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New York - Mumbai Is Calling, Will A True 'Gadol' Please Heed The Call! |
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You don't belong to any denomination or demographic. You belong to Hashem. We all do.
That is the message from Mumbai. That is the call from India.
It seems we've heard it. For at least a week.
We've realized that to the terrorists, we're all the same. They didn't attack "Zionists" or "anti-Zionists" or "Modern Orthodox" or "Chasidish" or even "not-so-frum." All of those were represented at that little house in Mumbai. They attacked the Jews.
They taught us that we're all vulnerable. That none among us are immune.
And ultimately, they taught us that there's no reason to fight among ourselves.
They taught us the painfully obvious—they taught us to have more, much more, Ahavas Yisroel.
We know it takes vigorous effort. Perhaps precisely because it takes such effort is why we received such a vigorous wake-up call.
We hope that the next major convention, whether Agudath Israel or any other worthy organization, will designate Ahavas Yisroel as its central theme.
We hope that various individuals who are preoccupied with court cases and personal agendas will bury their hatchets and take up the cause of Ahavas Yisroel.
The call from India is a call for action—and that call need not come from a towering leader. Let's remember that Yirmiya HaNavi was looked down at when he first appeared on the scene. He was not a gadol with a long beard. He was a plain and simple Jew.
Remember that the Chofetz Chaim was also an unknown when he started.
The Mumbai catastrophe doesn't just call for absolute Ahavas Yisroel. It also calls for good-old-fashioned leadership to push that Ahavas Yisroel. It calls for passion, for one humble leader if not several who know right from wrong and who speak out the real truth when needed.
Mumbai elicits our community's need for a true leader, one who rises to the challenges of the dor like the Chofetz Chaim in his lonely campaign against lashon hora. Once ignored, ridiculed and rejected, the Chofetz Chaim came to be embraced by all Jews—because they knew in their hearts that he was a true leader, not a media-manufactured figurehead.
Today, less than one week after the Mumbai massacre, we feel at one.
In this editorial, our goal is not to point fingers of blame at any one group or individual. Rather, it's to heed the call from India—the call for all of us, VIN News included to do what we know we have to do.
Let's hope that this spirit will still be alive one week, one month and one year from now.
Let's hope that we never forget the call from India—today, tomorrow and forever.
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Read Comments (54) — Post Yours »
1
Dec 04, 2008 at 02:23 PM mark Says:
am echad ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we are one
2
Dec 04, 2008 at 02:21 PM Chaim S. Says:
Well said. Hitler and for that matter all anti semites, couldn't care less whether a Jew is one chasid or another, whether he is Livish or modern, whether he is Syrian or Yemenite. If they don't carem why should we? These kedoshim werem't sungles out because they were Chabad or Satmar or Bobov. One reason: Jewish.
3
Dec 04, 2008 at 02:21 PM dreikup Says:
yes we're supposed to be b'achdus but that doesn't pertain to "kofrim" which we pray three times a day "V'lamalshinim Al Thi Sikvo".
4
Dec 04, 2008 at 02:29 PM WELL SAID Says:
Gut Gezugt.
5
Dec 04, 2008 at 02:26 PM Anonymous Says:
IM OIS MENTCH AND CANT GET BACK TO MYSELF OVER THIS TRAGEDY
I WENT TO BE MENACHEYM OVUL MY FRIEND MOSHE SCHVARZSBLATT WHOS SISTER(MRS RABINOWITZ) WAS ALSO ONE OF THE NEHRUGIM
ITS AMAZING HASGOCHO PROTIS (YES HASHGOCHO PROTIS WE SEE EVEN IN TRAGIC EVENTS)
HOW THE OIBISHTER BROUGHT ALL THESE UNCONNECTED PEOPLE TO SOME FOREIGN COUNTRY TO BE PRESENT AT THE WRONG(RIGHT)TIME AND BE MASSACRED
YES TRAGEDY UNITES US ALL TOGETHER
NO MATTER OUR BACKGROUND, POLITICAL AFFILIATION, FRUM NOT FRUM CHASIDISH LITVICSH YESHIVISH WHAT EVER WE ARE ALL YIDDEN IT UNFORTUNATLEY TAKES A MASSIVE TRAGIC EVENT TO BRING THIS HOME TO MOST OF US
WHY DONT WE LIVE EACH DAY KNOWING WE ARE ALL BROTHERS THAT R ACHROYEE FOR EACH OTHERS
THE TERRORIST KNOW WE ARE ALL ONE HITLER DIDNT DIFFRENCIATE AND KILLED EACH JEWISH MAN WOMAN AND CHILD KNOWING WE WERE ALL PART OF THE JEWISH NATION WHY CANT WE ACT AS ONE
IF THIS TRAGEDY CAN BRING US ALL TOGETHER TO ACT TO EACH OTHERS AS BROTHERS AND SISTERS IT WILL BE MEKARAV TO GEULA SHLAYMO WE ARE ALL CRYING AND DAVENING FOR AND BE A KIDUSH HASHEM AND ILUY NISHMOSO FOR ALL THE NEHRUGIM HASHEM YIMKOM DOMOV AMEN
6
Dec 04, 2008 at 02:38 PM Big Masmid Says:
Nice, we have all been saying the above in different ways, Right lets hope the Achdus will last for ever, helping us greet Moshiach very soon.
