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Brooklyn, NY - CBS2 Report Culture Shock: Secret Lives Of Hasidic Jews

Published on: November 24, 2008 11:47 PM
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Leah," who left the strictly Hasidic world, now struggles with secular lifeLeah," who left the strictly Hasidic world, now struggles with secular life

Brooklyn, NY - How the frum community should react when some of our most scandalous problem comes to light

Tonight a major media report by CBS TV on  Orthodox-community impropriety of the most sordid sort has our entire world talking.

For this reason alone, VIN News cannot simply ignore it; we must say something.

But it is the subject of the report that had our editorial board cogitating late into the night: How indeed are we to react to this?

If we say nothing at all, we merely keep our heads in the sand. The facts are out there, and to say nothing is to be complicit in charges of denial.

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But if we say the wrong thing, we risk raising the righteous and justified wrath of our readers and spiritual brethren.

VIN News tried to contact at least one frum authority on the subject of relationships and is working on getting a guest editorial from several others. But in the meantime, we are convinced of one thing: This problem is a symptom—and to truly address the symptom, one must address the cause.

In other words, the outside world in general, and the Internet in particular, are not the problem—just like 75 years ago, when the equivalent of these things happened, the problem was not the automobile or the telephone which facilitated these things.

VIN News will address the root causes in the near future, whether they are lack of personal identification with one’s birth frum community and its beliefs and values, abuse and/or resentment of an endless variety of forms, unhappiness—or any combination of the above. [perhaps in the mean time to read an article posted by VIN News on the issue of marriage]

But in the meantime, VIN News fears an avalanche-like, wild and hysterical emotional reaction on the part of frum leaders and grassroots alike. We therefore urge calm level-headedness and acceptance of the fact that historically, tragically, this is really nothing all too new at all.

Secondly, VIN News calls for an organized, rational community-wide response by our finest mental-health minds. While this is not the first media report of its type and may not be the last, it certainly is one of the biggest, most extensive and most impactful—and therefore, hopefully, may very well be frum-community denial’s last hurrah.

As Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a professor at Yeshiva University, told CBS 2 HD in a response to their report while the isolation in Hasidic life actually works to preserve traditions, there is a downside.

“You can’t put up a wall. You can put up a wall for one generation, two generations. But the wall is always breached. It is not a permanent solution to anything. Education is a permanent solution,” Tendler said.

His advice, “Take the best of the outside world and spit out what is unfit.”

Due to the highly sensitive nature of the subject, if you’d like to comment, VIN News most respectfully requests of our readers to please respond thoughtfully, respectfully and with due deliberation. Inflammatory and/or inappropriate comments will not be published.



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Read Comments (291)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Nov 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM A.B.K Says:

Gun to my head, I could be a witness how true and how right they are...

2

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Wile I think all what they said is true. I'm sure it's the same all over, seiks, hidu, Muslim, etc. why did this even hit the news. Is CBS2 running out of stories?

3

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:09 AM Anonymous Says:

its again the same pepole -they have a problem with thre merige so yhey go to the media - to make us all the look bed

4

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:25 AM Anonymous Says:

no one understands the people who go of the way they were raised until they are in there shoes. no one should judge them. for cbs to do this story is pathetic. they could of as much done a story on the arabs and muslims who are also very strict in there religion. i just wish everyone will watch what they writes as to make sure this post wont turn into a big chillul hashem since not only jews read this site. one note if i can: can people please spell check before writing . i am sometimes so embarrased by the spelling mistakes people make its pathetic.

5

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
A.B.K Says:

Gun to my head, I could be a witness how true and how right they are...

If you're having an affair, get help.

6

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:23 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

its again the same pepole -they have a problem with thre merige so yhey go to the media - to make us all the look bed

the media said most of the chasidic people are pious. that was the first sentence in the cbs news article i read that vin directed me to. the media is alerting the jewish community to the increasing access to inappropriate outlets for the dissatisfaction that does exist.

7

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Dog bites man is no news; man bites dog is news - that's why it's so newsworthy. Nevertheless, this is unfortunately a very real problem that we in the frum world have to tackle with absolute seriousness. Unless we face up to this growing problem, we will certainly be faced with an explosion of similar shocking stories. Hashem Yerachem.

8

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:20 AM chacham Says:

SE'YUG LECHUCHMU....SHTIKA!!

9

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Vos iz neias: why do u need to to pull our eyes in that direction?!
do you take it on your shoulders that because you brought this news to our attention, that some yiden might get "ungeshtekt" with "feigelech" in kop?!
think about it!

10

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:28 AM yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

11

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

its again the same pepole -they have a problem with thre merige so yhey go to the media - to make us all the look bed

Sorry for your comment , its not that they are having problems with there marriage its that they having nebech problems and they don't know how and were to bring it out , its always nebech the people which were pushed down because there family didn't have money or because they had some kind of problems and it wasn't taken care the Wright way , and nebech these people are in very bad and deep pain , i have a friend who is unfortunately a victim the only way is , and this is for all of us when we or you see some body even he is not your type or he is not so frum its very in portend to say a good word or ask him how r u how is your job , or even a good morning or good evening , spend that 5 minute to make him or her feel like person (man)and may hashem help all these holy neshumes together with all Jews, and remeber 1 thing from chazal al tudin chaverchu ad shetiga , if we will have this wright attitude things are going to change and as a part of klal Ysroel we should think what I'm telling u kol Ysroel is called the chosen ones for a reason because we look out for each others

12

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
chacham Says:

SE'YUG LECHUCHMU....SHTIKA!!

Too much SHTIKA is what got us here in the first place!

13

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:32 AM williamsburg on wheels!! Says:

its a fact it happens. what Chanel 2 has to do is bring these such stories out to gain an audience. i personally set my timer and taped it and was unimpressed, i thought it would be better more factual! what they said about us they could have said about ANY religion. i am not mareid and i would love to get something!!

14

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

If you're having an affair, get help.

You think he needs help? Can't he have an affair without anyone's help?

15

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:30 AM Anonymous Says:

In all fairness, the reporters went out of thier way several times to point out that the vast majority of chassidim are pious and loyal spouses.

16

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

its again the same pepole -they have a problem with thre merige so yhey go to the media - to make us all the look bed

Let's not judge them. Try to imagine the pain of being locked into a loveless never-ending awful relationship - it could drive anyone over the edge.

17

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:19 AM mimi Says:

How beautiful! Yossi is ok with his kids remaining in the ultra orthodox community.
Isn't that ironic!
A poshiter yiddene!

18

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:18 AM Cusid Says:

Last week thier was a poll in the news ny post etc. that 60 - 70 % of men say they had an affair so i'm still proud to be a cussid even if we have 5% bad appels becuse i can assure you this problem is maybe by 5% of merriges in willy anyways

19

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:15 AM Anonymous Says:

This is same old recycled propoganda story that is aired or published from time to time. The best way to deal with it is to ignore it and let it pass.

Thats not to say their community has no problems. ALL communities have their own issues.

20

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Here we go with rabbi tendler again starting up with the heimishe community thats old news as far as vin don't get so carry'd away with this article you make it sound like you have bring down the heavens for what ??? For some board journalist that didnt have what to write for a while as far as the truth yes 100% true but don't forget that most people are happy & lead productive lives & bring up beautiful family's unlike the secular world that cheating & changing marriges like I change my socks

21

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

Let's not judge them. Try to imagine the pain of being locked into a loveless never-ending awful relationship - it could drive anyone over the edge.

It hasn't driven me or my wife over the edge even after more than twenty years.

22

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Al tudin es chavarcha ad shtagia limkomo

23

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:37 AM MS Says:

Yossi's english is remarkably accent-free for someone who was supposedly raised Hassiddic. It sure sounds that English (and not Yiddish) was his first language -- and a midwestern English at that.

As for the special report, I'm surprised to know that two individuals constitute a trend.

24

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:36 AM cher Says:

I don't think its pathetic for cbs to do a story on this. It's a human interest story. I find it very interesting, and I'm part of the community. To goyim or outsiders who wonder what goes on in such a different, closed community this is very interesting. CBS is just doing what they do best- writing interesting stories that ppl. want to read. don't be mad at them.

25

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the other hand, it would be a real shame if we allowed our knee-jerk wagon-circling to blind us to the problem and the need to drive it out of our communities completely and immediatly.

26

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:35 AM Anonymous Says:

R.B. You are living your life. Please let us live ours. Nobody has been looking your way, so you bring yourself into the limelight by going public. Nobody cares about your issues. Have your life the way you want it. But Please, 'STOP BLAMING'. Time to move on. Live and let live.

27

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Its always great to see Tendler throwing stones from his haughty perch in his glass house.

28

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Can u please say what the report was about? I dont watch television & I know nothing about it! You really spiked my curiousity!!

29

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:34 AM Props Says:

VIN -I have to say Im really impressed that youre addressing these issues .Unlike other frum news outlets(Yated,Hamodia). Youve made me think all is not lost with our community............

30

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:39 AM Anonymous Says:

I think that there is no need to make a big deal out of a non-issue. The reporter did not find these things out on his own, but rather was fed garbage by someone that went off the derech and wants to malign us. In fact, I think that the girl is the same one that was in the New York magazine a while ago. There is no need to fall into the trap set up for us. Just move on.

31

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:44 AM nu nu Says:

This just shows how important it is to education children to the outside world. Stop building walls and instead strengthen the foundation for children.

32

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:43 AM krratzmech Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you wish it shild be 95%, its moch less then that, at least 70% are not a match at all in the chasidishe world, thay just get married becuse of society prussure. and not becuse thay fall in love with each other, that means that the system is sick, but go fight cityhall

33

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Maybe the problem is us, not CBS.

We need to stop giving them things to report.

34

 Nov 25, 2008 at 05:35 AM happily married Says:

Reply to #32  
krratzmech Says:

you wish it shild be 95%, its moch less then that, at least 70% are not a match at all in the chasidishe world, thay just get married becuse of society prussure. and not becuse thay fall in love with each other, that means that the system is sick, but go fight cityhall

I agree that there is a serious problem in the frum world where young boys and girls are not prepared for life in the way of relationships. Mostly we learn from parents, seeing them relate with one another in a respectable and loving manner but what of those that do not see this at home and start off a marrriage on the wrong foot? As was reported on the frum websites(I think VIN) there needs to be a lot more education for the young boys and girls in the area of day to day relationships and forsure intimacy. Probably most couples grow into it but the question remains why would we take a chance and why let young people go through hard times till they grow fond of each other. We can remedy this by educating the youth(not just on their wedding day how to be intimate when they get home from their wedding). There should be much more feelings for one another and by shunning it we are not helping anyone. Intimacy is the way of life and hashem created us with desires so we should know how to express them in proper way. I am sure that dr. Benzion Twersky can give us a lot of insight on the problem in the community as he deals with it on a daily basis and how to properly remedy it.

35

 Nov 25, 2008 at 05:03 AM MARK Says:

NOT BEING A CHUSID................I ENVY THE SUPPORT AND CHESED OF CHASSIDIM........................................ALL THE PROBLEMS ARISE ONLY BECAUSE OF SOME LITTLE REEBELECH THAT USE THEIR RABONIS AS A PERSONAL MONEY MACHINE

36

 Nov 25, 2008 at 04:40 AM Hudy Says:

Looking for greener pasture in forbidden territory will not make them happy for too long. At the end of the day they all regret it and would love to go back home. But then it’s too late. These people need psychiatric help for their temporary pleasure-seeking and stupidities.

37

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:30 AM Get a Life! Says:

We've got swingers! Ta-Da! Who would have thought? Actually the more erudite readers of VinNews would be aware there is no shortage of exotic stories detailed in various responsa. Though many of them are so "rich" as to be beyond the imagination of Hollywood's ablest writers, there is only the halachic discussion - one almost never sees the moaning and yelping about how did it happen, or what went wrong with the education system. Even if the best minds of the last five thousand years should join together and form the perfect Utopian society, human nature will still not fail to lay their plans to waste. This story is simply about human nature doing it's thing, or as the saying goes "move along folks, nothing to see here."

What was interesting was Rabbi Tendler's comments. I guess my opinion of him has moved up from 0 to 1. Our much-touted Shidduch modus operandi may be the pious way of getting hitched, but that does not mean it is the only legitimate way of going about it. Expecting everyone to go through the Shidduch system is sort of the same as demanding everyone donate the optimal fifth of their income to tzedokoh. It is the good and pious thing to do, but we can be more than happy if everyone gives "just" ma'aser, without having to label them as "chilled" or "modern" because they "only" followed halochoh instead of making sure to copy the chumros being done by everyone around them. In those cases where we in the frum world tried to practice "institutionalized Lifnim Mishuras HaDin" - i.e the Shidduch system and the Kolel system- pretty much all we accomplished was losing touch entirely with the very thing we were trying to accomplish. We need to be a touch more honest and relaxed, and tell our kids that its okay to ask out directly a girl who caught their interest for a date, so long as they are serious and not meeting for fun, though they can expect much better results with the shidduch system. We can be honest about the advantages of the Shidduch system without ramming it down anybody's throat.

The same holds true about Kollel. If we really possessed that sense of honesty we claim to bear, we would be able to tell our young men and women about the greatness of a life dedicated to Torah, but without making them feel compelled to adopt it. I get the feeling that the people propagating this culture, have some inner doubts of what they preaching, and are therefore compelled to take the element of choice out of the picture.

38

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:53 AM L.b. Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CBS has made a wake up call. We need to look at these people with rachmones and realize that there are serious problems with the marriage systems. I wonder if they could take a poll of how many people in the chasidic community have happy marriages and actually love their spouse. Maybe the dating system needs to be changed? Perhaps the young Bachurim and Meidlach should be taught what is ok to "not like" about a prospective shidduch? This clearly was a problem in both cases of the report! Both were scared to say something that had to do with the physicality of the other prospect.
Anyhow, may hashem have rachamanus on those who have transgressed his ways and may they in turn do teshuva.
(ps hows my spelling?)

39

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:41 AM L.B. Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its not just 2 unhappy neshomas, its 2 people who represent a lot more individuals. some unfortunately are oiver on adultery with their guf because they are up to the point that they cannot control their YH, yet others who are too embarrassed to throw off the Ol Torah could be oiver with their eyes and hearts. This story goes on inside the heads of struggling yungeleit who are not happy with their "prearranged" marriages and dont know how to achieve a love their wives. Unfortunately not all of them see the beauty in yiddishkeit and the traditions because they were never taught and explained what they mean and what the beauty of it is, which is why they become morose and fall out of their communities. Anyways our communities are very beautiful but not to everyone as they are to yourself.

40

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:38 AM Anonymous Says:

I think (if my opinion means anything) that fundamentally our system is effective that's why most people are happily married. However, with all the challenges of this era it is vitally important to implement slight modifications in how we go about certain aspects of our lives. Including: stronger emphasis on aquiring a solid english language, better and more thorough education of marriage and all aspects involved, lastly, implement a rule that there should be a minimum of six dates between boy and girl before "they" decide if they are made for each other. Most important thing to remember is that "a shidduch is bashert"!

41

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:34 AM Hudy Says:

You write: “Let's not judge them. Try to imagine the pain of being locked into a loveless never-ending awful relationship - it could drive anyone over the edge.”
That’s why the Torah gives the full right for a Jewish man or woman to divorce and find themselves a spouse to their liking. If they can do it legally, there’s no reason they should look for shmutz elsewhere and bring mamzerim into the world and go off the derech.

42

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:17 AM Anonymous Says:

in every community there are those that just don't fit in to the mold or those that are not able to stick to the standards.... each to his own... they're entitled.....let them leave and find a place where they do feel comfortable... there is no reason for them to be miserable.... but let them do it either prior to marriage or if they are stuck in an unhappy marriage there is the option of divorce. there is no reason to commit adultery.
as far as running to the secular world to report their unhappiness and need for change...that's just people trying to get their 15 minutes of fame... what they don't realize is that aside from abandoning certain halachos.. they are also causing a tremendous chilul Hashem. they probably don't realize that the tiny sliver of attention they might get is truly not worth the slander of an entire community. but i geuss thats between them and Hashem. May they (and all of us) do teshuva and serve him in their (our) own unique way.
as for the community on a whole i would suggest that cbs do a report on all the chessed and tzeddakah that the chassidic and frum communities do.... i don't think any other community outside of the frum world has as many chessed organizations as we do.
and that's what we all should focus on...
aside for some of the issues.. (which you will find anywhere) we truly have what to be proud of.

43

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:17 AM rush Says:

Let just put things in perspective .
If you go back even hundreds of years age there were always a few bad apples doing what they're not supposed to(look in all the tesheeva seforim what type of shalos there are)maybe the problem is little more wide spread today because of the internet and the enviorment we live in but overall i think our way of life has succeeded by far more than any other the only difference is that today there's a thing called the drive by media and they pick and choose whatshould be reported so don't panic the world is not ending because of two lowlifes made headlines.
Be proud we have nothing to be ashamed of.
I'll bet you anything and everything try the other way around the openminded free world you'll never be satisfied there's a reason we yiden have highest success rate in every aspect of life for the past 3000 plus years. We never did and never will give up our way of life even if it means giving up our lives!! And cbs we'll surely not change that

44

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:15 AM chsid Says:

Reply to #32  
krratzmech Says:

you wish it shild be 95%, its moch less then that, at least 70% are not a match at all in the chasidishe world, thay just get married becuse of society prussure. and not becuse thay fall in love with each other, that means that the system is sick, but go fight cityhall

looks like your from the 5 % that are not happy. but from my approxemetly 300 freinds & family its 5 % if not less that are not happy

45

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

Let's not judge them. Try to imagine the pain of being locked into a loveless never-ending awful relationship - it could drive anyone over the edge.

im not judging any one- i wish them only the best-but the answer is not going to the media and put down a all comunty

46

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:08 AM FVNMS Says:

Please don't attack me I have no interest in defending what is pure truth.

As far as CBS and others of their ilk are concerned, food for thought: At any given time, there are tens of thousands of aircraft flying. Rarely does one crash. You only hear of the latter. Result? People are afraid of flying. Also, all the rules of piloting and air traffic control center on the obvious: don't be one of the rare cases that make the news. The same is true of Orthodox Judaism. Not much elaboration neccessary here.

For the rest of us: The giants of our past, may they rest in peace, NEVER would have dreamt that, although well intended, frumkeit would have evolved into something that so many disaffected youngsters view as the problem instead of the solution. Not all, but so much of what my generation was taught amounted to restrictiveness, pressure, docility, guilt and shame.

It's logical that when children learn by example that our lifestyle is one of joy and serenity, they would never consider the alternative. Mitzva Gedola li'hiyos besimcha tomid. Why because absent simcha, Torah just doesn't sell. A life of tum'ah and ta'avah appears like a veritable eden to our sad, depressed and bored youth.

How does our Shabbos table look? In what tone of voice do we talk to our kids about yeshiva/cheider/learning/rebbe/morah? How do we teach our children to daven and how do we react if they aren't doing so the way we'd like them to? How do we present tznius: "wear that and I'll kill you!" or "a special package comes in a special wrapper"? Don't like the second option? Don't cry when she becomes a shanda once she's no longer scared of you.

Speaking of shandas (only as a few of us call them); the most effective way to drive a girl into a boyfriends arms is to deny her affection and happiness at home. Its a no-brainer, wouldn't you say? I won't say much more about the matter in the spirit of good taste, other than that its too easy for predators to sniff out an easy mark. Why? Because no matter how modest her clothes are, they cannot conceal her obvious misery.

NEWSFLASH: your sheltered child knows more about male-female realities than you did at his/her age. NOW DEAL WITH IT. But by all means, throw that stoopud TV out of your home.

47

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:03 AM Anonymous Says:

i think alot of this should wake us up, and see our problems not stay blindfolded. we gota do somthing. most people will blame the rabbonem, the society, the structure. listen guy's, you are a man for your self, you are sopoosed to put your roots better, when it comes to chiniuch and ysodos and shitos. if you dont know there are smart people that could help, our frum comunity has lot of organizations and psycholigists that could put you on track. dont live in denial.

