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Brooklyn, NY - DOE Promises Investigation Into 39 Brooklyn Yeshivas On Charges Of Providing Subpar Secular Education

Published on: July 29, 2015 11:24 AM
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 FILE - Jewish boys listen to their teacher. REUTERS/Ronen Zvulun/FILE FILE - Jewish boys listen to their teacher. REUTERS/Ronen Zvulun/FILE

Brooklyn, NY - Upon receipt on Monday of a letter signed by 52 members of Brooklyn’s Jewish community charging that an alarming number of local yeshivas are in violation of state education laws by shortchange students on time spent on secular education, officials for the DOE say they will investigate the matter.

THEJEWISHWEEK.com (http://bit.ly/1h4SmkQ) reports that through an email response, DOE spokesman Harry Hatfield wrote, “We take seriously our responsibility to ensure that all students in New York receive an appropriate education, and we will investigate all allegations that are brought to our attention.”

As reported earlier on VIN News, The letter, organized by an Organization called Yaffed signed by former yeshiva students and teachers and current yeshiva parents, claimed that 39 yeshivas in Brooklyn and Queens are failing to meet New York State Education Department guidelines by averaging only 90 minutes of English and math per day, none at all on Fridays.


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1

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:33 AM Ina Says:

It is about time!

2

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:49 AM yankie Says:

Oh boy. Here comes the damage control and c.y.a. All yeshiva principles and head staff get back from the country NOW!!.

3

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:52 AM grandpajoe Says:

Leave it to the Jewish Week to display the negatives of the Hareid comunity

4

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:58 AM yonasonw Says:

At least in NY, maybe things will change.

A couple of years ago I heard a Rav relate the following story...favorably:

A European trained Rosh Yeshiva admonished a bochur, who years later was in Kollel with the Rav, and who was the source of the story. The bochur was carrying his math book close to his chest. The Rosh Yeshiva stopped him in a hallway, and said:

"You carry a Gemora dat vay, a math book you carry like a dead skvirrel."

Sad.

5

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:03 PM cyrano Says:

How about first insuring that the education provided to the public sector is up to par and then worry about whether Yeshivas are providing enough secular education.

You see, if public school students aren't providing education, they will mature into a life of low level crime, violence and substance abuse. Yeshivah students without secular education for the most part evolve into Kollel life. (Oy Gevalt!)

Besides, a paltry sum total of 52 members of the Brooklyn community (out of how many tens of thousands?) are listed in the complaint. Losers, each and every one of them! They are simply justifying their unsuccessful lives on their lack of schooling. I can guarantee that if these complainants had been educated in the public school system, they would still be members of the unemployable community because of their flawed character, not the flawed Yeshivah system.

6

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:03 PM PaulinSaudi Says:

Certainly nothing with the educational authorities inspecting schools. That is sort of what I expect them to do.

7

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:04 PM Anonymous Says:

While I personally have advanced education, and I much favor that our yeshivos provide adequate education, I am quite uncomfortable by this situation. If it was about pushing yeshivos to provide the education, I could be supportive. But I fear the present matter is not "lishmoh". I suspect that there are emotional factors here, and the "gang" is looking to cause as much trouble as possible.

There are many ways to address the problem. I am not sure any of them were investigated or attempted. This is not the first instance in which someone with issues looks to take revenge at the system.

8

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:12 PM Judith Says:

Yeshivas in CH offer even less than that. Some don't offer any secular studies at all.

9

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:27 PM 5TResident Says:

I'm always amazed when I hear children in Boro Park, who were born in America, speak English with the same accent my mother, born in Eastern Europe in 1930, spoke with her entire life.

10

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:31 PM sane Says:

If people were educated, who would make it big?

11

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:37 PM kayboy Says:

Big deal! I went through yeshiva secular education and am earning money and leading a productive life!
Wake up and realize most of the stuff they want to push to be taught has no effect on anything almost anyone out there uses on a daily basis.

12

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:08 PM albroker Says:

this isnt news.

13

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:05 PM judith Says:

Reply to #5  
cyrano Says:

How about first insuring that the education provided to the public sector is up to par and then worry about whether Yeshivas are providing enough secular education.

You see, if public school students aren't providing education, they will mature into a life of low level crime, violence and substance abuse. Yeshivah students without secular education for the most part evolve into Kollel life. (Oy Gevalt!)

Besides, a paltry sum total of 52 members of the Brooklyn community (out of how many tens of thousands?) are listed in the complaint. Losers, each and every one of them! They are simply justifying their unsuccessful lives on their lack of schooling. I can guarantee that if these complainants had been educated in the public school system, they would still be members of the unemployable community because of their flawed character, not the flawed Yeshivah system.

Some people who smoke their whole lives never get cancer, while some never smoke and do get cancer. So should we smoke as much as possible and say it doesn't matter?

14

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:09 PM Anonymous Says:

I went to Yeshiva and I speak a better english than George Soros..

There is a list of about 55 billionairs that dropped out of school.

After all maybe this was their success.

