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New York - The Need For Pre-Marriage Education In The Frum Community |
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News Source: Five Towns Jewish Times By By Rabbi Daniel Schonbuch, M.A.
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New York - This week I turn my attention to one of the most important stages before marriage: the engagement period.
It’s a fact of life that many young couples are unprepared for marriage. It’s true that couples learn about matters of Jewish law with their chassan teachers or kallah teachers before they get married. Yet there is a lack of knowledge of the effective communication skills and relationship-building tools that can enhance the feelings of love and camaraderie needed for a successful marriage.
Couples now face more demands than ever before. The typical complex marriage—managing two careers while rearing children—requires strong, well-established abilities to communicate, resolve issues, maintain mutuality, and set goals. Without this foundation, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed by stress and time pressures. Problems intrude much more easily than most couples realize. Marriage preparation can function as an immunization that boosts a couple’s capacity to handle potential difficulties.
Overall, we need to give our young couples better skills to become successful in their marriages. Unfortunately, couples spend very little time learning about the art of shalom bayis before they get married. And, unlike professions such as law and medicine that test and certify their practitioners, marriage—the most important and longest profession anyone can enter into—doesn’t require any specific training or certification. Couples may start a marriage unprepared to meet the challenges that occur on a daily basis, such as child rearing, financial pressures, and spending quality time together.
A person spends around 12 years in school preparing to enter college, which takes four years to complete. Yet, how many years do people train to get married, which is supposed to last a lifetime?
To take the analogy one step further, if marriage would be placed side by side with other professions, how would it rank? Today, the national statistics are telling us that the success rates are only around 50 percent. Imagine a doctor who was successful only 50 percent of the time or a lawyer who successfully resolved only half of his cases. At some point, there would be a national upheaval and a public call to evaluate if our doctors and lawyers are truly prepared to enter into their professions.
I am aware that our community does not share these discouraging statistics. Yet, many believe that the divorce rate seems to be rising in the Orthodox world, and divorce appears to be more common than ever before.
All of this points to the need to respond to the challenges facing young couples, to begin the process of premarital education. Couples need to learn marital skills and develop realistic expectations before the marriage takes place. Only then will they be prepared to cope successfully with the inevitable ups and downs of marriage.
Recently, a new program called the SHALOM (Starting Healthy and Long-lasting Marriages) Workshop has begun to teach engaged couples the skills needed to have a successful marriage. Run by the Shalom Task Force, the workshop teaches engaged couples practical tools to achieve a healthy marriage and to effectively meet each other’s emotional needs.
In just one or two sessions, the chassan and kallah cover important issues such as:
• Increased understanding and sensitivity to each other’s feelings;
• Communicating effectively through a sense of mutual respect;
• Promoting self-confidence in each other; and
• Financial management.
As our literature describes, “The SHALOM Workshop teaches specific, easily learned methods for successful communication and effective problem-solving.” The goal is that participants will emerge with a deeper self-knowledge and the tools to build a happy, successful, and long-lasting marriage.
It’s important to note that this workshop in no way replaces traditional chassan and kallah classes; rather, it enhances the knowledge learned by practicing easy-to-use and practical tools that can make marriage more enjoyable.
During the workshop, a couple will learn how to actively listen to one another, express their feelings in a healthy way, and negotiate a power structure for making key decisions in their lives.
One participant from New York who took the workshop commented, “As I am getting married very soon, I think that my future husband and I will greatly benefit from the workshop. Taking the time to listen and let the other person know you are listening felt very validating, and actually enabled us to do something we both were too subjective to suggest doing with each other on our own.”
It’s time to expand the scope of educational programs offered to engaged couples to improve their chances of having a successful marriage and building a binyan adei ad. A pre-marriage program like the SHALOM Workshop is the place to begin.
Rabbi Daniel Schonbuch, MA, is the executive director of Shalom Task Force. For more information, visit www.shalomtaskforce.org. You can e-mail questions to him at
rabbischonbuch@yahoo.com.
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Read Comments (84) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:03 PM Anonymous Says:
What a wonderful article..I just married off my son and he went for those lessons..
The best $$$$ i ever spent...
2
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:06 PM Anonymous Says:
As long as our rabbeim and teachers are brain washing our children that english education is a no-no and that marrying rich is the way to go and that kollel is it and nothing else works then thisarticle is a waste of time . Perhaps we need a depression to show the orthodox that god actually does want us to earn a living . Of course we have a shidduch crisis if our rabbeim are telling us to only mary rich .
3
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:11 PM shteig Says:
We prepare them very well. Boys may never speak to girls and after they are married they have separate seating and the women keep house, raise the children and work. Why ruin this with courses?
4
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:03 PM Anonymous Says:
I dont know exactly which young couples they're referring to, but in my community there is a big variety of choson kallah lessons before and for after marriage, and a lot of private counselors as well.
5
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:01 PM The Truth Says:
I think it should start even before one meets a shidduch.
6
Nov 20, 2008 at 12:57 PM Anonymous Says:
I am in a very frum family, born and raised in Williamsburg and still live here, I went to many classes before my wedding as most chasanim do, and B"H years later now, and the results are gevaldig!
Yes there are shiurim and workshops for chasanim and kalah's, but it has much more to do with the natures and attitude of the individuals...
As a matter of fact, I think the heimish rate of divorces is very low in comparison to the secular and non jewish world, it clearly gives some statement.
7
Nov 20, 2008 at 12:57 PM Chaim S. Says:
This article was so to the point. But what the author didn't bring out and may not realize, is that there should be two types of pre-marital instructions. The basic cultures of litvish yeshivish boys and girls and the rituals of meeting and getting married are so much different than in the chasidic communities. Different enough so that one single solution or education program cannot fit for these two diverse cultures, even though both are seemingly ultra-orthodox in their religious beliefs and practices.
