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Washington, DC - Hospital Ran to Court Asking to End Life Support for Borough Park Chasidic Boy |
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Last updated on: Nov 06, 2008 at 01:28 PM
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Motl Brody on far left standing with blond hair
The dispute involves Motl Brody of Brooklyn, who was diagnosed with a severe form of brain cancer.
The boy has been under the care of the Northwest Washington hospital for about six months. His tumor grew progressively worse, and doctors there pronounced him dead Tuesday night after tests showed no signs of brain activity.
His parents, Eluzer and Miriam Brody, [who reside in Borough Park] are trying to prevent the hospital from taking him off life support because they say their faith does not define death as cessation of brain function alone.
The parents, Orthodox Jews, have retained a lawyer who says that the boy’s circulatory and respiratory systems are functioning, although with mechanical and other assistance.
“Under Jewish law and their faith, there is no such thing as brain death,” said the parents’ attorney, Jeffrey Zuckerman. “Their religious beliefs are entitled to respect.”
The hospital has taken the dispute to D.C. Superior Court.
In filings, the hospital extended its sympathy to the family but said the boy should no longer be on its equipment, saying that “scarce resources are being used for the preservation of a deceased body.”
Under D.C. law, doctors can declare patients dead if there is no brain activity.
The hospital wants a court order, over the parents’ objections, that affirms its plan to disconnect the boy from a ventilator and to discontinue intravenous medications that keep his heart beating.
But Zuckerman says that doing so would infringe upon religious freedom.
The case is awaiting a ruling from Judge William Jackson.
“This child has ceased to exist by every medical definition,” Sophia Smith, one of the boy’s physicians, wrote in court papers, adding that she and her staff members are “distraught at what is providing futile care to the earthly remains of a former life.”
“There is no activity in any portion of his brain, including the brain stem,” she wrote. “Ethically, there is no appropriate treatment except removal of the ventilator and of the drugs.”
A spokeswoman for the hospital, Emily Dammeyer, declined to comment on the case, citing patient privacy rules.
In court papers, the hospital’s lawyers wrote that doctors have no choice but to stop life support or risk fines and other sanctions. They added that the hospital tried to find other facilities to take the boy but that none would admit him because he is brain-dead.
“Continuing any support to this child eliminates any dignity this child has left,” wrote Kenneth H. Rosenau, an attorney for Children’s. “There is no religious principle at issue in this case, but a clash on the definition of death.”
Motl, a seventh-grader, is the third of seven siblings. His uncle, Yitzchak Halberstam, said the boy began feeling listless about six months ago. He was eventually diagnosed with an aggressive tumor and quickly had surgery. He never regained consciousness, Halberstam said.
Halberstam said Motl was “a special kid.”
“When you looked at him,” he said, “you just wanted to walk over and hug him.”
Zuckerman, the family’s lawyer, said he is challenging the hospital’s plans on grounds that the family’s religious beliefs must be respected under federal law.
Legal experts said that courts usually defer to the judgment of doctors in such cases.
“The case law is clear: Once you are dead, you are dead,” said George Annas, a law professor at Boston University who specializes in health law and bioethics.
Annas added that New York and New Jersey have provisions in their laws or regulations that make exceptions in similar instances for Orthodox Jews.
An official spokesman from the Family told VIN news while the family is utmost appreciative from the the support coming from the community, the best that people can help is, to email directly the hospital to mshaw@cnmc.org
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Read Comments (112) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:36 AM lavdafka Says:
If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! ....
2
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:42 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
Hashem can always make a ness happen dont be so quick to say such things May the parents have an easy time fighting the case and may he have a full recovery.
PS What is his name that we can daven for him
3
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:43 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
from where do you know???
dont you know hashem could do anything???? miracles happen..
does anybody know the boys name for tehilim??
4
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:48 AM estee lieberman Says:
How callous can you be? It is not in our hands, only God can make decisions like that. Let us all pray for the boy and his family. May God have mercy.
5
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:50 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
thats the halacha....
6
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:52 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:
And we thought this kind of cold behavior only happens in other countries. Welcome to America of Change. There will be less religious tolerance in the years to come.
7
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:51 AM yoelg Says:
its rtzech mamss. lets hope thet the hospitel will losse the court
8
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:51 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
To the first post when your child or grandchild is in a hospital with braincancer then you can open your stupid mouth. You know the stupidity of some people on this site is just mind boggling! Are you crazy? Did you thibk even for one second about your comment before you pressed send?
9
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:52 AM surch Says:
Lavdaka
Are you a Yid? Dont you know what constituttes murder?
10
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:59 AM Anonymous Says:
Mordechai Dov ben Miriam Shaindel, I believe.
11
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:58 AM M. Richter Says:
Bottom line this is the halache regardless of the condition. And the hospital has only one thing in mind, Money!!!!
12
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:22 AM Anonymous Says:
THE ONE THAT PULLS THE PLUG IS A MURDERER. HE SHOULD DIE FOR EVEN THINKING OF STOPPING SOMEONE ELSE FROM LIVING!!!!!
13
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:11 AM Anonymous Says:
The family should know that we are all keeping them in our tefilos. May Hashem send them a yeshua bekarov and may they see only nachas and simchos from their children.
14
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:30 AM Anonymous Says:
“ To the first post when your child or grandchild is in a hospital with braincancer then you can open your stupid mouth. You know the stupidity of some people on this site is just mind boggling! Are you crazy? Did you thibk even for one second about your comment before you pressed send? ”
Slow down no need to be so rude state your opinion but no need to answer as you did!
