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Jerusalem - Rabbi Aviner Prohibits Matchmaking Through Double Dating |
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Aviner ruled that a couple on a date should not meet with another couple, be they married or single, even if the reason for such an outing were to observe the other's behavior in a standard social environment.
"It's out of the question," he said, suggesting instead that the interested subject ask friends and teachers about the person they are dating.
The rabbi said meetings between couples was "not allowed", and added that "spending time with a girl is prohibited even if the intention is not just to have fun."
He explained that the Maimonides wrote that no man should marry a woman without seeing her first, in order to make sure the man likes her, but "nothing further with the purpose of enjoyment.
"It is true that you need to talk in order to get to know each other better and make plans, and sometimes long conversations are in order, but that's it!" Rabbi Aviner wrote.
"Matchmaking does not endorse prohibited recreation with the Torah's support."
He also claimed that the desire to observe the other person in a social environment was preposterous. "The main thing is how she functions with you. Is she destined for a public relations post?" he asked.
Rabbi Aviner added that many women may be found lacking, but there is no such thing as "an angel without flaws". She could also make progress in many areas after the marriage, he wrote, and "one may hope that with your blessed influence she will get better."
In addition, the Rabbi dismissed the double date as a reliable test. "You cannot judge a person according to one random event, you need to observe his behavior at times of crisis… would you initiate a crisis there?" he asked.
"There is another, better, solution: Find out about her characteristics through people who know her without and within, like teachers or friends, and this will constitute a much more reliable judgment than what you may witness at a double date."
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Read Comments (40) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 03, 2008 at 08:47 AM MARK Says:
HES OUT OF TOUCH
2
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:03 AM true Says:
he's so right. I was always against this whole double dating couldn't agree more
3
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:07 AM Nisht Kein Chuchem Says:
Mark, perhaps in your (atheist) circles he's considered 'out of touch'. But for Torah observing Jews he's so on the button!!
4
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:07 AM mewhoze Says:
you cant go totally by what someone else says. you ahve to make your own judgement if you hope to live with someone forever.
5
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:20 AM Anonymous Says:
What he says is not wrong - but he seems to be scratching his left ear with his right hand. Awkward.
When did the term "dating" come into the culture of shomrei torah? How about "meeting"? The term may help the perspective.
P.S. Take note: Mark is one of the "touchy feely" crowd.
6
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:16 AM Pushiter Yid Says:
Nisht kein chuchum, I can't agree more with you.
7
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:33 AM Anonymous Says:
Clearly not MY Rav....I love the so called experts that got married at 18 to the first girl they were set up with then go on to be "experts" on dating
8
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:
I can't agree more. double dating is dangerous, even in instances where both couples are married. many problems will be avoided if there are no "couple friends"
9
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:52 AM Anonymous Says:
finaly a daas torah
10
Nov 03, 2008 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:
With so many singles out there today I don't think this avenue should be ruled out. Sometimes it's better to meet as group rather than have that awkward first date.
11
Nov 03, 2008 at 10:47 AM Anonymous Says:
Neither his 'psak' or the opinions offered above in opposition are right for every person and every situation. One must wonder if we were not better off 100 years ago when every psak halachah of every rov for the people of his shtetl in Lita wasn't circulated to every city in Galitzia.
The number of rabbonim who have deep enough learning and a wide enough mind to pasken for entire populations is limited to at best a handful in every generation and one of the surest signs that one is dealing with such a person is the paucity of instances in which he renders such piskai halachah.
12
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:05 AM Anonymous Says:
Helps keep the m'saderei gittin employed.
13
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:20 AM MARK Says:
“ Mark, perhaps in your (atheist) circles he's considered 'out of touch'. But for Torah observing Jews he's so on the button!! ”
DAAS TORA DOSENT EXSIST ANYMORE..........SADLY
14
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:39 AM Anonymous Says:
What is double dating, please?
15
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:36 AM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ DAAS TORA DOSENT EXSIST ANYMORE..........SADLY ”
Mark, please explain.
16
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:26 AM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ Clearly not MY Rav....I love the so called experts that got married at 18 to the first girl they were set up with then go on to be "experts" on dating ”
I have news for you: Those that were married at age 18 and they were pure then, and have been holy ever since; do become the experts on this, exactly because they can look at it objectively and from clean lenses. The Gemora brings an Amora who said that the reason I am better then my colleagues is because I got married at 16, had I gotten married at 14, I would have been even greater. I can say the same thing, that if I had gotten married at 18 instead of nineteen then I would have been better off – food for thought.
17
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:46 AM Anonymous Says:
No??? Didn't you see the thread about the Charaidim taking over the country and running it al pi da'as torah???
