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New York - Feminism, Women, and The Sukkah |
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Debbie Herman of New City and Rabbi Yisroel Goldberg enjoy cookies Tuesday in Chabad of Rockland's portable sukkah in the ShopRite supermarket parking lot in New City. (Angela Gaul/The Journal News)
To best understand the underlying issues, we might gain much by first familiarizing ourselves with a rather famous institution in upstate New York.
The West Point Military Academy, is the U.S. Army’s most famous educational institution. West Point trains more United States Army officers than any other single institution and a high proportion of distinguished American generals have been West Point graduates. It now has some openings for at least two very important positions. They need an instructor for a course in Introduction to Warfighting and an instructor in Fundamentals of Army Operations. These positions are described below.
MS 100 Introduction to Warfighting - is designed to provide cadets with a foundation of the military and tactical knowledge necessary for application during summer Cadet Field Training. Cadets will learn the organization of Maneuver, Fires, and Effects Squads and Platoons as well as the characteristics of their organic weapons systems. They are also exposed to map reading, military analysis, troop leading procedures, pre-combat inspections, and small unit tactics.
MS200 Fundamentals of Army Operations - is designed to hone the skills developed during the Cadets “Plebe” year and focuses on applying those skills using Tactical Decision Making Exercises. Using discussion based scenarios, instructors continue to develop the skills necessary to build strong, confident tactical decision makers that use the fundamental principles of Army doctrine and are able to apply creative thinking and common sense in solving tactical problems.
If world events continue to deteriorate it might be necessary for the United States to implement a draft. In such an event all able-bodied men within a certain age range might be called to serve. The people filling the positions above, however, would be exempt. It would be wrong to characterize their role as trivial or inconsequential. Their role is crucial. Without these people, cadets would be ill-prepared and the nation’s future would be at risk.
Women generally are exempt from time-bound Mitzvos. The reason is that they have been granted the role as the educators of Israel (See Brachos 17a). The commentators explain that the wording in Haggadah of “At P’sach lo – you, teach the fourth child that does not know how to ask” is conjugated in the feminine – because it is the women of Israel that are responsible for the training and educational development of the Jewish people. And like the instructors at West Point, it would be wrong to characterize their role as trivial or inconsequential. Their role is crucial. Without these people, sons and husbands would be ill-prepared and the nation’s future would be at risk. Indeed, we see from the Ksav Sofer (Responsa OC #20) that her role is so paramount that when she assists her husband in his study of Torah she is actually completing his very soul.
Women are also exempt in the Mitzvah of Sukkah (see Tractate Sukkah 28b). We find that quite often women are obligated in specific Mitzvos, such as drinking the four cups of wine on Passover and in the Mitzvos of Chanukah, because “they too were involved in the miracle.” The question arises, however, as to why women were not re-inserted in this Mitzvah because of this reason – that “they too were involved in the miracle?” This question is posed by the Tosafists in Psachim (108b). The Tosafists answer that Sukkah is biblical while the Mitzvah of the four cups of wine is Rabbinic.
Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Mishnayos Megilah 2:4) explains the words of Tosfos in the following manner: The Mitzvos of wine on Passover and Chanukah were a construct of the Rabbis. Therefore, when they initially established them – they also establsihed them for women. However, regarding the laws that were of a biblical nature, they never created an additional obligation for women. Rabbi Eiger’s words are in strong contrast to the characterization of the Rabbis as being misogynistic.
The Mishne Halachos (11:514) explains that the entire Mitzvah of Sukkos was given as a rectification for the sin of not wanting to go directly into the land. Because of that sin we wandered for forty years in the desert and were thus in need of the Sukkah booths. However, the daughters of Tzlafchad were different. They, like other women in Israel, wanted nothing else more than to enter and possess the land. Therefore, there was no need for them to partake in the Mitzvah because their pristine behavior did not need a rectification – not then and not for all time.
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Read Comments (64) — Post Yours »
1
Oct 12, 2008 at 11:57 AM Avraham Abba Says:
My wife and daughters have been helpful in the building of our sucah with me in the past
and I am iy"H looking forward to their help now and in future years if Hashem doesn't yet send Moshiach by then.