7
Dec 04, 2008 at 02:52 PM Anonymous Says:
I think the potential leaders that can bring 'Achdus" are currently overworked reviewing Kol Korahs regarding Charedi concerts and other important matter of International Frum Security
8
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:12 PM Anonymous Says:
What this article is saying in one word....MOSHIACH
9
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:19 PM well said Says:
this is what chabad is all about, of course they have alot what to learn, but thats what a chabad house is, a place for every jew no matter where you are from, to come together and pray as one. this is the theme of chabad, and it should be the theme of everyone. every jew should be welcomed to their home like rabbi holtzberg and his wife welcomed every person. thats all was the request from the lubavitcher rebbe tz"l - some may might know, but the view of chabad is what the rebbe said, not to make someone chabad. its to try to get another jew to do another mitzvah.
Thanks VIN, it starts here from this website. from our home!
11
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:05 PM Shmilfke Says:
Let's at least have Achdus in saying that we should all demostrate achdus.
12
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:21 PM Anonymous Says:
It's very sad that it takes a tragedy to unite us. We should all do a cheshbon hanefesh for this, and tell HKB"H that we'll unite for something else, that he should not send such horrific tragedies to foster achdus among us
13
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:
Atleats don't hate a jew your own brother let's start with that its not normal how the sinas chinam in the yidishe world let's stop that that's what's bringing all the bad on us we have to stop now all the rabbanim that don't talk to each others they should get together & show the world let's wait & see when that will happen that's gonna bring the end to the terror
14
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:55 PM blumberg Says:
amen bro
15
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:35 PM Anonymous Says:
The sad part is that the so called Gedolim don't have internet so they can't read this article. Maybe that's why they asserd the internet
16
Dec 04, 2008 at 03:30 PM Anonymous Says:
“ yes we're supposed to be b'achdus but that doesn't pertain to "kofrim" which we pray three times a day "V'lamalshinim Al Thi Sikvo".
”
today its very hard to classify anyone as a kofer as most non religious jews would be classified as as a tinok shenishba rather then an outright kofer biker
17
Dec 04, 2008 at 04:11 PM anonymous Says:
“ I think the potential leaders that can bring 'Achdus" are currently overworked reviewing Kol Korahs regarding Charedi concerts and other important matter of International Frum Security ”
let them finally be concerned with what is really important
18
Dec 04, 2008 at 04:21 PM chaim braun Says:
I feel the the same as 5.
I can still not get over it.
A chabtker a chasidisher a mexicaner... but for the Terorist they were all Jidden!!!!!!!
Zol shoin zaan der der geulah.
19
Dec 04, 2008 at 04:25 PM Anonymous Says:
You write "true Gadol" insinuating that our Gedolim are somehow false, why? Because you disagree with them? So let me see, a true godol is someone that does only what everyone agrees to? You obviously have no concept what it means to be mekabel on yourself a rebbe. Just remember in the times of Moshe Rabbeinu there was also a Korach. I assure you that if you were living in the times of the Chofetz Chaim you would have disagreed with him too. Do you know that the Chofetz Chaim held that teaching Polish in school was the worst thing possible? (There are many stories relating the lengths he went to, to repeal the gezeira) Imagine if that happened today, all the 'chachomim' on VIN will scream "we need a true godol"
Shame on you.
