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New York - Brooklyn TV Tackles Thorny Subject Of Secular Education In Chasidic Yeshivos

Published on: October 19, 2015 06:36 PM
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Brick TV host, Amy Sara Clark, Naftuli Moster and Ezra FriedlanderBrick TV host, Amy Sara Clark, Naftuli Moster and Ezra Friedlander

New York - In a video interview released today on BRIC TV, a round the clock Brooklyn based channel discussing issues of interest to Kings County residents, three outspoken voices shared their thought on whether Chasidic yeshivas are providing students with an appropriate secular education. 

The controversial topic is the subject of an active investigation by the city’s Department of Education and was debated by Amy Sara Clark, Naftuli Moster and Ezra Friedlander.

Clark, a deputy managing editor for The Jewish Week, is an investigative reporter who co-authored an in depth four part series detailing how Chasidic yeshivos are failing their students. The report, a joint collaboration between The Jewish Week and WNYC, faults the DOE for consistently looking the other way when it comes to questions regarding the quality of secular education offered in Chasidic yeshivos.

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Naftuli Moster, founder of Young Advocates For Fair Education, is himself the product of a Chasidic yeshiva who feels that the yeshiva system failed him miserably.

In an attempt to force yeshivos to offer a more in depth secular education, Moster has taken out billboards advocating for his cause and most recently, contacted the DOE, urging them to investigate 39 yeshivos and force them to provide a secular education that is substantially equivalent to that offered by the public school system.

Ezra Friedlander, CEO of the Friedlander Group, has come out publicly against Moster and YAFFED, accusing them of sensationalizing the issue in order to discredit the Chasidic community and to undermine its educational system.

According to Friedlander, changes to the yeshiva system may well be needed but those modifications should be the result of requests by the parent body and not that of outsiders who may be driven by their own personal agendas.

Watch below video as Moster and Friedlander dish it out.
Courtesy of BRICK TV Brooklyn 


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1

 Oct 19, 2015 at 06:54 PM belz boy Says:

Tuly, I went thru the same education system as you, and somehow I am a successful business owner and a proud huspand and father and living a happy life, I started my business on my own, I do my own accounting and I run my own marketing and I have real estate investment on the side, all my math Grammer and english I learned in the same chaider as you, the only difference is that I wasn't the BULLY in the class like you, no I wasn't the one that threw "bubkes" on the teacher as you I had good marks on my tests, I didn't crawl over the gate on 41st street to run home in middle class.
Maybe if you would have saichel as me you would be more succesfull in life.
Your classmate
MR

2

 Oct 19, 2015 at 06:57 PM ayoyo Says:

If you don't remember ,or know, the great yeshivas in litta closed their doors rather that take up secular subject matter that the govt. insisted they study. We have the opportunity to go to other schools if we don't want to study the subjects that are or aren't being taught there We have the prerogative to open schools that will use the curriculum that we wish.
These misfits want to run the orthodox schools as they wish?,let them go and form a school system that they wish.

3

 Oct 19, 2015 at 07:08 PM shvigger Says:

So what is the purpose of the Yeshiva, rasha moster?

4

 Oct 19, 2015 at 07:13 PM Don't bash Says:

My children go to Chassidish Chedarim in Brooklyn.
While many problems exist, Moster is definitely here with an agenda to paint our schools in a dark light.

Leave it up to the parents to change the system.
Today's parents are not the parents of 30 years ago.
We are here to live with times and give a better education to our children.

Though Moster apparently, still lives with the times of 3 decades ago.

5

 Oct 19, 2015 at 07:30 PM It's simple... Says:

It's simple. If the schools take ANY government or grant money in any way, they then have a "partner" they need to answer to. You can't have it both ways.

6

 Oct 19, 2015 at 07:58 PM Out of towner Says:

Ezra torn this guy to shreds.

7

 Oct 19, 2015 at 08:15 PM Proud Yeshiva Parent Says:

Ezra, you where great!
The other person has an agenda... It's self understood. If he is so ipset on the current yeshiva system, let him put his own kids in public school...

8

 Oct 19, 2015 at 08:37 PM i went to a chasidisge Says:

Friedlander is correct. Moster is looking to blame people for his issues when in fact he should be looking straight into the mirror.