18
Nov 03, 2008 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I have news for you: Those that were married at age 18 and they were pure then, and have been holy ever since; do become the experts on this, exactly because they can look at it objectively and from clean lenses. The Gemora brings an Amora who said that the reason I am better then my colleagues is because I got married at 16, had I gotten married at 14, I would have been even greater. I can say the same thing, that if I had gotten married at 18 instead of nineteen then I would have been better off – food for thought. ”
Some people don't have a choice and can not get married at 18. That being said every situation is different and no one knows where their Bashert is coming from. That double date might just be bringing them together! Until the Rabbi will give his time and sit with every single and make a Shidduch he should keep his opinions to himself. If he is willing to become a Shadchan for all I have plenty of people I will send over to him.
19
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:53 AM Anonymous Says:
What is double dating, please?
20
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:49 AM MARK Says:
“ Mark, please explain. ”
REGARDLESS OF WHOS RIGHT,THE SLOPPINESS OF THE LIPA BAN,AGUDAS REJECTION OF MANDTORY FINGERPRINTING OF REBBES,KOLKO PINTER IF YOU TOOK A SURVEY N THE BP FLATBUSH AREA THEY HAVE ONLY NO REGARD FOR DAAS TORA,,,,,,
21
Nov 03, 2008 at 12:11 PM NAIVE Says:
Double dating is taking out 2 women at the same time. It can be rather costly, to say the least
22
Nov 03, 2008 at 12:40 PM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ REGARDLESS OF WHOS RIGHT,THE SLOPPINESS OF THE LIPA BAN,AGUDAS REJECTION OF MANDTORY FINGERPRINTING OF REBBES,KOLKO PINTER IF YOU TOOK A SURVEY N THE BP FLATBUSH AREA THEY HAVE ONLY NO REGARD FOR DAAS TORA,,,,,, ”
Mark, I’m sorry but I disagree. In my circles “da’as Torah” still exists. The more important question is, who has da’as Torah? Reb Moshe once said that whatever he says is da’as Torah because he has never read a newspaper or any book of apikorses. Where do we find a Reb Moshe today? But Remember “netzach Yisroel loi yeshaker”, we still have the same Bashefer today as then, and “Tzadikim, shuslon bechol dor vodor”. There are Boruch Hashem, tzadikim everywhere, at least 36 as promised; you just need (or want) to find them. Regarding your laundry list; you must remember that we live in a plural society where there is really no Rov that has authority over you, and that explains the lack of, or the wrong approach of some, to the ills of the day. If you’ll choose one Rov as your guide and actually ask him to explain to you his stand on certain issues, you would go away smarter and look at the situation a little, if not a lot different.
23
Nov 03, 2008 at 01:36 PM mewhoze Says:
get to know each other a little before marraige. otherwise you get to get a "GET"
24
Nov 03, 2008 at 01:29 PM MARK Says:
“ Mark, I’m sorry but I disagree. In my circles “da’as Torah” still exists. The more important question is, who has da’as Torah? Reb Moshe once said that whatever he says is da’as Torah because he has never read a newspaper or any book of apikorses. Where do we find a Reb Moshe today? But Remember “netzach Yisroel loi yeshaker”, we still have the same Bashefer today as then, and “Tzadikim, shuslon bechol dor vodor”. There are Boruch Hashem, tzadikim everywhere, at least 36 as promised; you just need (or want) to find them. Regarding your laundry list; you must remember that we live in a plural society where there is really no Rov that has authority over you, and that explains the lack of, or the wrong approach of some, to the ills of the day. If you’ll choose one Rov as your guide and actually ask him to explain to you his stand on certain issues, you would go away smarter and look at the situation a little, if not a lot different. ”
I AGREE WITH YOU 100% WE CHOOSE OUR RABBONIM BUT IM SURE THAT SCHECTER.PERLOW AND ALL SELF SEVING REBBES DO NOT MAKE THE LIST
25
Nov 03, 2008 at 02:09 PM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ get to know each other a little before marraige. otherwise you get to get a "GET" ”
It's the other way around. The statistic says, that the more you get to know each other before marriage, the more chance there is, that there will be a Get.
26
Nov 03, 2008 at 02:25 PM Howard Says:
“ It's the other way around. The statistic says, that the more you get to know each other before marriage, the more chance there is, that there will be a Get. ”
Oh really? What statistic is that? The one you just made up out of your head? If there is such a statistic, from a reliable source, publish it here. I know you can not because there is no such "statistic".