8
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:16 PM Anonymous Says:
I'm aware of this workshop and it's the best thing ever for the 'heimish' community. If only all choson - kallah's would do these workshops before jumping into marriage, blissfully ignorant, the frum world would have a lot more marital peace and harmony. By the way, these workshop are totally free of charge and done as a service to the community...if you wish to donate, you may do so, but the workshop IS FREE.
9
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:
There are existing workshops and classes in all heimishe areas, i have no idea what this writer is aiming at.
10
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:22 PM M. Richter Says:
This article is GREAT!!!
However we all know the chances of this ever getting into Williamsburg... It will be publicaly banned by all RA____
11
Nov 20, 2008 at 12:56 PM shira Says:
Just as important is teaching your child a way to EARN A LIVING. How will these kids be able to support themselves? Who is going to support them when they are (1) unemployable and (2) do not know how to work for a living.
12
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:23 PM Big Masmid Says:
We need to respond to the challenges facing young couples, and we have been doing so for three thousand years. why change all of a sudden.
Most Chosonim and Kallas do go to special classes, whats wrong with this kind of education, why change the system all of a sudden? why not include the effective communication skills and relationship-building tools that can enhance the feelings of love and camaraderie needed for a successful marriage with the Choson and Kallah classes.
In some rare occasion when you notice funny behavior during the engagement period , its understandable to have some extra pre Maritial classes.
*The most important point to teach is something that the parents should have taught their child since they where born, and thats "MIDOS TOVOS," when one is nice to their spouse MOST problems are dissolved in no time, and most problems dont develope in the first place.
13
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:
I fully agree with this but i also think couples should go to sessions after marriage even when there are no problems. It will be so much easier for them to clarify things.
14
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:23 PM ML Says:
“ I am in a very frum family, born and raised in Williamsburg and still live here, I went to many classes before my wedding as most chasanim do, and B"H years later now, and the results are gevaldig!
Yes there are shiurim and workshops for chasanim and kalah's, but it has much more to do with the natures and attitude of the individuals...
As a matter of fact, I think the heimish rate of divorces is very low in comparison to the secular and non jewish world, it clearly gives some statement. ”
Because divorce is not excepted in the heimish world as it is in the secular and non jewish world. I personally know so many couples in williamsburg who are unhappily married and stay together because "s'past" nisht. and the many kids they have together. ........
15
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:
“ As long as our rabbeim and teachers are brain washing our children that english education is a no-no and that marrying rich is the way to go and that kollel is it and nothing else works then thisarticle is a waste of time . Perhaps we need a depression to show the orthodox that god actually does want us to earn a living . Of course we have a shidduch crisis if our rabbeim are telling us to only mary rich . ”
sorry, you're totally off.. what does english have to do with happy marriage, comm'on, think before you write.
16
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:
Does anybody know if there are workshops set up to help boys and girls in the dating process? (ie teaching boys and girls how to speak to other ,look at each other bekovid and what to expect on dates)If so please provide information about such programs.
17
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:
while money dose not buy happyness. not having money certinly dose not buy happyness. the problame with yeshivas today is in order to find a good shidduch you have to sit there till you get married. because if you go to collage at night to plan for your future you will not find a good shidduch.
18
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ As long as our rabbeim and teachers are brain washing our children that english education is a no-no and that marrying rich is the way to go and that kollel is it and nothing else works then thisarticle is a waste of time . Perhaps we need a depression to show the orthodox that god actually does want us to earn a living . Of course we have a shidduch crisis if our rabbeim are telling us to only mary rich . ”
ITS NOT THE YESHIVAS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM.
STOP SENDING GIRLS TO SEMINARY AND THE CRISIS WILL END!!!!!!!!
19
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:
“ sorry, you're totally off.. what does english have to do with happy marriage, comm'on, think before you write. ”
Because if you dont speak proper english you cant communicate properly unless u both use sign language and not very easy to find a very good job now can u? If yur wife speaks a polished english and you dont then its a recipe for disaster. We are living in the good old U.S. of A why shouldnt we have a command of the english language . when your grand parents were in hungary did they not speak hungarian well ? did they not have an hungarian education? They absolutely did .
20
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ We need to respond to the challenges facing young couples, and we have been doing so for three thousand years. why change all of a sudden.
Most Chosonim and Kallas do go to special classes, whats wrong with this kind of education, why change the system all of a sudden? why not include the effective communication skills and relationship-building tools that can enhance the feelings of love and camaraderie needed for a successful marriage with the Choson and Kallah classes.
In some rare occasion when you notice funny behavior during the engagement period , its understandable to have some extra pre Maritial classes.
*The most important point to teach is something that the parents should have taught their child since they where born, and thats "MIDOS TOVOS," when one is nice to their spouse MOST problems are dissolved in no time, and most problems dont develope in the first place. ”
Right to the point.
Lemme add, there are very successful classes for choson and kallah, so I just don't understand the article.
21
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Because divorce is not excepted in the heimish world as it is in the secular and non jewish world. I personally know so many couples in williamsburg who are unhappily married and stay together because "s'past" nisht. and the many kids they have together. ........ ”
Not in today's days my dear!! most people are not ready to suffer, and thats why in some cases there are divorces going on even in Willi or BP as well as other heimish areas if it doesnt work out well (whatever the reason). but in general you cant say that so many couples live in agony unhappy and dont divorce because s'past nisht.. not today, reality please!!
22
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:
Why is the husband walking ahead of his wife, in the picture? Part of a good, respecting relationship, is to walk side by side.
23
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:
Big Masmid.....this is NOT change....obviously, the teachings we've had until now are not enough. The shalom workshop is IN ADDITION to what we already have!
