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Newark, NJ - Woman Demands Apology From Airline After Ultra-Orthodox Man Refuses To Sit Next To Her (video)

Published on: July 29, 2015 02:43 PM
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FILE - Chef Christine Flynn (Instagram-theyamburglar)FILE - Chef Christine Flynn (Instagram-theyamburglar)

Newark, NJ - A flight from Newark to Toronto was delayed early Monday morning after an ultra-Orthodox Jewish man refused to sit in his assigned seat because his seatmate was a woman. Now, Christine Flynn, 31, is demanding an apology from Porter Airlines for how the situation was handled.

According to Flynn, she had just strapped into her seat when the ultra-Orthodox man came down the aisle and refused to make eye contact with or speak to her. “He turned to the gentleman across the aisle and said, ‘Change,’” Flynn recounted. The female passenger said initially she did not understand why the man was pointing towards her, but speaking to the man across the aisle. She then realized the haredi man did not want to sit next to her because she was a woman.

“He could have made a plan, he could have put in a request,” Flynn told the CBC (http://bit.ly/1VNrgOY ). “When someone doesn’t look at you, and when someone doesn’t acknowledge you as person because of your gender, you’re a lot less willing to be accommodating.  Leaving it to the last minute and expecting me to move is appalling. He’s expecting me to fall in to that archetypical feminine role and acquiesce.”

The man across from Flynn declined to change his seat, so the ultra-Orthodox man asked the man behind him to switch seats. A flight attendant finally intervened and asked what the problem was.

“I said, ‘This man is refusing to sit next to me because I am a woman,’ Flynn said. “At that point, another man behind ... offered to switch with me and the airline attendant said, ‘Would you be willing to move? and I said, ‘Absolutely not. This is ridiculous,’” she said. “I was without words.”

The haredi man was eventually seated next to another male traveler and the flight took off. But Flynn said she’s angry she was asked to move and frustrated that her fellow passengers were even willing to accommodate the ultra-Orthodox man.

“I have a problem with that. He [the flight attendant] probably, maybe, didn’t realize that asking a woman to move because the fact she had a uterus made the man next to her uncomfortable ... I don’t think he even would have put it together that that’s kind of insulting and maybe even discriminatory,” she said. “If someone had refused to sit next to me because I was gay and maybe they were some kind of old-school religion that doesn’t like gay people, no one would have switched with him. It would have been off the table.”

Flynn admitted there may have been a language barrier, noting the man’s English “wasn’t terrific,” and said she may have changed seats if had he spoken to her directly and asked her nicely to switch seats. But the man’s refusal to make eye contact with her deeply offended her.

A spokesman for Porter Airlines, Brad Cicero, defended the airline’s handling of the situation saying the flight attendant “did his best to manage the situation as efficiently and reasonably as possible in order to avoid an unnecessary delay.”

He said there were very few seats available to place the man because the flight was almost full. “Only a few seats were available, and no row was entirely unoccupied,” Cicero said. “The flight attendant politely asked Ms. Flynn if she would be able to change seats. She declined, so the flight attendant began asking other passengers if they would be willing to assist. Someone did agree to move and it was not perceived to be a particularly contentious situation by the flight attendant.”

Flynn said she is still holding out for an apology from the airline. “I’d like an apology,” she said. “There really should be a policy around this. If people are going to get on flights and demand that they sit next to someone of the same sex, there should be an area where they can go. I should not have to move because someone has a problem with my uterus.”


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Read Comments (90)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:52 PM LkwdGuy Says:

Assuming her account is accurate, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior. One who wants to be machmir in this area should simply purchase two seats. I have seen a number of chashuvim do just that. Yes it will make flying much more expensive but there is really no other mentshlicha way to do it. Even asking nicely and sweetly is often perceived as insulting.

2

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:53 PM commonsense99 Says:

Chusid shoiter

3

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:53 PM WakeUp2 Says:

He's either a KODOSH or a SHOYTAH!!

4

 Jul 29, 2015 at 02:56 PM Anonymous Says:

I believe its more about safety then anything elso,

The women next to u on the plane might decide she dosent like u and tells flight attendand u touched her and u face 20 years in prison,

it happens alot

6

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:01 PM Rafuel Says:

“The flight attendant politely asked Ms. Flynn if she would be able to change seats. She declined, so the flight attendant began asking other passengers if they would be willing to assist. Someone did agree to move and it was not perceived to be a particularly contentious situation by the flight attendant.”

So where is the problem? Objectively, there isn't. A very different question: What is her problem? And here is the perfect tell: "He’s expecting me to fall in to that archetypical feminine role and acquiesce.” All that - after he was politely asked, refused and left alone... Her poor relationship with English language aside, she is a feminazi!

Why should any decent man, especially a religious one, be punished by being obliged to make eye contact with this chaleria?

7

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:03 PM Anonymous Says:

With all the understanding and tolerance, this "ultra-orthodox" man was not truly "machmir". He caused a chilul Hashem, and caused bizyonos for other people. He is entitled to his preferences (which he somehow calls chumros), but does not have the right to impose these on others. I am embarrassed by his disgraceful behavior.

