why Lakewood girls have such a hard time getting into high school every year.

Tsk tsk tsk!

I assume that your comment was meant sarcastically, as self-righteous yeshiva management who acted without seeing any evidence and on the testimony of an anonymous complainant is as far from Da'as Torah as you can get.

50

 Jul 09, 2015 at 08:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

as corrupt as secular court is, virtually every single besdin is more corrupt. While there exist two or three honest batei dinim in the tri-state area, I have been to besdin often on business matters, and the only times I have won were those cases where I was willing to pay a higher bribe to the besdin than my opponent. in other cases, the other side was willing to outspend me and my offer to the besdin for a favorable verdict was not high enough.

I plead with friends and family members not to EVER go to besdin under any circumstances (except if they go with one of the honest ones) unless they are prepared to outspend their opponents to win. aand before you all jump on me, I was and still am a Boro Park Shtibbel Yid for over sixty years

51

 Jul 09, 2015 at 08:56 PM School is right Says:

I have no problem with what the school did. If this girl was causing trouble and bring down the class or the school name they have every right to expel her. They don't need cause, this is like employment at will or going to a sporting event where they could expel you at any moment without cause.

52

 Jul 09, 2015 at 08:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
pnimi Says:

A Shtar Siruv and a Heter?
Have you seen it?
Aderraba, provide proof.

why does anyone have to provide proof to a yenta like you? you are noit involved in the case, have no personal knowledge of any part of it, and yet you spread Loshon Horah regardless.

Why does anyone have to prove ANYTHING to YOU?

53

 Jul 09, 2015 at 09:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Speaksoftly Says:

Having read all the comments posted relating to this story, I find one omission glaring - who speaks for Klall Yisroel? There is obvious pain here- the girl,her parents, the school administration and the community at large. We have and have had a problem in our schools for many years with children who don't or can't perform up to expectations. This dissonance , caused by a multitude of reasons both psychological, physical and financial , leads to a painful path for these children and their families. Boys and girls, alone and in groups, act out in ways that harm themselves AND OUR COMMUNITY. We should not descend into finger-pointing - we must responsibly find creative alternatives and preventive measures that account for our childrens' differences. Perhaps this case will finally prod us into responsible action.

very pedantic!

and if you want to submit an amicus curiae (sp?) brief as a "friend of the court" on behalf of Klal Yisroel, get permission from the entire klal Yisroel allowing you to speak for them and take it to court.

otherwise, sit down and shut up.

54

 Jul 09, 2015 at 09:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
yonasonw Says:

This is not my area of expertise, but I wonder if constitutional due process might not creep in as an issue, to the extent that the school is serving in the place of public schools, carrying out a statutorily mandated public function.

That said, whatever the answer is there...the standard of care and duty to the child and parents owed by the school, before it can be allowed to substantiate publicly an unconfirmed allegation of misconduct, would get you generally to the same place: a fair hearing on the alleged facts presented by the Bais Yaakov as justification for its actions.

you've made clear in your first sentence that this is not your area of knowledge.

so why do you continue to talk?

55

 Jul 09, 2015 at 09:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #37  
yonasonw Says:

He wasn't asking for the proof personally, silly...I read him as merely saying the obvious...a yeshiva should have credible evidence before it acts as did this Bais Yaakov.

well, sorry, silly, YOU read him wrong, all of the rest of us understood what that yenta meant.

56

 Jul 09, 2015 at 09:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Once I heard about this story I registered my daughter there for next year. Why should my daughter go to a school where there are troubled kids in her class? Its about time a school had a back bone and removed these troubled kids before they could do damage to other kids in their class.

I personally don't know Mrs Oratz, but any school that puts kids ahead of dollar signs is a school I want my kids attending.

57

 Jul 09, 2015 at 09:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Pops Says:

Was the boy expelled from his yeshiva?

If every yeshiva bochers secret Internet life was revealed our yeshivas WOULD BE ALMOST EMPTY!

58

 Jul 09, 2015 at 10:25 PM Just Wondering.... Says:

If everyone who trashed Mrs Oratz on the original post will now come forth an apologize to her?

59

 Jul 09, 2015 at 10:37 PM dick613 Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

Once I heard about this story I registered my daughter there for next year. Why should my daughter go to a school where there are troubled kids in her class? Its about time a school had a back bone and removed these troubled kids before they could do damage to other kids in their class.

I personally don't know Mrs Oratz, but any school that puts kids ahead of dollar signs is a school I want my kids attending.

It would be pretty funny if your child was expelled.

60

 Jul 09, 2015 at 10:40 PM Insider Says:

Among the many issues discussed here, it seems that much attention is given to a supposed picture that was allegedly sent by the girl to the boy. Since the supposed picture was erased, there is no picture, period. On top of that, anybody semi-adept at using Photoshop programs can easily compose an inappropriate pictures of Mrs. Oratz, before and after she was married, together with other persons in inappropriate situations, and have the pictures sent to all the parents of the school. Flyers containing the pictures could easily be dropped off in the streets around the school, around her home, and around the Shul where she davens. Mrs. Oratz will always have the public opportunity, in court and elsewhere, to definitively prove that the picture is not really her (she has a mole in an unmentionable area) and that, of course, she would never have had such a picture taken of her. Of course, many casual observers may not accept her protestations and they will legitimately demand that she be dismissed and put out on the street. No one wants such a person in a position of responsibility in a religious girls school. Not even Judge Reyes would defend her.