20
Dec 04, 2008 at 04:41 PM T S Says:
I support the overwhelming wish that unconditionally respect fellow jew and fellow man.
I don't get your point, though, of "...The Mumbai catastrophe doesn't just call for absolute Ahavas Yisroel. It also calls for good-old-fashioned leadership to push..."
In fact, I feel the opposite.
Only if every individual ON THEIR OWN accepts and absorbs and lives mutual respect for another and value of the other's life as his own, will the current global good sentiment be lasting.
Top-down leadership is ultimately temporary. Yes it can be inspirational and all. But it flames out. The everlasting state of peace is only possible if it is a grass roots, bottom-up process.
One by one. You. Me. Him. Her. Family. Block. Community. Group. Sect. Age. Gender. City. State. Country. World.
Peace.
21
Dec 04, 2008 at 04:35 PM old chabad Says:
“ today its very hard to classify anyone as a kofer as most non religious jews would be classified as as a tinok shenishba rather then an outright kofer biker ”
it dosent make a diffrence we have to stay away from non observent jews its a clear halacha
22
Dec 04, 2008 at 04:53 PM Anonymous Says:
“ yes we're supposed to be b'achdus but that doesn't pertain to "kofrim" which we pray three times a day "V'lamalshinim Al Thi Sikvo".
”
Wow! We made it all te way thru two respone before we found someone who is too frum for achdus.
yasher koach.
23
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:11 PM shloimym Says:
I do not know if the current leaders are real gedolim or not. What I do see and hear is that they are not connecting to us. If we are saying things like "will a real gadol please stand up" then we need someone that we feel connected to. someone out there should start talking like he means it.
May I suggest one of feuding leaders say "take it, I don't need it." or at least sit together and talk about making peace.
Another point.
for those that remember the murder of yeshiva buchirim in Mosed Rav Kook. We all said the same thing. Achdus.... We are jews... yada yada yada..... it was all talk. we all forgot and went back to the old ways.
Please let us stay jews Bachdus. When we see an unusual or new person just say hello
24
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:10 PM To #21 Says:
"we have to stay away from non observent jews its a clear halacha"
Stay away !?!?
Not a clear (or even unclear) halacha in any shulchan aruch I've seen.
You'll perhaps find certain instances where someone's level of public Torah observance affects one or two things of their domain.
But to say what you said is a perversion of halacha and the "Klal Gadol" of VeOhHavto Lerayacho Komocho and in fact smells like something some little devil guy with a moustache tried to get universally accepted as a truth about 70 years ago.
25
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:03 PM Anonymous Says:
couldn't of said it better myself ... "umee keamcho yisroel goy echad baretz"
Does "Ata Bechartoni" apply to one sect only ???
26
Dec 04, 2008 at 04:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I support the overwhelming wish that unconditionally respect fellow jew and fellow man.
I don't get your point, though, of "...The Mumbai catastrophe doesn't just call for absolute Ahavas Yisroel. It also calls for good-old-fashioned leadership to push..."
In fact, I feel the opposite.
Only if every individual ON THEIR OWN accepts and absorbs and lives mutual respect for another and value of the other's life as his own, will the current global good sentiment be lasting.
Top-down leadership is ultimately temporary. Yes it can be inspirational and all. But it flames out. The everlasting state of peace is only possible if it is a grass roots, bottom-up process.
One by one. You. Me. Him. Her. Family. Block. Community. Group. Sect. Age. Gender. City. State. Country. World.
Peace. ”
I so agree with you. Lets stop pointing fingers and start with self......
27
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:26 PM Anonymous Says:
everyone can be a gadol, all you need to do is do something unique for someone else. selflessly, and heartfelt like the holtzbergs h"yd \. then you are a gadol.