8

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:11 PM Rachel W. Says:

Why an apology from the airline? Nothing wrong with politely asking her if she'd mind switching seats.mjo big deal was made about it. She is just basking in her 5 minutes of fame. Much ado about nothing.

9

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:13 PM Ex Kollel Guy Says:

The narrative all ties into the no secular education narrative. We as a scoeity have moved way more to the right than our ancestors. I had chasidish rabbiem who took the city bus even in the summer when untznuis ladies were present.

10

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:18 PM samuelhigh Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I believe its more about safety then anything elso,

The women next to u on the plane might decide she dosent like u and tells flight attendand u touched her and u face 20 years in prison,

it happens alot

Oh, PLEASE. I fly a lot, both for work and pleasure, including many long-haul international flights. and this would never occur to me - it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It was nothing to do with safety.

11

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:18 PM yellowzebra Says:

I don't see where there is a problem with the story only this woman has thin skin. she is upset that a flight attendant nicely asked her to switch seats. the only reason that this would be a chilul hashem is if he had demanded some one switch seats but he did not. He did nothing wrong you might have a problem with his way he acts when around women but he said nothing.wrong he just nicely asked to switch seats.

12

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:20 PM bennyt Says:

Just write her a check for $5.9 million and case closed!

13

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:24 PM remelys Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With all the understanding and tolerance, this "ultra-orthodox" man was not truly "machmir". He caused a chilul Hashem, and caused bizyonos for other people. He is entitled to his preferences (which he somehow calls chumros), but does not have the right to impose these on others. I am embarrassed by his disgraceful behavior.

Very well put! 100% agree.

14

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:24 PM U R wrong Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With all the understanding and tolerance, this "ultra-orthodox" man was not truly "machmir". He caused a chilul Hashem, and caused bizyonos for other people. He is entitled to his preferences (which he somehow calls chumros), but does not have the right to impose these on others. I am embarrassed by his disgraceful behavior.

The orthodox man did not ask her to move. He has the right to ask another person to change.

15

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
commonsense99 Says:

Chusid shoiter

I never came across a shoter who is a chusid.

16

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:28 PM Susan Says:

Give me a break, this woman is being so silly. I can understand why it would bother her, but to SUE? I mean, honestly. If it were anyone from any other religion for another religious reason she'd have no problem with it. The man who didn't want to sit next to her also probably doesn't speak to women, and his English is not that great either. She should grow up and stop being so obstinate.

17

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:31 PM OberBoberGrober Says:

It looks like this woman likes to stir up a pot. He didn't do anythign wrong, you can decide not to sit next to a woman, and it's his choice to lead whatever lifestyle HE wants.

18

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

This has happened to me many times when I am flying with my husband. He likes to sit on the aisle due to his size and I sit in the middle. The hasids refuse to sit next to me and insist that I sit in another seat!!! Needless to say my husband is upset because the plane is delayed and many times all seats are taken. What nerve to ask a married woman to change seats!

19

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:40 PM Anonymous Says:

I am sometimes shocked at the comments of some of the bloggers here. Why do you have to dismiss out right if someone follows a more stringent opinion. Did you ever discuss this with a rov. There are differences of opinions if someone can or should sit next to a woman. I have a bigger problem with the woman's attitude. We live in a world where we are expected to respect every person's orientation. So my question is why can't she. But especially my fellow commenters who should know better.

20

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:46 PM bennyt Says:

She should be happy that chasid didn't want to sit next to her!

21

 Jul 29, 2015 at 03:47 PM Reb Yid Says:

The man never sought to involve her in the first place. He was trying to switch with other men. It was the flight attendant who first approached the woman herself. And, in the end, he switched with another man anyway. So this lady's involvement was peripheral at best, and she's just engaged in anti-religious campaigning. Witness how she brings in "gays."

22

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:02 PM yidel750 Says:

I've flown with Porter Airlines many times and they are extremely good and very professional. The yid is wrong for not dealing with the situation properly but I think that this woman is really taking things out of proportion. It happens very often that people are not comfortable with their seats and usually people are understanding especially when it comes to religious reasons.
I believe Porter has a lot of business from yiden as i've witnessed when i fly with them and i believe part of it is because they really try very hard to accommodate everyone.

23

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:04 PM Longwave Says:

Story with Reb Moshe (Feinstein, for those under 30).
He went to a doctor, where the doctors' mother was working as a receptionist. The woman saw Reb Moshe and got up and touched him. The doctor chastised his mother and said that you are not allowed to touch Rabbonim, especially Reb Moshe.

Reb Moshe (who saw the tattoo on the mother's arm, said to the doctor - it is forbidden to talk harshly to the Kedoshim.

This was a gadol hador..........

24

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:09 PM sissel613 Says:

His Rebbe must be proud of him!!!--next time let him buy 2 seats

25

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:15 PM apology from whom? Says:

I do not understand her anger. The airline did not wrong her, maybe the fellow passenger did. She has little to sue him for so she is attacking the airline.

