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Jerusalem - Chevra Kadisha: Halacha Prohibits Burial Of Body In Coffin |
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Menachem Ben-Zaccaria who died in crash
The family of Menachem Ben-Zaccaria of Netanya, who was killed in the crash along with three others, was told that using a coffin was against Halacha (Jewish law) and would be impossible.
"They told us it was against Halacha and that instead of this they would work it out – and use a doll," the deceased's sister Havi told Ynet on Sunday.
"As if the pain we are going through is not enough, they are torturing us and driving us crazy. Instead of preparing for the shiva, we have to deal with this and fight to have Meni (Menachem) buried with dignity. The State of Israel should be ashamed to have such burial services."
Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and Netanya Mayor Miriam Feierberg have both been working to reach a solution to the family's problem.
The bodies of the four victims of the crash were found in poor condition. Chevra Kadisha explained to the family that, according to Halacha, it's not customary to bury remains in a coffin.
"A rabbi sits before us, stretching on his chair and promises us that they will take care of it and it will be ok," said Havi. "I asked him, 'And what about my mother, who doesn't know all the details, and would want to hug my brother?' He answered me, 'That's your problem.'"
The deceased's sister said that after asking around, it became apparent that Chevra Kadisha planned to bury the body along with a doll.
"I will not let such a terrible thing happen. My brother will get the respect he deserves and even if they refuse to bury him in a coffin, we will bring him home in a coffin, place him at home, and sit there. We have been on our feet since the morning dealing only with this. They are just torturing us."
'A monopoly that lives at our expense'
Netanya's chief rabbi said that an official Chevra Kadisha representative inspected the body, and that it was intact, therefore there was no need for a coffin.
Havi criticized Chevra Kadisha's conduct, saying, "It's a shame on the State of Israel that they behave this way. Because they are a monopoly that lives at our expense, they allow themselves to do whatever they want. Unfortunately, this is our State of Israel."
David Levin of Netanya's Chevra Kadisha said in response, "The family came to Chevra Kadisha with the demand, not a request, to bury (the body) in a coffin. We refused. We operate according to the Halacha and according to the Halacha we do not bury (bodies) in a coffin.
"We also consulted with the Netanya's chief rabbi, who approved our decision and agreed that we should operate according to the Halacha. To our understanding, there is a body, and even if it is not intact – it can be wrapped in more shrouds and the burial can be carried out in a dignified manner."
"We tried to meet the family halfway, and asked to sit with the family to find a solution together, and to explain our capabilities to them. We are not against the family, but for them.
"We have been clear on this matter, because we are a public organization and we can't have everyone asking for what they want. We would be happy to meet with the family in good spirits, and offer them solutions."
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Read Comments (37) — Post Yours »
1
Oct 27, 2008 at 08:49 PM poor family Says:
nebach, sure its emotional for them.
may hashem give them the wisdom and strenth
2
Oct 27, 2008 at 08:29 PM Anonymous Says:
This is the result of OUR ignoring our not-yet observant cousins religious education, all they feel is our "coercion". A generation ago perhaps there was some sensitivity to tradition even without observance.
May the family be comforted in their time of pain and may they one day feel "Dracheha darchei noam".
3
Oct 27, 2008 at 09:08 PM Anonymous Says:
Cousins? Araabs are our cousins. Jews are are our brothers & sisters
4
Oct 27, 2008 at 10:26 PM Milhouse Says:
Also, what kind of halacha is it that you can't use a coffin? The local minhag may be against it, but halacha?!? In most countries even the very frummest use a coffin, at least until the grave.
5
Oct 27, 2008 at 10:24 PM Milhouse Says:
The story is very confused, and I think we can be very confident that it's not accurate. What were the CK proposing to do with the doll? And what has it got to do with the mother hugging the corpse? Surely a coffin would get in the way of that! From a few hints in the story I *speculate* that what the family was really demanding was an Irish- style wake, at which the body would lie in a coffin, in full view, and people would be able to talk to it, hug it, or whatever other "dignities" to which other cultures subject their meisim. If that's what they wanted then it might have made some glimmer of sense for the CK to suggest a mannequin to stand in for the actual body. But this is just my own only-very-slightly-informed speculation.
6
Oct 27, 2008 at 11:14 PM Anonymous Says:
Minhag Yisroel Torah!