61

 Jul 09, 2015 at 11:26 PM Speaksoftly Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

very pedantic!

and if you want to submit an amicus curiae (sp?) brief as a "friend of the court" on behalf of Klal Yisroel, get permission from the entire klal Yisroel allowing you to speak for them and take it to court.

otherwise, sit down and shut up.

Your use of language bespeaks your temperament. I don't recall Pinchas asking "permission"before acting to restore shalom.All it really takes is a genuine desire to engage on the relevant issues, not merely venting."Three weeks"mean anything anymore?

62

 Jul 09, 2015 at 11:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

If every yeshiva bochers secret Internet life was revealed our yeshivas WOULD BE ALMOST EMPTY!

Resting comfortably in my anonymity, I modify your statement just a wee bit. If every Rosh Yeshiva, Magid Shiur, and Rebbe's secret internet life was revealed, our yeshivos would be almost empty (a bit exaggerated for the impact, but far greater than anyone would expect from klai kodesh)! The hanhala is no less prone to having these issues, quite secret. I am saying this from experience.

63

 Jul 10, 2015 at 01:14 AM A Says:

Reply to #46  
Butterfly Says:

To #38 Can you prove that the girl sent the picture? That is all I ask!!

Why do you care if she sent it or not? It's not your business and not even relevant to the problem here, that's a different discussion. The heinous part of this whole topic is that the school acted without knowing, they deserve to be sued by the girl's family and raked over the coals by the community.

64

 Jul 10, 2015 at 01:24 AM ayoyo Says:

There is a well known tale of a talmud in Mirrer Yeshiva that didn't behave properly Some one went to Reb Shmuel Birnbaum ZT'L and asked to have the boy removed from the yeshiva. Reb Shmuel said'' you should fast 40 days just for asking such a question.'' later that boy became a good student above others.

65

 Jul 10, 2015 at 01:24 AM rebezin Says:

thanks to the rabbeim and yeshivas who put our son on the street he is still there and there is no mechila and no going back there are so many fabulous ways that our mechanchim can handle these situations this is happening for a reason, so we should learn , where are the therapists where are the gedolei yisroel to help out who did the yeshiva turn to to help this precious neshama, how many more do we have to lose

66

 Jul 10, 2015 at 02:51 AM Fathousewife Says:

You know what the saddest part is? That this story is so believable. I'm not in the least bit shocked by this.

67

 Jul 10, 2015 at 03:00 AM Fathousewife Says:

An observation to the LBY backers: has it occurred to any of you that these are children we are discussing imperfect unfinished impulsive beings trying to make sense out of themselves and the world around them. Children come to school to be molded and formed and helped. To dismiss and toss the "troubled" girls is a shame for if you do your job you may find you have helped to develop a productive member of society and an Ehrlich bas yisrael

68

 Jul 10, 2015 at 03:17 AM Machon Menucha Principal Says:

Obviously, I don't know any more than I read here, so I can't comment on what might or might not have truly happened re any photo, or what transpired with this young lady before. However, I find it disturbing that an unsubstantiated, anonymous complaint seemingly resulted in expelling a child.

There are many girls out there who just don't fit the mold of the school. Not all (& I should know!) are "problems." Our students have chosen to come to our school in Jerusalem (from chutz l'aaretz as well) because we take a different approach to chinuch. We build a box around the girls, we don't try to squeeze them into ours. We encourage creativity (arts, drama etc) and make ALL learning come alive. Our teachers do not read out of a textbook - their enthusiastic, hands-on approach and small classes help every girl reach her potential.

I don't know if a lawsuit is the way to go, but I sympathize with the parents' dilemma. They need the "right" school for GS. I urge them to investigate schools that are sensitive to the needs of the child. If a girl is going OTD, I recommend Telamim in Jerusalem - it is remarkable! You can learn about Machon Menucha at www.mmgirls.org. Hatzlacha!

69

 Jul 10, 2015 at 07:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
School is right Says:

I have no problem with what the school did. If this girl was causing trouble and bring down the class or the school name they have every right to expel her. They don't need cause, this is like employment at will or going to a sporting event where they could expel you at any moment without cause.

That comment is murderous. No yeshiva has this right. May such yeshivos cease to exist. They are a plague on Klal Yisroel. The mission of yeshivos is to insure that each and every Jewish child be raised with a wholesome Torah set of values. The "school name" is a purely selfish cause, and it is absolutely against Ratzon Hashem. May such schools never open, and those that place their "name" before the welfare of a Jewish child should close forever. What about Kavod Hashem? What about the tafkid to bring nachas to HKB"H from His children? "Without cause"? Sorry, but that is kefira. We suffered two churbanos because of such distorted values. Shame on you!

70

 Jul 10, 2015 at 07:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

Once I heard about this story I registered my daughter there for next year. Why should my daughter go to a school where there are troubled kids in her class? Its about time a school had a back bone and removed these troubled kids before they could do damage to other kids in their class.

I personally don't know Mrs Oratz, but any school that puts kids ahead of dollar signs is a school I want my kids attending.