Since extremely great and wise people disagreed about this issue , I will add the extra mitzvah of simcha which is is clearly magnified in the Torah for Sucos, and say, "It gives our family simcha to build together in the following of the Torah's command, "Vehayeesa ACH samayach."
I consider this to be a family mitzvah whether or not that includes females or males or both.
2
Oct 12, 2008 at 12:11 PM frummer than thou Says:
shalom bayis trumps all.
that is "torah true" the rest is just superficial fluff by some people who seek to promote themselves as frummer than g-d himself.
3
Oct 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM Heshy Says:
Why dont all these man hating feminist stop trying to observe laws that dont apply to them and instead observe what they are suppose to keep starting with dressing modestly and behaving like normal women.
4
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:10 PM oh please Says:
get off the high horse heshy theres nothing wrong about women eating in the succah as much as they want to.
5
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:12 PM Peerim Toirah Says:
The Torah says "And you shall be a happy Brother"(laafukei sister). Thats why women should stay OUT.
6
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:16 PM Anonymous Says:
Well, my wife and daughters are eating the yom tov meals in the sukkah, as most observant women do, - when there is enough place foir the whole family, of course - although they're also allwed to eat outside the sukkah, they do have a mitzva when they do eat in the sukkah, and they make the brocha of "laisheiv basukkah".
happy holiday!
7
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:
WELL SAID HESHY!!
8
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:
There anon #6 hope you dont say Amen cuz its a Berucheh Le'vaatuleh! Why doesnt ur wife put on Tefilen as well?
9
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:36 PM Litvak Says:
Women are also excempt from hearing Shofar on Rosh Hashana - yet shuls, even haraidi shteibels, have a packed women's section. There is a special beauty when one accepts a mitzvah, even though one is not required. An example is a Ger who takes on Torah, has a special chashivus by HKB"H.
It would be great if women start with "their" mitzvos, like baking Challah and doing the mitzvah of Hafroshas Challah. This is a beautiful mitzvah which many ignore, in favour of bakery bought challahs.
Likewise, being mehader in wearing full sheitels, without exposing any of their hair. A beautiful mitzvah that many women "cut corners" on by leaving exposed hair, or wearing tichels that expose their front hair.
And of course, lighting Shabbos candles in the proper zman, a mitzvah that starts from when they are young girls, as was the minhag in Brisk (unfortunately, many think it's a Chabad shtik, but we had this minhag way beore they "stole" it from us).
And of course, Tahas hamishpocha...
These mitzvos are all connected to Chet Eitz Hadas when Chava brought darkness to the world, and is the source of all negativity.
So yes, women can undertake extra mitzvos, by all means, but maybe they should start with the obligatory unique mitzvos that they already have, before taking on the extras.
10
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:34 PM Anonymous Says:
This was an excellent article and the mushul with west point is very enlitening. It's emes!
11
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:
I like the Mishna haluchos pshat - I will tell it to my wife and daughters imirtzhashem. Very very nice
12
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:56 PM Mikha'el M. Says:
The Rambam says a non-Jew may do any mitzvah in the Torah (save Shabbat and Talmud Torah), and receive reward. If a non-Jew who is patur from ALL mitzvot can nevertheless do the mitzvot and receive reward, kal vahomer a women, who is patur in only some mitzvot! And for Ashkenazim, it has long been established that women may say the related brachot.
As for tefillin, this is something special: since it requires bodily cleanliness, which is difficult to maintain, it is risky and ill-advised for someone to wear tefillin when not required, and thus risk wearing them without proper bodily cleanliness. For this reason, even men wear tefillin for but a short period, and not all day. Non-Jews are technically permitted to wear tefillin, but most rabbis are reluctant for them either to wear tefillin.
13
Oct 12, 2008 at 02:16 PM Anonymous Says:
michael - Rav Moshe Feinstein says you are reading the rambam all wrong in a teshuva to professor shepansky from Brooklyn College. It is in the beginning of Igros Moshe YD #2 or 3
14
Oct 12, 2008 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:
great article - thanks again vin!