7
Oct 27, 2008 at 11:23 PM Anonymous Says:
I do know that only in Eretz Yisroel you are not buried in a coffin. i think that the halacha has to do with being that they are buried in Eretz Yisroel. I am in another Chevra Kadisha and we use coffins.
8
Oct 27, 2008 at 11:25 PM Anonymous Says:
The Jewish State unfortunately, striped our fellow brothers of how to live like a Jew. How can we expect them to want to be buried like a Jew. Being Jewish does not mean the same thing to them like it means to some Jews who have the privilege to be raised with the Torah, as a way of life. We must pray for our lost souls. So sad..... They were told that the Frum Jew is not something they need to associate with. Never mind the Religious Jew, should stuff their believes down their throats. May Our Sweet Father In Heaven bring comfort to this family. How sad to have to bury someone so young. But we can not blame them for feeling this way. They are lost. We must try to mekariv everyone of them, whenever the opportunity arises. It is our responsibility to guide them through the darkness.
9
Oct 27, 2008 at 11:34 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I do know that only in Eretz Yisroel you are not buried in a coffin. i think that the halacha has to do with being that they are buried in Eretz Yisroel. I am in another Chevra Kadisha and we use coffins. ”
I think the only reason they coffins in chutz larets (out of israel) is because dina dmalchusa dina but halacha wise we should not be using coffins
10
Oct 27, 2008 at 11:47 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I do know that only in Eretz Yisroel you are not buried in a coffin. i think that the halacha has to do with being that they are buried in Eretz Yisroel. I am in another Chevra Kadisha and we use coffins. ”
Not entirely correct. I am a Chevra Kedisha member in New York, & we use an Aron with a base board that slides away at the moment of Kevura. That way the Meis is buried al pi Halacha: directly on to the earth.
Why can't the Chevra Kedisha of Netanya do that? It works fine over here, even with NY State laws.
It seems to me there needs to be some sensitivity training & research done to work with families who are resistant to Halacha. You have to remember they are grieving, so they aren't rational, thinking straight, or polite. A bit of kindness will go a long way.
11
Oct 27, 2008 at 11:53 PM Chicago Says:
“ The story is very confused, and I think we can be very confident that it's not accurate. What were the CK proposing to do with the doll? And what has it got to do with the mother hugging the corpse? Surely a coffin would get in the way of that! From a few hints in the story I *speculate* that what the family was really demanding was an Irish- style wake, at which the body would lie in a coffin, in full view, and people would be able to talk to it, hug it, or whatever other "dignities" to which other cultures subject their meisim. If that's what they wanted then it might have made some glimmer of sense for the CK to suggest a mannequin to stand in for the actual body. But this is just my own only-very-slightly-informed speculation.
”
I had the same questions about the story. It really is confusing, but your *possible* explanations make sense.
12
Oct 27, 2008 at 11:49 PM Reb Moshe Says:
“ Also, what kind of halacha is it that you can't use a coffin? The local minhag may be against it, but halacha?!? In most countries even the very frummest use a coffin, at least until the grave. ”
The bottom of every coffin is opened before the grave is covered, so that the Niftar is laying on the ground not on the wood of the coffin. We in America only use a coffin to carry the Niftar until the grave. Once it's lowered into the grave someone goes down and opens the bottom.
13
Oct 28, 2008 at 06:55 AM mark Says:
the chevra could have been a bit more comprimising i had serious issues with the chevra kaddisha in yerusaleim after burials of coffins comming from america they leave the metal debris on the cemetery not even bothering to keep the holy bais hacaim clean,,,,,,,,,they have miilions in the bank but refuse to hire security on the cemetery leaving the zionist govt to care for the graves
14
Oct 28, 2008 at 07:20 AM OMG Says:
This is the goriest story I ever heard! Im sure they wanted to do a "WAKE" aka VIEWING. THe goyim do that. THey dress up the meis in their best, put them in an open coffin and all the guests walk past the coffin. YUK!
15
Oct 28, 2008 at 07:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ This is the goriest story I ever heard! Im sure they wanted to do a "WAKE" aka VIEWING. THe goyim do that. THey dress up the meis in their best, put them in an open coffin and all the guests walk past the coffin. YUK! ”
Well, I guess you aren't a member of the Chevra Kedisha. And by the way, some frum Jews do have a viewing...it depends on their Minhagim, I suppose. My cousin A"H had that, it's what her husband wanted. True, it's the only time I heard of it & we didn't look, but weird as it seems to us his family thought it was the norm. They are very frum. No questions, please.