24
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ ITS NOT THE YESHIVAS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM.
STOP SENDING GIRLS TO SEMINARY AND THE CRISIS WILL END!!!!!!!! ”
beautiful . nice short and sweet . couldnt agree with u more
25
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:
AS A single bochur learning in yeshiva I find that Yeshivas are not doing enough to educate the boys as to what type of kallah o look for.
26
Nov 20, 2008 at 01:58 PM BinderDundat Says:
this argument will never end. those who believe in boys sitting and learning will say so until they are blue in the face. the fact remains that soon enough, harldy anyone will be able to support. jobs are becoming scarce enough as it is and that is for educated people. those who are supporting kids have seen their savings depleted by the market crash. yet we still have people who say that every boy should sit and learn, even going so far as calling working boys "second class citizens". To me, a boy that works and sets aside time to learn is far more a first class citizen than the 1000's of fakers warming benches in lakewood and in israel. Spare me your ridiculous denials. we all know its true. then there are those who always answer that the secular divorce rate is higher. who cares?? Our divorce rate is soaring. Education is very important. These young people getting married have zero social skills. ZERO. Its 4 dates and mazel tov. Because the seminary teachers said they will go to gan eden if they have a kollel husband. How do they know? were they there?
27
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:03 PM bitachon Says:
“ As long as our rabbeim and teachers are brain washing our children that english education is a no-no and that marrying rich is the way to go and that kollel is it and nothing else works then thisarticle is a waste of time . Perhaps we need a depression to show the orthodox that god actually does want us to earn a living . Of course we have a shidduch crisis if our rabbeim are telling us to only mary rich . ”
I resent your comment and you have to do teshuva. You obviously are not happy or around happy people.
The problem is that we as a society live way out of our means and that our kids grow up respecting money and wanting what yener has.
Parents who are involved in shiurim and chesed, don't always talk about money and don't fight at home have healthy and stable children regardless if they are rich poor and everything in between. It is our rabbeim who teach us to be sameach bechelkeinu and people like you are bitter. These classes are still important to reinforce what they saw at home. Try teaching an angry choson how to communicate and treat a spouse.
Again, do teshuva now.
28
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:18 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Because divorce is not excepted in the heimish world as it is in the secular and non jewish world. I personally know so many couples in williamsburg who are unhappily married and stay together because "s'past" nisht. and the many kids they have together. ........ ”
You prob don't live here in Willi. I don't think that you see it anywhere so many middle age happy couples.
29
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ We prepare them very well. Boys may never speak to girls and after they are married they have separate seating and the women keep house, raise the children and work. Why ruin this with courses? ”
Interesting. But you're out of touch. The fact is that there is much less divorces in the frum community, than in the non-frum community. So maybe this is the trick.
30
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:14 PM Anonymous Says:
“ We need to respond to the challenges facing young couples, and we have been doing so for three thousand years. why change all of a sudden.
Most Chosonim and Kallas do go to special classes, whats wrong with this kind of education, why change the system all of a sudden? why not include the effective communication skills and relationship-building tools that can enhance the feelings of love and camaraderie needed for a successful marriage with the Choson and Kallah classes.
In some rare occasion when you notice funny behavior during the engagement period , its understandable to have some extra pre Maritial classes.
*The most important point to teach is something that the parents should have taught their child since they where born, and thats "MIDOS TOVOS," when one is nice to their spouse MOST problems are dissolved in no time, and most problems dont develope in the first place. ”
yes there aree classes or chassanim and kallos before their wedding but 95% of thos classses only teach halacho when yes halacho is most important BUT you also need to learn how to behave with ones spouse in harmony
31
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:01 PM Benzion Twerski Says:
Courses like this address several areas. Basic MIDOS TOVOS is only one facet that is essential for a successful marriage. In most cases, boys and girls have little understanding of the opposite gender before marriage. Oh, maybe the girl has brothers and the boy has sisters, but the capacity to truly understand them and communicate with them effectively is limited. One cannot converse with the opposite gender without some guidance on how to manage the challenge. Some figure out things on their own because they have been imbued with appropriate midos and sensitivity to others. But this is not part of the curriculum in any of the yeshivos or girls’ schools. There are also scarcely few role models – our gedolim and leaders do not have their homes open to young bochurim or bachuros to observe their interactions with their rebbetzins.
Working in the field of counseling to couples, I have watched such poor training and preparation rob a young couple of the companionship and shleimus they need and expect. It is not the kollel or seminary. It is the skills that each bring to the home.
There has been much discussion in the past about ways to train kallah teachers to better prepare the girls for marriage. Too little attention has been given to chosson teachers. There are some truly spectacular ones, but they remain precious exceptions. I know. I get calls and consultations from those whom they have failed. I hear that some of these teachers have become the counselors for the marital difficulties that follow. That makes me cringe. I also hear of some really bad and dangerous advice that some of these untrained people are giving.
I am glad that there is something reputable and effective available that can help provide adequate preparation for the venture that will be the most important one that one takes in his/her entire life.
32
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:06 PM BIG MASMID editorial Says:
# 20 23 30 let me try explaining, when one is engaged there are many new tasks to for fill, Chazal tell us all beginnings are difficult, being engaged includes, huge amount of wedding plans, finding an apartment, painting-carpeting-fixing-wedding invitations, flowers, pictures, (NO video Chas Vesholom) gifts, loads and loads of shopping-clothing-housewares-furniture-appliances-light fixtures, shoes, Seforim, Silver store items, birthday gift, some Streimel, some Wigs, some Spitzel, jewelery, Diamonds so on and on.
Now do you know that for many Chosanim and Kllas find it to be a very big strain to go to learn the Halocos, but they have no choice in the matter, why burden them to take additional class? incorporate all of the above in one place.