15

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:10 PM judith Says:

Reply to #11  
kayboy Says:

Big deal! I went through yeshiva secular education and am earning money and leading a productive life!
Wake up and realize most of the stuff they want to push to be taught has no effect on anything almost anyone out there uses on a daily basis.

Without food stamps, Medicaid, section 8 etc., most people yeshiva people without secular education would be starving. The high enrollment in these government programs proves this. There is no need to compare with inner city kids. It is an irrelevant discussion.

16

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:14 PM fat36 Says:

In the ratio of how many kids are in yeshivas compared to public schools I think the success rate of the boys coming out of yeshivas is much greater than kids coming out of public schools

17

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:18 PM CantFightStupid Says:

Reply to #2  
yankie Says:

Oh boy. Here comes the damage control and c.y.a. All yeshiva principles and head staff get back from the country NOW!!.

See, if you had more than 90 minutes of education, you would know how to spell principal.

18

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:21 PM fat36 Says:

Funny story I was once on the bus years ago going to Montreal and the customs guy came on the bus and asked one of the boys what is your birthdate he answered ג שבט he kept on asking him and the boy kept on repeating the same thing the boy had no idea that he had an English birthday

19

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:24 PM bennyt Says:

Reply to #2  
yankie Says:

Oh boy. Here comes the damage control and c.y.a. All yeshiva principles and head staff get back from the country NOW!!.

Yankie - You meant "principals" and not "principles." Did you attend one of these yeshivas?

20

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:25 PM Professor Says:

Reply to #5  
cyrano Says:

How about first insuring that the education provided to the public sector is up to par and then worry about whether Yeshivas are providing enough secular education.

You see, if public school students aren't providing education, they will mature into a life of low level crime, violence and substance abuse. Yeshivah students without secular education for the most part evolve into Kollel life. (Oy Gevalt!)

Besides, a paltry sum total of 52 members of the Brooklyn community (out of how many tens of thousands?) are listed in the complaint. Losers, each and every one of them! They are simply justifying their unsuccessful lives on their lack of schooling. I can guarantee that if these complainants had been educated in the public school system, they would still be members of the unemployable community because of their flawed character, not the flawed Yeshivah system.

I agree that what yafeed is doing is just to push a nasty agenda.
The concept of first looking intobthe public school is wrong. As bad as the public school system is, they are following the regulations that are being paid to do.
If the yeshivas take money from the government in order to give education, they need to follow the rules.
My take is, either take money and follow the requirements or don't teach English but don't take money from the government.

21

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:27 PM shanda Says:

Pity this wasnt addressed years ago the boys come out of yeshiva unable
to write a proper sentence, let alone paragraph.

22

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:28 PM PowerUp Says:

Not going into the fact that its mesira to say anything against mosdos that our holy people of the previous generation build with blood and sweat, I had a subpar english education, and I BH earn more money or should I say much more money, then the lawyers who are respresenting me in verious transactions, I sometimes wonder why they spend the best 8 years of their life in collegen by time they get out, they already have a family to feed.

I know countless people, who can't read a contract, they can not read english, yet they do business in the tens of millions, to be successful in business you don't need to know math at all, I long forgot how to solve math problems on paper, you need an intrapreneurial spirit, and for someone like that, education is harmful because the secret of success is to think outside of the box, (do what 98 percent of people are not doing) and in school you only learn conventional thinking.

23

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:35 PM wise man Says:

The ones that signed this letter and the proponents are nothing short of rodfim. What's going to happen now, will be a full fledged look into ALL yeshivas and how secular studies are taught. Be prepared for more hours of חול, for no reason whatsoever.

I am not מקנאה the upcoming גהנים of these chasidishe OYSVORF BUMS who are behind this !!

24

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:37 PM HankM Says:

For once I agree. I work with too many graduates of the yeshiva system who can't write a paragraph and can't operate a computer. Lord knows if they can even read. This is not "good enough"! We are too often taking big dollars to produce mediocre minds, and a mind is a terrible thing to waste! How many girls come out of bais yakov, get married, time to support a husband in kolel and sure enough, she can't get a job because in school they told her computers are evil and books are the work of the satan. Lord help us!

25

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:39 PM HankM Says:

Reply to 16 I believe you are in a fantasy.

26

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
kayboy Says:

Big deal! I went through yeshiva secular education and am earning money and leading a productive life!
Wake up and realize most of the stuff they want to push to be taught has no effect on anything almost anyone out there uses on a daily basis.

Really? One is not eligible for my job without a degree in science or engineering and I use this knowledge on a daily basis. I work in a company in Silicon Valley, where there are hundreds of thousands of people with degrees in science, computer science and engineering, using their knowledge so that you can type your narishkeit into a computer. Just because you and the people you know are managing to make a living while having little secular education does not mean the rest of the world is like that. Who designed and built your car, your radio, your computer, your Shabbos hot water pot, your stove, your doorbell? Wake up- it is the 21st Century and there is no reason to hold back a generation of smart, capable kids who deserve an opportunity to participate in it.