But OMG, try not to be so revolted by death. Calm down & save your emotions to comfort the living. Until Moshiach, death is what happens. Be glad there are people like me who don't feel like you. Otherwise there'd not be any Kovod HaMais & Tahara Kedushin for anyone.
16
Oct 28, 2008 at 08:53 AM chevrakadisha manchester Says:
it is a minhag not to bury in a coffin and NOT halacha. it is clear from countless places in mishhna, gemara and halacha that coffins were used and they continue to be used by orthodox jewish communities around the world as we do here in Manchester.
17
Oct 28, 2008 at 08:53 AM Anonymous Says:
#10 is correct in both procedure and in calling for sensitivity training of that chevra.
#12, I think you may be misinformed. Read post #10
18
Oct 28, 2008 at 10:14 AM Masmid Says:
“ it is a minhag not to bury in a coffin and NOT halacha. it is clear from countless places in mishhna, gemara and halacha that coffins were used and they continue to be used by orthodox jewish communities around the world as we do here in Manchester. ”
I am not so sure that you are qualified to be a Posak on this issue
19
Oct 28, 2008 at 10:42 AM Anonymous Says:
“ This is the goriest story I ever heard! Im sure they wanted to do a "WAKE" aka VIEWING. THe goyim do that. THey dress up the meis in their best, put them in an open coffin and all the guests walk past the coffin. YUK! ”
that was a very mean comment
20
Oct 28, 2008 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The story is very confused, and I think we can be very confident that it's not accurate. What were the CK proposing to do with the doll? And what has it got to do with the mother hugging the corpse? Surely a coffin would get in the way of that! From a few hints in the story I *speculate* that what the family was really demanding was an Irish- style wake, at which the body would lie in a coffin, in full view, and people would be able to talk to it, hug it, or whatever other "dignities" to which other cultures subject their meisim. If that's what they wanted then it might have made some glimmer of sense for the CK to suggest a mannequin to stand in for the actual body. But this is just my own only-very-slightly-informed speculation.
”
The way I understood it was that since the remains are "in poor condition" the daughters concern was that if they just use a shroud to cover them it could be very distressing for the mother if she embraces her son. The daughter therefore preferred a coffin because then the mother would just be able to embrace the exterior of the closed coffin as is commonly done. I thought that was why the Chevra Kadisha suggested using a doll under, and completely covered by, a shroud to at least give the appearance of a full body. I do not suspect they want a wake.
21
Oct 28, 2008 at 12:23 PM Pashuteh Yid Says:
#8, Anon 11:25, If the Zionists disregarded Torah, it is because the frum fought against them long before. Had the frum embraced their noble idea of returning to EY, there would have been achdus, and the wishes of the frum would have been accomodated.
22
Oct 28, 2008 at 02:53 PM Chuchim Says:
“ #8, Anon 11:25, If the Zionists disregarded Torah, it is because the frum fought against them long before. Had the frum embraced their noble idea of returning to EY, there would have been achdus, and the wishes of the frum would have been accomodated. ”
Ans then noone would be frum...chuchem.
23
Oct 28, 2008 at 02:46 PM chevrakadishamanchester Says:
“ I am not so sure that you are qualified to be a Posak on this issue ”
i am not issuing a psak only making my comment based on Minhag Yisroel Torah. I have been a full time member of our local Chevra Kadisha for nearly ten years and have attended countless levayos both in the UK and other countries. the use of a coffin is extremely widespread and is not just used because of local laws.
24
Oct 28, 2008 at 02:23 PM avisonenthal Says:
Here in Baltimore they bury in a coffin and they do NOT slide away the bottom. I assure you that the Baltimore religious community is as frum as any community anywhere in the world. The problem is the complete lack of anything even remotely resembling decent behaviour on the part of the Chevra Kadisha rabbis in Israel. This goes for all the state religious institutions in Israel. There needs to be an oversight committee that can receive complaints about individual rabbis, and fire them if they show an inability to act professionally.
