New York – With the issue of sexual abuse and misconduct an unfortunately hot topic in the frum community today, many raise the connected issue of mesirah: whether reporting an alleged offender to the authorities constitutes “informing,” or turning a fellow Jew over to non-Jewish hands, traditionally among the gravest of offenses.
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In a December 6, 2006 lecture in Teaneck, New Jersey, Modern Orthodox leader and OU posek Rabbi Hershel Schachter laid down the law on mesirah as it pertains to reporting abuse, clarifying several misconceptions. VIN News feels Rabbi Schachter’s lecture, the key points of which are reproduced below, is all the more apropos today.
To listen to and watch the entire 42-minute lecture, click below.
* While it’s technically loshon hara for victims to vent their pain or otherwise inform a parent or professional of what happened to them when specific names are mentioned, it is permitted nonetheless because it’s for a “to’eles l’habah,” or a positive future outcome. Children should be taught to not fear loshon hora violations by informing parents or professionals about incidents, Rabbi Schachter said.
* The prohibition of mesirah was created specifically in times of the Gemara to prevent Jews from informing greedy and corrupt governments which of their brethren were well-heeled to save them from robbery. Today, however, in the case of the authorities knowing that “I know that so-and-so is a pervert or a criminal, in such a situation the Shluchan Aruch says there’s no issur of mesirah,” said Rabbi Schachter, citing from Choshen Mishpat 28:4. He added that a letter sent out a by a Satmar rabbinical court many years ago was misinformed on this very source. “If you look up the chapter and verse that they quoted, it says just the opposite. Mesirah is only if the fellow is innocent. If the fellow’s a criminal and the government wants to put him behind bars or whatever it may be, then it’s not mesirah.”
* On the issue of avaidas akum, the halachah that states that a lost object belonging to a non-Jew need not be returned—except where returning it generates a kiddush hashem, including returning “lost” unpaid taxes, in which case (at least technically) reporting a fellow Jew cheating on taxes is not mesirah.
* Removing a chillul hashem from the community by reporting a violator is not mesirah.
* However, if in the court system or prison the Jewish violator will suffer more than the law requires him to because of anti-Semitism, then it is a question of mesirah.
* Not only is mesirah not always asur, but sometimes even recommended, such as when a doctor sees that his female patient has been beaten.
* If a fellow Jew is a known public menace, since the batei dinim do not have an enforcement mechanism to stop him, he must be turned in. “We don’t have the system to deal with him—if we did, we wouldn’t be allowed to give him to the government.”
One may not decide alone—a shaalah must be asked of a rov and/or beis din in each case.
Rabbi Shachter, however, followed up the shiur with a written explanation and summary:
The prohibition of mesirah is well known among religious Jews. The severity of this issur becomes ever so clear when we read in Shulchan Aruch that a mosser is dino ke’akum with respect to writing a sefer Torah (Yoreh Deah 281:3) and with respect to shechitah (Remah ibid 2:9). Even if the mosser is otherwise an observant individual, and is meticulous in fulfilling his religious duties, because he demonstrates his rejection of the unity of all of Klal Yisroel (by his act of mesirah), he is treated as an akum (see Rambam, Hilchos Teshuva 3:11 and Nefesh Horav pg. 235).
If, however, one is guilty of a crime, and according to the law of the land deserves a prison sentence, or will be put to death, even though according to Jewish law his punishment would not be as severe, this is not mesirah (see Ritva to Bava Metsia 83b; Dvar Avraham vol. I pg. 8). One would still not be allowed to hand this individual over to the civil authorities because this is the equivalent of returning aveidas akum, which is usually not allowed. In an instance of avoiding a chilul Hashem, just like we would be obligated to return the aveidas akum, so too we would be obligated to hand over this individual (see Rama, Choshen Mishpat 388:12).
If the non-Jewish governmental authorities know that one Jew is concealing information about another Jew in order to save him from punishment, the Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 28:3) considers this a situation of chilul Hashem. Similarly, for many generations it was the practice that if a gneiva had occurred, and suspicion had fallen on the Jewish community, rather than allow that suspicion to hover over the entire community, the roshei hakehol, with the permission of the rabbonim, would inform the non-Jewish authorities who might possibly be the real ganav (Be’er Hagola, Choshen Mishpat 388:12).
