RSS Feed
Washington - Rabbi Shemtov Recounts His Conversation With The Terrorists In Chabad House |
|
| |
Text Size
|
Rabbi Levi Shemtov
Rabbi Levi Shemtov said he made contact with the gunman when he called the cellphone of Gavriel Holtzberg, one of the hostages at the Chabad House, after the attack began on Wednesday.
Shemtov, of Washington, D.C., is a member of Chabad-Lubavitch, the same Hasidic sect that sent Holtzberg and his wife, Rivkah, as envoys to work with Jewish residents and travelers in Mumbai.
"I tried and tried and tried, and in the end someone answered and said 'hello,'" Shemtov told Israel's Army Radio. Someone answered and said he was an Urdu speaker, so Shem-Tov found an Urdu speaker and dialed again. The man who answered "sounded very calm" and said his name was "Imran."
"He didn't want to tell me what he wanted. He said the rabbi was OK, everyone was OK, that if they did what he wanted he would free them." Shemtov asked the man not to hurt the hostages and promised to help him get in touch with the Indian government.
"I asked him to pass the phone to the rabbi. He said, 'You've already asked for too much.'"
Shemtov called repeatedly, estimating he spoke to the man around five times. Eventually the assailant said the battery was dying and hung up.
A law enforcement source who asked to remain anonymous with knowledge of the situation, confirmed to VIN News that the FBI was in fact involved both in New York and Washington, helping Rabbi Shemtov to deal with the conversation.
More of today's headlines
“India - A top Russian counter-terrorism expert on Sunday underlined that the Mumbai attackers were not "ordinary terrorists" and were probably. trained by the special...”
India - Top Russian Counter-terrorism Expert: Mumbai Terrorists Trained By U.S. Experts In Pakistan To Fight Afghanistan
Washington - Mumbai A Sad Warning that U.S. Remains Vulnerable
Total56
Read Comments (56) — Post Yours »
1
Nov 30, 2008 at 12:23 PM Anonymous Says:
when did he hear the voice which night
2
Nov 30, 2008 at 12:29 PM Gefilte Fish Says:
If not for India's lousy commandos they could have still been alive.
השם ינקום דמם
3
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:09 PM Anonymous Says:
nebech . this is so very heartbreaking.. nehbehchh oy vey vey....what else can we say
4
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:22 PM Anonymous Says:
I think it's pretty obvious from the position which rabbi Teitelboum is lying with the book under his head that he was killed while already on the floor. Regardless if he was standing next to the book case or on the chair, he would have not fallen that way especially with a book under his head.
5
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If not for India's lousy commandos they could have still been alive.
השם ינקום דמם ”
mayhaychi taysi? how do you storm a large house and kill multiple terrorists before they have a chance to kill bound hostages? if you have an easy answer, you must be very smart. don't look to blame the indians, blame the cursed muslims.
6
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:23 PM Anonymous Says:
india is a lousy third-world backward country. a bunch of dal-gavve's who wouldnt allow the israeli commandos to the job, which they so spectacularly (and predictably) botched up. just look at the picture of their pm, sitting next to president bush, and looking like a real golem. disgusting
7
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:02 PM grateful Says:
“ If not for India's lousy commandos they could have still been alive.
השם ינקום דמם ”
Please, how dare you blame ANYONE going into harms way to protect, or try at least, the innocents.
If you have a problem with 'India's lousy commando's', get off your computer and go volunteer. Until then, bide your speech.
8
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:49 PM Anonymous Says:
So if everyone was fine according to the conversation of the terrorist with Rabbi Shemtov, how was it that the baby Moshe had blood on him when he was removed by the Indian woman? When did it happen, and when did Rabbi Shemtov talk to him 6 times? And if there were terrorists there, why are there just people standing around in the photo? And if there were already terrorists in the building, so how would it have been possible for Leibush Teitelbaum to be learning gemara??!! I smell a coverup. A big coverup. And if anyone knows the details of it it will be the MOSSAD.
The Indians say only 10 bochurim were involved. This is definitely a lie. They planned to kill 5000 people with only 10 kids with a few guns distributed around the city??!! It's all impossible.....
9
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:48 PM Anonymous Says:
I am not a commando and not interested in being one. The blame, of course, belongs to the terrorists. I do, however, feel that India did a very lousy job. Remember there were only 2 terrorist in that 6 story house. Isreal most likely would have blown a hole or few in the house within the first few hours, while engaging them from the roof as well. They would have most likely saved some of the hostages, not all. I am also not so sure who killed them, bullets were flying all over, how do you know who was killed by whom. Rabbi Teitelbaum is seen in one of the pictures on VIN, he is lying with his head on a book, seems from the way he is lying that he was killed while learning on the floor to protect himself from the ensuing battle between both sides.
Of course they did their job, but they are not trained very well. If you go floor by floor rathet then engaging them from multiple locations, most likely the terrorist will kill the hostages when they feel trapped, you need to catch them off guard.