I was not the one that wrote that blog/opinion.
15
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:58 AM TWO SUGGESTIONS Says:
This is, as we all know, a situation becoming more and more common. The problem is there on multiple levels. We know it is absolutely ossur to take someone off life support. However, more and more states are passing laws stating that once the doctors declare death, the hospitals are no longer to required to provide care at the public's expense.
If the patient is properly insured, and/or the family can pay, most will albeit reluctantly, continue treatment out of respect for our religious beliefs.
The problem is that most insurance plans then claim that they do not insure dead people, and that the patient's policy is terminated upon the declaration of death.
This results in a family's loosing all they own to attempt to keep their loved one breathing. Eventually the family is broke, and can no longer fight.
One suggestion is a special new FRUM HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY which would be underwritten for sale to frum Yidden and others of similar beliefs. This policy would not cease until respiration could no longer be maintained, or until the family's rabbi or other religious leader agreed that the person is indeed dead.
These policies would certainly cost more, do to the potential of very high costs in these cases, but with all Yidden purchasing a policy like this, it would spread the risk, and keep the costs from getting as high as they would otherwise.
We need someone, a Frum Rabbi who is in the insurance business to contact a reliable insurer and discuss this.
My second suggestion is a fund which all frum Yidden contribute to, to pay the hospital bill in these cases, as well as provide legal representation by attorneys experienced in this matter.
If the hospitals know that we come with deep pockets, both to pay the bills, and to fight them with resources equal to, or better than theirs, they will back off.
The bottom line is money. If we can pay for it, we will get it.
16
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:52 AM Allan Says:
Very sad situation for the family and of course for the boy who is ill. When my late wife was dying the hospital would not declare her brain dead because the other life support measures gave the machines false readings. The hospital only cared about covering themselves and their doctors legally. There was no doubt that she was dead but no one there would state it officially. I turned to others far more observant than myself for advise and used the hospital's house Rabbi for guidance.
His position was that we have an obligation to preserve life...but also one not to prolong death. His guidance and with the advise of others finally allowed me and with my childrens approval to make the decision to shut down the machines that were giving false readings and false hope. A very tough thing to do...I feel for this family and it also hurts so much because of his young age. G-D bless them all!
17
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:47 AM Anonymous Says:
Motel was a very caring sensitive boy who would go out of his way to make sure other children (and adults) would never feel hurt, I knew him well and was always amazed on the fine behavior of such a young boy. So to all those who support the hospital I would ask we go out of our way to help this boy just as he would go out of his way to help others. He was the cutest child I ever met and his presents in this world even under these circumstances is a zechus for us.
18
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:44 AM Anonymous Says:
R"L! May HKB"H Grant this precious yingel acomplete refuah shelaima! Dr's have reshus to heal ONLY! They have no right to be moishel on chaim and maves!!
19
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:38 AM Yoily Voily Says:
What a chutzpa!
-Yoily Voily
20
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:07 AM Anon Says:
“ Hashem can always make a ness happen dont be so quick to say such things May the parents have an easy time fighting the case and may he have a full recovery.
PS What is his name that we can daven for him ”
Mordechai Dov ben Miriam Sheindel
21
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:04 AM Anonymous Says:
“ To the first post when your child or grandchild is in a hospital with braincancer then you can open your stupid mouth. You know the stupidity of some people on this site is just mind boggling! Are you crazy? Did you thibk even for one second about your comment before you pressed send? ”
Slow down no need to be so rude state your opinion but no need to answer as you did!
I was not the one that wrote that blog/opinion.
22
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:20 AM Anonymous Says:
i dont understand, it said on vosisnies thst abraham lesser has bought victoria hospital maybe trasfr the kid to this hospital. as long as it takes thats it.
23
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
you must be a arch liberal and non believer. shame on you and your group
24
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:
I'm amazed how many poskim we have reading and commenting on VIN. That is not meant to say that VIN is not worth reading by all, of course.
Even most rabbonim don't decide these shilos.
25
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:
people should know;the case is not whats the point kepping him alive he will never wake up and heshem will make a neis.in truth heshem does not make such nisim becasue you wond find in history a kid in such a case that woke up. but we as jewish people are rquired to do what the tohra says. by jewish law if a person is breathing it is user to pull a plug,maybe prvent medication everthig you have to ask a ruv that understands these halachos,and if you dont do that you could be called by jewish law a murderer.
26
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:14 AM momma Says:
If Hshm can make a ness and split the sea, He can perform a ness here too. What about those that wake up after many years from a coma? Be positive.
27
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:39 AM AMG Says:
“ thats the halacha.... ”
who told you that it is permisable to pull the plug on someone who is attached to a lifesupport system who is still breathing all of the poskim whom we consult for all other questions say in such action is forbidden and they decide what the halachah is R.aurbach zal who was personaly close to rabbi kook zal held like that
28
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:36 AM Expatriate Owl Says:
The issue is not the quality of Motl's life. The issue is not whether HaShem can or will make a nes and cure Motl (maybe He will, or maybe He won't). The issue goes beyond money!
What is at stake here is that the insurance carriers, acting through their puppets, the physicians, and facilitated by the courts, are becoming empowered to decide who will live and who will die!
There are soldiers who have forsaken the comforts and conveniences of the home front, and who are risking (and, in some cases, forfeiting) their lives, in order to protect us all. Motl and his parents are on the front lines of no less a war.