26

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:18 PM savtainsandiego Says:

When booking a flight a customer needs to make it known they have special needs, in this case, a man not seated next to a woman, for religious reasons. He should have asked to be seated near a man and explain why. The woman in this story was offended that the man did not make eye contact with her. He was not discriminating against her for being a woman. She wasn't aware that Jewish men are not supposed to have physical contact or speak with women other than their wives, mothers, daughters. This guy was being machmir because in the normal course of events a plane can jolt causing accidental touching. That was his fear - accidental touching. People need to be reasonable; he should have made his needs known prior to boarding had he not done so when making reservations. And yes, men and women can sit next to each other in cars, buses, trains, planes. For those who prefer otherwise, they should buy two adjacent seats. Never make a Chilul Hashem; always make a Kiddush Hashem.

27

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:20 PM WakeUp2 Says:

Maybe she was stinking from fish?!

28

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:20 PM WolfishMusings Says:

Reply to #16  
Susan Says:

Give me a break, this woman is being so silly. I can understand why it would bother her, but to SUE? I mean, honestly. If it were anyone from any other religion for another religious reason she'd have no problem with it. The man who didn't want to sit next to her also probably doesn't speak to women, and his English is not that great either. She should grow up and stop being so obstinate.

I did not see any indication in the article that she filed suit or even had any intention to do so. She simply demanded an apology.

The Wolf

29

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:21 PM anonymous Says:

Did you catch the part of the article where it quotes her as saying, "some kind of old-school religion that doesn’t like gay people"?

Oh, I wonder about whom she might be referring?

This woman has an agenda with anyone with Torah values, it has nothing to do with this particular incident, and she would probably be just as hostile to observant people of many forms of A"Z that maintain conservative social standards.

30

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:43 PM favish Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With all the understanding and tolerance, this "ultra-orthodox" man was not truly "machmir". He caused a chilul Hashem, and caused bizyonos for other people. He is entitled to his preferences (which he somehow calls chumros), but does not have the right to impose these on others. I am embarrassed by his disgraceful behavior.

#7 he did not impose. He asked. And who says one has to make eye contact

31

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:48 PM favish Says:

Reply to #23  
Longwave Says:

Story with Reb Moshe (Feinstein, for those under 30).
He went to a doctor, where the doctors' mother was working as a receptionist. The woman saw Reb Moshe and got up and touched him. The doctor chastised his mother and said that you are not allowed to touch Rabbonim, especially Reb Moshe.

Reb Moshe (who saw the tattoo on the mother's arm, said to the doctor - it is forbidden to talk harshly to the Kedoshim.

This was a gadol hador..........

#23 please it happened....but no lekatchila

32

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:09 PM Esti Says:

I'm sick and tired of hearing these stories on the news. It's a big chillul hashem and it gives all of us frum yidin a bad name. The men who are really machmir not to sit next to women need to work it out with the airline before they get on the plane.

33

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:10 PM rhoneyman Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I believe its more about safety then anything elso,

The women next to u on the plane might decide she dosent like u and tells flight attendand u touched her and u face 20 years in prison,

it happens alot

seriously? it happens a lot? smh

34

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:10 PM BB Says:

Reply to #1  
LkwdGuy Says:

Assuming her account is accurate, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior. One who wants to be machmir in this area should simply purchase two seats. I have seen a number of chashuvim do just that. Yes it will make flying much more expensive but there is really no other mentshlicha way to do it. Even asking nicely and sweetly is often perceived as insulting.

How exactly does one purchase 2 seats?

35

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:06 PM Realistic Says:

Whatever she wants to say about that Jew, what about her.

No one asked her to change
No one did it because they don't like her, or because she is of an inferior class
It's a religious issue someone has about sitting near a woman, not matter of what religion.
The whole comparison to Gay is as absurd it could get. The issue is simple, woman are attractive and "liked" (not the opposite) and that's the reason he didn't want to sit near a woman. It's not because he didn't like her gender.

She is just looking for attention, which VIN News is gladly giving her.

36

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:40 PM chaimyankel Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I believe its more about safety then anything elso,

The women next to u on the plane might decide she dosent like u and tells flight attendand u touched her and u face 20 years in prison,

it happens alot

I agree with you 100%.
I never sit next to a women because I have the fear of them making up a story.
I do ask nicely to be changed and do make eye contact.i am not afraid of talking to her I am just petrified of being arrested for her false accusation.
I think its time to start wearing hidden cameras like the police officers so you can prove your innocence

37

 Jul 29, 2015 at 04:59 PM Yossel Says:

Reply to #21  
Reb Yid Says:

The man never sought to involve her in the first place. He was trying to switch with other men. It was the flight attendant who first approached the woman herself. And, in the end, he switched with another man anyway. So this lady's involvement was peripheral at best, and she's just engaged in anti-religious campaigning. Witness how she brings in "gays."

If someone wants to be sure they don't sit next to a woman, they should buy more than one seat. No one has a right to buy a reserved seat and expect someone else to give up their seat because of a chumrah shtuss.

38

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:06 PM עכשיו אני מבין Says:

I'm sorry but I do NOT believe her story. She's saying it with too much venom. The way she sounds, whatever sliver of truth there might be, is defused by her obvious bout of וסס!!