15
Oct 12, 2008 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:
Harav schwab in his pirush on davening (artscroll publications) explains the brocha of shlo asni isha. One point he says that women did not have to learn torah to become nivios. Bottom line is we each have our unique role in creation. The men may be "luckier" that they can do more mitzvos but the womens role in building the home may be more "important."
16
Oct 12, 2008 at 02:02 PM Anonymous Says:
anon #8, please check the shulchan oruch, or consult a rav before posting..
17
Oct 12, 2008 at 02:38 PM to #6 Says:
peerim is over learn to spell and you wouldn't be so krum.
18
Oct 12, 2008 at 03:08 PM Oy Gevald Says:
“ The Torah says "And you shall be a happy Brother"(laafukei sister). Thats why women should stay OUT. ”
Whoa! That is Purim Torah all right.
More like "Ach ind Vey" to me.
19
Oct 12, 2008 at 03:05 PM Anonymous Says:
If the family minhag is that the women dont eat in the succa FOR WHATEVER REASON than so be it. Why cant you people trust minhagim instead of blaming it on other reasons. Granted the minhag could have been started by a "shtus" such as there was only room in the succa for the husband or for the husband and the male sons, but how are the great grandchildren of generations gone by supposed to know that?? I think everyone will be modeh that there is no halocha specificaly stating that women ARE NOT ALLOWED to eat in the succa which means they COULD depending on the minhagim. For those of you clowns 'shrying' against those who dont have their ayshes chayil in the succa, that is something you would never understand.
Its just something else to buzz about as if this is the worst thing in the world.
20
Oct 12, 2008 at 03:34 PM Anonymous Says:
Women are the educators of Israel the article states. This is an extremely important role within the faith, one which anyone I would gather would be honoured and proud to fulfill. Additionaly, I have learned in the past that women are on a much higher spiritual level than men therefore it the men, who require additional commandments in order to become closer to G-d. Stands to reason then that every morning, one of the very first things a man says is thank you G-d for not making me a woman. Someone please explain the hypocrisy.
21
Oct 12, 2008 at 03:51 PM schifrah Says:
This is America and women have equal rights.They are intitled to eat in the sukah just as men. There has been talk in the feminist community of filing a class action suit against any shul that does not allow women equal access to the sukah.Beware....the lawyers are coming.
22
Oct 12, 2008 at 04:11 PM Vote4USA Says:
Probably has something to do with thanking God for not making me a woman every day of our lives. That verse has never been fully explained in my yeshivos, only the fact that we don't have to go through the pain of childbirth.
23
Oct 12, 2008 at 04:16 PM Anonymous Says:
to number 20 - soldiers also say thank G-d that I am not in supply or logistics - people need to feel good about themselves and for men - their neshama feels better that they have a 613 role instead of a training role. no hypocrisy.. Just as an aside, people, whenever there is a Torah based article we should try to keep the conversation holy - as if we were in a shiur maybe.. how about it? It is just after Yom Kippur.. Remember darcheha darchai noam and there are nisht unzer that read things here too.
24
Oct 12, 2008 at 04:45 PM Anonymous Says:
The analogy to the open positions at West Point simply doesn't work. These are job openings for which people can chose to apply or chose not to apply. Women and men should not have any choices according to the author. This is not meant to denigrate a women's traditional role as wife and mother, but not all women are wives and mothers or at least not for good portions of their lives. Some men are better cooks, parents and housekeepers than women. Stereotyping and assigning roles based solely on gender prevents people from living up to their full g-d given potential.
25
Oct 12, 2008 at 04:42 PM sukkahmom Says:
i love being in our sukkah! such kedusha!
26
Oct 12, 2008 at 04:57 PM Kop Doktar Says:
Rabboissai, The minimum size of a sukkah is to fit "rosho v'rubo" (head and most of body). Why "rubo" (most of body) and not "kulo" (entire body)? Because the shvanz doesn't belong in the sukkah!
27
Oct 12, 2008 at 05:07 PM Get your Kop Examined Says:
“ Rabboissai, The minimum size of a sukkah is to fit "rosho v'rubo" (head and most of body). Why "rubo" (most of body) and not "kulo" (entire body)? Because the shvanz doesn't belong in the sukkah! ”
That's the MINIMUM requirement, if your cheap.