Just wait for this hanhala to use the same irresponsible behavior on your child. Your tune will change quite quickly.

71

 Jul 10, 2015 at 08:41 AM Raphael_Kaufman Says:

Reply to #58  
Just Wondering.... Says:

If everyone who trashed Mrs Oratz on the original post will now come forth an apologize to her?

What? Apologize for being right?

72

 Jul 10, 2015 at 08:53 AM justdoit Says:

I wouldn't be surprised if all these comments are posted by the parents MS and GS themselves or from parents who when called by the school regarding issues with their son or daughter thought that there was something more important for them to do then listen.. Only when the fire starts do they wake up. I for one cant wait until 2 years from now to register my daughter in LBY

73

 Jul 10, 2015 at 09:16 AM Yerachmiel Says:

Reply to #25  
WolfishMusings Says:

Do they *have to* follow due process? No, they don't have to. But if they expel a student *and* defame her in email to others without any investigation and without proper evidence, then it shows that they are highly negligent regarding any damage that may result.

The Wolf

the Wolf is right. They defamed the girl publicly. Everyone has the right to sue for that.

and per another comment, they are not in arcaos. The school refused to go to beis din and a beis din then authorized the civil suit.

74

 Jul 10, 2015 at 09:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
5TResident Says:

Whatever happened to Dina D'malchusa Dina?

Ahhhh, the right question from the right area. Who else would have thought of that one? 5T: a Jewish path unto themselves.

75

 Jul 10, 2015 at 10:08 AM Speaksoftly Says:

Reply to #68  
Machon Menucha Principal Says:

Obviously, I don't know any more than I read here, so I can't comment on what might or might not have truly happened re any photo, or what transpired with this young lady before. However, I find it disturbing that an unsubstantiated, anonymous complaint seemingly resulted in expelling a child.

There are many girls out there who just don't fit the mold of the school. Not all (& I should know!) are "problems." Our students have chosen to come to our school in Jerusalem (from chutz l'aaretz as well) because we take a different approach to chinuch. We build a box around the girls, we don't try to squeeze them into ours. We encourage creativity (arts, drama etc) and make ALL learning come alive. Our teachers do not read out of a textbook - their enthusiastic, hands-on approach and small classes help every girl reach her potential.

I don't know if a lawsuit is the way to go, but I sympathize with the parents' dilemma. They need the "right" school for GS. I urge them to investigate schools that are sensitive to the needs of the child. If a girl is going OTD, I recommend Telamim in Jerusalem - it is remarkable! You can learn about Machon Menucha at www.mmgirls.org. Hatzlacha!

Thank you for the empathy you display in your brief comments. Building an inclusive "box" around all our children would seem to be the imperative that should inform all our yeshivas and schools.
I respectfully ask all those who are touched by this case to act. The letters on this site clearly demonstrate the depths of the pain, disappointment and frustration so many experience or have experienced within our schools. This includes school faculty who are torn between their responsibilities to the individual needs of students and those of the collective student body.
Action, however is not complaining or deriding the motivations of those who dedicate their lives to chinuch. Instead we must find a way to help them build a better SYSTEM of chinuch . Capitalism works, while socialism's ideal awaits Moshiach iyh bekoreiv. If we truly care about all our children, we must find a way to establish educational qualifications, realistic curriculum guidelines incorporating Midos as per Chazal, and the financial stability for our mosdos.
There is much more that needs to be done - but first we must care for those who are suffering by investigating the mistakes made and not repeating them.

76

 Jul 10, 2015 at 10:08 AM Chumash/Rashi Says:

Reply to #61  
Speaksoftly Says:

Your use of language bespeaks your temperament. I don't recall Pinchas asking "permission"before acting to restore shalom.All it really takes is a genuine desire to engage on the relevant issues, not merely venting."Three weeks"mean anything anymore?

"... I don't recall Pinchas asking "permission" before acting to restore shalom ..."
Obviously, you've never learned Sanhedrin 82A:
המה בוכים פתח אהל מועד וכתיב וירא פנחס בן אלעזר מה ראה אמר רב ראה מעשה ונזכר הלכה אמר לו אחי אבי אבא לא כך לימדתני ברדתך מהר סיני הבועל את כותית קנאין פוגעין בו אמר לו קריינא דאיגרתא איהו ליהוי פרוונקא

It's also evident that you did not do Shnayim Mikra V'echad Targum last week.
Please see Rashi on B'midbar 24:7 which quotes the G'mara above.

77

 Jul 10, 2015 at 10:25 AM BlackWolf Says:

I know that VIN doesn't like to post links. But hopefully they'll make an exception.

In the merit of Shalom, Shabbos, and Klal Yisrael, everyone who has been posting here needs to listen to this story told by Shlomo Carlebach and spend Shabbos meditating on the deep meaning. https://youtu.be/vvpB6Pput4M

78

 Jul 10, 2015 at 10:40 AM BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Okay. I do not know these details, but I know that there are certain children that should not nor cannot be in private Bais Yaakov or similar school because of behavioral issues. One bad student can literally bring down the whole class to her level. The misbehaving student is looked at as a "cool" rebel and all the other girls will try to follow her lead. I have seen it happen. At some point, the school has to put its foot down and expel the student or tell them not to return the next year. And that almost always solves the problem. It does not have to be documented to know that a student is a bad influence on the class. It is usually very clear. Unfortunately, the needs of the many sometimes outweigh the needs of the few. Their are many options for on line schooling nowadays, and also for on line limudei kodesh education as well. Not a great option, but how can you sacrifice a whole class for one bad influence student? I feel for every child that cannot get a "normal" Jewish education, but other options need to be looked at such as on-line or private tutoring.

