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New York - DOE Investigation Into Secular Education At City Yeshivas Proving Uphill Battle For Reformers

Published on: September 8, 2015 09:10 PM
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FILE - Young students seen learning in the classroom. Flash90FILE - Young students seen learning in the classroom. Flash90

New York - Despite assurances of “zero tolerance” from city and state elected officials and promises of transparency from both the DOE and the very yeshivas they are investigating with regard to whether or not the schools’ boys are receiving secular educations in accordance with state guidelines—-insiders say reformers are facing an uphill battle.

THEJEWISHWEEK.com (http://bit.ly/1No2anD) reports that assurances and promises aside, the man who has spearheaded the DOE investigation, 29 year-old Borough Park yeshiva graduate Naftuli Moster, is likely facing the same roadblocks that have guaranteed insularity within the community for decades “including the separation of church and state, the cozy relationship between local politicians and powerful chasidic leaders thought to control significant voting blocs and questions about whether, in fact, those leaders are purposely neglecting secular education as a way to keep their followers in the fold.”

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Since the DOE announced its investigation into 39 city yeshivas on the heels of Moster’s 52-signature letter, it seems almost everyone involved has been delicately tip-toeing around the issue, with few offering up answers to the myriad of questions currently floated.

The JEWISH WEEK’s lengthy piece detailing the issues surrounding the DOE probe is perhaps best summed up in the statement from Moster’s Young Advocates for Fair Education, or, Yaffed’s attorney Norman Siegel, who said, “This is a hot political issue. It’s radioactive.”

But Moster, Yaffed, and Siegel remain steadfast in their effort to shine a light on the real victims in the matter, the community’s children who are being shortchanged educationally.

“When it comes time for elections,” Siegel said. “this should be an issue that people should be aware of. And for elected officials in high positions who ignore the violation of civil rights, history says that sooner or later, they’re held politically accountable.”


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Read Comments (43)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Sep 08, 2015 at 09:25 PM Sam Says:

Education is dangerous - every educated person is a future enemy.

Hermann Goering

2

 Sep 08, 2015 at 09:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Such a shanda. The kids can't read past fourth grade and have no math skills. They can't even find New York state on a map.

3

 Sep 08, 2015 at 09:56 PM Anonymous Says:

If we called this travesty by its real name, "child abuse", than maybe there would be more willingness by the politicians to investigate and take action. To keep cranking out thousands of dysfunctional talmidim each year with little or no secular education or vocational skills is indeed a form of abuse that should be severely punished. Instead the politicians keep doing these photo ops with heilege rabbonim and roshe yeshivos who want to keep their talmidim in the dark and ignorant of the world around them.

4

 Sep 08, 2015 at 10:08 PM Boochie Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Such a shanda. The kids can't read past fourth grade and have no math skills. They can't even find New York state on a map.

While you may have a point ..public schools teach it and the kids are no better off, explain that

5

 Sep 08, 2015 at 10:38 PM Erlich Says:

Without a university education today, the Haredim are destined for a life of poverty, misery and desperation. Which will lead to couples fighting each other over money, no sholoim bayis, hardships for the family, even divorce.

6

 Sep 08, 2015 at 10:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Such a shanda. The kids can't read past fourth grade and have no math skills. They can't even find New York state on a map.

Yet they all are way wealthier than you are owning real estate instead of working a 9-5 and barely making a living

7

 Sep 08, 2015 at 11:51 PM Eagle Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Yet they all are way wealthier than you are owning real estate instead of working a 9-5 and barely making a living

Not ALL! Some are wealthy but the majority is struggling to make ends meet. And some commit crimes in order to get by, that's why the Talmud says you should teach your son a trade.

8

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:26 AM woodman516 Says:

# 5
Who owns b and h someone who went to college? And son many other big corporations owned by chassidim. Yes its being managed by college graduates working hard.