25
Oct 28, 2008 at 03:10 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Here in Baltimore they bury in a coffin and they do NOT slide away the bottom. I assure you that the Baltimore religious community is as frum as any community anywhere in the world. The problem is the complete lack of anything even remotely resembling decent behaviour on the part of the Chevra Kadisha rabbis in Israel. This goes for all the state religious institutions in Israel. There needs to be an oversight committee that can receive complaints about individual rabbis, and fire them if they show an inability to act professionally. ”
by the way does it have a gap ,some big holes on the bottom
26
Oct 28, 2008 at 03:07 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Well, I guess you aren't a member of the Chevra Kedisha. And by the way, some frum Jews do have a viewing...it depends on their Minhagim, I suppose. My cousin A"H had that, it's what her husband wanted. True, it's the only time I heard of it & we didn't look, but weird as it seems to us his family thought it was the norm. They are very frum. No questions, please.
But OMG, try not to be so revolted by death. Calm down & save your emotions to comfort the living. Until Moshiach, death is what happens. Be glad there are people like me who don't feel like you. Otherwise there'd not be any Kovod HaMais & Tahara Kedushin for anyone. ”
Well, I guess you aren't a member of the Chevra Kedisha ether .
You r not to look at a face of a nifter!!!
even the Chevra Kedisha puts a shmta on the face of the nifter
27
Oct 28, 2008 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I do know that only in Eretz Yisroel you are not buried in a coffin. i think that the halacha has to do with being that they are buried in Eretz Yisroel. I am in another Chevra Kadisha and we use coffins. ”
can you tell us y most place's they take out the wooden pc.from under the oron
28
Oct 28, 2008 at 03:21 PM Masmid Says:
“ i am not issuing a psak only making my comment based on Minhag Yisroel Torah. I have been a full time member of our local Chevra Kadisha for nearly ten years and have attended countless levayos both in the UK and other countries. the use of a coffin is extremely widespread and is not just used because of local laws. ”
I am sorry but you make no sense. Have you ever attended a Kevurah in Eretz Yisroel? if yes, did they use a coffin? if the answer is yes, I suggest you have your glass checked by a good doctor.
How can you compare apples to oranges, the point is that this situation is in ISRAEL and not in Machcester England. The Minhogim are different in Eretz Yisroel, so what if you have been involved in many countries, where YOU involved in Eretz Yisroel and they used a coffin????? if yes please give the info.
You see all countries have different laws so the jews have to go along with it, but this is one of the big reasons why over a thousand Jews are transported to Eretz Yisroel for Kevurah every year.
Please respond, Thank you for taking out time.
The (big) Masmid
29
Oct 28, 2008 at 03:25 PM Little Masmid Says:
“ Here in Baltimore they bury in a coffin and they do NOT slide away the bottom. I assure you that the Baltimore religious community is as frum as any community anywhere in the world. The problem is the complete lack of anything even remotely resembling decent behaviour on the part of the Chevra Kadisha rabbis in Israel. This goes for all the state religious institutions in Israel. There needs to be an oversight committee that can receive complaints about individual rabbis, and fire them if they show an inability to act professionally. ”
would you agree that if some one would ask to be berried with out the bottom of the coffin in Baltimore it would net be allowed , same applies in Israel where it's always done "with out" a coffin.
30
Oct 28, 2008 at 04:07 PM ManchesterYid Says:
In manchester (and in london) there are holes cut in the base board as well as on opening by the head side. If local laws would allow than the aron would be scrapped and we would only bury as in Eretz Yisroel, Sliding away the bottom is not allowed in the UK (dos iz gemacht nor far rabonim). and the reason why we use cheap chip board is it should rot quickly therefore the mes would be lying al pi halocho.
Wishing all viewers till Chiam Toivim Uleshulem till 120
31
Oct 28, 2008 at 06:24 PM MGirl Says:
“ This is the goriest story I ever heard! Im sure they wanted to do a "WAKE" aka VIEWING. THe goyim do that. THey dress up the meis in their best, put them in an open coffin and all the guests walk past the coffin. YUK! ”
to OMG,
You are probably a little naive school girl. Get off the internet, quick! and grow up!
32
Oct 28, 2008 at 07:26 PM Anonymous Says:
“ #8, Anon 11:25, If the Zionists disregarded Torah, it is because the frum fought against them long before. Had the frum embraced their noble idea of returning to EY, there would have been achdus, and the wishes of the frum would have been accomodated. ”
The original Zionists came from frum family's. Why did the frum fight against them??
The noble idea of returning to EY. What about the noble idea of keeping Shabbos etc
Returning to EY. you mean to live in EY. Returning is only when Moshiach comes. Achdus Huh???? We should all dance to their tune and then what???? They ?? will respect our wishes and accommodate them?? What will be left to accommodate if we G-D Forbid would be like them??? Only because of those few Frum Jews who fought with all their might do we have Torah growing in EY. Only because of Torah is EY standing today. Not because of the Zionists.