The proper performance is to put your ENTIRE body in the Mitzvah.
28
Oct 12, 2008 at 05:52 PM Babishka Says:
If R"L a Yid lives in a small apartment and has only a very small area, like one open balcony or laundry porch, then women can step aside. However if one is blessed with a large porch or back yard and has the ability to construct a large comfortable sukkah, then women are obligated to eat there and enjoy the mitzvah of leshev b'sukkah!
29
Oct 12, 2008 at 07:39 PM Anonymous Says:
Dear 24,
You've got a good point, but the author probably meant the analogy as a generalization. Your statement of "Women and men should not have any choices according to the author" is putting words in the author's mouth. women do have the choice - they can opt to do the Mitzvos IF THEY WANT TO.. the point is they have a choice according to Torah law. If they want to stay at home - they can (and they don't have to feel guilty about it.) You are right about men though - they don't have the choice - they have to serve regardless of other things. Not all women are wives and mothers or at least not for good portions of their lives. That is true, and that's why the author says they have a choice.
30
Oct 12, 2008 at 08:23 PM tzoorba Says:
“ If R"L a Yid lives in a small apartment and has only a very small area, like one open balcony or laundry porch, then women can step aside. However if one is blessed with a large porch or back yard and has the ability to construct a large comfortable sukkah, then women are obligated to eat there and enjoy the mitzvah of leshev b'sukkah! ”
Succah is a mitzvas aseh sheahazman grama and women are not obligated at all.
31
Oct 12, 2008 at 08:50 PM tzoorba Says:
“ If R"L a Yid lives in a small apartment and has only a very small area, like one open balcony or laundry porch, then women can step aside. However if one is blessed with a large porch or back yard and has the ability to construct a large comfortable sukkah, then women are obligated to eat there and enjoy the mitzvah of leshev b'sukkah! ”
Rov klal Yisroel today do not have the minhag of having unmarried girls light candles. It would be inappropriate for an individual or family to adopt this minhag on their own if their kehilla doesn't do it. Guidance should be sought from a Rav before starting this.
32
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:02 PM Anonymous Says:
The article's basic point is that the people have been calling Torah misoginistic. These types of articles are good because they show the truth and beuaty of Torah. Keep up the good work!
33
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:26 PM Anonymous Says:
You can thank feminism for increased salaries that women now make---this way, the men can learn and the women can work, raise the children, cook, clean, etc.
34
Oct 13, 2008 at 12:16 AM Charlie Hall Says:
"If world events continue to deteriorate it might be necessary for the United States to implement a draft. In such an event all able-bodied men within a certain age range might be called to serve."
Not just men. My wife is *currently* subject to the draft, as she is a doctor and the military draft for physicians and other health care providers is still on the books.
And Litvak, we men are equally chayev in taking challah and lighting Shabat candles.
35
Oct 13, 2008 at 03:13 AM Rov Says:
“ Rov klal Yisroel today do not have the minhag of having unmarried girls light candles. It would be inappropriate for an individual or family to adopt this minhag on their own if their kehilla doesn't do it. Guidance should be sought from a Rav before starting this. ”
As a Rov, I advise that there is nothing wrong in taking on this mitzvah. Over 30 years ago I have discussed this with Rav Gedaliah Felder z"l (Author of Yesodei Yeshurun) and other poskim and all agree: single girls can light shabbos & yom tov candles with a brocha.
36
Oct 13, 2008 at 03:08 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Women are the educators of Israel the article states. This is an extremely important role within the faith, one which anyone I would gather would be honoured and proud to fulfill. Additionaly, I have learned in the past that women are on a much higher spiritual level than men therefore it the men, who require additional commandments in order to become closer to G-d. Stands to reason then that every morning, one of the very first things a man says is thank you G-d for not making me a woman. Someone please explain the hypocrisy. ”
Men thank g-d that he hasn't given us such high expectations and such great responsibility as He imposed on women. Men could never deal with it! (Example, childbirth - which man could deal with delivering a baby from his body?!)
