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Jerusalem - Segregation in Meah Shearim for Simchat Beit Hashoeva Festivities |
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The water-drawing festival is a time-honored tradition held in the Hasidic courts of the capital for decades. The celebrations are a known crowd draw, with some 15,000 people visiting the events every night, in the past few years.
The last two years have also seen Meah Shearim's streets divided into men and women's galleries for the sake of chastity; but this year's festivities have been clouded by a demand made by the extreme groups within the neighborhood's community, such as the Sicarii, which demand women be kept out of the festival altogether.
Some of the splinter groups have even gone as far as threatening to forcibly prevent women from entering the area; gathering some 2,000 signatures to that effect and threatening to use "a foul-smelling chemical agent" to drive people away.
A pashkevil (religious flyer) titled "Enough!", which was hung throughout the neighborhood over the past week, declared that "the residents of the Mea Shearim neighborhood hereby inform all the residents of the Holy Land and the visitors coming to celebrate Sukkot in the holy city of Jerusalem, that our neighborhood is not a tourist center.
"Let it be made clear that this year we will not allow tourists and visitors to stroll in our streets at all hours of the night, under any circumstances."
Concerns over possible riots have led to several joint meetings between officials from the chastity squads and the Hassidic synagogues, as the matter was even brought to the attention of the Orthodox Righteous Court of Law.
The court ruled that the festivities would end each nigh, no later than 12:30 am, instead of by 2:30 am, as they did in past years.
The court further ruled that the women's gallery would be restricted to the wives and daughters of the city's various religious courts, who would require a special permit to attend. Visitors will not be allowed in the women's gallery.
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Read Comments (32) — Post Yours »
1
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:43 AM anon Says:
thats really sick - in the bad way. a special permit? jeeeez
2
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:40 AM not so chassideshe Says:
Firstly, "segregation" is not the word we use when we separate men and women. Does the author of this article attend "Segregated weddings"?
Secondly, it is their neighborhood, and they are fully untitled to want it not to become a tourist attraction, and to keep their standards, whatever they may be.
If this was an Amish community asking people to respect their customs, people would comment, "oh, how nice" This article is just another bit of chareidi bashing.
3
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:36 AM Anonymous Says:
Shame on them, who do they think they are barring women from seeing this. the former and future bais hamikdosh had a Special ezras noshim so that women could also see the beauty. are they (trying to be) holier/frummer? That's very selfish allowing only their wives and daughters to see. WE NEED ACHDUS TO BRING MOSHIACH!!!!
4
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:46 AM willie Says:
I'm suing them for racial discrimination, use of abusive material.... but when they need money they run to us.
5
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:55 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Firstly, "segregation" is not the word we use when we separate men and women. Does the author of this article attend "Segregated weddings"?
Secondly, it is their neighborhood, and they are fully untitled to want it not to become a tourist attraction, and to keep their standards, whatever they may be.
If this was an Amish community asking people to respect their customs, people would comment, "oh, how nice" This article is just another bit of chareidi bashing. ”
This is a very bad example. The Amish would never threaten outsiders or use foul-smelling chemicals to chase away people.
6
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:58 AM Bewildered Says:
The fast BEHA"B, after the yomim tovim was made specifically as TESHUVA for mixed crowds walking the streets during Yom Tov.
Why in the world didn't our sages ASSER ALL WOMAN from the streets in order to avoid TAARUVES and having to fast?
Obviously, women are human beings who need to be treated with respect and dignity and allowed to see, hear, etc. just like men. However if by chance some sinned, our sages gave us a FAST day for TESHUVA! Not ASSER, ASSER, ASSER!
UNDERSTAND?
7
Oct 12, 2008 at 10:05 AM Formerjew Says:
Too many things forbidden unnecessarily, THE RESULT: Abusive people, others go off derech...
8
Oct 12, 2008 at 10:37 AM Babishka Says:
Is it OK for me and my daughters to attend as long as we wear a one-eyed abaya?
9
Oct 12, 2008 at 10:58 AM ExOrthodox Says:
OK! So let's say NO WOMEN on meah shearim. instead they go to watch jewish films.HEY! BUT WAIT! IT'S BEEN BANNED! So wat are they expected to do, wash toilets???