27

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:37 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #5  
cyrano Says:

How about first insuring that the education provided to the public sector is up to par and then worry about whether Yeshivas are providing enough secular education.

You see, if public school students aren't providing education, they will mature into a life of low level crime, violence and substance abuse. Yeshivah students without secular education for the most part evolve into Kollel life. (Oy Gevalt!)

Besides, a paltry sum total of 52 members of the Brooklyn community (out of how many tens of thousands?) are listed in the complaint. Losers, each and every one of them! They are simply justifying their unsuccessful lives on their lack of schooling. I can guarantee that if these complainants had been educated in the public school system, they would still be members of the unemployable community because of their flawed character, not the flawed Yeshivah system.

Beyond dumb...amazing.

28

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Professor Says:

I agree that what yafeed is doing is just to push a nasty agenda.
The concept of first looking intobthe public school is wrong. As bad as the public school system is, they are following the regulations that are being paid to do.
If the yeshivas take money from the government in order to give education, they need to follow the rules.
My take is, either take money and follow the requirements or don't teach English but don't take money from the government.

I disagree regarding not having requirements if one doesn't accept government money. The entire society benefits when all people have a certain level of education. Lack of education breeds lack of opportunity which breeds poverty, illness, crime, depression, and addiction, which affect us all. It should be required that all people take a certain number of courses in English, math, science and history. Not everyone will become a rocket scientist, but so many more will be able to get a decent job to support themselves and their families.

29

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:44 PM The Professor Says:

Reply to #5  
cyrano Says:

How about first insuring that the education provided to the public sector is up to par and then worry about whether Yeshivas are providing enough secular education.

You see, if public school students aren't providing education, they will mature into a life of low level crime, violence and substance abuse. Yeshivah students without secular education for the most part evolve into Kollel life. (Oy Gevalt!)

Besides, a paltry sum total of 52 members of the Brooklyn community (out of how many tens of thousands?) are listed in the complaint. Losers, each and every one of them! They are simply justifying their unsuccessful lives on their lack of schooling. I can guarantee that if these complainants had been educated in the public school system, they would still be members of the unemployable community because of their flawed character, not the flawed Yeshivah system.

Cyrano- enough with your platitudes. I have personal experience trying to teach some of these young men who had the shlimazel of not marrying rich, who then had to scramble to try to get a college education in order to support their families. Unfortunately, your second paragraph is wholly out of touch with reality. The bulk of chassidishe yeshivahs are guilty of regarding limudei chol as being tomei - and then when I get the young men in my college classroom to study economics, finance and management, a significant percentage of them can't do simple percentages or write a cogent paragraph - let alone be able to do time value of money computations or write a research paper on their own. The business world needs ehrliche people who can engage in doing a kiddush HaShem while being fully competent in their fields of expertise. No everyone can be a salesman or a writer of apps. There is no aveirah is knowing mathematics and being able to write proper business English. If you have a problem with this statement - it's your problem.

30

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:45 PM CHANA1 Says:

I don't think they need more secular studies but the minimal time spent on English studies should be done by qualified, motivated teachers and they should be supported by the administration.

31

 Jul 29, 2015 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:

The idea to get them to learn English is good. The way that Mr. Mostel from Yaffed should be dealt with by the Rabbis. Ostracization, G-d willing!!

32

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:02 PM BarryLS1 Says:

Reply to #21  
shanda Says:

Pity this wasnt addressed years ago the boys come out of yeshiva unable
to write a proper sentence, let alone paragraph.

Very true, but it is also true of many public school students as well.

33

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:07 PM Professor Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

I disagree regarding not having requirements if one doesn't accept government money. The entire society benefits when all people have a certain level of education. Lack of education breeds lack of opportunity which breeds poverty, illness, crime, depression, and addiction, which affect us all. It should be required that all people take a certain number of courses in English, math, science and history. Not everyone will become a rocket scientist, but so many more will be able to get a decent job to support themselves and their families.

I agree with everything you said. There is research to prove it.
But, when it comes to culture its a difficult live to cross. Whether you agree with the approach (and I agree that education is important) or not, its what became if the culture and its now a cultural issue.
My issue and initial point is if you believe in what you do, just do it. But don't take money for somthing that has rules and not follow its requirements.

34

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:12 PM kayboy Says:

Reply to #15  
judith Says:

Without food stamps, Medicaid, section 8 etc., most people yeshiva people without secular education would be starving. The high enrollment in these government programs proves this. There is no need to compare with inner city kids. It is an irrelevant discussion.

The number of people on programs has nothing to do with the education, it has to do with cost of living and how much it costs to be a religious Jew.
People I know who have degrees are on programs, while others without a "real" education are quite successful and earned it all without even contemplating college.
How many people, asides for doctors and lawyers, who are earning in the millions can say they are only there because of their degrees and diplomas?