33
Oct 28, 2008 at 10:04 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Well, I guess you aren't a member of the Chevra Kedisha ether .
You r not to look at a face of a nifter!!!
even the Chevra Kedisha puts a shmta on the face of the nifter
”
I will answer your hysterical & illiterate ravings if only to try to clarify some confusion you obviously have.
You are wrong...unfortunately I am a Chevra Kedisha member (I wish I was out of business as do all my colleagues.) I have participated in countless Taharas & some situations will remain with me till I die.
We treat a Niftar with dignity. Tragically, death is not very dignified much of the time & our job is to do all we can within Halacha. We only want to be called out to tend to people of a very great age who die peacefully in their sleep at home. Not the babies, accident victims, people who died during surgery, etc etc.
As a Chevra Kedisha member I will not discuss protocol of Tahara as it is forbidden. So you may or may not speculate on what occurs during a Tahara until you are (no pun intended) blue in the face. But I will say this: I never mentioned looking at the face of the Niftar. You might want to read my post again.
Satisfied now?
34
Oct 29, 2008 at 12:23 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I will answer your hysterical & illiterate ravings if only to try to clarify some confusion you obviously have.
You are wrong...unfortunately I am a Chevra Kedisha member (I wish I was out of business as do all my colleagues.) I have participated in countless Taharas & some situations will remain with me till I die.
We treat a Niftar with dignity. Tragically, death is not very dignified much of the time & our job is to do all we can within Halacha. We only want to be called out to tend to people of a very great age who die peacefully in their sleep at home. Not the babies, accident victims, people who died during surgery, etc etc.
As a Chevra Kedisha member I will not discuss protocol of Tahara as it is forbidden. So you may or may not speculate on what occurs during a Tahara until you are (no pun intended) blue in the face. But I will say this: I never mentioned looking at the face of the Niftar. You might want to read my post again.
Satisfied now?
”
Well, I guess you aren't a member of the Chevra Kedisha. And by the way, some frum Jews do have a viewing...it depends on their Minhagim, I suppose. My cousin A"H had that, it's what her
So please explain this viewing thing you posted
And please explain this line too I did not get it
So you may or may not speculate on what occurs during a Tahara until you are (no pun intended) blue in the face.
By the way I am a member and have no problem let ppl know that looking ad the face of a nifter is Kosha l’shikcha.
Thanks
35
Oct 30, 2008 at 05:21 AM matzahlocal101 Says:
The chevra kadisha (the perushim) have their rules and do not bend for anyone. They have a set price for karka that does not fluctuate if you have a rolex and Gucci shoes. they GIVE TONS OF MONEY TO YERUSHALMI CHASSANIM AND KALLAHS, told to me by an eye witness yesterday while telling how transported a relative for burial. If you don't want to the job, don't bad mouth those who do. (Think about reburials after a few months pushing up daisies.) Thet're called chevra kadisha for a reason.
36
Oct 30, 2008 at 04:05 PM CK in Baltimore Says:
“ Here in Baltimore they bury in a coffin and they do NOT slide away the bottom. I assure you that the Baltimore religious community is as frum as any community anywhere in the world. The problem is the complete lack of anything even remotely resembling decent behaviour on the part of the Chevra Kadisha rabbis in Israel. This goes for all the state religious institutions in Israel. There needs to be an oversight committee that can receive complaints about individual rabbis, and fire them if they show an inability to act professionally. ”
I have to clarify. I am heavily involved in the CK in Baltimore and we too the sliding bottom coffin here in Baltimore. The way it works is like this. It holds its own like a regular pine box and from the top it looks the same. The bottom panels however, have rope attached to them, so that once the meis is in the ground (in the box) 4 people (1 at each corner) can pull the ropes and the bottom (which is made of 2 pieces of wood) slide up the side and the meis is now directly on the ground. For the most part we use the simple pine box, but there are "many" cases where the rabbanim (or the family) have asked for the slip bottom coffin. I hope that clarifies both the type of coffin people are talking about and what happens in Baltimore.
37
Oct 30, 2008 at 04:08 PM CK in Baltimore Says:
“ would you agree that if some one would ask to be berried with out the bottom of the coffin in Baltimore it would net be allowed , same applies in Israel where it's always done "with out" a coffin. ”
It is "allowed" but the issue is not pushed!