9

 Sep 09, 2015 at 01:07 AM Anonymous Says:

there is too much anger in some of the above comments- there is always a happy medium
surely you must admit that the public schools do NOT produce students that are prepared for the world. At least these Yeshiva kids are learning Torah and Halacha but as mentioned, there is always a happy medium and things can be worked out where everyone can be more or less satisfied.
This bunk about not making it unless one has a college degree is 'shtuss'
a bissel seichel and motivation makes for success. I know many financially struggling adults with college degrees.

10

 Sep 09, 2015 at 01:39 AM Mark Levin Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Such a shanda. The kids can't read past fourth grade and have no math skills. They can't even find New York state on a map.

Why don't you cut it out. You're LYING!!

11

 Sep 09, 2015 at 01:46 AM kehati Says:

If they are all indeed wealthier, why do New Square and KJ have the highest per cent of people in NYS on Medicaid and welfare?

12

 Sep 09, 2015 at 01:53 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Erlich Says:

Without a university education today, the Haredim are destined for a life of poverty, misery and desperation. Which will lead to couples fighting each other over money, no sholoim bayis, hardships for the family, even divorce.

How do you explain all those rich chassidim who never had a great secular education let alone stepped foot in a university?

13

 Sep 09, 2015 at 07:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6, terrible misconception. If there all so rich then why is it only chasidim doing the collecting in middle of davening? Most are living off social programs

14

 Sep 09, 2015 at 08:34 AM Isaac1 Says:

Reply to #8  
woodman516 Says:

# 5
Who owns b and h someone who went to college? And son many other big corporations owned by chassidim. Yes its being managed by college graduates working hard.

A lucid, if not brilliant, thought. So. I look forward to all the tens of thousands of BH multi millionaires. In fact, I realize now that all the struggling yungeleit are really millionaires who can afford to sit and learn. Thanks for clearing it up. You are a true gem. I hope you are a business man. The world of finance needs jewels like you

15

 Sep 09, 2015 at 08:39 AM Anonymous Says:

I agree a boy must get atleast some basic secular education enough to be able to understand and complete a form. To all those hockers, us yidden have a mitzvah of tzedukah, who said they're collecting for themselves?? How many homeless people are living in shelters with going thru the secular education? It's a person's choice as to what they choose, do they pursue or the blame the world for their problems...
A gut gebentched yur!!!

16

 Sep 09, 2015 at 08:41 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6, terrible misconception. If there all so rich then why is it only chasidim doing the collecting in middle of davening? Most are living off social programs

They're not collecting for themselves but for poor Jews of the US or Israel. There will always be poor people, whether they're educated with secular education or not, and whether they're Jewish or not. Being rich or poor has nothing to do with education but with siyata Dishmaya and mazel - nothing else.

17

 Sep 09, 2015 at 09:03 AM woodman516 Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6, terrible misconception. If there all so rich then why is it only chasidim doing the collecting in middle of davening? Most are living off social programs

U are obvously davening only between chasidim becuse if u would go to other states where there are no chasidim u will find plenty non chasidim collecting

18

 Sep 09, 2015 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Erlich Says:

Without a university education today, the Haredim are destined for a life of poverty, misery and desperation. Which will lead to couples fighting each other over money, no sholoim bayis, hardships for the family, even divorce.

I think there is a higher divorce rate in the secular world.

19

 Sep 09, 2015 at 10:30 AM OyGevald Says:

No Yeshiva need worry. Not now and not for years to come. The BOE statistics for average NYC public schools students are not better than the targeted yeshivos.
However you analyze "education" by studying success of student financial well being, be it time spent on the three R's at any level, few people need Algebra in any business position. Thousands of CPA's can't claim their elementary education was lacking and therefore they couldn't attend college to become certified. There are standard courses to boost ones level of education if they were really capable in the first place. Sure there are a few that could've done better but society today hasn't perfected that education model for the masses.
As one being involved previously in school administration, I've seen the State reports of how the public schools student averages are compared to yeshivos teaching the required third and fourth grade math levels.
Shockingly the State can't disclose seventh and eighth grade comparisons to the lower grade results perhaps due to the dropout levels in the public schools.
Bottom line, the PS education is very poor and teaching more courses to match the PS wouldn't guarantee anythin..