9

 Oct 19, 2015 at 08:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
belz boy Says:

Tuly, I went thru the same education system as you, and somehow I am a successful business owner and a proud huspand and father and living a happy life, I started my business on my own, I do my own accounting and I run my own marketing and I have real estate investment on the side, all my math Grammer and english I learned in the same chaider as you, the only difference is that I wasn't the BULLY in the class like you, no I wasn't the one that threw "bubkes" on the teacher as you I had good marks on my tests, I didn't crawl over the gate on 41st street to run home in middle class.
Maybe if you would have saichel as me you would be more succesfull in life.
Your classmate
MR

You can barely write so I doubt you are as successful as you claim. Do you think it's ok for our kinder to graduate and not be able to read a street sign or know the difference between a city, state, country, or not know who the president of the US is? If you give them a dollar and an item is 75 cents, they don't know they should get 25 cents change......they can't add or subtract! They have no idea where babies come from when they graduate. They have no idea how to get pregnant.

10

 Oct 19, 2015 at 09:12 PM belz boy Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

You can barely write so I doubt you are as successful as you claim. Do you think it's ok for our kinder to graduate and not be able to read a street sign or know the difference between a city, state, country, or not know who the president of the US is? If you give them a dollar and an item is 75 cents, they don't know they should get 25 cents change......they can't add or subtract! They have no idea where babies come from when they graduate. They have no idea how to get pregnant.

My 10 year old which goes to the same chaider as I went knows how to read street signs he knows who is president and he knows exactly how much change he has to get after a purchase, and so did I when I was his age, and no he does not know how a women becomes pregnant he is still under 18!
you don't have to be a professional writer to be successful.

11

 Oct 19, 2015 at 09:42 PM 2015 parent Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

You can barely write so I doubt you are as successful as you claim. Do you think it's ok for our kinder to graduate and not be able to read a street sign or know the difference between a city, state, country, or not know who the president of the US is? If you give them a dollar and an item is 75 cents, they don't know they should get 25 cents change......they can't add or subtract! They have no idea where babies come from when they graduate. They have no idea how to get pregnant.

Give me a break.
My Belz Boys know street signs in their dreams.
They know math like pros.
They spell pretty good and read good too.

Of course, I as a parent enforce their good behavior in Cheder, and I help them with their English classes every night at home.

But the school is not what it used to be and the parents these days are 100 percent devoted to their children learning English.

12

 Oct 19, 2015 at 09:51 PM Judith Says:

officially, half of all Haredi families live below the poverty line, with a full 60% of large families carrying that label. Monster is correct.

13

 Oct 19, 2015 at 09:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

You can barely write so I doubt you are as successful as you claim. Do you think it's ok for our kinder to graduate and not be able to read a street sign or know the difference between a city, state, country, or not know who the president of the US is? If you give them a dollar and an item is 75 cents, they don't know they should get 25 cents change......they can't add or subtract! They have no idea where babies come from when they graduate. They have no idea how to get pregnant.

Wow...they need to know how to get pregnant when they graduate? Well guess,what... 99% of the student body will disagree w you on that! If thats what you care to know, why dont u instruct ur children about the birds and the bees in the privacy of your own home. NOBODY is stoppi ng you...but most parents will NOT agree with your idea of filling up their mind with stuff that will distract them and infringe on the purity of their souls! Go give ur kids sex-ed...if that's what your agenda is really about! And I assume that it is

14

 Oct 19, 2015 at 09:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
belz boy Says:

My 10 year old which goes to the same chaider as I went knows how to read street signs he knows who is president and he knows exactly how much change he has to get after a purchase, and so did I when I was his age, and no he does not know how a women becomes pregnant he is still under 18!
you don't have to be a professional writer to be successful.

If that is the sum total of your 10 year old child's secular knowledge, than you and the chaider he attends are mamash guilty of child abuse and it is questionable if you should be allowed to raise your children so they cannot communicate effectively and perform at a level needed to earn a paranassah. If a yeshiva accepts public funding it should be held to minimal standards of educational reform.

15

 Oct 19, 2015 at 09:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Mr Moster...agreed that some kids need to brush up on their English skills; however the basic premise of your campaign is vindictive and vengeful. ..we all know your history...and if you were so angry at the lack thereof, pray tell what doe ,G...d have to do with it...cause you seem to have unleashed your anger on him too!

16

 Oct 19, 2015 at 10:22 PM David11205 Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

You can barely write so I doubt you are as successful as you claim. Do you think it's ok for our kinder to graduate and not be able to read a street sign or know the difference between a city, state, country, or not know who the president of the US is? If you give them a dollar and an item is 75 cents, they don't know they should get 25 cents change......they can't add or subtract! They have no idea where babies come from when they graduate. They have no idea how to get pregnant.