37
Oct 13, 2008 at 03:02 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Harav schwab in his pirush on davening (artscroll publications) explains the brocha of shlo asni isha. One point he says that women did not have to learn torah to become nivios. Bottom line is we each have our unique role in creation. The men may be "luckier" that they can do more mitzvos but the womens role in building the home may be more "important." ”
I'd like to know why we don't make a brocha shelo asani behaima?
(Maybe for some it would be a bracha l'vatalah).
But whatever pshat in shelo asani ishah, it must be placed in context of the trilogy: shelo asani goy...oved...isha.
38
Oct 13, 2008 at 03:00 AM Anonymous Says:
“ shalom bayis trumps all.
that is "torah true" the rest is just superficial fluff by some people who seek to promote themselves as frummer than g-d himself. ”
I assure you that one cannot eat from g-d's shchita, it would be nevaylah, since He is not qualified al pi din to shecht. Does that mean I'm frummer than g-d? No! I only follow HIS rules.
39
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The Rambam says a non-Jew may do any mitzvah in the Torah (save Shabbat and Talmud Torah), and receive reward. If a non-Jew who is patur from ALL mitzvot can nevertheless do the mitzvot and receive reward, kal vahomer a women, who is patur in only some mitzvot! And for Ashkenazim, it has long been established that women may say the related brachot.
As for tefillin, this is something special: since it requires bodily cleanliness, which is difficult to maintain, it is risky and ill-advised for someone to wear tefillin when not required, and thus risk wearing them without proper bodily cleanliness. For this reason, even men wear tefillin for but a short period, and not all day. Non-Jews are technically permitted to wear tefillin, but most rabbis are reluctant for them either to wear tefillin. ”
Women cannot wear tfillin or tzizis because it is considered men's clothing (Lo Tilbash kli gever - as explained in Targum Yonoson on this posuk).
Tfilllin is an "os" - sign for yidden and therefore a Goy cannot wear them.
40
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:54 AM Anonymous Says:
“ There anon #6 hope you dont say Amen cuz its a Berucheh Le'vaatuleh! Why doesnt ur wife put on Tefilen as well? ”
Rashi's daughters wore teffilin, as did many great women of yesteryear.
41
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:53 AM Machmir Says:
“ Well, my wife and daughters are eating the yom tov meals in the sukkah, as most observant women do, - when there is enough place foir the whole family, of course - although they're also allwed to eat outside the sukkah, they do have a mitzva when they do eat in the sukkah, and they make the brocha of "laisheiv basukkah".
happy holiday! ”
Some chassidim eat in the sukka even when it is pouring rain. I hope you won't force your wife and daughters to remain in the rain.
I heard of a chossid shoyta but not of a chasida (except for the unclean fowl).
42
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:50 AM Chumrah of the Week Says:
“ My wife and daughters have been helpful in the building of our sucah with me in the past
and I am iy"H looking forward to their help now and in future years if Hashem doesn't yet send Moshiach by then.
Since extremely great and wise people disagreed about this issue , I will add the extra mitzvah of simcha which is is clearly magnified in the Torah for Sucos, and say, "It gives our family simcha to build together in the following of the Torah's command, "Vehayeesa ACH samayach."
I consider this to be a family mitzvah whether or not that includes females or males or both. ”
Some hold that your wife and children shouldn't put on the schach, since they are not obligated in the mitzvah. (Likewise, children under bar mitzvah).
If they did, you should slightly lift the schach, to be choshesh for these opinions.
43
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:47 AM Kabbalah Says:
“ That's the MINIMUM requirement, if your cheap.
The proper performance is to put your ENTIRE body in the Mitzvah. ”
Although tzitzis is a makif - a mitzvah that encompasses the person, still it doesn't include the entire person. Sukka is called a true makif because the entire person, even the soil on his shoes are enclothed in this mitzvah.
Having said that, one must still ponder if a shvantz is part of the person or some added appendage that may be excluded even from such a lofty makif.
44
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:42 AM Pshat Says:
“ I like the Mishna haluchos pshat - I will tell it to my wife and daughters imirtzhashem. Very very nice ”
The Mishana Halochos doesn't sit well with the explicit reason that the Torah gives: Lmaan yedu dorosaichen ki bsukos hoshavti es bnei yisroel, that hashem had us dwell in sukkos when we left mitzrayim (either sukkos mamash or the ananei hakovod).