BTW any good Chosson or Kallah teacher wont just teach the plain dry Halochos,Haskofos and basic advice is usually included, I have been around the block, and there are the professionals and the beginners like in any other field.
Very soon Moshiach will be teaching us everything we have to know.
33
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:06 PM Anonymous Says:
I don't understand these classes - Is it to replace the parental responsibility to teach children these things as they grow older towards marriage? If it is I really don't think it will help that much. Children are molded for 18-20-22 years, that won't break in a few classes.
34
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:53 PM Concerned Member Says:
#27... seriously who do you think you are?
The amount of Gayvah you put into your posts is awe inspiring. B"H our Gedolim (who have the RIGHT to talk like you do) have the middos and seichel not to.
You're the one who needs to do Teshuva for your horrendous attitude.
35
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ yes there aree classes or chassanim and kallos before their wedding but 95% of thos classses only teach halacho when yes halacho is most important BUT you also need to learn how to behave with ones spouse in harmony ”
the word HARMONY is false there is no such a thing .althogh everyone seeks it .it just doesent exist . its rather ahavoh achvoh sholom vereus that means LOVE BROTHERNESS PEACE AND FREINDLY no one yet defined the meanning of HHAARRMMONNYYY ...and that's y there are so much unhappy couples cuz they r seeking harmony which they can't define cuz it does not exist
36
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ # 20 23 30 let me try explaining, when one is engaged there are many new tasks to for fill, Chazal tell us all beginnings are difficult, being engaged includes, huge amount of wedding plans, finding an apartment, painting-carpeting-fixing-wedding invitations, flowers, pictures, (NO video Chas Vesholom) gifts, loads and loads of shopping-clothing-housewares-furniture-appliances-light fixtures, shoes, Seforim, Silver store items, birthday gift, some Streimel, some Wigs, some Spitzel, jewelery, Diamonds so on and on.
Now do you know that for many Chosanim and Kllas find it to be a very big strain to go to learn the Halocos, but they have no choice in the matter, why burden them to take additional class? incorporate all of the above in one place.
BTW any good Chosson or Kallah teacher wont just teach the plain dry Halochos,Haskofos and basic advice is usually included, I have been around the block, and there are the professionals and the beginners like in any other field.
Very soon Moshiach will be teaching us everything we have to know. ”
thank you i enjoy the way you bring your points out keep it up masmid
37
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:09 PM Anonymous Says:
If the boys and girls would learn mussar - is Yeshivas and Girls schools - this would be much less of an issue.
38
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:48 PM G Says:
Jonathan M. Lasson Psy.D. in Baltimore has a program with same type of goals in mind.
it is well done and very helpful for those soon to be married.
39
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:48 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I think it should start even before one meets a shidduch. ”
Correct.
You should learn there what you should look out in a shidduch altogether.
40
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:44 PM UBET Says:
#3 keep sticking your head in the sand and ALL your problems will go away!!!!!!! What you're saying is "our kids don't an education". I bet your marriage could use some lessons, if this is what you think how a marriage should run. Poor wife!
41
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:44 PM Anonymous Says:
“ We need to respond to the challenges facing young couples, and we have been doing so for three thousand years. why change all of a sudden.
Most Chosonim and Kallas do go to special classes, whats wrong with this kind of education, why change the system all of a sudden? why not include the effective communication skills and relationship-building tools that can enhance the feelings of love and camaraderie needed for a successful marriage with the Choson and Kallah classes.
In some rare occasion when you notice funny behavior during the engagement period , its understandable to have some extra pre Maritial classes.
*The most important point to teach is something that the parents should have taught their child since they where born, and thats "MIDOS TOVOS," when one is nice to their spouse MOST problems are dissolved in no time, and most problems dont develope in the first place. ”
very well said but I might add that its not just MIDOS TOVOS its the midah of understanding somoone else... and all midos tovos are teaching this great great important tool in life. and atmost in married life cuz anivus (humbled) brings to understant different minds and views the midah of kaas comes from getting overexited when something didn't go the way u wanted and so on and on . and this is the main chochme and hardest task in married life + in raising kids cuz even if u mistaked and and u caused a hurt feeling or even tears . u just have the ability and strength to fix it by stepping down of your self pride and by that u reach far up and u gain even more given pride and kovod. and its a simple thing to understand .but very hard to practice. but there is no price for it..and that's y no shir can help and no pre education can skip on that CUZ MARRIAGE IS NOT ABOUT WORKING ON YOUR SPOUSE ITS WORKING ON YOURSELF.. and it requires just work not shiurim
42
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:29 PM Anonymous Says:
Rabbossai,
everyone seems to be missing 1 thing: While chsson/kallah classes teach the halachic element of intimacy, they often neglect the hashkafic element. It is NEVER OK for a husband to neglect his wife it this area. It is NEVER OK for a wife to refuse to go to the mikva (R"L), or use it as a bargaining tool.
43
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:
“ You prob don't live here in Willi. I don't think that you see it anywhere so many middle age happy couples. ”
You're very right. Just ask around and you'll find that it's true.
44
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:
“ As long as our rabbeim and teachers are brain washing our children that english education is a no-no and that marrying rich is the way to go and that kollel is it and nothing else works then thisarticle is a waste of time . Perhaps we need a depression to show the orthodox that god actually does want us to earn a living . Of course we have a shidduch crisis if our rabbeim are telling us to only mary rich . ”
lol sad but true
45
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:35 PM mayer Says:
The ones that need this workshop bacause they talk alot during the engagement should go and take the curse because if not it can ch"v end with a devorce. But the chasidim because they do not talk till the wedding, they use the first year telling each other there lifetime stories till they get the first baby then they are busy and happy with the new arrivel. They have no problem and don't need it. Burech hashem in the chasidishe circles there is alot less devorces then in the non chasidish lifestyle. So chasidshe neighborhoods like willi is off the hook.