10
Nov 30, 2008 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:
The commandos were the ones that killed the jews not the muslims because when the commandos said they killed 2 muslims and said there are 3 or 4 left there were only 2 muslims so it most have bin the commandos that killed the jews
11
Nov 30, 2008 at 02:06 PM Anonymous Says:
you people need to get a grip. The blame is NOT on the Indian commandos. If you know anything about hostage situations, particularly with Islamic militants, you will know that their chances of survival wre near nothing from the start.
Please read the sit report. Bodies were bobby trapped - does that sound like they were coming out alive?
The Rebitzin was dead for some time?
Even if R' Teitelbaum ZT"L was found in front of a gemorah - you honestly believe that he was learning for the couple days they were in the place?
GET REAL - The terrorists are to blame!!! NO BADY ELSE
Name to me the number of successful raids Israel has conducted. I can think of some and none of them ended that happily
12
Nov 30, 2008 at 01:46 PM If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a TERRORIST!! Says:
Although I would also place a drop of "blame" on the Indian govt in general for not moving faster ( i think here in the USA, things would have 'appeared' to be moving faster), we need to remember that it was the terrorist murderers YEMACH SH'MOM V'ZICHROM who killed the people and nebach made recovery of the bodies very difficult to say the least.
13
Nov 30, 2008 at 12:56 PM Anonymous Says:
I pretty much feel that the indian commandos shot at anything that moved
14
Nov 30, 2008 at 02:30 PM Anonymous Says:
Raboysay, there is a huge coverup going on about this whole affair, not only the Chabad House attack.....It's not enough for Zionist sympathizers to dismiss the questions as long as Moslems get blamed. I don't care who did it, I want to know the truth. This whole operation required a large number of people, insiders and great sophistication of local power. Chabad leaders better get busy to get a full investigation going. Not like 9/11 where all the debris was carted away although it was forensic evidence at a crime site.......!!
15
Nov 30, 2008 at 02:19 PM Anonymous Says:
I was watching the commandos live on tv for hours straight- real amateurs. not that I can blame them, but the truth is they were real amateurs & I don't believe they really put themselves in harm way. the way they came out fri morning all triumphant even though they haven't saved not even one live just shows that the real mission was to kill the terrorist not save lives. a far cry from israeli standards and l'havdil even american standards.
16
Nov 30, 2008 at 02:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I pretty much feel that the indian commandos shot at anything that moved ”
im sure your feelings are very smart and tell you the truth every time...
17
Nov 30, 2008 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:
Gevalt! The report in Haaretz says they were staying at the Chabad House before!
Amir Kasab, 21, told investigators that this was why they targeted the Chabad House, also known as the Nariman House in Mumbai, an outreach center meant for local Jews and Jews touring India, including Israelis. Sources said Kasab's colleagues killed in the operation had stayed at the Nariman House in the past.
"They have stayed in Nariman house on rental basis identifying themselves as Malaysian students.'' said a source. Police were trying to determine why Nariman House rooms were given to non-Jews, the Times of India reported
18
Nov 30, 2008 at 02:47 PM Babishka Says:
“ Gevalt! The report in Haaretz says they were staying at the Chabad House before!
Amir Kasab, 21, told investigators that this was why they targeted the Chabad House, also known as the Nariman House in Mumbai, an outreach center meant for local Jews and Jews touring India, including Israelis. Sources said Kasab's colleagues killed in the operation had stayed at the Nariman House in the past.
"They have stayed in Nariman house on rental basis identifying themselves as Malaysian students.'' said a source. Police were trying to determine why Nariman House rooms were given to non-Jews, the Times of India reported ”
They were not staying at Chabad. They were renting rooms in the Nariman complex in Colaba, which includes Chabad and other apartments.
Although it would not surprise me if they ate some meals at Chabad, eating the food and chatting with people they knew they were going to kill.
19
Nov 30, 2008 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:
“ india is a lousy third-world backward country. a bunch of dal-gavve's who wouldnt allow the israeli commandos to the job, which they so spectacularly (and predictably) botched up. just look at the picture of their pm, sitting next to president bush, and looking like a real golem. disgusting ”
You are in a dream world if you think Israeli forces or American forces would have done a better job. Did India do a great job? No. Would any other team done a better job? No. The last time an Israeli tried to rescue a hostage it failed. Cpl. Nachson (hostage) and the Captain of the commandos got killed. This was with prior planning. Stop passing the blame on the Indian security forces. This is the first time in the world that terrorists carried out mutiple killing and hostage taking, simultainously. What you people should do now is demand your respective governments to start training their SWAT teams and commandos to start dealing with this kind of terrorist threat. To my knowledge no one in the world has trained for multiple attacks at the same time. We should learn from this attack and prepare if chsv's it would ever happen again. It's easy to play monday morning quarterback and say my forces would have done a better job.