I am a very proud Cahsiddish Yingerman with 6 kids, I went to college and got my masters degree,thank God that I graduated and got a good job (I earn more then 150k)
Is my English perfect? No, but I passed all my tests, I can read English, I can spell english, I know math,
Is my Gramer the most professional? No
Where am I wrong?
Thanks god that our community helps out each other, we don't have so many at risks kids (compared to other communities) thank god we have only a very small percentage of our kids become drug addicts ect, thank god that my kids know how to read English, and yes they read English books, that learn history, they learn math,
What am I missing?
Tuly, let's have a real conversation,
You know that this fight you can never win, we won't change our system, do we have room to improve? Of course, but let's be honest with our selves about your agenda and where you stand with our religion in general,

17

 Oct 19, 2015 at 10:44 PM jason Says:

I don't like when the government tries to mandate doctrine to private institutions. Though it could be argued that there is a public good issue here if a large percentage of the graduates are on public assistance.

Though Friedlander is correct in that the change needs to come from within by the parents. Since the parents are paying tuition they should have the power to do so. Otherwise I fear a vicious cycle of people on public assistance raising kids who will be on public assistance which is ultimately unsustainable and the government will in the end be forced to come in and change the education. Self sustainabilityis very important if you don't want government interference. The Amish are known to shun welfare and do not take any government assistance and the community is self sustainable and I don't know for sure but i would bet the government is not investigating the Amish education system

18

 Oct 19, 2015 at 10:59 PM David11205 Says:

Reply to #11  
2015 parent Says:

Give me a break.
My Belz Boys know street signs in their dreams.
They know math like pros.
They spell pretty good and read good too.

Of course, I as a parent enforce their good behavior in Cheder, and I help them with their English classes every night at home.

But the school is not what it used to be and the parents these days are 100 percent devoted to their children learning English.

I agree with you, my boys go to Pupa
And they read and speak and spell very well English, and guess what, one child goes to a title 1 teachers and it helped him to understand how to do math and he learned with him english,

19

 Oct 19, 2015 at 11:27 PM Anonymous Says:

I agree Mr. Moster has an agenda but I think Mr Friedlander lost this debate by making money some kind of issue. Money has absolutely nothing to do with the problem Mr. Moster is talking about. The moderator kept asking Mr Friedlander how would money change the situation. The fact is everyone can use more money but money won't change the attitudes or mind set of the chasidishe parents. The parents may complain in private but parents will continue talking to their children only in Yiddish The yeshivos will never agree to have English past bar mitzvah As long as this doesn't change neither will the education.

20

 Oct 19, 2015 at 11:53 PM boroparkermom Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

You can barely write so I doubt you are as successful as you claim. Do you think it's ok for our kinder to graduate and not be able to read a street sign or know the difference between a city, state, country, or not know who the president of the US is? If you give them a dollar and an item is 75 cents, they don't know they should get 25 cents change......they can't add or subtract! They have no idea where babies come from when they graduate. They have no idea how to get pregnant.

What is your issue ??!! If you dont like the chasidishe school system than send to public school where the kids learn how to treat their friends like animals. (Btw my 7 year old son in a chasidishe bp cheder knows math reading spelling on his age level !! )

21

 Oct 20, 2015 at 12:08 AM jack-l Says:

One guy in 10 has a good job or becomes a giveer and everyone starts raving that here is proof that you don`t need to know how to read and write. What about the other 9 that need welfare ,food stamps, go door knocking and help from a zeidi (if he still has anything) or the shver. Must be so proud that their children will be door knockers too. So proud. All in the name of Torah.
By the way all you chasedishe commentators ......they invented spell check.
Try it some time.

22

 Oct 20, 2015 at 04:10 AM Anonymous Says:

I was recently thinking about the importance of the quality of an English Education and how it impacts ones ability to earn a parnossah, and the conclusion I came to was that it has almost no impact.

Algebra, Geomotry, Trigonometry, have no relevance to most careers. Biology, Chemistry, the same thing. I happened to always have an interest in History, but can't really see where it helped me. Geography has been useful as I have customers all over the U.S. and some internationally.

As far as language arts, I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. Communication are often via email, and brevity supersedes grammatical prowess.

Not everyone can be a business owner, however there are programs available where one can become a CPA, get a degree in computer science. For those who want to seek careers in other fields, most yeshivas are accredited, and those credits cam be transferred.

I am not familiar with the Chassidish education, as I come from a Yeshivish background. The biggest detriment towards parnossah that I see is that people get in the game a few years too late.

23

 Oct 20, 2015 at 08:22 AM Redleg Says:

Reply to #2  
ayoyo Says:

If you don't remember ,or know, the great yeshivas in litta closed their doors rather that take up secular subject matter that the govt. insisted they study. We have the opportunity to go to other schools if we don't want to study the subjects that are or aren't being taught there We have the prerogative to open schools that will use the curriculum that we wish.
These misfits want to run the orthodox schools as they wish?,let them go and form a school system that they wish.