46
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:32 PM Anonymous Says:
Question is who are those teachers?
Are they married happily so they can teach about it, or are they unhappily married people who are talking of their own experiences?
Actually this should start not when they are already engaged or even before they are of shiduchim age. Teaching of midos etc should start when they are small children. Teach them how not to step on someone elses toes. How not to hurt the feelings of others. How to not be an "achshen". How not to always have it your own way.
If this will happen we won't ever need these classes.
Besides, this won't be acceptable in the heimishe community for chusen and kallah to go together to such courses when hardly meeting at the marriage license office is acceptable.
47
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:31 PM tipshus Says:
“ Why is the husband walking ahead of his wife, in the picture? Part of a good, respecting relationship, is to walk side by side. ”
On what are you basing your theory?:)
That walking side by side is the way to a respecting relationship huh?
48
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:29 PM Anonymous Says:
This sounds like a wonderful plan. The thing is; while this workshop is targeting the new generation, there are no workshops for people that may have started out on the wrong foot, and continue down their path, with heart-wrenching results.
49
Nov 20, 2008 at 02:16 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I am in a very frum family, born and raised in Williamsburg and still live here, I went to many classes before my wedding as most chasanim do, and B"H years later now, and the results are gevaldig!
Yes there are shiurim and workshops for chasanim and kalah's, but it has much more to do with the natures and attitude of the individuals...
As a matter of fact, I think the heimish rate of divorces is very low in comparison to the secular and non jewish world, it clearly gives some statement. ”
You're right. I believe that if they will educate us the way they want divorce rate will actually go up.
50
Nov 20, 2008 at 12:51 PM Happily Married Yid Says:
This is true that young gentlemen and the women have to be well prepared.
but, why does this heading say "frum community"??? are you aware that the divorce rate and the domestic violence rate is a thousand times worse by non jewish?? and also a much higher rate by non frum jews.
51
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ ITS NOT THE YESHIVAS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM.
STOP SENDING GIRLS TO SEMINARY AND THE CRISIS WILL END!!!!!!!! ”
AGREE!!! The problems starts when girls are TOO educated!! They have know one thing.... Respect their Men.
52
Nov 20, 2008 at 03:55 PM kugel 18 Says:
we shouldn't be encouraging people to get married so young. They are not mature enough to get married yet. the best prep for marriage is maturity. Yitzchok avinu only got married when he was 40.
53
Nov 20, 2008 at 04:45 PM tzadig Says:
If it's not broken don't fix it!!
54
Nov 20, 2008 at 04:46 PM Anonymous Says:
to 51 education isn't the problem its what they are taught
55
Nov 20, 2008 at 04:35 PM AAA Says:
I was always wondering, are we giving our children the right meaning of marriage? R we brought up our self’s in the chasiddisher community what marriage is al about? I think that we are thought that marriage is basically getting along ,being nice to each other , and bringing up and being M”chanich our kinderlich. Is this not wrong? Is marriage supposed to be falling in love?
56
Nov 20, 2008 at 04:33 PM bitachon Says:
“ #27... seriously who do you think you are?
The amount of Gayvah you put into your posts is awe inspiring. B"H our Gedolim (who have the RIGHT to talk like you do) have the middos and seichel not to.
You're the one who needs to do Teshuva for your horrendous attitude. ”
Please articulate where my gaavah is.
What I posted are facts that any Rav and competent therapist will tell you.
You sound offended by nothing and I think that you and I both know why. Let's keep it our little secret.
57
Nov 20, 2008 at 04:58 PM Big Masmid Says:
“ we shouldn't be encouraging people to get married so young. They are not mature enough to get married yet. the best prep for marriage is maturity. Yitzchok avinu only got married when he was 40. ”
you big Nar the Gemorah teaches us to get married at age 14 who are you to contradict it. why Kugel 18 why not Kugel 0
58
Nov 20, 2008 at 04:55 PM yiddishe bubby Says:
“ this argument will never end. those who believe in boys sitting and learning will say so until they are blue in the face. the fact remains that soon enough, harldy anyone will be able to support. jobs are becoming scarce enough as it is and that is for educated people. those who are supporting kids have seen their savings depleted by the market crash. yet we still have people who say that every boy should sit and learn, even going so far as calling working boys "second class citizens". To me, a boy that works and sets aside time to learn is far more a first class citizen than the 1000's of fakers warming benches in lakewood and in israel. Spare me your ridiculous denials. we all know its true. then there are those who always answer that the secular divorce rate is higher. who cares?? Our divorce rate is soaring. Education is very important. These young people getting married have zero social skills. ZERO. Its 4 dates and mazel tov. Because the seminary teachers said they will go to gan eden if they have a kollel husband. How do they know? were they there? ”
your comment is so on the mark. The Roshei Yeshivas have to do more to encourage boys who are not 100% into learning that there is kovod in working and learning. The house of cards that the yeshivas have built over the last couple of decades is fast coming to a crash much as the market. Even when we recover financially those parents who supported their children will be retiring and then who supports, those who have not worked or educated themselves to do anything? And yes, the divorce is soaring in our own communities let's get a reality check here and beg our gedolim to do more and say more about this situation and take a break from takonos of concerts and such.