27
Nov 03, 2008 at 02:27 PM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ I AGREE WITH YOU 100% WE CHOOSE OUR RABBONIM BUT IM SURE THAT SCHECTER.PERLOW AND ALL SELF SEVING REBBES DO NOT MAKE THE LIST ”
I apologize for the sarcasm and tone; I think that we are on the same wavelength. Rabbi Perlow is president of the Agudah in America; this alone might or might not be da'as Torah. There needs to be a Moetzes Gedolai HaTorah in America, similar to the one in Eretz Yisroel to sit and make decisions. So he is another Godol sitting in a powerful chair, not what the Agudah was intended for. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Rabbi Perlow per se; I do have against the Agudah establishment in America, which has become just another organization instead of being THE organization to be me'ached all ehrlicha Yiden. I do have some respect for Rabbi Schechter, because I find him as a serious and sincere man. His rulings are another matter. I don't like his position on women's prayer minyans (anyone remember that?), and regarding his position on mesirah, I like the one which before doing so, you better make sure that you have a heter of a Rov who with great yishuv ha'daas gave the heter.
28
Nov 03, 2008 at 02:34 PM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ Oh really? What statistic is that? The one you just made up out of your head? If there is such a statistic, from a reliable source, publish it here. I know you can not because there is no such "statistic". ”
It is a fact. Talk to any marriage counselor or Rov involved in Sholom Bayis and they will tell you this. I'm sorry to shake a very convenient and comfortable perception.
29
Nov 03, 2008 at 03:06 PM Anonymous Says:
First of all, double dating is NOT taking out two women at once. It is two couples going out together for fun. Or is this not allowed in these circles? How sad! Maybe getting to know each other a little better beforehand can eliminate unforeseen problems in the future.
30
Nov 03, 2008 at 03:32 PM Anonymous Says:
What we need is one rabbi to tell us what to do. It is so confusing with all these opinions. Who do you follow? All this confusion makes people go off the derech.
31
Nov 03, 2008 at 04:04 PM Anonymous Says:
What about married couples going out together (and getting a lil too freindy) that is a much bigger issue that should be addressed
32
Nov 03, 2008 at 04:32 PM Howard Says:
“ It is a fact. Talk to any marriage counselor or Rov involved in Sholom Bayis and they will tell you this. I'm sorry to shake a very convenient and comfortable perception. ”
Sorry TP, but that is not a "statistic" or a proof of any sort. It is just a story you heard from someone. You should retract your claim of a "statistic" because, as I stated before, there is no such statistic. This is how a bubba meisa turns into a statistic.
33
Nov 03, 2008 at 05:30 PM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ What about married couples going out together (and getting a lil too freindy) that is a much bigger issue that should be addressed ”
No need to address the obvious. Everyone knows that they shouldn't get too friendly with their friends wife. Howard, do your own study, and you will see that I'm correct.
34
Nov 03, 2008 at 07:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Sorry TP, but that is not a "statistic" or a proof of any sort. It is just a story you heard from someone. You should retract your claim of a "statistic" because, as I stated before, there is no such statistic. This is how a bubba meisa turns into a statistic. ”
His mind is made up. Pease stop trying to confuse him with the facts.
35
Nov 03, 2008 at 07:53 PM M. Richter Says:
Whatever the popular oppinion here in the U.S. Is, these guys there in Eretz Yisroel better listen or risk being takken care of by the tzenious squad...
36
Nov 03, 2008 at 07:41 PM Tzofnas Paneiach Says:
“ His mind is made up. Pease stop trying to confuse him with the facts. ”
That's right it's a fact, stop trying to confuse his mind. On a serious note, I don't understand or rather I do understand why this fact bothers many.
37
Nov 03, 2008 at 09:24 PM Anonymous Says:
It'd be good to learn some secular social skills, which our community sorely lacks.
38
Nov 03, 2008 at 11:34 PM Anonymous Says:
why is it that a great talmud chuchom is unable to give some better sources forbidding double dating. All these things end up in the realm of Hashkafa and are therefore subject to everybodies opinion. And saying that he is das torah is ridiculus there are so many disagrement s amont those with Das torah that to say we must follow any one person because he has das torah is just foolish. (I am not taling about someone who has a rebbe and follows them you can make an argument for that) look the Machlokes about learning secular subject in schools among the gedolim of europe. It is famous that there was a disagreement between the Or Samach and the Chafetz Chaim about whether to include some secular subjects.
39
Nov 04, 2008 at 10:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ That's right it's a fact, stop trying to confuse his mind. On a serious note, I don't understand or rather I do understand why this fact bothers many. ”
What part of the word "statisics" don't/won't/can't you understand?
40
Nov 04, 2008 at 03:54 PM bronxyid Says:
"Reb Moshe once said that whatever he says is da’as Torah because he has never read a newspaper or any book of apikorses."
What is your source for this quote? Rav Moshe's greatness did not come from not ever reading a newspaper (assuming it's true); his greatness was a result of his learning, intellect, modesty, etc. I can't imagine that reading a newspaper would have in any way diminished the words of R' Moshe.