29
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:35 AM Anonymous Says:
“ people should know;the case is not whats the point kepping him alive he will never wake up and heshem will make a neis.in truth heshem does not make such nisim becasue you wond find in history a kid in such a case that woke up. but we as jewish people are rquired to do what the tohra says. by jewish law if a person is breathing it is user to pull a plug,maybe prvent medication everthig you have to ask a ruv that understands these halachos,and if you dont do that you could be called by jewish law a murderer. ”
Excellent point. The halachah is the halachah. IF the halachah states that he must remain on life support we must do everything in our power to make it happen. The results are not important.
30
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:25 AM Charlie Hall Says:
Whether brain death is the halahchic criterion for death is a machloket poskim and we should not make statements that imply that one position is the accepted one. The State of Israel recently adopted brain death as its legal definition of death with the support of much of the religious community.
31
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:
Interesting the liberals are officialy pro choice when it comes to abortion & they give so called right of privacy but when it comes to something like this why should not the parents have the right to privacy & no hospital or govt. Tell them what to do? The only conclusion u can come to is that they don't care all they care about is to promote death. That's sick
32
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:
“ The issue is not the quality of Motl's life. The issue is not whether HaShem can or will make a nes and cure Motl (maybe He will, or maybe He won't). The issue goes beyond money!
What is at stake here is that the insurance carriers, acting through their puppets, the physicians, and facilitated by the courts, are becoming empowered to decide who will live and who will die!
There are soldiers who have forsaken the comforts and conveniences of the home front, and who are risking (and, in some cases, forfeiting) their lives, in order to protect us all. Motl and his parents are on the front lines of no less a war. ”
The issue is not whether there will be a nais and he will recover (halavai!).
The issue is what is the halachah.
33
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:44 AM Moshe Says:
The way i see it, the question is when does life end, because a live person everyone will agree should never be killed, even if he is brain dead. The only argument is that a brain dead person should be considered lifeless.
However, let me ask you, who are humans to decide that a brain dead person is not alive, and even Doctors are only human.
Remember Mengele? He decided that crippled Jews are not really live human beings...
We must look at when G-D thinks a life ends.
34
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If Hshm can make a ness and split the sea, He can perform a ness here too. What about those that wake up after many years from a coma? Be positive. ”
im no doctor but in the cases of a coma there was brain activity. hope this child recovers soon.
35
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:58 AM tehillem Says:
everyone stop with your selfish cooments and say tehillem for this precious neshomo its enough that he suffered so much till now hashem yerachem please all say tehilem
Mordechai Dov Ben Miriam Sheindel
מרדכי דוב בן מרים שיינדל
36
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:58 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Slow down no need to be so rude state your opinion but no need to answer as you did!
I was not the one that wrote that blog/opinion. ”
This comment is not rude. In response to a Jew-hating Jew, this is too mild.
37
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:57 AM Big Masmid Says:
“ Whether brain death is the halahchic criterion for death is a machloket poskim and we should not make statements that imply that one position is the accepted one. The State of Israel recently adopted brain death as its legal definition of death with the support of much of the religious community.
”
Reb. Eliyashev amoung the rest of the big ones ( Badatz etc.) said it's 100% PROHIBITED to pull the plug. you are right one or two argued but the majority said it's Prohibited. Any way who would want to take a chance in killing a person.
38
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:54 AM Big Masmid Says:
“ I'm amazed how many poskim we have reading and commenting on VIN. That is not meant to say that VIN is not worth reading by all, of course.
Even most rabbonim don't decide these shilos. ”
if RaBonim dont decide so VIN readers have to get involved after all VIN is the best News station for our Olam, it's like a big happy family.
39
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
a jew should never give up
40
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:51 AM Anonymous Says:
If G-d forbid this happened to someone I loved Chas v shalom - I would not be thingink an iota about the money. I would think onluy about my loved one. I would do anything or fight any battle on his/her behalf. I would do so until my dying day. As a mother i can only think of the heartache of the parents. The gut wrenching agony of seeing their precious yingele hooked up to these awful machines. I think we have to place our faith in Hashem in these times and remember that for believers there are no questions and for non-believers there are no answers. I am no doctor but it seems that the circumstances are dire and while there are miracles this case is a stretch. There is a girl I know who was taken off the life supprt and remains a vegetable. it seems to give her fmily comfort to be able to have her at home so they can care for her but again, the prognosis is not good. Hashem gave doctors the ability to prolong life via machines so he must have inteneded us to use it.
41
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:49 AM Masmid Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
why dont you wake up? the Torah does NOT allow to pull the plug, there you go.
42
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:41 AM dayan Says:
“ Hashem can always make a ness happen dont be so quick to say such things May the parents have an easy time fighting the case and may he have a full recovery.
PS What is his name that we can daven for him ”
Al pi halacha, Once a human is declared brain dead one may not pray for a miracle to bring him back coz you are going against te va and Hashems' will. We may only pray that things should be best for sick human. However a brain dead person is not considered dead. We may also not pray that brain dead die. Hashem should be merachem al habriyos, and we should only hear besuros tovos.
43
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:13 AM SO SAD Says:
GIVE THE KIDS NESHAMA A REST. IF HE IS BRAIN DEAD AND HE IS NOT UP AND AWAKE. THEN HE IS DEAD. MEANWHILE HIS NESHAMA IS FLOATING AROUND TILL HE IS LAID TO REST 6 FEET UNDER.
44
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:19 AM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
Jews never give up hope
45
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:
What ever is the right thing to do should not be the hospitals decision or us bloggers only the father and mother should decide with the ruling of there poskim
46
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Jews never give up hope ”
The halachah has nothing to do with giving up hope or believing in nissim and mofsim.