It's simply not true. The only comment I can make is that American SWAT teams like to work in the dark, why the Indians needed daylight remains a question. Perhaps they don't have the equipment or the training for black operations. But they were wearing dark clothing which only makes them invisible in dark surroundings? Perhaps the uncertanny of the layout coupled with numerous hostages made them wait for daybreak. BTW, the comment that Indian forces killed the hostages isn't logical because the NSG director said not one of their bullets hit a hostage. They were taking every precaution to only shoot terrorists and that is why it took so long. Why make such a comment if it isn't true because such a thing will come out in the autopsies? And don't all you conspiracy theorists say he can control the autopsy reports; India isn't a dictatorship.
20
Nov 30, 2008 at 03:12 PM Anonymous Says:
Why couldn't they gas the place, and put everyone asleep?
Remember, Russia did that a few years ago when terrorists took over a theater.
21
Nov 30, 2008 at 05:11 PM Babishka Says:
“ Why couldn't they gas the place, and put everyone asleep?
Remember, Russia did that a few years ago when terrorists took over a theater. ”
The Taj hotel is HUGE, there is no way they could have pumped in enough gas to disable the terrorists. Remember at the Moscow theater a lot of hostages also died from the gas.
Using gas would not have saved the Yidden, they were already dead from the beginning.
22
Nov 30, 2008 at 05:03 PM Anonymous Says:
In New York and in Israel, special weapons and tactics (SWAT) teams often train for multiple simultaneous attacks. After a couple of top commanders were killed, the police and commandos may have been more cautious than usual. Certainly, to spend over 12 hours slowly attacking a house within which there are hostages, without any sort of ruse, and when the Indian media was broadcasting that India will not negotiate but instead they plan on killing all the terrorists (while the terrorists themselves could apparently listen to these media reports) suggests a level of unprofessionalism that should be of concern. Even in Munich, the German forces tried a ruse. In many hostage cases, a hostage negotiator establishes contact. Here, apparently only the Lubavitch rabbi in NY established contact.
There was also no evidence of a simultaneous attack, eg through windows, front door, and roof. Finally, they waited until daylight for their final attack.
Amazing.
23
Nov 30, 2008 at 05:16 PM Avi from Williamsburg Says:
Aich Nofli Giborim Betoch Hamilchamo. These Kedoshim our the Giborim of hashem. They perished sanctifying hashem name. Rabbi Holtsberg Could have stayed here and safe on Crown street in Crown Height, but he rather choose to live life as a Gibor in a hot and humid and dangerous city mumbai or shumumbai or however you prononce it .Atem Kerivim Hayom Lamilchomo ,Rabbi Holtsberg and his wife Rifka are the Chosen and special ones of Klal Yisroel ( Thelim 120 ) Chitzie Gibor Sheninim . Hashem only sends burdens to those who can handle them . Its a terrible blow ,very tragic we are all stunned ,shocked,saddened and profoundly in grief ,there are no words to explain it ,A gibor who dies is just overwhelming .These Giborim will be eternalized in the memories of klall yisroel as the Giborim of Klal Yisroel. imocha Hshem Dimo
24
Nov 30, 2008 at 04:49 PM kishke Says:
“ If not for India's lousy commandos they could have still been alive.
השם ינקום דמם ”
maybe they shold have called you in to work out a strategy
25
Nov 30, 2008 at 04:37 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why couldn't they gas the place, and put everyone asleep?
Remember, Russia did that a few years ago when terrorists took over a theater. ”
And many people died from the Russian gas.
26
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:40 PM Heimish Yid Says:
There is another point of view to all of this. No one denies that they died Al Kiddush Hashem. But the question remains that our Torah says NOT TO PUT YOURSELF IN HARMS WAY and when you build a shul between 25 million Indians and dont have any security, NOW ISNT THAT PUTTING YOURSELF INTO HARMS WAY?? Its all very nice to put a "chabad house" in a 3rd world country, but taking 2 young Yidden and exposing themselves with an "open" door and letting virtually anyone in, doesnt the Torah warn about that?? The Torah says " Watch yourselves, and Hashem will watch over you" and Yidden should live where other Yidden live, in a Yiddish community. Why isnt anyone addressing this?
27
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:33 PM smartboy Says:
one almost noone is talking about, and simingly is till now one of the most unanswered and explained question, who waived the white flag friday morning through a window.
there is for sure some level of cover-up...
28
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:27 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I was watching the commandos live on tv for hours straight- real amateurs. not that I can blame them, but the truth is they were real amateurs & I don't believe they really put themselves in harm way. the way they came out fri morning all triumphant even though they haven't saved not even one live just shows that the real mission was to kill the terrorist not save lives. a far cry from israeli standards and l'havdil even american standards. ”
the Russians know the best they GAS the building and they go in and take care on the terrorist, thats the way to do it. I cant understand the stupid people they have no idea how to handel a mazev like this.
29
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:06 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So if everyone was fine according to the conversation of the terrorist with Rabbi Shemtov, how was it that the baby Moshe had blood on him when he was removed by the Indian woman? When did it happen, and when did Rabbi Shemtov talk to him 6 times? And if there were terrorists there, why are there just people standing around in the photo? And if there were already terrorists in the building, so how would it have been possible for Leibush Teitelbaum to be learning gemara??!! I smell a coverup. A big coverup. And if anyone knows the details of it it will be the MOSSAD.