Indeed, it is this kavana that is an obligation to think about when eating in the sukka on the 1st night.
45
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:36 AM Ponovitcher Says:
“ If R"L a Yid lives in a small apartment and has only a very small area, like one open balcony or laundry porch, then women can step aside. However if one is blessed with a large porch or back yard and has the ability to construct a large comfortable sukkah, then women are obligated to eat there and enjoy the mitzvah of leshev b'sukkah! ”
Their "obligation" is not a personal one, but to enhance the mitzvah of the men by participating as a family, which is k'aiyn taduru.
46
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:27 AM Aishes Chayil Says:
“ Succah is a mitzvas aseh sheahazman grama and women are not obligated at all. ”
Yet, a woman can make a brocha of "leshev b'sukah' and say "v'tzivonu" - commanded us!!
47
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:21 AM Litvak Says:
“ "If world events continue to deteriorate it might be necessary for the United States to implement a draft. In such an event all able-bodied men within a certain age range might be called to serve."
Not just men. My wife is *currently* subject to the draft, as she is a doctor and the military draft for physicians and other health care providers is still on the books.
And Litvak, we men are equally chayev in taking challah and lighting Shabat candles.
”
Surely you are aware that women have priority over men when it comes to lighting shabbos candles for the family.
It's "their" special mitzvah. But you are right, if the lady of the house cannot light, then the man is obligated.
It says in seforim that the name Chana stands for: Chalah, Nidah, Hadlokas HaNeros - the 3 special mitzvos assigned to women (although, as you point out, men are also obligated in them).
48
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:14 AM Litvak Says:
“ Rov klal Yisroel today do not have the minhag of having unmarried girls light candles. It would be inappropriate for an individual or family to adopt this minhag on their own if their kehilla doesn't do it. Guidance should be sought from a Rav before starting this. ”
We Briskers have had this minhag of young girls lighting shabbos and yom tov candles for many doros as attested to us by the Family of the Soloveitchiks.
49
Oct 13, 2008 at 02:07 AM matzahlocal101 Says:
#5,
Very Funny.
----
#12,
Please the Rambam again. A goy is chaiyev meisah for any commandment done because it is a commandment.
------
In Chabad we are very liberal in this respect. We feel reform and conservative woman Rabbis are completely equal to their male counterparts. As far equality goes, it absurd that woman reform rabbis put on tefillin in order to be equal to their male congregants that don't put on tefillin. Let's make everything fair. When men can have babies, woman can put on tefillin, fair?
50
Oct 13, 2008 at 01:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ That's the MINIMUM requirement, if your cheap.
The proper performance is to put your ENTIRE body in the Mitzvah. ”
I am so sorry for you that you have a wife as a 'shvantz'. Maybe its your only time of the yr you have the opportunity to eat in peace...
51
Oct 13, 2008 at 12:25 AM sorrycharlie Says:
actually although we are equally chayav - they have precedence over us and a man is forbidden from taking candle lighting away from her - so one could say they are more chayav
52
Oct 13, 2008 at 12:56 AM tzoorba Says:
“ "If world events continue to deteriorate it might be necessary for the United States to implement a draft. In such an event all able-bodied men within a certain age range might be called to serve."
Not just men. My wife is *currently* subject to the draft, as she is a doctor and the military draft for physicians and other health care providers is still on the books.
And Litvak, we men are equally chayev in taking challah and lighting Shabat candles.
”
Both men and women have a chiyuv of challa and hadlakas haner. However, in a normal family this obligation is greater for the woman. The mishna says in Shabbos 31b that Women die in childbirth for 3 possible sins; because they are not careful in Nida, Challa and lighting candles. The gemara discusses why women are punished for these things.
Rashi on 32a says women are more obligated for challa and hadlakas haner because Chava destroyed the challa of the world and she also extinguished the light of the world. Additionally, they are practically more suited for it because they do the baking and take care of the house.