79

 Jul 10, 2015 at 10:45 AM Disillusioned Says:

I had a son in high school who simply didn't see eye to eye with the new Rosh yeshiva. Not that he did anything wrong, it was more of a personality difference. The Rosh Yeshiva felt that was enough of a reason to kick my son out of yeshiva after the year was over and to make matters worse, when I finally found a yeshiva that would take him(As most won't take somebody who was thrown out), he called the yeshiva not to take him. When I confronted him ,his answer was ,I'm doing this על פי דעת תורה. Still today he thinks there is nothing wrong throwing a bachur out on street if he doesn't conform to his expectations. He considers his yeshiva as a private business .

80

 Jul 10, 2015 at 10:46 AM Questioneverything Says:

The educators have no education. They don't have the tools to be mechanich a normal child much less a child with so called issues.
This particular school is a for profit entity will no oversight by daas torah.
The administrator/director was a real estate operator who thought a girls school would be profitable.
Shame on them for expelling a Jewish child.
Shame on us for allowing this to happen .

81

 Jul 10, 2015 at 11:18 AM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

you've made clear in your first sentence that this is not your area of knowledge.

so why do you continue to talk?

I admit it's not my area of expertise...which is more than the typical VIN blogger would ever do...but I do have knowledge of the constitutional principles, and in my own area of legal expertise work through issues related to procedural due process all the time. Is that ok with you?

82

 Jul 10, 2015 at 11:12 AM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

I assume that your comment was meant sarcastically, as self-righteous yeshiva management who acted without seeing any evidence and on the testimony of an anonymous complainant is as far from Da'as Torah as you can get.

Yup - sarcasm driven by disappointment, and by a deepening disillusionment at the level to which die velt has fallen.

Absolutely every couple I know who moved to either Monsey or Lakewood has expressed some level of regret for doing so, because of the "yeshiva politics" and threats to kick out kids for all sorts of reasons unrelated to them or their education. "You support that cause...eat at that restaurant...admit to having seen TV...send Kid B to that school...why then, I'm gonna throw your Kid A out of my yeshiva" It all just stinks.

Not to mention the totally inadequate secular education our own kids got at prestigious Brooklyn Bais Yaakovs - and their rebbeim telling us at "Option Night" that girls should not work and need not be educated to work. It's all crap.

83

 Jul 10, 2015 at 12:32 PM Speaksoftly Says:

Reply to #76  
Chumash/Rashi Says:

"... I don't recall Pinchas asking "permission" before acting to restore shalom ..."
Obviously, you've never learned Sanhedrin 82A:
המה בוכים פתח אהל מועד וכתיב וירא פנחס בן אלעזר מה ראה אמר רב ראה מעשה ונזכר הלכה אמר לו אחי אבי אבא לא כך לימדתני ברדתך מהר סיני הבועל את כותית קנאין פוגעין בו אמר לו קריינא דאיגרתא איהו ליהוי פרוונקא

It's also evident that you did not do Shnayim Mikra V'echad Targum last week.
Please see Rashi on B'midbar 24:7 which quotes the G'mara above.

Thank you for buttressing my point - no one should act without consulting daas Torah and our Gedolim. Neither should we acquiesce to an obvious injustice. Pinchas spoke up when halacha was not remembered and a chillul H-shem was being perpetrated. We should be so sensitive today.
So what might be obvious to you, might not actually be so. Sometimes Chumash/Rashi needs meforshim.

84

 Jul 10, 2015 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Okay. I do not know these details, but I know that there are certain children that should not nor cannot be in private Bais Yaakov or similar school because of behavioral issues. One bad student can literally bring down the whole class to her level. The misbehaving student is looked at as a "cool" rebel and all the other girls will try to follow her lead. I have seen it happen. At some point, the school has to put its foot down and expel the student or tell them not to return the next year. And that almost always solves the problem. It does not have to be documented to know that a student is a bad influence on the class. It is usually very clear. Unfortunately, the needs of the many sometimes outweigh the needs of the few. Their are many options for on line schooling nowadays, and also for on line limudei kodesh education as well. Not a great option, but how can you sacrifice a whole class for one bad influence student? I feel for every child that cannot get a "normal" Jewish education, but other options need to be looked at such as on-line or private tutoring.

If you paid any attention to the reported facts of this case (aside from some insightful comments), you might actually understand. The problem is that you describe a situation that occurs a small percentage of the time, and is based on the concept of "rodef". It is one of the most abused concepts by yeshivos, and is responsible for many hundreds who have left Yiddishkeit, of whom many never return or have Jewish children.

For starters, do we really know if the photo issue really happened? You can ask yourself the rest of the questions.