Even if one is guilty of a crime and deserves a punishment according to the laws of the land, but due to anti-semetic attitudes he will probably suffer more than if he were a non-Jew; or, the (state) prison conditions are such that he will suffer at the hands of the other inmates (or at the hands of the guards) in a manner that is not proscribed by law, then turning the offender in would constitute mesirah, since his added suffering will be shelo kadin. However, mesirah is permitted in situations where one is a public menace (see Shach to Choshen Mishpat 388, 59), or if one is physically or psychologically harming another individual (for example, in instances of sexual abuse of children, students, campers etc., or spousal abuse) (see Shach to Choshen Mishpat ibid, 45).
The Jewish community does not have the ability to investigate these types of cases. Wherever there are raglayim ladavar that there seems to be a problem, the proper government agencies should be contacted to investigate.
Just as in other areas of halachah, one should consult a competent moreh horaah when faced with such a shayla. Just because one is knowledgeable in Yoreh Deah vol. I or one delivers a good pilpul shiur on sugyos in Nashim or Nezikin, it does not necessarily follow that that individual will be qualified to pasken on hilchos mesirah – lehakel or lehachmir.
Many prominent poskim and roshei yeshiva have clearly said that a suspected abuser is considered to be a rodeif and that anything done to prevent the abuser from continuing is saving a life.
I think that 1 ruv not enough for such a big sin
Since when is Rav Shechter our posek.
Did you ask him any other shailo?
a big yashar koach to rav shechter for this shiur, and to VIN for publicizing it.
unfortunately, it seems that r’ shechter himself (just one rosh yeshiva/posek) has more seichel (as well as torah) than all of our so-called yeshivishe’ gedolim and poskim. while yeshivishe’ “gedolim” have been hard at work coming up with every svoro’ in the book on why not to go to the police about abuse, just cover it up, etc., while worrying about more important things such as banning concerts, its clear that others (such as r’ shechter shlita) have their heads on straight and understand that the torah is AGAINST all forms of abuse.
it really makes me wonder after all these years – many yeshivishe’ people walk around thinking they are so superior to more modern yiddin, because (supposedly) the yeshivishe’ velt has the “gedolim.” well my friends, we are now seeing the matzav that has resulted from following our “gedolim.” and the only torah voice of reason comes from the “modern” world.
my friends, its time to wake up. what have we become???
I think that 1 ruv not enough for such a big sin
One issue is not whether an abuser is a rodeif. This has been repeated by nearly all poskim, and anyone can ask the posek of their choice and hear the same thing. The issue is whether the halacha of rodeif applies. There are false reports, and one is dealing with an equally severe and serious threat regarding the demonizing of an innocent person. That means that there needs to be an evaluatory process that can determine whether there are grounds for reporting and triggering the “system”.
The other issue is whether reporting will have a positive result. There are forces that will cause great injustice and trouble for the reporting individuals, and many have witnessed this. Often, there is great embarrassment and shame in the reporting process and its side effects, and many victims choose not to make reports. The publicity that is automatically created when a report is made can actually interfere with proper investigation. There are ways of doing this carefully, but the subject is very delicate.
While I am not qualified to judge Rav Schechter’s position, I expect that it will be challenged, though I am not sure of the motive behind any such challenge. I am particularly attracted to his statement that each case must be handled individually by someone with the expertise in issues of mesirah. Not just any Rav or Rosh Hayeshiva is qualified, despite being a great talmid chochom.
while I do have some respect for r’ shachter & I agree that at least in the current environment that we live in there is no mesirah for molestors & abusers, nevertheless it must be noted that he is dass yachid especially in the case of unpaid taxes. even in the YU community, r’ shachter’s opinion are not universally accepted. for instance, r’ shachter holds that ou-d has halachic status of chalav akum which means it’s not kosher- period.
Is this new to anyone?