48

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:58 AM Anonymous Says:

There are many ultra orthodox/ and chasidish men women and children who fantisize about what the outside secular world has to offer from which they've been sheltered from - Thank G-d! I've never left my orthodox life but I did have a chance to get very close to the secular world during a period of my life where I was working as an actress for television. I will tell you all - IT IS A WORLD OF LIES, FILTH, IMMORALALITY AND SADNESS. ALL THOSE GLITZY, FAMOUS, JEWELED HOLLYWOOD MILLIONAIRES ARE THE BIGGEST LIE EVER. THEY ARE ACTUALLY MISERABLE, DEPRESSED ALCHOHOLICS AND SUICIDAL. i'VE MET MANY OF THEM AND I WAS NOT IMPRESSED WITH EVEN ONE. IF YOU ARE CHASIDIC/ ORTHODOX THANK HASHEM EVERY DAY THAT YOU WERE FORTUNATE TO BE BORN OR BROUGHT UP AS A PRACTICING JEW. ASK HASHEM TO HELP YOU THROUGH DIFFICULT TIMES OR PAINFUL CHALLANGES IN YOUR LIFE. GOING OUT TO THE SECULAR WORLD WILL NEVER BRING YOU TRUE HAPPINES. REACHING OUT TO HELP OTHERS DURING YOUR OWN PAINFUL EXPERIENCES CAN ACTULALLY HELP YOU GET THROUGH YOUR OWN ISSUES. WHEN A TEENAGER OR GROWNUP MAKES A DECISION TO LEAVE HIS TORAH VALUES TO GET EVEN WITH
G-D, IT'S ALMOST AS IF A LITTLE CHILD THROWS A LITTLE PLUSH TOY AT HIS MOMMY OR TATTY AND SAYS " I'M POTCHING YOU!" HASHEM IS SO SO SO SO SO BIG THAT HE IS ABLE TO CARRY THE PAIN AND THE PROBLEMS OF THE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF ALL PEOOPLE IN THE WORLD. IF ONLY WE TURN TO HASHEM AND ASK HIM IF WE COULD CRY ON HIS SHOULDER AND ASK HIM TO CARRY US EVEN THOUGH WE ARE CRYING FROM HIS PUNISHMENTS AND SCOLDINGS. JUST HOLD UP YOUR HANDS AND CRY, HASHEM, I DON'T WANT ANYONE ELSE TO HELP ME. I ONLY WANT MY TATTY/MOMMY - OF COURSE MEANING HASHEM! IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO FIX THINGS. DO YOU REALLY THNK THAT YOUR AVAIRA ( SIN ) IS TOO BIG FOR HASHEM? YOU COULD HAVE DONE THE WORST AVAIRA IN THE WORLD BUT OUR WONDERFUL KING OF KINGS IS WAITING PATIENTLY FOR US TO COME TO COME BACK TO HIM. WHY DO SO MANY SINNERS COME BACK TO HASHEM? BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW THE TORAH SAYS THAT THE JEWS THAT HASHEM LOVES DEARLY ARE THE ONES WHO MADE A MISTAKE AND THEN CAME BACK. THEY ARE CONSIDERED OUR GREATEST TZADIKIM. DON'T BE AFRAID- MEN WOMEN, TEENAGERS, PLEASE COME HOME!!!!!!! WE LOVE YOU!!!!! REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEYIDIDUS, JUST A REGULAR MOTHER IN THE JEWISH NATION. P.S. IF YOU COME BACK TO TORAH AND THEN, BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS, SOMEONE ELSE FOLLOWS Y OUR PATH AS WELL, YOU CAN NOT IMAGINE YOUR LEVEL OF GREATNESS IN THE EYES OF HASHEM. SEE YOU IN YERUSHALAYIM AT THE GEULAH- VERY SOON IY"H.

49

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Look, I personally know many chasidic people who cheat on their wives, although not with other chasidim, but it's cheating nevertheless. Some do it becuase they're not satisfied at home, some because they can and simply won't bother to resist, some because they need it more than others. The point is, there will always be people who do this sort of thing and I don't think there's a damn thing you can do about this. Based on our tradition, there IS no other way but for arranged marriages. And what if it wasn't arranged, do you seriouslly think people would be that much happier? How much can you really know about a person by "formally" meeting with them I don't care how many times? Yes, arranged marriage has a big downside becuase you pair two people who more than often have zero in common, and are not atracted to each other, but really, what is the solution? I don't think there is a realistic one. Rabbi Tendler can say what he wants, do you want to tell me that non-chasidic don't do this sort of stuff? Of course they do! This happens everywhere there are humans. As far as I'm concerned, all this report shows is that yes, we are humans, too, and some of us have temptations and choose not to resist. No biggie.

50

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50 AM kratzdich Says:

Reply to #32  
krratzmech Says:

you wish it shild be 95%, its moch less then that, at least 70% are not a match at all in the chasidishe world, thay just get married becuse of society prussure. and not becuse thay fall in love with each other, that means that the system is sick, but go fight cityhall

There's help out there go get it quick

51

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

It hasn't driven me or my wife over the edge even after more than twenty years.

Spast nisht that's why

52

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:47 AM Anonymous Says:

I am a kollel guy and although i don't know to which extent this actually exists what i do know is that this problem is there in potential.Of the conversations i had with so many friends who don't have internet access and they tell a story so similar to that of Yossi's and leah's tells me that we could be having many more of these stories in the future heaven forbid.The way we handle shiduchim is definitely part of the problem even if we were to agree that the chasidish way is correct.How many people do we know that make their childrens shiduchim to benefit themselves more than their kids?! for honor,for money and so forth.Our tradition never had it to force our kids into unhappy marriages that benefit ourselves! Another factor is sadly some of the leaders who we follow,how can our children be happy with the spouses they get when they know that the rebbe or roshyeshiva is looking for his son the most beautiful girl and from the richest family?! Perhaps if they would set the guidelines of qualities to look for in a spouse our children would be happy with what we found them!And all the above goes with saying that we are causing our own problems to a certain degree,if our daughters go out in the streets dressed the way we are sadly getting accustomed to how is possible for yungeleit to stay happy with their wives?! This article hits us full force and is a bleeding cry to wake up and be aware of our wrong actions and attitutes that are taking their toll on the community with interest. May Hashem have mercy and give up another chance...

53

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:29 AM Anonymous Says:

1)the percentege of unhappy marriges in ths seculer world is much more, 2) if your lookink for help there are places you can get it
so don't blame the chasidic lifstyle

54

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:26 AM Shlomo Says:

A few points to consider (sorry for the length:
1) In NYC, what goes on in the Jewish community is fodder for the media. There are many Jews in the NYC metropolitan area. The frum world is of interest because, to many, it is odd/different.
2) We in the frum world hold ourselves to a higher standard. All of us, at times, fail to meet that standard but do t'shuva and keep on trying. However, some failures are newsworthy because they are large, continue over many years, and have impacts in other areas (for example the nursing home scandals of years ago, the Rubashkim mess now, etc.). Those types of incidents, of "religious" people failing in a big way is "a story" for the media. Frum Jews are not singled out (although, to us, it may seem so at times). People like stories that feature personal failures: Senators behaving immorally, Ministers having affairs, and, yes, Yidden behaving badly. Hypocrisy sells and the media knows that. Sure, some of it is antisemitism but most of it is "strange people" who are "religious" who are "hypocrites."
3) In the past few years, there have been an increasing number of articles (paper, magazine, web) and books on Hasidim who have gone off the derech. Sociologists are now studying the phenomenon and are producing article for scholarly journals.
4) There is a world out there and it is impacting us. We have kids that "don't fit in" but the community doesn't accommodate them. We have kids abusing drugs and alcohol. We have adults in abusive marriages. We have adults molesting children. Is it 90%? Of course not. But it surely is not 0%.
5) The community does not like talking about or addressing these problems.
WARNING: no serious problem gets better by ignoring it!

The response has to be more than slay the messenger: "the media is evil," "those people want to malign us," "other people do it," etc. Those are all denial responses (even if every response has a degree of truth: yes, the media can be evil, those that are off the derech may want to "take a shot," and other people do do it.).
At the end of the day, there is truth in the story and that truth must be addressed.

55

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Bottom line(s):
1- 2 people do not constitute a trend (especially when one is trying to get custody of her kids)
2- the tag line, that there is an organization which "helps" people adjust to the outside world (and a link to their website via the cbs website), should have raised people's suspicions
3- so Rabbi T says that locking out the outside world has its downside....so does totally embracing it! There is a "shvil hazahav"!

56

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

1)the percentege of unhappy marriges in ths seculer world is much more, 2) if your lookink for help there are places you can get it
so don't blame the chasidic lifstyle

#53 Unhappy marriages in the secular or non-Jewish world is irrelevant as they have no concept of staying with their first spouse for the rest of their lives.

On the other hand, we Jews are am kedoshim and living a holy life is the basics of Judaism.

You’re right about your second point. Chassidic lifestyle is not the cause of the problem as I’m sure there are more dishonest non-chassidim than chassidim.

57

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:27 AM Anonymous Says:

IF THE SECULAR WORLD ADMITTED THAT THE YOUTH IS MUCH LOWER AND MORE ROTTEN BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET, WHY CAN'T WE ADMIT TO IT?
Although it's BH a very small percentahe of our youth that fall out, big part of it is the internet.

58

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:39 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

Can u please say what the report was about? I dont watch television & I know nothing about it! You really spiked my curiousity!!

I think without saying specifically what it is about and just saying that it is an issue with marriages and that it was reported by an outside news source it is pretty obvious what it is about. Hope that clears it up.

59

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:37 AM YEH Says:

Sure not being faithful, sneaking around, lying, cheating, you think that is cool. You loose. You can never trust anyone who is a cheat. This has nothing to do with how restricted someone is when growing up. This has a reflection of your self esteem self worth. Of course G-d gave us a evil inclination. The evil inclination is cunning and enticing. But if you think of yourself as good enough, you will never cheat and then justify it. The outside world hates us with a passion. If someone does not like you they will always look for ways to put you down. I am aware that this issue is reality. But all of those that stray really do not feel content with their new way of life. A life of lies never made anyone happy. The world they came from allows for divorce. if they were so unhappy why not go that root. What we need in our community is Love. Unconditional Love. We need to express in all of our affairs. The way they are experimenting is not Love. Ahavas Yisrael. Love your fellow man.

60

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Here we go with rabbi tendler again starting up with the heimishe community thats old news as far as vin don't get so carry'd away with this article you make it sound like you have bring down the heavens for what ??? For some board journalist that didnt have what to write for a while as far as the truth yes 100% true but don't forget that most people are happy & lead productive lives & bring up beautiful family's unlike the secular world that cheating & changing marriges like I change my socks

First of all, I applaud VIN for finally thinking long and hard about how they go about bringing up a sensitive subject instead of just blabbing it out like it is some right because it was news already.

For those who are criticizing Rabbi Tendler for his fowardness and the news article in general...get your head out of the sand. Of course most Chasidic marriages work, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a major issue in the community that must be addressed. The first step to taking care of it is awareness.

It is a process that has been gone through many times in the Yeshivishe velt (kids at risk, drug issues, abuse...), the process has just been slower to come to the Chasidishe velt and unfortunately this is the one that has been made public.

Don't be critical, see if there is a way you can help!!

61

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:21 AM Anonymous Says:

I realy thing if VIN brings this on there news, there are the the same to blame for it, its should not be on the news that most are not intrest and mabey even if only 1% will follow there steps because of VIN they should be shamed

62

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:19 AM Anonymous Says:

I don't think you should post the link to the story. If the tv channel sees that it gets a lot of hits, they'll think people are interested in these kinds of stories on our community and they'll want to do more stories!

63

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:11 AM MOSHE IN BP Says:

Please complain to CBSTV ITS A CHUTZPAH THAT THEY HAVE TO AIR THIS.
The amount of frum yidden involved in this depraved behavior is so small. Why do they have to air this. http://wcbstv.com/contact

64

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:11 AM A Yid Says:

the whole story is bouges!!!!!!! Y don't they have a Yossi who is still in the community?????? they only quote a yossi a DropOut a Bum!!!!!! who in any case does what he wants !!!! don't get onfused

F A C T !!!!!!
in ONE and ONLY community with the least Devorses in the Chasidic community

65

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:30 AM אברמ'לה Says:

More likely extra-marrital affairs are likely to be with someone outside the community or even with a non-Jew, from experiences I encountered with colleagues. Chizuk of our beautiful family values is the most powerful educational tool!

66

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:11 AM Anonymous Says:

What about the successful marriages you se me and my friends only dated girls like leah back in the day most of my friends who married girls like that are single today and empty I think the successful ones which is by far a higher percentage live more meaningfull lives

67

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:56 AM Williamsburger Says:

Oi Shoin Veiter with Tendler!!! wasn't Metzitza B'Pah enough to fight Yiddishkeit???
& regarding this issue: there are DROP-OUTS in every community!!! B"H we don't have a lot of them! it was always bad apples & it'll always be!!!
we have to pray to G-D for a good future & Nachas of our Kinderlach.

68

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:50 AM Anonymous Says:

I would suggest mothers talkin to their daughters and giving them their undying LOVE. Their children should know they can talk to their parents so that they don't run to the outside world first. Love your kids attend to them--not their clothes ONLY. They need to know they can come to YOU with ALL their questions, whether it is in Emunah or in questions about Love and Marriage. Be there for them. Bake one cake less, buy one dress less, and hear and see what and who they are and how YOU as a parent can help them out. They need to feel an unconditional Love from their parents to feel safe in their environment.

69

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #63  
MOSHE IN BP Says:

Please complain to CBSTV ITS A CHUTZPAH THAT THEY HAVE TO AIR THIS.
The amount of frum yidden involved in this depraved behavior is so small. Why do they have to air this. http://wcbstv.com/contact

Dont complain be proud of this report they caught a few rotten apples out of million of pure and clean once. its only expresess our good. lets be proud of the report. we allways knew that this problem is amoung us -its called yetzer hora. he has been with us and will and the small pcercentwill allways rot.

70

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:56 AM Anonymous Says:

I know I'm way down on the comment list but I hope its stil read. from my "own experience" I can tell u there is "only one" problem, but a major one in chasidic comm. and that is,the way that some kids, because of a minor glitch, become a door mat and a fun outlet for every one including rabbis, peers, neighbors and yes some times there own family this although may seem minor because "why not" he's a geek, remember its stil a neshuma that cries inside but helpless in his present stage but it has a lasting effect with toughts or redemption and revenge like u see now. its just "the chickens coming home to roost". now let's be mekabel to change this once and for all. thank you

71

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Beware: This problem is NOT a symptom .it’s the opposite such a report is not alarming it’s only great and should make us all very very proud. It shows how small the problem is. It points out the purity and holiness and the separation from our nation over others. So we have a small percent of people who have this problem. Let tell me you something this problem always exists and was always among us and will always exist and be among us. (We have a yetzer hora) the fact that Media outlets, have to report this as an exclusive headline shows that its very rear in the community. By other nation it’s the opposite and maybe they could write a report that s mall pct from them are clean and don’t have this issue .because the other 95pct does hve this issue and cheat 1 on other. Let’s not worry about this report lets be proud of it. “Who is like god only 1 nation.” Omen

To the editor I know this is hot topic for you but would should look with a right eye on a positive way.

72

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:51 AM Kiruv Says:

I happen to be slightly involved in "kiruv keroivim", I had the opportunity several times to bring back (at least in part) some troubled women out of their despair and distress.
As of my experience, the 2 most complicated cases were:
1) was a fine girl grew up in a warm fine home with loving parents, she just got "married" to the internet! even after she has done a good shiduch and married a super yungerman, she would still stay in the office 2-3 hrs 'overtime' to watch inappropriate material, it was a real addiction, it was eating sleeping and the internet. when things got so bad she was about to divorce (understandably, her husband literally had no wife..) some experts came into the picture to get to the root of the problem, at one point she just opened her heart to me and cried her breath out for nearly 2 hours, with such remorse and blame on herself how she allowed herself to get so carried away from this planet. now a few years later, after a lot of help was to her assistance, and they are a very happy couple.
2) was a young woman, 2 shiduchim were on the board when she had to make a decision, her father explained to her, that one of them M. was very good looking and handsome, but the people around him claim he has no manners, no middos and a bad attitude. on the other hand was J. also a cute boy, but not so tall and handsome as M. but with exceptional middos and very well mannered. she decided on M. she fell for his looks. right after the 'honey moon' ended, the storm started she suffered and didn't talk about it.. she was ashamed to complain to her parents, because they advised her differently before doing the shidduch. instead she started glitching off the derech, and that was so complicated, she felt like a total flop, after a few years of leading a secular life as a "single mom" she became so miserable, and then she started coming back, she's getting a tremendous amount of love of the people here, and she's now settling nicely back in her old community.
I think those stories speak for themselves.

73

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AGREE! every single day on the headlines 'Man kills girl friend' 'Mother kills her son' So who out there is not happy.... ?

74

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:04 AM Anonymous Says:

Mind our own business...Take care of your own home and don't Mind your Neighbors business

75

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:09 AM Avrohom Abba Says:

At the end of the day, if you add up all the problems CBS revealed, it is actually a good report (even though CBS hopes it was bad and controversial). Good? Yes, because any honest observer will notice that we have far fewer incidents of this rebel behavior than other communities. Just by watching their attempt at showing us to be like all others, one can see that we are not.
CBS is like a show off bad boy in the class; all he wants is attention even if it means taking it away from others. Guess what CBS? It is YOU who are trying to break away from YOUR community of gossipers and aggitators. While trying to put down the Chasisdim, you showed the public where you're at; down in the mud of spreading bad gosip, hearsay and innuendo. Go look for the next community you will try to besmirch and slander. Bye bye CBS, we will go on and deal with our problems, BUT we are proud to also deal with our overwhelmingly good and sweet attributes and especially with our happier way of life than yours.

76

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

There are many ultra orthodox/ and chasidish men women and children who fantisize about what the outside secular world has to offer from which they've been sheltered from - Thank G-d! I've never left my orthodox life but I did have a chance to get very close to the secular world during a period of my life where I was working as an actress for television. I will tell you all - IT IS A WORLD OF LIES, FILTH, IMMORALALITY AND SADNESS. ALL THOSE GLITZY, FAMOUS, JEWELED HOLLYWOOD MILLIONAIRES ARE THE BIGGEST LIE EVER. THEY ARE ACTUALLY MISERABLE, DEPRESSED ALCHOHOLICS AND SUICIDAL. i'VE MET MANY OF THEM AND I WAS NOT IMPRESSED WITH EVEN ONE. IF YOU ARE CHASIDIC/ ORTHODOX THANK HASHEM EVERY DAY THAT YOU WERE FORTUNATE TO BE BORN OR BROUGHT UP AS A PRACTICING JEW. ASK HASHEM TO HELP YOU THROUGH DIFFICULT TIMES OR PAINFUL CHALLANGES IN YOUR LIFE. GOING OUT TO THE SECULAR WORLD WILL NEVER BRING YOU TRUE HAPPINES. REACHING OUT TO HELP OTHERS DURING YOUR OWN PAINFUL EXPERIENCES CAN ACTULALLY HELP YOU GET THROUGH YOUR OWN ISSUES. WHEN A TEENAGER OR GROWNUP MAKES A DECISION TO LEAVE HIS TORAH VALUES TO GET EVEN WITH
G-D, IT'S ALMOST AS IF A LITTLE CHILD THROWS A LITTLE PLUSH TOY AT HIS MOMMY OR TATTY AND SAYS " I'M POTCHING YOU!" HASHEM IS SO SO SO SO SO BIG THAT HE IS ABLE TO CARRY THE PAIN AND THE PROBLEMS OF THE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF ALL PEOOPLE IN THE WORLD. IF ONLY WE TURN TO HASHEM AND ASK HIM IF WE COULD CRY ON HIS SHOULDER AND ASK HIM TO CARRY US EVEN THOUGH WE ARE CRYING FROM HIS PUNISHMENTS AND SCOLDINGS. JUST HOLD UP YOUR HANDS AND CRY, HASHEM, I DON'T WANT ANYONE ELSE TO HELP ME. I ONLY WANT MY TATTY/MOMMY - OF COURSE MEANING HASHEM! IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO FIX THINGS. DO YOU REALLY THNK THAT YOUR AVAIRA ( SIN ) IS TOO BIG FOR HASHEM? YOU COULD HAVE DONE THE WORST AVAIRA IN THE WORLD BUT OUR WONDERFUL KING OF KINGS IS WAITING PATIENTLY FOR US TO COME TO COME BACK TO HIM. WHY DO SO MANY SINNERS COME BACK TO HASHEM? BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW THE TORAH SAYS THAT THE JEWS THAT HASHEM LOVES DEARLY ARE THE ONES WHO MADE A MISTAKE AND THEN CAME BACK. THEY ARE CONSIDERED OUR GREATEST TZADIKIM. DON'T BE AFRAID- MEN WOMEN, TEENAGERS, PLEASE COME HOME!!!!!!! WE LOVE YOU!!!!! REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEYIDIDUS, JUST A REGULAR MOTHER IN THE JEWISH NATION. P.S. IF YOU COME BACK TO TORAH AND THEN, BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS, SOMEONE ELSE FOLLOWS Y OUR PATH AS WELL, YOU CAN NOT IMAGINE YOUR LEVEL OF GREATNESS IN THE EYES OF HASHEM. SEE YOU IN YERUSHALAYIM AT THE GEULAH- VERY SOON IY"H.

WOW, So nice of you, may Hashem bless you in all your ways,

77

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

no one understands the people who go of the way they were raised until they are in there shoes. no one should judge them. for cbs to do this story is pathetic. they could of as much done a story on the arabs and muslims who are also very strict in there religion. i just wish everyone will watch what they writes as to make sure this post wont turn into a big chillul hashem since not only jews read this site. one note if i can: can people please spell check before writing . i am sometimes so embarrased by the spelling mistakes people make its pathetic.

YOU!! forgot yout capitajs

78

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Everyone is so busy saying we are better than them, our rate of rebels is lower, etc. That ignores the point. Even if only 5% are in unhappy marriages and are having affairs, that is too high. That translates to a lot of miserable people with a lot of children who can't help but be affected by their parents' loneliness, anger, lack of true intimacy with their spouse, etc. Since we can learn something from everything, let's ask what we can learn from this show. A few quick suggestions concern the Shidduch process. Perhaps there should be a minimum of three or four dates. Perhaps a trusted older individual should privately question the prospective Kallah and Choson as to whether they are really attracted to the other person, can envision living together forever, etc. Let's also have more classes about intimacy and how to build an intimate relationship. Just hearing about the mechanics right before the Chupah doesn't give the tools to build a loving marriage.

79

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:19 AM Anonymous Says:

It's not true that our children have no say if they want to marry him/her. Every parent asks their child before the shidduch is final if it's a yes or no. True, they really don't 'know' their future spouse well enough to decide, but at least they can say YES or NO!. So don't go blaming the parents for FORCING their child into a marriage they didnt want in the first place. The internet plays a tremedous role in todays extra marrital affairs, so does the cellphone ( text msging ) Plenty marriages have been ruined because of that. Many marriages could've been helped if they'd go for help before it becomes out of control. It seems fooling around is the easy way out, but in the long run EVERYBODY suffers in the end, especially if there are children involved. I know.....my daughter was a victim...