85

 Jul 10, 2015 at 12:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Disillusioned Says:

I had a son in high school who simply didn't see eye to eye with the new Rosh yeshiva. Not that he did anything wrong, it was more of a personality difference. The Rosh Yeshiva felt that was enough of a reason to kick my son out of yeshiva after the year was over and to make matters worse, when I finally found a yeshiva that would take him(As most won't take somebody who was thrown out), he called the yeshiva not to take him. When I confronted him ,his answer was ,I'm doing this על פי דעת תורה. Still today he thinks there is nothing wrong throwing a bachur out on street if he doesn't conform to his expectations. He considers his yeshiva as a private business .

What a disgrace. If there really was "daas Torah", he would tell you who it was, not the canned answer "daas Torah". Furthermore, if there really was "daas Torah", that individual would have needed to hear both sides of the story before reaching a conclusion. Since that did not happen, this Rosh Yeshiva is completely undeserving of any form of kavod. May he, and all like him be somehow removed from positions in which they can damage our precious children. He is a rotzeyach.

86

 Jul 10, 2015 at 01:32 PM Speaksoftly Says:

Reply to #76  
Chumash/Rashi Says:

"... I don't recall Pinchas asking "permission" before acting to restore shalom ..."
Obviously, you've never learned Sanhedrin 82A:
המה בוכים פתח אהל מועד וכתיב וירא פנחס בן אלעזר מה ראה אמר רב ראה מעשה ונזכר הלכה אמר לו אחי אבי אבא לא כך לימדתני ברדתך מהר סיני הבועל את כותית קנאין פוגעין בו אמר לו קריינא דאיגרתא איהו ליהוי פרוונקא

It's also evident that you did not do Shnayim Mikra V'echad Targum last week.
Please see Rashi on B'midbar 24:7 which quotes the G'mara above.

Please finish the gemara's statement:
kol makom sheyesh chillul H-shem, ayn cholkin kovod le'rav. Moshe Rabbeinu is our teacher forever BECAUSE he was not embarrassed to say that Pinchas was correct and thus was empowered to act without permission. It is instructive however that Pinchas did seek it.
Disdain for opinions other than your own is exactly what has enraged other posters.Cannot you hear their pain and hep find a positive way out of this morass?

87

 Jul 10, 2015 at 01:53 PM optimist_sigh Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

They did try to bring them to Bais Din first. Lev refused to appear at Bais Din. Then they got permission to sue.

88

 Jul 10, 2015 at 02:07 PM optimist_sigh Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

Once I heard about this story I registered my daughter there for next year. Why should my daughter go to a school where there are troubled kids in her class? Its about time a school had a back bone and removed these troubled kids before they could do damage to other kids in their class.

I personally don't know Mrs Oratz, but any school that puts kids ahead of dollar signs is a school I want my kids attending.

I truly hope this is a joke. From people in the school, I have heard that the issue was not that the girl was troubled, but that she had an IEP, and Lev has been systematically trying to shed girls with IEPs. As a (formerly) warm school with low academic standards, it attracted girls with learning disabilities. When the school wanted to shed its image as a "special" school, it began to harass girls with P3s and other services. I seriously hope you don't think that this episode shows a concern for the students. Very much the opposite. And don't think your daughter is such a lamb, they'll never target her. Perfect lambs are also targets. I would also be much more worried about the damage cruel and/or hypocritical teachers and administrators can inflict than the influence of other students.

89

 Jul 10, 2015 at 02:14 PM optimist_sigh Says:

Reply to #72  
justdoit Says:

I wouldn't be surprised if all these comments are posted by the parents MS and GS themselves or from parents who when called by the school regarding issues with their son or daughter thought that there was something more important for them to do then listen.. Only when the fire starts do they wake up. I for one cant wait until 2 years from now to register my daughter in LBY

If you want the people who are educating your daughter to embody the ideals that they are allegedly teaching, I strongly suggest you look hard for another school.

90

 Jul 10, 2015 at 02:29 PM Proudjew613 Says:

Reply to #1  
yonasonw Says:

How dare the Court question Das Torah!

I am sure that the Beis Yaakov's Va'ad HaChinuch made absolutely sure that no possible injustice could have been done to this scoundrel of a student. Why...if we don't stand up to this anti-Semitic intrusion...the next thing they'll do is question why Lakewood girls have such a hard time getting into high school every year.

Tsk tsk tsk!

No matter how small a person feels there is always hope that they can grow to unimaginable levels. Proof of this is all around us... A baby is born a tiny helpless thing and yet it grows and grows, despite how small it originally was. A plant grows from a tiny tiny seed. A plant needs nourishment from other sources to grow. It needs sun and water. Every Jew already has the sun (Hashem) but the water.. Is in our hands to give them. Ahavat Yisrael, free love to EVERY SINGLE JEW is so vital for their growth. When they grow, we grow. When they cry, we cry. A plant needs a place to grow. Open up a place in your heart and mind for every Jew. Be the reason they grow, not fall.

91

 Jul 10, 2015 at 02:39 PM Proudjew613 Says:

Reply to #1  
yonasonw Says:

How dare the Court question Das Torah!

I am sure that the Beis Yaakov's Va'ad HaChinuch made absolutely sure that no possible injustice could have been done to this scoundrel of a student. Why...if we don't stand up to this anti-Semitic intrusion...the next thing they'll do is question why Lakewood girls have such a hard time getting into high school every year.