#5 do you eat ou?
if yes, then he’s your posek
Rav Shachter wrote “While it’s technically loshon hara for victims to vent their pain or otherwise inform a parent or professional of what happened to them when specific names are mentioned”
What exactly does this mean?
This posting is a bit offensive, as it says that R’ Schachter is “modern orthodox leader.” Halavai that if everyone MO person listened to R’ Schachter in general, that community wouldn’t really be modern and would be much frummer.
What is most remarkable about this presentation is the format and the forum of this discussion. The opportunity for people to discuss and ask questions on these type of sensitive topics of a Gadol is unbelievable. It demonstrates the topic can be discussed publicly in a very serious manner. Thank you to VIN for publicizing this.
To anon#12 – you can say the same for any group – across the board among chareidim and chassidim there are many who struggle with geneivah, tznius, lashon hora etc. and don’t follow their charedi leaders or rebbes, either.
All of us have to step it up a few notches, whatever group we associate with.
R. Shachter can take on any fake concert ban rabbi and put them to shame. Great job R. Shachter and VIN for posting.
“* However, if in the court system or prison the Jewish violator will suffer more than the law requires him to because of anti-Semitism, then it is a question of mesirah.”
Anyone who ever came in contact with the Court System in general, and the Criminal Division in particular, can attest to the fact that the above exception will ALWAYS trigger. There is a lot of prejudice and bias when it comes to acheinu bais Yisroel (sometimes from our own brethren).
It gets even worse in the prisons, where the wardens are technically boss with full authority and almost no oversight, they don’t have to answer to anyone locally. The abuse and humiliation of inmates either by guards or other inmates go unchecked. For example, one inmate was once kicked out of the prison succah by a guard, because “there was a possibility of bears in the area”, while some twenty feet away, a group was playing ball outside.
Additionally, medical care is neglected to a degree of pikuach nefesh.
It is no question that no matter what a person may have done illegal, as long as the system is, as it currently is, there can be no justification halachically to have him incarcerated.
I wish no one should ever have to get to verify this first hand, and may we be zoche to Moshiach soon.
before all you amratzim go down a the wrongpath again-
Know that R’ Schachter is a gadol, EVEn in the eyes of several Chareidi rabbonim; here and in e. yisrael.
So, that being said all the rest of the strife rests on the who is blacker/frummer nonsense that our world seems to be hung up on. would love to see him one day giving a shiur klali in Lakewood and the Roshei yeshiva of Lakewood in the main beis medrash at YU.
the mishna said al todun es chavericho ad shetagia limkomo.
if this great rabbi would be in jail for 10 years then he can make judjements on other jews
Knowing the facts and spending ten years there are not the same thing.
Rav Shechter can run circles around any current day “Godel.”
The first instance of Mesirah is found in Shemos when Moshe slays the Mitzri and Dassan and Aviram report it to Paroah. Where does going to bais din come in to the picture? Whether or not it is Mesirah to report to authorities should only be determined Al Pi Halacha by a Bais Din and not by one rabbi. Yes, I know there are problems in the Bais Din system today but as a wise person I know says if we know there are problems in the Kashrus system, do we give up and eat treif? Of course not! There are some respected, honest Batei Din. There are even some in Lakewood and Chicago who specialize in determining how to handle abuse and molestation cases. There are instances where Mesirah is wide spread during divorce litigation which can become quite ugly and lawyers , some of them even technicaly “frum” advise their cleints to make false domestic abuse and child abuse allegations in order to gain the upper hand in the divorce and custody battle. When a Jew goes to secular court vs another Jew it should only be with a Heter Bais Din. Going to a secular court is not a casual matter. It is tantenmount to saying that we respect the secular laws more than we respect the Torah’s laws- what a Chillul Hashem! Additionally, while Rabbi Schechter is an ehrlich individual, he is a Rosh Yeshiva at YU which has a gay club and other abomoinations. Also, if you want to know how Rabbi Schechter and his cohorts handle an actual abuse case, just look up the Baruch Lanner case whch they covered up and botched for years then publicly appologized and now are on a witch hunt against others in an effort to show that they are sensitive to the issue.