10
Oct 12, 2008 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Is it OK for me and my daughters to attend as long as we wear a one-eyed abaya? ”
no u need to wear the gas mask tichel.
11
Oct 12, 2008 at 11:22 AM Yasher Koach Says:
I am all for this! It is THERE neighborhood and THERE children and THERE families which are under attack from outside parties that ATTACK their way of frumkite. I for one wouldnt want my family to be inundated by outside tourists (many of them goyim) with video cameras taking pictures and making loud catcalls as though they were at a zoo and we were an odd attraction. So for those of you opposed to this tell me how exactly this affects you directly, or does it just insult your personal sensitivities?
12
Oct 12, 2008 at 11:23 AM Sicarii? Says:
I heard a bit about these tznius gangs before, but I never realized how
hardcore these guys are? Sicarii? Are they available for contract killings as well
or will they only stab ladies without stockings?
13
Oct 12, 2008 at 11:52 AM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:
Sorry, cannot defend this narishkeit.
Remember, keep turning "right" and you'll end up in the same place as turning "left" would have led you.
The Eleventh Commandment is Thou Shalt Not Be an Idiot.
14
Oct 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM Anonymous Says:
all of this is reactionary! no one can possibly argue these actions are mandated by halacha, they are just taking many many measures to protect their community. and when all communities perceive a threat they are forced to take action.
15
Oct 12, 2008 at 01:26 PM Joe Says:
I understand them not wanting people coming in, and I respect. But for that matter when they go somwhere and people do not welcome them why are those people Antisemites and Jew Haters. There is a saying in yiddish "vus far a git morgen aza git yur" No wander the whole wide world hates religious jews. And they are the ones that are bringing it upon themselves.
16
Oct 12, 2008 at 03:11 PM Anonymous Says:
its about time. the simchas beis hashoeva has turned into the simchas bas hatoayva. tis disgusting what goes on at some of these places. at least in MS they are willing to deal with it. if you dont like it then GO SOMEPLACE ELSE!
17
Oct 12, 2008 at 03:42 PM wow!! Says:
chabads simchas beis hashoeiva being attacked now this!! and lipa!! wow!!! this has goto stop!!! what happened to simple education!
18
Oct 12, 2008 at 04:47 PM yona schimel Says:
Why are we all going crazy? We request tolerance from others but we are the most intolerant.Shame on us. We drive people of the derech. May G-d save us from ourselves.
19
Oct 12, 2008 at 05:05 PM brit Says:
So why go, after watching some r' arelach goons beat up a mir bochor for doing who knows what at their simchas beis hashoeva i said i'd never go back
and when they come collecting from me i tell 'em as such
you dont want me in your neigborhood and you;re not getting my money either
time to boycott them, dont go to their parties and dont support them
20
Oct 12, 2008 at 05:17 PM bigwheeel Says:
“ Too many things forbidden unnecessarily, THE RESULT: Abusive people, others go off derech... ”
What about you! can we believe your marquee?!
21
Oct 12, 2008 at 05:41 PM Masmid Says:
“ I heard a bit about these tznius gangs before, but I never realized how
hardcore these guys are? Sicarii? Are they available for contract killings as well
or will they only stab ladies without stockings? ”
I am all for it!!! it's their way of life, YOU would not like them to come to your neighborhood and close off the streets and tell you what to do, so what gives you the right to bother them,,,
B.T.W. I am one of them,,, who is very bothered by the way ALL of the visiting guests to Jerusalem for Succos are behaving in our neighborhood............
WHY CAN'T YOU ALL STAY NEXT TO THE HOTELS OR GO TOURING, WHY SPEND TIME WITH UN-TZNIOUS KIND OF CLOTHING TO HAVE A BAD INFLUENCE ON OUR FAMILIES?????? we dont mess up YOUR neighborhoods so please think about us!!! and as far as what happened in the Bais Hamikdosh sorry to say, but the women did not have CUSTOM WIGS ( that the Rabinim have forbidden to wear) AND IF YOU LOOK IN THE GEMORAH YOU WILL SEE THAT THERE WAS A SPECIAL SEPARATION BETWEEN THE MEN AND WOMEN.