39

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:12 PM rhoneyman Says:

Reply to #29  
anonymous Says:

Did you catch the part of the article where it quotes her as saying, "some kind of old-school religion that doesn’t like gay people"?

Oh, I wonder about whom she might be referring?

This woman has an agenda with anyone with Torah values, it has nothing to do with this particular incident, and she would probably be just as hostile to observant people of many forms of A"Z that maintain conservative social standards.

No. It has to do with men moving about in the public who have taken on a chumra that is a chumra on a chumra. It is absurd and often results in, as in this case, a serious chillul hashem.

40

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:23 PM shvigger Says:

Reply to #22  
yidel750 Says:

I've flown with Porter Airlines many times and they are extremely good and very professional. The yid is wrong for not dealing with the situation properly but I think that this woman is really taking things out of proportion. It happens very often that people are not comfortable with their seats and usually people are understanding especially when it comes to religious reasons.
I believe Porter has a lot of business from yiden as i've witnessed when i fly with them and i believe part of it is because they really try very hard to accommodate everyone.

How did the Yid not deal with the situation properly?

41

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:24 PM yochy Says:

the guy is a dope and so is she - what does the airline have to do with it? She should demand an apology from him.

42

 Jul 29, 2015 at 05:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
BB Says:

How exactly does one purchase 2 seats?

With twice as much money.

43

 Jul 29, 2015 at 06:01 PM yoheved Says:

in all honesty, we are in an age now where there is a heightened sense of discrimination, and although some of it is completely of a non-kosher origin, such as the gay issue, real gender discrimination is very real. i completely understand this woman's point, as many orthodox men do not feel the need to address women with respect, and being that she was not Jewish, i can only imagine the contempt she felt from him. somewhere these ultra-orthodox folks are going to suffer for their inability to address this issue among themselves. being publicly humiliated due to one's gender can have lots of negative repercussions, and this man will be lucky is he doesn't get sued for defamation. My suggestion is that everyone treat everyone else with respect, weather warranted or not, because not to do so is becoming increasingly dangerous, not to mention being unkind. We do not determine halacha among the nations. if we are uncomfortable with something, we have either a choice not to participate in it or pre-arrange it for our needs. but to demand that non-Jews spontaneously re-arrange themselves for us is the height of arrogance and narcissism, traits that have no place in real halacha.

44

 Jul 29, 2015 at 06:04 PM AConcernedyid Says:

2 words: chillul Hashem

45

 Jul 29, 2015 at 06:16 PM yidel750 Says:

Just replying to all of you telling him to purchase 2 seats it does not work. If there are people on stand by the airline will stick them on the plane.
It happened to me personally I once purchased tickets for my family and for whatever reason my wife and one of my children did not come along and the airline put stand by people on those seats even though I told them that they were mine and I paid for them.

46

 Jul 29, 2015 at 06:17 PM mewhoze Says:

I smell the word law suit. that's what its all about

47

 Jul 29, 2015 at 06:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Susan Says:

Give me a break, this woman is being so silly. I can understand why it would bother her, but to SUE? I mean, honestly. If it were anyone from any other religion for another religious reason she'd have no problem with it. The man who didn't want to sit next to her also probably doesn't speak to women, and his English is not that great either. She should grow up and stop being so obstinate.

Unless I missed something, nowhere in the article does it say anything about her suing.

48

 Jul 29, 2015 at 07:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
savtainsandiego Says:

When booking a flight a customer needs to make it known they have special needs, in this case, a man not seated next to a woman, for religious reasons. He should have asked to be seated near a man and explain why. The woman in this story was offended that the man did not make eye contact with her. He was not discriminating against her for being a woman. She wasn't aware that Jewish men are not supposed to have physical contact or speak with women other than their wives, mothers, daughters. This guy was being machmir because in the normal course of events a plane can jolt causing accidental touching. That was his fear - accidental touching. People need to be reasonable; he should have made his needs known prior to boarding had he not done so when making reservations. And yes, men and women can sit next to each other in cars, buses, trains, planes. For those who prefer otherwise, they should buy two adjacent seats. Never make a Chilul Hashem; always make a Kiddush Hashem.

The most chomadike response here. Kudos!!

49

 Jul 29, 2015 at 07:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Esti Says:

I'm sick and tired of hearing these stories on the news. It's a big chillul hashem and it gives all of us frum yidin a bad name. The men who are really machmir not to sit next to women need to work it out with the airline before they get on the plane.

Correct.

50

 Jul 29, 2015 at 07:09 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

I believe its more about safety then anything elso,

The women next to u on the plane might decide she dosent like u and tells flight attendand u touched her and u face 20 years in prison,

it happens alot

It happens a lot? Really? I've been flying for 46 years and I have never heard of such a thing. Publish evidence here of one such case - or clam it.

51

 Jul 29, 2015 at 07:15 PM yonasonw Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With all the understanding and tolerance, this "ultra-orthodox" man was not truly "machmir". He caused a chilul Hashem, and caused bizyonos for other people. He is entitled to his preferences (which he somehow calls chumros), but does not have the right to impose these on others. I am embarrassed by his disgraceful behavior.