35

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:15 PM kayboy Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

Really? One is not eligible for my job without a degree in science or engineering and I use this knowledge on a daily basis. I work in a company in Silicon Valley, where there are hundreds of thousands of people with degrees in science, computer science and engineering, using their knowledge so that you can type your narishkeit into a computer. Just because you and the people you know are managing to make a living while having little secular education does not mean the rest of the world is like that. Who designed and built your car, your radio, your computer, your Shabbos hot water pot, your stove, your doorbell? Wake up- it is the 21st Century and there is no reason to hold back a generation of smart, capable kids who deserve an opportunity to participate in it.

Just by the way, most jewish products are designed by people who don't have the "education" and "degree" and they just have a "really smart educated engineer" go over it and sign the papers.
We aren't discussing the secular population, we are discussing the frum community, where most successful people never got a "higher education".

36

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:21 PM FALLSBURGER Says:

I just past through East New York, where 99% of the residents receive
free elementary school
free high school
free college
free everything ( that we hard working tax paying people pay for..)
I was amazed by the "success" exhibited in that area....
1) Blocks & blocks of empty stores.
2) Crime through the roof.
3) Guys hanging out 24/7 at the bodegas...

Was very happy to make it back safely to Williamsburg, where we only have 90 minute secular education, but we also BH have:
1) A strong vibrant economy
2) Crime free 99%
3) Chesed Capital of the World

I am happy to be part of the amazing Williamsburg community & if the Jewish Week & their ilk can't comprehend how we ignoramus Chassidim can be so successful, I invite them to come spend some time here & see it themselves & not rely on a few losers

37

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:21 PM Moishell Says:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being literate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting yourself and your family with an honest job. Most of our great rabbis in the past had professions. The Rambam says: "One who makes up his mind to involve himself with Torah and not to work, and to support himself from charity, has profaned God’s Name and brought the Torah into contempt, extinguished the light of religion, brought evil upon himself, and has taken away his life from the World-to-Come..." (Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10).

38

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
The Professor Says:

Cyrano- enough with your platitudes. I have personal experience trying to teach some of these young men who had the shlimazel of not marrying rich, who then had to scramble to try to get a college education in order to support their families. Unfortunately, your second paragraph is wholly out of touch with reality. The bulk of chassidishe yeshivahs are guilty of regarding limudei chol as being tomei - and then when I get the young men in my college classroom to study economics, finance and management, a significant percentage of them can't do simple percentages or write a cogent paragraph - let alone be able to do time value of money computations or write a research paper on their own. The business world needs ehrliche people who can engage in doing a kiddush HaShem while being fully competent in their fields of expertise. No everyone can be a salesman or a writer of apps. There is no aveirah is knowing mathematics and being able to write proper business English. If you have a problem with this statement - it's your problem.

Very well said.

I am posting anonymously for the first time...to protect the innocent.

The problem applies to girls too. I have a daughter who went to a "prestigious" Beis Yaakov..one of the better known ones in Flatbush. She graduated without ever having to produce a paper exhibiting any analytical skills, consistently received top grades for superficial reports of a few pages written in large point font. She received no education in languages (other than Ivris) - none in higher level math, history or social studies...the only bar was to do just enough to pass the Regents.

And then on "Option Night" we were addressed by a Rabbi who explicitly said that woman should not have to work, but "nebuch," in the world we are in they need to know how to teach, to support their learning husbands.

I will forever regret sending her there.

All of secular education is treif...the very idea of Torah Umadda is treif...the whole world outside the dalet amos of the Yeshiva velt is smutz and treif.

Who do they think the professionals will be in their idealized Torah world? It certainly won't be them...they're too stuck in the Alter Heim to get an education.

39

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:35 PM Rafuel Says:

Reply to #20  
Professor Says:

I agree that what yafeed is doing is just to push a nasty agenda.
The concept of first looking intobthe public school is wrong. As bad as the public school system is, they are following the regulations that are being paid to do.
If the yeshivas take money from the government in order to give education, they need to follow the rules.
My take is, either take money and follow the requirements or don't teach English but don't take money from the government.

That's not the solution either. If our schools don't take the money and don't teach english, the authorities will still insist that the boys are taught common curriculum, either in public schools or through homeschooling. Yes, I know families that homeschool very successfully; the group of families pool their resources and hire a a good rebbi for important learning and a qualified teacher for english. Nonetheless, I fear that a number of our heilige boys will be forced into the public schools where they will mix with all kinds and will be subjected to the secular filth, intellectually and behaviorally. Be very careful about what you ask for.

40

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:

They don't work anyhow, so why do the kids need an education? Just remain on welfare forever.

41

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:02 PM fat36 Says:

Reply to #34  
kayboy Says:

The number of people on programs has nothing to do with the education, it has to do with cost of living and how much it costs to be a religious Jew.
People I know who have degrees are on programs, while others without a "real" education are quite successful and earned it all without even contemplating college.
How many people, asides for doctors and lawyers, who are earning in the millions can say they are only there because of their degrees and diplomas?