I love all Jews alike oh yes I do, but I live in this neighborhood in order that my kids are not exposed to your free - jolly life style, if you want I would invite you over and be more specific so by the time we finish you might understand the difference between living a happy go lucky life or a true Torah life.
Have a happy Yom Tov.
22
Oct 12, 2008 at 07:27 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The fast BEHA"B, after the yomim tovim was made specifically as TESHUVA for mixed crowds walking the streets during Yom Tov.
Why in the world didn't our sages ASSER ALL WOMAN from the streets in order to avoid TAARUVES and having to fast?
Obviously, women are human beings who need to be treated with respect and dignity and allowed to see, hear, etc. just like men. However if by chance some sinned, our sages gave us a FAST day for TESHUVA! Not ASSER, ASSER, ASSER!
UNDERSTAND? ”
Taanis B"HAB was made for Teshuva for overindulging in food and drink over the Chagim. It most definitely does not have to do with mixing men and women over the Chagim! Learn the Halachos
23
Oct 12, 2008 at 08:17 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I understand them not wanting people coming in, and I respect. But for that matter when they go somwhere and people do not welcome them why are those people Antisemites and Jew Haters. There is a saying in yiddish "vus far a git morgen aza git yur" No wander the whole wide world hates religious jews. And they are the ones that are bringing it upon themselves. ”
Did I read correctly? Their living differently than others justifies anti-Semitism????
24
Oct 12, 2008 at 08:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I'm suing them for racial discrimination, use of abusive material.... but when they need money they run to us. ”
They run to you? You are free to say no.
25
Oct 12, 2008 at 08:38 PM Anonymous Says:
How would anyone like it if all year long they try really hard to protect thier families and homes from outside influence, and then, on sukkot, mobs of unwanted tourists flood the streets, and men and women mingle, and women come dressed in a way no one in the neighborhood dresses. we would protest if a nudist convention came to our hometown. i realize that it isn't exactly the same, but try to think like them. i was one of those tourists last year, and i followed all thier rules, and it was so inspiring! but i did see people dressed inappropriately, and acting inappropriately. so i salute them, because it's not that they hate outsiders. they just want to protect thier family. so stop bashing them.
26
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:02 PM Eli Says:
“ Taanis B"HAB was made for Teshuva for overindulging in food and drink over the Chagim. It most definitely does not have to do with mixing men and women over the Chagim! Learn the Halachos ”
Taanis B"HAB was made for Teshuva for overindulging in food and drink over the Chagim. It most definitely does not have to do with mixing men and women over the Chagim! Learn the Halachos
****************
I'm not sure which Halachos you are learning.
But Tosfos and the Rishonim, at the end of Mesechta Kiddushin state clearly Behab was instituted as Tshuvah for men and women mingling and looking at each other on yomtov.
Please look it up.
27
Oct 12, 2008 at 09:32 PM Anonymous Says:
ok so what happens to the americans who rented apaprtments from young couples in meir sharim for yom tov.do there woman have to stay in the apartments all yom tov.?there are plenty meir yeshiva yungleid who live there do there wives and daughters stay inside. how do the tzinis group know who lives there and who not?its odd yet they love the toursits money.wht is this world coming to?so do not let the woman into your succah but u can not stop them from walking the streets unless you put a big wall around meir sharrim and only those with a MS passport can go in
28
Oct 12, 2008 at 10:31 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Taanis B"HAB was made for Teshuva for overindulging in food and drink over the Chagim. It most definitely does not have to do with mixing men and women over the Chagim! Learn the Halachos
****************
I'm not sure which Halachos you are learning.
But Tosfos and the Rishonim, at the end of Mesechta Kiddushin state clearly Behab was instituted as Tshuvah for men and women mingling and looking at each other on yomtov.
Please look it up. ”
Looking for sources specifically...Our Sages established BaHaB ( three days of teshuvoh and tefillah after yom tov, in case one stumbledover yuntif (Tosafos, Kiddushin 81a; Tur 492).