80

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

It's not true that our children have no say if they want to marry him/her. Every parent asks their child before the shidduch is final if it's a yes or no. True, they really don't 'know' their future spouse well enough to decide, but at least they can say YES or NO!. So don't go blaming the parents for FORCING their child into a marriage they didnt want in the first place. The internet plays a tremedous role in todays extra marrital affairs, so does the cellphone ( text msging ) Plenty marriages have been ruined because of that. Many marriages could've been helped if they'd go for help before it becomes out of control. It seems fooling around is the easy way out, but in the long run EVERYBODY suffers in the end, especially if there are children involved. I know.....my daughter was a victim...

Yes, but for the "right" to say yes or no to be meaningful, the child must know that it's truly ok to say "no" and not feel pressured to say "yes" because of parental expectations or because they are getting too old or don't want to disappoint the family. They also should know its ok to change their mind. We also should think about the age of marriage. The Leah in the show was only 17 when married. That's rather young to be able to make an informed decision that affects someone for the rest of their life.

81

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
MS Says:

Yossi's english is remarkably accent-free for someone who was supposedly raised Hassiddic. It sure sounds that English (and not Yiddish) was his first language -- and a midwestern English at that.

As for the special report, I'm surprised to know that two individuals constitute a trend.

His voice was digitally altered.

82

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #37  
Get a Life! Says:

We've got swingers! Ta-Da! Who would have thought? Actually the more erudite readers of VinNews would be aware there is no shortage of exotic stories detailed in various responsa. Though many of them are so "rich" as to be beyond the imagination of Hollywood's ablest writers, there is only the halachic discussion - one almost never sees the moaning and yelping about how did it happen, or what went wrong with the education system. Even if the best minds of the last five thousand years should join together and form the perfect Utopian society, human nature will still not fail to lay their plans to waste. This story is simply about human nature doing it's thing, or as the saying goes "move along folks, nothing to see here."

What was interesting was Rabbi Tendler's comments. I guess my opinion of him has moved up from 0 to 1. Our much-touted Shidduch modus operandi may be the pious way of getting hitched, but that does not mean it is the only legitimate way of going about it. Expecting everyone to go through the Shidduch system is sort of the same as demanding everyone donate the optimal fifth of their income to tzedokoh. It is the good and pious thing to do, but we can be more than happy if everyone gives "just" ma'aser, without having to label them as "chilled" or "modern" because they "only" followed halochoh instead of making sure to copy the chumros being done by everyone around them. In those cases where we in the frum world tried to practice "institutionalized Lifnim Mishuras HaDin" - i.e the Shidduch system and the Kolel system- pretty much all we accomplished was losing touch entirely with the very thing we were trying to accomplish. We need to be a touch more honest and relaxed, and tell our kids that its okay to ask out directly a girl who caught their interest for a date, so long as they are serious and not meeting for fun, though they can expect much better results with the shidduch system. We can be honest about the advantages of the Shidduch system without ramming it down anybody's throat.

The same holds true about Kollel. If we really possessed that sense of honesty we claim to bear, we would be able to tell our young men and women about the greatness of a life dedicated to Torah, but without making them feel compelled to adopt it. I get the feeling that the people propagating this culture, have some inner doubts of what they preaching, and are therefore compelled to take the element of choice out of the picture.

nicely said.

83

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:54 AM Expatriate Owl Says:

"Secondly, VIN News calls for an organized, rational community-wide response by our finest mental-health minds."


Seems that whenever our "finest mental health minds" get recruited, they back out on account of threats to them and their families.

84

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:13 AM YOELY Says:

Like searching for a needle in a haystack - they found 2 people who engaged in such things. I'm sure if they searched harder they may find 100.

99% of Yiddin lead proper lives in respect to these things.

If it were common it wouldn't be news.

85

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Why do they always have to mention a lack of knowledge and education. Leah says "she didn't know how to write a check". Being a teacher, I know that writing a check is part of accounting or economics or whatever subject your school wants to call it - but it definitely gets covered once in high school - if not more. Besides, that's what parents are for, if your kid doesn't know how to write a check you teach him/her.

Gitty (forgot her last name - from the summer story) also didn't stop complaining that she didn't know what certain things were (shrimp, certain history facts). Well, that's just ignorance, or a lack of smartness. Some things your taught in school and others you pick up.


Communication, that's what a lot of people are missing and blaming everyone and everything for their problems. People have to learn to communicate with parents, spouse, children, teachers, students, bosses etc. The need to feel wanted, everyone wants to feel needed, looked upon.


I was engaged and got married very young and have been married for many years BH. Age isn't so much the issue, as much as the maturity of the person. Knowing a person before you get engaged or getting to know a person before you get married, really doesn't tell you much about the person until you live with them. (The divorce rate for the secular are much, much higher than those of Chasidishe couples - and not only because divorce might be negatively looked upon)

Someone I know once overhead the following conversation on the Boro Park/ Williamsburg bus. A kallah was telling her friend " my mother said: Chany remember you always have your room here at home".
Yes, you should know that if you have problems that weren't solved after discussing it with your spouse - not just that you didn't like the outcome - then your mother is there for you to help. But not that you can just take the easy way out and just go home.

Love is something that doesn't happen overnight. You must work on it, and only then does it last a lifetime. Love at first sight is a goyishe myth that even the goyim admit rarely truly happens. (Most of them are divorced - if they bothered to get married or aren't together anymore within time)

86

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:33 AM TorahTruth Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

It's not true that our children have no say if they want to marry him/her. Every parent asks their child before the shidduch is final if it's a yes or no. True, they really don't 'know' their future spouse well enough to decide, but at least they can say YES or NO!. So don't go blaming the parents for FORCING their child into a marriage they didnt want in the first place. The internet plays a tremedous role in todays extra marrital affairs, so does the cellphone ( text msging ) Plenty marriages have been ruined because of that. Many marriages could've been helped if they'd go for help before it becomes out of control. It seems fooling around is the easy way out, but in the long run EVERYBODY suffers in the end, especially if there are children involved. I know.....my daughter was a victim...

Sorry to hear that this has affected you personally and I hope things improve. To say that the internet or cell phones is the "cause" is like saying the gun is the problem not the person who pulled the trigger. The internet and cell phones are the tools but the problem is evaluation of our values, and not having the tools to be selective. We can't hide from every advance in society, we need to train our children how to accept what is good and how to reject what is no good. When we reject everything we actually make the problem worse.

87

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:27 AM TorahTruth Says:

I will start by apologizing for this long post and would appreciate only mature responses as this is a very serious and sensitive issue as was pointed out in the article. There are two very distinct issues though they may be inter-related. The first issue is the approach to dating and marriage and the second is the isolated nature of the Chasidic and Frum world today. There is a real issue with our approach to dating and marriage in some communities. I will start with marriage. The idea of marriage has been so degraded and debased in our generation that I almost don't recognize it anymore. I am coming at this topic as a husband, father, father-in-law, grand-father, and as someone that works with kids at risk, though not my main vocation. The purpose of a Jewish marriage is to build a Jewish family with Jewish values. The Shidduch environment has become a financial transaction. This is not limited to the Chasidic world! The primary focus is Yichus and money and in the Yeshiva world it is Yichus, money, and the best learner in Kollel. The focus on "compatibility", "Middos Tovos", and "shared values" are glossed over if examined at all. I B"H have be Zocheh to have extraordinary children and children-in-law, who don't "come from" money or status. I told my children when they were dating that the only thing that matters is a Bal / Ballas Middos. If someone have Middos Tovos everything else will fall into place. I leave it for every community Rav to determine the best way to find a mate but I will tell you that there are many Gedolei Yisrael that have said that a Shidduch should "not" go forward before 10 dates. In fact I remember when the Satmar Rav ZT"L complained to Rav Bick ZT"L who advocated a 10 date policy, Rav Bick said Satmar Rav, you deal with Shtarei Kesubah, I have to deal with Shtarei Gittin too! We need to reevaluate who we are bas Benai and Benos Torah, our purpose in life, our purpose in marriage, and our purpose in our family.

The other issue is a more general one and one more difficult to address. The Chasidic and Yeshiva approach to the world is one of isolation. Isolation works well when one can remain isolated. In the Shtetil, in Brisk, perhaps in Mea Shearim. In those environments children are raised and live their life without contact with any foreign community or ideas, and for the most part it works well. My friends, this IS NOT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY. Anyone reading this posting has the internet or access to it. No matter how many filters you have you also have access to all the garbage that comes with the internet. "Ain Appitropus LeArayos"! We are not isolated no matter how hard we try. Our children are not isolated no matter how hard we try. We must evaluate our approach to Chinuch and our Hashkafah and see if it is appropriate for the challenges today or if is more appropriate for the challenges that our grandparents had in Europe. We need to give our children options! Options on how to live the live of a Ben Torah and Bas Yisrael while at the same time being part and parcel with the world around us. If we raise our children in a sheltered lifestyle and then one day they enter a world that is open and enticing they will be in great danger unless we give them the tools on how to be SELECTIVE. How to take the Ochel and discard the Pisoles. The answer is not more isolation, the answer is teaching our children what is acceptable and what is not and the value of making the right choice. (See Rav Hirsch, last weeks Parsha VaYigdilu HaNiarim). This doesn't need physiologists or Askanim! This requires reevaluation from the top down, not an easy task but the only option I see.

88

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:56 AM fellow jew Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you r a 100 percent right but one correction not 95 percent but 99
percent good yidden there going to b some yozlins

89

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:09 AM Anonymous Says:

By the way, all this marital unfaithfulness has been going on before cell phones and the internet.The internet and cell phones perhaps facilitate these affairs. It should have been addressed years ago.

90

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:07 AM Jicky Says:

The reason why leah couldnt write a check is because she came from meah sheurim and she did not know english

91

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Why don't they have a story about all the priests who are fathers (real ones, with kids) and pregnant nuns.
bottom line is - before a 17 year old girl or 18 year old boy get married, they should have counseling as to what marriage and commitment is all about and perhaps they should be allowed to meet their prospective spouses for more than 15 minutes (I am sure a lot of them do)

92

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
MARK Says:

NOT BEING A CHUSID................I ENVY THE SUPPORT AND CHESED OF CHASSIDIM........................................ALL THE PROBLEMS ARISE ONLY BECAUSE OF SOME LITTLE REEBELECH THAT USE THEIR RABONIS AS A PERSONAL MONEY MACHINE

"Not being a Chusid" how do you know where all the problems in the chasidesheh velt come from??? How do you know to blame the 'little rebbelach"???

93

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

Look, I personally know many chasidic people who cheat on their wives, although not with other chasidim, but it's cheating nevertheless. Some do it becuase they're not satisfied at home, some because they can and simply won't bother to resist, some because they need it more than others. The point is, there will always be people who do this sort of thing and I don't think there's a damn thing you can do about this. Based on our tradition, there IS no other way but for arranged marriages. And what if it wasn't arranged, do you seriouslly think people would be that much happier? How much can you really know about a person by "formally" meeting with them I don't care how many times? Yes, arranged marriage has a big downside becuase you pair two people who more than often have zero in common, and are not atracted to each other, but really, what is the solution? I don't think there is a realistic one. Rabbi Tendler can say what he wants, do you want to tell me that non-chasidic don't do this sort of stuff? Of course they do! This happens everywhere there are humans. As far as I'm concerned, all this report shows is that yes, we are humans, too, and some of us have temptations and choose not to resist. No biggie.

oh and how may people when out and knew each other inside out and what happend after they got married?????? read the paper every day see 4 urself what happend they knew everything abt each other huh???

94

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

Look, I personally know many chasidic people who cheat on their wives, although not with other chasidim, but it's cheating nevertheless. Some do it becuase they're not satisfied at home, some because they can and simply won't bother to resist, some because they need it more than others. The point is, there will always be people who do this sort of thing and I don't think there's a damn thing you can do about this. Based on our tradition, there IS no other way but for arranged marriages. And what if it wasn't arranged, do you seriouslly think people would be that much happier? How much can you really know about a person by "formally" meeting with them I don't care how many times? Yes, arranged marriage has a big downside becuase you pair two people who more than often have zero in common, and are not atracted to each other, but really, what is the solution? I don't think there is a realistic one. Rabbi Tendler can say what he wants, do you want to tell me that non-chasidic don't do this sort of stuff? Of course they do! This happens everywhere there are humans. As far as I'm concerned, all this report shows is that yes, we are humans, too, and some of us have temptations and choose not to resist. No biggie.

Please define "many".

95

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:16 AM Hashem's daughter Says:

Reply to #32
"They just get married because societies pressure and not because they fall in love."
That is why our frum way of life is so beautiful. When given some time, 1-2 years into their marraige, those that fall in love, fall out of it too!
Having said that I will admit we do have a problem. Until our community will not address the cause of it, we will not see an end to it either.
1) Are our children raised with AHAVAS HASHEM as well as Yiray Hasem.
2)The Torah states that one may not deduct from it, yet the same Torah states that we may not ADD TO IT TOO! Lately it has become a style to add Chumra after Chumra in order to help us shield from outside influences. All is well with Chumras as long as one takes it upon oneself, rather than forcing it down our children's throats. Let the children see and know about the chumras, as they mature they will be able to climb their Ruchnious ladder. But they must know and understand Halacha, I've seen too many times that once the kids have questions, disappointments, issues etc. and they realize that much was shoved down their throats, so to speak, they throw off not only the Chumras but the Halachas as well.
3)Marraige can be beautilfull and fulfilling if it is taught the Torahdiga way. Too many times our young enters marraige with unrealistic standards, with Chumras attached, that are much higher than the Torah requests. By having one spouse not fullfilled, the consequences can be very detrimental, not only to the marraige, but to the kids at home. Again, not everyone can live by the same standards.
4) Girls are taught alot in our schools, and they are spoken to about the beauty and reward of Kollel life. (I'm not saying that one should not go to Kollel, but rather once again not everyone can live up to the same standards) Should her spouse want to go to work, she will disrespect him and start finding fault in other areas as well. Isn't it a mitzvah to bring home prnasah as well?
I can go on and on but rather cut it now simply because I have no time. Just one more message, WE HAVE ALOT OF OUR OWN OUT THERE, HURTING some you may see and pick up and some that are hurting silently. PLEASE REACH OUT TO ALL OF OUR CHILDREN, A GOOD WARM WORD WITH A SMILE NEVER CAUSED ANY HARM, DON'T WAITE UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

96

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:

PSYCHIATRIC PROBLEMS are not acknowledged in the frum world. When will we come to the realization that the brain is a complex and beautiful wonder of Hashem's creation. Just as the liver, kidney or heart can be sick and need medication to regain health, so, too, the brain can suffer from a chemical imbalance. What is the shame if someone is sick from the neck up or the neck down? If he doesn't get the help he needs, he will be drawn towards his yetzer hara & not be able to develop his potential. Sickness of the mind is infinitely more critical to address. Whereas, you would not ask someone with a broken leg to run a marathon (since you can see that he is handicapped), you cannot expect someone with a broken mind (chemical imbalance in the brain) to act & react appropriately or be successful in life.

97

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:12 AM Jellow Says:

Reply to #1  
A.B.K Says:

Gun to my head, I could be a witness how true and how right they are...

You are screwed up!

98

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Hudy Says:

Looking for greener pasture in forbidden territory will not make them happy for too long. At the end of the day they all regret it and would love to go back home. But then it’s too late. These people need psychiatric help for their temporary pleasure-seeking and stupidities.

You remind me of the famous story told about the Kotzker Rebbeh, ZTZ"L, ZY"A.

A man came in to report that Chaim (or Moishe, or whatever name you like) has gone meshugah! He is dancing with shiksas and eating chazer!

The Kotzker Rebbeh said no, he is not meshugah, he is a choiteh. If he was dancing with pigs and eating shiksas then he would be crazy!

So please stop trying to make the whole frum world look so perfect that the only reason someone goes off the derech is because of mental illness.

99

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:19 AM Anonymous Says:

nice editorial piece, we are finally getting educated, A major problem in our community is that leadership has been hijacked by the extreme and they institute fatwas to there extreme views and if you don't adhere you will be shamed and we the ball batishe, just sit there and frozen with fear to respond to this Isrealy style frum terror...we need a hero to stop this or we will be lost, the outside world offers much better opportunities then someone with short pants, doesn't work, brush his teeth, and has no education what so ever how to understand social issues, in my view there are any different then the taliban,
-Moshe

100

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:10 AM Anonymous Says:

What strikes me is the lack of responsibility for their actions. It's not their fault that they are immoral, it's everybody else's fault. Let's face it, these two are selfish lowlives. They destroy their families for the sake of a few cheap thrills & they destroy them even more by going on TV. You think everyone who knows them isn't buzzing about this today?

Their parents, siblings, & children are now destroyed. Can you imagine Yossi's kids going to school today? Or Leah's? How many parents are going to encourage their children NOT to play with these innocent victims (it's not right, but it's going to happen.) I know I wouldn't let my child go to Leah's kids' home if they live with her (I couldn't get what she did with her kids; did she leave them too?)

Divorce is a tragedy for everyone, but to have the whole world know about it makes it a shanda. I didn't see the report but I read the transcript. It will not have a happy ending for anyone & doesn't make the healthy, responsible, family-minded Frum Jew look any better either.

101

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:59 AM JICKY Says:

The reason why leah couldnt write a check is because she comes from meah sheurim and did not know english till after her wedding

102

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Many women go off the derech or cheat on their husbands cause all them men do is wake up socialize in shul 3 times a day work and feed their internet addiction. The minute they walk into the house they are on the computer and if woman and children to do not exist in his home. Maybe ask her how was her day? Do you need help? Want to talk? chill?

103

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

I've heard of voice filters, but how'd they remove the Chassidishe accent in the news video?!

104

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:49 AM inquisitive Says:

What does "Frum" mean???

and why is it always to cover the problem as "chasidim", it's like lhvdl the "N" word.
the fact that this issue is known, as "Ain opetrupes l'aroiyis".
implies to each and everyone,there are no exemtions, but to fight with your
yetzer horah, and not commit the sin, that is why you are in this world.

also remember yossi, that when hashem gave the torah we took upon
to follow the 613 mitzvohs,(to break it down, 248 do's and 367 dont's)
so it's not your choice to live the life you want.
it is either you do mitzvahs and get rewarded,
or avairos and get punished.
having relations with a married women /Men is a transgress.
which does not allow the women to live with her husband anymore.
and even if she gets divorced she is not permitted to marry you.
p.s. please be aware that the time has come and hashem is looking for his
people to whom he can redmept very soon.
when moshiach will be here the doors of teshuvah will slam shut and you will
be left behind forever.
please remember you still have time for teshuvah.


105

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:42 AM Anonymous Says:

# 85 says "Love is something that doesn't happen overnight. You must work on it, and only then does it last a lifetime. Love at first sight is a goyishe myth."
Love at first sight may be a myth, but love before marriage, and certainly before having children is no myth. Some frum jews pretend its a myth to justify not letting young people get to know each other more before deciding to marry and start a family.

106

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:42 AM Babishka Says:

This is nothing new. What's the big surprise? Orthodox people are still people and they struggle with the same temptations as everybody else.

107

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:39 AM Anonymous Says:

It is because most frum men know their wives have no where to go with their kids so they act like a-holes and don't work on marriage. It is very sad that most men act like bucherim in yeshiva towards their wives with no respect, love etc.

working hard on parnusah all day gives men no reason to take care of their wives otherwise i.e. emotional support, communication, date nights or even simple help. If you're not attracted to your wife then divorce her and if you don't want to cause you got kids then to bad for you. Maybe you look in the mirror and check out your own looks. Men cheat cause they want the hot looking women oh please have you taken a good look at your long beard and big belly?

108

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:29 AM Anonymous Says:

ok. Great advertisement for footsteps. If that is what this was supposed to do, they did it well. And by the way, can anyone tell me the divorce, and/or Affair rate in the ouside world?

109

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #41  
Hudy Says:

You write: “Let's not judge them. Try to imagine the pain of being locked into a loveless never-ending awful relationship - it could drive anyone over the edge.”
That’s why the Torah gives the full right for a Jewish man or woman to divorce and find themselves a spouse to their liking. If they can do it legally, there’s no reason they should look for shmutz elsewhere and bring mamzerim into the world and go off the derech.

A right that many botai din have taken away from half of all married people.

Maybe try fixing the krum velt of botai din and to'anim and see if things change.

110

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Just would like to state that I am personally aware of a situation where a friend of mine strayed many years ago off the derech with a non Jewish woman. He rationalized it by listing the stresses his wife was causing him.by being non supportive, etc etc. Truth is HE WAS WRONG. But he is human like the rest of us and he does have a very difficult spouse. He did stop it though.
My point is that we have to understand the underlying causes for this behaviour. If it is stam a yetzer harah at work is one thing. If it is some sort of reactive behaviour to a stressful situation is another.
Although nothing justifies the actual behaviour ,we as a klall have to implement relationship courses for prospective couples and probably make it mandatory. We have to face the fact that today's generation, even within the Chassidic community, have totally different expectations as compared to their elders. It is very much a "me" generation.
I believe I heard it said over in the name of the Meshech Chochmah that a person who indulges in this type of behavior will have neither an Olan Hazeh or an Olam Habaah.
My friend certainly can testify to that. He subsequently regretted every minute that he spent in this behaviour and to this day is totally miserable about it.

111

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:32 AM Anonymous Says:

These 2 individuals really do not belong in this feature, because the feature was all about cheating WITHIN the community. These 2 people have obviously left the community, so they don't belong in this at all.

112

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:50 AM nchemyefarnuminer Says:

the reason for low divorse rate is 1)stigma and shame how many people are going through gehenim but cannot divorcebecause of fear & shame 2)they can't do it to the children!!!

113

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
Anonymous Says:

I would suggest mothers talkin to their daughters and giving them their undying LOVE. Their children should know they can talk to their parents so that they don't run to the outside world first. Love your kids attend to them--not their clothes ONLY. They need to know they can come to YOU with ALL their questions, whether it is in Emunah or in questions about Love and Marriage. Be there for them. Bake one cake less, buy one dress less, and hear and see what and who they are and how YOU as a parent can help them out. They need to feel an unconditional Love from their parents to feel safe in their environment.