The story of how the Volozhiner Yeshiva closed rather than teach secular subjects (Russian Language and Math) is a myth. After the 1883 decree and after protest, argument and a brief closing, the Yeshiva did, in fact, reopen and teach, those subjects. albeit in a different building. The Yeshiva was finally closed by the Russian Government in 1905 after the abortive 1905 revolution in which many bachurim were involved.

This from my Zeide, O"H who was there.

24

 Oct 20, 2015 at 10:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
jack-l Says:

One guy in 10 has a good job or becomes a giveer and everyone starts raving that here is proof that you don`t need to know how to read and write. What about the other 9 that need welfare ,food stamps, go door knocking and help from a zeidi (if he still has anything) or the shver. Must be so proud that their children will be door knockers too. So proud. All in the name of Torah.
By the way all you chasedishe commentators ......they invented spell check.
Try it some time.

Take your own advice and use spell check too! I guess brains aren't your strong suit, hypocrite.

25

 Oct 20, 2015 at 10:11 AM Anonymous Says:

I didn't realize Buckwheat (little rascals) was still alive!

26

 Oct 20, 2015 at 10:17 AM Anonymous Says:

I've never seen so many uneducated posters brag about keeping our kids illiterate. As parents, you and the government will have to support these children forever, and yet, you are PROUD of ignorance!!

27

 Oct 20, 2015 at 10:20 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
David11205 Says:

I agree with you, my boys go to Pupa
And they read and speak and spell very well English, and guess what, one child goes to a title 1 teachers and it helped him to understand how to do math and he learned with him english,

"and it helped him to understand how to do math and he learned with him english,"

You should "learn with him english" also. Unbelievable in 2015!

28

 Oct 20, 2015 at 10:29 AM PatersonMan Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

If that is the sum total of your 10 year old child's secular knowledge, than you and the chaider he attends are mamash guilty of child abuse and it is questionable if you should be allowed to raise your children so they cannot communicate effectively and perform at a level needed to earn a paranassah. If a yeshiva accepts public funding it should be held to minimal standards of educational reform.

I am an assistant principal, as well as Title I supervisor in a Cheder in Monsey, which caters to Chassidic and non-Chassidic students. MYTH DEBUNKED: We are NOT supplied funds for classroom teachers of secular subjects. This is against State law [separation of Church & State]. We only receive two types of funds: (1) State funds for secular-subject books [reading, math, grammar, etc.], hardware/ software [secular] as requested by the school, and magazines [such as Binyan]. (2) Title I / Title III monies, which is primarily used to pay wages to Tutors to help weak students in Language Arts and/or Math. These tutors must keep extremely detailed logs of the subject, books, students and times taught. Therefore, we are in full compliance with Government regulations.

29

 Oct 20, 2015 at 11:14 AM Eli Wagschal Says:

Dear all, we are B”H a bright community, the proof is in the pudding. There are many successful entrepreneurs within the Chasidish community who earn more than the average formally educated American. The study of Talmud teaches analytical skills and logical reasoning in a more comprehensive manner than any teacher or formal course does. Hence the many successful people in our community.
However, that is not to say that education system isn’t flawed. The average white collar job, nowadays, requires a college degree. For a Chasid to earn a degree takes tremendous effort, determination, and strong will. Don’t fool yourselves. Our system does not prepare our kids for college. As someone who has been through it, I know. Success has no limit.
A majority of Chasidim do not have the courage to go to college, and some who do, often lose their confidence upon realizing that they are not remotely prepared for it (I was on the verge of dropping out more than once). Therefore, bright young men with the brains and skills to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, and executives are forced to take on low or middle class blue collar jobs in order to provide for their families.

30

 Oct 20, 2015 at 11:15 AM Eli Wagschal Says:

If only they would a get a most basic general education.
The proof is in the pudding. Many Chasidim are extremely successful at what they do. Can you imagine how successful they could have been hadn’t they been robbed of a most basic education? It is time for the parents to stand up and demand a better education for their children. It is time for parents to wake up and realize what has been known for years, education is the future. We no longer need to sacrifice our beliefs or way of life in exchange for education. It is time for parents to stop robbing their children’s future and instead provide them with the opportunity that every child deserves, a chance at succeeding. Success is limitless.

31

 Oct 20, 2015 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I was recently thinking about the importance of the quality of an English Education and how it impacts ones ability to earn a parnossah, and the conclusion I came to was that it has almost no impact.

Algebra, Geomotry, Trigonometry, have no relevance to most careers. Biology, Chemistry, the same thing. I happened to always have an interest in History, but can't really see where it helped me. Geography has been useful as I have customers all over the U.S. and some internationally.

As far as language arts, I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. Communication are often via email, and brevity supersedes grammatical prowess.

Not everyone can be a business owner, however there are programs available where one can become a CPA, get a degree in computer science. For those who want to seek careers in other fields, most yeshivas are accredited, and those credits cam be transferred.