20

 Sep 09, 2015 at 10:37 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

I think there is a higher divorce rate in the secular world.

It's not a question but a fact, the more secular and more modern, the more divorce. Chassidim have the least divorce rate.

21

 Sep 09, 2015 at 10:06 AM Monroe23 Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Such a shanda. The kids can't read past fourth grade and have no math skills. They can't even find New York state on a map.

Interesting! I learned in one of these Yeshivas, and I have excellent reading skills along with absolute great math skills. For your information, I am currently serving as the CFO of a manufacturing company that employs more than 110 people in the State of NY (I believe I found it on the map...).
Please don't use your hatred towards Religious and Chasidic Jews under the cover of so called concern for our education.
The shame and "Shanda" is ALL ON YOU.

22

 Sep 09, 2015 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
kehati Says:

If they are all indeed wealthier, why do New Square and KJ have the highest per cent of people in NYS on Medicaid and welfare?

It happens to be that the County of Orange released their figures about two weeks ago, and the notion that about 90% of the KJ population is a completely fabricated story by you and your likes. Their figures show that less than a third of its population are on Medicaid and Family health plus and less than 10% are on welfare.
Even the Medicaid and Family health plus which is less than a third, it is mostly for the Family health plus program which is designed for medium level earners. With Health Insurance premiums skyrocketing, you need to be rich in order to purchase it your self if you don't get it from your employer.
Your statement reminds me of the saying "Please don't confuse me with the facts, I already made up my mind"!

23

 Sep 09, 2015 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Yet they all are way wealthier than you are owning real estate instead of working a 9-5 and barely making a living

"Yet they all are way wealthier than you are owning real estate instead of working a 9-5 and barely making a living"

Firstly, you know nothing about my finances. Secondly, most of the real estate Frum mogels are being investigated now. Stay tuned. Are you one of those who believe to keep people uneducated will keep them Frum? If they learn a bit from books, they may want to leave and study Mozart, Shakespeare and Byron like the rest of us did?

24

 Sep 09, 2015 at 11:37 AM nunu Says:

Reply to #4  
Boochie Says:

While you may have a point ..public schools teach it and the kids are no better off, explain that

while you have a point about public school children....aren't we better then that?

25

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Boochie Says:

While you may have a point ..public schools teach it and the kids are no better off, explain that

Kids are not better off in public schools due to socioeconomic issues Many of thise in public schools come from low income , unstable, crime ridden and/ or immigrant famalies. Kids need a stable enviornment outside school to succeed as well. We yidden, B"H have a stable enviornment for our kids. Thus our expectation are alot higher. I don't think its fair to compare the success for public schools to ours.

26

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

Yet they all are way wealthier than you are owning real estate instead of working a 9-5 and barely making a living

Wrong they are not all wealthy. The few clever ambitous ones are wealthy.

27

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
woodman516 Says:

# 5
Who owns b and h someone who went to college? And son many other big corporations owned by chassidim. Yes its being managed by college graduates working hard.

Yes they are some undeucated lucky ones that can open business and hire college students to manage thier business. But the majorty need to be those college students managing the business to make a parnasa. Not all of us have it in us to open businesses.

28

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

there is too much anger in some of the above comments- there is always a happy medium
surely you must admit that the public schools do NOT produce students that are prepared for the world. At least these Yeshiva kids are learning Torah and Halacha but as mentioned, there is always a happy medium and things can be worked out where everyone can be more or less satisfied.
This bunk about not making it unless one has a college degree is 'shtuss'
a bissel seichel and motivation makes for success. I know many financially struggling adults with college degrees.

Lets say someone doesn't have " a bissle sechal". Like me. I have no business acumen and would neve rbe able to run a business. But I have a college degree and know to produce nice spreadsheets for my corporation. I think many are in my boat.