59
Nov 20, 2008 at 05:52 PM Moshe Yoselle Says:
The rebbi zichiso yugen oilini did not approve of this..This is not unzer derech. My us in Belz you call a wife " A HOUSE " you dont call her by her real name because " Es past nisht" what ever that means. Working? Man dechar shemie. You take from Mechel and you give to rechel. Eating? cholent ,over night kugel . by the time you reach 50 Your an old man with high blood pressure and ready to die. Bottom line THIS SYSTEM IS BANKRUPT . I wish there would be a rosh yeshiva or rebbi that really cares for the community and send the boys to work and demand the people to exersize daily like the Rambam says .How about a Mandat that everyone should drive a bike instead of a car.You would aslo save money by not having to own a car.. Yasher koach
60
Nov 20, 2008 at 06:03 PM Boro Parker Says:
“ I was always wondering, are we giving our children the right meaning of marriage? R we brought up our self’s in the chasiddisher community what marriage is al about? I think that we are thought that marriage is basically getting along ,being nice to each other , and bringing up and being M”chanich our kinderlich. Is this not wrong? Is marriage supposed to be falling in love? ”
While not everyone "falls in love" prior to marriage, there should definitely be a positive feeling towards one another, and love will develop in a normal healthy relationship. A marriage cannot last even one day if the husband or wife feel that they are not respected, appreciated and yes, loved. Giving to one another builds up the relationship, but effective communication and understanding each other's wants and needs is very important to the success of a marriage.
And just being nice to each other and raising kids is not what constitutes a marriage. Husband and wife need to have an enduring relationship so that when the kids get married, they are still there for each other as best friends should be.
This can only happen if throughout the childraising years they are working on their relationship to make it better and better. Because is this is not so, there are plenty of divorces today "after we marry off the kids", some of them happening right after sheva brachos of the last child!
But when there is a great marriage, with true love, it lasts forever. Till eternity.
I can think of many chasidish marriages of both types. If you dont invest in your marriage, you will pay the penalty. So if you ask this question, get the help you need!
61
Nov 20, 2008 at 06:26 PM stam yid Says:
What terrible analogies!
Marriage is a "profession"??!
Maybe for certain actresses, who marry old wealthy oil tycoons to inherit their money.
62
Nov 20, 2008 at 06:25 PM torah im deerech eretz Says:
Wow, 59 posts and no one mentioned it. It should be mandatory for both guys and girls to read MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS.
Further, shouldn't children be learning the content of these "classes" at home, from their parents? This assumes that they learn what works if their parents have a good relationship, and learn what not to do if their parents are the opposite.
#3- I hope you are joking.
#5 is on the money
#18, there is some truth to what you say, but it needs to be qualified.
63
Nov 20, 2008 at 06:19 PM yona doe Says:
If all the learning boys marry the rich, who will support their children?????? Us working boys???
64
Nov 20, 2008 at 06:09 PM Hey where the pic Says:
Hey great looking hall where is that Boro Park, Williamsburg????
65
Nov 20, 2008 at 06:59 PM are you for real? Says:
“ The ones that need this workshop bacause they talk alot during the engagement should go and take the curse because if not it can ch"v end with a devorce. But the chasidim because they do not talk till the wedding, they use the first year telling each other there lifetime stories till they get the first baby then they are busy and happy with the new arrivel. They have no problem and don't need it. Burech hashem in the chasidishe circles there is alot less devorces then in the non chasidish lifestyle. So chasidshe neighborhoods like willi is off the hook. ”
And what happens at the third year? and the fourth and the 10th ? are you kidding me? When two people "who have not talked during their engagement" live together and start a family, they have the same issues and life situations as the couple that went out during their engagement. Your comment is so shallow....
66
Nov 20, 2008 at 06:42 PM seicheldig geredt Says:
Great article, however I don't find the answer for the following question the author asks "A person spends around 12 years in school preparing to enter college, which takes four years to complete. Yet, how many years do people train to get married, which is supposed to last a lifetime?
Yes, you mention a new program that was recently .. yara yara.. still not the answer to your question.
pleae allow me to put in my 2 cents. There is no way you can teach anyone in couple lessons how to spend the next 50-70 years growing a family, I say "THE LESSON MUST BEGIN THE DAY THE CHILD IS BORN, WHAT THEY SEE, WHAT THEY ARE USED TO, THAT'S HOW THEY WILL BEHAVE" that's 20-30 years of physical 1 on 1 class lecturing and it MIGHT work (if everyone's lucky). if you send your children to classes, Yes, you trained him right, NOW YOU TRAINED THE SEND THEIR KID FOR LESSONS. but how to make life comfortable and successful they had to see it live for years observing their parents SHOLOM BAYIS.
Lots of yiddish nachas
67
Nov 20, 2008 at 07:54 PM Anonymous Says:
A good marriage comes with sacrificing for each other. Unconditional love. Friendship, Content with what you do not have. I could go on but I will not bore you.
That is why the divorce rate was lower years ago in our community.
69
Nov 20, 2008 at 08:18 PM pincas Says:
I totally disagree. marriage is not the hardest profession. RAISING CHOLDREN is. No training, no chasan classes, no kalah classes. just get preganat and havethem. no license - like marriage. no schooling. just be a parent.
70
Nov 20, 2008 at 08:09 PM Anonymous Says:
The divorce rate by the orthodox Jews is between 10-20 percent
By the non Jewish its about 70-80 percent
We don’t need an education where doing just fine thank you very much
Take your education and shove it
71
Nov 20, 2008 at 08:31 PM Anonymous Says:
To Pincas. You are sooooooo wrong. Training for raising children begins the day you are born. Learning from ones parents. Let us not forget. Zechus Avos and Siyata Dishmaya.
