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Rockland County, NY - Hasidic Parents: East Ramapo School District Failing To Ensure Sound Secular Education For Yeshiva Students

Published on: September 17, 2015 01:22 PM
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FILE - Yoel Falkowitz (Facebook)FILE - Yoel Falkowitz (Facebook)

Rockland County, NY - In a rare move, Hasidic parents in Rockland County have begun speaking out about the egregious deficiencies in the secular education curriculum at most local yeshivas. Their remarks are eerily similar: a lack of a secular education has left them financially crippled, unable to provide for their large families, or to even fill out applications for government assistance.

Despite the risk for excommunication or expulsion from their insular sects, several Hasidic parents from East Ramapo have engaged the services of nonprofit law firm Advocates for Justice, to determine how secular studies can be enhanced at local yeshivas.

Yoel Falkowitz, 35, a Satmar Hasid from Kiryas Joel and resident of Spring Valley, was one of the parents who brought his concerns to Advocates for Justice. “I’ve spoken to a large number of people and everybody is concerned about getting a better education, but they have no voice,” Falkowitz told The Journal News (http://lohud.us/1LjykyU ). He says his American-born sons, ages 8, 10, and 11 can barely understand street signs written in English. “Their secular education is deficient in every area. There is no art, history, music, science, geography. Nothing exists.”

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Falkowitz gave a video interview to the Journal News you can watch it here 

Falkowitz says all this is going on under the noses of the East Ramapo school district, which is obligated by state law to ensure that a private school education is “substantially equivalent” to the secular curriculum offered in public schools. His sons’ education is “a far cry from the minimum requirement by law,” Falkowitz remarked. In fact, many yeshivas do not teach the English alphabet until the students reach the age of 7 or 8. Only 90 minutes is allotted for both English and math instruction maybe four times a week at the end of the school day. By the age of 13, boys receive religious instruction exclusively, while girls, who do not study Talmud, tend to get better secular educations.

Shulem Deen, a former Skverer Hasid from New Square and author who was excommunicated from the village for breaking with traditional Jewish teachings, concurred with Falkowtiz’s assessment. Deen says that many Hasidic sects tend to only teach in Yiddish and do not prepare students with skills for a career or to compete in the job market. “My sons are in sixth, seventh and eighth grade now and they receive no secular studies at all,” Deen said. “I know many, many adult Hasidic men who are very angry. They have two, three, four children. They can’t read. They can’t write. Many of them were struggling because they had no idea how type up a basic email without a million spelling mistakes.”

Those who criticize the status quo say that the failings in secular education at these yeshivas have forced many into lives of poverty and public assistance. The Hasidic men, who marry in their late teens, even have to rely on their wives’ English prowess to help them navigate the often complication forms required for public assistance, Deen said.

“A lot of boys, men, go out scrambling to find a job, get vocational skills,” said Nafatli Moster, a former yeshiva student and founder of YAFFED (Young Advocates for Fair Education). He said many of these communities encourage their followers to depend on government support in lieu of preparing them to obtain and hold down jobs.

Meanwhile, the East Ramapo school district finds itself in a bind. By law, the state Education Department says district superintendents are responsible for ensuring that the yeshivas provide a comparable education to that of public schools, but it does not require any testing to prove it.

“We want to make sure every child is educated to a standard that allows them to be self sufficient,” Board of Regents Chancellor Merryl Tisch said. “A nonpublic school that is determined not to be providing substantially equivalent instruction is operating illegally,” a spokeswoman for the Education Department added.

But East Ramapo schools Superintendent Joel Klein admits, “We don’t track the specifics of their [the yeshivas] programs. We don’t have the manpower to do that.”

Daniel Shanahan, the director of funded programs for East Ramapo, said he monitors federal grants allocated to private schools and keeps track of new yeshivas that open. The yeshivas provide him with basic information “that is easy for them to send” like the number of students in the grade. “Seldom do they send us anything that is a robust curriculum,” he said, but he still supports the yeshivas right to teach what they think is proper. “We can’t be the public school bully,” he said.


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Read Comments (42)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Sep 17, 2015 at 01:33 PM LionofZion Says:

I like it. Go Yoel.