The Indians say only 10 bochurim were involved. This is definitely a lie. They planned to kill 5000 people with only 10 kids with a few guns distributed around the city??!! It's all impossible..... ”
You didn't understand, the photo is of R' Leibush after he was killed, the people around are the Zaka members.
About the child stained with blood, please look at the picture closely, no blood to be seen as far as we can see. Even more, Moshe is still wearing the same clothing two days later while being held by his grandfather.
30
Nov 30, 2008 at 05:41 PM yiddishe bubby Says:
not assailants, terrorists, according to reports, when the nanny ran away with moshe, the parents had already been murdered the child was sitting next to them on the floor, that was how he had blood on his clothes, this was at least a day before the commandos went into the house. Hashem yerachem what sadness this is.
31
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:46 PM Anonymous Says:
“ There is another point of view to all of this. No one denies that they died Al Kiddush Hashem. But the question remains that our Torah says NOT TO PUT YOURSELF IN HARMS WAY and when you build a shul between 25 million Indians and dont have any security, NOW ISNT THAT PUTTING YOURSELF INTO HARMS WAY?? Its all very nice to put a "chabad house" in a 3rd world country, but taking 2 young Yidden and exposing themselves with an "open" door and letting virtually anyone in, doesnt the Torah warn about that?? The Torah says " Watch yourselves, and Hashem will watch over you" and Yidden should live where other Yidden live, in a Yiddish community. Why isnt anyone addressing this? ”
Yes, you know it all. Golden spoon-fed and no mesiras nefesh whatsoever, lecturing kedoshim. FYI there was never an attack in Mumbei and is not so 3rd world, people travel there all the time. Rabbi Holtzberg had minyan almost shabbat.
32
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:53 PM lipa Says:
Or rosh hasono we say me yicya mi homos its in store who is going to live and who is going to die everything is already in store everthing is beshert it doesn't matter if they didn't do it or they did that everything heshem wants to happen happens
33
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:52 PM sad jew Says:
“ mayhaychi taysi? how do you storm a large house and kill multiple terrorists before they have a chance to kill bound hostages? if you have an easy answer, you must be very smart. don't look to blame the indians, blame the cursed muslims. ”
they didn't allow the israelis to save the yidden. instead they insisted on doing it themselves. they wanted 1/2 hr until they answered the desperate calls of chabad house neighbors. then they bombarded the building...which may in fact have killed the victims inside themselves. did n't the indians ever think of piping gas into the chabad house and then dragging the terrorists out - instead of pummeling the place with bullets
34
Nov 30, 2008 at 06:57 PM Heimish Yid Says:
Just FYI read this:India has suffered a gathering wave of Islamist terror attacks over the last five years, but it wasn't until yesterday afternoon that the terrorists really made the outside world sit up and take notice.
By targeting one of India's most iconic hotels, The Taj Mahal Palace on Mumbai's waterfront and holding hundreds of its wealthy foreign guests hostage, the Islamists have touched an international nerve at a delicate moment in the story of India's resurgence.
Despite the spate of attacks in recent years, including the 2006 train bombings in Mumbai that killed 180 people and bomb attacks this year in commercially sensitive locations of Bangalore and New Delhi, India has managed to retain its international image as a 'safe' place to visit and invest. As You can see there was a terrorist attack in Mumbei and if you check it out, it is very dangerous to live there!
35
Nov 30, 2008 at 07:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Just FYI read this:India has suffered a gathering wave of Islamist terror attacks over the last five years, but it wasn't until yesterday afternoon that the terrorists really made the outside world sit up and take notice.
By targeting one of India's most iconic hotels, The Taj Mahal Palace on Mumbai's waterfront and holding hundreds of its wealthy foreign guests hostage, the Islamists have touched an international nerve at a delicate moment in the story of India's resurgence.
Despite the spate of attacks in recent years, including the 2006 train bombings in Mumbai that killed 180 people and bomb attacks this year in commercially sensitive locations of Bangalore and New Delhi, India has managed to retain its international image as a 'safe' place to visit and invest. As You can see there was a terrorist attack in Mumbei and if you check it out, it is very dangerous to live there! ”
Every country has their terror issues including England and the US, that does not make a country like India an unsafe place to be. You mentioned one train attack in Mumbei, which was not even in the city but on a train that was headed to the border.
36
Nov 30, 2008 at 07:09 PM Anonymous Says:
“ not assailants, terrorists, according to reports, when the nanny ran away with moshe, the parents had already been murdered the child was sitting next to them on the floor, that was how he had blood on his clothes, this was at least a day before the commandos went into the house. Hashem yerachem what sadness this is. ”
Obviously the report is accurate as you can see he exiting the building and there is NO blood on his clotheing, he is still wearing the same clothing two days later when visited by his grandfather.