Precisely. People like this idiot cry antisemitism at the drop of a hat, and then publicly act like a Jewish boor - demanding that the general public accept that Jews have a right to export and impose our etiquette on them. Embarrassing and shameful.

52

 Jul 29, 2015 at 08:23 PM ayoyo Says:

Such a big tzadik should have grown wings immediately and flown by himself to wherever he wanted to go.

53

 Jul 29, 2015 at 09:09 PM Anonymous Says:

She a total idiot who needs to get a life.

54

 Jul 29, 2015 at 09:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #50  
yonasonw Says:

It happens a lot? Really? I've been flying for 46 years and I have never heard of such a thing. Publish evidence here of one such case - or clam it.

the fact that it can happen to me or you or anybody else send shivers down my spine

thousands of false claims are made by women every year, as long as our laws don’t change sitting next to a women on a plane is a bad idea

55

 Jul 29, 2015 at 09:49 PM Federal Reserve Says:

Reply to #34  
BB Says:

How exactly does one purchase 2 seats?

With your credit card.

56

 Jul 29, 2015 at 09:52 PM JackC Says:

Reply to #34  
BB Says:

How exactly does one purchase 2 seats?

Let's put the shoe on the other foot.
A Nazi gets on the plane and refuses to sit next to a Jew.

57

 Jul 29, 2015 at 10:35 PM pinktfarkert Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

This has happened to me many times when I am flying with my husband. He likes to sit on the aisle due to his size and I sit in the middle. The hasids refuse to sit next to me and insist that I sit in another seat!!! Needless to say my husband is upset because the plane is delayed and many times all seats are taken. What nerve to ask a married woman to change seats!

"Chillax" ladies, we know it's all about money. We're sorry about her hysterectomy.
Although you commented as "Anonymous" however, I assume you're Jewish so what difference does it make if you're married or not. I wonder where your hashkafa is coming from? Scary to hear this from our own.

58

 Jul 29, 2015 at 10:47 PM Normal Says:

It's super ironic since a large percentage of these guys go to women of the night. Ask the ladies.

59

 Jul 29, 2015 at 10:50 PM hmmmm Says:

This happened to my wife on a plane to Israel and there was an empty seat between her and the guy. When he saw we werent moving or acquiesing he tried telling the stewardess to get us to move and the stewardess basically told him to go jump in a lake (why he didnt try to move himself I dont know probably because he had an aisle seat he didnt want to give up). the guy proceeded to hold a newspaper opposite her face and then when his hands got tired he built himself what could be best described as a pillow fort (from which he kept on peeking out at us). Keep in mind my wife was dressed tznius and was wearing black stockings.... Her stocking covered knees were revealed for 2 seconds and the guy got all excited and put on tallis and teffilin at 3PM local time. We laughed it off but I can see how someone would get offended by such behavior. I have seen similar behavior on other flights to and from Israel. So yes I definitely believe and understand this story.

60

 Jul 29, 2015 at 11:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
yoheved Says:

in all honesty, we are in an age now where there is a heightened sense of discrimination, and although some of it is completely of a non-kosher origin, such as the gay issue, real gender discrimination is very real. i completely understand this woman's point, as many orthodox men do not feel the need to address women with respect, and being that she was not Jewish, i can only imagine the contempt she felt from him. somewhere these ultra-orthodox folks are going to suffer for their inability to address this issue among themselves. being publicly humiliated due to one's gender can have lots of negative repercussions, and this man will be lucky is he doesn't get sued for defamation. My suggestion is that everyone treat everyone else with respect, weather warranted or not, because not to do so is becoming increasingly dangerous, not to mention being unkind. We do not determine halacha among the nations. if we are uncomfortable with something, we have either a choice not to participate in it or pre-arrange it for our needs. but to demand that non-Jews spontaneously re-arrange themselves for us is the height of arrogance and narcissism, traits that have no place in real halacha.

Maybe she should learn to respect our beliefs. Where does it say it's disrespectful not to look at women. I can show you more then one place where it says not to look at woman. Ever heard of shmiras enayim.

61

 Jul 30, 2015 at 01:37 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #20  
bennyt Says:

She should be happy that chasid didn't want to sit next to her!

Best answer yet!

62

 Jul 30, 2015 at 03:03 AM lazerx Says:

The need here is to understand the difference between a 'chumra' and the halacha.
One is obligated to observe the halacah, but a chumra is something that a person takes on himself but has no right to expect another to suffer from his chumra, rather, instead of inflicting suffering on another, he should just observe the halacha.
In this lies the problem: few understand that what they are doing is a chumra and not halacha. Those who can not differentiate are 'am harezt' in spite of their ability to dress so frumly.

63

 Jul 30, 2015 at 03:37 AM Anonymous Says:

And what if someone refused to sit next to you because you are Jewish? Someone barks orders at others to switch seats so they can sit next to you, a *jew*. You bought your seat and don't want to move. You managed not to get a kicking passenger behind you, your carryons are all stowed and you just want to leave already. You are asked to move because you are a Jew and they don't want to sit next to you.

How would you feel????? Would you cry antisemitism? Want an apology because the airline acquiesced to the others wishes not to sit near you?

Now why the calls that she is a rabid feminist who wants her 5minutes of fame?