Better yet: Bake one MORE cake but do it TOGETHER. Buy one MORE dress but do it TOGETHER.

114

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Vos iz neias: why do u need to to pull our eyes in that direction?!
do you take it on your shoulders that because you brought this news to our attention, that some yiden might get "ungeshtekt" with "feigelech" in kop?!
think about it!

if this is all it takes to get us ungestheck were in serious trouble. I would hope our core beleifs and values make us stronger then that. i see this as a wake up call to do something.

115

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

1)the percentege of unhappy marriges in ths seculer world is much more, 2) if your lookink for help there are places you can get it
so don't blame the chasidic lifstyle

Your first point doesn't hold water. We are not judged against what the outside world does. We are judged based on what we are and what we should be and what we do and what we should do.

116

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:43 AM Hindy Says:

Many Rabbonim who have no idea how to deal with people and understand problems will just scream INTERNET! This is an easy cop out.
A real Rav will be able to comunicate to his people and make them understand the basic foundations of a Yiddishe home. Internet can be dangerous but a decayed neshoma will stray with or without internet.

117

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #87  
TorahTruth Says:

I will start by apologizing for this long post and would appreciate only mature responses as this is a very serious and sensitive issue as was pointed out in the article. There are two very distinct issues though they may be inter-related. The first issue is the approach to dating and marriage and the second is the isolated nature of the Chasidic and Frum world today. There is a real issue with our approach to dating and marriage in some communities. I will start with marriage. The idea of marriage has been so degraded and debased in our generation that I almost don't recognize it anymore. I am coming at this topic as a husband, father, father-in-law, grand-father, and as someone that works with kids at risk, though not my main vocation. The purpose of a Jewish marriage is to build a Jewish family with Jewish values. The Shidduch environment has become a financial transaction. This is not limited to the Chasidic world! The primary focus is Yichus and money and in the Yeshiva world it is Yichus, money, and the best learner in Kollel. The focus on "compatibility", "Middos Tovos", and "shared values" are glossed over if examined at all. I B"H have be Zocheh to have extraordinary children and children-in-law, who don't "come from" money or status. I told my children when they were dating that the only thing that matters is a Bal / Ballas Middos. If someone have Middos Tovos everything else will fall into place. I leave it for every community Rav to determine the best way to find a mate but I will tell you that there are many Gedolei Yisrael that have said that a Shidduch should "not" go forward before 10 dates. In fact I remember when the Satmar Rav ZT"L complained to Rav Bick ZT"L who advocated a 10 date policy, Rav Bick said Satmar Rav, you deal with Shtarei Kesubah, I have to deal with Shtarei Gittin too! We need to reevaluate who we are bas Benai and Benos Torah, our purpose in life, our purpose in marriage, and our purpose in our family.

The other issue is a more general one and one more difficult to address. The Chasidic and Yeshiva approach to the world is one of isolation. Isolation works well when one can remain isolated. In the Shtetil, in Brisk, perhaps in Mea Shearim. In those environments children are raised and live their life without contact with any foreign community or ideas, and for the most part it works well. My friends, this IS NOT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY. Anyone reading this posting has the internet or access to it. No matter how many filters you have you also have access to all the garbage that comes with the internet. "Ain Appitropus LeArayos"! We are not isolated no matter how hard we try. Our children are not isolated no matter how hard we try. We must evaluate our approach to Chinuch and our Hashkafah and see if it is appropriate for the challenges today or if is more appropriate for the challenges that our grandparents had in Europe. We need to give our children options! Options on how to live the live of a Ben Torah and Bas Yisrael while at the same time being part and parcel with the world around us. If we raise our children in a sheltered lifestyle and then one day they enter a world that is open and enticing they will be in great danger unless we give them the tools on how to be SELECTIVE. How to take the Ochel and discard the Pisoles. The answer is not more isolation, the answer is teaching our children what is acceptable and what is not and the value of making the right choice. (See Rav Hirsch, last weeks Parsha VaYigdilu HaNiarim). This doesn't need physiologists or Askanim! This requires reevaluation from the top down, not an easy task but the only option I see.

I agree with this post whole-heartedly. The importance of giving choice cannot be stressed enough. "The Torah was not given to Malachim" - this means that there is room for learning and making mistakes - including making wrong choices. As long as one is growing and continuing on an upward trajectory, I believe that it was the Torah expects. By trying to isolate and removing choice, that is just a recipe for rebelliousness that goes beyond the pale of a mistake or slip here and there and for many people, particularly those who end up with rebelliousness in which something like the internet becomes addicitive or other factors, is something from which they cannot recover.

118

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

I am a kollel guy and although i don't know to which extent this actually exists what i do know is that this problem is there in potential.Of the conversations i had with so many friends who don't have internet access and they tell a story so similar to that of Yossi's and leah's tells me that we could be having many more of these stories in the future heaven forbid.The way we handle shiduchim is definitely part of the problem even if we were to agree that the chasidish way is correct.How many people do we know that make their childrens shiduchim to benefit themselves more than their kids?! for honor,for money and so forth.Our tradition never had it to force our kids into unhappy marriages that benefit ourselves! Another factor is sadly some of the leaders who we follow,how can our children be happy with the spouses they get when they know that the rebbe or roshyeshiva is looking for his son the most beautiful girl and from the richest family?! Perhaps if they would set the guidelines of qualities to look for in a spouse our children would be happy with what we found them!And all the above goes with saying that we are causing our own problems to a certain degree,if our daughters go out in the streets dressed the way we are sadly getting accustomed to how is possible for yungeleit to stay happy with their wives?! This article hits us full force and is a bleeding cry to wake up and be aware of our wrong actions and attitutes that are taking their toll on the community with interest. May Hashem have mercy and give up another chance...

I believe you are the first kollel yungerman I've ever met who describes himself as a 'kollel guy' so I didn't bother reading the rest of what you wrote and I'd advise everyone else to consider carefully if whatever you wrote was written by someone who spends his days immersed in torah. Besides, if you are a 'kollel guy' what the heck are you doing on the internet? Does your roish kollel know you have internet in your home and have nothing better to do than read and comment on VIN? (Bad enough we learner/earners have so much time for the 'net.)

119

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Why do they have to change their voices and blurr their faces? If they are not ashamed to come out in public and bash the yiddishe community for their own problems that they can't deal with then why didn't they come out full faced? Going off the derech and adulturating will not make them happier. Open your eyes to the goyishe world and see how many single mothers are out there homeless and on drugs. Are they happy? Ask any goy how many times they were married. How many get killed just for cheating. We are hashem's chosen for a reason. We haveto live up to our standards.
I hope these lunatics will find better things to do in life as to blame everybody for their problems.

120

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:38 AM JICKY Says:

All BS you can be a frum ehrliche happy yid dosent matter what you wear and were you belong you can make life so happy ...i dont see the rich famous hollywood actors staying to long with their spouses they are depressed and dont know what to do with their lives crazy like meshuge ..some people need help ? Yes...but to say in the frum world they need more help then in the secular BELOGNA dont even mention it there are normal people all over some settle by 25 and some by 35 and some by 40 but evreybody wants a happy yidishe warm family and this people who go off the derech are not happy either way proof it for yourself guys

121

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:38 AM mewhoze Says:

please email channel 2 news and ask them when they will be doing a similar expose on the christians, protestants, hindus, buddists etc. the only thing that the non jewish world saw from this broadcast was the opportunity for more anti semitism.
boycott channel 2 and any of their subsidiaries.

122

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:36 AM Anonymous Says:


NY Times article April 19, 2005 saying divorce rate is not really 50 percent as said, but they say it is about 41%.

Also note the report says Hasidic, but the people they interview are from footsteps and not even frum. NoW I DO NOT say there is no problem out there, but the people reporting have an agenda.

123

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:05 AM duh Says:

Reply to #122  
Anonymous Says:


NY Times article April 19, 2005 saying divorce rate is not really 50 percent as said, but they say it is about 41%.

Also note the report says Hasidic, but the people they interview are from footsteps and not even frum. NoW I DO NOT say there is no problem out there, but the people reporting have an agenda.

they WERE chasidic. the guy in the tv report left the community but is still frum , he was wearing a suede yarmulka

124

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

Look, I personally know many chasidic people who cheat on their wives, although not with other chasidim, but it's cheating nevertheless. Some do it becuase they're not satisfied at home, some because they can and simply won't bother to resist, some because they need it more than others. The point is, there will always be people who do this sort of thing and I don't think there's a damn thing you can do about this. Based on our tradition, there IS no other way but for arranged marriages. And what if it wasn't arranged, do you seriouslly think people would be that much happier? How much can you really know about a person by "formally" meeting with them I don't care how many times? Yes, arranged marriage has a big downside becuase you pair two people who more than often have zero in common, and are not atracted to each other, but really, what is the solution? I don't think there is a realistic one. Rabbi Tendler can say what he wants, do you want to tell me that non-chasidic don't do this sort of stuff? Of course they do! This happens everywhere there are humans. As far as I'm concerned, all this report shows is that yes, we are humans, too, and some of us have temptations and choose not to resist. No biggie.

I basically agree with you but you keep referring to our shidduch process as an "arranged marriage", which its not. It may be an arranged date, where the boy and girl meet, but the marriage only happens if the two young people decide that they want to go further. Noone puts a gun to their heads. If they dont like each other thats the end of it.

125

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #100  
Anonymous Says:

What strikes me is the lack of responsibility for their actions. It's not their fault that they are immoral, it's everybody else's fault. Let's face it, these two are selfish lowlives. They destroy their families for the sake of a few cheap thrills & they destroy them even more by going on TV. You think everyone who knows them isn't buzzing about this today?

Their parents, siblings, & children are now destroyed. Can you imagine Yossi's kids going to school today? Or Leah's? How many parents are going to encourage their children NOT to play with these innocent victims (it's not right, but it's going to happen.) I know I wouldn't let my child go to Leah's kids' home if they live with her (I couldn't get what she did with her kids; did she leave them too?)

Divorce is a tragedy for everyone, but to have the whole world know about it makes it a shanda. I didn't see the report but I read the transcript. It will not have a happy ending for anyone & doesn't make the healthy, responsible, family-minded Frum Jew look any better either.

Yup, here is another good trick to avoid an unpleasent truth. Deny that anyone else had a hand in getting these people to the point where issurai korais are meaningless.

Yup, we in the frum world are perfect so if anyone of our kids strays they are either total resho'im or have gone crazy.

I finally understand why the people on the Titanic didn't want to get in the life boats: They 'knew' that the Titanic was perfect and could not be sunk. Therefore, anyone telling them the ship is taking on water and is going to sink must have been out to hurt them or was crazy.

126

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM kollelGuy Says:

Reply to #118  
Anonymous Says:

I believe you are the first kollel yungerman I've ever met who describes himself as a 'kollel guy' so I didn't bother reading the rest of what you wrote and I'd advise everyone else to consider carefully if whatever you wrote was written by someone who spends his days immersed in torah. Besides, if you are a 'kollel guy' what the heck are you doing on the internet? Does your roish kollel know you have internet in your home and have nothing better to do than read and comment on VIN? (Bad enough we learner/earners have so much time for the 'net.)

number one, the reason i said kollel guy is because i wanted to bring out a point(which i'm sure you would have seen if you would have read the rest of the post!) Number two, i see that you have a bigger problem with kollel people than with people like yossi and leah! set your priorities right,jealous cat!

127

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #91  
Anonymous Says:

Why don't they have a story about all the priests who are fathers (real ones, with kids) and pregnant nuns.
bottom line is - before a 17 year old girl or 18 year old boy get married, they should have counseling as to what marriage and commitment is all about and perhaps they should be allowed to meet their prospective spouses for more than 15 minutes (I am sure a lot of them do)

They do have these stories all the time.

Do you think our friends point out our weaknesses? It is usually people out to hurt us that point out our failures.

Instead of attacking CBS face the problem and deal with it as best we can. (unless you think denial is the best we can do.)

128

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:59 AM chaim Says:

I don't know why you people are making a big deal out of this story. The probblem is a probblem in chasidic community and so evrywhere else. The story was'nt nice but cbs is not here to be nice they reprt intresthing things, very simple. Cbs didn't say that most or a lot people are doing it they said some,which is true. Maby the story will bring some good that our leaders will do somthing about it not just deny it

129

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
Anonymous Says:

By the way, all this marital unfaithfulness has been going on before cell phones and the internet.The internet and cell phones perhaps facilitate these affairs. It should have been addressed years ago.

Anyone who thinks our problms all come from the interent and cell phones and TV and movies and and and...... obviously hasn't spent much time browsing thru the Nodah BeYehudah.

Technology just made sinning easier.

130

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM very happy frum woman Says:

I am hasidic, I live in williamsburg,I got married at 20,and I am very very very happy with my husband that I chose!! Before I met my husband the first time (my parents chose him from a very long list) my parents told me that I can talk to him for a long as I wish and that I do not have to engage him only if I WANT. The minute he walked into bshow (the arrainged meeting for a girl and a boy in the hasidic world) we fell in love. We spoke for an hour, and got engaged the same day. The next time we spoke again was a month later by our engagement party. And the next time we spoke again was 6 months later by our wedding. Now, I did meet him a couple of times during our engagement by weddings etc. but then it was just a smile and hello and thats it. Yes, this is the way MOST of our community practice. But, there are some that talk more often and then there are some that DONT> and probably Leah and Yossi families fall into the latter category.
When I was engaged I used to think all day long of my chosson, I dreamed all night of him too. I was sooo excited to get married, I just couldn't wait to live with him. And yes this is the way I want my kids to follow too.
I have to most wonderful and inimate relationship with the man I love, THE MAN MY PARENTS HELPED ME CHOOSE, the man I prayed for, my partner in life.

131

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM pushiteryid Says:

Reply to #87  
TorahTruth Says:

I will start by apologizing for this long post and would appreciate only mature responses as this is a very serious and sensitive issue as was pointed out in the article. There are two very distinct issues though they may be inter-related. The first issue is the approach to dating and marriage and the second is the isolated nature of the Chasidic and Frum world today. There is a real issue with our approach to dating and marriage in some communities. I will start with marriage. The idea of marriage has been so degraded and debased in our generation that I almost don't recognize it anymore. I am coming at this topic as a husband, father, father-in-law, grand-father, and as someone that works with kids at risk, though not my main vocation. The purpose of a Jewish marriage is to build a Jewish family with Jewish values. The Shidduch environment has become a financial transaction. This is not limited to the Chasidic world! The primary focus is Yichus and money and in the Yeshiva world it is Yichus, money, and the best learner in Kollel. The focus on "compatibility", "Middos Tovos", and "shared values" are glossed over if examined at all. I B"H have be Zocheh to have extraordinary children and children-in-law, who don't "come from" money or status. I told my children when they were dating that the only thing that matters is a Bal / Ballas Middos. If someone have Middos Tovos everything else will fall into place. I leave it for every community Rav to determine the best way to find a mate but I will tell you that there are many Gedolei Yisrael that have said that a Shidduch should "not" go forward before 10 dates. In fact I remember when the Satmar Rav ZT"L complained to Rav Bick ZT"L who advocated a 10 date policy, Rav Bick said Satmar Rav, you deal with Shtarei Kesubah, I have to deal with Shtarei Gittin too! We need to reevaluate who we are bas Benai and Benos Torah, our purpose in life, our purpose in marriage, and our purpose in our family.

The other issue is a more general one and one more difficult to address. The Chasidic and Yeshiva approach to the world is one of isolation. Isolation works well when one can remain isolated. In the Shtetil, in Brisk, perhaps in Mea Shearim. In those environments children are raised and live their life without contact with any foreign community or ideas, and for the most part it works well. My friends, this IS NOT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY. Anyone reading this posting has the internet or access to it. No matter how many filters you have you also have access to all the garbage that comes with the internet. "Ain Appitropus LeArayos"! We are not isolated no matter how hard we try. Our children are not isolated no matter how hard we try. We must evaluate our approach to Chinuch and our Hashkafah and see if it is appropriate for the challenges today or if is more appropriate for the challenges that our grandparents had in Europe. We need to give our children options! Options on how to live the live of a Ben Torah and Bas Yisrael while at the same time being part and parcel with the world around us. If we raise our children in a sheltered lifestyle and then one day they enter a world that is open and enticing they will be in great danger unless we give them the tools on how to be SELECTIVE. How to take the Ochel and discard the Pisoles. The answer is not more isolation, the answer is teaching our children what is acceptable and what is not and the value of making the right choice. (See Rav Hirsch, last weeks Parsha VaYigdilu HaNiarim). This doesn't need physiologists or Askanim! This requires reevaluation from the top down, not an easy task but the only option I see.

Wonderful piece,thanks! Just wanted to add, Don't you think that our Rabbanim are at fault partially? When we see how they do shiduchim for money, yichus (and sadly good looks) what are our children supposed to say?!

132

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

Beware: This problem is NOT a symptom .it’s the opposite such a report is not alarming it’s only great and should make us all very very proud. It shows how small the problem is. It points out the purity and holiness and the separation from our nation over others. So we have a small percent of people who have this problem. Let tell me you something this problem always exists and was always among us and will always exist and be among us. (We have a yetzer hora) the fact that Media outlets, have to report this as an exclusive headline shows that its very rear in the community. By other nation it’s the opposite and maybe they could write a report that s mall pct from them are clean and don’t have this issue .because the other 95pct does hve this issue and cheat 1 on other. Let’s not worry about this report lets be proud of it. “Who is like god only 1 nation.” Omen

To the editor I know this is hot topic for you but would should look with a right eye on a positive way.

History teaches us that societies crumble when they become self-satisfied.

Yes, we are a great nation but we can always be greater. Lets not hide from our problems. Lets face them and fix them.

How many of the cases of child abuse and molestation in our kehilos that we read about today would have happened if fifty years ago the early complaints would have been taken seriously instead of shoving the accusation and the accuser under the carpet and then stepping on them to make sure they stay there?

133

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
אברמ'לה Says:

More likely extra-marrital affairs are likely to be with someone outside the community or even with a non-Jew, from experiences I encountered with colleagues. Chizuk of our beautiful family values is the most powerful educational tool!

A large study a few years ago in eretz yisroel (hashem yishmarainu) showed just the opposite. Most extra-marital affairs between charaidim occur between charaidim.

The study authors concluded that this was because the cheaters were looking for emotional relationships and only could relate to other charaidim.

I personally believe they were looking for 'intimacy' and know that if things ever get nasty between them a married charaidi man or woman will not let the cat out of the bag for revenge. A chiloni might get even by calling the other person's spouse.

134

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #111  
Anonymous Says:

These 2 individuals really do not belong in this feature, because the feature was all about cheating WITHIN the community. These 2 people have obviously left the community, so they don't belong in this at all.

Who put you in charge of the membership cards of the frum community?

By your logic we have no problems ever. Frum people don't cheat in business so if a person cheats in business he is not a frum person. Frum people don't speak lashon horah so anyone who does is not frum.

135

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Why do you thing they went to "Rabbi Tendler" in the first place, they did not come to a Chasidishe Rabbi to discuss this issue.

136

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:12 AM Joseph Says:

Reply to #46  
FVNMS Says:

Please don't attack me I have no interest in defending what is pure truth.

As far as CBS and others of their ilk are concerned, food for thought: At any given time, there are tens of thousands of aircraft flying. Rarely does one crash. You only hear of the latter. Result? People are afraid of flying. Also, all the rules of piloting and air traffic control center on the obvious: don't be one of the rare cases that make the news. The same is true of Orthodox Judaism. Not much elaboration neccessary here.

For the rest of us: The giants of our past, may they rest in peace, NEVER would have dreamt that, although well intended, frumkeit would have evolved into something that so many disaffected youngsters view as the problem instead of the solution. Not all, but so much of what my generation was taught amounted to restrictiveness, pressure, docility, guilt and shame.

It's logical that when children learn by example that our lifestyle is one of joy and serenity, they would never consider the alternative. Mitzva Gedola li'hiyos besimcha tomid. Why because absent simcha, Torah just doesn't sell. A life of tum'ah and ta'avah appears like a veritable eden to our sad, depressed and bored youth.

How does our Shabbos table look? In what tone of voice do we talk to our kids about yeshiva/cheider/learning/rebbe/morah? How do we teach our children to daven and how do we react if they aren't doing so the way we'd like them to? How do we present tznius: "wear that and I'll kill you!" or "a special package comes in a special wrapper"? Don't like the second option? Don't cry when she becomes a shanda once she's no longer scared of you.

Speaking of shandas (only as a few of us call them); the most effective way to drive a girl into a boyfriends arms is to deny her affection and happiness at home. Its a no-brainer, wouldn't you say? I won't say much more about the matter in the spirit of good taste, other than that its too easy for predators to sniff out an easy mark. Why? Because no matter how modest her clothes are, they cannot conceal her obvious misery.

NEWSFLASH: your sheltered child knows more about male-female realities than you did at his/her age. NOW DEAL WITH IT. But by all means, throw that stoopud TV out of your home.

Wow, for once you actually make sense.

137

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:11 AM Heimishe Yid Says:

Excuse me! He is in an unhappy marriage that was arranged? So who didnt let him get out and divorce! He has to go out and have an affair behind his wifes back and go against our Torah?? This is not oisgehalten in the Yiddish world and not in the goyish world!! He has problems with his wife let him DEAL with it in an ehrlich Yiddish way, not go PUBLIC on the air and try to ligitimize his PROBLEMS!!

138

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #107  
Anonymous Says:

It is because most frum men know their wives have no where to go with their kids so they act like a-holes and don't work on marriage. It is very sad that most men act like bucherim in yeshiva towards their wives with no respect, love etc.

working hard on parnusah all day gives men no reason to take care of their wives otherwise i.e. emotional support, communication, date nights or even simple help. If you're not attracted to your wife then divorce her and if you don't want to cause you got kids then to bad for you. Maybe you look in the mirror and check out your own looks. Men cheat cause they want the hot looking women oh please have you taken a good look at your long beard and big belly?