Also, according to Haim Weingarten, from Zaka, Rabbi Holtsberg has died last and was still alive as of Friday morning. The Talit theory is based on the fact that he was so close to his wife which would indicate that he covered he and then just staid next to her to guard.
What the nanny saw is unclear, as she has changed the story a few times. Seems that she was overwhelmed and sure herself what she saw. Rabbu Holtzberg may have plaid or was actually unconscious only to wake up later and cover his wife. He ma y have had a very slow death. According to Haim Weingarten, to put in gently, I do not believe that all hostages were indeed killed by the terrorist, but rather by a sloppy commando job.
37
Nov 30, 2008 at 07:05 PM Anonymous Says:
“ So if everyone was fine according to the conversation of the terrorist with Rabbi Shemtov, how was it that the baby Moshe had blood on him when he was removed by the Indian woman? When did it happen, and when did Rabbi Shemtov talk to him 6 times? And if there were terrorists there, why are there just people standing around in the photo? And if there were already terrorists in the building, so how would it have been possible for Leibush Teitelbaum to be learning gemara??!! I smell a coverup. A big coverup. And if anyone knows the details of it it will be the MOSSAD.
The Indians say only 10 bochurim were involved. This is definitely a lie. They planned to kill 5000 people with only 10 kids with a few guns distributed around the city??!! It's all impossible..... ”
The cynicism you express stems from your difficulty of grasping such terrible news. But it's there for you to find a level of consolation that it did not have to end this way. Some are of the opinion that this borders on Apikorses.
38
Nov 30, 2008 at 07:32 PM Anonymous Says:
“ If not for India's lousy commandos they could have still been alive.
השם ינקום דמם ”
"ain chochmo v"ain tevuno neged hashem" it has nothing to do with indias incuficency "nistoros darkai hashem"
39
Nov 30, 2008 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:
“ Why couldn't they gas the place, and put everyone asleep?
Remember, Russia did that a few years ago when terrorists took over a theater. ”
and the gas killed many hosteges
40
Nov 30, 2008 at 08:23 PM sad jew Says:
“ and the gas killed many hosteges ”
not if israel or u.s. would have done the gas. they know what to use. ask any of their soldiers
41
Nov 30, 2008 at 08:29 PM Shame Says:
“ There is another point of view to all of this. No one denies that they died Al Kiddush Hashem. But the question remains that our Torah says NOT TO PUT YOURSELF IN HARMS WAY and when you build a shul between 25 million Indians and dont have any security, NOW ISNT THAT PUTTING YOURSELF INTO HARMS WAY?? Its all very nice to put a "chabad house" in a 3rd world country, but taking 2 young Yidden and exposing themselves with an "open" door and letting virtually anyone in, doesnt the Torah warn about that?? The Torah says " Watch yourselves, and Hashem will watch over you" and Yidden should live where other Yidden live, in a Yiddish community. Why isnt anyone addressing this? ”
Shame on you. Their bodies are not yet buried, the blood is still is fresh, and this all you have to say.
For your information, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER in the history of Chabad did this happen to any shliach.
This can happen anywhere.
Last week, the FBI issued warnings for the New York City Subway System.
Remember 9-11?
The London Underground?
It is highly inappropriate and very insensitive to the thousands of people in mourning to post this.
Shame on You!
42
Nov 30, 2008 at 08:59 PM Babishka Says:
“ Just FYI read this:India has suffered a gathering wave of Islamist terror attacks over the last five years, but it wasn't until yesterday afternoon that the terrorists really made the outside world sit up and take notice.
By targeting one of India's most iconic hotels, The Taj Mahal Palace on Mumbai's waterfront and holding hundreds of its wealthy foreign guests hostage, the Islamists have touched an international nerve at a delicate moment in the story of India's resurgence.
Despite the spate of attacks in recent years, including the 2006 train bombings in Mumbai that killed 180 people and bomb attacks this year in commercially sensitive locations of Bangalore and New Delhi, India has managed to retain its international image as a 'safe' place to visit and invest. As You can see there was a terrorist attack in Mumbei and if you check it out, it is very dangerous to live there! ”
New York City, Los Angeles, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Detroit all have high crime rates, so according to you Yidden shouldn't live there either, chuchem?
43
Nov 30, 2008 at 10:11 PM Anonymous Says:
911 happened in NY in the USA- not in a 3rd world country......
what chabad does by sending shluchim is amazing....if a jew has to go anywhere in the world be it for medical or business they all rely on chabad for kosher food, for minyan, for hospitality and warmth... (and im not lubavitch)
we are in galus and therefore we are not safe anywhere. we always need siyata dishmaya.
i can't either come to grips with the magnitude of this tragedy...and in the beginning i was also thinking that more could have been done to save some of the hostages- at least Rav Holzber Zt'l -since they say he was still alive untill almost the end...) but we have to face the fact that Hashem runs the world...and this was according to his will....for reasons we will never know...since we don't know Hashems ways....so there really can't be any blame....this is the way Hashem wanted it...Hashems ways are perfect yet the tzaar is extremely painful.. i have not been able to think of anything else but of little moshele holzberg these last few days... but i keep davening to Hashem to give this 2 year old (moshe tzvi ben rivka) a double nechama and all the brachos untill 120 BE'H and to all the almanos and yesomim.