'
28
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:30 PM shegger Says:
its amazing to see that on a blog after all has been seen , and heard, there is still macholkees! godal this godal that!!!the emes is that the Agudah does not address these issues and neither do the chassidim( sy chabad) and neither do the litvish w. the I'm MIR I'm Lakewood i'm Chiam Berlin. everyone has the chiuv to be a excepting Yid an Am Yisroel , the halacha doesnt give exemptions to this class of JEw or that type of Jew a YID is A YID period. The gedolie Hador thru their so called shamosim or gabiaz or shlep shamassim should get all of Them together to come out w. a UNIVERSAL TAKANH which is already mind you in the TORAH to treat every YID the same w. love and kindness. then maybe just then the RSE"O will bring Moshiach bb"A
29
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:29 PM Anonymous Says:
“ yes we're supposed to be b'achdus but that doesn't pertain to "kofrim" which we pray three times a day "V'lamalshinim Al Thi Sikvo".
”
Who are you refering to?. we're supposed to be b'achdus but that doesn't pertain to "kofrim".
30
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:13 PM Anonymous Says:
To #3 (dreikup). Who exactly are you refering to, when you used the term "kofrim"?. Also, please define the word "kofer".
31
Dec 04, 2008 at 06:02 PM dreikup Says:
according to the rambam, a kofer is one who doesn't beleive in any of the thirteen "ani mamins". it is true that today most of the non-observing jews are "tinuk shenishbu" because they were not brought up with a proper jewish education.
32
Dec 04, 2008 at 05:57 PM Anonymous Says:
“ yes we're supposed to be b'achdus but that doesn't pertain to "kofrim" which we pray three times a day "V'lamalshinim Al Thi Sikvo".
”
You actually have to be very well educated to be a kofer. From the sound of it, you haven't even reached the level of am haaretz.
33
Dec 04, 2008 at 06:09 PM murray Says:
“ let them finally be concerned with what is really important ”
Important stuff?- you mean like whats on a billboard?
34
Dec 04, 2008 at 06:07 PM Anonymous Says:
“ To #3 (dreikup). Who exactly are you refering to, when you used the term "kofrim"?. Also, please define the word "kofer". ”
non observent jews
dosent belive in moshich
dosent belive in the yid gimmel ikrim
35
Dec 04, 2008 at 06:16 PM Moving to the left Says:
All this talk about achdus is a bunch of baloney! If people could say that we have to stay away from less observant Jews, then how can there be achdus? It's easy to say that we are united with our brothers who are like we are. The true test is to love ALL jews regardless of religious observance. As far as I can see, many of those writing comments could care less about ALL Jews therefore making this achdus thing just one big joke.
36
Dec 04, 2008 at 06:36 PM Shalom Says:
INDEEEEED !!!! I"m with you. I wish some one will take together one day all klal yisroel. and Every one should yell out the loudest he can. I LOVE EVERY SINGLE JEW !!!
No matter how he looks.
37
Dec 04, 2008 at 07:26 PM The Truth Says:
Well said VIN.
-What can we all do? What steps can we as individuals take to improve ourselves and our community?
- I suggest we all try to keep the halochos of Kovod Beis HaKneses / HaMedrash, by not talking in shul during davening. (The Chofetz Chayim says its an issur deoraiso to talk mudane things during davening.)
For the Klal in general, I think the mi-sheberach of the Tosfos Yom Tov should be more widely said. (It praises those who do not talk in shul - introduced by the during the gezero tach vetat", i.e. the Chmelnicki (sp?) massacres of 1648-1649) .
38
Dec 04, 2008 at 07:25 PM Anonymous Says:
The lubavitcher rebbe already called for achdus over 40 years ago chabad has been saying for 150 years
39
Dec 04, 2008 at 07:15 PM Anonymous Says:
“ "we have to stay away from non observent jews its a clear halacha"
Stay away !?!?
Not a clear (or even unclear) halacha in any shulchan aruch I've seen.
You'll perhaps find certain instances where someone's level of public Torah observance affects one or two things of their domain.
But to say what you said is a perversion of halacha and the "Klal Gadol" of VeOhHavto Lerayacho Komocho and in fact smells like something some little devil guy with a moustache tried to get universally accepted as a truth about 70 years ago. ”
keep calm the torah does say AL TISCHABIER LARUSHA
EIN SHOLEM LORSHIEM
look in r' Yonei you will see a clear halacha and he was way back
sorry
40
Dec 04, 2008 at 07:14 PM Litvak Says:
“ non observent jews
dosent belive in moshich
dosent belive in the yid gimmel ikrim ”
I remember that Reb Aaron (Kotler) ZT"L used to define "Kofer b'Ikar" in the following way:
Anyone who gets caught up in small issues and overlooks the Ikar issues is a "Kofer bIkar".