The fact that you didn't preface any of your accusations with the word "some" points out that you are nothing but the usual kind of anti-semite. Yes, we have major problems in SOME homes and maybe more in SOME than in others but your targeting all frum men makes you no better than those who say all Jews are thieves, greedy or whatever else.

139

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #101  
JICKY Says:

The reason why leah couldnt write a check is because she comes from meah sheurim and did not know english till after her wedding

Why would a girl from Me'ah She'orim know English???

140

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #121  
mewhoze Says:

please email channel 2 news and ask them when they will be doing a similar expose on the christians, protestants, hindus, buddists etc. the only thing that the non jewish world saw from this broadcast was the opportunity for more anti semitism.
boycott channel 2 and any of their subsidiaries.

Maybe the report focused on frum jews because they hold themselves out as "chosen", more religious, holier, higher standards, given the job of Tikun Olam? If a group defines itself as better/different than others, it should expect more scrutiny. Also, there have been stories and tv shows and movies about the Amish. Closed, insulated groups in a secular, interconnected world are interesting. It's not anti-semitism, just human interest. I actually thought the story was done in a pretty respectful manner given the topic.

141

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Marriage is supposed to last a lifetime. Time should be taken to to think it over calmly, not under pressure.A couple should take time to make a decision (but not too much time, which is not tznius)if this is the person with whom you will spend one's life. Besides getting to know each other and understand each other, it is also the time to discuss many serious topics that will strongly impact lives. Someone shouldn't marry someone if there heart isn't in it.

142

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #116  
Hindy Says:

Many Rabbonim who have no idea how to deal with people and understand problems will just scream INTERNET! This is an easy cop out.
A real Rav will be able to comunicate to his people and make them understand the basic foundations of a Yiddishe home. Internet can be dangerous but a decayed neshoma will stray with or without internet.

And many rabbonim who have no business 'helping' with shalom bayis issues try to help anyway. Unless your rov is a very rare breed of person you need to go to see a person who deals with these issues and not your local orthodox rabbi.

Unless of course you take your kids to the local orthodox rabbi when his throat hurts and when he needs stitches or when he needs a haircut or braces or an eye exam..........

143

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:24 AM Anonymous Says:

The CBS producer for this story, Lee Kushnir, contacted me about 3 weeks ago. She read something I had written on a blog and asked me to call her in the newsroom. We spoke, and unfortunately, I did not have much to contribute to the story. I do not have a televsion. and the idea of being in contact with a newsroom at all made me very nervous. I think the cat is out of the bag now, but it is nothing that has not been going on for years, in every culture. I agree with an earlier posting, however, David Carlin did stress the piety of the average Chussid in the community.

144

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:43 AM Yemos Olam Says:

Divorce and the resulting single parent homes is very common in today's world at large.
So now, what is preferrable? A divorce with those results, or shverreh issurim d'oraisa of eishes ish (and probably boyel nida, and perhaps even full fledged mamzerim).
It is time for the chareidishe community to ease the social stigma of divorce. Yes, children will suffer - but (a) not always; (b) you can't control the environment and events that surround children; and kiyum Tora and Mitzsvos is the supreme goal of our stay in this world.
I might point out that my attitude comes with experience on this issue. I have helped many (dozens) of couple through a mentshlecheh divorce - because the gemora says "ein apotrupos larayos" -you cannot put a shomer at the door to promiscuity.

145

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:42 AM Anonymous Says:

Look (but don't look) @ Donald Trump 5 times married never happy
these people r never satisfied, Leah- Yossi r the same will go from one 2 the next,

146

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:32 AM TorahTruth Says:

Reply to #131  
pushiteryid Says:

Wonderful piece,thanks! Just wanted to add, Don't you think that our Rabbanim are at fault partially? When we see how they do shiduchim for money, yichus (and sadly good looks) what are our children supposed to say?!

It is not my place to assign fault to our Rabbanim, suffice it to say that they do the best that they can do but are also products of their environment. The issue however is not to find fault but to find solutions. We need to put pressure on our leaders to adopt a strategy that we believe will be successful (and I for one believe is the Derech HaTorah before it was changed). You must understand that our Rabbanim and Gedolim feel the pressure from the Kanaim who are lurching them further to the right, we need to apply the same pressure. A leading Gadol (if not the leading Gadol today) told me that he would make changes but if he did he would be "Ois Gadol" (his exact words). What he is saying is that people respect their Rabbanim as long as they agree with what they say and discard them when they disagree. What can I say... we are in Galus!

147

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Why do they have to mention that he didn't do anything before marriage, as if that is something negative? What's negative is that there are places on the internet or other media where people can post that they are looking for znus-even in the secular world that is against the law -so shouldn't those sites and media be taken to barred by law for allowing such stuff? If these people were serious about wanting to be married (which they must have been if they had gotten married in the first place), they should have gotten counseling instead of looking at disgusting ads.

148

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:15 PM Poshuter Yid Says:

Hey guys in every community you have peaple who have affairs and cheat . To point out the religous world and say that it is more prevaling here is non sense. Its a typical news story that grabs the curiousity because its a non issue in the frum world

149

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Hudy Says:

Looking for greener pasture in forbidden territory will not make them happy for too long. At the end of the day they all regret it and would love to go back home. But then it’s too late. These people need psychiatric help for their temporary pleasure-seeking and stupidities.

sounds like u are speaking from your own experience . contact VIN and do an interview and give him the run down so we can all learn from your experiences .

150

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Don't you realize that it is a bunch unhappy people trying to get back at the world that they come from because they can't take that someone else IS happy in the frum world. They also want to pfaff their nose at all of us and say see we can make it we don't need you. Very Sad.

151

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:27 PM mewhoze Says:

#145....speaking of trump, did you know his daughter is converting to judaism so that she can marry into the kushner family?
just an FYI

152

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:25 PM daniel Says:

Reply to #23  
MS Says:

Yossi's english is remarkably accent-free for someone who was supposedly raised Hassiddic. It sure sounds that English (and not Yiddish) was his first language -- and a midwestern English at that.

As for the special report, I'm surprised to know that two individuals constitute a trend.

this is nothing new it has been going on for a long time, just like it is happening in boro park, flatbush and yes in every community this is not to condon this by any means
but the more fences we build the more chumrers we add the problem will only get worse. the real problem is we have turned this over to the rabbis and they are the problem

153

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

1)the percentege of unhappy marriges in ths seculer world is much more, 2) if your lookink for help there are places you can get it
so don't blame the chasidic lifstyle

how can u compare secular to the frum comunity . we are less then a dot on the map . seculars are everything on the map so when u say 5 % or more are not happy that is a ver big number . Who are u trying to kid??

154

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:21 PM Gefilte Fish Says:

Looks like CBS learnt from the NY magazine/Gitty Greenwald story that any story about the Hasidic comunity is gonno get you famous and your website-hundreds of thousands of hits...

155

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Too much SHTIKA is what got us here in the first place!

and nuchem rosenberg is wrong ? precisly because of your shteka is why these things never get addressed .

156

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Watch it on Channel 2 last night, very lame and paerhaps shallow.

As if we don't know this, and this hasn't been going on for thousands of years. Just look into Tetshuveh seforim from hunreds of years ago.

Basically another hit by CBS2 on frum Jews.

157

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #137  
Heimishe Yid Says:

Excuse me! He is in an unhappy marriage that was arranged? So who didnt let him get out and divorce! He has to go out and have an affair behind his wifes back and go against our Torah?? This is not oisgehalten in the Yiddish world and not in the goyish world!! He has problems with his wife let him DEAL with it in an ehrlich Yiddish way, not go PUBLIC on the air and try to ligitimize his PROBLEMS!!

Get a divorce? So his children will never have a chance at a shidduch?

158

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Does anyone know what time it is on - I cant seem to find it

159

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #135  
Anonymous Says:

Why do you thing they went to "Rabbi Tendler" in the first place, they did not come to a Chasidishe Rabbi to discuss this issue.

Name the chassidesheh rebbeh who would have talked to them on camara.

160

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #121  
mewhoze Says:

please email channel 2 news and ask them when they will be doing a similar expose on the christians, protestants, hindus, buddists etc. the only thing that the non jewish world saw from this broadcast was the opportunity for more anti semitism.
boycott channel 2 and any of their subsidiaries.

Please your comment sounds so foolish. The media has spent the last decade and more exposing every priest they could find dirt on.

161

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These 2 are far from the only "unhappy" neshamos. Please get your head out of the sand....

162

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:31 PM Yoni Says:

It is the biggest proof that our system is working. Cos if it wouldn’t be a rare thing the media wouldn’t make a big deal out of it.

163

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't see the big deal here. The torah gives us the parsha of arayos becasue it understands there will be reshoim that cannot withstand temptation. The fact that you can find a few chasidim in this group is no chiddush. They are human beings as well. Any society no matter how perfect will deal with this issue as long as they are comprised of human beings.

164

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

the real problem is we call our selves the chosen people we adhere to a higher authority and yet we are as no worse then others you see this is not about cheating its about the phoneiness in our communities we learn more and walk the walk but its all show

165

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #139  
Anonymous Says:

Why would a girl from Me'ah She'orim know English???

america is not only place we use checks . apparently u havnt been to israel . believe it or israel uses the check and bank system too..

166

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:39 PM alter Says:

Don't watch T V in the first place.

167

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Some want to think that in the chassidishe world you get married via a shidduch and then find yourself in a bed with a complete stranger -- as if that is a catastrophe and everyone in the chassidishe system is a victim... and as I heard it being said by this pathetic woman, I wondered how is this so different from the way secular society operates? So you think it's going to be better there?

The difference is that in secular society, there is no wedding or commitment, it's all about self-gratification and considered the norm to go out to a bar and just end up in a bed with a complete stranger a few hours later... And then another stranger the next night and so forth. And this behavior is glorified, afterall, that was what the "sex and the city" tv series turned movie was all about.

I think it would be interesting to turn this around on the CBS news reporters who thought this a newsworthy story and ask them if they have ever behaved like that, ever engaged in such conduct. Ever ended up in a bed with a practical stranger. How many times did that happen to them and what did they do afterwards? Did they call the tv stations and think their personal experience was really newsworthy?

Truthfully, I think the organization Footsteps was behind this story and looking to promote themselves for fundraising purposes. From what I have heard reported, the founder is a religious woman turned anti-religious, who makes a point that non-kosher food is served there. There should be other options to Footsteps.

168

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
Anonymous Says:

Yup, here is another good trick to avoid an unpleasent truth. Deny that anyone else had a hand in getting these people to the point where issurai korais are meaningless.

Yup, we in the frum world are perfect so if anyone of our kids strays they are either total resho'im or have gone crazy.

I finally understand why the people on the Titanic didn't want to get in the life boats: They 'knew' that the Titanic was perfect and could not be sunk. Therefore, anyone telling them the ship is taking on water and is going to sink must have been out to hurt them or was crazy.

What are you talking about?

169

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:29 PM jews rock Says:

Reply to #1  
A.B.K Says:

Gun to my head, I could be a witness how true and how right they are...

Hey hey no one is going to shot you...

170

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:02 PM Anonymous Says:

The Torah gives the option of DIVORCE!!!!! there is no need to have extra marital affairs. ...(we are not the taliban.... )
The people that cheat...are the type that would cheat no matter what community they were part of... there are just some people that can not be faithful...and are tempted no matter what. it is easy for them to blame it on religion, parents, shidduch system... it takes away their guilt feelings... but the bottom line is each individual is responsible for his own actions...
even if they had dated for 2 years....you think these same people wouldn't have cheated?!! every person has their own set of morals that they choose to abide by.

171

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:02 PM Babishka Says:

Reply to #167  
Anonymous Says:

Some want to think that in the chassidishe world you get married via a shidduch and then find yourself in a bed with a complete stranger -- as if that is a catastrophe and everyone in the chassidishe system is a victim... and as I heard it being said by this pathetic woman, I wondered how is this so different from the way secular society operates? So you think it's going to be better there?

The difference is that in secular society, there is no wedding or commitment, it's all about self-gratification and considered the norm to go out to a bar and just end up in a bed with a complete stranger a few hours later... And then another stranger the next night and so forth. And this behavior is glorified, afterall, that was what the "sex and the city" tv series turned movie was all about.

I think it would be interesting to turn this around on the CBS news reporters who thought this a newsworthy story and ask them if they have ever behaved like that, ever engaged in such conduct. Ever ended up in a bed with a practical stranger. How many times did that happen to them and what did they do afterwards? Did they call the tv stations and think their personal experience was really newsworthy?

Truthfully, I think the organization Footsteps was behind this story and looking to promote themselves for fundraising purposes. From what I have heard reported, the founder is a religious woman turned anti-religious, who makes a point that non-kosher food is served there. There should be other options to Footsteps.

"Footsteps" was founded by Malky Schwartz after she received $1 million from her secular grandmother to leave Yiddishkeit, and so the grandmother could get a tax break.

172

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:54 PM Gadolwannabe Says:

I am a Modern Orthodox attorney who has been practicing law for over 35 years. During that time, I have represented many Chasidic Jews.

This story is as old as Yehuda and Tamar. 25 years ago I represented the owners of a "Massage Parlor" on West 46th Street, bet 5th & 6th Avenues.25% of the customers were Chasidic Jews in the Diamond District. Their wives knew nothing and their needs were serviced. Nothing has changed.

The gemara and meforshim deal with these issues. CBS is just going for the November "sweeps" rating with this story. It's no big deal.

173

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:54 PM Izzy Says:

I'm not saying there's no problems in our back yards,and we do have many to solve, but look at all good community activeties around, hatzolah, boneh olam,rccs,etc. I'm sorry my fingers going to get sore if I have to finish writing all of them .

174

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50 PM Frum Guy Says:

Reply to #72  
Kiruv Says:

I happen to be slightly involved in "kiruv keroivim", I had the opportunity several times to bring back (at least in part) some troubled women out of their despair and distress.
As of my experience, the 2 most complicated cases were:
1) was a fine girl grew up in a warm fine home with loving parents, she just got "married" to the internet! even after she has done a good shiduch and married a super yungerman, she would still stay in the office 2-3 hrs 'overtime' to watch inappropriate material, it was a real addiction, it was eating sleeping and the internet. when things got so bad she was about to divorce (understandably, her husband literally had no wife..) some experts came into the picture to get to the root of the problem, at one point she just opened her heart to me and cried her breath out for nearly 2 hours, with such remorse and blame on herself how she allowed herself to get so carried away from this planet. now a few years later, after a lot of help was to her assistance, and they are a very happy couple.
2) was a young woman, 2 shiduchim were on the board when she had to make a decision, her father explained to her, that one of them M. was very good looking and handsome, but the people around him claim he has no manners, no middos and a bad attitude. on the other hand was J. also a cute boy, but not so tall and handsome as M. but with exceptional middos and very well mannered. she decided on M. she fell for his looks. right after the 'honey moon' ended, the storm started she suffered and didn't talk about it.. she was ashamed to complain to her parents, because they advised her differently before doing the shidduch. instead she started glitching off the derech, and that was so complicated, she felt like a total flop, after a few years of leading a secular life as a "single mom" she became so miserable, and then she started coming back, she's getting a tremendous amount of love of the people here, and she's now settling nicely back in her old community.
I think those stories speak for themselves.

I was brought up in an extreme orthodox home in Brooklyn, I married my wife more than 15 years ago with a so called 'pre arranged" shiduch. but my parents didn't give the OK until I did, and that was after 3 dates!! and this is the way most shiduchim operate.
How can people lie and say they were forced in, it's stupid and lie!

175

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #165  
Anonymous Says:

america is not only place we use checks . apparently u havnt been to israel . believe it or israel uses the check and bank system too..

She said before she got married she did not even know how to write a check. Someone on VIN blamed it on the fact that she grew up in Meah She'arim and therefore did not speak English.

Hence, I asked why a girl growing up in Meah She'arim would know English.

176

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Kiruv Says:

I happen to be slightly involved in "kiruv keroivim", I had the opportunity several times to bring back (at least in part) some troubled women out of their despair and distress.
As of my experience, the 2 most complicated cases were:
1) was a fine girl grew up in a warm fine home with loving parents, she just got "married" to the internet! even after she has done a good shiduch and married a super yungerman, she would still stay in the office 2-3 hrs 'overtime' to watch inappropriate material, it was a real addiction, it was eating sleeping and the internet. when things got so bad she was about to divorce (understandably, her husband literally had no wife..) some experts came into the picture to get to the root of the problem, at one point she just opened her heart to me and cried her breath out for nearly 2 hours, with such remorse and blame on herself how she allowed herself to get so carried away from this planet. now a few years later, after a lot of help was to her assistance, and they are a very happy couple.
2) was a young woman, 2 shiduchim were on the board when she had to make a decision, her father explained to her, that one of them M. was very good looking and handsome, but the people around him claim he has no manners, no middos and a bad attitude. on the other hand was J. also a cute boy, but not so tall and handsome as M. but with exceptional middos and very well mannered. she decided on M. she fell for his looks. right after the 'honey moon' ended, the storm started she suffered and didn't talk about it.. she was ashamed to complain to her parents, because they advised her differently before doing the shidduch. instead she started glitching off the derech, and that was so complicated, she felt like a total flop, after a few years of leading a secular life as a "single mom" she became so miserable, and then she started coming back, she's getting a tremendous amount of love of the people here, and she's now settling nicely back in her old community.
I think those stories speak for themselves.

I'm touched by the example stories you wrote, it shows that "self chosen" shidichim, and "falling in love" = going for looks only.. is a total
flop! the traditional way of shidichim is still the most efficient and the most successful marriages, as the statistics show.

177

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:11 PM ANONYMOUS Says:

I B'H got married at 19 to the most wonderful guy in the world. We are in love with each other! It has nothing to do if it was arranged or not! My mother gave me the choice to say whether i want to marry him or not it was completely up to me. i am chassidish and am the happiest wife in the world. The portrait that these reporters are painting for the world in regard to chassidim is totally out of proportion and totally untrue!! i knew everything about life when i was young, i was openminded to it all. Gitty Grunwald and Leah and YOssi and all the rest are just lying straight to the faces of the media-they are a shanda and busha for klal yisroel!!!!

178

 Nov 25, 2008 at 12:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #163  
Anonymous Says:

I don't see the big deal here. The torah gives us the parsha of arayos becasue it understands there will be reshoim that cannot withstand temptation. The fact that you can find a few chasidim in this group is no chiddush. They are human beings as well. Any society no matter how perfect will deal with this issue as long as they are comprised of human beings.

Resho'im who cannot withstand temptation? Then why are they resho'im?

Sounds like someone needs a lesson in bechira chofshis.

179

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:25 PM Anonymous Says:

"There are heteirim for men who cannot control themselves to meet non-Jewish women in private settings"

??!!
What is the number of the Rabbi giving out that heter ?

180

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #178  
Anonymous Says:

Resho'im who cannot withstand temptation? Then why are they resho'im?

Sounds like someone needs a lesson in bechira chofshis.

dont follow you. are you saying that someone who gives into to his yetzer horah and is unfaithful to his wife and kids and ruins their lives in order to have a little fun is not called a rasha

181

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:06 PM Lets take a deeper look Says:

Good day,

Most of you that are on the VIN blog, are well aware of the temptations that we face on a day to day basis. I am sure that while we ook at every post over and over we can see the diffrence in opinion on how this topic is reviewed.
Firstly we must understand that in todays society as in the past generations there is and always have been Neshomos that fal through the crack. We may have deemed them BUMS, APIKORSIM, or LOWLIFES, but sadly these people are like you and I. Theses are youngsters and adults looking for a meaningfull life in a society that sometimes shuns them. It is well known that is only recently that we have been offering guidance to theses souls when they are confused.
Generally the issue stems from the need of attention or the lack of love. But we recently have seen many who are oerwhelmed with the ultra-orthodox lifestyle. We must understand that the Chassidish way of life is not the only stable life out there. It may be the most sheltered but it is by far not the biggest. When someone strays he may be wanting to leave a certain community yet remain a good YID.
It eerks me that even though some communities don't frown boyfriend/girlfriend relationships very few would engage in swinger type of actvities. This type of behavior steems from sexuall frustration, which is apparent in some circles. We need to face the problem instead of hiding from it.

182

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
chacham Says:

SE'YUG LECHUCHMU....SHTIKA!!

I HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU BUT PUSHING THESE ISSUES UNDER THE RUG ISNT TOO SMART
ADMITTING OUR COMMUNITY HAS A PROBLEM AND WORKING TO HELP THOSE WHO HAVE PROBLEMS IS THE START OF A SOLUTION BURYING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND NOT ADMITTING THEIR IS A PROBLEM ISNT A SIUG LACHOCHMO JUST THE OPPOSITE !!

183

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:

These 2 don't seem to take responsibility for their actions or the pain they caused. It's all the fault of the environment in which they were raised. The fact that they are immoral is totally irrelevant and not their fault. Hundreds of thousands of frum Jews in Brooklyn alone behave responsibly and are loving spouses & parents. Why aren't THEY interviewed? Not newsworthy.

184

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #172  
Gadolwannabe Says:

I am a Modern Orthodox attorney who has been practicing law for over 35 years. During that time, I have represented many Chasidic Jews.

This story is as old as Yehuda and Tamar. 25 years ago I represented the owners of a "Massage Parlor" on West 46th Street, bet 5th & 6th Avenues.25% of the customers were Chasidic Jews in the Diamond District. Their wives knew nothing and their needs were serviced. Nothing has changed.

The gemara and meforshim deal with these issues. CBS is just going for the November "sweeps" rating with this story. It's no big deal.

WRONG!!! there are no heteirim!