I am not familiar with the Chassidish education, as I come from a Yeshivish background. The biggest detriment towards parnossah that I see is that people get in the game a few years too late.

Either you are a liar or just dreaming!
A lot of higher paying jobs require a 4 years college degree. Even to become a state licensed electrician you need to have a college degree in 2015.
You cannot enter any college in 2015 without any REAL high school diploma having passed the NY state Regents exam or taking the States GED exam. No college will accept the local yeshiva high school diplomas as valid. Talking from experience.
In order to be even considered at any college you need to write an essay, know fractions, decimals and some Algebra; which most chassidish graduates are lacking this skillset. It doesn’t matter the subjects “relevance to most careers” YOU will not got accepted to any collage in 2015 period.
Since 2009 in order to pass the CPA exam the law requires you have a minimum: A bachelor's or higher degree from a program that is registered by the Department as meeting New York's 150 semester hour education requirements. Taking a bookkeeping class at Cope Institute, will earn you a $20 an hour job. While passing the CPA exam you will earn over $100K.
Even if you earned 90 credits / 3 years at a local yeshiva! Any secular college will only give you 30/36 or so equivalent credits. Talking from experience.
So here we have the highest paid chassidish lobbyist getting paid by the yeshivas who doesn’t even know to calculate his tips/bill at restaurants (Because some else is usually paying it) Ezra Friedlander taking the stand!

32

 Oct 20, 2015 at 11:38 AM Fact Checker Says:

Reply to #2  
ayoyo Says:

If you don't remember ,or know, the great yeshivas in litta closed their doors rather that take up secular subject matter that the govt. insisted they study. We have the opportunity to go to other schools if we don't want to study the subjects that are or aren't being taught there We have the prerogative to open schools that will use the curriculum that we wish.
These misfits want to run the orthodox schools as they wish?,let them go and form a school system that they wish.

That is incorrect. Its a myth feed to the masses by naive rosh yeshivas. Check up the facts. Volozin did indeed have secular studies. It only closed down when the government said that the primary focus of the day should be secular studies. In ther words only learn torah at night or late afternoon. Vloozin also had in fighting and ongoing politics with yeshivas mir in Lita. But it was not due to secular studies per say.

33

 Oct 20, 2015 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I was recently thinking about the importance of the quality of an English Education and how it impacts ones ability to earn a parnossah, and the conclusion I came to was that it has almost no impact.

Algebra, Geomotry, Trigonometry, have no relevance to most careers. Biology, Chemistry, the same thing. I happened to always have an interest in History, but can't really see where it helped me. Geography has been useful as I have customers all over the U.S. and some internationally.

As far as language arts, I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. Communication are often via email, and brevity supersedes grammatical prowess.

Not everyone can be a business owner, however there are programs available where one can become a CPA, get a degree in computer science. For those who want to seek careers in other fields, most yeshivas are accredited, and those credits cam be transferred.

I am not familiar with the Chassidish education, as I come from a Yeshivish background. The biggest detriment towards parnossah that I see is that people get in the game a few years too late.

Algebra is used in almost every professional field from whether its nurses, accountants, lawyers, etc..
I do agree with you on the grammer part. But then why not have schools teach our kids more about computers? No you don't need to teach about the triefina internet. But almost all jobs require tech skills. Children should come out of high school knowing microsoft office cold (including excel). That is something that lags in the charedi world. Even rabbeim use word. Speak to any CPA who graduated from Touro or PCS and they will tell you that when the fruma olim enters the corpoarte world one of their biggest challanges are tech skills. The colleges only scratch the surface. Plus tech skills is only something one can aquire with years of learning and using it. Excel is not something learned very well via one college course. Thats why it should be ingrained in kids form High school.

34

 Oct 20, 2015 at 11:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I was recently thinking about the importance of the quality of an English Education and how it impacts ones ability to earn a parnossah, and the conclusion I came to was that it has almost no impact.

Algebra, Geomotry, Trigonometry, have no relevance to most careers. Biology, Chemistry, the same thing. I happened to always have an interest in History, but can't really see where it helped me. Geography has been useful as I have customers all over the U.S. and some internationally.

As far as language arts, I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. Communication are often via email, and brevity supersedes grammatical prowess.

Not everyone can be a business owner, however there are programs available where one can become a CPA, get a degree in computer science. For those who want to seek careers in other fields, most yeshivas are accredited, and those credits cam be transferred.

I am not familiar with the Chassidish education, as I come from a Yeshivish background. The biggest detriment towards parnossah that I see is that people get in the game a few years too late.