May mashiach come very very soon! and may we all have a speedy nechama! and maybe then we will know why the rightous suffer. May we and the families only know of happiness forever!
44
Nov 30, 2008 at 10:39 PM Heimish Yid Says:
Well thats exactly the point! Last week the FBI issued warnings, posted high security in front of Shuls, Subways, etc. in N>Y> atleast we are on alert. However when you go to live in a country of 25 million Indians set up a "Chabad House" without any security guards, no Police guarding the Only Jewish Open House for miles and miles around , no Yiden, no Hatzoloh, No Shomrim, nothing! then YES IN TODAYS WORLD YOU ARE LIVING ON MIRACLES and placing yourself in danger. Whether any of you want to admit it or not. And if Lubavitch is sending another young couple over to India and dont make sure that they will have security watching over the "Chabad House" after what happened it would be irresponsible and placing them in the same danger again! Chas Vasholem, Hashem Yerachaim!
45
Dec 01, 2008 at 04:55 AM Going Mad. Says:
“ Well thats exactly the point! Last week the FBI issued warnings, posted high security in front of Shuls, Subways, etc. in N>Y> atleast we are on alert. However when you go to live in a country of 25 million Indians set up a "Chabad House" without any security guards, no Police guarding the Only Jewish Open House for miles and miles around , no Yiden, no Hatzoloh, No Shomrim, nothing! then YES IN TODAYS WORLD YOU ARE LIVING ON MIRACLES and placing yourself in danger. Whether any of you want to admit it or not. And if Lubavitch is sending another young couple over to India and dont make sure that they will have security watching over the "Chabad House" after what happened it would be irresponsible and placing them in the same danger again! Chas Vasholem, Hashem Yerachaim! ”
Im Hashem lo yishmar iyr shuv shukad shomer. Hashem watches us and Mumbay is not Iraq or Iran. Of course it's not the USA, but the USA is not what protects us, Hashem does. Put your faith in hashem, and his kindness will surround you. You do not bring light to the world by retreating but by bringing light to the darkest places. India is not a dangerous place, maybe not as safe as the US, but not a dangerous place. Israel is a much more dangerous, but we put our faith in Hashem.
Sometimes you can see hashagach pratus in a negative way, but still is hashgacha pratus. We are all wondering what happened in India, if it would happen in Africa, poland or some other extremely laid back country we wouldn't even ask questions, India is not a third world country as you claim. The fact that 10 terrorists were able to pull this off, tells you it what hashgacha pratus, hashem wanted them to die. Why, we dont know. All that is left for us is to cry on this terrible tragedy and ask that Moshiach come now so that Moshele, and all the other Mosheles' in the world, get to see their loved ones once again.
46
Dec 01, 2008 at 01:22 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Well thats exactly the point! Last week the FBI issued warnings, posted high security in front of Shuls, Subways, etc. in N>Y> atleast we are on alert. However when you go to live in a country of 25 million Indians set up a "Chabad House" without any security guards, no Police guarding the Only Jewish Open House for miles and miles around , no Yiden, no Hatzoloh, No Shomrim, nothing! then YES IN TODAYS WORLD YOU ARE LIVING ON MIRACLES and placing yourself in danger. Whether any of you want to admit it or not. And if Lubavitch is sending another young couple over to India and dont make sure that they will have security watching over the "Chabad House" after what happened it would be irresponsible and placing them in the same danger again! Chas Vasholem, Hashem Yerachaim! ”
I davened Maariv tonight with the shver of a Chabad Shliach in a nice civilized western country, Berlin, Germany. They have a guard with a machine gun at the front door.
47
Dec 01, 2008 at 01:16 AM Anonymous Says:
“ There is another point of view to all of this. No one denies that they died Al Kiddush Hashem. But the question remains that our Torah says NOT TO PUT YOURSELF IN HARMS WAY and when you build a shul between 25 million Indians and dont have any security, NOW ISNT THAT PUTTING YOURSELF INTO HARMS WAY?? Its all very nice to put a "chabad house" in a 3rd world country, but taking 2 young Yidden and exposing themselves with an "open" door and letting virtually anyone in, doesnt the Torah warn about that?? The Torah says " Watch yourselves, and Hashem will watch over you" and Yidden should live where other Yidden live, in a Yiddish community. Why isnt anyone addressing this? ”
Please put down your address the next time you post such a thoughtless, arrogant stupid comment so I can come over to your house and slap the $#!& out of you.
48
Dec 01, 2008 at 01:10 AM Anonymous Says:
Another thing that made this operation difficult for the Indians that this house is in a residential area. Many houses surrounding it... Although some sources say that they were attacked later, which I find hard to believe, it still took them very long to come and all night to attack. I cant even fathom what these victims went through..