It's so happens to be my degree made my life miserable after getting it and going off all programs section 8 food stamps Medicaid now I have to kill myself to pay for insurance and taxes I get raped on I'm left with nothing and I'm killing myself so degree actually put me in the pit I am an ATM machine for the government.payback is a.........,

42

 Jul 29, 2015 at 01:18 PM diemaynstazdiebiztklieg Says:

These people are Self-Hating Jews. I am proof that the system works. I went to a good yeshiva and dropped out of high school secular studies. I then continued my learning Torah, with good solid (limudei-kodesh only) yeshivas, and learned in kollel several years.

I am now 40+, and have a solid career, without any degrees and I am earning a whopping 250k+/yr.

No, I don't own a business, and I am in the financial services/banking industry.

I can sincerely attest to the fact, that my gemara skills along with the great values, which I received in yeshiva along with the values that I have inherited from my ancestors, is what got me to where I am today. I am b'h better off, than most of my secular or jewish colleagues, which have attended, some of the world-renowned universities.

43

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
PowerUp Says:

Not going into the fact that its mesira to say anything against mosdos that our holy people of the previous generation build with blood and sweat, I had a subpar english education, and I BH earn more money or should I say much more money, then the lawyers who are respresenting me in verious transactions, I sometimes wonder why they spend the best 8 years of their life in collegen by time they get out, they already have a family to feed.

I know countless people, who can't read a contract, they can not read english, yet they do business in the tens of millions, to be successful in business you don't need to know math at all, I long forgot how to solve math problems on paper, you need an intrapreneurial spirit, and for someone like that, education is harmful because the secret of success is to think outside of the box, (do what 98 percent of people are not doing) and in school you only learn conventional thinking.

Your doing well is not at all statistically significant when considering how thousands of others are doing. You may have an "intrapreneurial" spirit, but I can tell you that if you spelled like that on an application to me, I would toss it straight into the garbage as being from someone with minimal education and without the intellectual curiosity and pride to even spell check his work. Look on Wikipedia for the list of New York locations by per capita income. The per capita income for the entire state is about $40,000. The bottom three towns on the list, numbers 1050-1052 of all towns and cities in NY, are New Square (per capita $5237), Kaser (per capita $5147) and KJ (per capita $4355). Monsey is #993, with a per capita of $14000 and 30% of residents below the poverty line. It is unacceptable to have so many Yidden in poverty, in a country in which there are so many opportunities. Giving them an adequate education is part of the solution.

44

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:56 PM Ex Kollel Guy/ Tea Party Says:

Yes those intiating this have an agenda and are up to no good. But who else will do our dirty work? If any of us speak up we are going against das torah and will be ex-communicated. More importantly whether you agree with their approach or not why aren't we addressing the greater issue? Why are we not providing a secular education?
1) For those who argue, I know millionares without education. Well what about your straight guy who wants to just work and get a salary job. Not everyone is cut out to open a business. Even those who made it threw college without a HS education would have been better off and more well equiped if they had one
2) Even more important, what constructive thing are these boys doing anyhow? How many 14 yr olds are capable of sitting & learning a whole day. Schools end up just shlpeing out the day to keep the kids busy. The kids end up growing up in a less structured enviornment. I have yet to see the schools without a secular eductaion produce greater talmidi chachmim.

45

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:59 PM Tea Party Says:

This anti secular machla just grows and grows. Just llok at EY. the poverty is terrible. Whats the American solution? Adopt kollels. Noone came up with the solution to adopt work programs. And with the charedim in the government now we can finally work out a feasable army solution. But no secular studies and work is treif.

46

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:59 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #36  
FALLSBURGER Says:

I just past through East New York, where 99% of the residents receive
free elementary school
free high school
free college
free everything ( that we hard working tax paying people pay for..)
I was amazed by the "success" exhibited in that area....
1) Blocks & blocks of empty stores.
2) Crime through the roof.
3) Guys hanging out 24/7 at the bodegas...

Was very happy to make it back safely to Williamsburg, where we only have 90 minute secular education, but we also BH have:
1) A strong vibrant economy
2) Crime free 99%
3) Chesed Capital of the World

I am happy to be part of the amazing Williamsburg community & if the Jewish Week & their ilk can't comprehend how we ignoramus Chassidim can be so successful, I invite them to come spend some time here & see it themselves & not rely on a few losers

Yes...but you're parasitic,..I mean, who are YOUR physicians, engineers, attorneys, dentists, actuaries, software developers, CPAs, production managers, chemists, pharmacists, research biologists, forensic investigators...?

47

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:00 PM Rafuel Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

Really? One is not eligible for my job without a degree in science or engineering and I use this knowledge on a daily basis. I work in a company in Silicon Valley, where there are hundreds of thousands of people with degrees in science, computer science and engineering, using their knowledge so that you can type your narishkeit into a computer. Just because you and the people you know are managing to make a living while having little secular education does not mean the rest of the world is like that. Who designed and built your car, your radio, your computer, your Shabbos hot water pot, your stove, your doorbell? Wake up- it is the 21st Century and there is no reason to hold back a generation of smart, capable kids who deserve an opportunity to participate in it.