2

 Sep 17, 2015 at 01:33 PM The_Truth Says:

I'm not sure why this is news. This is the way it has always been in most chassidish circles. News would be how they are changing that. Its easy to complain. How about now that you are an adult and want your kids to be able to read & write and learn something in school, to actually do something about it, rather than just complaining.

3

 Sep 17, 2015 at 01:57 PM Bi-Stander Says:

This is pure Mesirah. If you want to make changes to your school/Yeshiva's system, then, get some parents together and sit down with the school/Yeshiva, your children are going to and pressure them to do something about it. But, what these individuals are doing is just shining a light to what they really are. Pure Mosrim.

4

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:00 PM Maven Says:

Before watching the interview i thought for a moment "oh my a Satmar Hasid from Kiryas Joel" speaking out against yeshiva education and reaching out for help to those supposed activist?
After watching we can all see he is not the typical hassid the way he dresses.

These activists dont have in mind to help Hassidic kids.

This is a non-stop trend. Every other day its something else.One day its Metzitzah b'peh the next day its Kapporas now its lack of education. By now we see its all bogus.
These folks must be fought with all our might legally and with strong pen articles.
I hope VIN will post my comment.

5

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:14 PM kehati Says:

I'm anticipating an avalanche of e-mails which will say that the public schools are also no good (as if there is a similarity between a public school which must take all children and a Yeshiva which is by definition selective), and that Chasidim are wealthy because they know how to flip houses. Bottom line - in this country, the more education one has (with obvious exceptions), the higher one's income is. That's why the two villages in NYS which have the highest per cent of people on Medicaid and other governmental programs are KJ and New Square.

6

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:20 PM Nycnyc Says:

To all you TUNA BEIGELS
Wake up to your sleeping souls
You neglect your Jewish observance but make believe your so concerned about the religious jewish community. We are doing just fine. Plenty of chassidic youth have become wealthy and don't need to be professors in the English language. Plenty of college educated youth are unemployed today despite their English degrees. You can always hire help to do your paper work. Most people in America are either middle class or poor. That's how the real world is. We need more Torah classes for all ages of Jews of all backgrounds.

7

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:34 PM shvigger Says:

So why doesn't he register his children elsewhere?

8

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Unprecedented move?

The same meshugoyim have been blabbing about this forever. People who are known to have mental illnesses.

So a new reported wrote the same warmed over drivel trying to make aname for herself by fanning the flames of hate of the unwashed antisemites in the Lohud area.

9

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:47 PM LouKay Says:

This is a shandeh.
The yeshivas cry to the Gov't to get $$ for non-religious/secsecular things like books, transportation, etc...but don't give the service...i wonder what that's called???
And unfortunately, it's not only "chassidisher" yeshivos the litvisha/yeshivish yeshivas are just as guilty!!

10

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:55 PM Bezalel Says:

Yoel's red MG Midget is adorable.

11

 Sep 17, 2015 at 03:07 PM akraus88 Says:

Our problem is not education. We live the American lifestyle, which requires a 2 man income, and and only have one bread winner in our circles. Our men make as much as those highly "educated" grads, but we have large families and only one income. Until nothing is done for that, we can all be educated, we'll never make it.

12

 Sep 17, 2015 at 03:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Before the fireworks fly whether a secular education helps one earn a living or not, let me bring out another pointer not often discussed.
What are these 9th graders doing when not studying a secular education? Are they up to sitting & learning all day? Most kids can't and don't learn all day. What ends up happening is the schools just shlep out the day. The kids ending kraitzing around and wasiting alot of time. This is true both in chasidish and yeshvisha places. Even some rabbiem are disturbed by all the time wasted and batlonishkit. But they can't do anything or they won't get the crowd they want.
I don't see phili guys end up any worse off than those that attend yeshvisha yeshivas in terms of learning. This is despite the fact that phily has a good english. the same would be true for chasidim.