49
Dec 01, 2008 at 12:45 AM use your head Says:
“ You are in a dream world if you think Israeli forces or American forces would have done a better job. Did India do a great job? No. Would any other team done a better job? No. The last time an Israeli tried to rescue a hostage it failed. Cpl. Nachson (hostage) and the Captain of the commandos got killed. This was with prior planning. Stop passing the blame on the Indian security forces. This is the first time in the world that terrorists carried out mutiple killing and hostage taking, simultainously. What you people should do now is demand your respective governments to start training their SWAT teams and commandos to start dealing with this kind of terrorist threat. To my knowledge no one in the world has trained for multiple attacks at the same time. We should learn from this attack and prepare if chsv's it would ever happen again. It's easy to play monday morning quarterback and say my forces would have done a better job.
It's simply not true. The only comment I can make is that American SWAT teams like to work in the dark, why the Indians needed daylight remains a question. Perhaps they don't have the equipment or the training for black operations. But they were wearing dark clothing which only makes them invisible in dark surroundings? Perhaps the uncertanny of the layout coupled with numerous hostages made them wait for daybreak. BTW, the comment that Indian forces killed the hostages isn't logical because the NSG director said not one of their bullets hit a hostage. They were taking every precaution to only shoot terrorists and that is why it took so long. Why make such a comment if it isn't true because such a thing will come out in the autopsies? And don't all you conspiracy theorists say he can control the autopsy reports; India isn't a dictatorship. ”
look at the structural damage that was no hostage rescue operation.
50
Dec 01, 2008 at 12:26 AM Anonymous Says:
"In the first wave of the attacks, two young gunmen armed with assault rifles blithely ignored more than 60 police officers patrolling the city's main train station and sprayed bullets into the crowd.
Bapu Thombre, assistant commissioner with the Mumbai railway police, said the police were armed mainly with batons or World War I-era rifles and spread out across the station.
"They are not trained to respond to major attacks," he said.
The gunmen continued their rampage outside the station. They eventually ambushed a police van, killed five officers inside — including the city's counterterrorism chief — and hijacked the vehicle as two wounded officers lay bleeding in the back seat.
"The way Mumbai police handled the situation, they were not combat ready," said Jimmy Katrak, a security consultant. "You don't need the Indian army to neutralize eight to nine people."
Constable Arun Jadhav, one of the wounded policemen, said the men laughed when they noticed the dead officers wore bulletproof vests.
With no SWAT team in this city of 18 million, authorities called in the only unit in the country trained to deal with such crises. But the National Security Guards, which largely devotes its resources to protecting top officials, is based outside of New Delhi and it took the commandos nearly 10 hours to reach the scene.
That gave the gunmen time to consolidate control over two luxury hotels and a Jewish center, said Sahni.
As the siege at dragged on, local police improperly strapped on ill-fitting bulletproof vests. Few had two-way radios to communicate.
Even the commandos lacked the proper equipment, including night vision goggles and thermal sensors that would have allowed them to locate the hostages and gunmen inside the buildings, Sahni said.
Security forces announced they had killed four gunmen and ended the siege at the mammoth Taj Mahal hotel on Thursday night, only to have fighting erupt there again the next day. Only on Saturday morning did they actually kill the last remaining gunmen.
At the Jewish center, commandos rappelled from a helicopter onto the roof and slowly descended the narrow, five-story building in a 10-hour shooting and grenade battle with the two gunmen inside.
From his home in Israel, Assaf Hefetz, a former Israeli police commissioner who created the country's police anti-terror unit three decades ago, watched the slow-motion operation in disbelief.
The commandos should have swarmed the building in a massive, coordinated attack that would have overwhelmed the gunmen and ended the standoff in seconds, he said.
"You have to come from the roof and all the windows and all the doors and create other entrances by demolition charges," he said.
The slow pace of the operations made it appear that the commandos' main goal was to stay safe, Hefetz said.
"You have to take the chance and the danger that your people can be hurt and some of them will be killed, but do it much faster and ensure the operation will be finished (quickly)," Hefetz said.
J. K. Dutt, director-general of the commando unit, defended their tactics.
"We have conducted the operation in the way we are trained and in the way we like to do it," he said. "
51
Dec 01, 2008 at 12:09 AM use your head Says:
“ mayhaychi taysi? how do you storm a large house and kill multiple terrorists before they have a chance to kill bound hostages? if you have an easy answer, you must be very smart. don't look to blame the indians, blame the cursed muslims. ”
ask the FBI, SAS, IDF, your local SWAT team, and so on. they have all done it multiple times.(well maybe local SWAT didn't have a chance yet. may hashem help they should never have.)