With all due respect, I believe you qualify.
41
Dec 04, 2008 at 09:18 PM Dr No Says:
Oh you are so right!
But let us remember one very important thing: as we try to become more unified, we (and VIN!) also have to stand up those who try to divide us!
That includes so-called unqualified so-called rabbis and askanim who seek to divide us with stunts in the style of the big event and the music ban.
We must also point out and put to shame the rabbis and leaders who fail to take a stand and call home the dogs when hundreds of people push and shove and will not let a community member rest in peace because the family paid to the OTHER SIDE
42
Dec 04, 2008 at 10:59 PM Anonymous Says:
I truly beleive that the Ribono Shel Olam orchestrated this whole Mumbai crisis to show us that all Yidden ARE b'achdus, and that He is proud of us. All the machlokosin that we hear of are from (I refuse to define them) people that only care for themselves. But that is NOT representative of Klal Yisroel.
We always were one, will be one, and will forever remain one Ad Biyas Goel Tzedek
43
Dec 04, 2008 at 11:33 PM Achdus is the way to go Says:
“ "we have to stay away from non observent jews its a clear halacha"
Stay away !?!?
Not a clear (or even unclear) halacha in any shulchan aruch I've seen.
You'll perhaps find certain instances where someone's level of public Torah observance affects one or two things of their domain.
But to say what you said is a perversion of halacha and the "Klal Gadol" of VeOhHavto Lerayacho Komocho and in fact smells like something some little devil guy with a moustache tried to get universally accepted as a truth about 70 years ago. ”
Just to add.... The same Hashem who chose to put your neshomo in a Satmar family or Litvish etc. also chose which neshomo goes to non-observant parents. Are we supposed to therefore, not get close to them. They are still part of one entity. Kol yisroel areivim zeh laseh. We are all hashem's children and just like you derive nachas when your children are all b'achdus, so does Hashem. With so many positive hachlotos for achdus, Hashem will surely give us the strength!
44
Dec 05, 2008 at 01:38 AM Anonymous Says:
“ Well said. Hitler and for that matter all anti semites, couldn't care less whether a Jew is one chasid or another, whether he is Livish or modern, whether he is Syrian or Yemenite. If they don't carem why should we? These kedoshim werem't sungles out because they were Chabad or Satmar or Bobov. One reason: Jewish. ”
And the islamic terrorists do not care if your a liberal, democrat, republican or have a belief system that is void.
All these islamic terorists want is to kill jews and then Americans but specifically they choose the jew.
What is amazing is the pure sickeness these terrorists had towards jews that actually were ncie to them and fed them a few weeks ago. It has been reported that these terrorists were at the Chabad to stake out the place and even slept there!
All these sick islamic terrorist pigs should be thrown into a fire or a cage with a few lions in it.
45
Dec 05, 2008 at 01:41 AM hersh Says:
since Satmar considered themselves the rightful and only real Jews with the only straight and halachdig mind, would you think that this message is for satmar as well. Oy Lerusha Oy Lishchinoy if there is so much Machlokes and people don't move out of williamsburg then you are all against the halacha not just the Tzionim
46
Dec 05, 2008 at 01:07 AM halacha Says:
“ Wow! We made it all te way thru two respone before we found someone who is too frum for achdus.
yasher koach. ”
What is your problem? I know your overwelmed but you cannot let emotions mix with halacha!!!! One may not have shaichus with a "kofer" and no!!!! We have no reason to be be'achdus with one.... No matter how you feel..under contrary....we must stay far away from them....as far as we can....and if you want "ma'are mekomos" then let me know and I will post em....for now go make peace with yourself and don't make fun of someone stating a open psak in rambam and shulcon urooch....bifrat if your Mr. Achdus
47
Dec 05, 2008 at 01:00 AM Anonymous Says:
“ today its very hard to classify anyone as a kofer as most non religious jews would be classified as as a tinok shenishba rather then an outright kofer biker ”
Shame on you.....do you realize you just insulted "all" of the "gedoilem" in klal yisroel? How do you expect to do teshuva? Good luck!!!