29

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
OyGevald Says:

No Yeshiva need worry. Not now and not for years to come. The BOE statistics for average NYC public schools students are not better than the targeted yeshivos.
However you analyze "education" by studying success of student financial well being, be it time spent on the three R's at any level, few people need Algebra in any business position. Thousands of CPA's can't claim their elementary education was lacking and therefore they couldn't attend college to become certified. There are standard courses to boost ones level of education if they were really capable in the first place. Sure there are a few that could've done better but society today hasn't perfected that education model for the masses.
As one being involved previously in school administration, I've seen the State reports of how the public schools student averages are compared to yeshivos teaching the required third and fourth grade math levels.
Shockingly the State can't disclose seventh and eighth grade comparisons to the lower grade results perhaps due to the dropout levels in the public schools.
Bottom line, the PS education is very poor and teaching more courses to match the PS wouldn't guarantee anythin..

As I posted in an earlier comment you can compare Public schools to our schools. Public school students have socioeconomic issues the impeed their success. If we had that same ciricululim we would succeed alot more.

30

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Monroe23 Says:

Interesting! I learned in one of these Yeshivas, and I have excellent reading skills along with absolute great math skills. For your information, I am currently serving as the CFO of a manufacturing company that employs more than 110 people in the State of NY (I believe I found it on the map...).
Please don't use your hatred towards Religious and Chasidic Jews under the cover of so called concern for our education.
The shame and "Shanda" is ALL ON YOU.

You are an excpetion not the norm my friend.

31

 Sep 09, 2015 at 12:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Monroe23 Says:

Interesting! I learned in one of these Yeshivas, and I have excellent reading skills along with absolute great math skills. For your information, I am currently serving as the CFO of a manufacturing company that employs more than 110 people in the State of NY (I believe I found it on the map...).
Please don't use your hatred towards Religious and Chasidic Jews under the cover of so called concern for our education.
The shame and "Shanda" is ALL ON YOU.

A disucussion often missed is what are the kids doing in lieu of a secular education? Can our 9th grade bochrim really sit & learn today? Many of the yehvisha yeshivas have a big probelm. They can't teach a secular education. Because then they are not yeshivish. But they need to keep thier bocuhrim busy. They know they can't learn a whole day. So they shelp out the day. This teaches the kids very little responsibility in time mangement. Many of them grow up being battlonim and hockers. Just compare a solid litfsha yeshiva with english like phily verse some of the other ones. Who produces greater masmidim? Oh but I thought secular education is treif? So why are phily guys so shtark.
The same is true for chasidisha yeshivas. Can the chasdisha kids sit & learn a whole day? No, But es pas nisht for a chasdiahs mosoad to have secuar education. So the chasidsha kids drey, hock around, hop to every reba's tish, and kever, etc..

Bottom line I want to know how many of these kids are really learning a whole day.

32

 Sep 09, 2015 at 01:04 PM Coolidiot Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Such a shanda. The kids can't read past fourth grade and have no math skills. They can't even find New York state on a map.

While neither I or any Orthodox Jew cares about your income or if you studied the arts (as if that's going to garnish you an income). Your assumption (I guess your parents didn't encourage reading at home, instead you played "chaptzim" etc...) that children in the community can't read past the fourth grade. Or that children (I guess your parents didn't encourage Talmudic studies) have no math skills are very erroneous. I will not go back and forth on the subject but here are some interesting numbers. Jewish population by religion in the US 1.8%. Jewish median income see www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1976468/posts In terms of annual earnings, Jews are the highest-earning religious group in the United States, with 46 percent of the working population earning a six-digit figure every year, the only other group to even come close to the average Jewish income was the Hindus, with 43 percent earning over $100,000. No other group reached even the 30 percent mark, and the overall US average was only 18 percent earning six-figure digits. The median income for the US is $55,132.