Tsk tsk tsk!

Whatever das torah was used by this school i have no clue and neither do YOU. but what i do know is that the torah one thousand percent states that we must have love and care for other yidden as if they were ourselves. When you teach a child he becomes like your son and you should treat them accordingly. Every single Jew needs love. There is no time to put our hands up and give up on our next generation of Jews. To kick people out of our unliked, super small community and in the end, religion, is down right stupid. The kids who need the help should be the ones staying in the schools.
And it should be questioned why we are so picky with out own FAMILY. Every Jew was commanded at Har Sinai 613 Mitzvot!!! Hashem doesnt give us what we cant handle! obviously Hashem gives us the option and ability. Sometimes.. you never know.. you could be on a mission from HAshem to use your bechira to be the savior of this person and keep them close to Hahem. Hashem hasnt given up on us, even though we served avodah zara literally at the foot of the holiest of holy places. He gives us chances. We are meant to act in the ways of Hashem. To mimic Hashem. Every single YID is vital and MATTERS

92

 Jul 10, 2015 at 04:56 PM in2ub8 Says:

Reply to #1  
yonasonw Says:

How dare the Court question Das Torah!

I am sure that the Beis Yaakov's Va'ad HaChinuch made absolutely sure that no possible injustice could have been done to this scoundrel of a student. Why...if we don't stand up to this anti-Semitic intrusion...the next thing they'll do is question why Lakewood girls have such a hard time getting into high school every year.

Tsk tsk tsk!

To #1
How dare the court question? Seriously?? How can you possibly be so sure that they looked into it properly? What a naive statement. Just because they run a yeshiva (read: business)?? They are not infallible and not always right just because they run a yeshiva.
A better question might be, how do YOU dare to accise the girl of being a scoundrel? Did you investigate any allegations yourself? The only anti semetism here is you hating against your own people and pre judging a young schoolgirl without any facts. Shame on you!

93

 Jul 10, 2015 at 06:01 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #91  
Proudjew613 Says:

Whatever das torah was used by this school i have no clue and neither do YOU. but what i do know is that the torah one thousand percent states that we must have love and care for other yidden as if they were ourselves. When you teach a child he becomes like your son and you should treat them accordingly. Every single Jew needs love. There is no time to put our hands up and give up on our next generation of Jews. To kick people out of our unliked, super small community and in the end, religion, is down right stupid. The kids who need the help should be the ones staying in the schools.
And it should be questioned why we are so picky with out own FAMILY. Every Jew was commanded at Har Sinai 613 Mitzvot!!! Hashem doesnt give us what we cant handle! obviously Hashem gives us the option and ability. Sometimes.. you never know.. you could be on a mission from HAshem to use your bechira to be the savior of this person and keep them close to Hahem. Hashem hasnt given up on us, even though we served avodah zara literally at the foot of the holiest of holy places. He gives us chances. We are meant to act in the ways of Hashem. To mimic Hashem. Every single YID is vital and MATTERS

Please read comments 49 and 82 my friend...I'm with you. Have a Good Shabbos

94

 Jul 10, 2015 at 06:32 PM Disillusioned Says:

Reply to #85  
Anonymous Says:

What a disgrace. If there really was "daas Torah", he would tell you who it was, not the canned answer "daas Torah". Furthermore, if there really was "daas Torah", that individual would have needed to hear both sides of the story before reaching a conclusion. Since that did not happen, this Rosh Yeshiva is completely undeserving of any form of kavod. May he, and all like him be somehow removed from positions in which they can damage our precious children. He is a rotzeyach.

Since he inherited his position and owns the place, nobody can tell him anything. Anything that interfers with his business is a reason to be thrown out. He wouldn't have any bochrim in his Yeshiva except that the rebbeim are very good(but they won't open up their mouth against him for fear of losing their jobs). BH there are other good mosdos in town to send to.
PS I don't believe one had daas Torah without knowing shas and shulchan aruch, and he is far from either.

95

 Jul 10, 2015 at 07:26 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #92  
in2ub8 Says:

To #1
How dare the court question? Seriously?? How can you possibly be so sure that they looked into it properly? What a naive statement. Just because they run a yeshiva (read: business)?? They are not infallible and not always right just because they run a yeshiva.
A better question might be, how do YOU dare to accise the girl of being a scoundrel? Did you investigate any allegations yourself? The only anti semetism here is you hating against your own people and pre judging a young schoolgirl without any facts. Shame on you!

Love it :-)

96

 Jul 10, 2015 at 07:27 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #92  
in2ub8 Says:

To #1
How dare the court question? Seriously?? How can you possibly be so sure that they looked into it properly? What a naive statement. Just because they run a yeshiva (read: business)?? They are not infallible and not always right just because they run a yeshiva.
A better question might be, how do YOU dare to accise the girl of being a scoundrel? Did you investigate any allegations yourself? The only anti semetism here is you hating against your own people and pre judging a young schoolgirl without any facts. Shame on you!

Just in case you're serious...read comment 93.

97

 Jul 11, 2015 at 10:33 PM Yonisonw/Bewhiskered the bigots Says:

Reply to #1  
yonasonw Says:

How dare the Court question Das Torah!