52
Dec 01, 2008 at 12:01 AM bp Says:
who waived the tzizis if everyone was killed by the 26th
53
Dec 01, 2008 at 08:31 AM Anonymous Says:
“ In New York and in Israel, special weapons and tactics (SWAT) teams often train for multiple simultaneous attacks. After a couple of top commanders were killed, the police and commandos may have been more cautious than usual. Certainly, to spend over 12 hours slowly attacking a house within which there are hostages, without any sort of ruse, and when the Indian media was broadcasting that India will not negotiate but instead they plan on killing all the terrorists (while the terrorists themselves could apparently listen to these media reports) suggests a level of unprofessionalism that should be of concern. Even in Munich, the German forces tried a ruse. In many hostage cases, a hostage negotiator establishes contact. Here, apparently only the Lubavitch rabbi in NY established contact.
There was also no evidence of a simultaneous attack, eg through windows, front door, and roof. Finally, they waited until daylight for their final attack.
Amazing. ”
Stop living in your TV world of great SWAT teams, they might train for more than one hostage situation at one time, but they never have done it. Those 12 hours were spent in battle with the terrorists because the terrorists were heavily armed. They could have done what they did in Phila. PA once and dropped a bomb on the place killing everybody inside. Instead the Indians lost commandos trying to save the hostages. What kind of diversionary tactic did you want them to use? The terrorists knew they were coming. When you watched those SWAT teams
on A&E, the criminals didn't know that they were coming. Gas also wouldn't have worked. The commandos knew these terrorists were heavily armed, so they probably had gas masks. So gas would only hurt or kill the remaining hostages. Stop playing Monday morning quarterback because your angry about the outcome.
54
Dec 01, 2008 at 08:42 AM Answer to your post on mine Says:
“ look at the structural damage that was no hostage rescue operation. ”
Most of the structural damage was done by these terrorists. The Indian forces of course tried to shoot the terrorists through windows, if you can kill them before entering that would have been best. But that's not what happened and there was at least one Indian commando causality at Narriman House. If they weren't trying to save hostages, why would they even enter the building? Read what I just posted about what they did in Phila.
55
Dec 01, 2008 at 08:48 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "In the first wave of the attacks, two young gunmen armed with assault rifles blithely ignored more than 60 police officers patrolling the city's main train station and sprayed bullets into the crowd.
Bapu Thombre, assistant commissioner with the Mumbai railway police, said the police were armed mainly with batons or World War I-era rifles and spread out across the station.
"They are not trained to respond to major attacks," he said.
The gunmen continued their rampage outside the station. They eventually ambushed a police van, killed five officers inside — including the city's counterterrorism chief — and hijacked the vehicle as two wounded officers lay bleeding in the back seat.
"The way Mumbai police handled the situation, they were not combat ready," said Jimmy Katrak, a security consultant. "You don't need the Indian army to neutralize eight to nine people."
Constable Arun Jadhav, one of the wounded policemen, said the men laughed when they noticed the dead officers wore bulletproof vests.
With no SWAT team in this city of 18 million, authorities called in the only unit in the country trained to deal with such crises. But the National Security Guards, which largely devotes its resources to protecting top officials, is based outside of New Delhi and it took the commandos nearly 10 hours to reach the scene.
That gave the gunmen time to consolidate control over two luxury hotels and a Jewish center, said Sahni.
As the siege at dragged on, local police improperly strapped on ill-fitting bulletproof vests. Few had two-way radios to communicate.
Even the commandos lacked the proper equipment, including night vision goggles and thermal sensors that would have allowed them to locate the hostages and gunmen inside the buildings, Sahni said.
Security forces announced they had killed four gunmen and ended the siege at the mammoth Taj Mahal hotel on Thursday night, only to have fighting erupt there again the next day. Only on Saturday morning did they actually kill the last remaining gunmen.
At the Jewish center, commandos rappelled from a helicopter onto the roof and slowly descended the narrow, five-story building in a 10-hour shooting and grenade battle with the two gunmen inside.
From his home in Israel, Assaf Hefetz, a former Israeli police commissioner who created the country's police anti-terror unit three decades ago, watched the slow-motion operation in disbelief.
The commandos should have swarmed the building in a massive, coordinated attack that would have overwhelmed the gunmen and ended the standoff in seconds, he said.
"You have to come from the roof and all the windows and all the doors and create other entrances by demolition charges," he said.
The slow pace of the operations made it appear that the commandos' main goal was to stay safe, Hefetz said.
"You have to take the chance and the danger that your people can be hurt and some of them will be killed, but do it much faster and ensure the operation will be finished (quickly)," Hefetz said.
J. K. Dutt, director-general of the commando unit, defended their tactics.
"We have conducted the operation in the way we are trained and in the way we like to do it," he said. "
”
Technically, Hefetz is correct. But even he can't play Monday morning quarterback unless he ever dealt with such a type of terrorist attack and he never had. This type has never occurred before. Practicing and doing are two separate things
56
Dec 01, 2008 at 02:03 PM Anonymous Says:
“ The Taj hotel is HUGE, there is no way they could have pumped in enough gas to disable the terrorists. Remember at the Moscow theater a lot of hostages also died from the gas.
Using gas would not have saved the Yidden, they were already dead from the beginning. ”
You only know that they were dead now. Also, why didn't they use night goggles? They kept saying that the dark was keeping them back...