So please if you would like to unyoke your birthright do it someplace else. But please don't touch our belief system that has taken us thru Egypt, the dessert, destruction of the temples, Tach vTat, Spanish Inquisition, the holocaust and the types of you. Ilu Huya Shom Lo Huya Niguel.

FYI I went to Satmar schools and never had a high school education (forget about anything past that joined the workforce at the age of 19).

33

 Sep 09, 2015 at 02:12 PM kehati Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

It happens to be that the County of Orange released their figures about two weeks ago, and the notion that about 90% of the KJ population is a completely fabricated story by you and your likes. Their figures show that less than a third of its population are on Medicaid and Family health plus and less than 10% are on welfare.
Even the Medicaid and Family health plus which is less than a third, it is mostly for the Family health plus program which is designed for medium level earners. With Health Insurance premiums skyrocketing, you need to be rich in order to purchase it your self if you don't get it from your employer.
Your statement reminds me of the saying "Please don't confuse me with the facts, I already made up my mind"!

I reread my original comment - I did NOT say 90% or any other percent. Please learn to read! Further, nothing that you wrote even remotely refutes my statement that New Square and KJ have the highest percent of their inhabitants on Medicaid and welfare.in NYS. YOU are confusing facts with fantasy.

34

 Sep 09, 2015 at 02:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Coolidiot Says:

While neither I or any Orthodox Jew cares about your income or if you studied the arts (as if that's going to garnish you an income). Your assumption (I guess your parents didn't encourage reading at home, instead you played "chaptzim" etc...) that children in the community can't read past the fourth grade. Or that children (I guess your parents didn't encourage Talmudic studies) have no math skills are very erroneous. I will not go back and forth on the subject but here are some interesting numbers. Jewish population by religion in the US 1.8%. Jewish median income see www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1976468/posts In terms of annual earnings, Jews are the highest-earning religious group in the United States, with 46 percent of the working population earning a six-digit figure every year, the only other group to even come close to the average Jewish income was the Hindus, with 43 percent earning over $100,000. No other group reached even the 30 percent mark, and the overall US average was only 18 percent earning six-figure digits. The median income for the US is $55,132.

So please if you would like to unyoke your birthright do it someplace else. But please don't touch our belief system that has taken us thru Egypt, the dessert, destruction of the temples, Tach vTat, Spanish Inquisition, the holocaust and the types of you. Ilu Huya Shom Lo Huya Niguel.

FYI I went to Satmar schools and never had a high school education (forget about anything past that joined the workforce at the age of 19).

where does our belief system say no secular education. Its a new made up mishagus. Let me tell you years ago satmar had a fine secular education too. Their english departmnet was tough. This is a new mishigas.

35

 Sep 09, 2015 at 03:31 PM Coolidiot Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

where does our belief system say no secular education. Its a new made up mishagus. Let me tell you years ago satmar had a fine secular education too. Their english departmnet was tough. This is a new mishigas.

Do some research on the Chasam Soffer.

36

 Sep 09, 2015 at 03:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Coolidiot Says:

While neither I or any Orthodox Jew cares about your income or if you studied the arts (as if that's going to garnish you an income). Your assumption (I guess your parents didn't encourage reading at home, instead you played "chaptzim" etc...) that children in the community can't read past the fourth grade. Or that children (I guess your parents didn't encourage Talmudic studies) have no math skills are very erroneous. I will not go back and forth on the subject but here are some interesting numbers. Jewish population by religion in the US 1.8%. Jewish median income see www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1976468/posts In terms of annual earnings, Jews are the highest-earning religious group in the United States, with 46 percent of the working population earning a six-digit figure every year, the only other group to even come close to the average Jewish income was the Hindus, with 43 percent earning over $100,000. No other group reached even the 30 percent mark, and the overall US average was only 18 percent earning six-figure digits. The median income for the US is $55,132.

So please if you would like to unyoke your birthright do it someplace else. But please don't touch our belief system that has taken us thru Egypt, the dessert, destruction of the temples, Tach vTat, Spanish Inquisition, the holocaust and the types of you. Ilu Huya Shom Lo Huya Niguel.