Halachah is decided based on shas and poskim, not on our hopes and emotions.
47
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Al pi halacha, Once a human is declared brain dead one may not pray for a miracle to bring him back coz you are going against te va and Hashems' will. We may only pray that things should be best for sick human. However a brain dead person is not considered dead. We may also not pray that brain dead die. Hashem should be merachem al habriyos, and we should only hear besuros tovos. ”
could you please explain where one finds this Halocha in Shilcun Aruch
48
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:54 AM goilem Says:
does anyone remember terry shiavo? when that happened i was verry sad. i said it then, and will repeat it now:
it begins with letting everybody kill unborn babys, next step: people who are brain dead or just plain too ill, step 3: people who are born retarded or as invalids (we gotta have a REINA RASSE) step 4: all the jews are parasites..........
hashem yishmereinu. we should say tehillim not only for the child but also for klal yisroel.
49
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:
According to the article it seems, the boy is being kept alive artificially. The most basic functions which control breathing, is the brain stem and the doctors have said that this is also non- functional . From what I know, I think that if breathing is not controlled by the brain stem anymore, al pi halocho, this is considered prolonging death. Correct me if I'm wrong...
50
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:06 PM Anonymous Says:
“ could you please explain where one finds this Halocha in Shilcun Aruch ”
ain mispallilim al ha'auvar.
51
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:28 PM your sutpid says Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
what is wrong with you check your back ground if your a yid.
52
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The halachah has nothing to do with giving up hope or believing in nissim and mofsim.
Halachah is decided based on shas and poskim, not on our hopes and emotions. ”
אפילו חרב חדה מונחת על צוארו אל תתייאש מן הרחמים...
53
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ you must be a arch liberal and non believer. shame on you and your group ”
Here's what I don't understand. He has no brain activity and cannot breathe or pump blood on his own. How is that considered life? Just because a machine is moving blood and taking in oxygen doesn't mean you aren't dead. It's equally insensitive to hurl accustations and name calling because others disagree with you. Hospital care IS expensive ,especially when it's being provided to a person who has unfortunately died. Their insurance company will not pay and it will bankrupt the parents.
54
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:46 PM Anonymous Says:
For some odd reason, no one read or recited the line in the article which answers all your questions. "The boy’s circulatory and respiratory systems are functioning, although with mechanical and other assistance." That is the bottom line. Even a person with no brain activity is considered alive under Jewish law as long as the circulatory and respiratory systems are functioning, even with mechanical and other assistance.
55
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:43 PM Anonymous Says:
“ ain mispallilim al ha'auvar. ”
Be Mispalel that doctors didn't see good! How meny times that Doctors gave up and than it turned out that they made a mistake
56
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The way i see it, the question is when does life end, because a live person everyone will agree should never be killed, even if he is brain dead. The only argument is that a brain dead person should be considered lifeless.
However, let me ask you, who are humans to decide that a brain dead person is not alive, and even Doctors are only human.
Remember Mengele? He decided that crippled Jews are not really live human beings...
We must look at when G-D thinks a life ends.
”
by putting him on the machines in the first place humans did decide. By your way of thinking, he never should heve put on life support at all,and then Hashems decision would have been death.
57
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:50 PM Anonymous Says:
Ppl, I am cousin to the family and asking you to refane from posting insensive comments, Luzer & Miriam went thru enough grief over the last few months, please show some consideration
58
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:38 PM dayan Says:
“ ain mispallilim al ha'auvar. ”
That's it. we may not pray to change what HKB''H has ordained should happen and has fulfilled. we may only pray that HKB''H tear the bad will of the future. otherwise,as i understand it's as though we disagree with HKB''H, C''V.
59
Nov 06, 2008 at 12:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ does anyone remember terry shiavo? when that happened i was verry sad. i said it then, and will repeat it now:
it begins with letting everybody kill unborn babys, next step: people who are brain dead or just plain too ill, step 3: people who are born retarded or as invalids (we gotta have a REINA RASSE) step 4: all the jews are parasites..........
hashem yishmereinu. we should say tehillim not only for the child but also for klal yisroel. ”
Excellent said.life has no value by the libs only if u murderd innocent ppl like terrorist or serial killer but normal human beings life no value what so ever but try slaughtering a cow & they will protest.
60
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:03 PM Jay Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
the point is this: SIMPLE..
Hashem will take him when his time is up, it shall never be a human creation who desides when that time is but the creator himself...
isnt that what we say? "hashem natan v'hashem lakach, yehee shem hasem me'vo'roch"..
do you get it now? you moran!
61
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:01 PM Anonymous Says:
You are confusing two issues.
One is a chiyuv halaiv, to never lose hope. The other is a halachic issue.
The two have nothing to do with each other, except that if as a matter of halachah the person is already dead the chiyuv halaiv of retaining hope is no longer operative.
62
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:
One other facet of this issue I have never seen mentioned:
If the person is dead al pi halachah there is a chiyuv to bury the remains immediatly.
63
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:09 PM Anonymous Says:
Stop making murderers out of the doctors.
There is another side to this issue, which is that there are limited resources and IF the person is dead using limited medical resources to maintain circulation and resperation in a corpse at the expense of using it on a living person is also a ethical and moral dilema.
Don't judge either side so quickly and daven none of us should ever have to tackle these issues.
64
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:20 PM Hospital Hypocrites Says:
The Hospital is making fun of themselves and contradicting themselves.