13

 Sep 17, 2015 at 04:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Before the fireworks fly whether a secular education helps one earn a living or not, let me bring out another pointer not often discussed.
What are these 9th graders doing when not studying a secular education? Are they up to sitting & learning all day? Most kids can't and don't learn all day. What ends up happening is the schools just shlep out the day. The kids ending kraitzing around and wasiting alot of time. This is true both in chasidish and yeshvisha places. Even some rabbiem are disturbed by all the time wasted and batlonishkit. But they can't do anything or they won't get the crowd they want.
I don't see phili guys end up any worse off than those that attend yeshvisha yeshivas in terms of learning. This is despite the fact that phily has a good english. the same would be true for chasidim.

Agreed.

14

 Sep 17, 2015 at 04:24 PM albroker Says:

Cuomo wont do anything to antaganize his donors.

15

 Sep 17, 2015 at 04:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Why would somebody send their children to a school with no secular education? If a majority of parents would leave those yeshivas they would be forced to change. We vote with our feet so stop kvetching!!!

16

 Sep 17, 2015 at 04:45 PM BLONDI Says:

Back in Europe my parents went to public school and knew how to read the secular language. And math. And cheder. Now we have smart phones with calculators and gps

17

 Sep 17, 2015 at 04:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Unprecedented move?

The same meshugoyim have been blabbing about this forever. People who are known to have mental illnesses.

So a new reported wrote the same warmed over drivel trying to make aname for herself by fanning the flames of hate of the unwashed antisemites in the Lohud area.

Do you at all comprehend that posting a response to an article about the lack of adequate secular education is actually not very compelling when one does so using incorrect grammar and spelling, thereby proving the article's point? It is fine for you, presumably an adult, to choose ignorance as a lifestyle. However, it is not at all fine to impose such ignorance on our children.

18

 Sep 17, 2015 at 04:26 PM mr613 Says:

wpupdnt it be wonderful if Tomechai Shabbos didn't need to exist ?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if not a single Yiddish sole was on the public dole?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if our sons and daughters were taught that earning and honest living through a professional career is commendable?

Are all our children supposed to be or for that matter cut out to be the Next Rebbeh? The next Gadol Hador? The next Rosh Hayishivah?

Would anyone be embarrassed if they're son and daughter earned a respectable living as a doctor,dentist,lawyer,CPA,architect,engineer etc?

My friends an education is needed an education should be encouraged!

19

 Sep 17, 2015 at 04:59 PM ahyid Says:

I'm have been a teacher for over 25 years in various chasidishe yeshivos. I will be the first to admit that there can be updates to the curriculum. But that isn't where the real problem is.
The real problem not the yeshivos it is the complainers themselves. Do they speak English at home? Usually not. Many of the chasidisher children learn to read a little but their comprehension is low because the language is not used at home. When their son becomes bar mitzvah and leave English altogether do these boys converse with any one in English? Again the answer is no. About 8 -9 years later this chasidishe kid wants to get a job, he can't talk English whose fault is it, the Yeshiva or these rabble rousers who don't speak to their children in English. The answer is obvious.

20

 Sep 17, 2015 at 05:02 PM commonsense99 Says:

Reply to #10  
Bezalel Says:

Yoel's red MG Midget is adorable.

Most people who are concerned about education [myself included] do not spend time being busy with silly cars, I am chasidish drive a mini van and do not spend my time on silly matters. Both my sons and I have a cheder education and know who Robert E Lee, US Grant, Bach, Mozart, Van Gogh, Michelangelo, Shakespeare and O Henry are. All my kids have a firm knowledge base of to quote Yoel "art, history, music, science, geography". If you busy with your car your kids will grow up ignorant no matter what they teach them in school, if you expose them to real subjects they will grow no matter what.

21

 Sep 17, 2015 at 05:12 PM SGMoish Says:

Hey Yoel. You're 35 years old yet you're still part of the problem. You will never change the curriculum in Satmer why don't you take your kids and put them into a serious yeshiva that provides a normative secular education? You're worried he won't be tought the Divrei Yoel, hire a private tutor for that one lesson.

22

 Sep 17, 2015 at 05:25 PM LouKay Says:

Reply to #6  
Nycnyc Says:

To all you TUNA BEIGELS
Wake up to your sleeping souls
You neglect your Jewish observance but make believe your so concerned about the religious jewish community. We are doing just fine. Plenty of chassidic youth have become wealthy and don't need to be professors in the English language. Plenty of college educated youth are unemployed today despite their English degrees. You can always hire help to do your paper work. Most people in America are either middle class or poor. That's how the real world is. We need more Torah classes for all ages of Jews of all backgrounds.