Here's the million dollar question and perhaps belz boy can answer it. Lets leave out elementary schools for a second. I think most elemenatry schools do offer a decent education. But what about the high schools? Do chasidish mesiftas offer secular studies? And here is what's more troubling. What are our High school bochrim doing all day? Is a 9th grader ready to sit & learn all day? What end sup happening. The chasidish bouchrim hock about rebas and waste away half the day. The yeshivish hock about yeshivish politcis all day. They grow up learning to be krazters of time. I know tis for a fact as I was a mentor at one point for both yeshivish and chasidish bocuhrim. The rabbeim struggle with this issue to. Some of them secrety wish there were secular studies. But they know that if they dear say anything their mesifita would be put in the doghouse.
Bottom line belz boy please tell me what are mesifta bocuhrim doing with their time all day? And please don't tell me they are learning flasig. Thats nonsense.

35

 Oct 20, 2015 at 12:35 PM commonsense99 Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

Algebra is used in almost every professional field from whether its nurses, accountants, lawyers, etc..
I do agree with you on the grammer part. But then why not have schools teach our kids more about computers? No you don't need to teach about the triefina internet. But almost all jobs require tech skills. Children should come out of high school knowing microsoft office cold (including excel). That is something that lags in the charedi world. Even rabbeim use word. Speak to any CPA who graduated from Touro or PCS and they will tell you that when the fruma olim enters the corpoarte world one of their biggest challanges are tech skills. The colleges only scratch the surface. Plus tech skills is only something one can aquire with years of learning and using it. Excel is not something learned very well via one college course. Thats why it should be ingrained in kids form High school.

Listen to what the other side said [friedlander] yes we can use improvement, and we should effect the change from within not by some outside.
To #31 I came thru the hemishe/ chasidish cheder sysytem and went on to college I came as a transfer student from yeshiva and being that I a transfer student I did not need to show my HS stuff just my yeshiva transcripts. was my college schooling tough? yes without a shadow of a doubt, yet I maintained a 3.75 GPA. I make a very decent living and my boys can outdo any public school employee on any subject matter.

36

 Oct 20, 2015 at 12:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I was recently thinking about the importance of the quality of an English Education and how it impacts ones ability to earn a parnossah, and the conclusion I came to was that it has almost no impact.

Algebra, Geomotry, Trigonometry, have no relevance to most careers. Biology, Chemistry, the same thing. I happened to always have an interest in History, but can't really see where it helped me. Geography has been useful as I have customers all over the U.S. and some internationally.

As far as language arts, I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. Communication are often via email, and brevity supersedes grammatical prowess.

Not everyone can be a business owner, however there are programs available where one can become a CPA, get a degree in computer science. For those who want to seek careers in other fields, most yeshivas are accredited, and those credits cam be transferred.

I am not familiar with the Chassidish education, as I come from a Yeshivish background. The biggest detriment towards parnossah that I see is that people get in the game a few years too late.

You said that “I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. “

I actually work in a fortune 500 company. In every meeting conducted in a conference room your are still required to write down notes on notepad paper with a pen and sometimes you need to write stuff on the whiteboard all done with magic markers.

Can you name me one fortune 500 corporation where “written skills no longer have much value. “ I would like to apply there for a job!

37

 Oct 20, 2015 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Out of towner Says:

Ezra torn this guy to shreds.

More MONEY will slave this issue Ezra whom are you kidding? Look at the two biggest United Talmudical yeshivas here in Queens and the one in Kiryas Joel.

They are getting from Federal Pell and State TAP college programs over $11,000 a year per student. Now more money than ever! Do you think that they have hired at least one teacher for Math and English? No! They have hired more principals and religious teachers. 25 years ago they had 1 principal for 500 boys and now they have 10 principals for 1000 boys and 4 religious teachers per class instead of 2 teachers learning the same religious topics.

Half of the faculties staff are family related so more family members from kollel could get a job at the yeshiva. None of the increase in collage funds is going towards secular studies. You are an example a well-paid lobbyist paid by the yeshivas for the yeshivas.

Money is absolutely not the problem! The establishment at the top is problem. If you open your mouth your kids will not be accepted the next year in school and nobody will marry your kids afterwards!

38

 Oct 20, 2015 at 02:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

You said that “I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. “

I actually work in a fortune 500 company. In every meeting conducted in a conference room your are still required to write down notes on notepad paper with a pen and sometimes you need to write stuff on the whiteboard all done with magic markers.

Can you name me one fortune 500 corporation where “written skills no longer have much value. “ I would like to apply there for a job!

shtusim. It has nothing to do with money. Its ideaology. Come on Ezra, even if they had money secular studies is treif for mesifta boys. So rather let them kratz the day away.Who are you kidding?