53
Oct 13, 2008 at 08:23 AM tzoorba Says:
“ As a Rov, I advise that there is nothing wrong in taking on this mitzvah. Over 30 years ago I have discussed this with Rav Gedaliah Felder z"l (Author of Yesodei Yeshurun) and other poskim and all agree: single girls can light shabbos & yom tov candles with a brocha. ”
Thank you for this information. What kind of a din does this have? Is there a din of mehadrin for nairos shabbos? Chinuch wouldn't apply to girls that are over 12.
What is your opinion in terms of girls lighting Chanuka licht?
54
Oct 13, 2008 at 09:31 AM Rov Says:
“ Thank you for this information. What kind of a din does this have? Is there a din of mehadrin for nairos shabbos? Chinuch wouldn't apply to girls that are over 12.
What is your opinion in terms of girls lighting Chanuka licht? ”
Re: Chanuka licht, although some have the minhag that girls light, since the ikar hadlaka for the family is done by men (and not the wives) there is little purpose for girls to light their own menorah.
Re: Chinuch past bas mitzvah, an issue that we were mifalpel among the poskim (I'm talking around 30 years ago). Some wanted to say that there is a version of chinuch that can apply even past bar/bas mitzvah (and they had rayos). The concensus was that past bas mitzvah the lighting is not b'geder chinuch but b'geder chiyuv.
There is a rayah from Rivka Imeinu, before Yitzchok took her l'isha, v'yevieha el ohel Sorah - Yitzchok saw that Rivka's shabbos licht burned an entire week. We see that Rivka was noheg to light shabbos candles (prior to nisuin). [Although she was 3 years old, she may have had a din of a na'arah / gedolah].
I don't think this is the best forum to discuss lomdus - but B"H many postings are divrei shtus, while we are being marbitz Torah, which is a great zchus for us, v'hivdilonu min ha'to'im.
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Oct 13, 2008 at 09:49 AM Rov Says:
“ We Briskers have had this minhag of young girls lighting shabbos and yom tov candles for many doros as attested to us by the Family of the Soloveitchiks. ”
Aside from the Briskers, there were many other kihilos that girls light shabbos candles in previous generations. I was told by eidus ne'emonim that among others: Belz and Bobov etc. Certainly Chabad has no monopoly on this ancient minhag!
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Oct 13, 2008 at 10:24 AM Milhouse Says:
“ #5,
Very Funny.
----
#12,
Please the Rambam again. A goy is chaiyev meisah for any commandment done because it is a commandment.
------
In Chabad we are very liberal in this respect. We feel reform and conservative woman Rabbis are completely equal to their male counterparts. As far equality goes, it absurd that woman reform rabbis put on tefillin in order to be equal to their male congregants that don't put on tefillin. Let's make everything fair. When men can have babies, woman can put on tefillin, fair? ”
Your response to #12 is pure amhoratzus. You read the Rambam again - he says explicitly that a goy is entitled to adopt ANY MITZVAH except talmud torah and shabbos. He does NOT exclude even tefilin! It's clear that he held a goy can put on tefilin, AS A MITZVAH, and receive sechar for it. With regard to sukkah, we have an explicit posuk that the goyim will accept this mitzvah (though the gemoro predicts that they then won't keep it).
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Oct 13, 2008 at 10:20 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Yet, a woman can make a brocha of "leshev b'sukah' and say "v'tzivonu" - commanded us!! ”
Only Ashkenazim allow this, "la'asos nachas ruach" for the women. Sefardim don't allow it for any mitzvah in which they're not obligated, including krias shema.
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Oct 13, 2008 at 10:17 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Rashi's daughters wore teffilin, as did many great women of yesteryear. ”
This is a pure bobbe mayse. There is no evidence whatsoever that Rashi's daughters wore tefilin. The only woman I'm aware of who wore tefilin was Michal. If you know of any other "great women of yesteryear" who did so, please name them.
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Oct 13, 2008 at 10:15 AM Milhouse Says:
“ Some hold that your wife and children shouldn't put on the schach, since they are not obligated in the mitzvah. (Likewise, children under bar mitzvah).
If they did, you should slightly lift the schach, to be choshesh for these opinions. ”
Amhoratzus. It's a clear din that even a goy can put the schach up. (OC 635)
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Oct 13, 2008 at 12:21 PM tzoorba Says:
“ Re: Chanuka licht, although some have the minhag that girls light, since the ikar hadlaka for the family is done by men (and not the wives) there is little purpose for girls to light their own menorah.