"We are doing just fine. Plenty of chassidic youth have become wealthy and don't need to be professors in the English language."

YEAH RIGHT! Halevie it was true! But it's not.
A few yechideim maybe, but the average person is not making it. Most are truck drivers, cashiers in stores, hard working, and barely make a living.
You just have to look what goes on in every sheil in the morning. You can not say more than two words of davening before somebody sticks his hand in front of your face for some important tzeduka like Hacnusas Kalah, or "I'm a goise baal Choyv" etc..

I guess THEY don't know that they are doing fine. only you do.

23

 Sep 17, 2015 at 05:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

Do you at all comprehend that posting a response to an article about the lack of adequate secular education is actually not very compelling when one does so using incorrect grammar and spelling, thereby proving the article's point? It is fine for you, presumably an adult, to choose ignorance as a lifestyle. However, it is not at all fine to impose such ignorance on our children.

Hey I am all pro secular education. But I will point out the following, nowdays proper grammer and spelling is much less relevant than prior days. WeI woud now have spell & grammer check. Memos in corporations are much less common as well. My supervisor wants text like e-mails rather than proper e-mails.

I would venture to say that teaching a child basic computer skills such as microsoft office (including excel) is of equal if not more importance.

Sorry I did not turn on my spell & grammar check for vin.

24

 Sep 17, 2015 at 02:27 PM commonsense99 Says:

what a crock, I was cheder educated, I wanted to get a college education and I pursued that goal, my kids went to cheder some went to college and some did not. Both myself and my kids will beat any public school graduate in any subject, if you want to be ignorant you can be ignorant if you graduated from public school or from yeshiva.
PS Thanks Shema Kolanu for honoring Meryl Tisch our community really needs friends like this. [ note the sarcasm]

25

 Sep 17, 2015 at 06:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Maven Says:

Before watching the interview i thought for a moment "oh my a Satmar Hasid from Kiryas Joel" speaking out against yeshiva education and reaching out for help to those supposed activist?
After watching we can all see he is not the typical hassid the way he dresses.

These activists dont have in mind to help Hassidic kids.

This is a non-stop trend. Every other day its something else.One day its Metzitzah b'peh the next day its Kapporas now its lack of education. By now we see its all bogus.
These folks must be fought with all our might legally and with strong pen articles.
I hope VIN will post my comment.

from kiryas yoel, but living in spring valley? a dead giveaway. Deen is nebech today completely OTD. Neither really means basic literacy and numeracy (which would be a positive move). they are simply looking for another way to drag a few more neshomos away from the klal.

26

 Sep 17, 2015 at 06:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
shvigger Says:

So why doesn't he register his children elsewhere?

because he no longer has custody of them ...

27

 Sep 17, 2015 at 07:33 PM Trying Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Before the fireworks fly whether a secular education helps one earn a living or not, let me bring out another pointer not often discussed.
What are these 9th graders doing when not studying a secular education? Are they up to sitting & learning all day? Most kids can't and don't learn all day. What ends up happening is the schools just shlep out the day. The kids ending kraitzing around and wasiting alot of time. This is true both in chasidish and yeshvisha places. Even some rabbiem are disturbed by all the time wasted and batlonishkit. But they can't do anything or they won't get the crowd they want.
I don't see phili guys end up any worse off than those that attend yeshvisha yeshivas in terms of learning. This is despite the fact that phily has a good english. the same would be true for chasidim.

I had two sons who went to Philly, recently. They do NOT have decent secular studies by any standards.

28

 Sep 17, 2015 at 07:38 PM shvigger Says:

Reply to #22  
LouKay Says:

"We are doing just fine. Plenty of chassidic youth have become wealthy and don't need to be professors in the English language."

YEAH RIGHT! Halevie it was true! But it's not.
A few yechideim maybe, but the average person is not making it. Most are truck drivers, cashiers in stores, hard working, and barely make a living.
You just have to look what goes on in every sheil in the morning. You can not say more than two words of davening before somebody sticks his hand in front of your face for some important tzeduka like Hacnusas Kalah, or "I'm a goise baal Choyv" etc..