Agree, to an extent. Back when I worked for other employers, I also held jobs for which I would not be eligible without a master's degree in computer sciences or cybernetics or something related. But guess what. For vast majority of the tasks that we, developers with titles like software engineer, performed, 60 to 80% of the knowledge without which you couldn't complete master's degree, was totally unnecessary, unless you count the intangibles, such as clear understanding of the basics, etc.

What I am trying to say is: a man can become a very adequate IT developer, or even a very good one if he is very intelligent, without a college degree, usually taking professional courses of increasing complexity as he is perfecting himself over time. And I put my money where my mouth is: my partners and I don't insist on degrees as long as we are hiring someone who is comfortable with his skills and possesses brilliant intellect, who either already have proven achievements, or sometimes just give me a "hunch" that he will go far... and unless she is a married woman of childbearing age, which is for another discussion. And so far b"H we are doing well.

48

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:23 PM Ex Kollel Guy Says:

Reply to #21  
shanda Says:

Pity this wasnt addressed years ago the boys come out of yeshiva unable
to write a proper sentence, let alone paragraph.

I am a huge fan of secular education. But in reality for the 21st century your concern should not be about one's writing skills. Composing large memos or even nice e-mails are a thing of the past. People (especially higherups( are overwhelmed with my e-mails and generally prefer one or two sentenced e-mails whether its slanged or not. Whats more vital is tech skills. High schools should be etaching children how to use excel & word properly.

49

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
PowerUp Says:

Not going into the fact that its mesira to say anything against mosdos that our holy people of the previous generation build with blood and sweat, I had a subpar english education, and I BH earn more money or should I say much more money, then the lawyers who are respresenting me in verious transactions, I sometimes wonder why they spend the best 8 years of their life in collegen by time they get out, they already have a family to feed.

I know countless people, who can't read a contract, they can not read english, yet they do business in the tens of millions, to be successful in business you don't need to know math at all, I long forgot how to solve math problems on paper, you need an intrapreneurial spirit, and for someone like that, education is harmful because the secret of success is to think outside of the box, (do what 98 percent of people are not doing) and in school you only learn conventional thinking.

I work at an intense math job and I strongly disagree with your statement. For those that want salaried jobs its not so much about thinking out of the box as having the right skills to work within the box. Sorry must of us are not suited and will never make money via just thinking out of the box.

51

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:11 PM favish Says:

Reply to #18  
fat36 Says:

Funny story I was once on the bus years ago going to Montreal and the customs guy came on the bus and asked one of the boys what is your birthdate he answered ג שבט he kept on asking him and the boy kept on repeating the same thing the boy had no idea that he had an English birthday

#18 Nu, so what?

52

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:09 PM wise man Says:

The ones that signed this letter and the proponents are nothing short of rodfim. What's going to happen now, will be a full fledged look into ALL yeshivas and how secular studies are taught. Be prepared for more hours of חול, for no reason whatsoever.

I am not מקנאה the upcoming גהנים of these chasidishe OYSVORF BUMS who are behind this !!

53

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:42 PM simcha47 Says:

As I’ve stated previously, this Yaffed group does not have pure intentions in my opinion and that is why I cannot support this initiative. As an attorney I have several Chassidisher clients that I represent regularly. I happen to admire greatly the fact that they were able to achieve great success without receiving any secular education. Many are extremely intelligent investors and have amassed much greater wealth than some of my other clients with degrees. I’ve broached this issue before regarding secular education with them. Some feel it is unnecessary. Others believe that a more comprehensive secular education should be provided to students because you can’t expect the masses to be entrepreneurs and as the community continues to grow BH” so are the needs and the necessity to work. One thing I do know that all have expressed. They are so inundated with collectors that show up at their door daily, that it’s impossible to support them all. They see the exponential growth as a wonderful thing but a more realistic system needs to be in place.

54

 Jul 29, 2015 at 06:27 PM Anonymous Says:

This is an affront to freedom of religion - if these otd losers don't like it they.can go to russia

55

 Jul 29, 2015 at 06:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
judith Says:

Without food stamps, Medicaid, section 8 etc., most people yeshiva people without secular education would be starving. The high enrollment in these government programs proves this. There is no need to compare with inner city kids. It is an irrelevant discussion.

I'm a college grad and still in Foodstamps and Medicaid, and am eligible for Section 8 but it isn't available currently, but I'm on the waiting list - the problem isn't education, it's the economy

56

 Jul 29, 2015 at 08:09 PM Larry Says:

Read comment #41 you may want to stick with the programs especially if you get section 8

57

 Jul 29, 2015 at 08:10 PM sighber Says:

This past school year, my son was in an eighth grade in a yeshiva that had secular edication.He was very upset because the teacher was teaching about population control and evolution. The teacher who was also not Jewish was not a yirei Shomoyim.

58

 Jul 29, 2015 at 09:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
yonasonw Says:

At least in NY, maybe things will change.