39

 Oct 20, 2015 at 02:11 PM #33 Says:

Reply to #35  
commonsense99 Says:

Listen to what the other side said [friedlander] yes we can use improvement, and we should effect the change from within not by some outside.
To #31 I came thru the hemishe/ chasidish cheder sysytem and went on to college I came as a transfer student from yeshiva and being that I a transfer student I did not need to show my HS stuff just my yeshiva transcripts. was my college schooling tough? yes without a shadow of a doubt, yet I maintained a 3.75 GPA. I make a very decent living and my boys can outdo any public school employee on any subject matter.

Thats baloney cahnge will never come from within. You know that. Parents get bullied into doing a chasidis's will. If you question them you are a kofer.

40

 Oct 20, 2015 at 02:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

You said that “I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. “

I actually work in a fortune 500 company. In every meeting conducted in a conference room your are still required to write down notes on notepad paper with a pen and sometimes you need to write stuff on the whiteboard all done with magic markers.

Can you name me one fortune 500 corporation where “written skills no longer have much value. “ I would like to apply there for a job!

I can but I won't publicize where I work. As I posted grammer is irrelevant. Yes we occasionally have meetings using the white board. But 1) its usually only for small pointers 2) The overhwhelmingly majorty is via powerpoint. That brings me back to my main point. Teach secular studies but focus on microsoft office.

41

 Oct 20, 2015 at 02:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

You said that “I deal with heads of departments in fortune 500 corporations, and while it is very important to be well spoken, written skills no longer have much value. “

I actually work in a fortune 500 company. In every meeting conducted in a conference room your are still required to write down notes on notepad paper with a pen and sometimes you need to write stuff on the whiteboard all done with magic markers.

Can you name me one fortune 500 corporation where “written skills no longer have much value. “ I would like to apply there for a job!

Ezra,
Answer the question should there be any secular education in high school yes or no? You are afraid to say yes huh?? Ok so let our mesifta bouchrim kratz the day away because they all learn 14 hrs a day.

42

 Oct 20, 2015 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Don't bash Says:

My children go to Chassidish Chedarim in Brooklyn.
While many problems exist, Moster is definitely here with an agenda to paint our schools in a dark light.

Leave it up to the parents to change the system.
Today's parents are not the parents of 30 years ago.
We are here to live with times and give a better education to our children.

Though Moster apparently, still lives with the times of 3 decades ago.

What are you talking about PARENTS ??? In 2015 parents are just happy that their kids got accepted in school. Look at how many kids Monsey weren’t accepted in any school this year. Parents have NO input in the chassidish education. Parents are just terrorized and petrified to say a word.

It’s unbelievable the open discrimination what’s going on in chassidish schools if the government would only know 10% of the discrimination they would’ve open lawsuits against the yeshivas and shut them down.

In the 21st century some charity organizations are still busy fundraising money for kiruv. While at the same time we throw out hundreds of kids from the yeshiva system if the parents open their mouths to ask for a better education.

43

 Oct 20, 2015 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

Either you are a liar or just dreaming!
A lot of higher paying jobs require a 4 years college degree. Even to become a state licensed electrician you need to have a college degree in 2015.
You cannot enter any college in 2015 without any REAL high school diploma having passed the NY state Regents exam or taking the States GED exam. No college will accept the local yeshiva high school diplomas as valid. Talking from experience.
In order to be even considered at any college you need to write an essay, know fractions, decimals and some Algebra; which most chassidish graduates are lacking this skillset. It doesn’t matter the subjects “relevance to most careers” YOU will not got accepted to any collage in 2015 period.
Since 2009 in order to pass the CPA exam the law requires you have a minimum: A bachelor's or higher degree from a program that is registered by the Department as meeting New York's 150 semester hour education requirements. Taking a bookkeeping class at Cope Institute, will earn you a $20 an hour job. While passing the CPA exam you will earn over $100K.
Even if you earned 90 credits / 3 years at a local yeshiva! Any secular college will only give you 30/36 or so equivalent credits. Talking from experience.
So here we have the highest paid chassidish lobbyist getting paid by the yeshivas who doesn’t even know to calculate his tips/bill at restaurants (Because some else is usually paying it) Ezra Friedlander taking the stand!

Just to be clear I do believe in secular education.
But the Cope class you refer to, also has a masters progarm adminstered by FDU. So what commenter #22 is suggesting is that you can have no degree walk into the aguda office and be a or atleast earn a masters in accounting within about 2 yrs. Many then go on to work at PWC for a starting salary of 60k.
However, I still believe in a secular education because I think 9th graders do nothing with thier time anyhow. Facts are they ca't learn gemara all day. Its just physcally impossible.