I guess THEY don't know that they are doing fine. only you do.

What's wrong with blue collar work? WHAT IS WRONG with making an honest living driving a truck. How many psychiatrists do you think the world needs?

29

 Sep 17, 2015 at 07:45 PM Nycnyc Says:

Reply to #22  
LouKay Says:

"We are doing just fine. Plenty of chassidic youth have become wealthy and don't need to be professors in the English language."

YEAH RIGHT! Halevie it was true! But it's not.
A few yechideim maybe, but the average person is not making it. Most are truck drivers, cashiers in stores, hard working, and barely make a living.
You just have to look what goes on in every sheil in the morning. You can not say more than two words of davening before somebody sticks his hand in front of your face for some important tzeduka like Hacnusas Kalah, or "I'm a goise baal Choyv" etc..

I guess THEY don't know that they are doing fine. only you do.

There is not that many collectors. In one davening period I counted maybe five and they are the regulars who are the homeless type. You don't need much English or math to make real money. The fact is most Americans are not wealthy. Wealth has nothing to do with college. In fact most forbes 400 are dropouts of college or even high school. I remember meeting billionaire Abe hirshfeld telling me he drope

30

 Sep 17, 2015 at 09:17 PM Bezalel Says:

Reply to #20  
commonsense99 Says:

Most people who are concerned about education [myself included] do not spend time being busy with silly cars, I am chasidish drive a mini van and do not spend my time on silly matters. Both my sons and I have a cheder education and know who Robert E Lee, US Grant, Bach, Mozart, Van Gogh, Michelangelo, Shakespeare and O Henry are. All my kids have a firm knowledge base of to quote Yoel "art, history, music, science, geography". If you busy with your car your kids will grow up ignorant no matter what they teach them in school, if you expose them to real subjects they will grow no matter what.

I know who all those people are, except O Henry, which I thought was a candy bar. I know a little about cars, too, though I'm not an expert. You are right, though, in that I do spend too much time with narishkeit and not enough with important things such as learning. As far as education, my wife and I have not yet been blessed with children and I don't know if it will happen, though we would be grateful for prayers.

31

 Sep 17, 2015 at 11:41 PM ActualJew Says:

Why would you send your kid to a school that is not serving what you consider to be their needs? Are you unable to ease yourselves out of the community? Are you afraid? If so, getting a couple of hours of math will not help. You need to find a home and a school that will make your kid happy and educated and worldly enough to survive as a frum Jew in the world. Otherwise, keep learning the same Gemarra over again (most likely about work that you will never do), and prepare yourselves for lives of penury and shnorring.

32

 Sep 17, 2015 at 11:50 PM #12 Says:

Sorry maybe I used a bad example. In my days phily was considered to have a top both jewish and english education. I would venture to say that its still decent despite your disappointment. But choose some other school if you'd like.

My main point is, 9th graders can't learn all day. Its just physically not possible. So why not offer a secular education? What else are they doing with their time. And I have yet to see those who had a secular education any less frum than those with. In fact most with a secular education are better off in terms of time value.

33

 Sep 17, 2015 at 11:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Nycnyc Says:

There is not that many collectors. In one davening period I counted maybe five and they are the regulars who are the homeless type. You don't need much English or math to make real money. The fact is most Americans are not wealthy. Wealth has nothing to do with college. In fact most forbes 400 are dropouts of college or even high school. I remember meeting billionaire Abe hirshfeld telling me he drope

Wealth amy have very little to do with college. But earning your average livelihood does have a direct corelation towards college. Look up the data yourself. And if you cut out the nonsense degrees the data would suggest an even stronger parnasa from college.

34

 Sep 18, 2015 at 12:10 AM Anonymous Says:

It's the same heimishe dropouts who always make these accusations and the mainstream press loves it!! My children went to satmar yeshiva and speak a perfect English. They also run a business and make a good living. I know college grads who can't spell and cannot exist without a calculator. They are also the "starving artists" of our society.