185

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

I am a kollel guy and although i don't know to which extent this actually exists what i do know is that this problem is there in potential.Of the conversations i had with so many friends who don't have internet access and they tell a story so similar to that of Yossi's and leah's tells me that we could be having many more of these stories in the future heaven forbid.The way we handle shiduchim is definitely part of the problem even if we were to agree that the chasidish way is correct.How many people do we know that make their childrens shiduchim to benefit themselves more than their kids?! for honor,for money and so forth.Our tradition never had it to force our kids into unhappy marriages that benefit ourselves! Another factor is sadly some of the leaders who we follow,how can our children be happy with the spouses they get when they know that the rebbe or roshyeshiva is looking for his son the most beautiful girl and from the richest family?! Perhaps if they would set the guidelines of qualities to look for in a spouse our children would be happy with what we found them!And all the above goes with saying that we are causing our own problems to a certain degree,if our daughters go out in the streets dressed the way we are sadly getting accustomed to how is possible for yungeleit to stay happy with their wives?! This article hits us full force and is a bleeding cry to wake up and be aware of our wrong actions and attitutes that are taking their toll on the community with interest. May Hashem have mercy and give up another chance...

I agree with you. I understand that many people asked their Rabbi's if it is okay to go out with the person that they are being set up. However, the problem lies in that have a connection is between the two people who are supposed to go out on the date to see if they click and have things in common such as hashkafah and the like. When their Rabbi tells them it's not a good "shiudduch" it can actually be harmful. Sometimes a girl or guy comes from what the Rabbi considers not such a good family, but in reality this girl/guy are actually a good match for the girl/guy but werent given a chance because the Rabbi said "no". It is very unfortunate.The girl/guy then goes out with whom the Rabbi said is good, they get married and then are divorced, sometimes pregnant within a year when they really didnt mesh well. But their Rabbi said....

186

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Here we go with rabbi tendler again starting up with the heimishe community thats old news as far as vin don't get so carry'd away with this article you make it sound like you have bring down the heavens for what ??? For some board journalist that didnt have what to write for a while as far as the truth yes 100% true but don't forget that most people are happy & lead productive lives & bring up beautiful family's unlike the secular world that cheating & changing marriges like I change my socks

Rabbi Tendler is not saying anything new or bad. In society you can take the good and work with it in a positive and frum way. How many of the "Frum" people drive fancy cars? How many shop at Saks and buy their children Burberry?? If it is so bad to go out of your enclave and into secular society dont buy clothing that the Goyim wear or drive the same cars because it is bad. But we do buy and wear the clothing when it is good for us and/ or is tznius. You cant have it both ways.

On a side note, even if you disagree with what a Rabbi says, it is not derech eretz (respectful) to be disrepectful or bash him, after all he is still the son of Hashem Yisbarach!

187

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:47 PM in the know Says:

Sorry to say this but this whole CBS report is NOT at all only reserved to chassidim . Just take a look what is goin on in the EER HAKODESH Of Lakewood.
Its chassidim, litvaks, and modern yeshivish just as well.
The divorce rate in Lakewood alone is not to be believed

188

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:45 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #23  
MS Says:

Yossi's english is remarkably accent-free for someone who was supposedly raised Hassiddic. It sure sounds that English (and not Yiddish) was his first language -- and a midwestern English at that.

As for the special report, I'm surprised to know that two individuals constitute a trend.

When it comes to painting the Chasidic Community with a wide brush, even one [person] is considered a trend!!! We are the last group where it's Okay to bash and generalize about! (Please note, I'm not addressing myself to the accuracy --or lack of it-- in the report!)!!!

189

 Nov 25, 2008 at 01:44 PM Anonymous Says:

The gemara and meforshim deal with these issues. There are heteirim for men who cannot control themselves to meet non-Jewish women in private settings. CBS is just going for the November "sweeps" rating with this story. It's no big deal.

where does the gemara give a hetar? please enlighten me,

190

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
rush Says:

Let just put things in perspective .
If you go back even hundreds of years age there were always a few bad apples doing what they're not supposed to(look in all the tesheeva seforim what type of shalos there are)maybe the problem is little more wide spread today because of the internet and the enviorment we live in but overall i think our way of life has succeeded by far more than any other the only difference is that today there's a thing called the drive by media and they pick and choose whatshould be reported so don't panic the world is not ending because of two lowlifes made headlines.
Be proud we have nothing to be ashamed of.
I'll bet you anything and everything try the other way around the openminded free world you'll never be satisfied there's a reason we yiden have highest success rate in every aspect of life for the past 3000 plus years. We never did and never will give up our way of life even if it means giving up our lives!! And cbs we'll surely not change that

I believe in freedom of religion. You have every right to live your life as you choose. Please show the same respect to others.

191

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:42 PM anonymous Says:

The whole discussion is a moot question. One has to look what is the percentile of marriages which went off the derech in ratio to beautiful marriages. I am a survivor of 4 years concentration camp. With hashem yisborach's help I am married 47 years have grandchildren , one a chushiver with a strajmel. Nothing is perfect and bnei yisroel sinned with eygel at har sinai

192

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:53 PM one of 'em Says:

Another case of nebechdiga Nidchei Yisroel lost souls who have gone off the derech for whatever reasons, and live a hefker life, that does'nt make them happy, (trust me i have spoken to them, yes i've spoken to leah too, who's real name isnt leah) and they miss their previous pious life, so they go and bashmeer all of us, every one is an adulterer, shame on CBS for buying this garbage.

193

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:

why are we amking such a fuss over yossi and leah...its a shame that we got this far but we should NOT be ashamed of our frum community..we burech hashem have tens of thousands of erliche jewish homes who live happy and have beautiful homes and raise erliche kids..We are no comparison to whats happening in the goyishe world..The world is TUMEH and it catches nebech a few hundred of our kids..Lets take a tour to Lakewood,Boro Park,Monsey,KJ,Five Towns,Baltimore,Chicago,LA,Detroit,Atlanta,Miami and dozens of jewish communities and look around how many frum families are observing yidishkeit. Some learn full time and many work their days shift for one purpose.TO do the will of Hashem and raise jewish families. I do not have to mention the Hundreds of thousands from all over the world. Lets not feel ASHAMED from the people who sit and listen to internet all day..LETS be PROUD of our YIDISHKEIT and pray to Hashem that our kids dont fall to those trash and lets be mispalel for all YOSSIS and Leahs that hashem should guide them back to the real Torah derech and do tshuveh and come back home to their communities and be part of hashems soldiers....

194

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:55 PM M Says:

Reply to #189  
Anonymous Says:

The gemara and meforshim deal with these issues. There are heteirim for men who cannot control themselves to meet non-Jewish women in private settings. CBS is just going for the November "sweeps" rating with this story. It's no big deal.

where does the gemara give a hetar? please enlighten me,

"You're supposed to wear dark clothing and go to a different city" It does say that somewhere....

195

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #178  
Anonymous Says:

Resho'im who cannot withstand temptation? Then why are they resho'im?

Sounds like someone needs a lesson in bechira chofshis.

groysa talmid chochom. ever if one has free will they can be called a rusha if they fail. i think you need to use your bechirah chofshis and spend some more time in yeshiva.

196

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:47 PM yenta Says:

You're all nuts. Honestly... I've been reading a lot of these comments and I don't know what the fuss is about. You're all paranoid. If you think that frum Jews don't need to divorce just because they are frum and their children "wont get a shidduch".... well you are pathetic. I know many children from divorced families who are now happily married. Just like a know a few from un-broken families who have made a "bad shidduch" and it didn't work out. Divorce is a reality these days. A "gett" is a mitzvah in some situations. Get real and stop pretending your better than everyone else, because if you think that way, you're defintely NOT better than everyone else - you are narcissistic and need to face reality.

197

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:07 PM Anonymous Says:


I don’t mean to regurgitate a lot of what has previously been posted but being that im sure that a lot of what already been said on this issue will be repeated i will try to get straight to the point.

I can already see all the deep and philosophical thinkers trying to "make scence" out of this terrible report.

I think that it's all a waste of time.

First of all lets be very clear about it. Although there are obviously more than just these two people involved in this kind of this behavior it is still a minority. Secondly lets just be very open about it these people just cannot control their urges/temptations.

We all have our own urges every day. Be it in the workplace, on the internet, while traveling abroad etc. etc. A normal mature person knows that he must control himself while there are those that just can’t. It's as simple as that.

Lets be honest about this as well. A lot more of us would have probably "fallen thru" if not for the "FEAR FACTOR" of people finding out, which would then ruin ours and our families reputation forever. But that doesn't mean that the temptations weren’t there. They WERE there but most people know that they MUST control themselves.

These two people are from that small percentage of people that their temptation/heart won over their sechel/minds.

No need for any soul searching and investigations and long thought provoking essays and studies on why these people do these things.

They just cant control their impulses which they obviously need therapy for but it does not necessarily have to do with their background or religion.

198

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:58 PM Not happy Says:

Reply to #44  
chsid Says:

looks like your from the 5 % that are not happy. but from my approxemetly 300 freinds & family its 5 % if not less that are not happy

Who says you have to be happy in life?
Also, who says you can do whatever you want (any aveirah) just because you are not happy?

199

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

no one understands the people who go of the way they were raised until they are in there shoes. no one should judge them. for cbs to do this story is pathetic. they could of as much done a story on the arabs and muslims who are also very strict in there religion. i just wish everyone will watch what they writes as to make sure this post wont turn into a big chillul hashem since not only jews read this site. one note if i can: can people please spell check before writing . i am sometimes so embarrased by the spelling mistakes people make its pathetic.

I totally agree. I can not believe CBS does not have what to do but investigate this story for three months in a row. With all that is going on now in the world and in the USA, politics, economy, and all other headlines, I think it is a shame that they decided to run this story. Although I am not denying that this is true, why go exploiting us especially when they know that we usually are a very tight knit community who tries to handle our problems on our own and do not seek outside help, we seek help and guidance from our Rabbis and the Torah. An apology from CBS and the reporter would surely be appropriate and if I would be able to forward this to them anonymously I sure would.
One last note to the two people who helped them do this story, it is enough the shame your parents and siblings suffer from your actions, do you have to embarass us all. I sure hope you get the help you deserve.

201

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Hudy Says:

Looking for greener pasture in forbidden territory will not make them happy for too long. At the end of the day they all regret it and would love to go back home. But then it’s too late. These people need psychiatric help for their temporary pleasure-seeking and stupidities.

Why do you think it's only these people who need help? What about all the people running after temporary pleasures like fancy -cars, clothes and houses? Lots and lots of people live to keep up with the Joneses. Maybe we should all re-evaluate our priorities in life!

202

 Nov 25, 2008 at 02:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #171  
Babishka Says:

"Footsteps" was founded by Malky Schwartz after she received $1 million from her secular grandmother to leave Yiddishkeit, and so the grandmother could get a tax break.

Malky Schwartz was in my daughter's class. She freied out when, ironically, she went to Israel for Seminary & met all her frei relatives. We heard the same thing...her rich family "bought" her, showed her what she was missing, & this innocent Frum young girl crossed the line.The thing is, she was the most Chassidish of the class! The girls looked up to her, she was brilliant & sincere in her frumkeit, a great example...then.

She's entitled to her views but I wonder if she exploits the doubts that some Frum Jews, especially adolescents, have & the interest they may have in "trying out" or experimenting with a more secular way of life. I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't be surprised that in trying to "cult bust" young impressionable minds she persuades them that their Frum way of life is no good. If people go to her she'll make them frei. If they go to someone like Rabbi Horowitz he'll help them see the right path. Very sad.

She gets grants from a number of organizations, INCLUDING the Met Council. So you people who send them donations...protest! Your hard earned money goes to making Frum people frei and then they start influencing others.

203

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Lets be honest about this as well. A lot more of us would have probably "fallen thru" if not for the "FEAR FACTOR" of people finding out, which would then ruin ours and our families reputation forever. But that doesn't mean that the temptations weren’t there. They WERE there but most people know that they MUST control themselves.
Maybe YOU would do more if there was no FEAR, but that just shows that YOU have NO "Yiras" Shomayim. He is everywhere and sees everything.

204

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #203  
Anonymous Says:

Lets be honest about this as well. A lot more of us would have probably "fallen thru" if not for the "FEAR FACTOR" of people finding out, which would then ruin ours and our families reputation forever. But that doesn't mean that the temptations weren’t there. They WERE there but most people know that they MUST control themselves.
Maybe YOU would do more if there was no FEAR, but that just shows that YOU have NO "Yiras" Shomayim. He is everywhere and sees everything.


You're 100% Correct we should all strive to have pure "yiras shomayim" but at least untill we get there, the fear of other people should help us too.

205

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:31 PM jews rock Says:

Come one people , you sound like this happens every minute... Its true that there is a lot of problems in our community but that doesn't mean that this particular story is so mind boggling! Anyone who sees this report sees that those two drop outs don't " lek Honig" as we say...

206

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
nu nu Says:

This just shows how important it is to education children to the outside world. Stop building walls and instead strengthen the foundation for children.

EXACTLY - we dont need walls if we have a strong foundation. I am a BT and I had a strong foundation in values, wthics etc. My grandparents were european jews who became secular but my great grandparents were chasidic. I maintained my sanity in secular world because my family values were intact - despite my lack of torah knowledge. I had a strong foundation.

207

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:49 PM KC Says:

Well if you are all so frum why are you even using the internet? The hasidic community is an oppressive environment .Congratulations to Leah and Yossi for speaking out. Leah and Yossi are among many thousands of people who want to escape an environment that does not let them make a choice for even who they marry. I see so many people who want to leave the hasidic environment however they are to afraid because of this judgmental community. It is organized that they marry people at such a young age so they have children and no other way out. When someone wants to leave this community they preach and make judgments and only back the religious parent. It is a vicious cycle. I see many people make excuses for watching tv or cheating saying it is ok then preaching the Torah. I have seen the children taught in hasidic schools very little education and to not talk to anyone who is not jewish as well as many racial slurs. I was shocked by this that as a people who went through the Holocaust would be no better then a Nazi and teach hate.It is time for people to realize we are all people. Not accepting all of our brothers and sisters no matter how different they are will only cause deceit and pain. If one cannot be true to themselves how can they be true to anyone else?

208

 Nov 25, 2008 at 04:04 PM leah Says:

men will find there love either at home or somewhere else.. its up to the baalebustes too..

209

 Nov 25, 2008 at 03:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #207  
KC Says:

Well if you are all so frum why are you even using the internet? The hasidic community is an oppressive environment .Congratulations to Leah and Yossi for speaking out. Leah and Yossi are among many thousands of people who want to escape an environment that does not let them make a choice for even who they marry. I see so many people who want to leave the hasidic environment however they are to afraid because of this judgmental community. It is organized that they marry people at such a young age so they have children and no other way out. When someone wants to leave this community they preach and make judgments and only back the religious parent. It is a vicious cycle. I see many people make excuses for watching tv or cheating saying it is ok then preaching the Torah. I have seen the children taught in hasidic schools very little education and to not talk to anyone who is not jewish as well as many racial slurs. I was shocked by this that as a people who went through the Holocaust would be no better then a Nazi and teach hate.It is time for people to realize we are all people. Not accepting all of our brothers and sisters no matter how different they are will only cause deceit and pain. If one cannot be true to themselves how can they be true to anyone else?

KC: sounds that you are not happy with your life! And about the internet, I’m using "filternet" and most Hasidic are using filters or jnet, so shot up!!

210

 Nov 25, 2008 at 04:42 PM fahfrumt Says:

Reply to #46  
FVNMS Says:

Please don't attack me I have no interest in defending what is pure truth.

As far as CBS and others of their ilk are concerned, food for thought: At any given time, there are tens of thousands of aircraft flying. Rarely does one crash. You only hear of the latter. Result? People are afraid of flying. Also, all the rules of piloting and air traffic control center on the obvious: don't be one of the rare cases that make the news. The same is true of Orthodox Judaism. Not much elaboration neccessary here.

For the rest of us: The giants of our past, may they rest in peace, NEVER would have dreamt that, although well intended, frumkeit would have evolved into something that so many disaffected youngsters view as the problem instead of the solution. Not all, but so much of what my generation was taught amounted to restrictiveness, pressure, docility, guilt and shame.

It's logical that when children learn by example that our lifestyle is one of joy and serenity, they would never consider the alternative. Mitzva Gedola li'hiyos besimcha tomid. Why because absent simcha, Torah just doesn't sell. A life of tum'ah and ta'avah appears like a veritable eden to our sad, depressed and bored youth.

How does our Shabbos table look? In what tone of voice do we talk to our kids about yeshiva/cheider/learning/rebbe/morah? How do we teach our children to daven and how do we react if they aren't doing so the way we'd like them to? How do we present tznius: "wear that and I'll kill you!" or "a special package comes in a special wrapper"? Don't like the second option? Don't cry when she becomes a shanda once she's no longer scared of you.

Speaking of shandas (only as a few of us call them); the most effective way to drive a girl into a boyfriends arms is to deny her affection and happiness at home. Its a no-brainer, wouldn't you say? I won't say much more about the matter in the spirit of good taste, other than that its too easy for predators to sniff out an easy mark. Why? Because no matter how modest her clothes are, they cannot conceal her obvious misery.

NEWSFLASH: your sheltered child knows more about male-female realities than you did at his/her age. NOW DEAL WITH IT. But by all means, throw that stoopud TV out of your home.

Well said. Thanks.

211

 Nov 25, 2008 at 04:57 PM Whatever Says:

I dont think this is THAT big a deal. NOT the part about having affairs, etc. but the article. It was well-written, it did not vilify Chassidim, it DID point out that these cases are not common.
It is VERY sad that this occurs, but the article itself was reality...

212

 Nov 25, 2008 at 05:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #195  
Anonymous Says:

groysa talmid chochom. ever if one has free will they can be called a rusha if they fail. i think you need to use your bechirah chofshis and spend some more time in yeshiva.

Read what I responded to before you start passing around insults.

A previous writer wrote about 'rosho'im who cannot control themselves).

My point was that ONLY because we have bechira chofshis can we be considered resho'im when we sin. If resho'im only did avairos because they lack the ability to control themselves they would not be called resho'im.

A rosha DOES not control himself, not CANNOT control himself.

213

 Nov 25, 2008 at 04:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #180  
Anonymous Says:

dont follow you. are you saying that someone who gives into to his yetzer horah and is unfaithful to his wife and kids and ruins their lives in order to have a little fun is not called a rasha

No. My point was that there is no such thing as a rosha who cannot control himself. That is why he is a rosha. He could have stopped himself but didn't. If it were out of his control he would be an onais and hence, not a rosha.

214

 Nov 25, 2008 at 05:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #208  
leah Says:

men will find there love either at home or somewhere else.. its up to the baalebustes too..

I hope you keep your husband happy. In my perspective there is no reason at all that gives a guy or gal the right to cheat on his or her husband/wife. We get married for better or for worse. Relationships have to be worked on that it should blossom. And all those people that have done it with people other than there spouse, in most cases it is your fault not your spouse's because a. the grass is not greener on the other side b. when was the last time you told your spouse that you love him/her or took time out to make him/her feel special and wanted? c. usually when a person does stray with someone else it is because they have no self respect for themselves and need help. So to all you guys and gals out there, there is help available if you would just look for it. good luck

215

 Nov 25, 2008 at 05:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #208  
leah Says:

men will find there love either at home or somewhere else.. its up to the baalebustes too..

You've confused love with lust.

216

 Nov 25, 2008 at 05:40 PM Anonymous Says:

I didn't read all comments to this post and it could be that someone wrote the same point. Nor did I see the CBS show.

A goy (gentile) co-worker of mine told me today that she watched the CBS2 Exclusive and actually thought much better of us Frum Jews after watching it.

Her reaction basically was, if in a 3 month investigation they were only able to come up with a few cases like these, your (meaning the Frum Jewish) method does seem to work.

She also said that she finds it very bias from CBS to do this. Everyone knows that this goes on in all walks of life, Jewish, Arab, Catholic, Christian etc, but CBS finds it necessary to do an Exclusive when they find a Jewish case.

I don't have anything to add to her (a goyte's) words. They speak for themselves.

217

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #216  
Anonymous Says:

I didn't read all comments to this post and it could be that someone wrote the same point. Nor did I see the CBS show.

A goy (gentile) co-worker of mine told me today that she watched the CBS2 Exclusive and actually thought much better of us Frum Jews after watching it.

Her reaction basically was, if in a 3 month investigation they were only able to come up with a few cases like these, your (meaning the Frum Jewish) method does seem to work.

She also said that she finds it very bias from CBS to do this. Everyone knows that this goes on in all walks of life, Jewish, Arab, Catholic, Christian etc, but CBS finds it necessary to do an Exclusive when they find a Jewish case.

I don't have anything to add to her (a goyte's) words. They speak for themselves.

Yes. Yes and Yes!
You are right is an understatement.
Thank you for that post.

218

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #194  
M Says:

"You're supposed to wear dark clothing and go to a different city" It does say that somewhere....

Did you see Rashi? "and this will break his heart, so he'll lose his yetzer hora and will not sin".
there's no heter to sin.

219

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #214  
Anonymous Says:

I hope you keep your husband happy. In my perspective there is no reason at all that gives a guy or gal the right to cheat on his or her husband/wife. We get married for better or for worse. Relationships have to be worked on that it should blossom. And all those people that have done it with people other than there spouse, in most cases it is your fault not your spouse's because a. the grass is not greener on the other side b. when was the last time you told your spouse that you love him/her or took time out to make him/her feel special and wanted? c. usually when a person does stray with someone else it is because they have no self respect for themselves and need help. So to all you guys and gals out there, there is help available if you would just look for it. good luck

What if you're married with someone who you have nothing in common with and who you're not in love with, yet you have a full family. Divorce is not an option becuase of the kids. Therepy was already tried but didn't work. What is there to do? Be miserable your entire life, come home in a bad mood every night?