The Law is that all rules of "Patient Privacy" no longer exist after "Death".
If the Hospital really believes he is already dead, then they cant contradict themselves and say they can't comment because of "Patient Privacy Rules....."
--------------
A spokeswoman for the hospital, Emily Dammeyer, declined to comment on the case, citing patient privacy rules.
65
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:20 PM Jay Says:
“ Here's what I don't understand. He has no brain activity and cannot breathe or pump blood on his own. How is that considered life? Just because a machine is moving blood and taking in oxygen doesn't mean you aren't dead. It's equally insensitive to hurl accustations and name calling because others disagree with you. Hospital care IS expensive ,especially when it's being provided to a person who has unfortunately died. Their insurance company will not pay and it will bankrupt the parents. ”
just moving blood?? let me give you an education… you dumb bell..
A ventilator will only help a beating heart to beat like a walker will help an old walking man to walk!.. can or will the old man fall without the walker? YES, can or will a human heart stop beating without the ventilator? YES.. once the heart stops and their will be no polls, only then it will pump blood, and at that point only, the person is lifeless! and isn’t allowed to stay on there even for a second..
for now this poor kid is alive and his heart is beating, it needs some help like that old man or young toddler that has walker to help walk.. is it painful to the child and parents or anybody? Absolutely! can we do something about it? other then pray, Absolutely not!
You must be one of those people who believe in abortion rights and late term abortion rights too! Don’t you? Because the brain is not functioning yet in only developing! You stupid dope!
66
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:
I know of a child who was on life support and the hospital threatened to take the child off. The child was transferred to a children's hospital in Westchester-maybe he can be transferred?
67
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:23 PM Moshiach at any second now Says:
For all those who say "What's the Point".
All Jews say Ani Maamin, that we await Moshiach every single day.
If he survives one day longer, he can be cured since in the days of Moshiach everyone will be cured.
So every second matters because perhaps one second later Moshiach will already be hear and cure him.
68
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:34 PM Anonymous Says:
The very popular concept of brain death can lead to a defeatist attitude when confronted by a patient with severe brain stem dysfunction. This problem is compounded by the constant controversy surrounding the establishing of criteria to determine brain death. Many young doctors tend to accept the precondition of irreversibility as being any condition that is not explicitly listed in the examples of potentially reversible conditions. In children, however, with compressive brain stem dysfunction, decompressive surgery can lead to a reversal of the dysfunction. In the last three years, we have had the opportunity to observe 5 children who were deeply comatose and apnoeic. All were suffering from compression of the brain stem and experienced dramatic return of brain stem function following emergency decompression. The implications of these findings on the therapeutic attitude towards compressive brain stem lesions in children are exposed. In children with severe brain stem dysfunction, and no evidence of brain stem destruction, decompressive surgery should be undertaken before a diagnosis of brain death is considered. from REVERSIBILITY OF SEVERE BRAIN-STEM DYSFUNCTION IN CHILDREN
AMMAR, A and AWADA, A and ALLUWAMI, I (1993) REVERSIBILITY OF SEVERE BRAIN-STEM DYSFUNCTION IN CHILDREN. ACTA NEUROCHIRURGICA , 124
69
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:
Until the late 1960's, brain death was not a criteria for death in the United States either. It was only after heart transplants were successful did this definition of death take hold (organs could be harvested from brain "dead" patients.)
70
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
לפי דעת הגדולים בארץ הקודש: כל זמן שהלב פועם האדם נקרא "חי", אם אין אתה בקי בהלכה, אזי "שתוק" זהו
71
Nov 06, 2008 at 01:49 PM Anonymous Says:
HEY EVERYONE, SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THE FAMILY AND STOP THIS
72
Nov 06, 2008 at 02:13 PM Anonymous Says:
Can everyone here please send an email to the hospital? Let them see that they have a PR nightmare on their hands.
73
Nov 06, 2008 at 03:21 PM Anonymous Says:
Its but when it boils down to it, the family is going to have two options. 1) Buy the equipment needed to keep the boy alive, and bring him home.
2) Send him to a long care facility.
Both options will be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars!!
74
Nov 06, 2008 at 03:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Can everyone here please send an email to the hospital? Let them see that they have a PR nightmare on their hands. ”
An email saying what exactly?
75
Nov 06, 2008 at 03:17 PM Anonymous Says:
Absolutely correct #72- all of you who can make time to sit and read VIN, PLEASE take a few extra moments to send an email to the hospital NOW! Besides Tehillim it is all we can do to help this child and his family. (And please keep it simple and try ro avoid the outrageous errors I see all the time in VIN Comments).
76
Nov 06, 2008 at 02:59 PM Joseph Says:
There was a very interesting story I read in Visions of Greatness (I forgot which volume, I'm not home now to check it up) related to this. I'm surprised no one mentioned it. It goes something like this:
This Orthodox man was in the hospital hooked up onto machines, with no chance of recovery. Naturally, his family didn't want to pull the plug, as that goes against halacha. So in the middle of the night when the family members have gone home, the doctor (who is Jewish and not frum) pulls the plug, thinking he did his "good deed for the day". After all, his family was expecting it sooner or later, and why not minimize the poor guy's suffering, right?
WRONG!!! This now deceased man appears to the doctor in a dream and asks him why he did that. The shaken doctor says, "You were anyway not going to make it, and it was just a matter of time, so I didn't think it would really matter!" The soul tells him, "Had I suffered on those machines a few more days, I would have reached my tikkun for my soul and would have entered Gan Eden. But now you interrupted it and my soul can find no rest!" The doctor asks, "What can I do to help you???" The neshoma tells him if he starts keeping Shabbos and Kashrus, it will be an aliya for his neshoma since he's doing mitzvos in his zechus. The doctor did so and a few months later, he became a true ba'al teshuva.