35

 Sep 18, 2015 at 12:25 AM Anonymous Says:

"There is no art, history, music, science, geography". Art and music can be taught in a Jewish context. Students can be taught Jewish history or history of Jews. Is it really important to learn about the battles of the revolutionary war? Science has problems of evolutionary theory being taught , as well as views that may be against the Torah in biology.It can be taught if from a perspective that the world was created and is run by Hashem. The government could help sponsor these but the yeshivas should have a right that they be taught from a Torah perspective.

36

 Sep 18, 2015 at 03:11 AM MyThreeCents Says:

Reply to #27  
Trying Says:

I had two sons who went to Philly, recently. They do NOT have decent secular studies by any standards.

Yeah? My son went to Philly and even had to take French! Did he need French? No way. I think my son is very well secularly educated. I think Yeshiva students need basic reading, spelling and Math skills. The rest they can really do without (science, Art, etc.) If they have outside interests, they can learn them from reading if they know how to read.

37

 Sep 18, 2015 at 03:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Anonymous Says:

"There is no art, history, music, science, geography". Art and music can be taught in a Jewish context. Students can be taught Jewish history or history of Jews. Is it really important to learn about the battles of the revolutionary war? Science has problems of evolutionary theory being taught , as well as views that may be against the Torah in biology.It can be taught if from a perspective that the world was created and is run by Hashem. The government could help sponsor these but the yeshivas should have a right that they be taught from a Torah perspective.

Why not send them to a Madrassa while you're at it?

38

 Sep 18, 2015 at 06:17 AM Anonymous Says:

I know that this is not the overall solution but the first thing I would suggest to at least promote basic English skills is to have the boys read seforim like the choose halvovos

39

 Sep 18, 2015 at 11:22 AM #12 Says:

Reply to #36  
MyThreeCents Says:

Yeah? My son went to Philly and even had to take French! Did he need French? No way. I think my son is very well secularly educated. I think Yeshiva students need basic reading, spelling and Math skills. The rest they can really do without (science, Art, etc.) If they have outside interests, they can learn them from reading if they know how to read.

Its not always tit for tat in that everyhting you learn will be useful. But it opens your mind.

Plus my main point is, that at the end of the day your son couldn't learn the whole day. So they did something somewhat useful with his time. In general he got a sense that the day is not about kratzing half the day. One must occupy himself with something somewhat useful.

Of course you can self learning everything. But there is something to be said about a structured learning enviornment that opens ones mind. Oh and I don't use science at all for my job. Yet a basic understanding of biology and chemistry is nice to have. Since I couldn't learn a whole day anyway I am glad I took those bio and chemistry regents.

40

 Nov 11, 2015 at 05:42 PM Mougly Says:

Reply to #10  
Bezalel Says:

Yoel's red MG Midget is adorable.

The best part is that it's not his car. It's mine.

p.s. It's a 1969 Austin Healey Sprite MkIV

41

 Nov 22, 2015 at 11:10 AM favish Says:

Reply to #19  
ahyid Says:

I'm have been a teacher for over 25 years in various chasidishe yeshivos. I will be the first to admit that there can be updates to the curriculum. But that isn't where the real problem is.
The real problem not the yeshivos it is the complainers themselves. Do they speak English at home? Usually not. Many of the chasidisher children learn to read a little but their comprehension is low because the language is not used at home. When their son becomes bar mitzvah and leave English altogether do these boys converse with any one in English? Again the answer is no. About 8 -9 years later this chasidishe kid wants to get a job, he can't talk English whose fault is it, the Yeshiva or these rabble rousers who don't speak to their children in English. The answer is obvious.

you dont belong on this site...your are gonig against the yesodes that kept the torah,, one of them is 'LO SHINU LESHONOM'

42

 Nov 22, 2015 at 11:25 AM favish Says:

Reply to #32  
#12 Says:

Sorry maybe I used a bad example. In my days phily was considered to have a top both jewish and english education. I would venture to say that its still decent despite your disappointment. But choose some other school if you'd like.

My main point is, 9th graders can't learn all day. Its just physically not possible. So why not offer a secular education? What else are they doing with their time. And I have yet to see those who had a secular education any less frum than those with. In fact most with a secular education are better off in terms of time value.

In 'YOUR' fact

43

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