FYI I went to Satmar schools and never had a high school education (forget about anything past that joined the workforce at the age of 19).

While I agree that there are many with chsidisha yeshiva background that are quite proficient and work in the secular world (I'm one of those) the statistics you quote are not from our "Jewish" communities. When I was in Satnar Cheider in the late 50's and 60's we had 2 hours of English every day through the 8th grade- which were very serious classes- Yes, there were 8 grades, you couldn't skip English and the teachers were mostly public school teachers and many of my peers ended up either in business or in professions. But as things go today, I assume the Holy Divrei Yoel if he would be around today would be considered modern and not frum enough. Wishing all a Ksiva Vachsima Tova and a git gebencht yur.....

37

 Sep 09, 2015 at 01:57 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #12  
anonymous Says:

How do you explain all those rich chassidim who never had a great secular education let alone stepped foot in a university?

This is the most ridiculous question of the week! In every society there are people of incredible intelligence. Herman Schreiber, for example, didn't go to college and built B&H. Bill Gates was a college dropout as well. But they represent the tiniest percentage of Americans. These are men of unparalleled genius.

Comparing the extreme examples to the masses is like saying that every bochur in 300 seat yeshiva shouldn't learn anything else because they could all be the next Rosh Yeshiva.

We've been told by previous generations that those who don't teach their son a trade is teaching him to steal. That is exactly what created KJ. A town of "thieves" with no education and no means of providing for themselves without forcing the government to take money from their neighbors and give it to them. And before anyone says I'm anti-whatever.... I'm not. I just believe that as a community we must be able to support ourselves.

90+ people on Medicaid in what is demographically the YOUNGEST village in America. That says to me that young people have no real means of parnossoh. Whose fault is that? OURS! For not demanding better of our educators and ourselves!

38

 Sep 09, 2015 at 04:24 PM Coolidiot Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

While I agree that there are many with chsidisha yeshiva background that are quite proficient and work in the secular world (I'm one of those) the statistics you quote are not from our "Jewish" communities. When I was in Satnar Cheider in the late 50's and 60's we had 2 hours of English every day through the 8th grade- which were very serious classes- Yes, there were 8 grades, you couldn't skip English and the teachers were mostly public school teachers and many of my peers ended up either in business or in professions. But as things go today, I assume the Holy Divrei Yoel if he would be around today would be considered modern and not frum enough. Wishing all a Ksiva Vachsima Tova and a git gebencht yur.....

I beg to differ. I am not from the 50's or 60's. I am from the 90's. I am not one of a kind. All my classmates have jobs and are building beautiful homes (family's not "homes"). We used to call English studies "fun hour". Who can get more teachers to quit. I don't believe education is what makes you successful in life. If you seek a profession that requires a degree (lawyer doctor engineer etc....) by all means get your education. But the notion that the financial issues people face (Jewish or not, Orthodox or not, religious or not) are based on education or the lack of is idiotic. Look at the median income. That represents the majority of the U.S. People that are going thru the "proper educational system". No the issue here is one of disdain for our upbringing. One of frustration for being different. Lashing out against the ones who raised you. Not the lack of education.

39

 Sep 09, 2015 at 05:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Coolidiot Says:

Do some research on the Chasam Soffer.

That was a differnet dor.
1) There were maskilim to contend with.
2)He didn't live in a society where most parnasa's are earned via an education
3) In his times the boys were not sitting around and kratzing away the day like they are today. At those times even 7th graders and surley 15 yr old boys, worked part time unless you were a huge masmid. Nowdays its the norm not to work and stay in yeshiva at 15. So now please answer me what are most of these boys doing with their time? Are they really all learning day & nite?

As a side note, I am not anti kollel. I believe most in kollel you are mature enough to sit & learn and are not wasting the time. But mesifta bochrim are simply not mature enough to have zits fliesh to learn a whole day. Thats a scientific fact.