I am sure that the Beis Yaakov's Va'ad HaChinuch made absolutely sure that no possible injustice could have been done to this scoundrel of a student. Why...if we don't stand up to this anti-Semitic intrusion...the next thing they'll do is question why Lakewood girls have such a hard time getting into high school every year.

Tsk tsk tsk!

Yes, yonosonw (and Bewhiskered), aren't these "HEIMISHE BIGOTS" something?

98

 Jul 11, 2015 at 10:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
outraged Says:

While I agree that this should have been brought to Bais Din, i feel for the parents
and the girl. Schools and the administrations could not care less about the individual student. These schools are merely a business to them. How dare they expel a girl for an unseen and unsubstantiated claim? this is not the kind of thing she can recover from without scars. Many young kids make mistakes. Nobodys perfect, as demonstrated by children all over the world, even from the BEST HOMES

Didn't you read the article? This was just the final straw. She had made trouble and broken the rules of the school numerous times before,,

99

 Jul 12, 2015 at 12:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Speaksoftly Says:

Your use of language bespeaks your temperament. I don't recall Pinchas asking "permission"before acting to restore shalom.All it really takes is a genuine desire to engage on the relevant issues, not merely venting."Three weeks"mean anything anymore?

your incorrect use of language is dwarfed by your apparent ignorance of the events you quote.

100

 Jul 12, 2015 at 12:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
yonasonw Says:

I admit it's not my area of expertise...which is more than the typical VIN blogger would ever do...but I do have knowledge of the constitutional principles, and in my own area of legal expertise work through issues related to procedural due process all the time. Is that ok with you?

no, actually it's NOT okay with me, since your conclusions demonstrate your lack of familiarity with both secular law and the issues being discussed here.

101

 Jul 12, 2015 at 12:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Okay. I do not know these details, but I know that there are certain children that should not nor cannot be in private Bais Yaakov or similar school because of behavioral issues. One bad student can literally bring down the whole class to her level. The misbehaving student is looked at as a "cool" rebel and all the other girls will try to follow her lead. I have seen it happen. At some point, the school has to put its foot down and expel the student or tell them not to return the next year. And that almost always solves the problem. It does not have to be documented to know that a student is a bad influence on the class. It is usually very clear. Unfortunately, the needs of the many sometimes outweigh the needs of the few. Their are many options for on line schooling nowadays, and also for on line limudei kodesh education as well. Not a great option, but how can you sacrifice a whole class for one bad influence student? I feel for every child that cannot get a "normal" Jewish education, but other options need to be looked at such as on-line or private tutoring.

you're an am oretz concluding that that it does not have to be proven (not "documented") to know that a student is a bad influence.

you're finding the girl guilty with no proof or reason other than a phone call frpom a coward who refused to even identify herself.

102

 Jul 12, 2015 at 03:05 AM Chumash/Rashi Says:

Reply to #86  
Speaksoftly Says:

Please finish the gemara's statement:
kol makom sheyesh chillul H-shem, ayn cholkin kovod le'rav. Moshe Rabbeinu is our teacher forever BECAUSE he was not embarrassed to say that Pinchas was correct and thus was empowered to act without permission. It is instructive however that Pinchas did seek it.
Disdain for opinions other than your own is exactly what has enraged other posters.Cannot you hear their pain and hep find a positive way out of this morass?

"... Disdain for opinions other than your own is exactly what has enraged other posters.Cannot you hear their pain and hep find a positive way out of this morass? ” ..."
All I said was that Pinchas asked permission and proved it, thereby rebutting a previous poster who claimed that Pinchas did not ask permission. It's not an opinion, it's fact.

I don't think I showed disdain by what I said. If you understood it as that, please accept my apology. That was not my intention, especially during the 3 weeks when we are supposed to be more careful regarding Bein Adam LaChaveiro.

103

 Jul 12, 2015 at 08:47 AM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #100  
Anonymous Says:

no, actually it's NOT okay with me, since your conclusions demonstrate your lack of familiarity with both secular law and the issues being discussed here.

I'll think of you the next time I win a due process case at the appellate level.

104

 Jul 12, 2015 at 07:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #103  
yonasonw Says:

I'll think of you the next time I win a due process case at the appellate level.

wow, what wishful thinking! I should live so long!

If you're a lawyer, you're not a very good one.

oh, and firstly, this is not a "due process" case. Secondly, you'd have to lose your case quite a few times before it would get to the appellate level, if there would be a basis to even had it heard there.

But I guess you knew that, being a lawyer and all...

105

 Jul 12, 2015 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #102  
Chumash/Rashi Says:

"... Disdain for opinions other than your own is exactly what has enraged other posters.Cannot you hear their pain and hep find a positive way out of this morass? ” ..."
All I said was that Pinchas asked permission and proved it, thereby rebutting a previous poster who claimed that Pinchas did not ask permission. It's not an opinion, it's fact.

I don't think I showed disdain by what I said. If you understood it as that, please accept my apology. That was not my intention, especially during the 3 weeks when we are supposed to be more careful regarding Bein Adam LaChaveiro.

then perhaps you should be a little more humble than calling yourself Chumash and Rashi.