72
Nov 20, 2008 at 08:43 PM pincas Says:
“ If all the learning boys marry the rich, who will support their children?????? Us working boys??? ”
Yeah - we can do the new american method. redistribute the wealth. Go Obama
73
Nov 20, 2008 at 08:54 PM Anonymous Says:
“ this argument will never end. those who believe in boys sitting and learning will say so until they are blue in the face. the fact remains that soon enough, harldy anyone will be able to support. jobs are becoming scarce enough as it is and that is for educated people. those who are supporting kids have seen their savings depleted by the market crash. yet we still have people who say that every boy should sit and learn, even going so far as calling working boys "second class citizens". To me, a boy that works and sets aside time to learn is far more a first class citizen than the 1000's of fakers warming benches in lakewood and in israel. Spare me your ridiculous denials. we all know its true. then there are those who always answer that the secular divorce rate is higher. who cares?? Our divorce rate is soaring. Education is very important. These young people getting married have zero social skills. ZERO. Its 4 dates and mazel tov. Because the seminary teachers said they will go to gan eden if they have a kollel husband. How do they know? were they there? ”
The reasons for the rising divorce rate don't always have to do with the boys who are fakers sometimes its just a matter of immaturity or maybe people rushing into something because of pressure so don't blame all divorces on the fakers and guys. Why can't people ever try a little not to exagerate so much while trying to express their views and make their points?
74
Nov 20, 2008 at 08:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If all the learning boys marry the rich, who will support their children?????? Us working boys??? ”
By the way there is the idae of a yissachor/zevulan type of arrangement since back to yissachor and zevulan and while some people may have a problem giving up their hard earned money to support learning one may want to take the oppertunity to do just that and earn reward after 120. There have always been learners and workers and it would better to get the full reward by supporting learning happily and with the right intentions.of course that doesn't mean that all boys deserve to be supported for as long as they want but at least one should keep in mind that there are those who are quite worthy...
75
Nov 20, 2008 at 08:59 PM Anonymous Says:
“ ITS NOT THE YESHIVAS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM.
STOP SENDING GIRLS TO SEMINARY AND THE CRISIS WILL END!!!!!!!! ”
in high school my principle said only marry learning boys not working boys they dont have good hashkafos. then my friends went tosem and refused to listen to anything but boys learning in bmg and they are still waiting to get married 6 years later
76
Nov 20, 2008 at 09:36 PM response to #74 Says:
it's easy to show, in this partnership, that you give money, but harder to show that you deserve the money and are not shmoozing or taking coffee breaks. on the whole, learning is not the same it used to be.
77
Nov 20, 2008 at 11:39 PM kugels wife Says:
“ you big Nar the Gemorah teaches us to get married at age 14 who are you to contradict it. why Kugel 18 why not Kugel 0 ”
Mr Masmid its Ben Shmoyneh Esrey Lechupah , that's why he's kugel 18. and no one wants a half baked kugel.
78
Nov 21, 2008 at 05:43 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Because if you dont speak proper english you cant communicate properly unless u both use sign language and not very easy to find a very good job now can u? If yur wife speaks a polished english and you dont then its a recipe for disaster. We are living in the good old U.S. of A why shouldnt we have a command of the english language . when your grand parents were in hungary did they not speak hungarian well ? did they not have an hungarian education? They absolutely did . ”
while sharing the same language is definitely a bonus, there are many couples from joint backgrounds ( french, isreali ......) that do have successful & happy marrieges. they do not share the same common language yet communicate beautifuly. it's the respecting & acceping each other that's so much needed & lacking in today's society.
79
Nov 21, 2008 at 01:03 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Great article, however I don't find the answer for the following question the author asks "A person spends around 12 years in school preparing to enter college, which takes four years to complete. Yet, how many years do people train to get married, which is supposed to last a lifetime?
Yes, you mention a new program that was recently .. yara yara.. still not the answer to your question.
pleae allow me to put in my 2 cents. There is no way you can teach anyone in couple lessons how to spend the next 50-70 years growing a family, I say "THE LESSON MUST BEGIN THE DAY THE CHILD IS BORN, WHAT THEY SEE, WHAT THEY ARE USED TO, THAT'S HOW THEY WILL BEHAVE" that's 20-30 years of physical 1 on 1 class lecturing and it MIGHT work (if everyone's lucky). if you send your children to classes, Yes, you trained him right, NOW YOU TRAINED THE SEND THEIR KID FOR LESSONS. but how to make life comfortable and successful they had to see it live for years observing their parents SHOLOM BAYIS.
Lots of yiddish nachas ”
Of course middos tovos should be learned the day children are born and throughout life from their parents and from seeing their parents relationships, but what happens when a child grows up in a home where a parent is abusive to the children, and at the same time loves her children, so these children take is as " I can abuse the people i love" and they go into relationships thinking 'it's ok' to abuse their wives-whether it's verbally emotionally or physically--they don't know of another way--as this is what they saw at home!!! And abusive men on the outside can be the nicest guy to everyone, the biggest charmers, and then behind closed doors is where he turns into the 'scary guy'--so how can we pinpoint these men and say they need these classes? we would never know they even come from such homes!!! And unfortunately MANY girls fall into these traps with men that are abusive--and in the beginning they use their charming side, and when the abuse comes out--she's already pregnant with her first child--and once children are involved the women feels 'how can i leave--what about my child?" so she continues to remain in the abusive relationship, and the abuse cycle keeps on happening over and over again--as the woman feels she doesnt have a choice but to remain---and she continues to have more kids while hoping the abuse will go away--but really does it ever go away?!!!! It's not fair for these women and children who get stuck and eventually are forced to get divorced because the abuser refuses to go for help--because most abusers usually have a very big ego-and always think their in the right and don't even think they have a problem?!!!