Being that we're frummer yidden, we should understand that we don't understand everything that goes on. So even if he has "no chance" of recovery, there may be other cheshbonos at work here. Our chief concern should be to follow halacha regardless of what WE think.
77
Nov 06, 2008 at 02:53 PM Mendy Hecht Says:
I think we should all come together and chip in so the parents can move their son out and keep him on a privately rented machine and licensed physician on 24/7 call until G-d's next move, whatever that may be, rather than spending our time and energy fighting the hospital. I think this is the best compromise between the hospital and our emunah. We can fight for legal protections later.
78
Nov 06, 2008 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:
#72:
The hospital's website is
http://www.childrensnational.org
There are lots of contact e-mails and telephone numbers there. Send out a few!
79
Nov 06, 2008 at 03:34 PM Anonymous Says:
I would suggest that family shall commence action in Federal Court which shall have jurisdiction since it involves parties from different states and constitutional questions. Such action shall be commenced in New York where the family lives, and where they probably will find more sympathy and, perhaps, a Jewish judge. They can ask the court to issue a federal supremacy decree, stopping the DC state action. But this action must be commenced BEFORE the state judge issues his ruling. Once they obtain a preliminary injunction, which is very likely in this case, they will, at least, gain a lot of time, perhaps years, between motion practice, expert opinions, trial, decision, reargument, appeals, remand, ect.
80
Nov 06, 2008 at 03:31 PM AH Says:
Can someone please post a draft to email to the hospital. Not everyone has the right words in there mouth (keyboard..)
Thanks.
81
Nov 06, 2008 at 03:31 PM family Says:
motel brody is my relative and you people dont even know how much pain they went trough and to say he is brain dead or hes nesameh is floating give him rest you are all not thinking witha brain wouls you do the same if the child is yours or do anything possible to save him how dear you jugde a person till you are in his position hashem can do a ness even if his brain dead which cant be proven for a hundred percent and lets all give chisk to family and if you cant just shut up
82
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:12 PM Anonymous Says:
To whom it may concern.
It is my sincere concern reading about the 12 yr old brain dead boy Motl Brody of Brooklyn, my concern is that I need to remind myself that I'm living in the greatest country in the world, or so I thought? such an issue is well suited for Communistic country, this is below our dignity not to remember that the choice of life & death belong in the hand of our Creator THE ONE AND ONLY GOD in no matter which state.
The Jewish community will never forgive nor forget if anybody will MURDER this child.
ZVI FRIED
ps. the Jewish community is praying for the wellbeing of this child hopping thet he will have a full recovery, as well as for the peaceful freedom of United States of America that GOD blessed us with.
pss. kindly observe http://www.vosizneias.com/22166/2008/11/06/washington-dc-hospital-ran-to-court-asking-to-end-life-support-for-brooklyn-boy-2/ and read the pain of the Jewish community all over the world.
83
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:11 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
who made you a rabbi?? who r u to say who's considered alive or not?? do you have ANY idea what it means for a person even in the state of this young boy to what he can accomplish in the eyes of G-D????
84
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:08 PM Yanky Says:
Just heared from a family member, that the D.C. Superior Court pushed off the case for Monday. Please continue sending emailes ro the Hospital
85
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:02 PM Anonymous Says:
FLASHBACK:
'Dead' man recovering after ATV accident - Doctors said he was dead, and a transplant team was ready to take his organs -- until a young man came back to life
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23768436/
86
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:02 PM Anonymous Says:
WELL SAID 81 I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER, LUZER AND MIRIAM SUFFERED ENOUGH
87
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:47 PM Anonymous Says:
FLAHSBACK 3:
Child survives afer his parents "were told he was for all intents and purposes "brain dead"..."
http://ourlittleangel.ca/SachasStory.html
88
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:
“ i dont understand, it said on vosisnies thst abraham lesser has bought victoria hospital maybe trasfr the kid to this hospital. as long as it takes thats it. ”
although lesser bought victoria hosital, the hospital is shut and he will be renting the property to a college. the nursing home that came along with the package is more likely, thats up to zieger. once you're considering a nursing home the options are endless. thats the part i don't understand, we b"h have so many heimish owned nh's that can take this on themselves.
89
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:49 PM nat schwartz Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
As long there is a heart beat is still being alive
90
Nov 06, 2008 at 04:56 PM Anonymous Says:
To whom it may concern.
I’m writing to you today concerning Motl Brody, a 12 year old child of Brooklyn, NY. Although you have been given the great opportunity to heal people and make their lives better, I think that you would be overstepping your boundaries by deciding what life is and what death is. Life is sacred and given and taken by God - and only God, of course that’s not the way all people feel but that’s the way the patient and his family feel. I can understand your position, scarce resources and limited space which once letting young Motl go will make it possible to bring other patients in and generate greater revenues. Please don’t forget, the health care field is more about caring lovingly than increasing revenues. Although you may get clearance to cut the life short that would not make it right. Please consider the feelings of the family, please consider the fact that this is what their way of life is, sustaining life as long as possible. PLEASE I BEG, STAY IN THE HEALING BUSINESS. I’m sure that when you started your career in this field, had I asked you, you would never have imagined that you would be the one to decide that its time to put the patient to rest and his family to more grief, you joined this great field because you wanted to make a difference for the better, please be sensitive just as you were when you started out. You know, a person working as a leather crafter does wonders with the leather they produce and manufacture, but you know what they disregard most? Leather, they even step on it all the time, it on the floor like garbage. You are doing wonders with lives, please don’t disregard the ones you cant do much with, PLEASE CARE FOR MOTL AS LONG AS MOTL CAN BE CARED FOR. PLEASE I BEG.