A couple of years ago I heard a Rav relate the following story...favorably:

A European trained Rosh Yeshiva admonished a bochur, who years later was in Kollel with the Rav, and who was the source of the story. The bochur was carrying his math book close to his chest. The Rosh Yeshiva stopped him in a hallway, and said:

"You carry a Gemora dat vay, a math book you carry like a dead skvirrel."

Sad.

You're disdain and disrespect for everything and everyone from is clear in each post. You would fit in much better on the al jazeera blog.

59

 Jul 29, 2015 at 09:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
cyrano Says:

How about first insuring that the education provided to the public sector is up to par and then worry about whether Yeshivas are providing enough secular education.

You see, if public school students aren't providing education, they will mature into a life of low level crime, violence and substance abuse. Yeshivah students without secular education for the most part evolve into Kollel life. (Oy Gevalt!)

Besides, a paltry sum total of 52 members of the Brooklyn community (out of how many tens of thousands?) are listed in the complaint. Losers, each and every one of them! They are simply justifying their unsuccessful lives on their lack of schooling. I can guarantee that if these complainants had been educated in the public school system, they would still be members of the unemployable community because of their flawed character, not the flawed Yeshivah system.

When the govt. provides free tuition to yeshiva parents, like they do to public school parents, then they can have more input into the curriculum.

60

 Jul 29, 2015 at 09:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
judith Says:

Without food stamps, Medicaid, section 8 etc., most people yeshiva people without secular education would be starving. The high enrollment in these government programs proves this. There is no need to compare with inner city kids. It is an irrelevant discussion.

Do you have any statistics or other proof to back up your anti frum claims? Just what's needed here, another self hating Jew basher.

62

 Jul 29, 2015 at 10:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
judith Says:

Without food stamps, Medicaid, section 8 etc., most people yeshiva people without secular education would be starving. The high enrollment in these government programs proves this. There is no need to compare with inner city kids. It is an irrelevant discussion.

And those with secular studies are guaranteed not to starve without these programs? insane.

63

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:24 PM yankie Says:

Reply to #19  
bennyt Says:

Yankie - You meant "principals" and not "principles." Did you attend one of these yeshivas?

No, i did not. But my (not so) smart phone with the voice-to-text feature did. Hehe :-) Have a wonderful day.

64

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:37 PM judith Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

Do you have any statistics or other proof to back up your anti frum claims? Just what's needed here, another self hating Jew basher.

Deny deny deny is the name of the game, but everyone knows it's true. Government programs are what keep the no-English communities alive.

65

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:39 PM judith Says:

Reply to #34  
kayboy Says:

The number of people on programs has nothing to do with the education, it has to do with cost of living and how much it costs to be a religious Jew.
People I know who have degrees are on programs, while others without a "real" education are quite successful and earned it all without even contemplating college.
How many people, asides for doctors and lawyers, who are earning in the millions can say they are only there because of their degrees and diplomas?

You must be very very low income to qualify for those programs.

66

 Jul 30, 2015 at 12:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

Very well said.

I am posting anonymously for the first time...to protect the innocent.

The problem applies to girls too. I have a daughter who went to a "prestigious" Beis Yaakov..one of the better known ones in Flatbush. She graduated without ever having to produce a paper exhibiting any analytical skills, consistently received top grades for superficial reports of a few pages written in large point font. She received no education in languages (other than Ivris) - none in higher level math, history or social studies...the only bar was to do just enough to pass the Regents.

And then on "Option Night" we were addressed by a Rabbi who explicitly said that woman should not have to work, but "nebuch," in the world we are in they need to know how to teach, to support their learning husbands.

I will forever regret sending her there.

All of secular education is treif...the very idea of Torah Umadda is treif...the whole world outside the dalet amos of the Yeshiva velt is smutz and treif.

Who do they think the professionals will be in their idealized Torah world? It certainly won't be them...they're too stuck in the Alter Heim to get an education.

There is no question that Torah uMadda is certainly treif. Earning a parnassa is just as certainly NOT treif. But the two should not be confused as they are not relevant to each other.

In other words, is is certainly true that there is no secular subject that has INTRINSIC value. Only, lihavdil, Torah has intrinsic value. But (some) secular subjects do have some external value for things like earning a parnassa.

67

 Jul 30, 2015 at 01:50 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #5  
cyrano Says:

How about first insuring that the education provided to the public sector is up to par and then worry about whether Yeshivas are providing enough secular education.

You see, if public school students aren't providing education, they will mature into a life of low level crime, violence and substance abuse. Yeshivah students without secular education for the most part evolve into Kollel life. (Oy Gevalt!)

Besides, a paltry sum total of 52 members of the Brooklyn community (out of how many tens of thousands?) are listed in the complaint. Losers, each and every one of them! They are simply justifying their unsuccessful lives on their lack of schooling. I can guarantee that if these complainants had been educated in the public school system, they would still be members of the unemployable community because of their flawed character, not the flawed Yeshivah system.

You are absolutely correct. The secular education system must improve so the goyim can earn more money and thus pay more taxes so that the kollel parasites can get more food stamps, more Section 8 (at least 8 1/2), and more free cholent.