64

 Jul 30, 2015 at 04:16 AM Normal Says:

#60 You say men shouldn't look at women. If she is two seats away from him, why can't he look straight ahead and keep whatever chumras he wants. He can not only not look sideways and avoid looking at the woman, he can look straight ahead or in the other direction. Absolute bobamaasos.

65

 Jul 30, 2015 at 04:38 AM BarryLS1 Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

I am sometimes shocked at the comments of some of the bloggers here. Why do you have to dismiss out right if someone follows a more stringent opinion. Did you ever discuss this with a rov. There are differences of opinions if someone can or should sit next to a woman. I have a bigger problem with the woman's attitude. We live in a world where we are expected to respect every person's orientation. So my question is why can't she. But especially my fellow commenters who should know better.

"Why do you have to dismiss out right if someone follows a more stringent opinion"

People are entitled to whatever stringency they want to impose on themselves, the problem with this entire issue is the imposition of your self imposed stringency's on others.

The simple solution is to make arrangements in advance and not make a Chillul Hashem and delay a planeload of people. It surprises me that some Frum travel agent hasn't promoted this type of service.

66

 Jul 30, 2015 at 09:01 AM heyward Says:

unfortunately on my last flight to California the women next to me had a perfume smell like dead fish. By the time i got of the plane i had to order an oxygen mask to survive.

67

 Jul 30, 2015 at 09:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With all the understanding and tolerance, this "ultra-orthodox" man was not truly "machmir". He caused a chilul Hashem, and caused bizyonos for other people. He is entitled to his preferences (which he somehow calls chumros), but does not have the right to impose these on others. I am embarrassed by his disgraceful behavior.

So you say your embarrassed .... of who? You should be embarrassed of yourself for filing such a silly comment that reflects who you are.

68

 Jul 30, 2015 at 11:00 AM The_Beadle Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

And what if someone refused to sit next to you because you are Jewish? Someone barks orders at others to switch seats so they can sit next to you, a *jew*. You bought your seat and don't want to move. You managed not to get a kicking passenger behind you, your carryons are all stowed and you just want to leave already. You are asked to move because you are a Jew and they don't want to sit next to you.

How would you feel????? Would you cry antisemitism? Want an apology because the airline acquiesced to the others wishes not to sit near you?

Now why the calls that she is a rabid feminist who wants her 5minutes of fame?

You are 100% correct.

What most people here don't seem to understand is that to 99.99% of the public to even ask a woman to move because you don't want to sit next to her - even if you ask nicely - comes across as sexist, misogynistic and just plain old weird.

She has every to feel insulted.

69

 Jul 30, 2015 at 11:11 AM Shimon Says:

Reply to #1  
LkwdGuy Says:

Assuming her account is accurate, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior. One who wants to be machmir in this area should simply purchase two seats. I have seen a number of chashuvim do just that. Yes it will make flying much more expensive but there is really no other mentshlicha way to do it. Even asking nicely and sweetly is often perceived as insulting.

You must be crazy!!!!!
And even 2 seats isn't enough, but 3, because there might be women already seated both sides, in middle seats. And even then, can you be sure that those 2 or 3 seats will be given next to each other?

But anyway, if you pay for my extra seats, i will do what you say every time i fly.

You have seen a number of chashuvim do it?
You must be living on a different planet!

Or maybe you are talking about first class seats where you can lay down, and to buy 2 of THOSE alongside each other.
At least it's mentchlech!
A Prime Minister can do that, as he is financed for that.

70

 Jul 30, 2015 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With all the understanding and tolerance, this "ultra-orthodox" man was not truly "machmir". He caused a chilul Hashem, and caused bizyonos for other people. He is entitled to his preferences (which he somehow calls chumros), but does not have the right to impose these on others. I am embarrassed by his disgraceful behavior.

Some "ultra ortrhodox" boys or men, might actually be a little embarrassed to be seated squashed up against girls bodies rubbing up against each other for 11 hours.
I know it's disgraceful behaviour to be embarrassed at a thing like that.
But humans are funny.
Animals are the only normal ones. They don't bother with clothes either. They are much more natural and normal and do not engage in disgusting behaviour. We need to learn from THEM, before we start thinking that we are any better.
I'm emabarrassed by the disgusting behaviour of humans who fly with clothes on.

71

 Jul 30, 2015 at 11:26 AM Ima Gudfoch Says:

So the maybe d'rabbonon this ois vorf ferd put before the d'oraisa of chilul Hashem once again proves our tribe is laden with morons.

72

 Jul 30, 2015 at 11:28 AM Mike Oxlong Says:

The Torah does not forbid men seeing women in public. There was no mechitza at Sinai.

73

 Jul 30, 2015 at 11:07 AM Foncused Says:

If she's gay, what's the problem? This woman is obnoxious and deserves nothing. He asked, she said get lost, zeh hu. He didn't throw a tantrum, but she seems to have.

74

 Jul 30, 2015 at 11:30 AM Todd Lerfondler Says:

I'd rather sit near a woman than a frummy who pulls out a midflight tuna sandwich.