44

 Oct 20, 2015 at 04:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
Anonymous Says:

I can but I won't publicize where I work. As I posted grammer is irrelevant. Yes we occasionally have meetings using the white board. But 1) its usually only for small pointers 2) The overhwhelmingly majorty is via powerpoint. That brings me back to my main point. Teach secular studies but focus on microsoft office.

Some pointers on the whiteboard; PowerPoints etc. Sounds like a salesperson? So you are not working at a fortune 500 company? Rather more like you are trying a salespitch to sell something for a fortune 500 company.

It’s a big difference getting hired by a fortune 500 company versus selling something to.

45

 Oct 20, 2015 at 05:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

Some pointers on the whiteboard; PowerPoints etc. Sounds like a salesperson? So you are not working at a fortune 500 company? Rather more like you are trying a salespitch to sell something for a fortune 500 company.

It’s a big difference getting hired by a fortune 500 company versus selling something to.

I work as a professional in the corporarte offices for a fortune 500. I am not a salesman. And writing skills are just unimportant compared to tech skills. In fact there are many very wise Asians who can't speak a normal english nor write complete sentences. Yet, they are huge assets for the company. Asians are very tech savy and they are hard workers.

46

 Oct 20, 2015 at 05:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

Just to be clear I do believe in secular education.
But the Cope class you refer to, also has a masters progarm adminstered by FDU. So what commenter #22 is suggesting is that you can have no degree walk into the aguda office and be a or atleast earn a masters in accounting within about 2 yrs. Many then go on to work at PWC for a starting salary of 60k.
However, I still believe in a secular education because I think 9th graders do nothing with thier time anyhow. Facts are they ca't learn gemara all day. Its just physcally impossible.

Cope institute Junior Accounting course earns you 21 college credits. You need 120 college credits to be able to take the CPA exam. I'm former student from Cope.

47

 Oct 20, 2015 at 05:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

Cope institute Junior Accounting course earns you 21 college credits. You need 120 college credits to be able to take the CPA exam. I'm former student from Cope.

Yes but lately they have teamed up with FDU as Aguda in NJ does via PCS. You can now travel to Montclair NJ (near monsey) and earn a masters in accounting within 15 months or so upon completion of your junior accoutning at Cope.

48

 Oct 20, 2015 at 09:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

Just to be clear I do believe in secular education.
But the Cope class you refer to, also has a masters progarm adminstered by FDU. So what commenter #22 is suggesting is that you can have no degree walk into the aguda office and be a or atleast earn a masters in accounting within about 2 yrs. Many then go on to work at PWC for a starting salary of 60k.
However, I still believe in a secular education because I think 9th graders do nothing with thier time anyhow. Facts are they ca't learn gemara all day. Its just physcally impossible.

"So what commenter #22 is suggesting is that you can have no degree walk into the aguda office and be a or atleast earn a masters in accounting within about 2 yrs. Many then go on to work at PWC for a starting salary of 60k."

PWC hires from the best colleges in the world and mostly hire IVY League graduates. My brother works for them and I can assure you they have never hired anyone without a degree or who walks into the Aguda office earning a masters in 2 years. If you don't believe me, do a search on LinkedIn and you will see the truth. Who feeds you such nonsense?

49

 Oct 20, 2015 at 09:17 PM Chaim! Says:

I don't really care if Mr Moster has an inner agenda or if it's simply coming out of anger, guess what.. He has the full right to be angry at the system that stinks.
Our newly wed yingaliet have nothing to show for themselves. They walk under the chuppa with zero skill as to bringing a decent parnasa to feed their families.
With today's high rents and living costs one would think that Mr Moster wouldn't be just a single voice.
The men are supposed to bring the Parnasa (according to our Torah) but the girls Get the better education. Go figure.
I deal with many Chasidisha men that can barely talk English. It's very embarrassing.
Most Yingeliet don't earn 75% of what they need to cover basics.
I want to see more of our men become accountants, attorneys, architects, expediters, And maybe even nurses and doctors.

50

 Oct 21, 2015 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

"So what commenter #22 is suggesting is that you can have no degree walk into the aguda office and be a or atleast earn a masters in accounting within about 2 yrs. Many then go on to work at PWC for a starting salary of 60k."

PWC hires from the best colleges in the world and mostly hire IVY League graduates. My brother works for them and I can assure you they have never hired anyone without a degree or who walks into the Aguda office earning a masters in 2 years. If you don't believe me, do a search on LinkedIn and you will see the truth. Who feeds you such nonsense?

Do you want the list of guys that work in both PWC and Deliot who graduated from Aguda PCS via FDU? I don't think they want me to publish their names. But I personally know a nice few. By the way, yes aguda alone is not enough. You also need some secular work expeirence. But working is some hiemisha firm for 6 months -year (some do that while still in school) should suffice.

51

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