220

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

Let's not judge them. Try to imagine the pain of being locked into a loveless never-ending awful relationship - it could drive anyone over the edge.

They are NOT locked into a loveless never-ending awful relationship which drove them over the edge. They could gotten divorced and remarried happily, without the aveira of "aishes ish" which carries the penalty of misa - Rachmono litzlan.

221

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #207  
KC Says:

Well if you are all so frum why are you even using the internet? The hasidic community is an oppressive environment .Congratulations to Leah and Yossi for speaking out. Leah and Yossi are among many thousands of people who want to escape an environment that does not let them make a choice for even who they marry. I see so many people who want to leave the hasidic environment however they are to afraid because of this judgmental community. It is organized that they marry people at such a young age so they have children and no other way out. When someone wants to leave this community they preach and make judgments and only back the religious parent. It is a vicious cycle. I see many people make excuses for watching tv or cheating saying it is ok then preaching the Torah. I have seen the children taught in hasidic schools very little education and to not talk to anyone who is not jewish as well as many racial slurs. I was shocked by this that as a people who went through the Holocaust would be no better then a Nazi and teach hate.It is time for people to realize we are all people. Not accepting all of our brothers and sisters no matter how different they are will only cause deceit and pain. If one cannot be true to themselves how can they be true to anyone else?

KC,
I don’t agree with most of what you’re saying, but I do agree with your statement about racism. I, too am baffled by how racism is openly preached in our community while we we're ourselves victims of hate during the Nazi era. And it's not like we don't know about the Nazis, most of our grandparents were in the holocaust. For example, my daughter’s dumb teacher told her students that Obama shouldn’t be elected because he’s Shvortz. Can you believe this?
I’ll say this though, I don’t think it comes from hate, I believe it comes from being VERY naive and ignorant. You speak to any average chusid and he’ll talk to you as if he’s got the entire world figured out. Yet, he’s got no education outside of Yeshiva and was never exposed to the outside world. They are a very smart bunch but naïve at the same time. Hey, I’m one of them, but I think I got passed the naiveté. The more I learn the more I find out how much I don’t know. But please let’s not say they’re bad people because they’re anything but. Look at the amount of Chesed being done by them. Truly amazing!

222

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #207  
KC Says:

Well if you are all so frum why are you even using the internet? The hasidic community is an oppressive environment .Congratulations to Leah and Yossi for speaking out. Leah and Yossi are among many thousands of people who want to escape an environment that does not let them make a choice for even who they marry. I see so many people who want to leave the hasidic environment however they are to afraid because of this judgmental community. It is organized that they marry people at such a young age so they have children and no other way out. When someone wants to leave this community they preach and make judgments and only back the religious parent. It is a vicious cycle. I see many people make excuses for watching tv or cheating saying it is ok then preaching the Torah. I have seen the children taught in hasidic schools very little education and to not talk to anyone who is not jewish as well as many racial slurs. I was shocked by this that as a people who went through the Holocaust would be no better then a Nazi and teach hate.It is time for people to realize we are all people. Not accepting all of our brothers and sisters no matter how different they are will only cause deceit and pain. If one cannot be true to themselves how can they be true to anyone else?

I would take a guess that you're not a jew, therefore you're misinformed, and preaching false information smeared with stupid lies.
If you are jewish, then you must be real bitter and miserable.

223

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:26 PM AuthenticSatmar Says:

So they interviewed 2 people, and all of a sudden the whole religion is under attack? How many priests are molesters? How many 'celibate' priests have been with women? This article isn't worth even discussing.

224

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Who is she? Whats her real name?

225

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #219  
Anonymous Says:

What if you're married with someone who you have nothing in common with and who you're not in love with, yet you have a full family. Divorce is not an option becuase of the kids. Therepy was already tried but didn't work. What is there to do? Be miserable your entire life, come home in a bad mood every night?

You deal with it. And the more you do for a person the more you love them. There is never!!!!!! and excuse to stray.

226

 Nov 25, 2008 at 06:59 PM Anonymous Says:

its not only the chassidishe world....its the litvish world, too.
its melamdim as well as business men.
dont blame the internet...when someone is looking for that 'outlet' they will find it...bungalow colonies, simchos...lots of people in lots of places that are searching for the elusive happiness.

227

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:04 PM Anonymous Says:

I am shocked and appaled that CBS would waste their time with some information like this. Just because there are some people that are having affairs outside of their marriage,doesnt mean everyone is. They took 2 unfortunate people,highlighted them and based the jewish community on them, how ridiculous and absurd!
Reminds me of the book the UNCHOSEN and the tv special years ago A LIFE APART. they think going to the media will make them happier? NO! what they are doing is a mere chillul hashem,raising antisemitism and disrespect for us yidden.
Dunno if any of you noticed at the footnote of the article online there was a link to footsteps....malky schwartz runs it and she was in the book the unchosen as well.
end result: it points back to the same direction where every story starts from.
its sad that some people are so bored they have nothing what to do with their time,they just try to make others lives miserable.
Every community,religion and culture has their downsides and flaws but that doesnt mean that the dirty laundry needs to be aired. there are other ways of dealing with such situations.
I blame the parents,rabbis and the community leaders for focusing on the wrong things and not teaching young boys and girls the foundations of having a happy,strong and fulfilling marriage. instead they focus on worms in the water,chinese hair and other non sense. its time they wake up and guide our youth in the right direction!!!!
may we all have a gezinte winter and a tragedy free year with only simchas!

228

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:04 PM humble angel Says:

Instead of making a big deal of this news, I think it just shows that we are all "human beings". And no matter who you are, or where you come from, or what religious life you may or may not lead, we are "all" prone to such matters of the heart.
It should come as no great shock to anyone. It doesn't to me. To read the lines of these folks being so "pious" is so far from the truth that many of us already are well aware of this. NO one is so pious as to be without sin through their entire life. I don't care where or who they come from. Each of us is born with original sin, simple as that.
There is only One who is without sin.
To read comments about such a perfect life - there simply is no such thing out there. We all have problems!
I can't think of one group that does not have marriage, fidelity problems. Not one. Welcome to reality.
It certainly doesn't take away from this particular culture or way of life either. There are bad apples in every single barrel, folks. I don't care which one you claim to be from. There simple is no such thing as "perfection" in anyone's world.
Some marriages make it, some don't. Some have affairs, some don't. We each have the gift of "choice" - and we each make our own choices, regardless of what life we may come from.
I think we should focus on trying to be more accountable to every human being. Help those who are in need. Deliver justice where it needs to be delivered. Love your enemies instead of trying to seek revenge. Create more positive things, thoughts, events as opposed to trying to hurt others.
This group of people are no different than any other group of people. They don't belong on any pedestal. They are human like you and I. Allow them to be just that.
Let us do well to remember, that even Moses never saw the promise land, did he? Because he too, was not perfect. There are many such examples for all to study.
I don't consider myself better than anyone; and I don't consider any other group better than I either.
We all get only one chance to do something amazing with our lives. Just one. Let's concentrate on that instead of trying to smear anyone else who is traveling on the same road as we are.
Just my two cents for what it's worth;
two cents.

229

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:03 PM Frank Says:

Does anyone realize that in the CBS story the people interviewed are NOT "frum".


So why are we acting shocked? We have a molestor problem and a spouse cheating problem and even writing this I would still venture to write that it's a few hundred people at the most?


We have 2 million frum people and a few hundred will not ruin us.

230

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #228  
humble angel Says:

Instead of making a big deal of this news, I think it just shows that we are all "human beings". And no matter who you are, or where you come from, or what religious life you may or may not lead, we are "all" prone to such matters of the heart.
It should come as no great shock to anyone. It doesn't to me. To read the lines of these folks being so "pious" is so far from the truth that many of us already are well aware of this. NO one is so pious as to be without sin through their entire life. I don't care where or who they come from. Each of us is born with original sin, simple as that.
There is only One who is without sin.
To read comments about such a perfect life - there simply is no such thing out there. We all have problems!
I can't think of one group that does not have marriage, fidelity problems. Not one. Welcome to reality.
It certainly doesn't take away from this particular culture or way of life either. There are bad apples in every single barrel, folks. I don't care which one you claim to be from. There simple is no such thing as "perfection" in anyone's world.
Some marriages make it, some don't. Some have affairs, some don't. We each have the gift of "choice" - and we each make our own choices, regardless of what life we may come from.
I think we should focus on trying to be more accountable to every human being. Help those who are in need. Deliver justice where it needs to be delivered. Love your enemies instead of trying to seek revenge. Create more positive things, thoughts, events as opposed to trying to hurt others.
This group of people are no different than any other group of people. They don't belong on any pedestal. They are human like you and I. Allow them to be just that.
Let us do well to remember, that even Moses never saw the promise land, did he? Because he too, was not perfect. There are many such examples for all to study.
I don't consider myself better than anyone; and I don't consider any other group better than I either.
We all get only one chance to do something amazing with our lives. Just one. Let's concentrate on that instead of trying to smear anyone else who is traveling on the same road as we are.
Just my two cents for what it's worth;
two cents.

actually your 2 cents is worth much more! i loved every word you wrote. i posted the comment right before yours and i couldnt have said it better myself!

231

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #212  
Anonymous Says:

Read what I responded to before you start passing around insults.

A previous writer wrote about 'rosho'im who cannot control themselves).

My point was that ONLY because we have bechira chofshis can we be considered resho'im when we sin. If resho'im only did avairos because they lack the ability to control themselves they would not be called resho'im.

A rosha DOES not control himself, not CANNOT control himself.

cannot control himslef is figure of speech meaning he could not control himself in that situation. your midayik in my words too much. agav there is a steipler that brings there are avayros that a person does not have bechira for.

232

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:30 PM Anonymous Says:

who in the world is this leah???? it must be a hoax, l live in williamsburg and I cant figure this out...

233

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:28 PM Babishka Says:

Secular people like to watch programs and read books about frum Jews, Mormons, Amish, Catholic priests, Baptist ministers, acting once in a while the same way that seculars act all the time, and it makes them feel better about themselves: "Look, they are just as immoral as we are!"

234

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:19 PM feivel Says:

How amazing. Where are the hasidic leaders now? Why dont they come and make a public statement. Its time for the leadership to tell their disciples that hasidim need to integrate more in to society. If the leaders would tell them that prearranged marraiges dont work and allow them to decide for themselves who they want to marry and love they could avoid this problem all together.

235

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:18 PM MP Says:

CBS is compiling a report how our Yeshivos education is in dire situation.

Who are the two "whistle blowers"? You guessed it - Yossi and Leah.

Parents, Yeshivahs, Rabbis, Arranged Marriage what else?

At least one of the two in this CBS report has admitted "had they grown up in a secular home, they would become Hassidic".

Some people have a tendency to rebel while others are in bad situations - no love - that pushes them.

My advice: love love love (your children - of course).

If kids grow up without love, that's what they will do. changing the dating system or any other system is pure excuses.

I'm not saying everything is perfect in our system, but for VIN to make such a big deal about a few misfits and looking for the root cause - Gimme a break!

236

 Nov 25, 2008 at 07:45 PM tootired Says:

Reply to #23  
MS Says:

Yossi's english is remarkably accent-free for someone who was supposedly raised Hassiddic. It sure sounds that English (and not Yiddish) was his first language -- and a midwestern English at that.

As for the special report, I'm surprised to know that two individuals constitute a trend.

His voice was digitized.

237

 Nov 25, 2008 at 08:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #219  
Anonymous Says:

What if you're married with someone who you have nothing in common with and who you're not in love with, yet you have a full family. Divorce is not an option becuase of the kids. Therepy was already tried but didn't work. What is there to do? Be miserable your entire life, come home in a bad mood every night?

That gives you the green light to... Deal with it, fix it, but don't do what its not right!

238

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #231  
Anonymous Says:

cannot control himslef is figure of speech meaning he could not control himself in that situation. your midayik in my words too much. agav there is a steipler that brings there are avayros that a person does not have bechira for.

Would you happen to have a ma'amar makom for that? It seems to fly in the face of the Rambam and Rabainu Bachya and Rabbainu Chananel, to name just a few.

239

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:08 PM frumster Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

I think that there is no need to make a big deal out of a non-issue. The reporter did not find these things out on his own, but rather was fed garbage by someone that went off the derech and wants to malign us. In fact, I think that the girl is the same one that was in the New York magazine a while ago. There is no need to fall into the trap set up for us. Just move on.

Yes,I think you are right. I think she is the same one from that magazine article. wow! is she living it up!

241

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:05 PM mark G Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

Can u please say what the report was about? I dont watch television & I know nothing about it! You really spiked my curiousity!!

the report eas about adoptions in the frum community. And how is has become more popular in recent years. you dont need to read the report. just take it at face value.

242

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:48 PM boroparkyenta Says:

Reply to #191  
anonymous Says:

The whole discussion is a moot question. One has to look what is the percentile of marriages which went off the derech in ratio to beautiful marriages. I am a survivor of 4 years concentration camp. With hashem yisborach's help I am married 47 years have grandchildren , one a chushiver with a strajmel. Nothing is perfect and bnei yisroel sinned with eygel at har sinai

You should be blessed with good health to enjoy your nachas for many more years! CBS should do an interview with a few very happily married chasidish people who can educate the world about happiness and fulfillment.
There are hundreds of thousands of very happily married couples out there with their lives being full of joy. Just join partners in torah, connect with someone out there who is not frum and would love to be, hear about their lives, and see what they are missing to fully appreciate what we have. The yetzer hara is strong, but the overwhelming success of this generation in torah and chesed will beat down that awful desire to sin. It is up to each individual to increase their goodness and bring a kiddush Hashem into the world. The Nazis tried and did not succeed, the Torah and its derech is here to stay. It makes no difference which way you choose, if you dont want to be so chasidish, you could be less so without becoming frei altogether. The grass is definitely not greener on the other side. It takes some intelligence and faith to realize that we have the greatest gift of all time, and we are the luckiest people in the world. Sinning is nothing new, it has existed since the beginning of time, it has nothing to do with the internet or any other influence.....all of these things went on 30, 40, 50, 60, or even more years ago. The internet is here to stay. So is the fact that many people are online for parnasa and stay away from sites that are not for them.

243

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #236  
tootired Says:

His voice was digitized.

The digitizing does not remove the accent.

244

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:29 PM Yonason Says:

Reply to #228  
humble angel Says:

Instead of making a big deal of this news, I think it just shows that we are all "human beings". And no matter who you are, or where you come from, or what religious life you may or may not lead, we are "all" prone to such matters of the heart.
It should come as no great shock to anyone. It doesn't to me. To read the lines of these folks being so "pious" is so far from the truth that many of us already are well aware of this. NO one is so pious as to be without sin through their entire life. I don't care where or who they come from. Each of us is born with original sin, simple as that.
There is only One who is without sin.
To read comments about such a perfect life - there simply is no such thing out there. We all have problems!
I can't think of one group that does not have marriage, fidelity problems. Not one. Welcome to reality.
It certainly doesn't take away from this particular culture or way of life either. There are bad apples in every single barrel, folks. I don't care which one you claim to be from. There simple is no such thing as "perfection" in anyone's world.
Some marriages make it, some don't. Some have affairs, some don't. We each have the gift of "choice" - and we each make our own choices, regardless of what life we may come from.
I think we should focus on trying to be more accountable to every human being. Help those who are in need. Deliver justice where it needs to be delivered. Love your enemies instead of trying to seek revenge. Create more positive things, thoughts, events as opposed to trying to hurt others.
This group of people are no different than any other group of people. They don't belong on any pedestal. They are human like you and I. Allow them to be just that.
Let us do well to remember, that even Moses never saw the promise land, did he? Because he too, was not perfect. There are many such examples for all to study.
I don't consider myself better than anyone; and I don't consider any other group better than I either.
We all get only one chance to do something amazing with our lives. Just one. Let's concentrate on that instead of trying to smear anyone else who is traveling on the same road as we are.
Just my two cents for what it's worth;
two cents.

I wonder what are your roots? You mention "original sin?" This is a fundemental Catholic concept alien to Yiddishkeit. Yiddishkeit simply does not believe people are "born with original sin," as you state in your post.

245

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #198  
Not happy Says:

Who says you have to be happy in life?
Also, who says you can do whatever you want (any aveirah) just because you are not happy?

When I went to a rav about problems in my marriage and said I wasn't happy, he said , So who's happy? 95% of the people are not happy. And to Hudy who thinks that men and women can divorce, do you know anything about Jewish divorce laws??? Only the man can "give" a get.

246

 Nov 25, 2008 at 09:09 PM seicheldig geredt Says:

Reply to #234  
feivel Says:

How amazing. Where are the hasidic leaders now? Why dont they come and make a public statement. Its time for the leadership to tell their disciples that hasidim need to integrate more in to society. If the leaders would tell them that prearranged marraiges dont work and allow them to decide for themselves who they want to marry and love they could avoid this problem all together.

#1people like you had brought the Rabbonim down a long time ago. #2 no need to respond to a couple ho.... kids who want to do anything and everything with anyone

247

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:13 PM Rabbi S. Says:

Reply to #34  
happily married Says:

I agree that there is a serious problem in the frum world where young boys and girls are not prepared for life in the way of relationships. Mostly we learn from parents, seeing them relate with one another in a respectable and loving manner but what of those that do not see this at home and start off a marrriage on the wrong foot? As was reported on the frum websites(I think VIN) there needs to be a lot more education for the young boys and girls in the area of day to day relationships and forsure intimacy. Probably most couples grow into it but the question remains why would we take a chance and why let young people go through hard times till they grow fond of each other. We can remedy this by educating the youth(not just on their wedding day how to be intimate when they get home from their wedding). There should be much more feelings for one another and by shunning it we are not helping anyone. Intimacy is the way of life and hashem created us with desires so we should know how to express them in proper way. I am sure that dr. Benzion Twersky can give us a lot of insight on the problem in the community as he deals with it on a daily basis and how to properly remedy it.

Fecch,what shmuts! Desire? what desire? this for goyim only! We are yiddish,we dont need or kare for this shmutz, you make merriege,and you make family. Vat more you vant? you vant to be Goyish? then go reid goyish magezines. you are destroying yiddish.chassiddish peoples. stop now!

248

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #244  
Yonason Says:

I wonder what are your roots? You mention "original sin?" This is a fundemental Catholic concept alien to Yiddishkeit. Yiddishkeit simply does not believe people are "born with original sin," as you state in your post.

Everyone is born with a Yetser Hora clearly

249

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM Yonason Says:

Reply to #247  
Rabbi S. Says:

Fecch,what shmuts! Desire? what desire? this for goyim only! We are yiddish,we dont need or kare for this shmutz, you make merriege,and you make family. Vat more you vant? you vant to be Goyish? then go reid goyish magezines. you are destroying yiddish.chassiddish peoples. stop now!

Your taina on #34 makes no sense. You say "desires are for Goyim! Ada raba, #34 speaks of principles that come straight from Torah, no? We do have taivas . . . taivas that directed by Torah, not denied by Torah. What she says is both realistic and sensitive - and is not anti-Torah.

250

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:33 PM JICkY Says:

Why dosent CBS come to me im a chasidishe frime businessman with a happy wife and family and zise lechtige kinder kein ein hora and i promise u that im more happy then the CBS reporter hashem should help us further IYH y dont they interview me? why do they pick junk and trash for their interviews ?

251

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM sechel hayosher Says:

Why do we need to respond to this article. We are doing exactly what CBS wants. Let us not belittle ourselves - or our religion - by responding. Please!

252

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM soul sister Says:

If someone is unhappy with their life, be it with how they were raised, or what society they grew up in, why not search for a better way? The internet is full of
great cites to explore yiddishkeit. Their is chabad. org or Aish hatora.!!!!!
Remember, which ever path a person WANTS to chose HASHEM will help him...
chose wisely.





253

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:29 PM Anonymous Says:

i left my "ultra orthodox" ways and married a jewish boy if i would have listed to what my parents and rabbi wanted for me i possibly would have committed suicide or would have divorced my “picked “husband thank g-d i had enough brains and guts to stick up for myself i'm happily married 28 yrs it took my family (parents and siblings) a long time to start to except the fact that i'm not chasidich they still have a hard time with the way i brought up my bais yaakov girls and ytv sons whenever we go to family simchas you'd think by now they'd except us (the way we dress yes all tznius but NOT their way) my daughter wear high heels and yes make up they are all over 18 and oh my g-d prefer to have a carrier before they settle down yes it very hard to live the way “they say we should but to have a ling (for lack of a better word) is no excuse get devoiced or better yet leave that way of life before you hurt someone

254

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #111  
Anonymous Says:

These 2 individuals really do not belong in this feature, because the feature was all about cheating WITHIN the community. These 2 people have obviously left the community, so they don't belong in this at all.

And which friends of your do you want to be interviewed?

255

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #102  
Anonymous Says:

Many women go off the derech or cheat on their husbands cause all them men do is wake up socialize in shul 3 times a day work and feed their internet addiction. The minute they walk into the house they are on the computer and if woman and children to do not exist in his home. Maybe ask her how was her day? Do you need help? Want to talk? chill?

Wow, you sound like one bitter woman!

256

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #232  
Anonymous Says:

who in the world is this leah???? it must be a hoax, l live in williamsburg and I cant figure this out...

Because you live in Williamsburgh you dont know who "Leah" is. Thats not her real name. Her initials are R.B. She lived in one town upstate and now lives in another area upstate. Knowing who she is, wont make a difference. The people who do know daven for her children. Please, if their mother wont sheild them from this embarresment, we should.

257

 Nov 25, 2008 at 10:53 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #238  
Anonymous Says:

Would you happen to have a ma'amar makom for that? It seems to fly in the face of the Rambam and Rabainu Bachya and Rabbainu Chananel, to name just a few.

Mr. Anonymous. you [probably] meant "Mar'eh Makom! Reference!!!