Re: Chinuch past bas mitzvah, an issue that we were mifalpel among the poskim (I'm talking around 30 years ago). Some wanted to say that there is a version of chinuch that can apply even past bar/bas mitzvah (and they had rayos). The concensus was that past bas mitzvah the lighting is not b'geder chinuch but b'geder chiyuv.
There is a rayah from Rivka Imeinu, before Yitzchok took her l'isha, v'yevieha el ohel Sorah - Yitzchok saw that Rivka's shabbos licht burned an entire week. We see that Rivka was noheg to light shabbos candles (prior to nisuin). [Although she was 3 years old, she may have had a din of a na'arah / gedolah].
I don't think this is the best forum to discuss lomdus - but B"H many postings are divrei shtus, while we are being marbitz Torah, which is a great zchus for us, v'hivdilonu min ha'to'im.
”
I don't understand the proof from Rivka Imeinu. Before she was married she was like any single girl that is staying at someone else's house that has a chiyuv of hadlaka.
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Oct 13, 2008 at 01:15 PM Rov Says:
“ I don't understand the proof from Rivka Imeinu. Before she was married she was like any single girl that is staying at someone else's house that has a chiyuv of hadlaka.
”
Remember, she was staying in the home of Avrohom and Yitzchok who were mikayem all the mitzvos including d'rabbonon. She did not suffice being yo'tzeh with their hadloka, but light her own shabbos candles.
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Oct 13, 2008 at 01:13 PM Rov Says:
“ This is a pure bobbe mayse. There is no evidence whatsoever that Rashi's daughters wore tefilin. The only woman I'm aware of who wore tefilin was Michal. If you know of any other "great women of yesteryear" who did so, please name them. ”
Regarding Micha bas Shaul who wore teffilin, Eruvin 96a, this is cited by the Beit Yoseph OC 38. The Iggerot Moshe OC 2:2 discusses the situation with Micha.
Aside from the legend of rashi's daughters donning teffilin (this is a legend and like all great legends, there is room for error), we are told that also the first and second wife of Chaim ibn Attar and the Maiden of Ludmir.
Sefer Hachinuch writes that if a women wishes to don tefillin she may and receives heavenly reward for doing so (Mitzvah 421).
The 18th century chief rabbis of Jerusalem Rabbi Yisrael Yakov Alghazi and his son Rabbi Yomtov Alghazi encouraged women's use of tefillin.
Having said that, the Rama rules for Ashkenazim that even if a woman wishes to be strict upon herself by wearing tefillin, it should be strongly discouraged (Orach Chayim 38:3) .
The Targum Yonasan was also cited. Indeed, the Kaf hachaim cites Targum Yonasan (at Devorim 22:5) , who when translating the biblical prohibition of not wearing clothing worn by the opposite gender, interprets this to mean that women are forbidden from wearing tefillin.
The Mahram strongly opposed women from wearing teffillin because of guf noki.
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Oct 13, 2008 at 03:28 PM tzoorba Says:
“ Remember, she was staying in the home of Avrohom and Yitzchok who were mikayem all the mitzvos including d'rabbonon. She did not suffice being yo'tzeh with their hadloka, but light her own shabbos candles. ”
Yes but if I go to someone's house and I have my own sleeping quarters, wouldn't I light for myself even though they light?
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Oct 15, 2008 at 10:06 PM Milhouse Says:
“ Yes but if I go to someone's house and I have my own sleeping quarters, wouldn't I light for myself even though they light? ”
Not if you're their guest, and therefore temporarily part of the household. You only have to light your own (or pay for a share in their lighting) if you're a lodger, and your room is your own reshus where the landlord can't come in without your permission. Then it becomes your responsibility. But a shabbos guest does not have to light. Women have a custom, though, that if they are someone's guests for shabbos they light together with their hostess; technically they are not performing their own mitzvah, but rather helping the hostess perform her mitzvah.
The same applies if you're a guest for Pesach - you have no obligation to search your host's home for chametz, even in the bedroom he's given you, but if you like you can help him with his mitzvah to search.