So unless there is a 'general rule' for everyone to take a 'series' of courses before they are allowed to go under the chupah--these women and children will continue to suffer--and it's not fair that these men are ruining their lives! (and don't ask me not to make judgements as i have quite a few friends and relatives who have been through these situations-and enough is enough already!!! SPOUSAL ABUSE MUST BE SHUNNED IN THE COMMUNITY THE SAME WAY CHILD ABUSE IS BEING SHUNNED!!!So many girls and children's lives are being ruined because of these heartless men who grow up either yes seeing good middos (but still may mold their own way) or not seeing good middos and are allowed to go under the chuppah so easily without any mandatory classes of the way a man should treat his wife, how to respect her, communicate with her,make compromises etc...and if this pattern was stopped, and the rabbonim wouldn't marry them without these mandatory classes--for a long period of time--it should be part of a curriculum for an entire year at least--then maybe some more marriages in the frum community can be saved............if anyone has any other ideas on this please do share...
80
Nov 21, 2008 at 08:18 AM seicheldig geredt Says:
“ Of course middos tovos should be learned the day children are born and throughout life from their parents and from seeing their parents relationships, but what happens when a child grows up in a home where a parent is abusive to the children, and at the same time loves her children, so these children take is as " I can abuse the people i love" and they go into relationships thinking 'it's ok' to abuse their wives-whether it's verbally emotionally or physically--they don't know of another way--as this is what they saw at home!!! And abusive men on the outside can be the nicest guy to everyone, the biggest charmers, and then behind closed doors is where he turns into the 'scary guy'--so how can we pinpoint these men and say they need these classes? we would never know they even come from such homes!!! And unfortunately MANY girls fall into these traps with men that are abusive--and in the beginning they use their charming side, and when the abuse comes out--she's already pregnant with her first child--and once children are involved the women feels 'how can i leave--what about my child?" so she continues to remain in the abusive relationship, and the abuse cycle keeps on happening over and over again--as the woman feels she doesnt have a choice but to remain---and she continues to have more kids while hoping the abuse will go away--but really does it ever go away?!!!! It's not fair for these women and children who get stuck and eventually are forced to get divorced because the abuser refuses to go for help--because most abusers usually have a very big ego-and always think their in the right and don't even think they have a problem?!!!
So unless there is a 'general rule' for everyone to take a 'series' of courses before they are allowed to go under the chupah--these women and children will continue to suffer--and it's not fair that these men are ruining their lives! (and don't ask me not to make judgements as i have quite a few friends and relatives who have been through these situations-and enough is enough already!!! SPOUSAL ABUSE MUST BE SHUNNED IN THE COMMUNITY THE SAME WAY CHILD ABUSE IS BEING SHUNNED!!!So many girls and children's lives are being ruined because of these heartless men who grow up either yes seeing good middos (but still may mold their own way) or not seeing good middos and are allowed to go under the chuppah so easily without any mandatory classes of the way a man should treat his wife, how to respect her, communicate with her,make compromises etc...and if this pattern was stopped, and the rabbonim wouldn't marry them without these mandatory classes--for a long period of time--it should be part of a curriculum for an entire year at least--then maybe some more marriages in the frum community can be saved............if anyone has any other ideas on this please do share... ”
you are 100% right, will a class and couple lesson do the job? this is what I am asking the author.
BTW did you ever hear a man being called a MECHASHEF? why are women being called MECHASHEIFA. obviously there are more men being abused by women than women by men.
81
Nov 21, 2008 at 01:18 PM Anonymous Says:
I will agree not agree that there are more men being abused by women, as that's completely incorrect, but i will say that yes there are some cruel women out there and it's their sons that end up this way and end up abusing their wives.
82
Nov 24, 2008 at 01:55 AM matzahlocal101 Says:
So let me make following ridiculous suggestion. If you watch your parents and there happily married despite certain disagreements, and they speak to each other respectfully. (Like the israeli husband that says his wife always calling a shmattah. Shmattah? Shmattah?) They help each other with household chores and raising the kids and you feel you're a relatively happy well adjusted kid, why not emulate them? DUH! The 20 years observation of ones frum parents should put any 3 hour "relationship course" to shame.
83
Nov 24, 2008 at 01:43 AM Anonymous Says:
“ we shouldn't be encouraging people to get married so young. They are not mature enough to get married yet. the best prep for marriage is maturity. Yitzchok avinu only got married when he was 40. ”
Right. When chazal said shmonah asrei lichupah they were wrong. They didn't realize that times would change and girls would have to go college and get degrees before marriage, and men would have to establish businesses and in order not offend the surrounding gentiles by marrying at the age of eighteen (like most gentiles did in the 1800s and 1900s) they would have to grow with the times and marry in thirties and forties like their Gentile neighbors. I guess that's because Chazal weren't as smart as you are. AFRAY LIPOOMAY!!
84
Nov 24, 2008 at 01:30 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Why is the husband walking ahead of his wife, in the picture? Part of a good, respecting relationship, is to walk side by side. ”
Because he's frum and it says in shulchan Oruch that it's ossur to walk "Achorei ha'isha" (just one of the many simanim that modern orthodoxy has cut out of shulchan oruch.) One must run and walk in front of her. he just got married and he's not used to walking next to a woman. If he was modern orthodox he'd be holding her hand like he did for the six years they were dating before the wedding.
85
Nov 24, 2008 at 01:25 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Because if you dont speak proper english you cant communicate properly unless u both use sign language and not very easy to find a very good job now can u? If yur wife speaks a polished english and you dont then its a recipe for disaster. We are living in the good old U.S. of A why shouldnt we have a command of the english language . when your grand parents were in hungary did they not speak hungarian well ? did they not have an hungarian education? They absolutely did . ”
My English is fine and I use it when I speak to goyim. I speak to Jews in Yiddish and I wouldn't, nor would I let my children marry someone who only speaks English. What does English have to do with a Yiddish shidduch? Israelis need to learn English to communicate? Russians need to learn English to communicate? Cause you grew up in America hanging out with goyim you think English is important. To those of us who grew up among Jews Yiddish works fine.