48
Dec 05, 2008 at 12:59 AM To #39 Says:
The discussion is not about Risho-im. The "perverse" statement about "staying away" was about the "non-observant" which includes tinok shnishba, someone who doesn't wear a kipah, etc.
(BTW the rosho is by the seder table too)
anyway. energy expended here in this exchange, is only productive if it increases brotherly love. For some reason the vast majority of exchanges here bring the venom to the top. Chaval. That's what sells.
Hopefuly the silent majority will be looking within themselves and then practicing in the real world (not [just] in front of the computer screen) a real, respectful tolerance of the other person.
Live and let live.
Do your best effort in Avodas Hashem and Bein Odom Lachavero. Really your best. Even if it means going agaist some natural tendency you've always done.
In your fellow man find only the good.
In yourself you do need to know Maalas Atzmo, but also your chesronos.
49
Dec 05, 2008 at 05:42 AM !? Says:
“ it dosent make a diffrence we have to stay away from non observent jews its a clear halacha ”
"it dosent make a diffrence we have to stay away from non observent jews its a clear halacha" from #21
i''d like to know where it says this halacha.
Im not trying to argue with you, i just want the facts so if there is a moker in Halacha pls post it. thanks
50
Dec 05, 2008 at 03:39 AM Kalonymus ShemTov Says:
This is an excellant editorial . . . except for the latter part of the headline: "Will A True 'Gadol' Please Heed The Call!" The problem is the very "idea" of tagging rabbonim as "gadoilim". This leads ineviatably to: MY GADOL IS BIGGER THAN YOUR GADOL. Ahseh lecha rav - not gadol. Once upon a time there was a rav who had one's complete respect - not as opposed to some OTHER rav, but simply because HE had our respect. My mother went to the shochet, brought the chicken home, cleaned it, and if there was a shaileh, I or one of my brothers brought it to the rav. He decided if it was kosher or treif. His decision was absolute. My mother did not ask him who to vote for or whether my sweater should have a zipper or else buttons. He was our RAV, not our GADOL. The use of this word should be banned.
51
Dec 05, 2008 at 09:12 AM Anonymous Says:
“ "it dosent make a diffrence we have to stay away from non observent jews its a clear halacha" from #21
i''d like to know where it says this halacha.
Im not trying to argue with you, i just want the facts so if there is a moker in Halacha pls post it. thanks ”
I can show hundreds of sources the place is not on the intrenet please consult with your local rav or morah derech
52
Dec 05, 2008 at 09:19 AM Anonymous Says:
I think that it says somewhere that in the time before Moshiach we won't have any real leaders. The important thing is that we yidden stick together and are united. We have to love one another in spite of our differences and do away with petty machlokes. I myself feel that I love all Jews and love being Jewish. I may have some personal gripes against an individual, but, not because one is Satmar or Lubavitch, or modern etc.
53
Dec 05, 2008 at 10:12 AM nochum Says:
“ yes we're supposed to be b'achdus but that doesn't pertain to "kofrim" which we pray three times a day "V'lamalshinim Al Thi Sikvo".
”
an nazi will kill a kofer too................... he is still a jew!!!!! if he can do teshuva that means he is still a jew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
54
Dec 05, 2008 at 11:05 AM Anonymous Says:
“ You write "true Gadol" insinuating that our Gedolim are somehow false, why? Because you disagree with them? So let me see, a true godol is someone that does only what everyone agrees to? You obviously have no concept what it means to be mekabel on yourself a rebbe. Just remember in the times of Moshe Rabbeinu there was also a Korach. I assure you that if you were living in the times of the Chofetz Chaim you would have disagreed with him too. Do you know that the Chofetz Chaim held that teaching Polish in school was the worst thing possible? (There are many stories relating the lengths he went to, to repeal the gezeira) Imagine if that happened today, all the 'chachomim' on VIN will scream "we need a true godol"
Shame on you. ”
You obviously forgot what happenned to Korach and his Chasidim..
55
Dec 05, 2008 at 03:51 PM Anonymous Says:
“ I can show hundreds of sources the place is not on the intrenet please consult with your local rav or morah derech ”
Hundreds of sources but not one is mentioned. Just write the simon in Shulchan Oruch, or in poiskim. You don't - because you can't!