258

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:23 PM Obama Bin Ladin Says:

I think this CBS-2 story is something we should be proud of. If it wasn't a chidush it wouldn't be newsworthy.

259

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #234  
feivel Says:

How amazing. Where are the hasidic leaders now? Why dont they come and make a public statement. Its time for the leadership to tell their disciples that hasidim need to integrate more in to society. If the leaders would tell them that prearranged marraiges dont work and allow them to decide for themselves who they want to marry and love they could avoid this problem all together.

they are to busy with nucam rosenburg

260

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:34 PM JICKY Says:

To 207
It sounds that leah had to young kids and she cant handle them ...her husband wishes and is waiting for the kids let her give them up she wont have the problem with them and her husband will be so happy to raise his kids as heimishe yidishe kinder ...

261

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:29 PM Anonymous Says:

This article needs along response but basically we should know that the roots of our system is right we should not be ashame of our tradition in finding our zivug ,as yankel put it there are much more devorces in the seculer world we believe that by adopting any means contrary to our traditions no good will come out of that. we beleive that a shiduch is bashert, although we know that someone can get a shiduch that is not his zivug but this probabley unusual , We don't have to get any lessons from CBS and not from Dr Tendler we our proud of our traditions and as yankel said Adultry is not a new problem, just read the great comments by Rabbi horowits that we should continue sheltering and protecting our children in a reasonable way and the root of most problems are that we don't understand the beauty of Torah life we should learn "mesilas yeshorim" and choves Halvoves and other muser seforim just to understand the reason of creating human beings and the luckines of being a torah jew, Also Don't forget the fact that the torah allows a get if marriage is miserable and by having people break and betrayed jewish law as CBS puts it does not undermine our way of life, Also we should also not deny the fact that todays exposure espacially the internet is a huge factor in many cases, can anyone say that we should not protect our children and our selfes from that danger. Finally The only way of protecting our futue is to educate ourselfs and our children with the right haskofos and strongly understand that true happines for a yid only comes by observing a real torah life with our hearts we dont need any education from goyem and modern orthodox society.

These comments does not undermine the importance of doing everything we can to help every single drop out of a heilige yidishe noshoma, we are in big trouble but it should be handled with a pure daas torah

262

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:52 PM Eli Says:

Reply to #229  
Frank Says:

Does anyone realize that in the CBS story the people interviewed are NOT "frum".


So why are we acting shocked? We have a molestor problem and a spouse cheating problem and even writing this I would still venture to write that it's a few hundred people at the most?


We have 2 million frum people and a few hundred will not ruin us.

Are you joking?! There are not even close to 2 million frum jews in the world (unfortunately) and the number of offenders is more than a couple hundred (unfortunately, as well).

263

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:50 PM Anonymous Says:

I realy don't undrstand what this issue is all about, Adultry is not a new problem we find it in old "Tshuva seforim" It dosn't make it acceptable at all of course but lets face the fact we all know that a yeitzer Horah exisists and in our days with all the ponography and internet etc. the problem acclerates and amplifies and just because people are doing wrong things does not mean that our system is not good in contrary we should be proud of it, in the other hand we should be "melamed zchus" on people like Yossi & Leah we assume that you went trough alot of agony etc. before making that decisions to we cant understand your situation but our message to people like you is Go talk to ehrliche people who will realy understand all your issues and can help you get back on track, You will never be realy happy in your lifstyles, you were created to be a observant jew and only this will make your life satisfied

264

 Nov 26, 2008 at 02:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #184  
Anonymous Says:

WRONG!!! there are no heteirim!

You lie

265

 Nov 26, 2008 at 02:10 AM moshe Says:

Wow what a great story to report on.
The stock market lost about 5-10 TRILLION dollars in the last few months people losing there jobs left and right with no money to even cover their basic needs .the economy is headed or rather is in recession with no end in sight . The goverment will probobly have a 15-20 TRILLION. Dollar deficit by 2010 which by the way we all are responsible for . The biggest and once stronget and most powerfull financial firms are either bankrupt or on their way .everybody including ny state is seeking some sort of bailout from the goverment .... And on top of all this we have an inexperianced president taking over this mess with no plan except raising taxes and killing the economy alltogether and this is the story making headlines 2 hassidic prostitutes WOW they got off cheap instead of having to report on the more important stories. great job cbs keep it up . Just look what happend to the ny times with its value plunging by 71% same will happen to you if whatever you report on is with a specific agenda rather than just reporting real news.
Don't misunderstand this problem exist but I'm talking on the part why cbs is the one publicizing this garbage .

266

 Nov 26, 2008 at 01:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
A.B.K Says:

Gun to my head, I could be a witness how true and how right they are...

1 case is too much, but those reltive few bumbs don't give a

267

 Nov 26, 2008 at 01:37 AM Anonymous Says:

#102 I couldn't but more fully agree with you. my husband was that same way, thank G-D he became aware of it himself, got rid of internet and now we are TRULY A HAPPY COUPLE AND FAMILY. He also stopped over spending time in shul and with friends. everything has a limit.

268

 Nov 26, 2008 at 01:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
A Yid Says:

the whole story is bouges!!!!!!! Y don't they have a Yossi who is still in the community?????? they only quote a yossi a DropOut a Bum!!!!!! who in any case does what he wants !!!! don't get onfused

F A C T !!!!!!
in ONE and ONLY community with the least Devorses in the Chasidic community

By far not true. our generation are spoilt and aren't educated to make a marriage work, everything is owed to us and our kids, so if they're not happy they look further.

269

 Nov 26, 2008 at 01:21 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Kiruv Says:

I happen to be slightly involved in "kiruv keroivim", I had the opportunity several times to bring back (at least in part) some troubled women out of their despair and distress.
As of my experience, the 2 most complicated cases were:
1) was a fine girl grew up in a warm fine home with loving parents, she just got "married" to the internet! even after she has done a good shiduch and married a super yungerman, she would still stay in the office 2-3 hrs 'overtime' to watch inappropriate material, it was a real addiction, it was eating sleeping and the internet. when things got so bad she was about to divorce (understandably, her husband literally had no wife..) some experts came into the picture to get to the root of the problem, at one point she just opened her heart to me and cried her breath out for nearly 2 hours, with such remorse and blame on herself how she allowed herself to get so carried away from this planet. now a few years later, after a lot of help was to her assistance, and they are a very happy couple.
2) was a young woman, 2 shiduchim were on the board when she had to make a decision, her father explained to her, that one of them M. was very good looking and handsome, but the people around him claim he has no manners, no middos and a bad attitude. on the other hand was J. also a cute boy, but not so tall and handsome as M. but with exceptional middos and very well mannered. she decided on M. she fell for his looks. right after the 'honey moon' ended, the storm started she suffered and didn't talk about it.. she was ashamed to complain to her parents, because they advised her differently before doing the shidduch. instead she started glitching off the derech, and that was so complicated, she felt like a total flop, after a few years of leading a secular life as a "single mom" she became so miserable, and then she started coming back, she's getting a tremendous amount of love of the people here, and she's now settling nicely back in her old community.
I think those stories speak for themselves.

Pls next time put he/she, the problem occurs on both ends and goes much further than your stories.

270

 Nov 26, 2008 at 12:08 AM Happy Jew Says:

what a shoddy piece of "journalism." this report sicknes me. We should sue for defamation of character. Mi Kamcha Yisroal echod B aretz. The stupid goyim had nothing else to report on , so they give this filth on two people that went off. Hashem should help them both. This is so rare in the Jewish world it's hardly worth mentioning. How can they understand the life of a Jew - no less a terrible mistake like this. The goyish nations are murderers, adulturers, and gonnovim. A chutzpah for them to dictate what is "wrong" with the Jewish communities. We have Rebbeim to guide us with Das Torah. That is what lasts - not their worthless opinions and destructive tv shows. How many of those newscasters cheat on their wives???

271

 Nov 26, 2008 at 12:04 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #130  
very happy frum woman Says:

I am hasidic, I live in williamsburg,I got married at 20,and I am very very very happy with my husband that I chose!! Before I met my husband the first time (my parents chose him from a very long list) my parents told me that I can talk to him for a long as I wish and that I do not have to engage him only if I WANT. The minute he walked into bshow (the arrainged meeting for a girl and a boy in the hasidic world) we fell in love. We spoke for an hour, and got engaged the same day. The next time we spoke again was a month later by our engagement party. And the next time we spoke again was 6 months later by our wedding. Now, I did meet him a couple of times during our engagement by weddings etc. but then it was just a smile and hello and thats it. Yes, this is the way MOST of our community practice. But, there are some that talk more often and then there are some that DONT> and probably Leah and Yossi families fall into the latter category.
When I was engaged I used to think all day long of my chosson, I dreamed all night of him too. I was sooo excited to get married, I just couldn't wait to live with him. And yes this is the way I want my kids to follow too.
I have to most wonderful and inimate relationship with the man I love, THE MAN MY PARENTS HELPED ME CHOOSE, the man I prayed for, my partner in life.

hey there 'HASSIDIC' girl that had 'BSHOW'.......... im so so so so so happy for ya that u r very very very very happy and intimate and in love w/ ur dh....... but how in the world can u fall in 'LOVE' in 1/2 second??????

272

 Nov 26, 2008 at 12:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #118  
Anonymous Says:

I believe you are the first kollel yungerman I've ever met who describes himself as a 'kollel guy' so I didn't bother reading the rest of what you wrote and I'd advise everyone else to consider carefully if whatever you wrote was written by someone who spends his days immersed in torah. Besides, if you are a 'kollel guy' what the heck are you doing on the internet? Does your roish kollel know you have internet in your home and have nothing better to do than read and comment on VIN? (Bad enough we learner/earners have so much time for the 'net.)

how come so many others have the internet that are posting here

273

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:55 PM esther Says:

Reply to #224  
Anonymous Says:

Who is she? Whats her real name?

her initials are S.B.

274

 Nov 25, 2008 at 11:55 PM Yankel Says:

Reply to #167  
Anonymous Says:

Some want to think that in the chassidishe world you get married via a shidduch and then find yourself in a bed with a complete stranger -- as if that is a catastrophe and everyone in the chassidishe system is a victim... and as I heard it being said by this pathetic woman, I wondered how is this so different from the way secular society operates? So you think it's going to be better there?

The difference is that in secular society, there is no wedding or commitment, it's all about self-gratification and considered the norm to go out to a bar and just end up in a bed with a complete stranger a few hours later... And then another stranger the next night and so forth. And this behavior is glorified, afterall, that was what the "sex and the city" tv series turned movie was all about.

I think it would be interesting to turn this around on the CBS news reporters who thought this a newsworthy story and ask them if they have ever behaved like that, ever engaged in such conduct. Ever ended up in a bed with a practical stranger. How many times did that happen to them and what did they do afterwards? Did they call the tv stations and think their personal experience was really newsworthy?

Truthfully, I think the organization Footsteps was behind this story and looking to promote themselves for fundraising purposes. From what I have heard reported, the founder is a religious woman turned anti-religious, who makes a point that non-kosher food is served there. There should be other options to Footsteps.

> From what I have heard reported, the founder is a religious woman turned anti-religious, who makes a point that non-kosher food is served there.

You are so wrong! She is not at all anti-religious in the least, and regarding your second point, it's just the opposite: they make it a point to have KOSHER food, so no one should feel that they are being forced to leave frumkeit.

Their goal is not to make anyone not frum. It's to give people the support and help they need, if they've already decided that's the step they want to take.

275

 Nov 26, 2008 at 07:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #274  
Yankel Says:

> From what I have heard reported, the founder is a religious woman turned anti-religious, who makes a point that non-kosher food is served there.

You are so wrong! She is not at all anti-religious in the least, and regarding your second point, it's just the opposite: they make it a point to have KOSHER food, so no one should feel that they are being forced to leave frumkeit.

Their goal is not to make anyone not frum. It's to give people the support and help they need, if they've already decided that's the step they want to take.

In any case she is a big "machatie es horabim" getting the lost neshomos settle in a way against Hashems will, closing their open vents from getting back to their roots they so often wish they could get back there.
This footsteps and its founder is a disgrace and total shanda, a special gehinom was customized for this skunk.

276

 Nov 26, 2008 at 07:40 AM JICKY Says:

I dont know who Yossi is But leah AKA RB had a good husband not a farfrimte a happy joly yingerman and she just went of the derech for no good reason hanging around in gas stations with goyim and lowlife she did not make of her life
Anything worthful she is looking for some attention what she is not getting nowhere because ---
So she goes to CBS and gets some attention what we should realy ignore

277

 Nov 26, 2008 at 08:09 AM Nachman Says:

Raboisy --
The kop likt in shmutz. If the fathers would learn the gemoro or mishnayoth etc ... that the children learn in school and chazer with them the toichen on the way to shul in shul in the house (vshinantom lvonecho ...)it would be healthier for father son and the whole family.

278

 Nov 26, 2008 at 10:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #234  
feivel Says:

How amazing. Where are the hasidic leaders now? Why dont they come and make a public statement. Its time for the leadership to tell their disciples that hasidim need to integrate more in to society. If the leaders would tell them that prearranged marraiges dont work and allow them to decide for themselves who they want to marry and love they could avoid this problem all together.

to all of you who are shouting where are the leaders in this, i ask you-is president bush gonna run after every little shmo who decides to steal a couple of dollars from someone in the street? or will he start bashing in public the person who decides to just drive on red? your comments are so ignoramous!!! tell me one reason why a respected hassidic leader should lower himself to speak about this dispicable lowlife who has absolutely nothing to do with yiddishkeit!! what's it gonna help for everyone else? at this point this person is as far from the hassidic leaders as i am from stolin...
next time you start bashing rabbonim, thin about it for a minute b/c rabbonim are choshuve people who KNOW and i repeat THEY KNOW what they are doing and they KNOW what goes on in the world, and if they're not getting involved in something then they KNOW that they shouldn't....

279

 Nov 26, 2008 at 11:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Cusid Says:

Last week thier was a poll in the news ny post etc. that 60 - 70 % of men say they had an affair so i'm still proud to be a cussid even if we have 5% bad appels becuse i can assure you this problem is maybe by 5% of merriges in willy anyways

Very well said!!!

280

 Nov 26, 2008 at 01:56 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #235  
MP Says:

CBS is compiling a report how our Yeshivos education is in dire situation.

Who are the two "whistle blowers"? You guessed it - Yossi and Leah.

Parents, Yeshivahs, Rabbis, Arranged Marriage what else?

At least one of the two in this CBS report has admitted "had they grown up in a secular home, they would become Hassidic".

Some people have a tendency to rebel while others are in bad situations - no love - that pushes them.

My advice: love love love (your children - of course).

If kids grow up without love, that's what they will do. changing the dating system or any other system is pure excuses.

I'm not saying everything is perfect in our system, but for VIN to make such a big deal about a few misfits and looking for the root cause - Gimme a break!

Yup! I support ur point 100%! Thats the #1 step in 'chinuch'...... But the teachers and preachers have to b aware of it as well..... i've listened to many chinush shirum , and i rarely heard the point 'LOVE'......... 'LOVE' ur child....... show 'LOVE'.......!!!!!! It is so important........... Unfortunately i have survived my childhood w/ a lack of love from my parents.. and so did alot of ppl out there.... These kids r not to blame..

281

 Nov 26, 2008 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:

It's not just happening in the Chassicha world it's happening in the Ltvesha world as well. It's coming out in the open. We must appeal to our Gedolim for help.

282

 Nov 26, 2008 at 04:14 PM Anonymous Says:

We Live in a sick society.

283

 Nov 26, 2008 at 11:12 PM Man in loveless marriage Says:

Reply to #208  
leah Says:

men will find there love either at home or somewhere else.. its up to the baalebustes too..

While I agree women should do their part for sholom, most frum men will not look elsewhere until this relationship is ended. You should give us more credit. We are stronger than you think.

284

 Nov 27, 2008 at 02:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #171  
Babishka Says:

"Footsteps" was founded by Malky Schwartz after she received $1 million from her secular grandmother to leave Yiddishkeit, and so the grandmother could get a tax break.

Babishka, what is the source of this juicy information? I suspect that you, or someone else with a similar agenda, cooked up this fabrication.
All tax-deductible charitable donations are in the public record, so if your claim is true it shouldn't be hard to verify. Until you do so, I will consider it sheker and rakhlones, and encourage everyone who reads this post to do the same.

285

 Nov 27, 2008 at 04:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
MS Says:

Yossi's english is remarkably accent-free for someone who was supposedly raised Hassiddic. It sure sounds that English (and not Yiddish) was his first language -- and a midwestern English at that.

As for the special report, I'm surprised to know that two individuals constitute a trend.

I had the same suspicions, the accent is definitely not even a NY accent…. Forget about an ultra-Hassidic…. something is amiss ...

286

 Nov 27, 2008 at 05:15 PM Anonymous Says:

i think u r all missing the point. I know many chasidishe guys in good marriages & are shtark frum but they have a yetzer horo. Some fight it - some give in & even those that give in - do it in deifferent ways. They find people in frum chat rooms,

287

 Nov 27, 2008 at 04:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #238  
Anonymous Says:

Would you happen to have a ma'amar makom for that? It seems to fly in the face of the Rambam and Rabainu Bachya and Rabbainu Chananel, to name just a few.

Boy are you confused!! ... whatever it is…it certainly does not pertain to any of us or theses cases… and it’s not the Steipler…. It’s a famous piece written by the holy Ishbitzer zt’l in his sefer Mey haSheloach (Parshat pinchas), in regards to Zimri how he stooped to the level., and he did what he did. … and so is this concept mentioned by his disciple Rav Zodik haKohen from Lublin. ..... BTW that piece took the hasiddic world by storm..some came out very strong against it, thus avoiding the entire Sefer...

288

 Nov 27, 2008 at 08:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
cher Says:

I don't think its pathetic for cbs to do a story on this. It's a human interest story. I find it very interesting, and I'm part of the community. To goyim or outsiders who wonder what goes on in such a different, closed community this is very interesting. CBS is just doing what they do best- writing interesting stories that ppl. want to read. don't be mad at them.


Agree with you. And not only that...think about it - as it is with today’s society any news involving ...these issues and behaviors is always successful sell out … look at the TV shows, movies, books...etc..

289

 Nov 27, 2008 at 10:17 PM klutz!!! Says:

Misery loves company... (i'ts about it)

290

 Nov 27, 2008 at 11:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you are 100% right but we need to avoid this from happenibg again

291

 Nov 30, 2008 at 10:35 PM Moishe Says:

Reply to #10  
yankel Says:

Why don't they do a story on how 95 % or more of the hasidic community do have a happy family life in contrast to the secular "open" world who are supposed to be the happy ones around.
70% commit adultry in their liftime .
murders and crime .
married and divorced , married and divorced ,married and divorced and are never happy .
I'm not saying that our community is problem free but just because two unhappy neshomos which by the way are still not happy went to get some attention from the media which loves such stories doesn't mean we should downplay and bashmutz our beautiful community.
don't be ashamed of being a yid with traditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

95% happy marriages?

Go do your homework.

People used to wrongly cite the low divorce rate as some sort of ‘proof’ to the health and workability of the chassidishe shiduch system. We now know better then that.

The facts are that Divorces were very much stigmatized, while there was no bedding-in period before large scale families sprung up, and the expectation of a happy and fulfilled life was always trumped by gems such as “leb shoin ois the zibetzig yahr”, “Es iz goornisht, yeider macht mit”, etc. As a result you had all those “95% happy families” you are alluding too. Or should i make it 90%, to allow for the minority that are actually good.

Today divirces are no longer such a stigma, Girls are smarter and are increasingly taking precaution not to fall pregnant before nayone can say hello, people do have expectations of a better life, expectations of choice, expectations of common ground, expectations of being able to verbalize needs and wants and not be patronized by them.

Result? Divorce rates sky-rocketing, and stories of adultery or collaborated infringements so commonplace.

I remember a 55 year old in shul, who was trying to put a tableful of yungeleit into their place. They were debating the merits of our shiduch system. He slung out a simple question; Who on this table truly and deeply loves their wife?

Result; deafening silence!

There goes your 95% success rate.

292

 Dec 02, 2008 at 11:08 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
mimi Says:

How beautiful! Yossi is ok with his kids remaining in the ultra orthodox community.
Isn't that ironic!
A poshiter yiddene!

That is so ironic but holds true for a lot people like yossi. I have a good freind that leider went of the derech and has a few kids. But he does insist that his kids stay within the chasidishe community even he left it. It's because when your in the secular world you witness the "imertzoigenkeit" of the kids there. so even with our problems, those who left the community, still want thier children to brought up in a cultured environment.

also being so close to someone who is a dropout you come to relize that even a goyesh leben sound glamerous with no restriction they are not happy and face the same troubles all along.

you can't run away from you issues you have to deal with them.

293

 Dec 02, 2008 at 09:32 PM Moishe2709 Says:

Personally, I can attest to that when you leave the "box" to try out other things around your community, you are bound to have troubles, as you are not used to this way of life. I think that being stuck up inside a yeshivish, or chashidishe community with no means of outside life is hurtful to the child and everyone else too. The child may not always be intrested in this kind of life, and at times he may feel that he wants to get out and see the other side of the world. That is where the trouble starts.
Once he goes out there, he is shunned (right word?) from the community, and is never accepted back. And thus he goes further and further away from yiddishkeit.
If there would be just abit of acceptance that not everyone is fitted for the yeshivish velt, than it would make it alot easier for the child - or young bochur- to truly find his place in the world. I think that is the biggest problem with the yeshivos today.
We have to realize not everyone is a masmid, and that it is takeh -each to his own-
We just have to learn ourselves on how to deal with it, so as not to make the person feel that he is being pushed awayfrom the community.
In that sense, we would have alot less young bochurim that would want to go completely off the derech, and we would understand where they are standing in life.
Which in the end, we would know how to help them in what they are intrested, and be able to direct them in that way of life with them still wanting to live a frum life.

294

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