Pretty big shoes to fill, and fairly arrogant of you to imply that you speak for either

106

 Jul 12, 2015 at 07:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #90  
Proudjew613 Says:

No matter how small a person feels there is always hope that they can grow to unimaginable levels. Proof of this is all around us... A baby is born a tiny helpless thing and yet it grows and grows, despite how small it originally was. A plant grows from a tiny tiny seed. A plant needs nourishment from other sources to grow. It needs sun and water. Every Jew already has the sun (Hashem) but the water.. Is in our hands to give them. Ahavat Yisrael, free love to EVERY SINGLE JEW is so vital for their growth. When they grow, we grow. When they cry, we cry. A plant needs a place to grow. Open up a place in your heart and mind for every Jew. Be the reason they grow, not fall.

do you take out a guitar and sing "Kumbaya" after each time you reread your oh-so-inspirational comment?

Oh, and "free love to EVERY SINGLE JEW" doesn't mean what you think it does. You must be very young.

107

 Jul 12, 2015 at 07:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
yonasonw Says:

I admit it's not my area of expertise...which is more than the typical VIN blogger would ever do...but I do have knowledge of the constitutional principles, and in my own area of legal expertise work through issues related to procedural due process all the time. Is that ok with you?

YOW, you're hilarious. "the constitutional principles"? Seriously? "issues related to procedural due process all the time"? really? name a few? come on, just for me! I haven't laughed hard enough yet at the posers and imbeciles like you trying to justify what this poor excuse for a yeshiva did.

108

 Jul 12, 2015 at 07:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #103  
yonasonw Says:

I'll think of you the next time I win a due process case at the appellate level.

good comment! And if you're lucky enough to have your appeal heard before me, I'll rule for you and make the other justices do the same, don't worry!

109

 Jul 13, 2015 at 12:52 AM Speaksoftly Says:

Reply to #102  
Chumash/Rashi Says:

"... Disdain for opinions other than your own is exactly what has enraged other posters.Cannot you hear their pain and hep find a positive way out of this morass? ” ..."
All I said was that Pinchas asked permission and proved it, thereby rebutting a previous poster who claimed that Pinchas did not ask permission. It's not an opinion, it's fact.

I don't think I showed disdain by what I said. If you understood it as that, please accept my apology. That was not my intention, especially during the 3 weeks when we are supposed to be more careful regarding Bein Adam LaChaveiro.

Apology accepted but more importantly, you missed the point of the response - you quoted only one man de'omar in the gemara in Sanhedrin.Shmuel was mechalek on Rav- that Pinchas did NOT need to ask permission in a case of chillul H-Shem before acting in a corrective manner. I was merely pointing out the need to communally act in a responsible fashion to address the serious and painful issues raised by this case.It is way past time to admit that there is a significant problem impacting our children and grandchildren that must be resolved. Let us find a way to work together - not naively, but pragmatically. Where there is will, a way can be found iyh.

110

 Jul 13, 2015 at 09:57 AM Can't Wait Says:

For the school year to start and tell Mrs Oratz to keep her head up and keep on doing the great job she is doing as a M'chanich of young girls.

111

 Jul 13, 2015 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #110  
Can't Wait Says:

For the school year to start and tell Mrs Oratz to keep her head up and keep on doing the great job she is doing as a M'chanich of young girls.

yes, we need a new generations of frum baby machines who don't understand yiddishkeit and live lives of quiet desperation and unquestioning adherence to moronic self-righteous hypocrites, instead of having the values and ethics and joy of being part of the best possible religion on this planet in this lifetime.

you are a very damaged person, willingly sacrificing your children to avodah zorah like the mechanech of this school.

112

 Jul 13, 2015 at 12:12 PM Can't Wait Says:

Reply to #111  
Anonymous Says:

yes, we need a new generations of frum baby machines who don't understand yiddishkeit and live lives of quiet desperation and unquestioning adherence to moronic self-righteous hypocrites, instead of having the values and ethics and joy of being part of the best possible religion on this planet in this lifetime.

you are a very damaged person, willingly sacrificing your children to avodah zorah like the mechanech of this school.

Last time I checked she was the one with the degree in education, not you.

She is a very capable and well respected principal. I happened to hear a lot of praise for her this past Shabbos in our bungalow colony, especially from some former Shulamith parents.

I totally trust her with my children's education. No, she is not perfect, but then again (besides for you) who is?

113

 Jul 13, 2015 at 02:04 PM dick613 Says:

Reply to #110  
Can't Wait Says:

For the school year to start and tell Mrs Oratz to keep her head up and keep on doing the great job she is doing as a M'chanich of young girls.

Until she throws your daughter out.

114

 Jul 13, 2015 at 03:44 PM Can't Wait Says:

Reply to #113  
dick613 Says:

Until she throws your daughter out.

If my daughter gives her a reason to throw her out than how could I be upset at the school?

115

 Jul 15, 2015 at 09:14 AM dick613 Says:

Reply to #114  
Can't Wait Says:

If my daughter gives her a reason to throw her out than how could I be upset at the school?

I will leave them an anonymous tip that your daughter sent my son an inappropriate picture.

116

 Jul 19, 2015 at 05:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
pnimi Says:

Suing in a secular court is against the Shulchan Aruch. There are no 2 ways about it. The family must take their case out of court.

It is clear that her chinch at home is lacking if her parents went to court instead of Bais din. That is why she was troubled.

117

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