SINCERELY
A caring member of the community
91
Nov 06, 2008 at 05:29 PM Anonymous Says:
I am a family member of the boy, everyone stop arguing, take out a tehillim and start davening. His name is Mordechai Dov ben
Miriam Shaindel. May he have a speedy recovery, Refuah Shelaima!!
A caring family member
92
Nov 06, 2008 at 05:25 PM Expatriate Owl Says:
“ I would suggest that family shall commence action in Federal Court which shall have jurisdiction since it involves parties from different states and constitutional questions. Such action shall be commenced in New York where the family lives, and where they probably will find more sympathy and, perhaps, a Jewish judge. They can ask the court to issue a federal supremacy decree, stopping the DC state action. But this action must be commenced BEFORE the state judge issues his ruling. Once they obtain a preliminary injunction, which is very likely in this case, they will, at least, gain a lot of time, perhaps years, between motion practice, expert opinions, trial, decision, reargument, appeals, remand, ect. ”
The venue is in the District of Columbia. All courts in the District of Columbia are federal courts. The courts in New York would likely dismiss it for want of venue, given that the patient, doctors and hospital are all in the District of Columbia.
One can use litigation to delay things in the District of Columbia just as well as in the various Districts of New York. The one thing that cannot be done is to play state courts against federal courts because there are no state courts in the District of Columbia.
Moreover, there are Jewish judges sitting on the bench of the Circuit Court for the District of Columbia.
93
Nov 06, 2008 at 06:27 PM Anonymous Says:
“ To whom it may concern.
I’m writing to you today concerning Motl Brody, a 12 year old child of Brooklyn, NY. Although you have been given the great opportunity to heal people and make their lives better, I think that you would be overstepping your boundaries by deciding what life is and what death is. Life is sacred and given and taken by God - and only God, of course that’s not the way all people feel but that’s the way the patient and his family feel. I can understand your position, scarce resources and limited space which once letting young Motl go will make it possible to bring other patients in and generate greater revenues. Please don’t forget, the health care field is more about caring lovingly than increasing revenues. Although you may get clearance to cut the life short that would not make it right. Please consider the feelings of the family, please consider the fact that this is what their way of life is, sustaining life as long as possible. PLEASE I BEG, STAY IN THE HEALING BUSINESS. I’m sure that when you started your career in this field, had I asked you, you would never have imagined that you would be the one to decide that its time to put the patient to rest and his family to more grief, you joined this great field because you wanted to make a difference for the better, please be sensitive just as you were when you started out. You know, a person working as a leather crafter does wonders with the leather they produce and manufacture, but you know what they disregard most? Leather, they even step on it all the time, it on the floor like garbage. You are doing wonders with lives, please don’t disregard the ones you cant do much with, PLEASE CARE FOR MOTL AS LONG AS MOTL CAN BE CARED FOR. PLEASE I BEG.
SINCERELY
A caring member of the community
”
Beautiful written may hashem help that it should have a impact. Pls everybody pls stop think a moment before u press send the family members might read it pls we are dealing with ppl that are going through gehonim pls be considerate
94
Nov 06, 2008 at 06:28 PM Anonymous Says:
“ from where do you know???
dont you know hashem could do anything???? miracles happen..
does anybody know the boys name for tehilim?? ”
HIs name is Mordechai Dov Ben Miriam Shaindel please pray with all your heart and souls beleive me this family has gone through plenty
95
Nov 06, 2008 at 06:24 PM Anonymous Says:
“ And we thought this kind of cold behavior only happens in other countries. Welcome to America of Change. There will be less religious tolerance in the years to come. ”
America iz nisht andrish
96
Nov 06, 2008 at 07:21 PM Anonymous Says:
In answer to those who ask what to write in an e-mail to the hospital- you can just simply say- Please continue to care for Motl Brody./ Please respect the wishes of Motl Brody's family and do not remove him from life support./ Please repect the religious beliefs of the Brody family and keep their son, Motl Brody, on life support./ -or something similar. It is not necessary to give them long halachic or philosophical arguments, and certainly uncalled for to rant and rave and call them murderers. It is doubtful that anyone in a position to do anything at the hospital will be reading long megillahs, but they will get the message that many, many people are interested in having the wishes of the Brody family respected, and the child cared for as long as is necessary. May we be zoche to see yeshuos.
97
Nov 06, 2008 at 07:53 PM Sam Says:
“ If Hshm can make a ness and split the sea, He can perform a ness here too. What about those that wake up after many years from a coma? Be positive. ”
If we are relying on a ness, why not remove him from life support and hope
he'll just wake up and ask for the latest issue of 'Mishpacha'
98
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:26 PM Anonymous Says:
ditto to #76. I was going to say the same thing. The hospital should be made aware of this. It is a true story, not a fairy tale.
99
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:19 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If we are relying on a ness, why not remove him from life support and hope
he'll just wake up and ask for the latest issue of 'Mishpacha' ”
Now I have a question for you a person without a brain & without a heart like u sound is that considered dead
100
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:17 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If we are relying on a ness, why not remove him from life support and hope
he'll just wake up and ask for the latest issue of 'Mishpacha' ”
YOU are one sick person you have no feelings for the family what ever your beliefs are don't publish it regarding a specific case when the family might read it.