75

 Jul 30, 2015 at 12:04 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #1  
LkwdGuy Says:

Assuming her account is accurate, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior. One who wants to be machmir in this area should simply purchase two seats. I have seen a number of chashuvim do just that. Yes it will make flying much more expensive but there is really no other mentshlicha way to do it. Even asking nicely and sweetly is often perceived as insulting.

I think the best way is to walk all the way back home to canada,such insanity only came on the seen recently it was never like this only a few years ago.

76

 Jul 30, 2015 at 12:06 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #71  
Ima Gudfoch Says:

So the maybe d'rabbonon this ois vorf ferd put before the d'oraisa of chilul Hashem once again proves our tribe is laden with morons.

I would say mindless morons,this is so insane that it boggles the mind,theese uber frummies think the world has to cater to their every whim .

77

 Jul 30, 2015 at 12:19 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #68  
The_Beadle Says:

You are 100% correct.

What most people here don't seem to understand is that to 99.99% of the public to even ask a woman to move because you don't want to sit next to her - even if you ask nicely - comes across as sexist, misogynistic and just plain old weird.

She has every to feel insulted.

The younger generation had no incling in the uber frummer world how to behave properly they think todays generation that the world was always like they perceive it to ask a woman to move was unthinkable just a few years ago today we hear almost everyday about such insane behaviour the yeshivas tottaly neglect to teach Etiquette,they only teach to what pertains to one jew to another the nonjews see this and they become hostile to all the jews what a shame.

78

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:25 PM bennyt/yonosonw/bewhiskered are one and the same Says:

Reply to #20  
bennyt Says:

She should be happy that chasid didn't want to sit next to her!

Get lost, you hateful jerk.

79

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:27 PM Yonosonw hates religious jews Says:

Reply to #51  
yonasonw Says:

Precisely. People like this idiot cry antisemitism at the drop of a hat, and then publicly act like a Jewish boor - demanding that the general public accept that Jews have a right to export and impose our etiquette on them. Embarrassing and shameful.

Yonosonw you are the shame! Judaism doesn't need someone like you as you are more hateful towards religious Jews than an anti Semite is!

80

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
JackC Says:

Let's put the shoe on the other foot.
A Nazi gets on the plane and refuses to sit next to a Jew.

What a stupid comparison, apples and oranges. Religious views are not to be compared to nazis' sick and hateful ideology. You should be ashamed, but you're in good company here. There are a number of people here who unfortunately spew hatred of religious Jews as you do.

81

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
hmmmm Says:

This happened to my wife on a plane to Israel and there was an empty seat between her and the guy. When he saw we werent moving or acquiesing he tried telling the stewardess to get us to move and the stewardess basically told him to go jump in a lake (why he didnt try to move himself I dont know probably because he had an aisle seat he didnt want to give up). the guy proceeded to hold a newspaper opposite her face and then when his hands got tired he built himself what could be best described as a pillow fort (from which he kept on peeking out at us). Keep in mind my wife was dressed tznius and was wearing black stockings.... Her stocking covered knees were revealed for 2 seconds and the guy got all excited and put on tallis and teffilin at 3PM local time. We laughed it off but I can see how someone would get offended by such behavior. I have seen similar behavior on other flights to and from Israel. So yes I definitely believe and understand this story.

Pretty sad that you make light of the fact that your wife's knees were uncovered for ANY amount of time! Obviously this Yid takes his frumkeit more seriously than you do!

82

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Greener Says:

Best answer yet!

Congrats, you've joined the idiotic haters club,

83

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

And what if someone refused to sit next to you because you are Jewish? Someone barks orders at others to switch seats so they can sit next to you, a *jew*. You bought your seat and don't want to move. You managed not to get a kicking passenger behind you, your carryons are all stowed and you just want to leave already. You are asked to move because you are a Jew and they don't want to sit next to you.

How would you feel????? Would you cry antisemitism? Want an apology because the airline acquiesced to the others wishes not to sit near you?

Now why the calls that she is a rabid feminist who wants her 5minutes of fame?

I can't believe how stupid some of the people here are. Do you really not see a difference between someone who doesn't want to violate Halacha by touching (even accidentally, in those crammed sardine can seats) a woman, and a potential Jew hater who might decide his hatred prevents him from wanting to sit near a Jew? How lame can you be? No common sense at all? Or brains are eaten away by hatred of Jews who are frummer than you?

84

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #71  
Ima Gudfoch Says:

So the maybe d'rabbonon this ois vorf ferd put before the d'oraisa of chilul Hashem once again proves our tribe is laden with morons.

Our tribe?! Clearly you're another Jew hater here and not part of our CHOSEN nation! Get lost, lowlife.

85

 Jul 30, 2015 at 02:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #77  
bubii Says:

The younger generation had no incling in the uber frummer world how to behave properly they think todays generation that the world was always like they perceive it to ask a woman to move was unthinkable just a few years ago today we hear almost everyday about such insane behaviour the yeshivas tottaly neglect to teach Etiquette,they only teach to what pertains to one jew to another the nonjews see this and they become hostile to all the jews what a shame.

Unfortunately it's clear you're ignorant in Halacha and frumkeit. Don't ever condemn another Jew for wanting to prevent himself from committing an aveira.