As its name implies, chol hamoed includes aspects of weekday and festival. Because of its dual nature, chol hamoed can easily give rise to numerous errors. Our Sages foresaw this possibility, and instituted three days of teshuvoh after the chag (Elya Rabba 492,3).
The fasts are also because of the fear in Eretz Yisrael for delaying the much needed rain.
Check out the three reasons:
1) teshuvah -Rosh tells us (Taanis 1,20) that the joyous festivity of the holidays can be a catalyst for frivolity and sin
2)Environmental Concerns - Rav Yehuda Hachasid writes (Sefer Chassidim 227) that we fast after Succos in order that the rains of MarCheshvan fall adequately and beneficially.
3)Health Concern - The Mateh Moshe (716) - due to change of season to ward of sickness. Other meforshim -(Ravad ) because of excess food. While other shuls dont fast B"HAB but say s'lichot instead.
It is okay to have your opinion but these are the main reasons why there is Taanis B"HAB.
Have a wonderful Yuntif.May the Geulah come quickly!
29
Oct 12, 2008 at 11:17 PM Anonymous Says:
There you, using facts and information to confuse people who have already made up their minds!
30
Oct 13, 2008 at 09:57 AM Shloimy Says:
“ Looking for sources specifically...Our Sages established BaHaB ( three days of teshuvoh and tefillah after yom tov, in case one stumbledover yuntif (Tosafos, Kiddushin 81a; Tur 492).
As its name implies, chol hamoed includes aspects of weekday and festival. Because of its dual nature, chol hamoed can easily give rise to numerous errors. Our Sages foresaw this possibility, and instituted three days of teshuvoh after the chag (Elya Rabba 492,3).
The fasts are also because of the fear in Eretz Yisrael for delaying the much needed rain.
Check out the three reasons:
1) teshuvah -Rosh tells us (Taanis 1,20) that the joyous festivity of the holidays can be a catalyst for frivolity and sin
2)Environmental Concerns - Rav Yehuda Hachasid writes (Sefer Chassidim 227) that we fast after Succos in order that the rains of MarCheshvan fall adequately and beneficially.
3)Health Concern - The Mateh Moshe (716) - due to change of season to ward of sickness. Other meforshim -(Ravad ) because of excess food. While other shuls dont fast B"HAB but say s'lichot instead.
It is okay to have your opinion but these are the main reasons why there is Taanis B"HAB.
Have a wonderful Yuntif.May the Geulah come quickly!
”
Thank you for confirming Eli's point.
Tosfos, Rosh, and Tur all say behab is because of mingling between men and women.
Although there may be other reasons, like the ones you brought, however you must keep things in proper perspective.
What the Halachic rishonim tell us, i.e., tosfos, rosh and tur, is the ikar - main - reason. The others are additional reasons.
Anyone who "knows learning" understands what tosfos and the rosh and the tur say is the ikar.
31
Oct 13, 2008 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Thank you for confirming Eli's point.
Tosfos, Rosh, and Tur all say behab is because of mingling between men and women.
Although there may be other reasons, like the ones you brought, however you must keep things in proper perspective.
What the Halachic rishonim tell us, i.e., tosfos, rosh and tur, is the ikar - main - reason. The others are additional reasons.
Anyone who "knows learning" understands what tosfos and the rosh and the tur say is the ikar. ”
You will read and understand the way YOU want to understand. It may even include that aspect if you deem it inappropriate. Any overindulgence or sin requires a person to do teshuva. Hashem tells us what is Assur and Mutar. IN the Torah it talks about Taking the middle road and not going to extremes( to the right or left). i.e. eating too much, drinking too much. sleeping too much, not learning enough torah are some examples why a person would fast.There are always different opinions on just about everything in halacha ( Beis Hillel and Beis Shamai). Realize only viewing one opinion as the be all end all is what brings Sinas Chinam about. Accepting other opinions even if you don't agree with it will bring Moshiach quickly. Chag Sameach and Gut Yuntif!
32
Oct 13, 2008 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:
Civil War! Its becoming a real war the only difference between this and a usual civil war is that this is truly uncivil!