101
Nov 06, 2008 at 08:36 PM Mendy Hecht Says:
Sample letter to hospital:
To Whom It May Concern:
I'm writing to express my support for the Brody family as they face their worst personal nightmare. Please don't make it harder for them. Make no mistake--the Brodys and their community appreciate your concerns, but life is life--if there is a scarcity of machines, CNMC should be fighting for more machines, not for the turning off of the existing ones (especially if human beings--and complicated bio-ethics--are connected to them).
102
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:00 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If the kid has advace cancer .. what's the point.... its not like he'll wake up! .... ”
its not about waking up itabaout going thrugh a tikin in life
103
Nov 06, 2008 at 09:28 PM Anonymous Says:
“ its not about waking up itabaout going thrugh a tikin in life ”
and you know this because.........?
104
Nov 06, 2008 at 10:24 PM Anonymous Says:
If abortion doesnt matter to them, then this doesnt either. The fetus starts with the heart and life ends with the heart. Its unbelieveable that we have come to a this point were doctors take matters in their own hands..
105
Nov 06, 2008 at 11:42 PM Anonymous Says:
“ This is, as we all know, a situation becoming more and more common. The problem is there on multiple levels. We know it is absolutely ossur to take someone off life support. However, more and more states are passing laws stating that once the doctors declare death, the hospitals are no longer to required to provide care at the public's expense.
If the patient is properly insured, and/or the family can pay, most will albeit reluctantly, continue treatment out of respect for our religious beliefs.
The problem is that most insurance plans then claim that they do not insure dead people, and that the patient's policy is terminated upon the declaration of death.
This results in a family's loosing all they own to attempt to keep their loved one breathing. Eventually the family is broke, and can no longer fight.
One suggestion is a special new FRUM HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY which would be underwritten for sale to frum Yidden and others of similar beliefs. This policy would not cease until respiration could no longer be maintained, or until the family's rabbi or other religious leader agreed that the person is indeed dead.
These policies would certainly cost more, do to the potential of very high costs in these cases, but with all Yidden purchasing a policy like this, it would spread the risk, and keep the costs from getting as high as they would otherwise.
We need someone, a Frum Rabbi who is in the insurance business to contact a reliable insurer and discuss this.
My second suggestion is a fund which all frum Yidden contribute to, to pay the hospital bill in these cases, as well as provide legal representation by attorneys experienced in this matter.
If the hospitals know that we come with deep pockets, both to pay the bills, and to fight them with resources equal to, or better than theirs, they will back off.
The bottom line is money. If we can pay for it, we will get it. ”
would the life insurance companies honor a payout on such a ruling ? if so the family can have some money to pay
106
Nov 07, 2008 at 05:33 AM dovid Says:
email letters to this adress
smirza@cnmc.org.
107
Nov 07, 2008 at 05:11 AM ad mosai Says:
Let the family get senators invovled poloticians
im sure they can do something
108
Nov 07, 2008 at 03:10 AM Anonymous Says:
After (or perhaps before) sending an email to an un-cooperative medical team, let's all say a few kapitlach Tehilim to the One above, who can surely help.
109
Nov 07, 2008 at 12:53 AM Anonymous Says:
PUBLIC PROTEST
In addition to sending copies of this story to your email lists and encouraging them to email not only the hospital but also the media (including Washington Post, and similar media), here's what could possibly help b'derech ha'teva:
The frum community needs to have people show up in court in Washington DC. The hearing is starting at 10:30AM promptly.
The Jewish organizations will NOT organize this as they are too timid and conservative and will spend days and weeks arguing amongst themselves and convincing themselves that doing very little is the only sensible course.
Someone has to take the lead and organize a bus or at least a few carloads of Jews to attend the hearing. If even 30 Jews show up, the judge will take notice.
Conversely, if no one shows up except the family's lawyer, the judge will notice that as well. As will the media, which will be there (since a story was published by the Associated Press, it is being discussed worldwide).
If possible, someone can also organize a public protest outside the hospital (a permit may be needed). After this is arranged, the media can be contacted so they can be there for the protest. A few signs can be held up. Neturei Karta is good at showing up by the dozens at all sorts of rallies. Will anyone show up for this poor young boy as his neshama seeks chayay sha'ah, to be kept alive as long as needed for Hashem's plan? Or will people just blog here and rant and rave and then go about their business?
Will someone organize such a protest for this Sunday? For Tuesday, which is a day off for many people from work?
This is clearly a matter of "Lo Sa'amod al dam ray'echa."
And, quite frankly, "Im lo achshav, eima'sai?".
110
Nov 07, 2008 at 08:34 AM Anonymous Says:
to 109 did the family ask you to ask pepole to show up or is it just your way of making belive that you are an macher???
111
Nov 07, 2008 at 08:51 AM Anonymous Says:
“ to 109 did the family ask you to ask pepole to show up or is it just your way of making belive that you are an macher??? ”
It would be easier to organize such an event if you will get a few of the gedolai torah and respected poskim to sign a kol koreh asking people to show up.
112
Nov 07, 2008 at 03:01 PM Allan Says:
“ to 109 did the family ask you to ask pepole to show up or is it just your way of making belive that you are an macher??? ”
#110 I think that is a cheap shot at #9 and the comments made....here is someone trying to do something to help in this tragic situation...no need for name calling...at least this person is offering more than just nasty words.