68

 Jul 30, 2015 at 07:38 AM diemaynstazdiebiztklieg Says:

I am moche for Kevod Hatora! Oy Lonu Meielbona Shel Torah! It is a busha vecharpa how much bizayon hatorah is posted in these comments. However it is naturally the case, as Chaza"l say, Yoser sinas am haaretz letalmid chacham mesinas hoakum leyisroel. By the way, it is said in seforim hakedoshim, that if you are not machshiv torah, then you are automatically considered an am haaretz rch"l.

69

 Jul 30, 2015 at 10:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #66  
Anonymous Says:

There is no question that Torah uMadda is certainly treif. Earning a parnassa is just as certainly NOT treif. But the two should not be confused as they are not relevant to each other.

In other words, is is certainly true that there is no secular subject that has INTRINSIC value. Only, lihavdil, Torah has intrinsic value. But (some) secular subjects do have some external value for things like earning a parnassa.

"Torah Umadda (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה וּמַדָּע, "Torah and secular knowledge") is a philosophy of Orthodox Judaism concerning the relationship between the secular world and Judaism, and in particular between secular knowledge and Jewish religious knowledge. The resultant mode of Orthodox Judaism is referred to as Centrist Orthodoxy."

Torah Umadda stands for nothing more than the ability to have one's Torah resonate and shine while partaking of secular knowledge and education. By calling this treif, you exhibit yourself to be part of the problem.

70

 Jul 30, 2015 at 10:11 AM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #65  
judith Says:

You must be very very low income to qualify for those programs.

...or not reporting all of your income.

71

 Jul 30, 2015 at 10:23 AM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

You're disdain and disrespect for everything and everyone from is clear in each post. You would fit in much better on the al jazeera blog.

So you're a fan of the dead skvirrel approach...just proves my point, as your comment doesn't address anything of substance...it's merely the illogical lashing out of the uneducated. Man....is your learning any better?

And that's frum...not from

72

 Jul 30, 2015 at 12:03 PM diemaynstazdiebiztklieg Says:

Reply to #71  
yonasonw Says:

So you're a fan of the dead skvirrel approach...just proves my point, as your comment doesn't address anything of substance...it's merely the illogical lashing out of the uneducated. Man....is your learning any better?

And that's frum...not from

Yes, I agree to #58. I am from the old school, b"h we have a good track record and date back as far back as Matan Torah. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We have nothing to be embarassed about. the skvirrel approach is excellent.

73

 Jul 30, 2015 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:

It appears that diemaynstazdiebiztklieg is talking to the point, as there is no one that has yet to prove the comments, as defective. Way to go, diemaynstazdiebiztklieg!

74

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

I'm a college grad and still in Foodstamps and Medicaid, and am eligible for Section 8 but it isn't available currently, but I'm on the waiting list - the problem isn't education, it's the economy

Out of curiosity, what type of degree do you have and from which college?

75

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:46 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #73  
Anonymous Says:

It appears that diemaynstazdiebiztklieg is talking to the point, as there is no one that has yet to prove the comments, as defective. Way to go, diemaynstazdiebiztklieg!

#58 says "...If it ain't broke, don't fix i..."

You must, therefore, endorse continuation of the system in EY, where all of the non-Chareidi elements in society subsidize the largely unemployable Chareidim...as well as the socialization in communities such as Boro Park that creates an environment of rejection and isolation for children who leave he community - and rallies in support of sex abusers.

Shkoyach! Dead skvirrel indeed.

76

 Jul 30, 2015 at 03:16 PM diemaynstazdiebiztklieg Says:

Reply to #75  
yonasonw Says:

#58 says "...If it ain't broke, don't fix i..."

You must, therefore, endorse continuation of the system in EY, where all of the non-Chareidi elements in society subsidize the largely unemployable Chareidim...as well as the socialization in communities such as Boro Park that creates an environment of rejection and isolation for children who leave he community - and rallies in support of sex abusers.

Shkoyach! Dead skvirrel indeed.

That is correct, everyone should support the Lomdei Torah. It might be the only zechus kiyum that they have on this world. Otherwise, they would be doomed!

77

 Jul 30, 2015 at 03:24 PM diemaynstazdiebiztklieg Says:

Reply to #75  
yonasonw Says:

#58 says "...If it ain't broke, don't fix i..."

You must, therefore, endorse continuation of the system in EY, where all of the non-Chareidi elements in society subsidize the largely unemployable Chareidim...as well as the socialization in communities such as Boro Park that creates an environment of rejection and isolation for children who leave he community - and rallies in support of sex abusers.

Shkoyach! Dead skvirrel indeed.

By the way, Sex Abusers are only supported by Chareidim? I think you have to judge each case separately. Yes, there might be individuals that have negius to certain defendants and therefore will stick up for them. that does not make the community as a whole , that they are supporting Sex Abusers.
On the other note, Isolation of children who leave the fold, are isolating themselves, with their Actions. I really don't know where you are going with this one. Our communities have the most kiruv kerovim organizations than any other community.

78

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