86

 Jul 30, 2015 at 04:30 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

I am sometimes shocked at the comments of some of the bloggers here. Why do you have to dismiss out right if someone follows a more stringent opinion. Did you ever discuss this with a rov. There are differences of opinions if someone can or should sit next to a woman. I have a bigger problem with the woman's attitude. We live in a world where we are expected to respect every person's orientation. So my question is why can't she. But especially my fellow commenters who should know better.

I agree with you in principle. However, if you CHOOSE (and it is a CHOICE) to abide by such chumros, then it is your responsibility to do so in a respectful way that does not inconvenience others. For example, tell the airline IN ADVANCE of your needs so that they may discretely accommodate you without causing any kind of disturbance or delay. Another option is to purchase 2 seats so that you ensure there is an appropriate distance between you and anyone else.

This woman's attitude is in line with her real-world beliefs. She has gown up in a time where for generations women were forced to be subservient to their husbands or other male authority figures. This is no longer acceptable in the modern world. We must be as sensitive to others as we want them to be toward us. Handling this privately with an airline representative at the airport would have been the BEST way to handle it. Waiting to get on the plane and rolling the dice leave the door wide open for creating chillul H".

Now, her suing the airline over it is just nutty and she should be dismissed as a big ol' bag of crazy.

87

 Jul 30, 2015 at 05:59 PM favish Says:

Reply to #43  
yoheved Says:

in all honesty, we are in an age now where there is a heightened sense of discrimination, and although some of it is completely of a non-kosher origin, such as the gay issue, real gender discrimination is very real. i completely understand this woman's point, as many orthodox men do not feel the need to address women with respect, and being that she was not Jewish, i can only imagine the contempt she felt from him. somewhere these ultra-orthodox folks are going to suffer for their inability to address this issue among themselves. being publicly humiliated due to one's gender can have lots of negative repercussions, and this man will be lucky is he doesn't get sued for defamation. My suggestion is that everyone treat everyone else with respect, weather warranted or not, because not to do so is becoming increasingly dangerous, not to mention being unkind. We do not determine halacha among the nations. if we are uncomfortable with something, we have either a choice not to participate in it or pre-arrange it for our needs. but to demand that non-Jews spontaneously re-arrange themselves for us is the height of arrogance and narcissism, traits that have no place in real halacha.

#43 you say 'many orthodox men don't feel the need to address women with respect....' this is a complete fabricated lie... maybe you can say some people don't respect women(which doesn't make sense anyway) among them there might be orthodox men. BUT not because they're orthodox . the holiest tzaddukum talked with respect with women. But you must realize there's a mizvah among the 613 of lo sasuru acrei eyneichem which you seem to be completely ignorant of.

Now most people have seychal and go about it with such. And nobody notices.
So here comes one with a low IQ and does without seychel and you have just as much IQ as him so you attack a whole system of shomrei torah

88

 Jul 30, 2015 at 06:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

Some "ultra ortrhodox" boys or men, might actually be a little embarrassed to be seated squashed up against girls bodies rubbing up against each other for 11 hours.
I know it's disgraceful behaviour to be embarrassed at a thing like that.
But humans are funny.
Animals are the only normal ones. They don't bother with clothes either. They are much more natural and normal and do not engage in disgusting behaviour. We need to learn from THEM, before we start thinking that we are any better.
I'm emabarrassed by the disgusting behaviour of humans who fly with clothes on.

#70 and you decided its disgraceful behavior. 'your credentials.Like one of the taddikum said in such case....'how many avairous were you oiver that you feel its a disgrace'
?

89

 Jul 30, 2015 at 06:14 PM favish Says:

Reply to #71  
Ima Gudfoch Says:

So the maybe d'rabbonon this ois vorf ferd put before the d'oraisa of chilul Hashem once again proves our tribe is laden with morons.

#71 with your pilpul shel shtus on can pilpul away the whole torah. talmu hoyah shehoya metaher es hasheretz b'150 tamim

90

 Jul 30, 2015 at 06:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
hmmmm Says:

This happened to my wife on a plane to Israel and there was an empty seat between her and the guy. When he saw we werent moving or acquiesing he tried telling the stewardess to get us to move and the stewardess basically told him to go jump in a lake (why he didnt try to move himself I dont know probably because he had an aisle seat he didnt want to give up). the guy proceeded to hold a newspaper opposite her face and then when his hands got tired he built himself what could be best described as a pillow fort (from which he kept on peeking out at us). Keep in mind my wife was dressed tznius and was wearing black stockings.... Her stocking covered knees were revealed for 2 seconds and the guy got all excited and put on tallis and teffilin at 3PM local time. We laughed it off but I can see how someone would get offended by such behavior. I have seen similar behavior on other flights to and from Israel. So yes I definitely believe and understand this story.

you sound like y0u belong in the not house. what a fairy tale

91

 Jul 30, 2015 at 06:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Mike Oxlong Says:

The Torah does not forbid men seeing women in public. There was no mechitza at Sinai.

you seem to be ignorant of torah shbal peh or probably don't believein then you r not practicing judaism

92

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