Back to my main point please don't bring proof from the chasam sofer of 200 yrs ago. As the last commenter pointed out satmar years ago had a fine secular education department at the behest of the hiliga reba zichus ygan aliham.

40

 Sep 09, 2015 at 05:15 PM Monroe23 Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

A disucussion often missed is what are the kids doing in lieu of a secular education? Can our 9th grade bochrim really sit & learn today? Many of the yehvisha yeshivas have a big probelm. They can't teach a secular education. Because then they are not yeshivish. But they need to keep thier bocuhrim busy. They know they can't learn a whole day. So they shelp out the day. This teaches the kids very little responsibility in time mangement. Many of them grow up being battlonim and hockers. Just compare a solid litfsha yeshiva with english like phily verse some of the other ones. Who produces greater masmidim? Oh but I thought secular education is treif? So why are phily guys so shtark.
The same is true for chasidisha yeshivas. Can the chasdisha kids sit & learn a whole day? No, But es pas nisht for a chasdiahs mosoad to have secuar education. So the chasidsha kids drey, hock around, hop to every reba's tish, and kever, etc..

Bottom line I want to know how many of these kids are really learning a whole day.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am on the board of directors in a Chasidishe Yeshiva, and most of the boys do learn all day. When you make up a fact, it does not become reality automatically because you said so. Having said that, do all Talmidim learn all day? Of course not, the Chazal already say "one thousand enter the Beis Hamedrash and only one becomes a Dayen", but at the end of the day, the Talmidim in the Yeshivas are doing pretty good in their studies and they happen to succeed in the secular world if they are willing to do the job.

41

 Sep 09, 2015 at 05:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
kehati Says:

I reread my original comment - I did NOT say 90% or any other percent. Please learn to read! Further, nothing that you wrote even remotely refutes my statement that New Square and KJ have the highest percent of their inhabitants on Medicaid and welfare.in NYS. YOU are confusing facts with fantasy.

I guess because you say so... Please get a life!!

42

 Sep 09, 2015 at 07:23 PM Coolidiot Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

That was a differnet dor.
1) There were maskilim to contend with.
2)He didn't live in a society where most parnasa's are earned via an education
3) In his times the boys were not sitting around and kratzing away the day like they are today. At those times even 7th graders and surley 15 yr old boys, worked part time unless you were a huge masmid. Nowdays its the norm not to work and stay in yeshiva at 15. So now please answer me what are most of these boys doing with their time? Are they really all learning day & nite?

As a side note, I am not anti kollel. I believe most in kollel you are mature enough to sit & learn and are not wasting the time. But mesifta bochrim are simply not mature enough to have zits fliesh to learn a whole day. Thats a scientific fact.

Back to my main point please don't bring proof from the chasam sofer of 200 yrs ago. As the last commenter pointed out satmar years ago had a fine secular education department at the behest of the hiliga reba zichus ygan aliham.

Your comments point to an assumption that the "zteiling" had to do with said maskilim etc.... Your point of don't bring something that happened 200 years ago unveils you true colors. We can only build on the path that our giants paved. For you or anyone for that matter to say other wise I go back to my original comment. "If you were there you wouldn't have gotten out".

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 Sep 09, 2015 at 10:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
Coolidiot Says:

I beg to differ. I am not from the 50's or 60's. I am from the 90's. I am not one of a kind. All my classmates have jobs and are building beautiful homes (family's not "homes"). We used to call English studies "fun hour". Who can get more teachers to quit. I don't believe education is what makes you successful in life. If you seek a profession that requires a degree (lawyer doctor engineer etc....) by all means get your education. But the notion that the financial issues people face (Jewish or not, Orthodox or not, religious or not) are based on education or the lack of is idiotic. Look at the median income. That represents the majority of the U.S. People that are going thru the "proper educational system". No the issue here is one of disdain for our upbringing. One of frustration for being different. Lashing out against the ones who raised you. Not the lack of education.

That's a deplorable pastime; trying to see who can get "more teachers to quit. What a sad state of affairs and values.

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